lets talk ECU's

[Truk_Snave]

I shopping for a aftermarket ECU for a rv8 4.6ish project
I so far like the MOTEC m800 any thoughts or ideas ?
going to have a small amount of boost from a SC if all goes well ..

[DiDueColpi]

Depends upon your fiscal horse power and your tuning abilities.
The Motec's are  high end units designed for professional use.
So they are eye wateringly expensive and very difficult to encode for the beginner.
Having said that. If your wallet is up to it and you have the patience and acumen to tune it. They are excellent ECUs.
The favorite here is the Megasquirt line of ECUs.
They are reasonably priced, endlessly configurable and tune-able by the average human.
On line support for the Megasquirt products is huge. Which is a big advantage for the nooby tuner.
My favorite entry level systems are made by SDS.(simple digital systems)
The SDS doesn't have the scope of control that some of the more powerful systems advertise.
But it is vastly easier to set up with it's own hand held controller (not a cumbersome laptop)
And unless you want to buy your dyno operator a new house you can't out tune one of these systems.
Electromotive is another popular player.
Their TEC systems are more pro biased than the Megasquirt and SDS but cheaper than the Motec offerings.
Tuning still has a mountainous learning curve but their support line is excellent.
And thats all I know
Cheers
Fred

[Truk_Snave]

 -- moved topic --

[Moderator]

I don't have any experience with MoTeC.  I've only used MS3-Pro, and I'm still low on the learning curve with that ECU.  I like it so far!  The TunerStudio software that's included with MS3-Pro is extremely easy to use. In fact, it's just plain fun to use.  Even just here on BritishV8 there are at least three or four people with more MS3 experience than me, ready to answer my questions. That's nice.

Looking briefly at MoTeC's website, one thing that stood out is that the m800 only has six ignition outputs. I guess that limits you to running in wasted-spark mode, doesn't it?

[MGBV8]

Wasted spark? Sounds like my Evo Harley.  Never quite wrapped my head around that. Seems like a waste.  

[tr6turbo]

The new Holley stuff looks very good.  I saw a demo at PRI in December.  It will be more expensive then MS but very user friendly. I have been using Accel DFI for years but they have not updated it in a long time.

[Anarchy99]

I've used the FAST XFI stuff on a few projects and I'm using it on the sprite as well. It's got all the features you'd ever want and the support from the guys at comp/FAST is top notch. before I changed the Camaro over to a roots blower, it was fast xfi and a procharger and it handled the boost quite well.

[DiDueColpi]

I've always meant to give the FAST stuff a try ever since it came out.
Just never ventured away from what I know.
The hardware is pretty standard. How is the programming?
Is it fairly intuitive or is it all pretzel logic?
Cheers
Fred

[Anarchy99]

It's fairly straight forward. The fast xfi 2.0 stuff makes alot of tuning easier but you still need to go in and trim your stuff out to get it just right. The tuning DVD you can get has alot of walk throughs and makes it pretty easy to understand.

[Moderator]

If I understand the FAST literature... their EFI ECUs aren't capable of directly controlling ignition, right? So for example, if you want a coil-on-plug 8-coil ignition system, it'll have to be controlled and programmed through a second ECU. FAST would be happy to sell you that second ECU, but it'll cost ~$650 on top of what you've already spent. Ref: http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/ximtm-ignition-kit-w-harness-ford-5-0-4v-coyote-coil-on-plughtml/

Going back to the MoTeC m800, as mentioned in the original post, and to Carl's comment... As I understand it, the MoTeC ECU can be connected to eight coil-on-plug ignition coils, but it doesn't have enough discrete (and tunable) ignition outputs. So you use four of the six available outputs, and you hook each of the four outputs to two coils. Right? And to make that workable, since those two coils will fire simultaneously, you're stuck with a system that fires both of the coils every time the engine rotates. In other words, both coils will fire on the exhaust stroke and on the compression stroke for their respective cylinders. Right? One of the reasons we want eight coils is so that each coil has longer to recharge between sparks, but now we're compromising that. Please correct me if I'm all wet.

