BritishV8 Forum

I received the componets to upgrade my MSII to MSIII/MS3X.
Below are some more pics, one photo shows MSII daughter board on the left and the larger MSIII daughter board on the right. The daughter board contains the processor which is basically the "brains" of the ECU. The MSIII board also contains a SD card reader as well. The idea is to be able to data-log a road test to the SD card so that you don't always need to have a laptop connected if want record data.
Another photo shows the MS3X expander board. This board is used for fully sequential fuel injection, or it can be used for coil on plug (COP) ignition as well. The 3X board has 8 high output driver's, one for each injector and the injectors will be connected to the 3X board BD37 pin connector. Instead of the main MS mother board DB37 pin connector when "batch fire" injection is used.
Other planned mods to the MS mother board include, installing jumpers for CAN communication, adding a baro sensor for constant barometric correction, and adding a circuit for knock sensor input.
The black case is the new larger housing that is required to fit all this added "stuff" in to the box!

Bill

Notice the MSIII board contains a much larger processor!

The white ribbon strips are used to connect the 3X board to the MSIII daughter board.

Nice looking hardware. I guess that explains what the guys have been working on.

JB

Jim M. and clan. I spoke with "Turbo City",(your picture).. They used GM's 2bbl/down drafts, rated 520 cfm@ 3"hg.87'-95'on sbc's.Used GM controller # 7747,re-programmed.Seems like(2) of these should, should feed a 5.7L hemi adequately, with Edlelbrock, dual plane, dual quad set-up. Anybody ? Thanks, Art.

Hey Art,

Check out the Chevy 454 truck/motorhome/marine TBI units.
Have also bored them out and used Holley spread bore butterflies. Gets you into the 690 range if you space the injectors.
Also check out Moates.net for chip burning stuff. You can make the GM ECU stand on its head and shoot watermellon seeds if you want to.

Cheers
Fred

Quite interestingly, I've been through (4) additional companies,since "Moates", regarding this seemingly impossible concept. No definative answers-yet.  roverman.

Some more updates.
While the ECU was apart I decided to add some additional features. Such as a second MAP sensor for constant BARO correction, knock sensor input, and connected the CAN circuits so the ECU and EGT module can comunicate with each other.
The knock sensor system is a bit of an experiment on my part since knock sensors were never used on 215 Buicks. Knock sensors put out a specific frequency that has to be read by a knock module or the ECU. I thought about using Rover knock sensors, however they're signal is sent directly to the ECU. Since the Mega Squirt ECU cannot read a direct knock sensor signal, I decided to use GM knock sensors and a GM knock module.
With the GM knock system the sensor sends it's signal to a knock module. Then the knock module sends a simple 0-7volt signal to the ECU, which indiacates a "yes or no" for knock detected.
One of the main factors for knock frequency is bore size. So I decided to go with a 2.8 L V6 knock sensor(s) and module, because the 2.8L has the same bore size as a 215 V8. Not sure how the aluminum versus iron block will work out, but it may require some experimenting with different sensors!
I installed 2 knock sensors, one in each bank at the coolant drain plug fittings. Also I wired them seperately, so that I could dis-connect one or the other if it turns out that I'm getting a "false knock" signal.

Bill

The purple wires are the jumpers to connect the CAN comm to the ECU main connector.
The black pointer shows the "proto area" where additional circuits can be added by the user for additional features. In this case a zenier diode, resistors, and jumper wires were added for the BARO sensor and knock sensor input from a GM knock module.

This view shows the two MAP sensors. The one on the right is the original sensor and is used as MAP sensor. The sensor on the left is the added in BARO sensor. Also shown is the 1/2 watt 1K ohmn resistor required for BARO input.

Comparison view between the MSII case on the left and the new larger MSIII case on the right.

Assembled MSIII unit.

I have the car up and running on MSIII now:-) Still have some tuning to do (bad weather limits tuning days) however I have it very close already with just some fine tuning to do. Probably will play around with some of the settings just for the heck of it also!
Some observations so far.

