Deck plate

[NixVegaGT]

Courtesy of Jim Nichols:



This is called a Deck Plate. It integrates the liners with a deck to weld to the block. This is a good way to raise the deck and tune a piston/rod combo while offering more options for larger bores.

My question is, if I weld on T6 tubes to a deck then set it to the right depth, is it necessary to weld the bottoms to the bottom of the water jackets? How about some 1" long welds around the bore? I guess if I'm going to that trouble then I might as well weld all the way around. OR do you think the iron liners press fit into the portion of the block below the bottom of the water jacket enough to seal the water jacket.

[roverman]

Nic and clan, we're taking a 25 ksi tensile block that was, originally designed for a 3.5" bore and boring well over 4". The remaining "skeleton", will need "ALL" the help it can get ,to stay together. Alum. liners and cast sleeves need to shrink-fit through the top of deck plate, and shrink fit into bottom of bore cavity. I would carefully weld everywhere that might help tie it together. I'm thinkin, with the right build, you might have as much as1,000 psi. trying to separate,(stretch), deck from bottom of bores ? Mean-while, you got the cam and crank, working overtime, to wiggle everything they touch ! Is it any wonder, some motors, just give-up ? roverman

[mgb260]

Nic,Art, You could notch the bottom step in the block that the liner butts against and Tig in the notches.

[NixVegaGT]

You mean like a shoulder at the bottom? Wait, you mean the aluminum liner. That makes sense. Like a shoulder for the aluminum bore tube to sit inside of. I feel that.

[NixVegaGT]

OK so maybe gas weld the bottom of the liner. That would make it easier than trying to get the TIG torch down in there. I honestly think it wouldn't happen.

[BlownMGB-V8]

You'll get less warpage and probably a better bond with the oven braze (solder) method I think.

JB

[roverman]

Jim, I was told oven brazing occours close to melt temp of alum. ? If so, not good for block and no temper left in alum. "If" I can make wet tractor sleeve work, should be least amount of effort.  roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

That's fair. Do we need to use thicker liners then or will the tractor sleeve with piano wire be enough? The other thing I was wondering about was if you wrap the sleeve in wire and then try to press it into the block/deck plate, will it seal? will it work?

[roverman]

Nic', why push -it, when you could screw-it,in? Sleeve-26 ksi. Piano wire-330 ksi.  Got math ? Got Hard blok ? Me make, "custom" tap-last long time. Let's see here.. late hemi pistons/ or LS, if you must, "smart" hemi head, cheap short block. Miss anything ? roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

I was thinking that, I guess I'm wondering HOW to screw it in. It gets screwed into the deck plate too?

[roverman]

Nic and clan, I see no reason, not to. Glue or weld deck plate in place. Finish bore for proper thread percentage and hand tap,(hollow/guided). Coat piano wire with "sleeve retainer", drive sleeve via expanded, internal mandrel or internal sprag/roller clutch. Let anerobic adhesive cure and add hard blok. roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Art, the block is cast, so there is no "temper" to upset. It's as soft and porous as any cast aluminum would be. Solders suitable for use with aluminum alloys are available in a pretty wide range of compositions and melting temperatures. Ever see the fins sag on an oven brazed aluminum radiator? No? Might be due to a careful selection of the solder and flux. And with well fitted parts the solder just wicks into the seam and makes a permanent bond with no unsightly excess. Hey, if it works for radiators...

JB

[roverman]

Jim, Ok instead of "temper", perhaps I should have said, "hardness", like say #356 T6, cast alum.? As I recall, I had a "tensile" test on a 215", coupon,(semi permanent mold), I think around 28 ksi. Perhaps you know of a suitable alloy ? thanks, roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Art, here is an article that is pretty informative:

"Left. Coupons of Alloy 6111 soldered using Zn/15Al and a flux based on complex fluoroaluminate salts. For the purpose of this test, one length of 0.093-in.-diameter solder was placed on one side of the joint, then pulled through to the opposite side with heat."

http://www.aws.org/wj/2004/02/046/

JB

[NixVegaGT]

So I could potentially lay some solder wires around each bore in the water jacket and draw it through by heating the inside of the bores?

