Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor

[DiDueColpi]

Great find on that elbow Joseph. I especially like the low profile box type.
Bill,
Using the GEMS injection is going to be problematic. The ECU is coded to the body computer of the vehicle that it came from.
It won't run at all without a signal from the BCM.
It keeps a vehicle that breaks down every 15ft from being stolen and driven 20ft.
The ECU can be unlocked and reprogrammed to work, but it's very expensive.
Factory fuel injection systems are very inflexible and resistant to changes out of necessity
So an aftermarket tuneable system makes more sense.
Megasquirt and SDS are two injection systems that I use a lot.
Both are relatively inexpensive and easy to use once you get over the initial learning curve.
You can use the GEMS manifold or any other for that matter with either system.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Fred

[GT8MX]

Megasquirt doesn't know or care about catalytic converters.

Outstanding.  The GEMS system uses 4 O2 sesnsors - 2 upstream of the catalytic converters and 2  downstream of them.  Another reason to use Megasquirt (at least not the factory EFI controller).

Using the GEMS injection is going to be problematic. The ECU is coded to the body computer of the vehicle that it came from.

Megasquirt and SDS are two injection systems that I use a lot.

That seals it...Regardless of the induction system I end up using, I will use some aftermarket tuneable controller.  I'm going to start researching Megasquirt and SDS.  

Thank you all for your guidance!  This has been terrific.

Bill

[mgb260]

I would use a angle iron jig for drilling holes for bungs and chamfer top of holes. Tight slip fit and precut angle on bottom of bung. Then use this filler rod that anyone can do with a Mapp torch. A lot of guys use JB weld or Lab metal Epoxy. It is most important to have the fuel rail and intake holes identical. There are hold downs on the fuel rail to intake. The newer LS3/LS7 injectors are rated at 40lb and are much shorter and use the same o rings.

http://www.aluminumrepair.com/video_new.asp

[GT8MX]

use this filler rod that anyone can do with a Mapp torch - www.aluminumrepair.com

I was not aware of this.  Thanks.  Their site says they also have brazing rods for cast iron.  I 've tossed out cast iron pieces beause I don't / can't weld cast iron and it wasn't worth it to pay somebody else.

[BlownMGB-V8]

You can weld cast iron pretty easily with nickel rod. It's kinda expensive but works well.
The fluxless aluminum brazing rod will discolor and darken so your repair will show up, and it isn't as strong as a TIG repair.

Jim

[75sixer]

Years ago I was on this forum but mostly lurked without posting but have recently returned and now may have something of interest. My project is installing a Rover 4.0 into a TVR 2500M. The fit is extremely tight so there's been a fair amout of fabrication including building a set of headers that go up and forward. Hood clearance has been very tight so I've ended up fitting a Thor manifold but scrapped the throttle assembly and used a pair of Volvo throttle bodies. Both bodies sit close to tehvalve covers on adapter blocks that change the Volvo shape into the rectangular shape of the plenum. The car is a long way from being on the road but it does run although needs tuning. Engine management is Megasquirt II using the original wasted spark coil packs. If anyone has a Megasquirt msq file for a Rover 4.0 to share I would appreciate it very much. Now the only thing too tall is the dip stick and that's easy.

Appreciate all the creative projects in this forum!

[DiDueColpi]

That makes for a pretty sweet looking low profile intake Rick.
I'm a Volvo guy so using the white block throttle bodies makes me happy!
And the WOW (weird or what) factor when you open the hood is worth it alone.
Welcome back. Kinda looks like you belong here.

All hail the mighty "B" cam.
Fred

[Moderator]

That's so very cool!

[BlownMGB-V8]

I like it. Very..... different.

Jim

[75sixer]

Thanks. Still very much a work in progress and looking forward to more moderate temperatures to get back on it. I'm in Maine and this coming week is forecast for highs about 20 degrees.

This is a picture of what the engine bay looks like now. Have built a thermostat housing that mounts to the front of the intake and connects to an aluminum tube to the radiator. Used a small framed Denso 105A alternator and an spring loaded idler to tension the belt. The headers are something I cobbled up from stainless tubing connecting to 2.25" twin stainless pipes. She's quite loud with the crack of a Nascar machine and that needs to be addressed. Engine managemnet is Megasquirt reading a toothed wheel on the balancer for ignition timing. Transmission is a T5.  Lots of sorting, cleaning, and rerarranging yet to be done.

