MGB Roadmaster

[castlesid]

Jim,

Did some surfing and came up with a couple of Jag installations.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Those look good. we did some closer measuring and came up with about 6" per side that needs removed, that should be within 1/4" or so. Still more measuring to be done, including the drum-drum width of the old axle. I want to get an accurate measurement of the vertical distance between the half-shaft and the LCA at each end, and that will tell me how close we are to being parallel, and also tell me how critical it is to calculate any difference in the amount to be removed both places.

The 455 parts that need to go to Dale Spooner are loaded up on Steve's trailer and went out early this morning. That includes the block, crank, damper, flex plate, rods, pistons and two sets of heads. The engine is a '70 and the head casting numbers match, but they are bare heads. We tore down the 430 to get the valves, springs and such and because the casting numbers indicated one was a big port head and the other was a small port head but as far as I could tell the ports were the same and measured bigger than the '70 heads so we sent them along figuring we'd just let Dale pick the best ones. Naturally if we do manage to get the aluminum heads it won't matter but that hasn't happened yet and I like having a backup plan. By the time you read this Carl will have the parts tucked away in his storage building and Dale is making the trip down there every few weeks so with any luck they will be in his shop by Christmas or shortly afterwards.

Here are some engine component weights, as measured on a digital shipping scale:

Complete short block minus flywheel, starter and engine mounts: 300#
Bare block: 177#
Crank: 66.1
1 rod and piston: 4.0
cam: 8.8
Cover and pump: 8.2
Damper: 6.8
distributor: 2.0
timing chain and gears: 1.8
iron intake: 48.9
bare head with rockers: 57.1
flex plate: 4.2
pan: 7.0

I realize that adding up the weights results in an error of 2 or 3 pounds (we were at the limits of the scale) and we'll take a closer look when we have clean parts to weigh during reassembly, but it gives us a better look at the weight we're dealing with here.  We came up with 465 lbs for the complete engine minus starter and flywheel, where we had 500lbs for the 430 similarly equipped. This would seem to indicate that there may indeed some basis for the claim that the '70 455 is 50 lbs lighter than later engines. At any rate anyone would have to admit that this is very light for a big block motor. Add flywheel and starter and we're still real close to 500 pounds. On their website TA performance states that their aluminum heads are lighter by 30 lbs each. They also state that their intake is 30 lbs lighter. That would get us down to to around 410 lbs depending on starter and flywheel used. If we can manage to put one of Ted's suspensions under it, we'll be down to an effective weight of 330, which is as light as stock!
 
But even if we use the iron heads and the stock suspension (I'm sure we can come up with a used alloy intake) if we take into account the heavier Jag IRS and the rearward weight balance of the GT body, our front to rear  weight distribution is going to be right on the money, and the only real issue we will have to deal with is an extra 150 lbs on the front of the car. Well guess what folks? I happen to have a stray set of springs that have wire the same size as Huffaker -1" street/track springs but are a couple inches longer. I think that's "Problem Solved!" I'm not real sure what they came off of, but I highly suspect it's TR6 related.

So that's a lot of progress for a cold winter weekend. We actually did have some heat, courtesy of a propane tank and my home made pipe bending furnace and that was enough to take the chill off and give us a stove to sit around for breaks. Maybe by the February meet I'll have the gas furnace operational. In the meantime this should do for December and January is at Ted's. It looks like the December meet will be back on schedule, the weekend before New Year's Eve, and Ted's Winter Party is January the 26th. and that is consistent with our "last weekend of the month" schedule as well.

If anyone would like to learn how to do a front end kingpin renewal, maybe bring parts for your own car or use cores I have on hand, swap them out and send the cores back, I have the tools and the reamer and have done that job before. It's not complicated or difficult. We need to at least inspect the GT kingpins and possibly renew them. Just bring a rebuild kit to the December meet, I'll show you what to do and help you make sure everything is done correctly and you can do both sets at the same time. That would help put us a little ahead of schedule, which is a really good idea since we're bound to hit unexpected delays before the summer V8 meet.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Folks, I've got the draft of the liability release done for whoever drives the car or takes possession of it. Bear in mind it's a draft and can be changed, but it's something to start with. Those of you who are interested should have a look at it and post your comments. It's written in plain language rather than legalese. I could have done it either way but I don't see any reason why its meaning shouldn't be perfectly clear to anyone who signs it. It says pretty much exactly what any conventional one would. Anyway, here's the text:

