BritishV8 Forum

Ken, could it be the liners as in the article two posts down?

The liners are where they should be.

Just been reading this thread with interest, I used to have a classic car restoration business and MG's were our main stay, we normally had 10 to 15 in the shop at any one time, we also used to put lots and lots of the Rover V8 in these and other sports and specials.
I can think of any more reasons why you should get this supposedly rocker or lifter click. Anyway don't worry too much about inlet valve stem seals, they go hard after a few 1000 miles anyway and it is common for them to break up and fall apart. Never used to fit them on exhaust.
I am not sure of the set up you have exactly form the descriptions but we used to have to spend a bit of time setting up the valve gear when any high lift cam, different rockers were fitted due to the machining tolerances being all over the place. The way we used to get a fairly reasonable pre load was with the use of shims under the rocker pedestals. With the lifters we used to squeeze the oil out of them, install the rockers and a set of shims, then to get an average  40 thou preload we would measure from the top face of the inner part of the lifer to the underside of the retaining circlip, using different size wire gauges. Hope that is clear, I'll try drawing if you like.
We would always get a discrepancy and never always get them to 40 thou but all near enough to run. These engines are so simple to rebuild and set up, we could put them together in a few hours once the machining is done, so either you problem is a very simple one a very big one.
Also someone mentioned the oil booster plate, be very careful and make sure you grind or machine a relief slot/passage in the casting between the 2 chambers, without this you will get over 70 psi with a new tight set up and it is possible to split the oil filter, happened to us a few times. We used to do this set up when the additional oil was needed for turbo charging.

Oil leaks in the inlet valley pan are common, clean everything, make sure faces are clean and use a nice bead of RTV sealant if you can't get the rubber seal to work.

Ken and clan, last call...Stethiscope, finger on rockers or ground each plug wire, while running. roverman.

Dave and Art,

Thanks for the input. Oil pressure does not exceed 55psi, cold start and hot rev. Every conceivable engine running diagnostic has been performed by at least 4 trained mechanics and yours truly. Plug wire are new and
work as designed. Spark plugs are new and all work. No exhaust leaks. No detonation. No missing.

An East Coast Rover Shop owner, who has a blog on his web site, specifically referred to the problem my engine is having, using very much the same descriptors and says the culprits in his cases were pistons. Either a cracked or collapsed piston skirt will cause the exact same phenomena I am experiencing. The pistons are coming out next Tuesday morning and they will be closely inspected and measured as well as the cylinder bores. Since everything else has been ruled out, I am hoping to bring this to a conclusion.

I have not given up on the idea of installing a Ford 302, though it would be more appropriate, politically, and
period wise to have the Rover running right and enjoying a thoroughly British hot rod.

I used to feel that way about it too, but I've come to appreciate an iron block SBB instead. Looks nearly the same though.

JB

The pistons and rods have been removed from the engine and there are no visible signs of anything that could be causing the noise.

However, everything has been sent to the local rebuilder to be measured.

The PO was mis-informed about the rebuild. It was not complete, nor was it a "blue print" job. All the cylinder walls had glazing and the pistons all had wear and scuffing on the upper and lower surfaces as well as carbon buildup along the un-visible piston surfaces. It appears that the "rebuild" was basically a refitting of rings, a very tight re-installation and re-use of the bearings, which showed a fair amount of wear to the copper layer. So, the PO got a "Pig in a Poke", as did I. I guess I should have taken the short block apart, but I trusted the word of the PO, who I have known to be up front and forthright.

All this is very disappointing, as you might imagine. So, once the rotating assembly is spec'd and the cylinders are checked for roundness, we will come up with a plan to either rebuild, look for another BOP or Rover, or move to Plan B: the SBF.

How 'bout a 300 SBB?

JB

Ken, no culprit to be found? Pistons,"correct" direction on rods(off-set)? No cam gear hitting timing cover? Crank thrust  and rod side clearance ok? Pressure check block ? Don't give up. Now you can build it right. roverman.