1, The live tuning feature in tuner studio is really easy to use! Basically auto-tunes the VE table while you drive, which saves quite a bit of time when tuning the VE table.

2 Fully sequential injection has cleaned up the idle. Before when I had it batch fired I had to run a fairly rich idle mixture (around 13 to 1) in order to get a smooth idle. Now with sequential it idles smoothly at 14 to 1 for less exhaust odor! I suspect that it may get a little better fuel mileage as well. (haven't checked it yet)

3 VE table is adjustable to .1% instead of 1%. I noticed the most improvement in the 1500-2000 rpm range under very light throttle. Because of the very light load, this area is usually difficult to tune in that 1% up or down makes a pretty big difference in AFR. By being able to adjust a tenth of a percent at a time, its easier for auto-tune to dail into the correct air/fuel ratio.

4 Individual trim tables are working as advertised, using the EGT's I have been able to tune the different cylinders at various rpm/load levels. Still fine tuning this area, so far the results have been promising though.
Since all injectors can flow at slightly different rates at times, I'll probably send them in for cleaning and flow testing just so I know where each one is at for fuel flow. Then using the EGT data to "blue print" the injectors to the engine by installing the richer injectors in the leaner cylinders and visa-versa.

5 Auto-tune (closed loop operation) works much better (no surging) with the faster processor!

Overall I'm very please with the upgrade! While the MSII works pretty good, MSIII is definately better in almost every way. Kinda like comparing a computer built in the early to mid 90's to one that was made last year.

Bill

Good stuff Bill! It's great to hear the autotune works so well, I never had much success with it in the earlier units but I didn't give it that much of a chance. It'll likely be mid summer before my car is back on the road but I'm definitely going to take a good look at this setup. I have to add the GPIO board for transmission control and it might be time to upgrade the engine controller as well.

JB

Jim

Yeah I had limited sucess with auto-tune with the old ECU as well. It kinda worked, but in the end it was easier to just turn off auto-tune and tune it manually.
I suspect that it works so well now because of the faster processor. Also when it's doing it's thing, it is making the changes 1/10th of a percent at a time, instead of  over-shooting and "hunting back and fourth" trying to find the correct air/fuel ratio.

I have CAN up and running between the two modules now. Up to this point I had been using USB to talk to the I/O board and using the standard DB 9 cable to talk to MSIII, then opening tuner studio twice in the lap top. With CAN I can read both modules through MSIII now, although I still need to change some of the MSIII CAN settings so that the EGT readings are the same as when viewing them directly from the I/O board though.

Bill

That sounds really good. If I do this right I'll have to run two GPIO boards, one like your setup and one for the transmission. At a couple bills each plus the MSIII that's beginning to get pricey. But, it should work the same as your system using the CANbus and both I/O boards should show up. As you're the trailblazer on that, did you have any sort of difficulties getting it to work that way? In the past the MS stuff has been pretty robust but I'll be wading in pretty deep this time and I'm a little anxious about that. Is there a particular person at JB Performance who is especially familiar with your system? It sounds like my best bet might be to duplicate what you've done and then add the 2nd extender board for the tranny. If there is an unused output on your GPIO that could also simplify things as I'm pushing it to get enough outputs for the tranny solenoids.

I was wondering though, and you probably already posted the info, what was the best thing you found for EGT probes and what did you use for bungs? Some sort of short thermocouple-in-a-stainless-tube? Those couldn't have been cheap either.

I've been sidetracked with building my office space to the point where I've gotten nearly nothing done on the car over the winter. It's about time to get off my butt and get it back in gear. Header mods are pretty high on the to-do list. Plus if I go this route that may push the completion date back to the fall. But I like the results you've gotten with autotune and think this approach has some real potential. Looks like I'd better finish cutting down the seat foams in Edith's TR7 so I'll have something decent to drive this summer.

