Custom fenders

[GT8MX]

I need a set of rear fenders made for my Spitfire GT6 project.  I want them made out of metal.  I pan to cut away the entire outer fender at the door post and the top fender seam and reattach the new fenders.  I have a foam mockup of the fender shape that I want.

I have gone through the Forum but the threads are about flares.  I need to widen the body, not just flare the wheel wells.  I read Curtis' article about Weldone, http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Hammerforming-and-Planishing.htm and I am going to contact Weldone.  

Does anyone have other recommended sources?

Thanks,

Bill

[Jim Stabe]

I did what you are talking about on my MGB. I built the new fender over the top of the old fender and then marked the outline about 1/2" in from the edges to cut out the old fender. The top of thenew  fender is in 3 pieces and the bottom is one piece in front of the wheel and one piece behind the wheel. With cardboard pattern and some patience it is not as difficult as it might seem. You can use the pattern for each side by reversing the curvature of the piece. Don't use corregated, get some board that is similar to what cereal boxes are made of but heavier. I got mine from an upholstery fabric store.

You also have to make the inner wheel well and join it up to the outer fender at the wheel opening. You can see some pictures of what I did here http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581  scroll down about 2/3 of the way.

[GT8MX]

Jim:  Nice job!  That is a significant widening that looks classy.  That is exactly the type of thing I want to do, but I'm not going to widen the body, and I hope I don't have to extend into the doors.  But if I do, now I know how!  

Here are some pictures that show what I am trying to do.  The first picture shows the stock rear fender and the wheel hub of the new rear suspension extending to the edge of the fender.  The tire extends 3" beyond the fender when a large positive offset wheel is mounted.  Oops.  The 2nd and 3rd show a foam mockup of the fender that I want to make with the final wheel and tire.  

The issue is that I don't have an English Wheel or any experience with metal working, only welding.  Is it reasonable to assume I could learn the English Wheel quickly enough to get a decent looking fender, or pieces that can be welded together?  I'm not concerned about the welding and grinding, it's the shaping part that scares me off.  This fender has enough compound curves that I think metal forming with a hammer and bag followed by a plannishing hammer would probably be needed.

Maybe I should be pursuing composites instead?

Thanks,

Bill

[BWA]

You have a few options you can go the fibreglass route and you your foam buildup as a guide.  Take a look at how this guy did his fibreglass fenders on his TR6 (Cowboy Ray's 71 TRZ06 (Part 2) in the project journals.
The other way is to use the foam buildup as a guide and make a wire frame from 1/8" wire that matches the shape of the fender.  You then begin to create sheetmetal segments that have simple curves that you temporarly atttach to the wire frame.  The best way to weld these segments together is to tack them together with a mig welder then finish the seams with a tigwelder and a hammer and dolly as you weld up the seam.  Mig welding the entire seam is not advisable as it hardens the metal too much that you cannot properly hammer and dolly it afterwards.  
The second route is very time consuming but after you were done you would be an expert on metal forming and welding!!

Cheers
Byron

[Preform Resources]

Bill, get a harbor freight  English wheel and teach yourself to do it,there are videos out there to guide you along, google up'
Ron Covell,  the tin man, john glover, all metal working guys.
Dave

[Jim Stabe]

I learned a lot at these sites
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/index.php
http://allmetalshaping.com/

[rficalora]

I think if it were me, I'd smooth out the forms using more foam, bondo, etc. and use them to make moulds and then make the panels out of fiberglass.  It will be less effort and if the panels ever get damaged, you'll have the moulds to remake them.  Search YouTube for something like "foam quarter panel moulds for fiberglass" and you'll get a bunch of examples.

[Jim Stabe]

Oh Rob, where's the fun in that? Besides your arms will itch for days.

[GT8MX]

Thanks for all guidance from everyone.  I've been reading and mulling the responses and found myself bouncing back and forth from having steel fenders made, to forming them out of fiberglass, to forming them out of carbon fibre, to creating them from steel myself.  Being an old engineer, I was driven to making a "decision table" to help me sort out the options.  What I realized is that I should buy an english wheel, take a course in using it, and have at it.  

