BritishV8 Forum

> Edelbrock claims that their manifold can get about a 50 hp gain.

That wasn't due to the intake manifold alone.  Their test engine consisted of an
even-fire 231 Buick V6 with 1979 and up tall port heads, Edelbrock Performer intake
manifold (p/n 5486), 500 CFM AFB carb, 1 1/2" primary diameter headers and Performer
Plus cam (p/n 5487) with the following specs:

 204/214 degrees duration @ 0.050" lift
 280/290 degrees advertised duration
 0.448" / 0.472" valve lift
 112 degrees LSA, installed on a 107 degrees ICL
 Claimed idle vacuum is 15".

> A 200 hp v6 sounds good to me.

In their catalog, Edelbrock shows a comparison plot of their test engine and a
stock engine but note they plot torque, not power.  Eyeballing the plot, the
peak torque is 220 ft-lbs at 3000 RPM.  Plotting the torque for other RPM and
converting to HP shows a peak power of around 167 HP between 4500 and 5000 RPM.

Most of the Buick V6 intake manifolds, including GM's 4.1L Buick V6 four barrel,
are single plane manifolds while the Edelbrock is a dual plane design.  It's a
little odd that Edelbrock chose to go with a dual plane.  The dual plane design
was designed to compensate for the adjacent cylinder firing reversion problem
that non-flat plane crank 90 degree V8s suffer from.  Being a V6, the Buick 231
doesn't have that problem.

On of the TR7 guys did a fair bit of intake and carb testing on his Buick 4.1L V6
(had a Crane H-214/2867-12 cam and TR7 swap headers from John's Cars) and his opinion
was the Kenne-Bell #1 Buick V6 4 barrel manifold was, by far, the best manifold
available for the normally aspirated Buick V6.

> I used to mess around with Buick V6s a bit and typed up some test data that you
> may be interested in.  It probably doesn't belong in the classifieds so I'll put
> it in the Engine and Transmission Tech forum.

Here's the info I mentioned.  I typed it in way back when I was messing with the
Buick V6.  If you are building a normally aspirated Buick V6, try to get your hands
on a copy of the Jim  Ruggles Buick V6 Guide.  Kenne Bell's V6 tech tips, the Buick
Free Spirit Performance Guide, the SA Design V6 Performance book and Smokey
Yunick's 5-step dyno test (Hot Rod magazine swap article) are also good reference
material.

Note the Kenne Bell's HP numbers below are estimates from drag strip testing.

Dan Jones

Smokey Yunick's 5-step dyno test
 4.1L Buick V6 with stock 4 barrel intake and Qjet carb   152 HP
 Weiand intake manifold and Holley 600 CFM carb           170 HP
 Weiand headers                                           175 HP
 Crane H-214/2867-12 cam                                  202 HP
 Bowl port heads                                          230 HP

Kenne Bell Level 1 Package
 HP    HP
 Total Increase
 125   --   Factory HP 231 V6
 150   25   KB Number intake manifold
 160   10   Holley 390 CFM carb
 182   22   KB Mark 1 (dual pattern) cam kit
 194   12   9.25:1 compression pistons
 197   03   KB windage tray
 200   03   KB oil pan
 210   10   Mark 2 cam

Kenne Bell Level 2 package
 240   30   KB ported heads
 245   05   KB needle bearing roller rockers
 250   05   headers

