MGB Roadmaster

[madmax]

All:

Our thanks again to Jim for taking on the repairs-- he is carrying too much of the burden, as has (too) often been the case.    

I'm going to lay down a little criticism, however, so please accept it as constructive in hopes it will lead to some long term results.  

1) I agree the car is overdue for getting out to the West Coast, but I don't think the car is ready.   We have not done a thorough job of "sorting" the car and it still seems quite capable of breaking-- something major, even-- so I don't think there is much confidence in its doing 3K miles out to California at the moment.  Not without sitting in a driveway for two months.  (This is its history-- it can't be denied.)  

2) While I whole heartedly agree that "something needed to be done" (re: breaking starters), I'm not in favor of the MegaJolt.   I realize this is after the fact, but my objection is purely financial:  it feels like tossing good money after bad.   RAther than have the distributor curved correctly (for Jim's preferred manifold vacuum) we are now bolting stuff onto the wrong distributor so that it will act like the right one.   And adding complexity, to boot.  

2-a)  Similarly, to TRULY get the programmable system to work, the car needs to go back to the dyno.   This is more money.   It will ultimately end up working as best as can be, but only if this time and expense is put into it.   Otherwise, it's just one more "patch job", and no different than the spark control box (which obviously didn't work).   I certainly would NOT leave it programmable for others!  That's just something for people to suspect and screw with.   It needs to be properly programmed and... like any good timing job... left alone!

3) Which brings us to the current timing:  it wasn't working, so  WHY?   Did anyone actually write down where the curve was (after dynoing)?   Except for the static (cranking) setting, which was obviously still wrong (ahem:  broken starters!) the rest of the timing presumably gave the best power and, as Jim notes, the economy was pretty good.   These settings should be marked and programmed into the MJ, if only as a starting point for driveability.  

3-a) I curved that distributor when it was here, and it is a vacuum advance distributor.   That is how it's curved.   For better idle, it was set up for manifold vacuum.  (Jim and others want this, and the big cam seems to require it.)   But, wherever that timing ended up, it obviously wasn't correct because we kept breaking starters.   I can only assume that when they advanced the timing on the dyno to get a good power curve, they would have given it WAY too much static timing in the process.   (Because it has the short mechanical curve of a ported vac distributor, rather than the long mech curve of a manifold one.)   Add in some timing being pulled by the manifold during (esp. hot) cranking and you have a shit-ton of static advance.   (The car does NOT pull extra timing under cranking if ported vacuum, btw.)  This is why starters are breaking:  distributor is incorrectly set up for the job at hand.  

4)  WE are down to the details in the car-- the sorting, shaking down, etc., and fixing of the final minutiae.   It's a painstaking process, but it needs to be done.   WE all put up with idiosyncrasies in our own cars, but a car for public usage needs to be nearly boring in its operation.    Until it is well sorted and reliable, it doesn't seem to be very desired.  (PJ and the WEst Coast guys the exception.    )  

4a) This sorting process-- my take, here-- would likely take a good 6 weeks, with changes needing to be done every weekend to keep up with the car.   Also, it would likely need a good $1000 in the kitty to be able to deal with any and all issues that come up.  (Dyno time, for one.  Maybe some carb parts as well, depending on what is found with the mixture after the timing is perfected.)   And we definitely need to fix the gauges, once and for all.  


That is MY take on the situation.   I take nothing away from Jim-- the existence of the car itself is a tribute to his genius.   But it's time to "up the expectations" once again:  the car can no longer "just go" to fulfill its mission.  It needs to be crisp (it's not-- carb?), user friendly (ahem-- gauges!), and reliable.  (oh, insert anything here:  starters, exhaust, blah blah) to truly achieve its Greatness.    

So... do we suck it up and finally get the car RIGHT-- or keep sending it down the road like some Circus Freak?  Curious, but never quite desirable...

