BritishV8 Forum

We did not find Mike Finnegan yesteday, but will look for him today.

Pete had interaction with a reporter from England who is sending information across the pond for several publications, including "Octane" magazine.

My TV crew from the local CBS affiliate did not find the Roadmaster, but there was coverage regarding the tour broadcast. We'll see what happens in Saint Louis.

It is important that we all remember that we are Good Will Ambassadors for the Roadmaster and conduct ourselves as such whenever driving the Roadmaster or interacting with the public (or our peers). This includes road rage, etc.

Well said Pete and Jim. We will do all in our power to represent the organization well and have a great time doing it as well. Bringing the camera and laptop so should have some photos from this afternoon in Madison as well as on the road to Stillwater in the next couple of days.

Link to the Hot Rod Power Tour thread.

 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,31861

On the oil consumption,  we have speculated that it could be caused by the pcv and this seems likely as there is no baffle and the valve plugs directly into the intake lifter valley cover. Most likely there is a fair bit of oil being slung around in that area so we should try to rig a stand pipe and oil separator there and plug the pcv valve into the top of it. Something along the lines of a small can stuffed with steel wool should work.

We have seen at least two instances lately where proper venting has drastically reduced oil consumption and the symptoms point to a pcv problem. I followed the car for several hundred miles. Only twice did I ever see a blue puff and it alternated from one pipe and then from the other. It also never smelled like oil when following. There did not seem to be any evidence of an oil film on Mike's car either,  and much of the time I Followed pretty close.

Jim

It left very little oil on my garage floor compared to my own MG.

I had about five spots, one inch in diameter each, on the driveway under the car on Tuesday morning after having parked it on Monday evening.

About the same experience during the past couple of days for Bill Davidson and myself. Noticed a few puffs of smoke on shifts, but overall no blue smoke on the road and no oil spots on Bill's car after following the Roadmaster for nearly 500 miles. Who knows where the oil is going since our oil consumption was still about a quart every 150 miles.

At this point I think we have to say we are burning it. The real question is why. Rings, lntake valve seals, or PCV. The engine was properly assembled so the PCV is the most likely cause. I think we need to try an oil separator in the PCV line.

Jim

Mr. Gasket,Proform and Transdapt make universal breather look seperators for PCV Valves. Here's a couple of pics:

I posted the good news in the Power Tour thread; thought I'd share the "after party" info here...  Took my younger son to church this morning to show off the car some to his friends there -- Jr. High kids were leaving on a beach week trip...  Stopped for gas on the way home & when I restarted the car, the starter broke off again.  Ear broke off the starter & the long bolt sheared off so I'll have to get the remains out.  Was going to tie the wires together, tape them up, and push start to get it home, but seems like when the starter broke off & fell it took out one of the air bag lines with it -- which let all the air out.  We heard the hissing & the frame around the radiator being only about 3/4" to 1" off the ground confirmed it.  Compressor pumping doesn't bring it up any & I hear some air -- can't see anything with the car that low.  So, I decided the ride of shame was a better option.

I'll get it up on some jack stands this evening & will work on getting the bolt out, starter fixed & reinstalled & air bag line fixed during the week.  Jim - I'll PM you -- hoping you have some of the hose & connectors left over for the air bags.

Apparently I missed it somewhere earlier in this thread, but sounds like we need to figure out how to adjust the ignition control box retartd the timing during start up.  I'll see what I can do to get a manual from MSD.  Otherwise we're going to go through starters at way too fast a clip!

I think there is a manual for the timing controller in the map pocket behind the seat. I will send a bundle of tubing and the extra can stay with the car. Guess it'll be Monday before it goes out though. Steve D used a tubing kit for air shocks from Advance, if you need it quicker.

Jim

Since the engine only has 6 degrees advance, I don't htink further retarding is going to help.
That started just does not fit the bell housing at all.  Maybe it needs a strap on the other end of the starter to the block.
Right now all the torque to start the engine taken by the bolts.  Or we need a different starter.

Steve

I deeply regret that I didn't take some snapshots of that starter installation when I had a chance, because they'd be so helpful now.  As I recall, this starter has a nose just like any other but there's no corresponding hole in the block or bellhousing for it to mate with. (Sad, lonely starter nose...)  I'm wondering if a piece of billet couldn't be machined to support the nose. Could a billet nose-support be TIG welded to the bellhousing?

Before I order parts, what are the chances a mini starter designed for the motor will fit?  They all seem to look like this one
  What do you guys who've been under the car think?

Well, the original starter that we got from Newport Start-n-Charge was a mini starter specifically built for Buick big and small block engines and the cases of broken starter noses on those all resulted from kickback while cranking to start. Our engine still occasionally kicks back when starting. So, until we fix that we will be buying starters frome time to time. But the timing computer should let us do that, and a strap should help.

As for what starter to buy, I think what is available is what we had and what Steve bought. I don't see any point in putting a $300 starter on it. If we don't deal with the root cause it will just snap the bolts off that one too. That's my opinion.

Jim

Jim, I haven't been under the car yet, but I'm hearing two different things...  One is the backfire on warm restarts.  The second is apparently at least the starter that was last on the car wasn't designed for a big block Buick.  While I'm not planning to spend $300, I can get one similar to the one pictured for the same price as CarQuest sells the one that was on it.  But if it doesn't it's wasted time.  That's why I was asking.  Either was I still plan to figure out how to use the MSD box to address the timing during start up.  I just cant make progress on that till I have a starter.

