BritishV8 Forum

Anybody got a lifter preference for the Crower 50233:

INTAKE:     Duration: 280º  Lift: 0.49
EXHAUST:    Duration: 286º    Lift: 0.5

If I were you Id buy them with the cam.. I believe there are only 1 or 2 companies manufacturing hydraulic lifters anymore... and there have been a rash of failures reported.. so Id definitely follow Crowers' break in instructions.

So get Crower lifters then. Back when I was building the Dodge turbo it was beneficial to go with the high RPM low pump up lifters. Not that I'm going for that with this engine but just in case.

What about these?

http://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/VFlatTappet.html

They bleed off at low rpm.. The theory is that they would tame down the idle characteristics of a racy cam. They make a distinct ticking noise like a loose rocker... but muffled a bit.

I bought Crower lifters to go with my Crower cam. Good looking convex lifters.

The Rhodes lifters do work but they tend to be noisy and really should be used with an adjustable valvetrain so... you were planning on adjustable roller rockers right? ;-)

Jim

> The Rhodes lifters do work but they tend to be noisy and really should be
> used with an adjustable valvetrain so... you were planning on adjustable
> roller rockers right? ;-)

David Vizard has tested the Rhoads lifters and says the do bleed down at
lower RPM but they never really stiffen up as much as a standard hydraulic
lifter.  He much prefers the Crane "semi-leakdown" lifters which bleed down
less and are quieter.  If you think about the dynamics of a valve train,
a lifter that bleeds down in time will cause the closing ramp to be missed
and the noise means more impact noise.  That can't be good for the valves,
seats, cam and lifters.  Kenne Bell presented drag test results which showed
no difference in 1/4 mile times between standard and Rhoads fast bleed
lifters.  They recommended using them only on race cams to smooth out the
idle for street use but warned the lifters bleed off oil pressure so a booster
plate and/or longer oil pump gears are required.  You do not want to use them
in an engine with high compression and minimal overlap.  When building an
engine from scratch, high compression can offset the loss of low end torque
from a long duration cam without the drawbacks of variable duration lifters.

The previous owner of my TR8 installed Rhoads lifters in my engine, along
with a Crane H-216 cam.  He used adjustable pushrods to set pre-load but
I don't think he got it correct.  I didn't like the noise and pulled them
out to replace them only to find the lifters were all flat on the bottom.
The cam looks fine but I decided not to chance it and ordered up a new
cam better suited to my engine.
 
Another important decision with that cam is valve springs.  You need something
that will handle the lift without coil binding and have enough but not too
much seat pressure.  The Federal-Mogul/Speed Pro VS1615 (aka TRW VS966)
valve springs are what D&D recommends for their Crower 50232 cams and say
they raise valve float to 6500 RPM.  Specs are: 1.23" OD with 85 lbs on the
seat and a 295 lbs/in rate.  Mine have a yellow paint stripe.  They are single
springs with dampers.

Our engines take springs similar to early small block Chevys (1.22" OD
or 1.23" OD).  There are two common wire diameters, 0.177" and 0.192",
with the larger wire diameter used for the higher rate LT1 springs.
Comp Cams, Melling, Speed Pro, and the cam companies like Comp, Crane
and Crower have similar springs but make sure the installed seat pressure
and coil bind heights are compatible with your specific cam.  Here are
some specs:

Part #    OD (in.) Closed # Open # Rate(#/in.)
----------------------------------------------
FM VS677  1.20      80      200    267        
FM VS739R 1.264    105      277    350     Chevy LT1 spring
FM VS1615 1.23      85      230    295        
CC 979    1.24      80      200    267        
CC 980    1.23      85      230    325        

VS-677; 1.238" OD, 2.03" free length, .177" wire diameter, 6.8 coils,
80# @ 1.7", 200# @ 1.25", coil bind 1.15", 267#/in spring rate, damper

VS-744; 1.225" OD, 2.02" free length, .175" wire diameter, 6.6 coils,
80# @ 1.7", 200# @ 1.25", coil bind 1.15", 267#/in spring rate, no
damper

I wonder if any of the new beehive springs would be suitable for our
applications.  No damper is required and the tiny retainers are very
light.  Couple with light tubular pushrods and it might up the max RPM.
Most beehives are for hydraulic roller cams and have seat pressures that
are not compatible with flat tappet cams but some like Comps 26113 might
work (93 lbs seat 191 lbs/in rate, 1.061" OD).

