MGB Cargo Bay Car

[BlownMGB-V8]

Lloyd should know me better after driving the Roadmaster.

Jim

[waterbucket]

Jim there were two threads on the MGEx about lowering RB MGB's, one maybe both were written by Lloyd and IIRC Dave Headley. Somewhere in there is the amount that the steering rack needs to be shortened, IIRC it's a couple of inches.
EDIT
I found the thread but it wasn't quite like I remembered;
So now about narrowing the racks like we did for our first V8 conversions. I replaced the 215 Buick I originally swapped in to the car with a 215 turbocharged Olds. The turbo on the Olds stuck up further than the carb/air filter on the Buick so I decided to lower the engine in the car to keep from having to cut the hood (I hate holes, bumps and scoops to cover the carb - do it right!). Dropping the rack 2" further would have done terrible things to the bump steer so I decided to correct the original problem while I was at it. To keep the inner tie rod pivots in the same plane as the control arm pivots required the rack to be shortened 3" (if I remember correctly). To narrow the rack I cut 3" off the passenger side of the rack (the bar that slides back and forth that has the teeth on it). The end of the rack had to be machined to look like the end that was just cut off with a spring seat and external threads for the retaining cup. The housing also had to be narrowed 3". I made a fixture that would hold the housing by the mounts and allow the ends to be moved closer to each other while maintaining an accurate centerline. I cut a 3" section out of the center tube and rewelded the ends together in the fixture. The tie rods had to be lengthened 1 1/2" each by cutting then in half and welding the ends into a piece of tubing.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Please disregard my last post, I misunderstood the post above it. No big deal. Thanks guys for the info and the research. That's exactly what I was looking for. (I actually had forgotten that I'd asked the question)  

That would mean that 8-3/4" should come out of the rack and 1-1/2" should be added to each tie rod. I'll have to look at how much uncut rod is available to be removed, it may not be that much. I haven't torn down and cleaned up the rack assembly yet but it should happen soon.

The Birthday bash went well but we had a bit of a derail with Matthew going in for an appendectomy. He's fine now and should be coming home today which is a relief to us all.

Here's a side view with the front wheels on, sort of.



I sat an early MGB seat in place to see how close it was and should be able to make that work. Might have to cut down the frame a bit.



The next shot shows why I need to take another small slice out of the front of each frame rail.



It's coming along. I need to find a pair of inner bearing spacers (How could those have vanished?), a pair of wheel bearings and rubber parts and get started on the rear axle. I want to have a rolling tub before I switch off to other projects for awhile.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Broke the crossmember using a hydraulic jack to force the frame rails apart so that's a thing. It broke beside the center welds I made, and splayed the crossmember ends downwards so I will have to pull it back into position and reweld it, then check my width again. Don't want to push the wheels downwards and lose my vertical clearance. But even at that it's progress. I just pushed things a bit too far. Or maybe a lot too far. Seems like the first time I ever did that.

We marked the most favorable location for the starter so I have to decide on what starter I'm going to use and then machine the adapter and bell to fit. Then that part can go to final assembly. Might start the rack teardown today.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Yesterday I made this jig to press the crossmember back down and it worked a treat. All welded back up with extra reinforcement around the weld area just in case.



Using surplus materials from the metal rack I welded up the bracket, cut a cherry wedge to match the angle on the top of the xmbr and chained it to the spring seats using the shock arms and bump stops to hold the chain from sliding off. Apply enough hydraulic pressure and anything will move.



I also heated and beat to get a bit more clearance, in retrospect it's the approach I should have taken to begin with. I now have 1/2" of clearance to each side more or less.



Looks like I'll end up with a bit more clearance on the left side where the oil lines go. Also it seems I have *adjusted* the camber a bit on that side as the shock no longer has a perfectly horizontal mount. Since I do have a scrap xmbr I will check the pads on it to compare. Assuming they are perfectly parallel in a straight line I will probably cut-n-shut 3 sides of the xmbr just inboard of the shock mount to correct that. No big deal.



*Then* I'll finally be back to where I was before breaking out the jack the first time but with adequate clearance for the engine. But first I need to make up the body side brackets for the engine mounts. Then I'll be able to roll the thing over without strapping it down.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

So what I've done is add 2 degrees of camber to the driver's side and 3 degrees to the passenger's side. I'm thinking this won't be enough to cause any problems, what with my narrow tires, but would it cause a pull to the right?

