Why so few TR4 V8s?

[motek]

This is a great site and I've learned a ton. My question is why are there so many fewer TR-4 V8 projects than TR-6s?

Is it just because more TR-6s were sold? Are TR-4 bodies more expensive? Or are the conversions harder to do?


Thanks,


George

[TRip]

I think it's because there are fewer TR4s left and the ones that are remaining are being restored to OEM stock.  

Yes also that there were many more TR6s built.

That in turn means that there are fewer aftermarket parts and accessories available.

But hey, if one has the cash, time and interest, anything's possible!

Trip

[alana]

Check out both the cost of body panels for a TR250 vs a TR6 and the relative values for "decent" cars -  that'll answer your question in fairly short order...

[motek]

It's too bad. I really like the extra curves on the TR-4s.

[Bugeyev8]

the engine bay on the TR4 is smaller and requires more cutting, the inner fenders and in the front the cross support between the shock towers can be a challenge, the TR6 was also untill a few years ago a low $$ car, now the TR4s are worth way too much for someone to hack up, you don't even see too many TR6s getting engine swaps these days

[alana]

The engine bay is the same. Only the outer panels changed between the 4 and the 6 - the tub is the same.
The 6 was a styling exercise, done on a limited budget, to freshen the ageing 4s.
Look at the 250 - 4 body, 6 running gear. It was the stopgap while they finished the 6 design.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Putting a V8 in either one is a rather daunting task to begin with since any but the most mild mannered engine will require chassis reinforcement and so the cost goes up significantly with power. That's a little easier to justify in the 6 with the smaller initial investment. But with the 4 the higher initial value of the car combined with the cost of the conversion puts most off, especially when they consider that the car may well be worth more in stock condition.

But having said that, if a conversion is done to high enough standards it will usually increase the value of the car somewhat, even if it's not as much as the total cost.

JB

[alana]

But having said that, if a conversion is done to high enough standards it will usually increase the value of the car somewhat, even if it's not as much as the total cost.

A pretty v8 TR4 vs a pretty stock TR4?

I'd really like to see one that has a v8 in that's worth more - to someone other than the owner that is.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Well it's a very subjective thing of course, the right buyer and all that. But you have to have the right buyer for the nice TR4 also and the difference would probably be a small one. Like I said, certainly not enough to cover the overall costs. But then restoration rarely does that either so there you go. I don't think they'll ever reach the status of something like an original Cobra, hemi 'cuda or even a Tiger though so it's an incremental difference at best. Obviously though if the job is not done to the proper standards or the selected engine is a poor choice... but then you'd be comparing it to a similarly cobbled TR4 so I guess it actually would be comparable. I don't have a suitable TR4 at my fingertips but one done like Ted Lathrop's TR6 would qualify for sure.

http://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/TedLathrop.htm

Oh, and here's a nice TR4 but there's no mention of frame work.

http://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/ArtHart.htm

JB

[alana]

That 6 has over $35k in it. GFL finding a buyer at even 1/2 that.
I know of two stock engined 6s that fetched >18k in the last two weeks, so there's a fair comparison for you.

Increase the value - not a chance.
Come close to covering the costs - no way on earth.

You might be able to shove a $600 4.0 LandRover engine into a B and get close, but with a Rumf not a hope.

Prove me wrong and I'll publicly, and humbly, apologise but until then I call BS.
These conversions are done for the owners pleasure. They are a money losing proposition from every viewpoint.

[motek]

Alan,

It may actually not be BS. I will just about break even if you use the numbers I've been telling my wife!

[BlownMGB-V8]

$18K for a TR-6? Wow. I have a couple of buddies who will certainly be glad to hear that! So you think that Ted's TR-6 wouldn't sell for $18K? Obviously you haven't seen the car then. I'm quite certain that if he ever decided to sell it the price would be considerably higher. And I know of at least 2 and probably 3 $100K V8 MGB-GT's that you can't buy. But you could be right about the TR's in general since they never came with much of an engine in the first place. There is something to be said for having a factory produced V8 car after all to at least replicate.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing about it. Seems pretty clear that you and I will just have to disagree, and what George decides to do is his own choice.

JB

[alana]

Yup, 18k. Two. Both in the last two weeks. Both really nice cars. Neither guy made a profit.

And since you mentioned it, I saw Ted's car at Carlisle in May.
It's a nice car, but not to my taste. If he ever sells it for more than he put into it, including his labor, do please let me know.