[Truk_Snave]

Gems system does not talk to a becm
Thor on the other hand is another matter :-)

[DiDueColpi]

I'm afraid it does Kurt.
The ECM recieves a digital code from the BECM to enable the injectors.
This happens over pin 25 at the ECM.
Without this code the ECM will not power up.
It can be defeated by reprogramming. But usually the cost doesn't make sense. Unless you are keeping it in the Land Rover.
Cheers
Fred

[Truk_Snave]

Fred
in a discover series 1 there is no becm
there is however a  multi funtion unit that does stuff like turn signals etc

I looked and pin 25  at connection C1007  is for coil #1

[DiDueColpi]

You're right Kurt,
The Disco 1 doesn't use a BECM.
The early ones used the CUX14 injection without any security features.
The Disco 1's that used GEMS started in 1996 and had a security code fed to them from the theft alarm unit.
Its pin 26 ( I know, I said 25. didn't have my glasses on straight I guess) @ C1017
It's the same issue as the Range Rover.
No coded signal, no start.

[Truk_Snave]

right a P38 does have a becm
now if you  look at the schem fro a disco  you will notice there is a provision for {"with out anti theft } do this you will need to ground out pine #26 at c1017 this  will work and has been working for the past 12 years since i first did it :-) please refer to diag A1 PAGE 9

 if I follow the diag not having this ground path the starter relay will not work ..
from the ETM

"On manual transmission vehicles, a ground path is provided directly to the Starter Solenoid Relay's (K137) 86 terminal. On automatic transmission vehicles, a ground path is provided to the Starter Solenoid Relay's (K137) 86 terminal via the Park/Neutral Position Switch (X16"

[DiDueColpi]

Hey Kurt,
Are we talking NAS vehicles.
I don't have anything like that on my diagrams.
And I just tried it on my 97 shop truck and it won't fire.

[Truk_Snave]

what is your "shop truck "?

[Truk_Snave]

Im using Electrical Troubleshooting Manual Part No LRL0028

[DiDueColpi]

1997 disco
Ended up with a fault code P1621 and all the remotes had to resync.

[NCtim]

I'm really interested in this. If it works then I can use the system from the 1996 I have on the 4.0.

Tim

[Truk_Snave]

it works been done for many years go look up the info in the manuals listed ^^^^^^^
I not going to list a how to on the web but the info is in the manuals :-)
or look a cat by the name of AFIROVER  on discoweb he is the wiss at this stuff
..

[DiDueColpi]

I think that we have our wires crossed, as they say Kurt.
You and AFIROVER are referring to the starter lockout provided by the anti theft system "spider". And it can indeed be bypassed with a simple ground wire in the disco only. Land rover also sells a bypass plug for that unit that does exactly the same thing. That gets the engine to crank but it won't turn the ecu on.
The Lucas Sagem GEMS ecu must receive a security code from the 10-AS anti theft module in a Disco or the BECM in a p38. This code is in numerical form and can be any # from 0 to 65535. Once the ecu confirms the code it turns on the check engine light to indicate that it has be enabled. You can check for it on pin 26 with an oscilloscope. It's a square wave output.
Here is a direct quote from the manual.

"Security learn mode: When the ignition is turned on, the BECM, providing it is in receipt of a valid mobilization code and is therefore not in an alarmed or immobilised state, sends a coded signal to the GEMS which the Gems then compares against a mobilization code it has stored in it. If the two codes compare OK, the Gems will allow the engine to start. This forms the basis of the immobiliser. If the GEMS ECU, the BECM, or the lockset & key fob is replaced or other data in the BECM is changed, it may be required for the GEMS to re-learn a new mobilization code. This is done by using this function to put the GEMS into Security learn mode whereby the next coded signal it receives is not compared but is instead stored as the master copy. When security learn mode has been entered the ignition must be turned off and turned back on to trigger the BECM into sending the code. The GEMS will check the incoming code and should accept it; however, if there is an error no matter how slight in the codes makeup, the GEMS can reject it, in which case there will be no valid code stored. This situation can be checked by looking at the security learn status in Inputs - Engine and Other which denotes whether the system has a valid code stored or not".

Other than having the anti theft lockout removed from the ecu by RPI or some one similar. You can utilize the 10-AS module from a Disco and have it and the GEMS synced together. Or use a product from an Australian company called Mobi-lize. It's quite clever but you still need to visit some one like me with a "Test book" "Autologic" or "Blackbox" etc. to allow a security relearn.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't want someone to go to the trouble of installing a GEMS system only to find out that it won't run in stand alone mode.

Cheers
Fred

[Truk_Snave]

Fred

I don't disagree with what is written but in practice  I have found it not to be all that accurate .
now that might be that I have a Test book and a black-box solutions here that makes me both dumb and not to intimidated by this issue
if it was true you would not be able to swap out ecu from disco to disco (p38's are another matter) with out having to do anything  my last 3 off road rigs have had the alarm ecu removed and one had dual ecu's( one has been reworked and one is stock ) with a spare back at the trailer that we will swap out on the trail( if needed )  with out any fancy gear :-)
K