Assumption of Liability

I hereby assume all liability for anything that happens with the car, (MGB Roadmaster) except what insurance will cover. I fully understand that we're talking about dangerous equipment here and I'm putting my life at risk by operating it. Not only that, I may blow up the entire neighborhood in the process. Might as well hold a loaded gun to my head with my finger on the trigger, nobody is making me step on the gas pedal. I'm fully qualified to know if the car is safe or not, and by signing this I'm saying it is as safe as it is reasonable to make it and safe enough to satisfy me. If it turns out that I'm not qualified then I lied about that so I could drive the car. If you don't believe me check my signature. I also don't have any idea whether I'm even qualified to drive the car. Most likely not. I expect it to go like a bat outa hell, and be faster, quicker, and more vicious than anything I've ever even thought of driving before. I'm looking for a thrill. Probably a real bad idea to even consider driving it, but that's exactly what I plan to do and if it rears up and maims or kills me then I have nobody to blame for it except myself. Not only that, but my family and friends have nobody to blame except me. This paper puts it all on my shoulders and I'm agreeable to that. If I try to say otherwise I'm lying. Either that or I lied when I signed it so I could get to drive the car. Either way I'm taking full responsibility. If the guys who built it made a mistake somewhere and that causes an accident, injury or death I'm not going to blame them for it. They're doing the best they can and for something like that to happen it would have to be beyond their control. So I'm not going to come around asking them to share the blame. In fact, I'm sure enough of what I know about cars that I'm going to assume all of the risk any time I'm operating the car or while I have it. In fact, even if I loan it out or if someone takes it without me knowing it I'll take responsibility for it. You'd better believe I'll make sure there's proof of insurance and the registration is valid. That should just about cover it, and if there's anything I've left out I'll take responsibility for that too. And if some judge says there's any part of this the law won't allow that's fine, but the rest of it stands.

This is a legal document, so it's to be interpreted in accordance with Kentucky Law.
Signed and dated below:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------                    ------------------

I know it's not what you're used to seeing, but I don't see much point in trying to sugar coat the facts. Anyway I look forward to comments.

Jim

[danmas]

Here's another option.

[Bill Young]

Jim, I think that pretty spells it out in language that we all can understand, no "party of the first part" etc. Even this old Okie gets the point, if I drive it and break it I fix it, and if it kills or maims me it's my fault for being there in the first place.
An interesting linkage in the photo Dan posted. That little Watts linkage does clear up a clearance issue with a lower mounted radius arm on that chassis, but requires a custom hub carrier on the other hand. I'd think we would have room for a radius arm pretty much in the location of the original leaf spring. Using poly or rubber/steel bushings would allow for the slight amount of side to side movement required as the IRS works.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Actually the "break it/fix it" part gets put in the custody agreement which I haven't started drafting yet, but I have given it some thought. There are a few issues to work out on that yet. Nothing that can't be done though.

Dan, that is one thought provoking picture. The Watts link on top is just what I was thinking about. I can't see that it's going to totally control fore/aft motion of the upright but the triangulated LCA would do that. It would however do a good job of controlling rotation of the upright about the LCA pivots induced by fore/aft motion, in effect absorbing half of the accel/decel forces. In doing that it could possibly eliminate the need for the LCA triangulation. I'd like to hear Kevin's opinion of that. If we add the top link can we lose the lower strut? The reason I ask, is that in doing it that way we might be able to keep the battery boxes, beef them up a little, and tie them into the front tie bar. That would make a very strong reinforcement to the diff mounts, and since the battery boxes do provide some body stiffening I'd like to be able to keep them.

As far as custom uprights, yes Bill you are at least partly right. We should be able to heliarc a pivot bracket to the top of the stock ones and do the same thing. Guess I need to finish up that TIG rig.

Jim

[castlesid]

Jim,

Pretty sure that is the Contemporary Classic Cobra chassis I mentioned a while ago, it's certainly the same set up for the Watts linkages, I used to see a few of these as a friend of mine was the UK agent for Contemporary, and built some superb cars that you would be hard pressed to tell from the original.