As an aside, I'd have let it slide if you'd started by saying costs to do a swap into a 6 (which Lathrop's car clearly is). You can buy a ratty one for MG money, spend $500 buggering it up and then sell the botched conversion on eBay. Oh look, there's one on its second trip through there now...

4s are a different animal. Less common. More desireable. Much more expensive to replace body parts on.

George, I say go for it. Make it look like that black one in the photo articles, or the green one that I saw in Pa a few years back with the Rover engine in there. Both are beautiful cars.

Just do it with your eyes open - you aren't doing the conversion with an eye to make money. Ignore the polishers when they talk about desecration and calamity and tragedy.

My one piece of advice would be that if you don't have one already, spend more up front and buy a good shell - panels are eyewateringly expensive. I know because my 250 conversion started out with this little gem.



The photos flatter it. Every external panel has or will be been replaced.
And no, it won't fetch even half what I have in it, but I don't care. It is being built for me.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Well you see Alan, that's really the point isn't it? You build it for yourself, not to sell it. Except for the cars that are built for a customer, they fit more into the purchased cars category and prices paid for conversion service indicate that yes indeed, the converted car is worth a premium. Anyway, TR4's and TR6's are pretty much the same except for the 4's being scarcer. My brother's had one for decades. Bought it for $300 and it's right much a jewel of a car. No idea what it'd sell for but prices are all over the map and since it isn't an original car in original condition it's doubtful it'd bring anywhere near that $18K figure, but we're willing to be re-educated. Still, this does bring up another point. Even if he could only sell it for half that (and I'd almost bet that'd be a fire sale) he'd get back all the money he's put into it. In current devalued dollars of course. The point being that it isn't decreasing in value any more.

As far as Ted selling his car for his cost, you're putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that. I don't know what it'd sell for, I only think that for $18K it'd be one heck of a bargain, refuting the bald statement that a converted car is less valuable than a restored car. Just ain't so. How about Calvin's car? You think it'd be worth less than a original car in like condition?

JB

[alana]

Except for the cars that are built for a customer, they fit more into the purchased cars category and prices paid for conversion service indicate that yes indeed, the converted car is worth a premium

To the guy paying for the work. Not at resale time.
Find a TR4 that fetched more and I'll agree with you. Until then you are just guessing, and I don't agree with your guesses. I've yet to see a converted 4 on the open market. I've seen a ton of nice 4s go from 20 - 40k. Find ONE converted one that went on the open market in that price range. Just one, that's all I'm asking for. Don't try to muddy the waters with a 6, stick to the original premise - the TR4.

Anyway, TR4's and TR6's are pretty much the same except for the 4's being scarcer.

And worth rather more than 6's in the general scheme of things. Or do you also disagree with that statement?
You know one is a 4 cylinder and the other a 6, and a 4 (as opposed to a 4A) has a beam axle and a different frame, right?
So different engine different frame different body and different name, but pretty much the same.
That's like me saying a Midget and a B are pretty much the same.
Actually I guess they are - they both say MG AND they are both 4 bangers...
 
I only think that for $18K it'd be one heck of a bargain, refuting the bald statement that a converted car is less valuable than a restored car

Then I won't mention the one that went for $32k last summer to a guy in NJ. I was talking about that sold stuff recently. Obviously I have no idea what the prices of TRs are, and I didn't speak to the buyer (who is still happy with the deal) the day before yesterday. He didn't pay another 3k to ship it down from Canada either. It is a nice car mind you, not like the usual eBay fare.

How about Calvin's car? You think it'd be worth less than a original car in like condition?

In pieces as is, or finished?

In pieces, as is it's worth more. The running LS1/T56 combo adds to the parts value vs an unrestored LBC engine. You can get $2500 for the pair. An unrestored TR6 engine and box (unless it's an overdrive) is only worth about $1000 (on a good day).

Finished, I say a properly restored stock car will appeal to a wider audience, and as such will edge it out on price.
But I'm fairly sure Calvin doesn't care. He's building what he wants.


Anyway, I'm done with this. You have a widely different opinion to mine, and that's fine. When you find the modded TR4 that validates your argument, I'll change my mind and agree with you. Until then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Dan B]

So I guess what you guys are saying is that I need to call Hagerty and upgrade my agreed value policy.......


