BritishV8 Forum

Jim, he put the Serp belt assembly in his maroon roadster, he also had the yellow gt. I talked to him a while back, I believe he sold both cars but could be wrong.

QuoteRover 4.0 project restart after 3 years
Posted by: galotis
Date: June 05, 2018 04:10PM

Hey guys, I am starting up an old project, installing a 4.0 rover in a LE MGB, started this 3 years ago, owner couldn't finish it then, but can now, two of the problems I was working on when I left off was what front cover to use and how to get more clearance for the oil take off ports. this will be an EFI motor and the plenum and intake have been shaved to clear bonnet. Owner wants AC so will need to find the brackets to mount the compressor and the alternator. taking suggestions..

QuoteRe: Rover 4.0 project restart after 3 years
Posted by: 88v8
Date: June 06, 2018 04:31AM

If it helps with understanding where you're already at, I'd continue the old topic.

So, is that a crossbolt block with a P6 cover?
Someone has a made a new cover, umm, John Eales... here it is... scroll down... any use?
[johnealesroverv8.co.uk]

Ivor

Threads are now merged (in a funky manner), George.

It would be helpful to know what front cover you are using.

Carl, the present front cover is the original that was on the 4.0 motor when pulled out of the range rover.  I know the plenum cover is a 3.9, I am using that to clear the hood, the 4.0 cover is flat and wont clear with out milling more off then reasonable.

It is a 4 bolt main.

I would like to keep the original cover only due to the cam sensor is in it, and I need a cam sensor for sequential injection. If there is a better cover that also has a provision for a cam sensor and better clearance for oil ports then that would be ideal.

I looked at the one from John Eales, not sure if I can tap it for a cam sensor, anyone know?

Thanks for merging the two treads.

I'd ask John Eales, he's very helpful.

Ivor

George, I think you should stay with the newer front cover if you can. Probably it can be modified if needed. The water pump can be driven by either side of a serpentine belt so the serp belt can be used with either late or early covers.

Now the old style cover can also be used. For instance, on my 340 I have a VR pickup mounted in an aluminum block that bolts on with the old fuel pump bolts. The trigger wheel is a row of 1/4" holes drilled in the lower pulley.  With your flywheel trigger you wouldn't need that. The cam sensor goes in the distributor hole and drives the oil pump. I modded a distributor to make one but you can use one from a Buick V6. Not cheap, though maybe you could find a better price:
https://www.amazon.com/SU164-Engine-Camshaft-Position-Sensor/dp/B000C98W3Q

Jim

All you need  is a single pulse per cam revolution George.
That means that any of the covers can be modified easily to accommodate that.
So pick a cover that works for your oiling and cooling and worry about the pickup after.
You could modify an old distributor with an old cover like Jim did. Utilize a newer cover with the sensor already built in. Build a wheel for the cam gear or drill it for a single pin and set up the Eales cover to read it. The fuel pump cam is fair game as well.You could even drill a valve cover and mount a sensor to read a single rocker. The megasquirt will accommodate pretty much any signal that you give it as long as its only once per cam revolution. The only caveat is don't have the crank sensor missing tooth and the cam pulse line up together.
This can cause sync. errors.
 I've never experienced the problem but I hear that it happens.

live like you mean it
Fred

thanks guys, will email Eales and see. will post what I decide.

I'm working a similar build, only much more slowly.  I think you're already a bit ahead!

I test fitted my 4.6 with T5 trans, and I concluded the stock front cover would fit.  The latest style cover wasn't as thick as the interim style that still had casting dimensions for a distributor, so the water pump sits a bit closer in.  

The challenge is the oil filter.  You can take off the factory 70-degree elbow and fit a remote filter cap, I think/hope.  It will be very close.

I would not be afraid to do a bit of cutting and TIG welding to modify the filter mount on those. You're quite a ways from the pump cavity. I think you should be able to put it just about anywhere you like.

Jim

I just realized you're already facing the oil filter close tolerances problem.