JB

I did have several questions building and setting it all up. Jean the owner of JBperf is very helpful for when I couldn't firgure things out. He has a web site/forum just for his products http://forum.jbperf.com/index.php. Also there are other users who post helpful imformation  on there as well.

For probes I used these http://www.thesensorconnection.net/egt-probes/all-egt-probes/316-exhaust-gas-temperature-egt-probe-with-compression-fitting Price wasn't to bad for EGTs, they provide technical data on them and they're American made! I know some guys have tried cheaper probes, but have had limited sucess with them ie inconsistant readings. I figured it's better to buy good ones, it's the whole "garbage in garbage out" thing! They came with screw-in SS bungs, I just ground the threads off and had them TIG welded in to the headers.

For the EGT's and I/O extender, I think I'm in it for just under $800. Spendy for sure, nice thing is that communicates with MSIII. Other 8 EGT systems I looked at were over $1000 and are stand alone only, where as the JBperf unit is both stand alone and CAN!
One of the side benefits of having CAN, is that MSIII can be programed to monitor EGT and if the exhaust temp reaches to high of a temp MSIII can add fuel to cool the combustion chambers down. It's an engine safety system that the tuner can use when he/she has EGTs. Looking though the settings the user sets up the perameters for exh temp, how much fuel is added,etc. I haven't activated this feature yet though.

Bill

Sounds good Bill, I have a single stand alone EGT on the opposite pipe from the wideband and used it to tune afr and timing quite effectively. Between the egt and the coolant temp I was able to get a real good idea of how far I could push it without adding too much heat. This would be even better.

Funny you know, this car was originally a very low budget performance car, and I mean low. You'd be amazed at how much money I didn't spend to do the original conversion back in the early 80's. The last few years though it's been getting downright spendy. So once I get it back on the road this time I think I'm going to just plan on driving the wheels off it. I guess that means I ought to spend what I have to to make it right, within reason, and this control system really looks to me like the way to go. I should be able to recover a little money by selling off the MSII systems I have now, that should ease the pain a little.

JB

Yeah, I was on the fence about whether to get a complete MSIII unit or get the parts/pieces to upgrade the MSII into a MSIII. I thought about selling the MSII or even keeping it for use in another car. In the end I decided to go the upgrade route, since I wasn't sure what I could sell the MSII for. It's probably pretty close to the same cost either way.

Bill

I'm not up to speed on the MSIII stuff yet Bill, as I was running MSII v 3 on both of my controllers. But it sounds like there may be some new features that make the newer one desirable and I would then have 2 extra controllers, both with the newer processor daughterboard, one of which has a knock sensor circuit. Probably have to stand on my head and rewire the main connector again. Well, I don't suppose it's a decision anyone can make for me and I'll just have to dive in and figure it out for myself, but it's not a process I especially enjoy so that and transmission control will very likely be the last step in the upgrade process and I'll put it off as long as I can.

I see where the MSIII has only been out for maybe a year. That explains why I didn't know anything about it. Last I heard the next new thing in the works was the UltraMegaSquirt which was supposed to have sequential plus stuff like ion based knock sensing. My impression of it was that it had sort of stalled out. So now there's MSIII which sounds maybe like another intermediate step? Also I'd noted that they had shifted a lot towards SMDs (surface mounted devices) which meant that building the boards was no longer an option and the prices were going up. Did that trend continue in the MSIII?

JB

Jim

You can still buy the MSIII as a kit, I think the daughter board and the optional 3X board are SMD only. Looks like the user can still build the main board though.
Not sure if they are looking past MSIII yet, it has more features then most guys would probably ever use. I have a feeling that they will stay with MSIII for awhile since it's so new.
With electronics you never know when it will stop, kind of boggles the mind:-)

Bill

It certainly does. What doe the 3X board do?