Dan Jones

I did get the VS1615 springs D&D suggested. I'm using the Crower 50233 cam but the lobe lift is the same as the 232 just more duration. I figure I should be good there. I'm making about just under 12:1 so will probably be doing well with the duration. SWEET. So I'm good with the Crower lifters then.

> I did get the VS1615 springs D&D suggested. I'm using the Crower
> 50233 cam but the lobe lift is the same as the 232 just more duration.
> I figure I should be good there. I'm making about just under 12:1 so
> will probably be doing well with the duration.

Have you checked coil bind on those springs yet?  Max lift on the
50232 is 0.490".  Max lift on the 50233 is 0.501".  D&D specifies
different valve springs for lift over 0.5".

112 lobe centers is all wrong for that engine and 12:1 compression.

Dan Jones

I think I'm OK because my valves are about 40 thou longer than stock. I missed the piston head volume in my CR calculation it's actually more like 11:1.

On the lobe separation: The closest I came to 75º overlap was 110º in the Crane and that was something like 68-70 and the duration was pretty steep to get there and the lift was low. A lot lower: .464 in and .480

Maybe that Crane cam would be closer though. So far I have no idea what cam I should use. LOL!

In the article I should use 108º at 290 and .53+  lift. YIKES! That seems impossibly large. I'll call Vizard and see what he thinks I should do.

Thanks Dan.

> I think I'm OK because my valves are about 40 thou longer than stock.

but you have to shim the springs to get the seat pressure which puts
you back into possible coil bind.

> On the lobe separation: The closest I came to 75º overlap was 110º
> in the Crane and that was something like 68-70 and the duration was
> pretty steep to get there and the lift was low. A lot lower: .464 in
> and .480

From the lift, you are talking about the Crane H-226/290-2S-10
(Crane part number 890631).  I think you used the wrong numbers
to compute overlap.  You need to use the SAE timing (at 0.004"
tappet lift).  That cam has 68 degrees timing (intake opens at
32 degrees BTDC + exhaust closes at 36 ATDC = 68 degrees overlap)

Cam Timing: Tappet @ 0.004" Lift:
         Opens   Closes
 Intake  32 BTDC 72 ABDC
 Exhaust 76 BBDC 36 ATDC

adv dur  0.050" dur   lift        LSA  RPM Range    
284/292  226/234     .464"/.480"  110  2200 to 5500  

> Maybe that Crane cam would be closer though.

Lobe centers are still 110 degrees.  You want 108 degrees.
Crower has some off-the-shelf solid cams with that LSA
but for hydraulic, you may be looking at a custom cam.

> So far I have no idea what cam I should use. LOL!

I'd suggest you call Woody Cooper at the Wedge Shop.  He's run
several different Erson customs (hydraulic and solid) in his TR8
stroker engine and should be able to point you in the right
direction.

> In the article I should use 108º at 290 and .53+ lift. YIKES!
> That seems impossibly large. I'll call Vizard and see what he
> thinks I should do.

The 0.530"+ lift is caveated with "use the maximum lift
consistent with your longevity goals".  In this case, it's
the lobe center that is most important, followed by the
overlap that sets your RPM range.  Let lift fall out based
upon the lobe shape selected.  The 290 degrees is seat
duration and that can correlate to as little as 214 degrees
at 0.050".  Here's a list of Erson's hydraulic lobes:

            .050 adv  lobe   1.6:1
            dur  dur  lift   lift

RV5H        202  274  0.273  0.437
RV10H       208  280  0.280  0.448
RV15H       214  288  0.288  0.461 (0.458)
TQ20H       214  292  0.299  0.478
TQ30H       226  310  0.310  0.496