[Truk_Snave]

Fantastic info fellas keep it coming

[DiDueColpi]

You are absolutely right Curtis.
For the Motec to run a multi coil system on anything bigger than a six requires a wasted spark setup.
But that's not a bad thing.
Coil saturation hasn't been an issue since points went away.
Standard variable dwell or constant energy ign systems only require around 3 milliseconds to fully saturate the coil.
That means that one coil can sustain full saturation up to 40,000 rpm on a 4 stroke engine.
With a wasted spark setup you still get 20,000 rpm. Should be more than enough.
There are several reasons that COP systems are used on automobile engines and none of them are for performance enhancement.
With emissions compliance standards tightening every year manufacturers are no longer allowed to produce a vehicle that requires a
"tune up" before the emissions warranty period expires.
 A conventional distributor type ignition can't make it to the end of the warranty period without some servicing that the manufacturer would end up paying for.
Also a conventional distributor system introduces a significant amount of EMI that is no longer allowed by the FCC.
It disrupts sensitive circuits in the car as well. Such as your CAN communications, ABS sensors,Nav systems etc.
The big one though is cost.
COP is cheap for the manufacturer. Lower initial cost, fewer warranty claims and just one system for every market and multiple engines. Tweak the programming and away you go. That's why wasted spark showed up first. It's cheaper than coil per cylinder but the necessarily long plug wires became a liability for warranty and EMI.
So now we have true COP, with few exceptions, buried deep into the cyl head for EMI shielding.

Long live the mighty "B" cam
Fred

[kstevusa]

YES "THE MIGHTY B CAM"   With the demise of the 2 stroke trimmers and other utility engines, The "B" has another rebirth in the 4 stroke utility engine market.  Can you imagine holding 400HP under your arm!  :-)   Hijack Alert

[roverman]

Typical Craigslist deal, buy most of the parts to build a 540" motor, but NO "B" cam ! As a concillation prize, I received a semi-vintage/2002+yr/ 4500 style TB,(2,000 cfm. of course), wiring harness, aka. batch of snakes, ECU and ignition box/module thingy, for free! The Fast tech guy, said it was capacitve discharge, and would fully control the ignition. I wasn't intuitive enough, to mention c.o.p.? Tech guy said I could download from website, tuning software ? Since build will be sorted on an engine dyno, I'm thinking, smarter than me, EFI tuner guy, should be there ? Cross my fingers, and not the wires, roverman.

[Anarchy99]

You are correct that if you want the FAST to control the coil on plug type stuff, you will need the XIM box also. If you are using them to control a distributor, you don't you just need the distributor set up correctly that comes with the XFI setup. I really like that the FAST XFI stuff can use their touch screen also to display engine info and various other data logging stuff. I may hate it in the sprite, but we'll see.

[Moderator]

Not meaning to get over-focused on the question of eight ignition drivers vs. four (for a V8), but I have a couple follow-up questions:

1) coil life and reliability? Do they run cooler and last longer when they're required to fire half as often? Don't spark plugs last longer on non wasted-spark engines?

2) what is the value of having eight individual trim tables? I'll probably never do it, but I could put EGT probes on my headers and then fine tune fuel and/or ignition maps to correct imbalance in my eight cylinders caused by imperfectly designed intake manifold, head ports, and headers. In wasted-spark mode, I'd lose the ignition-trim feature that's built into my ECU. I don't care... but maybe a more serious tuner or racer would. No?

[DiDueColpi]

Sure the coil life would be reduced when it fires twice as often.
But is it really an issue?
A V8 distributor ignition coil fires 8 times more often and they live remarkably long lives.
As far as heat goes, they probably do run hotter. But if that was an issue why do the OEM's put them in the hottest place on earth?
Plugs do last longer when they aren't wasted :-) but not by a big factor.
The individual trim tables are nice to have and are useful if your setup has a glaring deficiency. But for most it's just bragging rights.
There is no reason that a wasted spark setup can't do a per cylinder timing. It's just programming.
Any tuner who thinks that they can set up the trim tables without a dyno and a full complement of guages is fooling themselves.
Besides, if you get it perfectly tuned today, at a specific rpm and temp. and air density etc etc etc. By tomorrow it will have changed. So to really be of any use it would have to monitor and compensate continuously.
I don't know of an aftermarket system that is capable of that. Some OEMs do but I don't think the programmers ever get to see sunlight again.
Don't get me wrong, the more tuning options you have the better. It's just that even the entry level systems capability, far exceeds the average tuners abilities these days.
Cheers
Fred

[Truk_Snave]

Anybody ever seen or used one of these ?
http://www.wolfmotorsport.com.au/wolf-ecu-s/v550-wire-in-kit.html

[quietone]

It seems like a lot of the tuner guys are using GM computers.  They say it makes sense to take advantage of the best programmers in the world building the most powerful automotive computers available. And they are cheap!

[Truk_Snave]

tell me more please
like where can i find out more ?

[DiDueColpi]

Check into Tunercat, Moates and CATS tuner. I think I have them right. haven't used them for awhile.
Moates and Howell engineering supply hardware and tuning accessories.
Tunercat and CATS tuner have the software.
Using a GM ecu gets you some pretty sophisticated hardware for cheap.
The learning curve is steep as it's a little different than programming an aftermarket ECU.
But the results can be outstanding.

Cheers
Fred