Dan B

[alana]

Well I doubt it'll appraise for quite what the one that went at Barrett-Jackson in 2006 went for (97k for those who missed it) but if you've had it a while and not changed the value, it's likely worth more than you think.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Yeah, I agree, I'm done with it too. Apparently whatever converted 4's are out there the owners aren't selling them. Gee I wonder why? Yes, yes, I know about the frames, motors, axles and such and stand by my original statement. Alan, if I might ask, and no offense intended, for such a purist, what are you doing here? No wait I take that back, I see you're converting a TR250, an even rarer car than the TR4A-IRS. How do you reconcile that with your position? Wouldn't you be money ahead to restore it? What are the details?

George, I apologize we took this so far off point. But if any of this helped it was probably to point out that you should do with your car what makes you happiest.

JB

[alana]

That's about what I expected.
Can't refute the position, so attack the person instead.

I'm still waiting for one of those expensive modified TR4s that validate your position.
Find one yet?

While you are looking, try to find out what this went across Craigslist for last year. I'll find you a nice TR6 to contrast it with and we'll see which is worth more.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Now Alan, I wasn't attacking you. My curiosity just got the better of me. So what ARE the details of your conversion? What engine are you using?

Maybe you could tell us what that car sold for since you picked that one. Personally I'd never buy that car. It is too specialized. So you'll have to find a track car to compare it to, since there's no trunk, no bumpers and the appearance has been fundamentally altered as well as having that goofy logo on the glove box door. Not that I'm saying Bruce is goofy mind you (sorry Bruce) but just that lots of potential buyers are going to pass just because of things like that. It really isn't a valid basis for comparison if you go out and find the most extensively modified car available. Oh, and your track car will have to have an automatic transmission. I doubt that one is going to bring anywhere near a premium.

I'd suggest another car for comparison, like maybe Ken Hiebert's TR http://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/KenHiebert.htm  but you'd not pry that one away from him with dynamite. That points up another problem with this approach. The guys who've built really good cars are not about to give them up, so it makes it really hard to establish a free market value for them. You can base your pricing on problem cars, those show up all the time. But that isn't going to come close to giving you the real value of a properly done car. It's a sad fact that a conversion car with a fundamental problem is indeed going to bring a low price because most people rightfully think that if the owner couldn't fix it how could they? This is not a problem with a restored car no matter what condition, because, "parts is parts". So even if you find a well restored car with a fundamental problem it still won't be a valid comparison with a conversion car which has a fundamental problem. And guys like Ken and Ted and Les and even Dale (included because his turbo car is a bit radical for the average buyer) aren't about to let their cars go up for sale. Those cars are as hard to find as that elusive TR4 you're looking for.

JB

[alana]

I have no idea what it sold for - it was on CL in the 12k range. I doubt we'd disagree that he had to have way more than that in there. That's in the same price range as an average TR6, especially during summer.

Since you asked, mine is a crate LS2 with a T56 behind it.
Headers and a tune are the only mods planned.
The front mount ancilliaries have been mounted on a Vintage Air FrontRunner setup, because that pulls everything in so that it all fits in the stock engine bay.

The suspension parts that aren't custom come from a C5 vette and it's been built to fit under a stock-looking shell.
You can see a few pictures here for what they are worth. The cut in the inner fender came with the car and it's getting replaced for one that is whole.

<edit> I can't find a 6 racecar right now. This one already sold and I don't know how much it went for, but here's a nice TR4 for 30k, and another for 28.5.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Beautiful chassis work Alan, I see you are quite talented. Interesting to see TR4 racers going close to 30K, maybe Dan will need to re-evaluate his insurance policy after all.

So if I might ask, after it's completed would you sell your TR250? And if you would, what would you ask?

And finally, if a TR modified for racing can command such a price, what reason is there to think that one modified for performance road use would not? I don't think it's a supportable argument to say that a racer involves less modification than an engine conversion.

btw, I saw a TR4A-IRS in LA priced at $7000 back in 1980 and was quite surprised. These cars continue to amaze me to this day.

JB

[alana]

Oh don't get the wrong idea - I can only dream of being able to weld like that. The best you can say about my efforts are that at the end the two pieces of metal are stuck together. This is being made by someone else.

It's my midlife crisis car. It's not for sale, and unless a catastrophic life event happens, never will be - the cost to make is way in excess of anything I could hope to get for it on the open market. The parts cost alone is way too high, let alone the cost of time.

I don't agree that modifying a car for track use is the same as modifying for street use.
Strip the interior and add a cage and you can race. You won't get very far, but you can race.  

Theres a bit more work involved with a bad engine swap.

[Dan B]

That 250 is gonna be a lot of fun for sure!