I did locate a place close enough to me where I would be willing to drag the car and frame to them, and they would build and attach the new rear fenders for about $1500, which was acceptable.  

If I made them out of either fiberglass or carbon fiber, I would have to make a foam mockup on both sides, pull a mold from them, and then layup the fenders in the molds.  Then I would have to figure out a way to attach it to the steel body so it wouldn't show cracks after some wiggling / heating and cooling - I wasn't sure I wanted to trust adhesives.  The carbon fiber would have a neat cool factor, but I would paint it anyway and weight is not a priority for me.  Both fiber glass and carbon fiber would be messy from the resin and sanding.

Buying the english wheel and other metal shaping stuff may cost me about $1000, and I want to take a class / workshop to kick me up the learning curve, which will be another $1000, and this will introduce a two month delay to align with a class schedule, but what finally swung me to the DIy decsision is that I have a "passle" (as in several) other sheet metal pieces I need to make - firewall, trans cover, rear suspension cover - and what I learn can be applied to these as well.  I don't want to be making these pieces out of fiberglass or carbon fiber, and I don't want to turn to a third party to get all this stuff built.

So I think y'all have guided me to an answer, even though it wasn't the one I was suspecting when I started this thread.

So now I'm off to find a metal shaping class that fits my needs.  I know some can learn all they need by watching videos and reading, but I need hands-on tutoring.  I can be made aware that something is possible from a video or from reading, but I have to do it to internalize what I've heard and seen.

Again, thank y'all for ringing in.

Bill

[Jim Stabe]

Bill

don't forget to check out the links I posted above. Lots of friendly and helpful metalshapers on there to get you started and help you along. It does get addictive and you will want good equipment. Check the websites for english wheels for sale or help in building your own. That's what I did.



The frame isn't difficult and you can buy really nice anvils. PM me before you buy anything and we can talk so you don't make the same mistakes I did on my first one.

[GT8MX]

Wow!  I doubt I would try to build one.  It would never come out as nice as that.  I will buy one *after* I have taken a workshop.  I've already been warned not to be seduced by "cheap" and get a Harbor Freight english wheel. I'm currently shopping for a workshop that fits my shcedule.

[Preform Resources]

Jim, that's a pretty serious English wheel you got there !! but I'm not surprised lol, true the HF wheel is wimpy but the parts Bill wants to make are not very complicated and  for $300. it would be a start AND you would get the rollers and anvil to go on to build a better one ,otherwise  one would have to work slowly with the HF piece, Hell you probably have $1000. in material alone in that beauty of yours !
Dave

[Jim Stabe]

The HF wheel will work fine for smoothing the bumps after doing the forming on a shot bag. When you actually try to do the stretching on the wheel it doesn't work as well. The frame is really flexy and the anvils aren't very concentric with the bearings so it is a little lumpy. The flexy frame helps out with the concentricity issue but it makes for slow going, especially in steel.

[roverman]

Almost ashamed to admit, I have a HF, springy-thingy.  Plan is to ad more triangulation + possibly concrete inside. Wheel concentricity fixed by re-maching id. or od. ?  It's on my bucket list to actually "use this", some day.  Cheers. roverman.

[Jim Stabe]

Art

There are a couple issues with the HF wheels: the bearing bore diameters are inconsistent causing the bearings to be compresses and run rough sometimes, the OD is not concentric with the bearing bores causing inconsistent pressure on the metal. The inconsistent pressure is a non issue with the HF frame because it is so flexible but in a rigid frame it can be a problem. I bought a set of HF anvils on sale and with a 20% coupon but what I did was put each anvil in the frame they had on the floor and checked it for out of round by rotating it right next to the upper wheel and watch the gap between the two. I had about six sets open and hand selected the best bearings and lowest runout for each size. I made an axle that adapts them to my machine and only use them on small pieces when my 3" wheels are too wide. The wheels are pretty hard so you would probably need to grind rather than turn the OD to reduce the runout. The wheels are also full radius rather than having flats at the contact point but trying to grind flats will create a flat area of varying width due to the runout issue - better to keep them full radius but makes truing the OD more difficult.