I have looked all over for a bolt-on solution to give more remote oil filter clearance, and have only a few ideas:

There's one remote filter maker that has the two hose ports going 90 degrees from the filter screw post, and offset. One is centered on the cap, the other is to the side of it.  I was thinking I could use that, rotate it 90 degrees so the ports face the right wheel of the car, then use hoses with elbows, giving maybe another 1/2" of clearance near the rack.  I can't find the exact piece, but you could start with these and cut/fabricate a bit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-1731

https://old-stf.com/products/lowbrow-filtromax-motorcycle-r-harley-chopper-remote-oil-filter-mount-universal

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/engines/230865-remote-oil-filter-kubota-diesel.html

I'm hoping to find an OEM part that has a flat face I can drill to match the factory elbow screw holes, but so far I've struck out.

I'm trying to avoid customizing the cover, since it's a wearable item.

The 4.0/4.6 cover also has brass plugs for an optional oil cooler. it may be possible to use one or both of those as the "in" or the "out" for the remote filter lines, allowing a lower profile custom cap on the stock filter location.

Found it!

Look at the Rover/Buick v8 reference halfway down the page.  I'm not sure, but it looks like part "I" is a bolt-on piece using four screws.  Not sure if the pattern matches the 4.0/4.6 though, might be for 3.5L engines.

Alternatively, part "P" rotated 90 degrees toward the wheel will give you a bit more room, I think.

http://www.mocal.co.uk/products-octakeoffs.html

Yeah, "I" is for the 215/3.5L cover and is a lower oil pump cover.

You might be able to use banjo fittings for a tight 90* bend. They should be available to fit whatever threads you are working with.

Jim

I finally got a close & greasy look at my 4.6 this weekend, and I think you can skip all aftermarket angle pieces for a remote oil filter.

The two large bolts on the front cover above the oil filter are each tied directly to an "out" or "in" oil passage in the front cover.

I think braided hoses will screw right into those bolt holes.

Then blank off the original filter location using a drain plug or bolt with sealer to seal off the center passage, and an aluminum plate with 4 holes and some gasket material to match those on the machined surface that used to mate with the 70-degree elbow.

Clearance problems solved!

Dave, I will look the two bolts, and see if that will work, thanks for all the input.

You're very welcome, glad I could contribute.

I'm still googling the problem, and I think the bypass bungs on the 4.6 cover are M20x1.5 threads.  There's cheap AN12 adapters available.

According to this thread on another board, https://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4670 , be sure to check the bottom bolt closely, I think the Rover oil filler hoses that used those holes had a special fitting on the bottom hole to fully block off the internal passage.

Another possible option (I've not seen it actually done, but it looks good) is a Buick 3.8 v6 cover from the late 1980s;

http://www.aamidwest.com/enginequest/timing-covers/

Look for part #s TC181C and TC181D, using the crank-driven oil pump.  One of them has an inverted u-shaped oil filter adapter that likely fits right over the MGB steering rack.  Would be an elegant answer for a 4.6 megasquirt setup, if it all fits. You may have to buy the later style Buick splined oil pump gears separately.  Likely also requires a Buick 215 oil pan, or Rover SD1 oil pan to match the front cover bolt holes, but that gives you more ground clearance anyway.

Dave,

That TC181D is an interesting possibility. Would need a water pump to fit it, possibly different rotation? Also not sure what that opening below the water pump is for. Anyone ever tried match one up to the Rover?

Sadly, I can't help further.  I don't think anyone has put that style of Buick cover onto a 4.0/4.6.  I expect the water pump would be different, but probably very cheap and easy to find.

Google " Buick v6 timing cover gerotor oil pump crankshaft," or some combo of that, and some Buick-specific threads will pop up.  A few guys have welded two different covers together to make a gerotor pump cover with a distributor boss, and some other guys have retrofitted Series II covers onto series I blocks.  Based on the oil-passage discussions in all those threads, I think it all could work with some minimum fabrication.  There may be one oil passage off a bit, but I'm not sure.  Buick changed its block casting in 1988-ish, rebranding it from the "3.8" to the "3800."  I think the timing cover above is for the LN3 vin "c" engines, one of the last 3.8s, but I'm not sure.