My opinion only.  :-)

M

[mowog1]

Well stated, Max. Thank you.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I owe you guys an update. The EDIS system is installed and appears to work flawlessly. I started the car yesterday for the first time with the new ignition and it fired right up without even a hint of any kickback. This is without the advance signal so it is in "Limp Home" mode. I put a timing light on it and it was showing 18 degrees of advance as it was idling. The MegaJolt is also now wired but has not been tested yet as I have to download the software to my tuning laptop first, but it does power up correctly. As for the rest I'll know more later, can't really say exactly when at this point but I'd think sooner than later.

Brad, if you'll send that gas cap to me as soon as you can I'll get it on the car.

On the gages, I just figured after it gets to LA maybe someone more familiar with them can get them working. They sure won't keep it from getting there.

Max is right of course there are a number of minor issues like the door glass and key lock. I replaced the shifter knob but the steering column is still in the back. Once it's ready for test drives I'll stop by the local automotive paint store and see if they can take a reading on the paint to get some color codes. That may be as close as we are going to get. You guys can take care of the rest.

Anyway, assuming the MJ works correctly we can set the advance for cranking independently of idle advance, dial in the idle for smoothest and best operation with a smooth transition off idle, bring in enough RPM based advance to get good power on acceleration, and then bring up the MAP based advance for cruising. It shouldn't be that difficult. If anyone wants to use a dyno to do that they are more than welcome. This system is WAY more flexible than the old distributor and it's pretty easy to advance or retard the timing a little out on the road in spots on the timing map where it needs it.

I even hooked up a coolant temp sensor while I was at it. There is a provision for changing the timing based on engine temperature if we want to use it, but more importantly it can be used to turn on the radiator fan relays and should be better than the existing switch that has too much hysteresis (either does not come on early enough or stays on long after the car is parked). As it stands that requires only re-routing a couple of wires inside the car, but I want to see that the ouput indicators in the software come on first.

Finally, maybe someone real familiar with clutch systems could be thinking about how to lighten the pedal pressure a bit.

Are we starting to get picky? Yeah, maybe. But after all, it *IS* such a NICE car.

Jim

[madmax]

JIm/Bill:

I was recently asked in a private message, so can we post here again where and to whom Donations to the Roadmaster are sent?   Thx.

M

[mowog1]

Donations to the Roadmaster Project can be made to:

Bill Davidson, Treasurer
7208 W 54th Terrace
Overland Park, KS 66202

913 677-0884
Bill74mgb@yahoo.com

Checks should be made out to:

British American Deviant Automotive Sportscar Society
or
BADASS

[denvermgb]

Is there a Paypal account, too?

Brad

[Dan B]

You did what to the shifter knob???

[BlownMGB-V8]

Um... replaced it? Trust me, you'll like this one better... and it was free. My local AutoZone manager showed me a box of stuff and said to take whatever I wanted so I grabbed a couple of knobs.

I'm surprised none of you guys told me the EDIS was not supposed to give 18* advance unplugged. Anyway when Steve and I made the trigger wheel I was working from memory and I "remembered" 6 teeth from TDC. Guess it's really supposed to be 5, so after TIG welding up the gap, dressing it down and removing the one next to it I now get 8*, only 2 from what it should be. Starts even easier now. (Evidently EDIS gives 0* advance while cranking.)

Unlike MegaSquirt it seems MegaJolt only allows a max of +-5* of trigger offset so this really needs to be close as installed.

I won't be able to do anything more with it for the next 3 weeks but maybe I can do some tuning tomorrow. It looks like the map settings are influencing the timing and the controller does have a rudimentary map already in place. It's wrong of course but at least it's there. But maybe I'll have time to fire it up, get it off fast idle and set the idle advance part of the map. That'll be a good start. Then some time later on I can work on the rest of the map.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Good day today. I pretty much got the GUI figured out and tweaked the timing map to be similar to what I've seen in the past for 215's and other V8 engines. It seems to work pretty good overall and the car drives a little better than it did before. The upper end could use some work still and we'll have to see what we can do on the cruise for economy but at least the tools are there. It seems to like about 30* at idle and with the EDIS basically running no advance below 400 rpm (cranking) it starts very well indeed. I predict we've replaced our last starter. YAY!

