Got into the grease yesterday and have to trim my nails this morning but the front wheels are ON! First a shot of the components that make up the saddle clamps for the rack



Next the assembled parts, note that the spacers get cut off to the length needed to put the rack in a position where the lower control arms will not slice into the rack boots.



Then as assembled and welded into position, everything is working out fairly good at this point



And then a shot with the front wheels on. It has the airbags in place which are holding the arms up, the weight of the car will compress them. I also got the rear axle up on the car and bolted on the rear tires but the rotisserie cross beam is in the way so I didn't take that picture yet. Doesn't look like a whole lot of narrowing will be required though. I will get the chance to try mixing and matching the banjo and salisbury axle parts, to see how much interchange is possible. I'd prefer to use the later axles if I can.

Now a word about the bump steer. It has been pointed out that the short tie rods will contribute to bump steer and yes in fact they do. The vast majority of that is in the droop half of the suspension travel and amounts to about 8 degrees at full droop which is a lot, especially with both tires off the ground. But let's consider the dynamics for a second. If you are actually driving the car in that condition this is extreme toe-in and when you come back down it will tend to center the car and make it go straight ahead as it is coming down. I'd say that is somewhat desirable. The travel in the compression side is a degree or so which isn't really going to hurt much, going as it does from toe in to toe out.

What happens in a corner though? The inside tire gets unloaded and toes in. This will have the effect of trying to straighten out the car which could be of some assistance coming out of the corner but to whatever extent the inside tire maintains traction it will tend to decrease the cornering ability, As this effect becomes more pronounced as the body rolls and at the same time traction on the inside tire drops off it should be a pretty controllable effect. At the same time the outside tire is going from toe-in to toe-out, requiring the driver to steer more aggressively into the turn, but again in a controllable manner. Hitting the bump in the turn might make things a bit squirrelly, I'll just have to wait and see. Regardless, it will remain so at least until testing shows the need for a change.  Bending the spindle arms up would tend to center this effect, but I'm not sure that would be desirable. As it is, in the most used part of the suspension travel the toe changes very little.



Today I hope to start on the rear axle and get a shot of that. Even upside down it is starting to look a bit more like an actual car.

Jim

Now I have a question or two. This banjo axle... is it MGB or perhaps A, or T series? It seems odd.



Check out the adjuster on the end of the slave cylinder. Also the conical spring holding the brake shoe on the backing plate. The hub nut uses a fine pitch thread also, I think it's 12tpi and that doesn't seem to match MGB, and the axle is an untapered floating design with the end bearing held on a snout at the end of the housing by a 1-15/16" OCTAGONAL nut. I definitely don't have a socket to fit that and may have some trouble finding one. The driver's side is good and stuck too, none of my tricks have worked to get it off.

Anyone know for sure what this is, and does it possibly have left hand threads on that big octagonal spindle nut?

Also the studs are 7/16" rather than 1/2"

Jim

I did some research and it appears that this axle is probably an MGA axle as it has the 7/16" studs and the MGA brake cylinders. That nut was indeed a left hand thread and I damaged it somewhat in removal but it is still usable. a replacement is Enormously expensive so I won't be doing that right away, if ever. What I *will* be doing is fitting the MGB studs and brakes to this axle as those parts are more available and less expensive and the set I have is in good shape, though I do need one of the shoe retainers.

I will be narrowing the axle 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 inches per side by trimming it where it attaches to the hub. The tube is round and straight there so it should be easy and I won't be needing the spring hanger brackets. I'm hoping the end housings have a stub that slips inside the axle tube as that would simplify the job. Anyway, into the lathe it goes. I will cut and splice the axles once I have the brake backing plates on and have decided which drums to use. More photos later.

Jim

I've hit a bit of a snag. The axle housing has been damaged and is unusable without a replacement end piece. I tried to overlook the signs of damage of which there were at least rather significant ones including irregularities with the big nut on that end, a sizeable dent in the housing tube, and running out of round in the lathe but on closer inspection I found the bearing snout on that side to be bent and there's no coming back from that one, I need a replacement housing.