The Watts linkages were used I believe because there was no room on the chassis for the traditional lower links, I still feel that it would be a lot more work to try and adapt the watts linkage than just fitting a pair of triangulated radius arms and not sure there would be enough meat in the top section of the standard hub carriers.

Re the battery cages, I'm fairly sure they are going to have to go if you intend to run with rear brakes!

Keep up the good work,

Kevin.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Kevin, how were the Contemporary Classics cars for laying down power and avoiding wheel hop? Do you know how they behaved? For instance, when mashing the loud pedal did the rear of the car squat or hop? It would sure be helpful to know that as well as what kind of HP or torque they were handling.

That bell section of the stock upright is heftier than it might look. (No cracks btw) I've not done any measuring but the edge looks somewhere between 5/16 and 3/8" thick and I expect it gets thicker towards the bearings, so a chunk of say 5/8 or 3/4 plate cut to match the curve of the bell should spread the load well enough. It might be possible to tie the links into the shock mount holes on the front and the shackle mount on the rear.

Jim

[castlesid]

Jim.

Most of the cars my late friend built were Ford 427 side oilers as per the originals and had 450-550BHP and handled that sort of power without drama.The original cobras just had a lower wishbone and a transverse leaf spring as the top link. I personally have not heard of an IRS car suffering from wheel hop, with the suspension properly located it should just sit down and launch. I used to have back in the late 70's a Jaguar XJ12 coupe and this had the most unbelievable traction, it had a power lock diff that helped and one year we had heavy snow  it got me past all the other cars stuck on the hill out of our valley, I just pulled out on to the virgin snow in the centre of the road and drove up the hill. no other cars made it this being in an era before the urban 4 x 4's.

Kevin.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Kevin, that is most helpful. That also seems rather consistent with the T-bird layout, where there is a massive LCA along with a small UCA but no struts. Interesting approach to be sure. Well, I've been singularly unmotivated to do anything at all the last few days and the tasks I have immediately at hand will prevent any real progress on this for a few days more, but I'll see what I have in the way of materials for an upper lug at least. Perhaps I can get some more done on the tig as well. But mostly I need to make room in the workshop for a job that's coming through. We'll be setting up a prototype line all the way across the building and that means I have to move almost everything and the 'things' have not been cooperating by getting finished. For instance, my roadster is down for brakes. When I converted it to '73 Mustang front brakes I thought the parts would always be available but not so! They've redesigned the hub and rotor into a one piece assembly and I've only found one NOS two piece unit. It's very discouraging when you have to fight a job that way, and if it was only that one it wouldn't be so bad. Just my luck, there's three of them. (Not the RM, but they do keep me from moving it out of the way) Some weeks things just fall into place, and then there's last week. Maybe this one will be better.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Things are moving a bit better today. Here's a shot of the upright sitting on some aluminum plate to illustrate about what I had in mind for the upper attachment point. The plate would be trimmed to fit the radius and moved outward towards the wheel an undetermined amount. Some of the 'bell' may be trimmed back as well to clear the frame.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Chris Palmer in another thread characterized people as 'wrench turners' and 'polishers' and that's a good analogy as far as it goes. I think you can take it farther than that, for instance I would characterize myself as a metalworker. Not in the sense of a guy who puts up building frames or works in a foundry, but in a more artistic sense, as one who enjoys shaping metals and other materials into new forms by whatever means is available. Heaven to me is being able to create the rough shape and knowing that I can turn it over to the polisher to make it pretty. Sometimes I think the polishers would be better at administrative tasks than I am, but somebody's got to do it. So with that excuse I guess I'd better do a proper job of reporting on the last Roadmaster Weekend. I hope nobody is unhappy that I let it go this long, there were an unusually large number of people involved and every one deserves credit for their unique contribution.

Perhaps we should start with Eric DeGroat, brother of our Secretary and Treasurer Steve. By going along with Steve's request that he travel out of his way 500 miles to the south while on his vacation and haul a trailer which he probably didn't otherwise need, Eric allowed our project to continue on schedule and with the best of parts.  Most of you know that Allen Mandeen in Eureka, Kansas had offered us a 455 BBB for use in the project, but that getting it from there to here was a big problem. So Steve and Eric took it upon themselves to solve that problem and get it not only back to Steve's home in South Carolina, but to bring it to Northern Kentucky for teardown and inspection, and then transport it back down to Carl's house in Tennessee. I think we all owe them a really big show of appreciation for that.