I'm going to drive it around town tomorrow running errands, and if I'm happy with the temp functions I'll connect it to the radiator fans.

I will say though that I don't much care for this MegaJolt overall as compared to the MegaSquirt. The software is clunky, crash prone, and difficult. They did things like requiring a Ctrl+ arrow to increase or decrease advance and I've not found it capable of changing advance without first updating the controller so what you see on your map is NOT what the controller is doing until you update. In other words they have made it more or less impossible to tune on the fly. Probably for liability reasons, but with MS and a solid laptop mount you can drive one handed while resting your other on the laptop and give a little tap hear, a little tap there on two keys your fingers are resting on.

OTOH once it's set you're done.

I will copy the program and the tune file on a diskette and put it in the binder with the tuning and install instructions so any time someone wants to tweak something all that's needed is a laptop with a serial port.

Jim

[Citron]

Sounds good Jim.   Be sure to report onthe around town use.

Steve

[lawnvett]

Jim do you plan to drive it any distance? Thank you for your steady work.
Im thinking of driving something down to Key West in 3 weeks, probably my bgt V6, but I could make it the Roadmaster if anyone

 down there wanted it briefly.  I think it is important to have the car at Bill youngs service in May on the 17th.

I've not heard much from others wanting to host the car, it is time to get the requests in!

[BlownMGB-V8]

Here is the report:

Drove a loop that includes about every imaginable type of road today and the car performed impeccably. It starts easily, is easy to drive and well mannered beyond all expectations. The only limits I found were when G forces sloshed the fuel in the carb. There is probably room for improvement but it's plenty good enough and as far as I can tell, better than the distributor in every way. And because the coil-overs are no longer banging against the floor the car was noticeably quieter as well.

After I got back I hooked up the fans to the MJ and got that to work. Only thing is, it makes the LED indicator light stay on all the time. I may see if I can measure the current running through there if I have the chance, but it's clearly less than 1/3 amp because that'd be enough to fire the fan relays. Typical LED current is about 20 mA so if that's all it draws it won't matter. Oddly enough if either of the fan circuits don't have power, when the key is turned off the other fan runs so it is sort of a handy tell-tale in a way. I sent them an email asking about that. Still needs another test drive but I'll see to that soon enough.

I have the console out at the moment but hope to have it back together this week sometime, and then I'm done with repairs. Here's the short list of things I know of that you guys still need to get done:

Door lock: The cylinder is in the console, I think it needs some sort of circlip
Window adjustments, both doors
Steering column: In a box in the back
Gages: I think there is a pigtail of some sort in the console

Don't run it out of gas. It doesn't re-prime very well.

Otherwise, I think it's good to go.

Jim

[lawnvett]

I second that one about running out of gas.   ...    ....     and I speak from experience

Sounds like you had a nice drive today Jim

[mowog1]

I'm willing to bet that the circlip for the lock cylinder is lying on the bottom of the door.

The barrel that currently resides in the console is part number 101 in this diagram.

However, I've never seen this assembly separate "in situ" before....usually if you take the retaining clip off, the lock assembly can be pulled out of the door as a single assembly.

[Dan B]

The pigtail thing is for calibrating the speedo.  I got SW to send it to me when I had the car.  I think there is some issue with the plug...either it is not the right one or the speedo is mounted in such a position as to make it impossible to plug it in.

[danmas]

The speedo is not calibratable. Jim Watson and I took the dash out to plug in the pigtail, but there is no place on the speedo to plug it into.

