Tr7 v8 - How to lower the engine and move it back

[WedgeWorks1]

I am bringing the engine back 1-inch and until I get a dry sump arrangement plan on keeping it at the stock height. The bell housing bolts for the transmission will get real tight to fit but should be ok. The headers might come closer to the steering shaft but this will be verified when I mock everything up.

[TRip]

Mike, that's exactly what I would like to do as well!

Please keep me updated as you go through the process.  I'd love to here more about your project.

Trip

BTW.  Did you custom make those mounts?

[WedgeWorks1]

Trip-The brackets were from and made by TSI and are OK for fit but needed some holes opened up and will need some spacer for each of the upper bolts. I welded on some extensions for the rubber engine mount and also extended the gusset too. It was not that hard at all. The original Rally TR7V8s moved the engine back 2-inches and really hammered the transmission tunnel to death but they aslo made it so just the gearbox without the bell housing could be changed out so they did not need access to the bellhousing to engine bolts. As a result of oving the engine back you will need to shorten the drive shaft, move the bolt holes in the floor for the transmission cross member, either get a shortened shifter assembly or notch the hole in the tunnel, and the headers can add to the mix too! I like the idea of a chevy LS1 type engine in a TR7. Are you still thinking chevy or rover?

[Dan B]

Hey Trip,

Where are you located?

Dan B

[TRip]

Hello Mike,

It seems that most tr7/8 owners are not attempting this relocation and I got the impression the minor gains weren't worth the effort.

The fact that you're doing it and that you say it's not that hard is making me reconsider.  Here's the thing, yes, I am still thinking about a Ford 4.6 or LS1.  I'm now also considering a Ford 302.  Good strong, reliable and tonnes of performance parts.  Easy to make crazy HP!  The Rover motor is an awesome, light and very capable motor... I have concerns about the porosity issues in some of the motors.  Tho I know that they can refit those blocks with "top hat" liners which are flanged at the top and seals to also help prevent the other Rover issue - dropped liners.  I am amazed at the availability and variety of quality performance parts.. You can even use some of the Buick/GM/Chev components.

One bit of advice I would give if you go the Rover direction... From what I've seen the "Coscast"(originally designed by a CO called Cosworth and now by Mahle) blocks that are being used to eliminate the porosity issue, are actually now coming back with the same problem.  So I can't justify the high cost of these blocks.  If you decide Rover, look for a newer engine rather than an old unit, and have it inspected before you drop it in the car IMHO.

The issue with the Ford and LS1 is the weight(especially the LS1), height and length... Relocating the block back and lower, in this case becomes even more appealing with these heavier motors.  Don't like the idea of the engine ahead of the front wheels and sitting on the front bumper!!!

How to access the clutch easily, when needed if the bell housing is near the firewall?

Sounds like a shortened shifter housing would need considerable fabricating.  I wonder if any company supplies them for various Trans?

Trip

[TRip]

Hey Dan B... I'm just a little bit north of South Charleston, WV.... Just a short little drive.

Canada.

Trip

[WedgeWorks1]

Trip-Believe it or not but I own (2) 1980 TR8 coupes that are genuine "retail" cars. They both have started off somewhat stock. They are also about 38 cars apart from each other in the production run. I have owned my white coupe since 1998 and it is being turned into a road going rally car. The other is a pageant blue coupe that I picked up about 3 months ago and is my 30th wedge and 5th TR8 all starting in 1986! The car is a rare color that is going to be kept stock as much as my patience will allow. The rally car has the original motor that needed a rebuild but is being replaced with a TR8 Rover V8 built to the max for a 3.5 liter; .060 over bore, 12.5 compression, 520 lift cam, over sized valves and ported heads, roller rockers, tubular push rods, offset grind crank, chevy 327 H-Beam connecting rods, double roller timing chain, and fully blue printed and balanced. The engine has about 2,000 miles on it and last dyno was 320 hp with 340ftlbs of torque. I seem to be the only one moving the rover rearward in a TR8. Group 44 TR8s, Rally TR8s and other factory racers moved the engines 2-inchs back and made a huge handling difference. I think for a TR8 with all the parts that work why bother is the attitude by owners.





The rover block you are talking about with the porous issues are the 4.2 and 4.0 liters that had the liners separate from the casting dumping coolant out the exhaust ports when they would heat up to operating temperature. I had seen this happen about 5 or 6 times. I stay away from those blocks. The later blocks after the late 90ies were fine unless you do some radical honing or boring of the blocks that might in a rare opportunity break the liner/casting bond. The top hat lines are a neat setup and with some head gasket with o-ring combinations should hold back any issues with coolant. I still think a hot engine would be a built 4.0 or 4.4 liter with bore/stroke combinations.