Kenne Bell drag testing (note: the info below has some tests from 1977 Skyhawk mixed
in with 1979 Skyhawk tests).
Test MPH   ET     HP
 1   74.1  16.60   95  1979 Skyhawk w/KB oil pump kit and grooved main bearings,
                       7" slicks, stock gears, 2850lbs, 3050 lbs w/driver
 2   75.0  16.50  100  KB flex fan and fan spacer kit
 3   76.0  16.40  104  KB advance curve kit
 4   76.5  16.10  104  4.10 gears with KB ring spacer
 5   77.6  16.00  109  replace catalytic converter and muffler with KB parts
 6   77.9  15.98  111  conventional 1 1/2" 3 tube headers
 7   78.6  15.90  114  conventional 1 5/8" 3 tube headers
 8   80.1  15.73  123  KB81031 1 5/8" 3-in-1 headers
 9   83.3  15.34  137  KB Mark 1L cam kit (recommend KB roller timing chain,
                       cam gasket kit and front cover seal)
10   84.3  15.23  142  KB Mark 1X cam kit (cut guides and install KB seals with
                       0.060" retainer clearance)
11   86.0  15.12  152  KB Mark 2X cam kit
12  no change          Rhoads lifters

Note: Cam and headers were tested with stock 2 barrel carb and intake.  Had the
4 barrel carb and intake been tested first, increases would likely have been
larger.

13   87.1  15.01  157  KB19904 oil pan, KB19801 windage tray
14   88.0  14.91  163  KB crank, water pump and alternator pulleys
15   90.2  14.70  174  KB Number 1 intake manifold with stock 2 barrel carb
16   92.5  14.56  187  KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 500 CFM Carter
17   93.0  14.50  190  KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 625 CFM Carter
18   92.0  14.60  184  KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 400 CFM Carter
19   91.0  14.70  178  Heat KB intake runners to same temperature as conventional
                       manifold.
20   92.0  14.60  184  Cool runners
21   92.0  14.70  184  KB Number 1 intake manifold and KB jetted Holley 390 carb
                       (recommend KB EGR block off plate, heat isolator gasket)
22   93.3  14.55  195  KB blocked off heat riser (gasket or plates)
23   92.0  14.70  184  install stock air cleaner
24   93.3  14.55  195  KB46007F polyester max-flo low profile air cleaner

XX   94.1  14.41  196  Ram air (4" hose through headlight or hood scoop/cowl)
                       Note this test had 400 CFM Carter and did not have
                       blocked off heat risers
25   94.8  14.39  207  KB61003S budget forged pistons 10.2:1 compression ratio
26   94.8  14.39  207  KB50004 7000 RPM cast pistons 10.2:1 compression ratio
27   94.8  14.39  207  KB60003 Superlite forged pistons compression ratio
28   89.8  15.14  168  change to Edelbrock #5486 dual plane intake
                       (same 6000 RPM shift points)
29   89.8  15.06  168  lower shift points to 5000 RPM
30   94.8  14.39  207  re-install KB Number 1 intake manifold
31   95.9  14.29  214  KB11804-KB11904 Stage 1 valves only
32   97.4  14.12  221  ported and polished high port heads w/KB Stage 1 valves
33   98.5  14.01  228  KB Mark 2R cam
34  no change          Rhoads lifters
35  100.0  13.87  240  KB Mark 3R cam kit
36  no change          KB Mark 3RS cam kit (same design as 3R but solid lifter)

Note: 10.2:1 CR will run fine on 92 octane, use Rhoads lifters on Mark 2R or 3R
cams to smooth out for street use

37  101.9  13.72  250  KB 12:1 compression ratio pistons
38  102.8  13.64  255  KB9301 roller rocker arms
39  102.8  13.04  255  10" x 29.5" slicks, 5.13:1 gears and Doug Nash 4 speed
40  103.7  12.93  263  KB aluminum pulleys

Note: The above 12:1 compression engine can be run on the street but requires
100 octane fuel.

The following tests are for a competition only vehicle.  Engine was rebuilt
with heavy duty block and rods, studs, MSD ignition, scattershield, steel
flywheel, etc.  Suspension was also optimized for drag race (Ron Cosner front
and 4 link rear).