Ken

Sorry to hear you couldn't find anything, I am not sure if you have checked this or not but we once had a Jag XJ6 4.2 1978 in the shop that had a sound much the same as you describe. We had it to bits a few times and couldn't find a thing. It wasn't till the owner said he had just had a top end overhaul with new valve seats, guides etc we started to get an idea.

Took the head off, heated it in an oven to just above working temp and "clink" the valve guide dropped out.
It wasn't untill the head was really hot and expanded it fell out. During normal running it was moving and the valve was clouting it. Wasn't untill we pressed it out we could see the damage. We couldn't shift it normally untill very hot. The old guide had been pressed out and over size valve guides fitted but the machine shop had cocked up the machining and to compensate for a loose fit had knurled the guide to make it fit tight.

Just a thought mate.

If I could afford it I would come over and have a look but visiting the LeMans classic last weekend cleared me out of funds.

Don't give up.

David

Jim, Art and David,

Thanks for the input. The heads were dis-assembled and heated up in a head rebuilding shop. The rebuilder was familiar with the Rover aluminum head/steel valve seat phenomenon, but these seats did not move, even when pressure was applied. There is NO evidence of any of rotating assembly striking or hitting anything it's not supposed to. That said, it is impossible to see inside the engine when it's running, so...

At this juncture, the bogeyman may be living in one of the piston assemblies. Hopefully, I find that out this week, sometime.

If I decide to abandon the Rover/BOP power plant, I will be strongly considering and SBF; probably the ubiquitous carb aspirated 302.

Cheers.

I have a similar problem with my Ford 302. It was a new crate engine from Ford and made a loud tapping noise when hot from the first time I ran it. The noise apperas when the coolant temperature rises above about 210 degrees (it never exceeds 215 degrees). I have finally practically eliminated the noise by blocking off the exhaust heat passages in the intake manifold. The engine still reaches 210 - 215 degrees, but without the loud noise. I understand that the Rover has a water cooled manifold so this will not help you.

However, one possibility is a leaking exhust - header gasket. Have you checked the header and cylinder head exhaust sealing surfaces for even height and flatness?

Hey Ken, your said the bearings were down to the copper? If so they are badly worn and you have a lot of clearance. In an aluminum block that will make a lot of noise, far more than an iron block. When the oil gets hot and thin this could be the mystery noise. You also said a "tight installation" if you meant rings, possibly the gaps are closing when the engine gets up to temp. This would make the piston drag and exaggerate the bearing issue.

Update:

My response to Roverman's post on June 7 is below:

 Re: Rover 3.5L Oil Starvation?
Posted by: roverman
Date: June 07, 2010 08:32PM

Ken, Does this motor have a"retainer plate" on cam ? Thrust button ? If cam is thrusting forward, 8 lifters will have"reduced "pre-load, and/or chain, sprocket/etc. may be hitting. Good Luck, roverman.

I had sent the car to a local shot 6 weeks ago and the owner is very methodical and thoughtful. He put my car on the middle burner, so to speak, and went through the engine in minute detail. On Tuesday, he pulled the front timing chain cover and discovered that there is NO retainer plate on the cam; referred to by Roverman's June 7 post. Being a neophyte to this particular engine and assembling it from the boxes of parts the previous owner assured me was all I would need to accomplish the task, not mounting a camshaft retainer plate would have occurred to me.

All that said and done, I am still not sure this would be the culprit creating the noise that prompted the engine disassembly and this serial forum posting. The cam chain drive gear, eccentric fuel pump spacer unit and the drive shaft cam chain drive gear all certainly move fore and aft when pulled and pushed by hand. But, would there have been something between the hardened steel camshaft front flange and the engine block under the camshaft retainer plate? And what is a thrust button?