Jim

[MGBV8]

3 degrees is quite a bit for a street car & will cause increased braking distance.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Think I will adopt a 'wait and see' attitude on this as it's of lesser importance and can be rather easily corrected later if necessary. Maybe I should hold on to those camber adder LCAs for awhile, as that might be the easiest way, just relocate the outer holes as needed. Also no rust on those parts which is nice.

Below you can see what I ended up with as clearance to the left side of the engine. I plan to run the oil lines through the frame rails but that should give just enough room to attach them. If not I'll make the holes larger.



On the right I didn't need as much space but there is adequate clearance.



Next a shot of the body side of the mount. It's made of heavy gage stainless, probably 10 gage with the ends bent and welded heavily into the frame rail where it will add some reinforcement that will compensate some for the rail width that was lost.



On the bottom I added a full length rib of 1/4 x 1" stainless strap which makes it much stiffer on the vertical axis. Since the two mounts are bridged, on the same plane and located at the ends near the frame rails I judged this to be sufficient to resist bending stresses. The rib also gives adequate thread length for the 7/16" vertical mount bolts.



Looks like it's time to make a decision on the starter. The plan is to visit the corner box store and look at a bunch of them to decide what way to go. I hope to find something compact with a favorable mount. That plus the right gear may be too much to ask for but at least I do have the right gear on the Lexus starter.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

I settled on the '81-'85 Celica 2.4L starter. It has the right gear, a convenient mounting flange, the right nose length, a short body that will allow removal of the oil filter, and adequate power.



Didn't get all the pictures this time but more to come. Only a small opening in the side of the bell was required for clearance which might be convenient for verifying proper bendix operation, call it an inspection window. An additional fenderwell cutout was needed, I will be considering the need for tub reinforcements due to those. And I had an epiphany while puzzling out how to run the oil lines. Since the big plate has a motor mount on it, once it was unbolted from the engine I just bolted it into the motor mount on the car and Voila, instant hole transfer pattern. Locating the holes in the body will be no problem at all now and the location will be precise. Since the oil lines for this engine are 3/8" I will use #6 JIC fittings here for unrestricted flow.

And the *Big* news? I hooked up the battery and fired up the new starter which after only a very slight struggle at first did an admirable job of cranking over that big engine. And it repeated flawlessly. I even shot a (very) short video. Too bad I can't post that here. WOO HOO!

Milestone Achieved!

Jim

[MGBV8]

Upload the video to your YouTube channel, then post the link here.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Seems the video didn't record, might not have been enough space on the sd card. Oh well, have to try again later. I did create a youtube channel though so maybe I'll get energetic and make some shorts. Probably should buy another sd card or two first.. The photos I took yesterday are all washed out by the flash so not very good but here are three of them below. The first shows the starter, oil filter, and the cutout in the inner fender. A pretty large cutout by any reckoning but I think the crossmember reinforcement and the reduced weight will allow it to be adequate for the job.



Next, it looks like there is just enough room to get a wrench on the fittings by going beside the engine. I'm leaning towards face o-ring couplers if the overall diameter isn't too large.



Next the wheel side where the lines will come through. They will need a 90 degree bend and snake back behind the shock to get to an oil bag that I will need to design and build. The exhaust pipe will have to be above the lines so they will need a heat shield. Today I get to oval the holes a bit for better clearance and make a dust cover for the lower bellhousing. Then final fit and the engine can stay at home for awhile.

Jim

[MGBV8]

I leave the flash turned off on my phone.  Only turn it on if actually needed.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Makes sense. I had the exposure set wrong after shooting the video that didn't record. I think I turned the camera off too soon maybe. Here's the dust cover I made from some scrap plastic.



Sheet metal clearance for the starter.



And the tunnel bowed out for the driveshaft coupler.



Sorry about the upside down pictures but I'm in a bit of a rush this morning. Have to get on the road.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Yesterday I started cutting metal to make the steering rack fit. This may ultimately lead to major changes in other areas like the engine mount on that side but I realized that from the start.