I have a friend with a "disgusting" Group 44 replica TR8 running a small block dart chevy 427 block de-stroked to a 383 and shoveling power in by a huge turbo. He has the power going through a T56 ending at a Ford 9-inch Detroit locker. Here is the deal moving the engine back no matter what it is; Rover, Ford or Chevy can be done and with a welder look like it was a factory install. Considerations are modifying the transmission tunnel, headers/steering shaft, shifter, drive shaft and keeping the fresh air duct for the heater core in place so you don't drown your engine with water rusting things up after all the work you put into it!

[TRip]

Mike,

You're engine list reads like poetry!!

Did you say 30 wedges?!!! and 5 V8s?!!!  Now that's impressive.

I'm just on my first.

Thanks for the Rover 4 and 4.2 info.  I'll definitely avoid those.

"a huge handling difference", I like the sound of that.  Now, I'm reeeeally enthusiastic about relocating the motor back and lower which should be possible with a dry sump... I think.

A 427 actually fits? Wow!  

BTW, Re: Group 44 replica TR8.  Do you know if there are any body kits besides the Lanocha and Huffaker kits?

Thanks for the insight, Mike

Trip

[WedgeWorks1]

Trip-You will be surprised at how much room there is in the TR7. Tim Lanocha has a small block 427, not the big block version. I have seen 454s stuffed between the shock towers! The body kits from Lanocha Racing are the original Group 44 molds for all the fenders, hood, trunk & doors with some molds made from the front & rear spoilers. The irony is that not even Group 44 or the owners of the 2 TR8s have these molds but have made some of various panels. The Huffaker panels are nice but don't give a true racing look.  There are various kits available from the UK that look nice and with some decent amount of body work will get you some more room for wider tires. I have all original rally fender flares and front spoilers on my Rally car. I go REALLY wide in the back and up to a 10" rim and up to an 8" rim in the front and it don't hurt the look of the car at all. There are three sizes and lengths of fender flares for the rally car. I heard you asking about various topics/items with your project; engines, transmissions, rear end, and now seat bolts. You do have you hands full. Imaging trying to resurrect a TR8 and build a full competition Tr8 with only two hands and limited time! Somehow in about 100 years the rally car might touch the ground and soon the stock TR8 will be cruising!
The rule of thumb with the Rover V8s is if it has the 4 bolt mains and was running you have a good base to start with. If you buy an unknown motor especially one that was from a dealer who pulled and replaced it you have one of two issues; liners or oil pump. It is a 50-50 chance of wasting money. The older 3.9 and 3.5 liters are just as good. Never thrown a rod or crank in one or anyone I know of yet with the 2 bolt mains.

[castlesid]

Mike,

For the sake of the record, and it may have been a typo, but it is mainly the the later 4.0 and 4.6 four bolt main engines that suffered from block cracking and liner slip.


The 4.0 are the worst blocks as the engines were built from blocks with more core shift, the 4.6 were slightly better grade blocks.

The 3.5 rarely has a problem because there is a lot more material behind the liners The 3.9/4.2 which is the same block also rarely have the problem.

The problem with the later engine is attributed to the fact that the late blocks suffered from core shift in the casting process, and that they were run at higher temperatures for emission reason.

Of course any of the Rover engines that has been seriously overheated or suffered coolant loss, can suffer from this problem.

Picture of the block problem of a late block showing how little material there is behind the liner.



Kevin Jackson.

[WedgeWorks1]

Kevin-Thanks for the correction or clarification!  I meant the 4.0 andd 4.6.......too many litres out here! The 3.9 and 4.2 blocks are on the same level as the 3.5s......I had a 4.6 that needed an over bore for a friend of mine and when the machine shop bored the cylinder the bond for the block and liner broke free. Only until it warmed up did it yield the ugly secret! He had to use a new 4.0 liter short block assembly just for the block and it came out fine.

[TRip]

Mike, 454?!!  Do the rear wheels actually touch the ground?? LOL

They must have done some serious relocating back and lower to keep a reasonable weight distribution and handling.

I would looooove to know how they did it!

10" and 8" rims, are they custom 17 or larger diameter?

Yes, I do have my hands full but still can't imagine the amount of work and research you must be enduring in order to build a race legal rally car.  It makes it a lot more difficult when there are such ridgid racing requirements and rules compared to a street project.

Okay, I'll keep your rule of thumb in mind.

Thanks,

Trip

[TRip]

Kevin, thank you for posting the cut-away pic of the block.  It really does help to have a visual showing the cause of porsity in the 4 and 4.6 blocks.

Trip

[BlownMGB-V8]

I would think that the 455 Buick would be a better choice than a 454, since it is significantly lighter.

Jim

[TRip]

Oh, I like it... a Buick 455, interesting suggestion.  

Trip

[castlesid]

Trip,

If you have a TR7 with a 5spd it will be a LT77 so you only need a V8 2WD bellhousing and the gear lever will remain in the stock position. If you need a shorter remote lever, then the Jaguar XJ with LT77 had them.

I also would suggest not to get too carried away with your first project or it may take several years to get it on the road. Keep it simple with a nicely modified Rover 3.9  and you will have a nice well balanced car with plenty of performance which will be great fun to drive and won't end up costing the earth.