You should be able to see the bend in the photo, simply not usable.

So I'll be looking for an early MGB banjo type axle. Disc wheel preferred but WW works also.

Jim

The good news is that I've found another axle, the bad is that I have to go for a drive to pick it up. Has anyone ever tried carrying an MGB rear axle in an MGB trunk? If it will fit I'll drive the roadster and if not the truck. Taking some measurements today.

On the plus side it is a steel disc wheel MGB axle so it'll have the 3.9, 1/2" lugs and the better brakes. Less work for me.

I was looking at Speedway 4-link bars for A body GM, about 11 and 19" between centers. That might be a little long for the bay car but it gives am a starting point.

Jim

I don't think it will whole, but........

I think it just may, if you remove the drums, brakes, backing plate. & possibly the axles.

Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'll just drive the truck instead. I checked it though. The drums are too big to fit into the side recesses except at an angle and the housing is too long to go in even if they did. So much for that idea. If it was just a housing, then maybe.

So I've been working on the bus and the pressure washer instead, although I have also been beating the differential hump in the body to let it sit lower, a little bit each time I go out. Making a new cart and that's nearly finished so if when I want to blast off the bottom I should be able to do that pretty soon.

Been cutting holes for the furnace in the bus and that's been a challenge. Vent and exhaust lines going through a bulkhead that turns out to be 2 layers of stainless nearly three inches apart with a folded internal reinforcement. Holesaws don't like that sort of thing too well but I'm down to the last layer now and just ordered another holesaw. These are the industrial grade carbide ones from China, but a job like this can still strip off the teeth. I hope to hook up the propane line in another week or two.

Jim

Depending on the condition, I would think that may be hard to do on site.

Wally

It is definitely doable.  I pulled my axle with just a cordless impact.

Yeah,  I need to get me one of those.....
It's about time for me to "update" a bunch of shop tools.  Air is out. Milwaukee battery power is in! I have a wish list a mile long!

Wally

I've accumulated a few Milwaulkee cordless tools. The batteries are expensive but last a long time. Their newish brushless tools are nice and compact as well as being pretty powerful but I wasn't too impressed with the 1/2" impact I bought quite some time ago. Maybe it needs the brushes changed though. I use the M18 tools but Dan has an M12 powered ratchet that is pretty nice. Haven't had any of their chargers fail yet. Overall I'd recommend them.

Packing up today for the drive to pick up the axle, I will leave in the morning and won't be back until sometime Tuesday. I have two bottles of Woodford Reserve to deliver and I suspect we might have to compare the merits of the rye vs the bourbon sometime tomorrow afternoon. Just a taste of course, can't let that influence my road trip. Also there seems to be a 'high level' online conference of the Badass leadership that I must attend, perhaps via bluetooth headset. We are working hard for you, dear reader, to make this the site you'll be comfortable at.

Jim

I've determined that I will only buy brushless.  They cost a little more, but should out last the brushed.

Good luck to you.  I pulled a Ford 8" about 25 years ago on site. A co-worker gave it to me.  I was going to use it on the B, but never did.  I can't even remember how I got it out.  Hand tools only maybe? I might have had a pancake compressor.  I don't remember.  Have fun!

Wally

The 8" is a significantly heavier axle but I don't need the strength as much as I need the light weight. The housing is surprisingly light and the alloy 3ed member also helps. Brakes are heavy though. Sounds like it's at the bottom of a pile of parts though so I should take some gloves. Could be a workout and we may need a drop of liquid refreshment afterwards. I'll know more in a few hours.

I agree the brushless is the way to go. Wish they'd had those when I bought my drill and 1/4" impact, which gets used all the time. Still holding up well despite that, but eventually they will need replaced I'm sure. Tools are an expendable resource.

Jim

I just got back from Princeton, WV where Michael Crews (Doc), Ben Franklin (his real name btw) and I went on a scavenger hunt followed by digging for buried treasure.