Here I've got the pinion past the crossmember and the motor mount to the point where it hits the engine adapter bellhousing flange. If carried through it would come out somewhere near the floor, which is not really preferred. Also to be avoided if I can is a low enough rack position that it interferes with the LCA. We had that issue on the Roadmaster and also on my roadster and I had to make up special front arms for the LCA to get clearance for the rack boots so they wouldn't get sliced.



You can see here the angle of the pinion and where it's headed. Not really ideal but it's a start. I intend to NOT modify the mounting lugs on the engine case which may dictate a low angle. That in turn may end up dictating one of those sprocket and chain assemblies to bring the wheel up to a usable height, and that could actually be a good thing as it would make it pretty simple to lower the wheel for storage by swinging it down out of the way.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Made a cutout in the crossmember with a largish holesaw and plated it in with some 3/16" steel to recover some of the strength lost by cutting the hole, should be fine, added very little weight as the patch was a small piece. Was a little fun forming it but not bad. That let me get the housing into position.



I also removed some extraneous material from the adapter flange and the corner of the engine mount to give the pinion shaft room to sneak past.



This got me into position to cut a 2" hole in the firewall where the shaft comes through, it turns out to be just below the original steering column cone which sounds ok until you realize that come is now 15" further back.



In my spare parts I found 2 top halves for the 1-3/4" split collars, meaning unless I can find the lowers (and I may know where to look) I will have to order new ones. They aren't very costly though.

The exhaust hanger saddles are a bit of an oddball size at 2-3/4". I will take another look around before I order. Again, not really costly.

Looking at the mock-up, I don't think I will be able to remove even the 5-3/4" that I narrowed the crossmember by if I'm to maintain the balance from side to side. But, looks like it can't be helped. Trying to position the rack for minimum interference with the LCA front rails but it's going to be tight. I might have to use the same dodge as on the Roadmaster. Regardless, it's coming together.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

I cut and welded the tube, shortening the housing by 3-1/2". As you can see in the photo below I can't go any further with that and still get it centered. When welding I did that with the unit partially assembled for alignment purposes but then disassembly became tricky due to weld penetration and I had to use a 6" long burr in the die grinder to clean up the inside.  



This shot shows the required machine work on the rack end. The thread is a 20 TPI so entirely conventional for single pointing that to match the nuts. The center recess gets drilled to depth and the outer one bored to spec. That leaves a slot to be milled in the Bridgeport, again entirely conventional.



That leaves 2-1/4" unaccounted for as you'll recall the crossmember was narrowed 5-3/4" (I can re-check that dimension) which means each tie rod needs to be shortened 1-1/8" and I believe there is enough thread to do that and still have adjustability.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

I've been trying to come up with shorter tie rods to match up to the steering arms but without much success so far. Wally over on MGE was kind enough to send me a set of Midget rods, the thought was that they might be the same but shorter. Turns out they are not. Just at a guess I'd say there are two predominant designs for the rack attachment. The MGB design is perhaps the later one and threads a retaining nut and a lock nut directly onto the OD of the rack itself and uses a 9/16" diameter rod. A concave cup and spring loads the matching rod end against the retaining nut via a matching radius on the rod end's back side. Thus the rod is pre-loaded to take up minor play and allow smooth movement.



On the earlier or Midget design, also apparently used in the MGA, AH, and Triumph as well I believe, a ball capture unit is screwed into the rack end and contains the concave seat but no load spring. The rod and rod end are both a good bit larger, using a 5/8" diameter rod.



I tried cutting the ball end of the rod down using the lathe and carbide tooling with limited success. The metal is very hard but does cut. I simply reduced the OD and tried assembling to the rack using the MGB concave seat and nut but there really wasn't enough thread engagement to make me feel comfortable, the movement was anything but smooth and the mechanism just was not working right as the spring had to compress to allow movement off center. So that's a no-go. In theory it should still be possible to reshape both sides of the ball to match the MGB part using a tool post grinder which I do have, but then the rod is still too large in the diameter and is 1/4" short of the ideal length. It's an option but not a good one as much polishing would be required and matching the radius perfectly would be nearly impossible.