Concrete won't make much difference in stiffness. You would be better off making your own frame. Make a 26" throat frame from large section rectangular tubing - mine is 4" x 8" 1/4" wall. The large section is what gives it the rigidity and you need it to be stiff both vertically AND horizontally.

[Preform Resources]

Jim, I wonder how the hell they got so much runout while machining , given they had to start from the part centered ?! or maybe they did the OD grinding first then had to pick up the center for machining the bearing  seats? I too have an HF setup ,still in the box.
Dave

[Jim Stabe]

Beats me Dave. All I know is that when I spun the wheels under the upper the gap would increase and decrease. Maybe they distorted in heat treat?

[TR6-6SPD]

Bill,
Please keep us informed on your progess. I'm in the same boat, having to fabricate entirely new rear fenders due to an over abundance of wheel and tire:


Ken

[Jim Stabe]

Ken

You should be able to make some really nice fenders for the Jag, sort of a huskier version of the stockers. Start them back by the tail lights and finish them up in the doors. You have a nice body line at the top of the fender to come off of. That will be one sweet Jag when you finish with it.

[DiDueColpi]

Holy crap Ken!!
You're my new hero.
You've taken the sexiest car in the world and made it more.....you know.
I think I have hair growing on my palms?

Cheers
Fred

[TR6-6SPD]

Jim,
I took some photos of Richard Maury's 1971 XKE Coupe last June when I was in Richmond Va. He had a body shop rework his fenders to fit some huge tires. I actually called the body shop and spoke to them about it. I think I have a plan but I'll never refuse advice.
Here are some photos of Dick's car:








Fred,
LOL. You break me up sometimes.
I'm building the car mostly to piss off the purists.
Ken

[Jim Stabe]

That is exactly what I was trying to describe. Those are gorgeous flares. Be sure to preserve the wheel arch shape like he did. Like to hear what your plan is.

[MGBV8]

Wow, that is one sexy ride!

[pspeaks]

I've always been an E-Type lover, even have a cat named E-Type.


Paul

[GT8MX]

I've been silent for a couple of months, but I took Jim's advice and I called several folks that offer workshops and finally settled on Jere Kirkpatck.  I found him through one of the links Jim recommended: allmetalshapers.com  Most of the workshops / classes were either demos or were scheduled too far in the future.  
I just completed a metal shaping class with Jere Kirkpatrick at Valley Forge & Welding in Willits CA http://www.jerekirkpatrick.com/class-outline.html.  There were supposed to be five students, but there were only three of us.  I recommend it for a noob like me.  It was excellent.  
Jere has a lifetime (literally) of experience metal shaping and presents it in a warm, humorous, logical manner.  He is careful not to move on until everyone has all their questions answered.  He encourages questions, and does an excellent job of answering them.
Jere gives you the knowledge to understand the methods to use (there are choices, of course) and to select the tools that will be sufficient, and more importantly, to avoid those tools that are attractively priced, but will cause constant frustration and wasted time. For instance, he showed how he re-built - completely - a HF english wheel to make it usable.  He even turned the dies to remove runout and replaced the bearings.  He uses HF as a source of materials, not tools.
If you can, I recommend you purchase at least one extra day so you can spend time with Jere on your project to get his guidance and get some hands-on experience doing what he has introduced the previous two days.  It really helps to pull all the information together.  Jere is patient and judicious.  He doesn't hover over you.  He lets you make errors and only speak up if you ask or he sees that what you are doing will lead to a train wreck.
Ask Jere about his time at Shelby American and the DragonSnake.    Fascinating.
I brought home a marked up layout for my fenders and practiced making templates along station lines.  I brought back a hood scoop I made that I don't have a plan to use, but it required a little of of lot of skills and is just plain cool!
I also brought back a Cobra/Henrob/Dillon welding torch, slick gas saver device, and a deep-throat tucking fork (I disavow all responsibility for you being arrested by saying this incorrectly in public).
Now I need to make room in my garage for new toys like an english wheel and bead roller.  Dang.