Rover 3.5L Oil Starvation?

[v8ian]

To stop the dip stick poping out, weld or braize a small hook onto the tube about 2" from the top of the tube, and a similar one to the dipstick shroud, this allows you to hook a tension spring to the stick and tube stopping it popping out. shape the hooks so one end of the spring is used to retain the spring, and other made so its easy to pop the spring off when its time to check levels

[MGBV8]

"When the leak occured, the PCVs, connection hoses and air filter were off the engine."

Did you have the holes plugged?

[kenzmyth]

I finally got the Rhoads lifters in, replaced the silicone rubber valve cover seals with cork(that's where the left side engine leak originated as the seal would bow inside the cover as the cover bolts were tightened), pulled the engine and transmission to shim the HTOB, install a proper pilot shaft OilLite bearing, re-shim the motor mounts, align the drive train, and paint the headers with ceramic paint. It's all back together and ran for about an hour before the Lucas DLM8 died. I found an old Buick 300 distributor on EBay for 24.00, installed it, adjusted the points gap, reset the timing and the car runs well. It has 60# oil pressure at cold start, 40# while running down the road and 20# at idle. However, I still have more valve train noise than expected. A mechanic friend thinks there may be too much valve lash. So, I may have some overworked rocker arms or shortened push rods on a couple of cylinders. I was thinking that if I have to go at this issue again, I may as well consider roller rockers and new pushrods. As usual, I can't seem to locate either. Any recommendations?

[mgb260]

Rhoades lifters are noisier than regular lifters. See if you have shims under your rocker stands. Maybe thinner shims or remove completely. When valve is closed you should barely be able to turn pushrod between your fingers. Should have about .020 preload. Maybe try Smith's adjustable pushrods. Are your rockers in good shape?

[roverman]

Ken, if your still running "Rhoads", they will always tick. I'd shoot for approx. .03" preload(cold), lessens as motor "grows". Lash caps are a "much" easier way to increase preload. Good Luck, roverman.

[pcmenten]

Valvetrain geometry on a shaft rocker design is a bear. I think it's usually a matter of getting the rocker-to-valve stem geometry set up using shims under the rocker stand, or lash caps, then installing the right length of pushrods.

I have 8 leftover Crane variable duration lifters left over from a Chevy project. I think the Crane design is quieter than the Rhodes design. I might use them on the exhaust lobes of a Crower 50229 cam in my Olds 215.

[kenzmyth]

Thanks for the responses. The valve train noise I am referring to is a "clacking" sound; much louder than the lifter noise. We think it is excessive valve lash on ONE rocker/valve stem or a short pushrod.
On cold start there is no "clacking", just the nice Rhoads lifters clicking until the car warms up. It is not a continuous "clacking" as it goes away on deceleration and sometimes on acceleration. I have decided to take the car to a American Classics and Performance about 15 miles north in Petaluma. I hope to get the car up there this coming week.

[roverman]

Ken, If you can tolerate the oil splash, idling the engine with rocker covers removed, can be enlightening,I.E. bent push rod check, audible check and touch check. A skilled finger placed on top of each rocker, will tell the problem story. Push rods placed besides each other, between 2 straight edges, will help pin point short ones. Good Luck, roverman.

[mabie1978]

Very nice car, it is even in one of my favorite colors.  Even the hood scoop looks nice and I don't usually favor those.  Maybe you should just bring it to me.  

I have a Rover engine going in that is a new build also and we are getting closer so I will be sure to keep your post handy if we run into issues.  Of course I am praying for no issues.  Really love the car though.

[kenzmyth]

Art, Thanks for the post.

The latest is not much different than my previous noisy valve train issue. I took the intake and valley cover off, pulled the rocker assemblies. On inspecting the pushrods, it was clear that 8 of the sixteen were contacting the rims of the holes in the heads, two were quite polished in a band around the shafts. I bored out the holes in the heads by another 1/16". A preload measurement showed it to be around
.04"; right in the middle of spec: .02-.06". On visual inspection everything else looked excellent and new, as it is. After reassembly, installing a new Pertronix distributor and crossing my finger it started right up, sounded
good and responded delightfully to the throttle on my two block test drive. Then, the temp got to 190F and
the dreaded "clacking" returned, only louder this time!!!