Which leaves me with two options. The easiest by far in terms of work would be if I happened across matching tie rods that are 1-1/8" shorter, but what are the chances of that happening? Not great at this point. The more likely one is to simply shorten the rods I have using the traditional hot-rodder's axle shortening method of turning down the center to a pilot, say about 3/16" diameter, cutting it off, drilling the remaining piece, sliding them together and tig welding the joint while between centers. I'd rather not weld steering parts where it can be avoided but this may be my only choice.

Jim

[MGBV8]

What is the anticipated weight of this cargo car?

[BlownMGB-V8]

Hoping to get below 1800 lbs and I think that is within reach. I'm not making that a priority, more a side effect and I think 1500 is possible if I wanted it bad enough. A number of somewhat weighty things will be left out such as wipers, radio, sound dampening, and such and several hundred lbs of bodywork are now gone. No radiator but it needs an oil bag, engine is lighter but tranny is heavier, leaf springs are gone in favor of 4 link and airbags. Early MGB seats are lighter. Things like that. No real need for a hood or much of a grille. Wiring can be simplified, not much need for gages other than gas and maybe a speedo. Wheels and tires are much lighter. I won't really know for sure until it is nearly complete.

Jim

[MGBV8]

I was thinking welded may be a concern on a 3500 lb car, but maybe not nearso on you lightweight grocery buggy.  

[BlownMGB-V8]

No, I expect you are right about that so as long as I build up the weld past the surface of the rods I expect it'll be fine. I've actually bent a steering arm on the MGB without damaging the tie rod and that took a pretty extreme impact. I will be using 308 stainless for filler rod so it will bend before it breaks anyway, and if it hits something hard enough to bend that I expect it won't be drivable anyway.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Turned a 3/16" pilot, drilled a hole and pressed the two together lightly then put between centers for welding



A little TIG work, clean up with the rotary wire brush and the parts are ready



A little grease and reassembly is complete, I think you can probably see the dimples that lock the nuts in place so the adjustment won't change. I didn't take a shot of the spring that loads the cup but it appears to be the same as the one under the copper cup that loads the pinion.



The length is right, I just have to make up the rack mounts and I'm waiting on split collars to do that. I've decided to use a 1-1/2" spacer under the muffler clamp to give me clearance for the rack boots. It moves the rack out a bit but also makes it more of a straight shot to the steering arms. Not sure what effect this might have on the ackerman but I'll look at that when the rear axle goes in.

Now as to the welds and rod strength. It is true that the stainless 308 alloy that I'm using for filler rod does not have the tensile strength of high carbon steel but it is much tougher and resistant to stress fracture. So metalurgically the only risk of breakage comes not from the weld (which would bend but not break) and not from the close adjacent metal which will have become infused with alloying elements during the weld process and thus share that toughness, but adjacent to that where the metal of the rod has been heated. I did let them air cool rather than slow cooling in dry sand as is recommended, however as I did not quench them I think they will be OK. These are forged parts after all and were most likely air cooled when forged. Slow cooling was the method used back when steering arms were cast iron and has been carried over but should not be needed with forged parts. And if the rods were to break it is much more likely they would break either at the threaded end where the threads form a stress riser, or at the ball end where the diameter is greatly reduced.

I did have a tie rod end break once on a drag link. This was on my I-H Travelall monster truck and fortunately it was at low speed. It broke at the threads. I unscrewed the broken end, screwed the rod back into the sleeve and was able to drive home where I replaced the entire drag link with parts having a larger thread size. As Carl says, having a lighter vehicle with smaller tires as the application these will be under less stress.

Jim

[waldog99]

Thanks for the link Jim.  I'll try to follow along over here as well.

Wally

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Wally, we need to promote this site and get more participation if we can. I try to post something over here daily.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

GOOD NEWS Everyone! My two piece split shaft collars finally came in! Now I can finally finish putting the front end together. I have all the parts I need. (he says)

I should be able to anyway. I'm moving kinda slowly this weekend but I hope to get the wheels on. I really, really want to set the rear axle in place and look at it. (I also really, really want to construct a platform on top of the metals rack and use the forklift to place the new air handler up there but that's another story and I can't see getting both done today. Parts to order, other work asking for attention, you know how it goes. HEY! When is my day off?)

So, off to work with you ya lazy bum. I'll get some photos as I build the rack mounts and install it. Those are a really slick setup for the MGB and easy to do.

Jim