BritishV8 Forum

Rob, be sure to write that Part Number and source of the nose cones in the spiral book.

I have not looked at the engine so this may be an unusable suggestion, but i'll put it out there. Can you temporarily plug the factory pcv  hole and install the pcv in the valve cover where there should be less oil flying around?

Not really with the valve covers we have. It might be possible to come off the fuel pump block off plate though.

Jim

What about the oil fill cap? Maybe make a new cap that includes the pcv valve?

Update time...  

Air shocks are fixed & I encased the line in some hose I had to help protect it.  It's holding @ 70 lbs; I'll set it back to 80 when it's on the ground (didn't want to over fill them and wasn't sure if the pressure goes up when there's weight on them).

Whoever said the melted section of air hose  might be a bad motor ground was right.  The battery ground runs to the tranny casing and stopped there.  So it probably was grounding through the oil pressure hose (that's what was running by it vs. the clutch line).  I've added a 4 GA ground tied in on the same bolt securing the cable at the tyranny and will bolt the other end on a starter bolt.  Had planned to use a ground strap, but didn't have one after all.  Anyway, I'm hoping having a better ground might also clear up the teach; we'll see.

Starter is disassembled waiting for the cone.  Had to send the first batch back - my fault, I must have dyslexia; I transposed two numbers in the starter PN.  they're swapping them out for me; should have the right ones sometime next week.

Now the bad news.  The timing control box we have does not have the start retard function.  I called MSD when I couldn't find the purple wire and when I described the box the tech said we have an older model that doesn't have it.  They do sell a stand alone start retard box (appropriately called a starter saver).  It goes for $100 from them - might be able to get it a little cheaper thru summit or jegs.  Let me know if you guys want me to  get one.  I'm donating the stuff I've done so far so that'd be the only item I'd need reimbursed.

No thoughts on whether we should invest in a start retard box?  Seems to me it'd pay for itself in 2 starters.  There's a newer timing control box like the one we have but with the start retard I'm watching.  Has a few days left.

Rob, I think it would be a good idea. But it isn't for me to say. I'm pretty sure that if you wanted to buy and install it nobody would complain, but will BADASS pay for it? Might want to ask Bill on that one.

Jim

Rob, I still don't quite understand why we would need a start retard box on that engine. With the comperession ratio we're running and the cam we shouldn't have to advance the initial timng all that far past stock I'd think. That is if the vacuum advance is hooked up and working correctly. There's no need for you to pay for the starter parts though, we have enough in the treasury for that. I don't want to waste our meager funds, but if there is agreement from most of the guys that we should have this feature then we should do it. We'll find the money necessary. Hope you can get it running fine pretty soon and enjoy the car some. Only have a couple of more weeks before we need to consider getting it on the way back east to Ohio.

Bill, even with the timing optimized on the dyno, which I think puts static at around 6 degrees or so, it kicks back. I think the stock setting is 8 degrees soit must be due to the cam. Retarding static any more will hurt mileage though so the question is this:
Will the strap Rob added to the other end of the starter be enough to keep from breaking it again?
If not, the retarder should help.

Jim

Would one of these spark delay valves work? Stop the vacuum advance from pulling while cranking.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Spark-Delay-Valve/_/N-9gt8l

That is an interesting idea Jim N. Would be worth a try and very inexpensive to boot. Might just do the job. If now we wouldn't be out much.

How much vacuum do you have when cranking? If it isn't over 12-15 inches that isn't going to do much. But it wouldn'tcost much to try.

Jim

I don't think there's enough centrifical force or vacuum for the distributor to be adding any advance during cranking.  I think it's going to take an electronic retard to do the trick but, I'll get one of them and see what happens.  I'm just worried the starter will break again & while we now have a spare nose cone, depending on where/when it next breaks, it could be a real pain.  My vote is to watch ebay for a start retard box or a newer timing control that has the function & resell our box to recoup a little of the money.

I'm working on getting the Roadmaster published into a 2013 calendar.

I need some high resolution jpgs to submit with some that I've taken on my own.

No people should be in the pictures.

Minimum resolution 2272 x 1704 with a resolution of 3300 x 2550 preferred.

Shots should be 3/4 front; 3/4 rear, interior, engine bay, overhead view, etc.

Curtis...what do you have from Atlanta?

Please send your jpgs to:  mowog1@aol.com  

Thanks in advance!

I have the starter put back together & made a bracket for the back of it.  Painted it last night & will be stalling it this evening.  I can take the car to a local neighborhood with a lake & some nice scenery to take some pics if someone doesn't already have what you need.  I hesitate driving it too much until we sort out the hot start backfire, though.  I don't have a trailer so if it breaks I have to have it towed.

With all of the oil consumption, I must wonder how much carbon is in the combustion chambers ? Is the advance returning to basic every time,( not sticking) ? Good Luck, roverman.

Starter is reinstalled with a pretty stout bracket...



Did notice a spot on the oil pressure line that may be damaged from when the starter came off.  There's a hole in the braided steel a bit smaller than 1/4".  Looks like there was a zip tie there that got torn off.  Can't tell if the hose itself is ruptured or not but will check it when I start it tomorrow - needed to do some stuff with my kids & wife this evening.

Looks good, Rob.