Hiflow AH   220  284  0.315  0.504
Hiflow IH   228  296  0.315  0.504
Hiflow IIH  235  306  0.315  0.504
Hiflow IIIH 240  316  0.315  0.504

H308/.335   244  308  0.335  0.536
H312/.335   248  312  0.335  0.536
H316/.335   252  314  0.335  0.536

and 0.842" minimum lifter diamter solid lifter lobes:

             .050  lash  lobe  lash  1.6:1
             dur   dur   lift  ramp  lift

RV10M        210   254   .290  0.015 0.464
RV15M        218   266   .290  0.015 0.464

TQ20M        220   270   .310  0.015 0.496
TQ30M        230   280   .310  0.015 0.496

HIFLOW IM    242   286   .340  0.015 0.544
HIFLOW IIM   246   296   .340  0.015 0.544
HIFLOW IIIM  254   306   .340  0.015 0.544

Note the HIFLOW IM solid lifter lobe has 242 degrees @ 0.050" lift
and 0.544" lift but 286 degrees lash duration.  The milder RV15H lobe
has a similar 288 degrees advertised duration but only 214 degrees at
0.050" lift and 0.461" lift.

Dan Jones

I emailed Woody. He got back to me in a couple of minutes! Cool. He suggested the Erson Hiflow IIIH 240 316 0.315 0.504 that you listed. SO I went off on the web to find more info about them and NOTHING! WHAAA?

I guess Mr. Gasket owns Erson now but there is nothing about them on the website. sucks.

PBM owns Erson now:

 http://www.pbm-erson.com/index.php

I don't think they have their catalog online.  I've got one from a
few years back but it doesn't have Woody's custom grinds in it.  

That Hiflow IIIH is a pretty healthy cam. Make sure to ask Woody
what sort of RPM it wants for cruise.

Dan Jones

OK so the question is now do I need to change the springs for this cam... Probably. Will do, Dan.

SWEET find on the Erson site. Thanks man!!

So.. Has anyone looked into roller cams for these engines?

> So.. Has anyone looked into roller cams for these engines?

 http://www.thewedgeshop.com/images/rollercam.jpg

Note the price, $1759 for the shrouded lifters and cam.
I talked to Woody about the price and he says it's because
each cam is made at Erson's CNC shop as complete custom,
not just a combination of catalog lobes.  TA Performance
may also be looking into 215/300/340 hydraulic roller cams.

Dan Jones

Someone continues to use ford mushroom tapped ? Repco F5000 block used them. Of course block need to be bronze bushed.

"TA Performance may also be looking into 215/300/340 hydraulic roller cams"

That would be a big help!

Tim Lanocha is using roller cams in at least three engines. All of them are 284+ rear wheel horsepower. Two of the three have Buick 340 iron heads to get the flow and rpms and programable fuel injection. It is a complicated set up but once together and tuned the engines scream!

Group 44 TR8 had 3.9 Rover V8s would run a roller cam on thier 360 horsepower sprint engines.
-Michael

Are those solid or hydraulic rollers?

Dan Jones

Both Group 44 & Tim Lanocha are using solid roller lifter cams

Michael

Part of the "problem" with this series of engines is .842" lifter dia., which limits ramp speeds for flat tappets. Other is base circle of cam is reduced approx. .12" as result of stepped cam bearings. I.E. later V6's and 350's using largest dia. all the way back. This also increases torsional strength of cam. For those wishing to sleeve lifter bores,this opens up some options.  You could "carefully" weld gusset plates over lifter areas. Two-fold benefit. 1. increase strength in highly stressed areas for serious cams,(mushroom/roller). 2. Reduce oil losses directly onto crank/etc. With sleeved bores you could readily use Chevy hyd/roller lifters,(cheep), with-out oil pressure bleed-off problems. Or how bout "gutting" the internals, put top piece back-in and have a cheep/strong, mech. roller lifter with longer pushrod seated closer to roller side-trusting action,(stronger). "Maybe" I can weld up the back-four bearing areas enough for "smarter" bearings? Don't try this at home! Food for thought. Regards, roverman.

"With sleeved bores you could readily use Chevy hyd/roller lifters"

I like the way this guy is thinking!