Lotus 907/Rover V8 head swap

[NixVegaGT]

OH! Ok. that makes a ton of sense. Cool! Then I can weld the T6 bores on the bottom of the deck too. That will go a long way to seal up the top real tight. I guess we'd need plates for the intake too, if using the Buick heads. For the Buick head I'd only really need 1/2". The it could be welded to the deck of the block with a 40 thou gap for better weld penetration and that brings the Rover block up to the 300 deck height of 9.5". Once they have the pattern then we could use any thickness, right?

[BlownMGB-V8]

Might as well go with the P76 deck height if you can get a big runner P76 single plane or plates to run the EFI. Really you can make the deck anything you like going that route. Base it on your choice of stroke/rod/piston combo. 3/8 seems like a good starting point, remember the top of the cylinder gets the hottest so you don't want to go too thick. Downside, raising the deck height decreases hood clearance by more than the deck increase due to the manifold spacers.

JB

[roverman]

Yea Nic, If your gonna "slam" that Vega, might as well go dry-sump? Jim, is not the formula, deck height increase divided by 1.414? I'm leanin towards a "tractor sleeve", piano wire and hard blok. 2010,not so boring,  roverman

[87gn@tahoe]

Just an FYI- The gal at TA performance tole me that the 300 deck height is 9.543" and the 231 V6 deck is 9.535"

[BlownMGB-V8]

Your formula is correct Art, but if you use spacer plates to use say for instance a Rover EFI intake that doubles the distance.

JB

[NixVegaGT]

Good to know, Wesley. That's the first time I've seen that number. It's always listed as 9.5". Thanks.

[roverman]

Nic and clan. Not sure how any of this pertains to 907 heads on a Rover ? If TA is correct, than std. "300" deck is .583" above std. Rover ? Aussie int. for TA heads on a 300 ? I'm thinkin if one is "bent" on using cast block, might as well step up to 340/350? Hood problems not with-standing. If we read-back, the TA head was"supposed" to be here months ago and will probably be more months before there readily available? Aussies have first dib's, because they at least, partially funded ? I think if 350 sbb folks, were after TA int's/heads like OZ, they'd have something to show for it ? 2 cents/no change,roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

That's fair. It's a good idea to start a new thread for the deck plate. I can start one to organize any development that happens for it. That was why I started the "907" thread in the first place. The only connection is the deck plate idea, that you had, to secure the heads to the block. Good idea. AND you're point is you need it to be tall enough for the Time Savers.

[roverman]

Clan, "Time Serts",  Lay a 907 head gasket on a Rover deck, and you'll get the idea. Lots of, over the edge. Periperal plate or deck plate is mandatory. A deck plate could conceivably be,"bolted in place", including anerobic adhesive, then put flanged liners through the "sandwich",  stand back in awe.  roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

stand back in awe

LOL!! That's precious.

[NixVegaGT]

I was thinking about what you were saying about installing the 907 head as a kit. The tough part is that you sorta need to eliminate the front cover because of the timing belt rig, right?

[roverman]

Seems like minimally, you need a damper seal/housing that seals to front of oil pan ? Since we're using HTD belts, seems natural to drive things like ext. oil-pump/opt. dist.? I opt. for Hz. H2O pump. roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

How about an electric oil pump? I think that could be done also.

JB

[roverman]

That is thinking out-side the box, but I think electric is better suited for coolant,(hi vol./low press.). Oil being relatively hi- press/lower volume, will be pretty specific about it's pressure curve. I'm "itchin" to try that sbm. "gerotor" pump, along-side the pan. I would really like to use oil as the coolant, but too many "first" on the build already> roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Oil as the coolant? Hmmm...
OK, if we reduce the lubrication oil requirements... fractured rods with caged needle bearings, same at the top. Needle bearings for the cam, roller cam and roller rockers and all that's left are the mains. Everything else can be low volume low pressure and the coolant pump (using oil) could easily satisfy that requirement, leaving only the mains using higher pressure oil. Solve that one and we're home free. Something like a nitrided/hard chromed journal and a diagonal split outer shell insert maybe.