41  104.0  12.89  266  blueprinted engine
42  no change          increase bearing and piston clearance 0.001"
43  106.1  12.59  278  KB Mark 5RS cam
44  109.4  12.31  304  KB82-7342 roller cam kit with Crane roller lifters
45  110.5  12.20  311  Mr. Gasket electric water pump kit
46  111.3  11.99  323  13:1 pistons
47  no change          KB/Howards aluminum rods
48  no change          install identical odd-fire engine
49  115.0  11.72  358  install identical 252" engine
50  124.0  10.80  442  Ported Stage 2 heads, KB roller rockers, head studs,
                       cam kit, 3-in-1 headers, Edelbrock Stage 2 intake
                       manifold
51  125.0  10.71  451  Change to 750 Carter or Holley
52  no change          Milodon gear drive
53  122.1  11.00       Powerglide tranmissions and 7" high stall converter
54  126.4  10.60  493  276" stroker V6 with powerglide
55  129.0  10.30  493  Doug Nash 5 speed transmission

Note: KB ultimately turned 9.18 @ 146.5 MPH in 2400 lb car, breaking
the NHRA record

Lots of good stuff to chew on there!  One humble little question. Kenne Bell reportedly picked up ~3hp by fitting their oil pan even after they'd previously fitted their windage tray. How does that work?


With all the Buick V6s used in professional racing series, including for example Indy Lights and Camel GT, there must be tons upon tons upon tons of trick race-car tech available for these engines. Much better cylinder heads and slide-throttle EFI systems, for example?

Kenne Bell reportedly picked up ~3hp by fitting their oil pan even after they'd previously fitted their windage tray. How does that work?


Within the margin of error for the dyno?  Also, I would think they started with a freshly built engine so you'd see minor gains from engine run in.



With all the Buick V6s used in professional racing series, including for example Indy Lights and Camel GT

Google "Ohio George Montgomery".  His shop is still in operation.

Don't forget NASCAR Grand National and circle track Late Models, nobody competes with those anymore.  Hell, you can BUY a 600hp, normally aspirated, push rod Buick v6 from out of an old Grand National team.  Just keep your eyes peeled on RacingJunk.com.

I know a guy down in Fla who still exhibits a v6 powered Grand National circle track car every so often.

Good tips. Ohio George's website quotes 425hp for their Indy Lights spec crate-motors. (No price listed.) To fit in an MGB or a TR7, I'm thinking a hole through the bonnet would be required.

Eh, I may have gotten a little over excited saying '600'.

Jim Ruggles says 530hp out of 274ci.

http://www.teambuick.com/reference/library/v6_stage2.php

> Kenne Bell reportedly picked up ~3hp by fitting their oil pan even after
> they'd previously fitted their windage tray. How does that work?

I assume it was a deep sump pan that gets the crank out of the oil.

> Within the margin of error for the dyno?

As noted above, those are not dyno numbers.  They are derived from drag strip
testing using a 1/4 mile calculator (based on trap speed).  Because of the way
they are derived, they fold what is an effect that applies across the rev range
into an effective HP difference.

> With all the Buick V6s used in professional racing series, including for
> example Indy Lights and Camel GT, there must be tons upon tons upon tons of
> trick race-car tech available for these engines. Much better cylinder heads
> and slide-throttle EFI systems, for example?

but they are two separate engine families sharing very little in common.
Stage II blocks and heads had 6 bolts per cylinder.  The blocks were cast on
center and the heads have evenly spaced ports versus the paired of the street
Buick V6 engines.  Heads, intakes, blocks, cams, etc are all different.

Dan Jones

Needle bearing rockers were worth 15 hp? How does that work? I'm quite sure it must not take that much to overcome the friction in pressure oiled plain bearings.

Jim

Needle bearing rockers were worth 15 hp? How does that work?


Up the rocker ratio?

> Needle bearing rockers were worth 15 hp?

Where do you see that, Jim?  I show a 5 HP claimed increase
(240 to 245 HP with the Level 2 package and 250 to 255 with KB9301).
The claim is the stock Buick V6 rocker ratio is 1.55:1 and the
roller rockers were 1.6:1.