Kevin.

[TRip]

"I also would suggest not to get too carried away with your first project or it may take several years to get it on the road."

Kevin, you're very right about that.  I've been reading so many great suggestions here that it's been easy to get carried away with new ideas.  Kinda like a kid with a Toys R Us christmas catalogue!

Could you elaborate about the Jag remote lever.  Do you have a photo by any chance?

Trip

[NixVegaGT]

LOL! WOW I could had that advice six years ago. Ha ha ha ha!

[castlesid]

Trip sorry no dimensions or pics of the shorter remote but from memory it is very short and I think the engine would need to be back about  6" to make it viable.

The standard remote should be fine if you leave the engine in the stock position and the gear lever in the same place, again less work and cost.

What year is your car?? as early models had 4 spd boxes, but they may have been a LT77 without the 5th gear, I'm more familiar with MGB specs.

Re keeping it simple, I have nothing against innovation and applaud the engineering solutions achieved by many of the members of this forum in having the ability, and in some cases the facilities to created something exitingly different.

The main thing here is what sort of budget do you have in mind and then work out a realistic spec from there, or you'll end up going in circles and it won't be on a track!

That link I gave you to Rimmer Bros for the complete conversion kit is actually very good value, especially as their parts are normally quite expensive.

Don't forget to budget in for a fully upgraded suspension, springs, shocks and bushes etc.if you buy a conversion kit the brakes are included.

Kevin.

[TRip]

Hello Kevin, thank you for your advice.

The car is a 1980 with the 5speed. LT77.

You mentioned moving the engine back 6".  It can be moved that much?  I was thinking 3"... maybe - without modifying the firewall, anyway.

"...you'll end up going in circles and it won't be on a track!"  
Nicely put.

Trip

[castlesid]

Trip,

Not unless you have very short legs, no what i meant was you would have to move the engine back an impractical amount to justify using the shorter remote.

As you already have a LT77 all you need is an engine and 2wd bellhousing, plus all the other bits in the Rimmer bros Kit which you can source from wherever is most convenient and cost effective.

Kevin.

[TRip]

Ha, ha that's true... Talk about a real mid-engine car. LOL!  

I see what you mean.

I'm looking at the Rimmer kit now.

Trip

[WedgeWorks1]

Trip-
To convert a TR7 to a TR8 you will need the following as a minimum:
-Rover SD1/TR8 bell housing with dust shield
-Rover SD1/TR8 Throwout bearing sleeve/carrier & pivot bolt. (You can use a TR7 throwout bearing same as TR8.
-Rover SD1/TR8 Flywheel & Clutch
-TR8 Engine brackets/mounts and subframe
-TR8 Radiator mounts (Upper and Lower)
-TR8 Drive shaft (or custom u-joint)
-TR8 Headers or stock cast manifolds
-TR8 or after market tachometer
-Electric 2 to 9psi fuel pump
-Rover SD1/TR8 Alternator bracket
Rover V8 Starter

This is what you can reuse from the TR7:
-5-Speed
-Alternator that if you remove the three bolts and rotate the housing
-Wiring which you will need to delete some wires from the TR7 and shorten the starter wires which are the same for the TR7 & 8.
-The radiator can be used if it is in excellent shape with an electric fan but it is marginal
-Coolant header tank needs to be on the passenger side inner fender
-Speedometer cable for the TR7/8 5-speeds are the same.
-The TR7 transmission cross member with mount can be used but you will have to redrill the holes in the floor further back in the tunnel
-Reuse the TR7 clutch slave, pushrod, pivot arm and hose
-Reuse the manual steering rack
-TR7 5-Speed shifter housing if kept in the stock TR8 location comes really close to the back of the hole in the tunnel. You can do some notching so it will not hit. The TR8 shifter is assembly is shorter.

Here is a picture of the Sherpa/Jaguar shortened remote shifter.


You will find the stock TR7 springs to be softer, brakes inadequate and if you have the 3.90 rearend a waste of 1st gear. It will last about 10 feet! The TR7 sway bar is smaller than the TR8 but the rears are the same. The TR8 brakes are slightly better and the TR8 has a bigger brake booster but the same master with the exception of the warning light sensor on the bottom but not required in your case. You will also want to move the battery to the trunk to keep the heat away from it and better weight distribution too! I hope this helps you out!

[TRip]

Oh ya! ... it really does help me out Mike.

I get the sense you could do the entire conversion in your sleep... and probably have!!!

It looks like an overwhelming amount of work but I think as I start the project, it won't be so ominous.

When I completely redid my 4 cyl for performance.  It looked like a big job.  Bit by bit I ended up doing it top to bottom and said... TR7 V8 next!

Cheers,

Trip

[NixVegaGT]

Dude. That is totally the way to look at it. Bit by bit. That's how I had to progress. Now if I can just get my engine back from the machine shop...