It turned out that Allen Mandeen had given us a real jewel. 1970 was the prime year for the Buick 455 and that's exactly what this engine was. Not only that but it showed minimal wear. Truthfully, we could have bolted the heads from the 430 on with fresh gaskets and seals and used it just as it was. But since we expect the car to cover a lot of miles we went ahead and pulled the pistons, which slipped out easily with only a light nudge at the top. The bores looked good and the bearings did too. Allen had evidently used the valves and springs somewhere else, but the heads had a brand new set of rockers. For a donated motor we couldn't have asked for better.

Steve characterizes himself as a wrench turner and he's good at it. Eric is right there with him and they were very efficient about the disassembly. We got quite a bit done but we still had plenty of time to relax in between. During one such intermission I turned the records over to Steve and put him on the bank account. Steve, I'll get the paperwork turned in to the bank today, sorry for being lax about it.

But that's really only part of the story. Dan Masters, who contributed the Jag IRS and the engine stand, had searched through his parts and come up with practically all of the brake pieces we needed, including brand new brake pads and rebuild parts. Steve and Eric made a detour to Dan's house on the way up here to pick those up. Also, Jack Morris in Chatanooga had donated some miscellaneous 300 SBB engine parts in the hopes we could find a way to use them, and he had transported those parts up to Dan's house where Steve and Eric picked them up. The 300 parts turned out to be useful, though their value has not yet been determined. The heads appear to be usable, provided one spark plug hole can be welded and repaired and should be better than the other set I have, so I will buy them and make a donation to the project. Same for the flex plate, which I do not have. Of the remaining parts I'm not sure there is any value there but I haven't completely gone through the box either. So basically I'll be contributing the value of a set of heads and flex plate minus repair costs once we know what those numbers are. Steve, Jack Morris needs to be added to the list of contributors, and Jack, could you please send Steve your contact info? Thanks.

The credits continue though. Carl Floyd managed to set aside precious space in his storage building for us to keep our parts in until Dale Spooner is in town, as well as checking casting numbers and combustion chamber configurations for me once the parts got there, and Dale has volunteered his time and equipment to do any needed machine work on the engine, as well as transporting the parts from Carl's place up to Danville, Virginia and back. For those of you who don't know Dale, he has an excellent reputation for his work with Rover engines, another part of the Buick family. (sort of)

I hope I haven't left anyone out. To be sure we've had lots of support from spouses and other close ones. Let's keep them happy if it's at all possible.

Finally, I'm not sure if I should say anything or not but I feel obliged to mention that Pete might appreciate some sympathy and support for him and his family. It's up to him if more should be said or not but he's our close friend and we want the best for him.

Jim

[mowog1]

re: Finally, I'm not sure if I should say anything or not but I feel obliged to mention that Pete might appreciate some sympathy and support for him and his family. It's up to him if more should be said or not but he's our close friend and we want the best for him.

*******************************
Everything is A-OK in the Mantell household. I was over there on Wednesday.



rick

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Rick, I'm sure glad to hear that.

Also noteworthy, Bill Young has donated another hundred to the cause. Thank you Bill!! This gives him the distinction of being the biggest cash contributor and we sure need the cash. We now have enough to start thinking about what tires we want to put on the car, and we'll have to get those in, mounted and balanced by the start of summer. If we have to we can use solid struts in place of the coil-overs on the rolling chassis but I think the tires are going to be mandatory.

I wanted to post a couple of photos from the last weekend but I've let them disappear somehow. If I can find them I'll put them up. Also the library got me a copy of Tune to Win by Carrol Smith and I'm about a third of the way through it. It'd be a pretty good reference book and for $20 would be worth buying. So far I haven't seen anything there that would require us to change our approach on the suspension, another indication that we are going about this correctly.

Inclement weather and the need to put in some time on some of my own projects has slowed me down a bit but I'll try to get the final measurements for the narrowing of the IRS done this weekend and start cutting metal next week sometime.

Jim

[Bill Young]

The least I can do to support all the efforts of you guys on your end. I'm too far away to make the Roadmaster weekends, althoug I'll try to make at least one during the next year if I can. I'll try to keep the funds coming, the goal is at least the same amount each quarter.