Ken since your engine,(3.5L) did not come with a retainer plate, I believe they first arrived on 4.0L's, you may retrofit. Installing a retainer plate will be considerable work.  A "thrust button", threads into front of cam shaft, rubs against inside of timing cover , and prevents excessive fore/aft movement. Best ones have a needle thrust bearing, so as not to wear the timing cover. Were this the "real culprit" on your engine, it could show "spark scatter", timing variation while holding a constant rpm. and monitoring with a timing light. As previously stated, this also reduces lifter preload on ( lifters,"possible clatter"? Of course fore/aft movement, increases timing chain and cam/lifter wear. Things wear better, in proper alignment.  Good Luck, roverman.

Art,

When tested and on the road the timing did not seem to be affected by the onset of the "noise" that is the topic of this thread. The engine revved fine, performed well and continued to perform well even with the noise.
There is no physical evidence in the timing chain area of movement or damage or wear. Also, when the crank shaft damper pulley is mounted the lower cam chain gear and oil thrower are nicely confined. I am running an all metal timing gear/chain system and it's new so stretching and wear can be eliminated.

The engine clattering noise seems associated with one cycle of one piston. It is not a noise that could be associated with constant rotation or whirring or grinding. Wouldn't a timing gear moving
around be associated with acceleration or load on the engine. This noise starts at idle once the engine reaches operation temperature. Like this on cold startup: nice healthy V8 rumble, a bit warmer, say, 160F; tick-tick-tick, 175F; click-click-click, 180F; clack-clack-clack, 190F; CLACK!-CLACK!-CLACK!

KEN

Ken, so you had pistons/rods out, new bearings, checked piston,pin,lifter and "all" bearing clearances? All pistons are indexed correctly on rods ? Rods indexed correctly on crank? Engine will make same noise at problem temp., not under load? Dupilcate problem noise,parked, with rear safely in air and applying light load with brakes, while listening with stethiscope ? I can't help but think, some of these suggestions are missed. roverman.

Hi Ken & all @ British V8. I've followed many good threads on this board & thought its time I joined in with advice that hopefully will help nail your problem.

As suggested by another member, I'd take a very critical look at your liners for signs of shift. Your recent post describing the noise increasing incrementally with temperature rise describes exactly what occurs when a liner moves. It may not strike the head & leave witness marks, but move up slightly & click when it hits the lower register in the block on the piston down stroke.

The alloy block transmits noise very differently to cast iron. Once I listened to a noise coming from the bellhousing area that you would have sworn was a loose flywheel or broken crankshaft. Turned out to be the very heavy water pump pulley mounted on 4 5/16 studs used on 84/85 model Range Rovers had fretted under the nylocs & was moving a few thou each way at idle.

One of the members here has a website with some good pictures of how they pinned a Rover block with grubscrews to secure all the sleeves so they can never move again.
I've been working with these engines on a daily basis since 1977. Fantastic powerplants when set up correctly!!

John,

On re-inspection of the tops of the cylinder bores I did notice that the #1 liner top edge was a bit shy of the
block surface(.003-.004"), something the 5 mechanics here do not think is an issue. After reading a number of posts on this forum about liners moving, it was clear that there were problems with the larger displacement and later model engines. I did not see any references to an early model smaller bore engine. I guess anything is possible. At this juncture, there are several possible culprits and a number of hypotheses about the source of the noise. Perhaps it is more than one thing and the result of some "perfect storm" of defects. With the engine apart and no large arrows pointing to exactly what the problem is or problems are, plus the fact that I have been attempting through various means to solve 'something' and move on since November 2009, I am 98% ready to throw in the towel.

Since I am clearly not experienced enough, nor are the local resources, to get this engine back on the road and since there is no clear cause of the noise, I have to make a decision about what to do next.

If I choose to "fix" this particular Rover 3.5L V8, as in, rebuild it, it seems that the cost could exceed what a complete factory rebuilt engine would run, with no guarantee that the "issue" would be solved.