[madmax]

Rick/Jim,

Isn't what's missing in the lock assembly just a short pin (solid)?  I thought that is what kept 101 inside 102  (103 is what keeps 102+ in the door).  I believe there is a suitable roll pin that can be used instead.   Would very much like to keep using that cylinder, because the car has a very rare matched set of locks!  Very cool and very convenient.   :-)

Nice progress, Jim.  Thx!

M

[BlownMGB-V8]

I have found a premium exhaust gasket for the Stage 2 SE heads used on the Roadmaster. These are made by SCE and are an embossed copper gasket which has a raised sealing bead.

As many are aware good sealing of the exhaust ports is a persistent issue we deal with and the Roadmaster is no exception. Currently it has an annoying "tick" when cold though it does still go away once the engine is well warmed up. We really should fix this before the car goes out to Omaha because if left unresolved the exhaust gasses will eventually eat into the head and create a permanent problem. I have it on good authority that the SCE gasket is the best solution that exists.

The SCE part number is 4171. The link is:
http://scegaskets.com/product/sce-gaskets-part-number-4171/?add-to-cart=42427

The price is $44.59

One of you fine gentlemen needs to order these gaskets and have them shipped to me immediately at:

Blackwood Labs
9406 Gunpowder Rd
Florence, KY 41042

I will install them if they get here before the 14th.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Also available from Jegs:
http://www.jegs.com/i/SCE+Gaskets/829/4171/10002/-1

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Nobody?
If you don't know me by now, I might as well tell you, I'm not going to beg.

Bill Davidson says there's about $50 in the treasury.
It costs us over $100 a year just to have the checking account. It costs us $15 a year to file our annual reports. So we have to raise $120 or more just to break even. The question has been asked, "Do we need a checking account?" and the next question is, do we need a business license? Based on recent participation my answer to both these questions would be, "No." But that is for the membership to decide. Those who still want to be involved should make definite plans to decide these issues at the upcoming BritishV8 meet, but just as importantly to elect new officers. Because I have the form for the annual report sitting on my desk I will send it in this year, but if no action is taken at the meet I will assume the answer was negative and allow it to lapse next year.

Now, about those gaskets. I cannot in good conscience allow something as cheap as a set of gaskets to ruin this car by destroying one of the heads. So I am going to order the gaskets and submit the invoice to Bill Davidson. I think you guys should pay me the filing fee to submit the annual report as well. If anyone has a problem with that, speak your mind.

This means BADASS will be in the red to the tune of something like $40. What you guys choose to do about that is up to you, but if nothing is done the checking account will have to go. They don't allow you to run a negative balance.

If you have any inclination to contribute to the good that this car is doing by appearing around the country and the good will that it is creating, of course now is the time to send a donation to Bill Davidson.

As for the officers, since the car is headed west, might I suggest that some of the western members could be suitable candidates for office? You guys will have to decide, and I won't be there this year to help.

I sincerely hope somebody steps up and does what needs to be done.
Jim

[mowog1]

I'm already in to the Roadmaster for close to $2500 if not more. Several others are in similar shape. It's time for some new faces to step up to the plate.

As I've stated before....perhaps it is time to auction this puppy off and donate the proceeds to charity as was originally planned. I believe that might be harder to do if we allow the NFP status to expire.

Just sayin'.

[rficalora]

Seconded.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Exactly. I have $100K in the car and Terry Schulte has $14K. Others have made significant contributions as well. Those of us who have borne the brunt of the expense so far are tapped out.

And not to make light of our lesser contributors, most of you have done what you could. So maybe Rick is right about selling it. You guys do what you think is best, and I wish you well, but once the car leaves here I am done.

Jim

[lawnvett]

I will mail  a check today,  here is a wild a** idea.  .   .    .

 What  if a small number of new members were invited to join BADASS and the initiation fee were say $500.00 do you think that would help solve this financial crisis?

There may be a few like minded enthusiasts out there who would pay to play.

Car rental companies charge  a bundle to rent a super car for a day of joy riding.

[Dan B]

Do you think you could pull that off, PJ?