I am taking the car to a mechanic I know who builds race engines here in town. Hopefully, he can get it sorted out. I am past the scope of my limited mechanical abilities and experience.

[kenzmyth]

Michelle, Thanks for the compliments on my car. Yeah, I think it looks good, too. I put the GT350 hood scoop on as I needed something to cover the air cleaner and it would have been on a Mustang of the era. I cut it down in length by about 4" and pop riveted it on. Gives the car a "racy" look, though I doubt I will ever get on the track with it. Good luck with your Rover build.

If I ever do this again:

•Fuel injected Ford 302
•Fast Cars front suspension with 302 engine mounts
•No fender flares
•Super clean, no rust repair needed Late MGB and do
the chrome bumper conversion
•BW T5 WC transmission, again
•Chevy S10 rear end

However, I probably won't do another MGB V8 conversion. I am enjoying driving my newly acquired,
1953 MG TD which has an MGB 1800cc engine, 4 speed transmission and tube axle rear end. The paint
is tired, the tuck and roll upholstery all wrong, but it looks good from 10 feet, drives great and gets lot's of
attention wherever I go.

[mgb260]

Ken, Did you reuse the old pushrods? Maybe one or more could have broken? That would make a heck of a clatter. I don't know why it would overheat unless the heads and/or intake manifold leaked. Did you retorque after warm up? Just trying to help you troubleshoot. I have had a few 215's,300 and 340 Buicks(similar).Also Buick V6's.

[roverman]

Is 190 F overheating ?  What deg. thermostat ? Visual  opening test, on the stove ? Oil pressure when that pesky clattering started again ? Jim, "It started right up and sounded good", not likely to have broken push rods. Ken, got an up-date?  roverman.

[Moderator]

Am I missing something? I don't know how anyone could call 190F "overheating". That's a perfectly normal operating temperature for many of us, and I'm completely comfortable with that gauge reading. (It's my personal belief that most people worry way too much about coolant temperature and would be better off if they didn't even have that gauge.)  Modern oils are happy at that temp. Was there some other symptom? Steam or coolant escaping or blowing into the crankcase? Otherwise... I don't see any connection between coolant temp and clattering.

[mgb260]

You guys are right, I didn't mean overheat,I meant the temp shouldn't be related to the clatter. Art, he said it got worse than ever after the 2 block test spin. I 'll have to reread my posts a little better. Been working  about 12- 12 hour shifts in a row,must be a little tired.

[roverman]

Jim, get some shut-eye, LOL. "These" motors tend to"open-up"more, than cast iron when , can I say, "warmish" ? Since oil throw-off increases to "square" of clearance increase, thats why I,asked about the oil pressure at clatter time-ok ? Jim, I'm glad ONE of us ,is rakin in the chips ?  roverman.

[kenzmyth]

I did install used push rods, but carefully inspected them for damage and found none. I have since replaced the first set with a different used set with no change.
I downloaded a Jasper Engines Technical Bulletin about rocker arm noise due to "hardened pushrod cups being insecure in the rocker arm". The car is now at a garage being evaluated by a race car engine builder. He is stumped, so far, but is leaning toward a broken or warped piece of the upper valve train. The "clacking"
or clattering noise is consistent with the timing of one component in the engine revolution, so it doesn't sound like crank, rod or wrist pin racket. There was some suspicious swarf in the oil pan, so I may have a bigger problem. The engine's PO claimed he purchased a short block rebuild that was "blueprinted". I don't have any
paperwork to confirm it, so... Pig in a Poke, huh?

[kenzmyth]

Update: The "swarf" turned out to be some fuzz, a bit of dried silicone scraping and some aluminum bits I drilled out of the heads. Nothing of serious consequence. My mechanic ran the motor from cold and it exhibited the same behavior; sounds great cold but when the temp reaches 190F a clatter-clack-not-quite-a-knock becomes audible and alarmingly loud. Oil pressure does not go below 18-20 pounds at hot idle and goes up to as high as 60 pounds at hot revving. The valve lash at idle was .006" or less at each valve stem head when hot. Rod ends, rod bearings and crank surfaces at the rods all look new on dis-assembly.