Known issues:

• Scored and ovaled cylinder walls
• Scored pistons with one possibly cracked.
• Main bearings and rod bearings showing wear
• Possible excessive wear on the crank shaft
• Possible excessive wrist pin wear on one piston
• One cylinder sleeve top edge sitting below block deck
• Possible de-vulcanization of the harmonic balancer
• Unidentified source of loud engine noise

It would not be prudent to reassemble this engine with new or refurbished parts and hope the noise has
gone away.

When I bought this project, I got the proverbial "pig in a poke". In retrospect, I probably should have torn down the short block or had it done before final assembly and installation. I, naively, believed the previous owner when he told me the short block had a "blue print rebuild". I can only assume that is what he was told as I have known him for years and don't believe he would knowingly sell me a clunker.

That said, I know there are other "rebuilt" Rover and Buick aluminum block engines out there for sale, but
now that I have been burned by a "rebuilt" with no verifiable provenance, I would be insistent on receipts and a mechanic signed build sheet before I even considered purchasing it.

The part of this equation that is hardest to decide is: do I get another Rover short block or do I move on to
a warranteed Ford factory engine?

Thanks, again, to all who have taken the time to communicate your thoughts and advice on the subject.

Ken

I can feel your frustration, Ken!

I've seen this occurrence on plenty of "small" 3.5 inch bore engines. Probably more-so than later 3.7inch 3.9, 4.0 & 4.6 Litre ones which had their own drama's. Eg block porosity behind sleeves allowing coolant to migrate up the side of the sleeve & into the cyl/combustion chamber. Loose sleeves in early blocks seems to be more of a operator abuse issuse to me, rather than design defect. Virtually every time I've come across it, the engine in question has been driven home with a blown hose or failed water pump, rather than the driver pulling over & calling a tow-truck! Not saying you've ever been guilty of this, but who knows what the engines previous history is.

If I were you, I'd be looking for a late 80's Range Rover 4.2 engine. These are a stroked 3.5. Swap in your Cam, sump & pickup, timing case, inlet. A couple of head gaskets as insurance while you're in the area etc.
 Should be a very cheap intermediate fix & allow you some enjoyment out of the vehicle whilst deciding where to go next.
 No offence to those that have them, but for my money,the light weight Buick/Olds/Rover engine gives the car that "British" feel, which diminishes to some degree when a Chev or Ford is fitted. Furtherest I'd go would be a Buick 300 cast iron cousin like Jim B suggested. Plenty of scope there!

John,

Thanks for the post. Your supposition of a loose sleeve has the highest level of probability among all those offered to date.

After the heads were pulled, I pointed out the recessed sleeve on #1 to the 3 mechanics standing there with me while we attempted to assess the cause of the noise and none seemed impressed by the possibility of the sleeve being the cause.

In review, it makes good sense that a sleeve moving up and down wouldn't start to move until the engine was hot enough to expand enough to allow it. And, would stop moving once the engine was cooled again. Since I do not have a history on the engine, any number of overheating issues could have occurred.

For me, this is an Ah Ha moment!

Now, is there a fix or do I keep looking for a newer engine, as you suggest?

Thanks,

Ken

The last post on this thread:

I picked up the car, with the engine completely disassembled, and brought it to my home garage.

I'll use what parts I need for the next engine. I am staying with Rover.

I have also taken John Caine's advice and purchased a 4.2 liter engine. It has been cleaned and blasted,
cylinders honed with new rings, crank resurfaced, new bearings, new rod bearings, new freeze plugs, heads rebuilt with new guides and seals, new camshaft. Lifter, pushrods, rocker arms and shafts are original. Comes with an Edelbrock 4BBL, Edelbrock intake, new water pump and all accessory brackets and pulleys. The previous owner started an MGB GT V8 project a few years back and abandoned it when he found out all the modifications needed to install the engine.  I bought the engine from a local british car repair shop owner who was supervising the conversion and rebuild. Since I am only interested in the short block, I may offer the unused parts on the Classified section of this forum.

Thanks, again, to everyone who offered insight and advice here.

You can watch videos of assembly and installation of the replacement Rover 3.5 Liter V8 here: http://vimeo.com/kenzmyth/videos