I can't tell from the internet if there would be an issue with the oil pump drive keys, crankshaft length, or space for timing chain.  It looks like one set of Buick pump gears would mate with a rover crank.  Presumably the later rover cranks are long enough, and others have used spacers to seal any gaps between non-stock rover covers and later cranks.  Some of the Buick guys mention timing chain clearance,  but I'm not sure of those details.

I did all the digging for these covers hoping to find a non-Rover timing cover with a distributor and a gerotor oil pump, but I'm now pretty sure that Buick didn't make one.

The Rover 3.9 interim cover puts the oil filter flange in a bad spot, so bad that you can't drop one into an MGB without moving the rack first.  I was hoping Buick would be the solution.  

If you're not looking to experiment, I'm thinking a remote filter off the 4.0 cover is the way to go.

I really need to hop on this site more often.

So to solve the oil filter issue I just found a cheap "universal" remote filter adapter that was the right size. I placed the remote filter in the very front of the passenger front wheel well. It should be out of the way enough to be safe, it's not far from the engine, and replacing the filter for an oil change should be easy.

I'll see if I can get some pictures up in the next day or two.

I also just finished the alternator setup (Ford 4G 130amp) and serpentine belt yesterday. The Ford 4G alternator from a V8 Explorer that was a junkyard pick and ended up working even better than I could have hoped do to its mounts and short length. It sits on the front of the cylinder head, I fabbed up a mount to put the stock tensioner on the other head and the belt routing spins the pump the correct way. The only thing I dislike about it is I can't find a 7-groove pulley for the alternator so I'm running a 6-rib belt. Worst case scenario is I have a custom pulley milled, but I don't want to spend that kind of cash right now.

A new problem I'm now running into is the coolant hoses. The GEMS P38s had the stupidest coolant system setup I've ever seen with a weird thermostat/multiple hose junction pod. The intake does have a legacy spot for a traditional thermostat in the housing, but I'm not sure how all the hose routing is going to work. Also does anybody know if someone still builds a swivel thermostat housing? Or does anyone have one laying in the garage that they'd part with?

I'm quickly approaching the point where I'm going to be wiring up the MS3 and setting that up. Gonna need Curtis to hold my hand through that.

"Gonna need Curtis to hold my hand through that."

Are you aware he no longer resides in Colorado?

>Are you aware he no longer resides in Colorado?

Well that's gonna make things a bit more inconvenient.

Some pics:

Looking in the wheel well you can see the filter relocation adapter above the steering and the hoses coming out into the wheel well


Which lead to the remote filter tucked safely away. If it seems like it's getting too dirty or anything I'll fab up a little sheet metal shield to protect it more, but I think it'll be fine.


And a view from above, you can see the hoses down there. Also shows the Ford 4G alternator and serp belt.


I looked through all my emails and stuff but I couldn't find which exact part I ordered for the filter adapter. I think I got it from Summit Racing. I just looked up the threads for the filter and found an adapter that matched and had in & out ports on the same side. The one I used in particular also had 2 ports opposite and came with block off plugs.

With no more load than the alternator and water pump that will probably work OK, but for future reference please take note that the tensioner is in the wrong place, in fact nearly the worst place possible. It should be on the slack side of the belt, just before the driving pulley (crankshaft) with the pivot outside and below the tensioning pulley. That way it applies the most tension to the loosest part of the belt. Yours could loosen under rapid acceleration, but chances are good it'll be alright. You should check it by winging the throttle open a few times. If the belt does jump grooves at some point you will know where to look.

Jim

Hadn't thought of that. I'll play with it when I get it running and if need be I can put an idler pulley there and move the tensioner.