Upon arrival Michael showed me his newly imported 1959 MG Magnette ZB, which must have been a very early '59 as on 2 Feb that year MG announced the Mark III. Nice car but we didn't go for a drive. Maybe next time. I then presented him with two bottles of Woodford Reserve, one of rye and the other Bourbon. We had been wondering which was better so I got him both for the purposes of comparison. We didn't test drive those either, at least not right then but at our online Happy Hour last night I was able to make a comparison from here, having gone to the Krogers and picked up another jug of the Bourbon. My conclusions? Both very fine whiskeys but I personally prefer the Rye. I just like the taste better. I sampled them two ways, first as a sip earlier in the day, and then at HH on the rocks with a splash as is my custom. Some will like the Bourbon better, and it's good, but others will agree with me.

We then set off on our scavenger hunt. Michael has a number of buildings including the complex where he has his apartment  and cars, another building behind his clinic, and more where he grew up. We visited those locations, starting in his complex where he directed us to what I can really only describe as a 'pile' of axles, cross members, front suspensions and steering columns with odds and ends thrown in for good measure. I told Edith this pile was as tall as she was but that was a slight exaggeration. It was only somewhere around 3/4 as tall as she is. But that's quite a few axles jumbled up together. Most of them were Salisbury and quite a few were Midget, with the occasional oddball and at least one partial banjo. So we knew pretty quickly we had struck gold and I could walk away with at least the bare minimum I needed for success. I spotted a complete MGB Banjo axle but wouldn't you know it was at the very bottom of the pile.

So nothing would do but that we had to dig it out, whereupon Ben and I on the pile with Micheal at the edge began the laborious process of untangling the various parts (swaybars in there too btw), dragging them aside and attempting to prop or stack them in a slightly more orderly manner mostly right in the middle of the walkway such as it was. In this manner we succeeded in eventually seeing the concrete floor, getting the crossed axles off the prospective donor, and it was only at this point that it came to light that the jewel we were digging for was in fact a Salisbury! HOW? I felt bad. How had I possibly made such a gross misidentification? I was quite certain I had seen the unique curvature of the banjo housing and to this very minute I still suspect there could have been some sort of Hocus-Pocus involved, because I sure do know the difference and you can tell from any part of the axle what it is. The only thing that makes any sense is that an evil Elf has snuck into Michael's complex at some prior time and cursed the axle pile, causing it to seem like I was looking at the very bottom axle when in fact I was seeing the incomplete Banjo in the pile above it. Well enough of that mystery, we aren't going to solve it. We proceeded to other locations.

First we scouted the complex for a possible stray banjo and found only silence (see what I did there, he, he, he... Banjo Players, Untie!) Next we visited the site behind the Clinic and again drew a blank, though I did find it interesting that there was a Datsun 2000 there. Then we drove out of town to his old family home. And there, at the other end of the property behind a screen of briars we entered an access door under the hillside house and found treasure. Three actual early MGB banjo axles. Now these were anything but pristine, having languished there since the 70's and partially, well mostly in fact subsumed into the dirt but the ground was dry and powdery and in short order we had excavated them and brought them forth into the light of day. One wire wheel axle, one disc wheel axle and one of unknown provenance as it was missing both axles and drums. But this was the lodestone, the Mother Gold. With the one disc axle I would have enough to complete the quest. They are a bit weathered it can't be denied, having sat long enough for the ground to rise up around them but on the other hand 50 years is hardly any time atall in archeological terms and I was happy enough to proceed with the load-out.

Michael was of the opinion that I should take all three of them, citing redundancy as a valid means of covering possible undiscovered defects (and I suspect he might not have wanted to drag them back to the scattered pile in the complex) so we loaded them up and away we went, back to our starting point where he adamantly refused my offers to restore the pile as near as we could. Ben had made some remarks about hanging the axles from the ceiling (floor joists) and they may have intended to follow up on that, perhaps to break the curse of the evil Elf, I don't know.