JB

[roverman]

Jim and clan. Fractured,(straight)/machined outer races with no inners. No needles on wrist pins, needles on mains. I suspect fairly decent pressure/low volume,(small feed holes), will be required to fill in the "time window", phasing of supply hole alignment. I like the idea of higher boil temp,( no steam pockets) and reduceded thermal losses ? I  think the "Coates", rotary valve motor used conventional bearings. Don't know anything about the "Walker waterless coolant". roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I don't know if anybody ever tried to develop a cap style roller bearing, so far I've not been able to find any evidence of such an attempt, including the patent database. The problem is always going to be with the load imposed on the races at the split. Split cages for the rollers do exist and it is reasonable to think that the inner and outer races could be designed in such a way as to allow the mating of two pieces to present a continuous race surface to the rollers. I can think of a couple of ways that this could be done. At least one approach could be carried out using readily available parts. Once that is accomplished the rest of the low-pressure low-volume oiling system is simple and oil requirements are very minimal. (Think 2 stroke engines, oil carried by the air/fuel mix or incrementally injected into the main bearings. Very little oil needed.)
At this point, separation of the crankcase and your oil cooled cylinders is no longer necessary and a simple electric circulation pump can serve both needs at once.

Jim

[roverman]

Jim, I think "fractured" outer housing should work. As far as I know, 2 strokes use "open design" of needle bearings. They can use needles on wrist pin because their, peak pressure during power stroke is considerably less than 4 stroke. I suspect because of their, enhanced flow through the crankcase, aids in needle lubrication/cooling. I don't see how a split inner race would work. I don't think their necessary on properly prepaired crank. I consider larger loads on outer race as compressise/extensive vs. lateral arc, and these loads will be greater than a comparable displacement 2 stroke.  roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

For the most part I agree. Which leaves the issue of the parting line on the mains, and the aluminum block. For that you need a bearing shell, and done properly a 2 piece shell with diagonal splits might do the trick. Since bearing races are stress-relieved it should be possible to precisely slice two shells to produce a single mating pair using an abrasive wheel. There are other details of course but that'd be the gist of it. Then for lubrication, the most reliable method is flood, followed closely by injection or splash, but as we know from sealed bearings, maintaining an oil film is much less of an issue than it is with a sleeve bearing and practically any oil supply at all is enough. In fact, considering the windage, just the oil passing through a dry sump might in fact be enough for the rotating assembly. Doubtful of course if any speed is to be produced (Harleys have long used a small plunger type oil pump) but nonetheless possible.

JB

[roverman]

Jim, I thinking , just like fractured rod  tech. for outer housing. The "part line" produced is basically at the molecular level, so metal pic-up should'nt be a problem. I don't see why the bearing housing partline needs to be indexed to rod/main cap part lines ?.  A reasonable crush amount should be adequate. Needle bearings won't "grab" the crank journals like inserts do. I have a retired tool maker friend, and in their shop, they would "freeze/cryo", the bearing (no inner race), place in a mill vise, bang with a hammer and "viola", low tech fractured bearing ! I would go so far as to, "score" side of housing at centerline to assure the fault line. roverman.

[roverman]

Jim, I'm thinking , just like fractured rod  tech. for outer housing. The "part line" produced is basically at the molecular level, so metal pic-up should nt be a problem. I don't see why the bearing housing partline needs to be indexed to rod/main cap part lines ?.  A reasonable crush amount should be adequate. Needle bearings won't "grab" the crank journals like inserts do. I have a retired tool maker friend, and in their shop, they would "freeze/cryo", the bearing (no inner race), place in a mill vise, bang with a hammer and "viola", low tech fractured bearing ! I would go so far as to, "score" side of housing at centerline to assure the fault line. roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Sounds workable Art. Since your friend has experience with that it'd be natural to see about having him make up a set. Just have to pick the right size. What do you think about the thrust bearing? Timken maybe?

JB

[roverman]

When you say Timken for thrust, you mean radial-needle ? To be honest, hadn't thought that far. While we're on it, how bout a crank thrust plate on front side of #1, with needles both sides, behind damper ?  roverman.

[mgb260]

Art, have you seen the Q45 Infinity heads on a small block chevy?

[MGBV8]

My, my, my.....