It is as though someone flipped a switch at 190F and started the mysterious, troubling engine noise. When the car is driven the noise disappers on deceleration, and sometimes at idle, reappears at acceleration, but not through the entire power band. In overdrive at 60MPH it will come and go with no discernible rhythm.

The mechanic is keeping the car for a while and has invited a couple of other skilled wrenchers to offer opinions before pulling the engine and tearing it down.

The saga continues.

[roverman]

Ken, one more time, finger on rockers? Stethiscope ? While clacking, pull, 1 plug wire, at a time. Automatic with sheetmetal flex plate ? End-play on crank/cam, ie. enough for/aft movement to cause noise ?  roverman.

[bigaldart]

Valve lash? with Rhoades lifters? Should be preload, there should be no lash clearance ever, these are hydraulics.

Alan

[roverman]

Ken, Does this motor have a"retainer plate" on cam ? Thrust button ? If cam is thrusting forward, 8 lifters will have"reduced "pre-load, and/or chain, sprocket/etc. may be hitting. Good Luck, roverman.

[kenzmyth]

I took the car to a mechanic I know who had three other mechanics listen to it run. After a bunch of head scratchin' and a visit to a local cylinder head rebuilder, it was determined that there was a strong possibility that a valve seat was loosening when the cylinder head temp got to operating level. The head rebuilder had worked on numerous Rover heads with this problem. The steel seat would migrate when warm/hot and reseat when cool/cold. At any rate, the heads are in the shop. I should have word on Monday or Tuesday
June 21 or 22.

[kenzmyth]

Here is the latest. The heads were disassembled, heated up and the seats and guides did not move when pressurized. I am not clear on the process, but I have no reason to doubt someone with a good deal of experience with head rebuilding when he says they are not the problem. Good news for the heads. Bad news is that the engine "clacking" noise may be coming from the block somewhere.The head rebuilder noticed that there were NO oil seals on top of the intake valves, so he is installing them.They will come back to me as "newly reconditioned".

A local Rover engine mechanic I know posits that it may be an elongated lifter bore as he has seen that on other Rover engines. That could account for the lifter being quiet when cold and then starting to rattle around in the bore when warm. Whatever it is, I have not gotten a solid diagnosis from 5 independent mechanics. At any rate, I am ready to chuck this power plant and go to plan B which is convert to a documented, warrantied, rebuilt Ford 302. At least then I can buy parts from just about any parts store in the US. The PO assured me this short block 3.5 Rover was blueprinted when it was rebuilt, but I now have serious doubts about it. Since I bought the project car two years ago, and he bought the short block in 2004, I just have to suck it up and move on. I will probably be parting out the engine, D&D bell housing, lightened flywheel, clutch assembly, etc., for sale on EBay.

[DiDueColpi]

Hey Ken,
Sounds like you've done the valve train thing to death. If this were in my shop I'd be having a real close look at your rods and pistons. A bent rod will make the noise that you are experiencing but should have shown up as a side load on the rod bearings. Or more probable is a wrist pin problem in the piston. Either the pin bore is worn or more likely damaged by a ham fisted installer. This will make the exact noise that you are hearing, quiet cold, loud on accel and quiet on decel. I go through this a lot on high boost turbo engines that detonate themselves right out the tailpipe. If you have the stock 3.5 pistons there is a good chance that a skirt is cracked or collapsed as well. Same noise different source.
 Hope thats more helpfull than depressing.
Fred
PS if you part it out we need to talk. My 907 headed rover v8 is almost ready to go and the lotus trans isnt going to like it.

[kenzmyth]

Fred, Thanks for the post. The heads are still off the engine and it is still at the shop. I will be talking with the mechanic today. We have discussed the two problems you relate to in your post concerning wrist pins and pistons as the possible source of the noise. He has been reluctant to do a complete tear down, though he has had the main and rod bearing caps off to look for signs of wear and found none. The pistons are stock and appear the same vintage as the block. It may come down to a complete tear down, soon. Ken.