Dan B

[BlownMGB-V8]

>It's my midlife crisis car. It's not for sale, and unless a catastrophic life event happens, never will be - the >cost to make is way in excess of anything I could hope to get for it on the open market. The parts cost >alone is way too high, let alone the cost of time.

Here's the way I have it figured. Cars like Ted's, Terry Schulte's, Dan Master's, Calvin's, and yours Alan (and maybe even mine) are automotive "works of art". They are one of a kind creations that have no other equivalent. They will be kept until their owners die, and then either passed down through the family or go on auction and we can expect that to be many years in the future. In the 3 decades since I saw that TR4 for $7000, according to your figures the prices have gone up by a factor of 4:1 (stock OEM TR4) and the value of these cars can be expected to continue to increase, partially due to scarcity, partially due to other factors. So to state flatly that you can never expect to recover the build costs is not necessarily accurate because at some point the fair market price will exceed build cost. Let's consider why.

Very few of these cars will be built because very few people will have the financing to commission one of these works, or the talent to build it themselves. That by itself, along with the refusal to sell should tell you that these cars are valuable. The fair market price of any item is what a willing buyer will give a willing seller in a free exchange, absent any sort of coercion. Now the simple fact that a knowledgeable, savvy buyer such as, for instance Terry Schulte (and not a TR here but a rough equivalent) will commission a car such as his GT at a cost of,"Well over $100K" is proof enough of the value of that car in a free exchange. If the identical car had been available on the market for half that amount he would have simply bought it. (I sincerely do not believe that Dan M would sell his nearly identical GT for any less) So you can't say it isn't worth or won't sell for the price paid, because it already has. You car may be a similar example, as you are commissioning at least part of the work. The man hours invested by you would be a more subjective matter, but let's say you hired a company such as Fast Cars to do the build. If you were willing to pay the cost as some have, rather than buy an equivalent car on the open market, then like it or not you've just set the free market price of that one particular car and any others that are equivalent. Now, Fast Cars is by now a recognized producer of these art works. Don't you think one of their products is going to command a premium? So what makes you think that Ted's own personal car is not going to fetch a price over $35K? I say it will, and in today's market, not at some future date. The value of these cars will continue to grow, as long as they are properly maintained, as examples of the best of the breed and works of the finest art and craftsmanship that the era had to offer. We do see such examples from time to time come up on the market and typically are astonished by the price they command. The Berlin GT comes to mind.

But what bearing does this have on the average car? Well it sets the upper end of the scale. A few years back when the most expensive MGB or TR4 sold for under ten grand, it was foolhardy to think you could build one that would command a price of double that, and a conversion of average quality would indeed most likely bring less than the original car. But times have changed. The upper end of the scale has been raised to an almost unbelievable degree, but another dynamic has been playing into the scenario at the same time. This started before the Cobra, probably got it's first real boost in the Tiger/Alpine conversions, and has been greatly promoted by the MGB conversions of the last couple of decades. Let's start by acknowledging that the Cobra has vastly exceeded in value, the cost of any build, including repro's. Also the Apine conversions, while not as valuable as an original Tiger are certainly more valuable than the car they sprung from. Now it is well and truly recognized that an MGB conversion, well done, is more valuable than the car it was before the conversion, that is to say, the conversion increases the value as long as it is complete, and properly done. Market prices bear this out. Two cars in equivalent condition, the conversion is going to bring a premium because the buyers recognize the increase in value. Normally you would not expect this to be the case but for this particular car it worked because the factory produced a conversion car. That's right, the original factory MGB-GT V8 was a conversion. Sure, it was done at the factory and subtle changes were made so the engine was a drop-in and there was never any engine removed first other than in the prototypes, but nonetheless, it was a 4 cylinder car converted to American V8 power. In short, this one car more than any other legitimatized engine conversions for British sports cars, and it dragged all the rest of them along in it's wake. It caught on immediately in America and though the sport (and in some cases the Art) grew slowly it continued to gain momentum through the following decades until it reached the point where we are today, with hundreds and even perhaps thousands of converted MGB's and other British sports cars throughout the world. It is now a well recognized archetype, and as such has a well recieved place in the market. Your car Alan, and Calvin's, and even Dan B's car (stock except for a custom EFI system) are now able to begin taking advantage of that recognition and as time passes will gain even more by it.

It's true that the value of original cars will likewise increase, and which will increase faster is a question none of us can really answer. I'll put my money on the top end conversion cars but I have no argument with you backing the originals. One thing for sure, they aren't getting any cheaper.

JB