Very nice bracket. Good work on that Rob. Very good chance that will cure the breakage problem.

Jim

I suggest making the spare nosecone very comfortable when it gets stowed away in the tool/parts kit, that bracket is going to do the trick, we had issues with the nosecones breaking on all the ones that had the two bolts side by side and not staggered. Nice Job!

I was talking with an MSD technician today...  he mentioned that the grey/black wires @ the two pin connector on the timing controller should be shorted together if we're not using a high RPM retard module (which we're not).  When I ask what would happen if they're just left open he said the effect would be random misfiring at random RPM's.  Ours are open but I've not noticed any misfiring.  Have any of you who've driven the car noticed any?  Unless others have noticed some missing, I'm going to leave it as is.

On a second point, aside from thinking we had a start retard with the MSD timing box, why are we using it [or conversely, why do we have a distributor that doesn't have the mechanical advance locked out)?  

From reading the manual & the web (it's MSD model 8981 for anyone who wants to read up on it), it's designed to be used with a locked out distributor -- e.g., it's supposed to replace the function of the springs/weights.  From the manual "The MSD Programmable Timing Computer uses electronics instead of the conventional weights, springs, and stops to deliver the perfect ignition curve."  Instead of the centrifical advance, the MSD box has 3 adjustments ---

     a) Initial timing
     b) RPM
     c) Slope

The way it's designed to work is this:

1.  You set the distributor to the max total timing you want [mechanical timing] (remember, it's supposed to be locked out so baring anything else, this is the timing that the engine would see).
2.  The Initial timing then retards the timing off of that.  Up to 30 degrees.  So if the distributor/mechanical was set at 34* & the initial timing knob was fully counter clockwise, initial timing would be 4* (34-30=4).  If the knob were fully clockwise, initial timing would be 34* (34-0=34).
3.  You then adjust the RPM knob to set the RPM at which you want the timing to start coming back in - let's say 1000 RPM. (it's adjustable from 1000 to 3000).
4.  And lastly, you adjust the rate [Slope] the timing comes back  with full counter clockwise being 1/2* per 1000 RPM & full clockwise being 20* per 1000 RPM

I don't know where the knobs are set right now, but the combination of those + the mechanical + the vacuum advance could be doing some interesting things.

Pulled over from the events thread...

QuotePosted by: crashbash
Date: July 11, 2012 03:53PM

Is'nt this thing still under warrenty? Not sure what universe the dealership is in ha
Is this starter thing such an issue because of the big motor/little starter? Are there simular problem with other BOP/Rover engines? I don't remember reading much about this being a problem.

I've been doing a lot of reading on it in the last month or so.  Backfires with broken starters seem to be a fairly common scenario with BBB's with any sort of upgraded cam.  The buick boards have lots of folks with the problem & several selling upgraded starters (higher torque &/or rotational speed I assume).  And, MSD sells a device called a starter saver that's also often referenced as a solution.  The problem, IMO, is that the starter has the two bolts in line & there's precious little metal around the short bolt.  The casting just can't hold up to the backlash it gets on a backfire.  One thing that might help would be to build up the metal around the short bolt hole with weld, but I can't weld aluminum with my MIG.  We'll see if my bracket helps.  I hope so, but have my doubts -- there's just a lot of torque when it backfires.

That's partially why i was asking about why we're using the 8981 timing computer... my thought was if we don't need it, we might want to consider selling it in favor of buying a starter saver (start retard box).

Car's on the road again.  

And radio is working too.  I didn't do anything to fix it so there must be a loose wire or ground that made contact again while was messing with the air line T that's behind the radio.  I'll see if I can find it to fix permanently.

Rob:

I think I speak for all of us-- good work!   It sounds like you've been enjoying some of the "fix it" process, anyway.   :-)   Above and beyond, indeed!


I think Jim said full timing on the dyno ended up at 30* mech.   The vac can throws 20* and (I would presume...) is still hooked up manifold.  (Jim's preference.)

Thus, IF the engine can draw enough vac for the can (10"?) it will also pull vac on top of those 6* static.  

I would think, then, that some sort of start retard will be necessary in our current set up.  


RE:  programmable MSD.  I never looked into this unit-- we had it running (barely) on just the 'normal' set up.    But, I would agree-- IF the weights are still fully independent, sort of defeats the purpose?  The computer would constantly be losing it's zero....

This brings up the next question:  on the dyno, was the timing changed WITH THE BOX or with the distributor?  (Our programmable 123TUNE in the racecar is changed with a computer-- distributor is zeroed and then LEFT ALONE.  All timing points:  idle, vac, redline, etc. are all just programmed in.)  

Alas, we never had the Roadmaster running enough (no brakes, no alternator...) to be able to give much for information on what it did "pre-MSD".    I don't remember any backfires (Carl?  Steve?).   Steve drove it around the most before the MSD was installed.    I'd be curious if he had any of the hot start backfires...  If not, then I think Rob is DEFINITELY onto something re: the weights not locked down!

We had this problem both before and after the dyno, so what timing tweaks were done (sounds like -6*) still didn't fix the issue.  

$.02

M

The Roadmaster backfired on me twice during my stint with it on the Power Tour in June.

Both times after the car was already warmed up.