At any rate I brought them home, offloaded them out at the Lab and hosed them down with hot water. I'll attach a shot plus one of the fitup of the bent housing in the body shell. Today I plan to mate the pressure washer pump to the new cart and maybe I'll get far enough along to blast them clean as prep for teardown. I have brakes and drums from the original '74-1/2 tub plus drums from the A bent axle which was wire wheel so all I really need are the housing, a good hog's head, and a set of axles which I should now have here along with spares.





And now a word about the 4 link. I've been researching the early GM 4 link system because it's really quite good and also well developed. But they didn't use in on their smallest cars like the early Camaro IIRC, as I believe those came with leaf springs. The intermediate cars had the angled 4 link system and we never heard much about them. They did their job and that was that. No fuss, no muss. Add a sway bar and you were golden. I drove one of those as hard as you could possibly drive it and stay out of the trees and it never gave me a second's concern. Even today that 75 year old setup still supports all those classic cars and does it well.

As it turns out, it doesn't even have to be scaled down to work perfectly in this bay car. Everything except the distance between the body mounting points can stay exactly the same and the stock bushings will be extra firm for what is expected to be 1/2 the body weight. So yeah, I'm looking into that. Speedway has the links and bushings but I misunderstood their pricing on a post I made elsewhere and the full fixed arm and bushing set will cost around $300. I suspect I can do better than that. Stock parts might be just fine for this, and fabbing up the arms wouldn't be much of a challenge.

Jim

My 1968 Camaro & all 1st & 2nd gen Camaros had leaf springs.  My 1968 Chevelle SS had an OEM triangulated 4-link.  I do not remember any binding, as it was mounted in fairly large rubber bushings.

Still researching it, rockauto didn't have the arms which disappointed me. I can make them but I'm willing to just buy them too. I see PartsGeek has them for $191 and they are *totally* trustworthy, right? Here's a set on Ebay for $133, I might order these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125895445019
I don't see where they really need to be adjustable, there are adjustable bushings available to change the pinion angle. Also the length of the lower arm varied by about 3". On my 1970 Cutlass I think it was 22-3/8" and on later cars it was 19-1/2". I may have to play with that program to see what difference that makes.

I got the pressure washer pump mounted and belted up yesterday so today is the plumbing and wiring. Too cold today to run that beast anyway plus I have work to do downstairs. Guest quarters are temporarily under duress but will be back up to standards in due course. Also the 2nd new industrial grade 2-3/4" holesaw came in (I absolutely destroyed the 1st one, who knew they could be such delicate flowers?) so I can now punch through the last sheet of stainless, mount the furnace and hook up the propane line in the bus that this bay car will ride. It won't be long now before I'm thinking about ramps.

In the meantime, it was 37 degrees this morning. Brrr.

Jim

What does a complete MGB disc-wheel banjo axle weigh? I think that data is missiing from Carl's axle thread.

Hap does Hybrid MGB axles by using the Tube axle ends on the Banjo housings. The GM and Fox Mustang are similar rear suspensions, and they work as Carl says, by a large rubber bushing in the upper arms to prevent binding.

I can consider that Jim. What does he do about the axles? Salisbury? Any need to swap the side gears to do that? I *would* prefer to use the later axles.

I'll get the pressure washer running tomorrow and wash down the axles. Then I can put the mostly complete disc axle on the grain scale along with a set of drums and whatever else it's missing. That'll give us an accurate weight. Probably including oil.

Jim

Dale Spooner built the first hybrid MGB rearend that I had ever heard off, a long time ago. He used an 8inch rear with MGB ends.

The MGB banjo/Salisbury is used quite often in vintage racing.

Huffaker was doing it a long time ago.  Tony Barnhill (R.I.P.) also built one many years ago.