I can't speak to what starter Steve and Curtis put on the car. I do think it was a generic GM mini and I'm not sure there really is any distinction between big block and small block. If it was the part number the V8Buick guys gave us it is one that is nearly as popular as Jamie's starter that we started out with and probably somewhere around $50 or so less. Just guessing. Jamie's starters are considered by Buick enthusiasts to be about the best you can get, and Jamie said he would send us a new nose, but by then it was a core. If we were going to something different from the generic (which worked just fine until it broke) that is pretty much your choice but I would certainly try to put a substantial strap on the loose end in either case.

Jim

The part number that was on it last is CarQuest 6470S which cross references to '95 & newer chevy, Pontiac, and Buick 350's.  What was the PN the BuickV8 guys recommended?

I don't recall, but it would have been the same P/N for the BBB (455) as for the SBB (350). The same starter bolts up exactly the same way on both blocks.

Jim

What would GM do?

This engine was used for years in cars sold to the general public..without failures.....we've not done that much to the engine that would precipitate all of these starter failures.

Do we have a clearance problem along the frame rail where a stock starter would not work?

Have we changed the bellhousing?

How does our application differ from stock?

I think all it really needs is the rear strap. The leverage between there, the bolts, and the gear is about 6:1 so a small strap will make the gear very rigid. That will prevent the gear from rocking the starter on the mounting bolts and that in turn will prevent bolt stretch and fracture of the nose casting. The key is to make the strap rigid in compression, as that will be the direction of force as the gears push apart from each other, with the bolts acting as a pivot.

Jim

Rick,
The stack starter will not fit.  That's why use a mini starter.  This starter is not made for the BB.  I think we need to try a real BB mini starter.

Steve

I was doing an online search and found this....which is something COMPLETELY different.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O32TUQgCyxs

*deep breath*

Now to stir the pot a little....  :-/

I understand that "Rob has it, Rob broke it, Rob fixes it".  

BUT... it's a known existing problem that has happened before.    And Rob can either win the argument that it was fixed poorly before, OR more likely that it's just poorly engineered and was destined to break.  (Anyone who has read Carrol Smith's hardware book will back this up-- proper engineering DOESN'T break hardware!)

So... this seems a "safe" (and relatively inexpensive?) example to use.  


JUST 'cuz "Rob" has the car, why should he have to pay for what was an Inevitable repair?

Or, are we falling back on the Russian Roulette idea that this was part of the risk he took in accepting the car in the first place-- that the car was destined to break, he was just the unfortunate who had it happen?

(This implies SOMEONE was going to have to pay for a new starter-- Yet Again!-- it just happened to be Rob.)  


BILL (New Pres Extraordinaire):  I reiterate that this project needs to come up with a working means of supporting itself and then a MAINTENANCE budget.  (Or, in this case, a Re-Engineering budget!)     I have yet to read of a "repair" that seems the blame of the operator-- more of them still seem to be teething issues, and the operators have been kind enough to pay to fix them.  

But, the randomness of the occurrences seems to indicate that one person has to pay for a stripped thread while others are coughing up for starters!  


I'm concerned that at some point something major will break-- or if not major, prohibitively expensive-- and the operator will rightly be able to say:  "Hey, this wasn't Me".  

And THEN how does it get fixed?     Otherwise, are we relying on the Racer's Contract which states, very simply, that everytime someone gets into a racecar they have AGREED TO BUY IT FOR "x" dollars?  

Maybe a solution, then, is to set up what the financial liability of the Roadmaster is?   "Any operator will be expect to fix the car with repairs upto "x"dollars."  

[If you make it too much, no one will want to drive the car!]  

Then after that, Major repairs would be handled by the group at a work session, etc.    Carl has long expressed his concern over the tranny and that is another good example of something that is potentially abused by previous users... and then breaks on the *next* one!  

(And that isn't a "cheap" repair!)

$.02

M

I don't think that's stiring the pot Max - it's good discussion that we need to have along with a few other topics like cataloging parts & better documenting the mission of the group.. I hope prez extraordinaire Bill will agree.

That said, I don't mind paying for the starter this time.  Cash has been tight around our house so I haven't donated to the Roadmaster (or to Curtis to help keep this site operating) in quite a while & I've felt like I needed to correct that for some time.  Now, if the tranny went out, I wouldn't be shelling out to rebuild it and would need a group work weekend to get help or the car would be laid up for a looooong while simply due to time availability.

I got my garage cleaned up enough to get the car in last night & will be looking at it today.  If it looks like fabricating a strap or brace will fix it I'm game for that.  I also read on a few Buick boards that there are several mini starters and there was one that supposedly has a good bit more torque that several people said fixed their hot start backfires...  No PN though - it was being sold by site members & the posts were all several years old (like 2006).  I tried contacting two of the sellers but haven't heard back yet.  I'm currently hoping the combination of getting the highest torque starter (in the same series/price range as what was on it) + adding a brace + using the MSD box to regard timing during start up will be a good answer.  There are gear reduction mini starters designed for the 455 but they run about $250 & would have to be ordered by my local parts shops - paid in advance & non-refundable if it doesn't fit so I'm not going that route.  But, if the above doesn't look like a good answer I will check Summit & Jegs to see if they'll allow returns if it doesn't fit.

On another note related to developing an operating budget, a friend of mine from work just took a new job as CIO at AutoZone.  I sent him a mail last night to see if they have any sort of marketing or advertising programs that we might be able to take advantage of.  A few sponsors like that would go a long way I'd think.  I also think that if[/u] the plan is to sell the car and donate the proceeds to charity as was discussed some time back, getting sponsors will be easier than if it appears we're just doing this for ourselves.  Another topic for this year's administration to at least begin to put some structure to...