JB

The 3X board is for fully sequential injection, also will do COP ignition. Also has lots of extra inputs/outputs for all sorts of stuff! http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/hardware.html#wiring-ms3
About half way down the page is the externial wiring diagram for the 3X DB 37 connector.
Bill

OK, so you're running the MS3 controller plus the 3X board for sequential (plus it will run COP) plus another GPIO board for the EGT inputs, and then I'd need a second GPIO for transmission control. Does that sound about right? Then I see where your EGT probes cost $50 each. Did they give any quantity discount or did you have to pony up the full $400?

The tab for all that will add up, no doubt about that. But selling my two MS-II controllers should help. Luckily I have a full set of COP coils on the shelf if I decide to upgrade from EDIS. What did you have to change to get the MS3 to work with the MS2 wiring harness?

JB

Yes that is correct, no discount on the EGT's though (I asked). I wasn't sure if I wanted to spend that much coin for EGTs, but  I figured with "non-standard" engine combinations such as ours, the information they provide is very useful. Makes it easier to optimize the combination, I'm hoping for a slight fuel mileage increase for when I'm just putting around town as well.
I haven't checked the fuel mileage yet, the car is on the hoist now. I'm fixing some oil leaks to get it ready for the drive to Reno this summer.

For wiring you can leave probably 90% of the wiring the same as it is now on your BD37. My old DB37 didn't have all of the terminals in it and I needed to add some wires for CAN. Since I had to replaced my main DB37 connector in order to add the CAN circuits, I went ahead and changed the rest of the pin-outs (mostly grounds) to match the MSIII diagram. Mainly just to simplify things.

Bill

OK that helps. Thanks Bill. Maybe I can do this in stages. My MG started out as a low budget build but it's been gradually getting ever more expensive. At some point I'll need to reign in the costs. But, as one of our friends is fond of saying, "It'd be a shame to spoil the car for want of a few dollars..." and we all know where that line of thought leads. I'll have to decide whether to get the controls or the sensors first. Maybe I should just install the bungs for now.

JB

I found out my existing MS v3.0 motherboard will work just fine with the MS3 daughterboard, which replaces the MS2 v3.01 daughterboard I have in the controller right now. That will give me the capabilities to run COP, sequential, EGT inputs, and datalog to a removable SD card. To get the COP and sequential outputs I'll need the MS3X extender board, and to use the EGT inputs I'll need either the JBPerformance IO-X card or a GPIO. Then I need a GPIO to run MegaShift to control the transmission, and it all gets linked together via the CANbus. Finally, I will need a new case large enough to house all of this. I should be able to sell my MS v2.2 motherboard and enclosure, as well as my other MS2 v3.01 card and my earlier MS2 v 2.0 card. My MS1 processor can go with the motherboard. So that should bring in a few bucks to help offset the cost a little. As soon as I understand the IO-X better the plan will be firmed up and I can start putting it into action.

Bill, I want to thank you for the friendly advice and assistance. You've made this process so much easier for me.

JB

Your welcome Jim! You'll have to keep us posted on how it's coming along for you.

Bill, did you go to COP? If you did, what did you use for coil drivers?

JB

Jim

I'm still running EDIS. I have a COP set-up from a 5.3L Chevy PU that I was thinking about using at one time. The EDIS has been trouble free for me, so I figured that I would stay with it for the time being.

Bill

I'm still sorting this out. If I use everything I'm considering it'll be pretty complex. But I have a new set of ACCEL COP coils that would look good alongside the Rover valve covers. They are 2 wire coils though so they need drivers, unlike the LS1 coils which are logic level and can be driven directly by the outputs of the MSX driver board.

My MS v3.0 mainboard will have several heat sink slots open after changing to MS3, perhaps 6 or more. So I'm looking at the possibility of adding coil drivers inside the case. I've begun a spreadsheet with pin assignments for the various boards, but there is now so much material out there that finding just the pin assignment information is not all that easy. Plus the MS3 hasn't been out long enough for the manual to be completed and the situation seems to be about the same for the IO-X board. I'll stay on it though and try to find a good place to upload the spreadsheet when it's finished.

JB