Dan Jones

You are right, I misread the numbers, and a change in rocker ratio certainly will affect the output.

Jim

Earlier Stage II blocks were cast as "off-center bores', similar to production bores. This offsets the rod approx .120", not your best choice for big hp., but necessary to cram offset journals in there, to make it even fire.This requires "H" beam rods and "bridged skirt" pistons, to live at higher outputs.  Many formerly hi-$ stage II race parts, show up on ebay/etc. I have a future build of a 4.1L production block,(cheap), and stage II, on remaining components. This to be a streetable na. motor, transverse/mid mounted, in a 914. To say this should be exciting, is a given. Many new/used stage II parts, are a real bargain, if you know how to dig. The stage II heads will bolt on the production block, and will flow 340 cfm/int., by most skilled porters. You use 4 studs per bore, and quality mls gaskets, not too much compression/boost, and your good to go. Cheers, roverman.

TA PERFORMANCE  sells a aluminum 231 buick turbo v6 block. Has anyone used one?

LIkey, because of price, not here.More likely in "Yellow Bucket", or other Buick V6 forums. The production iron block, does quite well, whiht up-graded internals.  Cheers, roverman.

Pulled the cam from my 231" tonight.
It's a KB-MK2X.

Anyone know what the specs might be?
RPM range?

KB site did me no good as he's into Fords and supercharging now.

I "may" find an ol' catalog.  I would consider converting to a good hyd. roller set-up. You would need to install the oem sheet metal "spyder", to retain the oem "dog bone" short body oem lifters.  Cheers, roverman.

> Pulled the cam from my 231" tonight.  It's a KB-MK2X.  Anyone know what the specs might be? RPM range?

278/280 degrees advertised duration, 0.478"/0.494" lift, 112 LSA.  The Kenne Bell catalog says it has a 1500 to 6000 RPM range with a 7000 RPM maximum when using their lifters and matching springs.  Sales blurb in the catalog says:

"KB MARK 2X
This is the maximum performance cam for lighter street vehicles with stick transmissions. Popular street/off-road cams.  Lots of torque.  An updated design of the famous Kenne Bell Mark 2 selected by Buick for the 1976 Indy Pace Car.  Identical cam used in the KB prepared Dune Buick for Buick's TV commercials and magazine ads.  Same cam I run in my 252" 4-speed Skyhawk.  Quiet operation.  Idles with a very slight lope at 900 RPM.  Same Kenne Bell Hi-Lift, Hi-Torque, design as the Mark 1X but more midrange and top end power.  Will rev to 7000.  Best shift points for racing is 5500-6000.  Must use Kenne Bell Springs and "No Wiggle" Retainers.  O.K. with stock pistons.  Pulls strong from 2000-6000.  Designed to work best with the Kenne Bell Number 1 Manifold and KB44230 Carburetor.  Broad torque range. Quick, crisp throttle response. Automatic transmissions need KB191V6SS 2500 High Stall Converter for best results."

A scan of the Buick V6 cam page from the Kenne Bell catalog is here:

 http://www.teambuick.com/reference/library/v6_cams_kenne-bell.php

That cam is one of the parts tested in the Kenne Bell tests I listed above.  Also I think I still have a Kenne Bell Number 1 Buick V6 intake sitting on the shelf if anyone is interested.

Dan Jones

Thanks for the info.
Do you happen to know their recommended pre-load?
And to really be a choosey beggar, recommended timing?

Looks like I lucked out on the cam!
Lifters are unmarked and I really do not want to dismantle the heads.
I'm hoping the builder took KB's advice and got the complete set.

I've sent the KB-1 intake I have out to be welded up enough on top for port matching to my "Tall Port" heads.
From what I could see without adding some material I would not have enough metal on top.
Might like to have another, what would you want for yours?