[BlownMGB-V8]

Potentially yes. But like the article said, preparation is key. The process requires exactness for consistent results.

JB

[NixVegaGT]

OK considering Art's "tractor" sleeve/piano wire idea with no aluminum bores, I was looking through the Melling catalog again. They sell an "LS1" sleeve that has an OD of 4.18". That's another 80 thou bigger dia. Maybe the piano wire is unnecessary?

[roverman]

Yea graate, Have you priced it ?  Flange dia is....? You want to take a $111. ea., iron alloy sleeve and mill flats,(perfect fit), on the flanges to sqeeze them into 4.24" bore centers? You don't suppose this whole "monster bore" thing, just "mite" be gettin-over conjugated ? You could try the tractor sleeve, with-out wire, even simpler ! Hell, might even work ! I guess it partially depends on how much block filler, side loads and hp ? These are, un-charted waters...beware of "land mines".  roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

That's the one for $111?? Huh...

[BlownMGB-V8]

Generally speaking, with cast iron you want to try to maintain 3/16 of wall thickness on the thrust faces and can go thinner on the sides but should try to stay around 1/8" or better. It's possible to go thinner than this but you risk distortion of the walls with anything under about .150"(opinions will vary somewhat). So using that formula you could theoretically squeeze a 4" bore out of the 4.240" bore centers if you milled flats on the sides and went down to a .120" wall at the thinnest point. That should be plenty strong enough. Oven braze that to a steel deck plate 1/4" or 5/16" thick and dowell pin and seal the deck plate to the open block top with "Right Stuff" sealant , using "O" rings or more "Right Stuff" to seal the bottom of the bores with the end seated securely in the block and you should have a good usable 4" bore engine. I'd add micro-channels for coolant to flow between the cylinders. Straight, no-flange sleeves would be fine, use counter sunk socket head capscrews to secure the plates to the block and deck after assembly. Add o-rings if desired. A 4" bore coupled with the 3.850" stroke of the SBB 350 gives you a displacement of 387 cu. in. or 6.3 L.

JB

[NixVegaGT]

Thanks for the input, Jim. I had totally gapped on the possibility of an epoxy sealant. Good thinking. I think I'm going to give up the 4" bore to another joe and stick to the new hemi bore instead. Putting a 350 crank in the Rover is enough firsts for me. I figured I'd use the deck plate for that shortblock for certain. Easier to solve the deckheight issues and get a decent rod ratio. It's also a bit more practical for the T6 aluminum bores for the sleeve to sit in.

I'm going to look more into the epoxy idea.

[BlownMGB-V8]

You know, I don't think I'd use epoxy. It has a tendency to age and crack. The right-stuff sealant has a very aggressive grip but it remains flexible yet way tougher than the silicones. It is not only a good sealant but an excellent adhesive as well. Once you start using it you're sold.

I might consider building an engine such as this sometime later on. I'd have to find a suitable block to start with though and I also think I'd want to do something to strengthen the head and main bolts. But first I have a 340 to complete.

JB

[NixVegaGT]

But first I have a 340 to complete.

LOL! Me too! ha ha. Good point, Jim. Here's a link to what you were talking about. I just assumed it was some type of epoxy. I guess not! Thanks man.

http://www.permatex.com/brand_right_stuff.htm

[mgb260]

You could just use another head gasket under the deck plate also.

[BlownMGB-V8]

You could, but the sealant will help anchor the plate to the block, it is really very strong. If used for pans and valve-covers for instance, a knife has to be driven around the flange to separate the parts. Use the caulking tube though, the cheese-whiz can puts bubbles in it and makes it weak and porous.

JB