From Hap Waldrop:

QuoteThe axles are unmodified tube housing axles, the housing is what get the modification, basically you cut off the ends of the banjo housing, and then cut the ends off a tube housing , and graph the tube axle ends onto the banjo housing.
The inboard splines on the later MGB banjo housing axles and the tube housing axles are one in the same, but the tube axles are way stouter though, and you get a hub set up that lets forget about losing an axle, hub, and wheel while on track. So more strength, safety, and the luxury of changing diffs, and tons lighter than running a tube housing, pretty much a win-win.

Jim, You can shorten the axles like you did the Jag half shafts. Only difference is to have the shafts butt together in the middle.

25 spline Salisbury and MGB banjo axle are the same where they go into the side gear. Early MGA were 10 spline, later 25spline.

I see that, good deal. I have the parts to do that so I might as well. Although... The tube axle uses a splined hub on the wheel end of the axle shaft so I'll have to look at how far that sticks out. If it's more than an inch and a half or so, and I think it is, I may not have the side clearance. I'll just have to look.

Either way it's a clear win for me. The straight axles of the banjo will be a little easier to shorten and an MGB tube axle shaft, once the outer spline is cut off, make a great drift punch. I've had one in my tool chest for decades. The taper and the big head are clear advantages. In combination with a hand sledge there aren't many things it can't dislodge and the size and big head make it perfectly suitable for a job where you need the 8lb sledge and a holder. OTOH if the nut doesn't stick out too far I get a stronger axle. Can't complain about that, especially when I'm seeing V-twin engines of up to 127 inches, making for an easy future upgrade if wanted. Even modified I don't think something like 150hp is going to hurt this axle.

Disassembling for shortening is likely to be a chore I suspect. The flange will have to come off before the brake backing plate can be removed. Not sure I'd want all of that jangling around in the lathe during the turning operation... although I guess there's no reason why it couldn't be done that way, except that my centers I put shafts between for tig welding don't have as much swing. I'll have to see if that could fit. I would feel a little more comfortable with the factory assembled flange and axle rather than breaking it down and reassembling it. The alternative would be to remove and reinstall the bearing. There is always a risk of that going astray for one reason or another. The flange strikes me as the safer option though I could be wrong about that. With the forces involved, deformation of parts is always a risk. It's been so long since I broke down an MGB axle I don't remember what I'm up against. But at least the hub is a forged part so it's quite strong. I once turned the flanges off a pair of those and welded on a pair of 5/8" cold rolled discs and drilled them to a Ford 5 lug pattern. That axle is now long gone but so far as I know the hubs never failed. That's saying something since I was running it behind my supercharged 215 with 16+lbs of boost. That axle, even with an open diff would lay two equal patches about 20 ft long coming out of first gear and hook up hard. I abused it relentlessly until I broke a spider gear. Then I backed off a little.

Jim

No worries about breaking down the axles it turns out, I chucked them up and cut clearance for the wheel center hole on both hubs. Then I put one between centers on my welding jig and had a little room to spare so I'm good there. I also inserted the two Salisbury axle shafts into the already cut down banjo housing and determined that an overall width of 49" end to end would give me good positioning of the tires in the wheelwells so that's probably what I will go with. If I want to I can actually use that housing and weld on the ends of the Salisbury housing. The alignment will be off a bit on one side due to the dent but it'll work so I'll need to look at that after I make up bushings for an alignment shaft. If I do I'll be using the hog's head out of one of the axles I got from Michael with it and that'll leave me with a surplus of spare parts. Once I have the axle done I'll be happy to share what's left over.



Almost lost this post, that's the risk with Preview in combination with CRS. But I managed to recover it. I also had another photo I wanted to add but screwed that up somehow as well so I'll try to re-create it. I'm putting the finishing touches on the pressure washer today, just have to add a lever arm and spring to the belt clutch idler arm, change the oil and do an ops check then it should be ready for prime time. First job, clean up the axles, A little later on, blast the bottom of the bay car to prep for paint. Not sure if that part will get done before spring or not, but it'd be nice to break down the rotisserie and free up some shop space.

Jim

Can you get this paint in the USA, you can paint even when the temperature is just 24F;
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