For a "Road Race" engine this one seems pretty mild, lots of small things like a little head porting I would have done that he did not.
Maybe not all bad as I'm barely going to be able to match up the stock ports.

> Do you happen to know their recommended pre-load?

Not off hand.  Do you have a copy of the Ruggles Guide?  It might be in there.

> And to really be a choosey beggar, recommended timing?

32 degrees total timing using the KB advance curve kit.  I'll have to check if the mechanical advance curve vs. RPM is called out but it might also be in the Ruggles Guide.

> Looks like I lucked out on the cam!

Looks like a good high performance street grind.

> From what I could see without adding some material I would not have enough metal on top.

I need to check the Weiand intake.  It may have larger runners that better match the later tall port heads than the Kenne Bell.

> Might like to have another, what would you want for yours?

Let me check to make sure I still have it.

> For a "Road Race" engine this one seems pretty mild, lots of small things like a little head porting I would have done that he did not.

Sounds like it more of a high performance street engine than road race.

Dan Jones

I did a quick check of the Weiand, Kenne Bell and OEM Buick V6 intakes.  The Kenne Bell has the smaller port to fit both the early and later heads. The Weiand has larger ports like the OEM 4.1L Buick V6 intake.  I'll measure the ports this weekend.

Dan Jones

Got my copy of The Buick Free Spirit Power Manual today.
Early edition so not as complete as the one I had that disappeared.
Still lots of good info, I now know that my engine is about 10-1 compression with the Buick 350 pistons.

Want to find out if #8445 Grand National heads will fit my '78? even-fire lower.
As I understand it early GN heads do fit the early block but "Stage II" do not.

You might want to go to gnttype.org and look at the resources section for good information on cylinder heads.  The 8445 cylinder head is simply end of development for the even-fire turbo production engine . Actually there are several casting numbers.  All even-fire heads fit on any even-fire block.  Stage II blocks came in on center and off center versions. Stage I blocks came off center machined with the 4 bolt pattern.  It would appear that 8445 heads will fit on these blocks using the 4 bolt pattern instead of the 6 bolt stage II pattern.  It is also my understanding that the stage I head is the same as the TA and Champion GN-1 aluminum head.  They are machined for the 6 bolt pattern but bolt on any even-fire block.  Stage II heads will only take stage II intake manifolds.  The ports are evenly spaced, large and very pricey.  You already know how much a set of GN-1 heads cost so the 8445 heads modified are the way to go.  You can get a set of 8445 heads from Champion completely modified with valves and springs also.  The gnttype photo guide pretty well walks you through the porting.  Before I did my engine I asked a lot of questions and did a lot of reading about it.  It is a well developed engine that in NA form can put out about 350 max hp as a stage I. The development really was centered around the turbo and the horse power numbers really jump in that realm.  Could you live with it on the street...probably depends on you.  My motor is 10:1 with about the same cam timing as your KB.  The Weber carbs, matched ports and bowl ported heads and headers I believe it is putting out about 200 hp.  I have a 14lb flywheel and it had a learning curve to the dead start procedure.  It would probably help if I had a 3.5:1 rear end instead of the 2.9 but the gas mileage is pretty good and my passenger usually won't let me get into too many demonstrations of speed in the city.

a note on the thought of all even fire heads fit even fire blocks that is true to the point that they will physically bolt on.(heads will bolt on Going way back to the early sixties v6) but throughout the years there have been differences in water jacket design and water transfer hole locations. One must match a head to the block for correct water sealing.. For example a 4.1 head will not work on a early 3.8 engines. the block and heads are cast in a slightly different shape that there will be mismatch and severe water leakage there is extra material above the cylinder areas on the 4.1 with relocated water transfer port. Note that some heads have water "holes" and thers have a "D"  shape to them. excluding the water jacket transfers on the very end of the head and block these are often referred to as dogbone holes. some people have welded these up for extra block strength and to slow down the water through the block and heads. and for more even heat distribution.