[Citron]

Bill,

Thanks for your donations.  As treasurer, when Jim gets the paperwork done, I will try not to lose it.
BADASS really does appreciate the money.  We can certainly put it to good use.

Steve

[Jacmo]

Jim:  Glad you could find a use for the 300 parts.  About 10 years ago, I stopped at a junkyard in Lexington, TN asking about small block Buick parts and learned that someone had driven this car in the day before I arrived.  They dismantled it for me on the spot and I took all I thought might be useable. The crank, rods, and front cover should be useable to someone--don't know about the oil pan.  
I've sent my contact info on to Steve.

I might be able to make another donation in the spring.  I've got about 5 or 6 complete 215 engines that might be useable as trade material.  Let me know.

Good luck!

[castlesid]

To Jim and all the BADASS gang.

Have a very Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year.

I am looking forward to seeing further progress reports in 2008

Kevin Jackson.

In the very cold and slightly foggy UK.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks to everyone and a merry Christmas to all. If that's not PC enough for anyone, then Happy Holidays to you as well. It's been a good year. The Roadmaster dream was not even a faint glimmer a year ago and look at it now. In only 3 seasons we went from a suggestion by someone over on the V8Buick board, to me sort of tongue-in-cheek trying to persuade someone, *anyone*, to actually try it, to where we are now with a full fledged charitable organization championing the cause and a car well on its way to becoming the real life embodiment of the dream. All of us doubted that it could actually ever be done. By now most of us have become believers, and many of us have pitched in to help it become a reality. The dream has caught our imagination, fed it some nitrous and set it aflame, and now here we are at the start of the new year, very well prepared to carry out the plan, meet our projections and complete the project as intended. It's true we are short of money, but I expect we always will be. Few of us have the resources to divert serious funding to the project, and really I don't think we've promoted that part of what we're doing very hard, or gone looking for any serious money. In a way that's not a bad thing since a big sponsor would naturally want some say in what we are doing and how. As it is, we're working together to build a big toy that we can all play with and have some fun, and I really think we're going to be able to end up with just that. Along the way we've made it possible to promote our sport as well and I can't see that being a bad thing, plus we're pushing the boundaries of what has been done and what can be done. I think when this car is finally ready to roll that we are going to learn that we really like it a lot. It will scare us, intimidate us, astound us, make us think that our buddies have really pushed us over the edge this time, but when we strap in for that first drive I honestly feel we will come back with a grin so wide and embedded so deep that it will never afterwards completely go away. And that's why *I'm* doing it. I think that's why we all are.

So on we go. We will need everyone's help in the coming year, by whatever means is available to you. More than anything we need those of you who are willing to put in some hard work to come in whenever you can and make your efforts count. I won't try to tell you it's easy work, for the most part it is not. It tends to be dirty, difficult, and nasty, but it is rewarding. Every single person who has worked on the car has contributed greatly to bringing the dream alive, and as we've gone along we have taken care of the worst jobs first. I think it's safe to say that with the exception of the bodywork, from here on out the dirtiest work we still have to do will be the welding and possibly kingpin work if they need rebuilt though, so it's safe to say the worst is over. Probably Denny Williams and I had the worst of it. Denny in grinding away welds and removing body panels for use on the car, and me in waterblasting all the crud off the bottom of the car, but we had company too.

Now the next Roadmaster Weekend is the 29th, and it will honestly surprise me if anyone does make it here to work on the car. But if they do we will go out and work on it. In January instead of having a work weekend we will meet at Ted's winter party the weekend of the 26th and drink some beer. We may do some planning, that would probably be a good idea just to keep up appearances if nothing else, but I expect we will have the largest number of our participants in one spot since this thing began, with the possible exception of the last V8 meet. So our (semi-annual) meeting will most likely be held over brewski's while sitting around in lawn chairs in the evening. February, as the coldest month may not see much physical progress either, but as the weather warms up so will our inclination to push on. By then we may be close to getting the engine back from Dale Spooner (Motion Machine, Danville, VA)  and we'll be full of incentive to get the roller done in time for the V8 meet. To be fair, it'll probably be rough at that point. I don't know if the sheet metal work will be done, so far I'm the only person who has stepped in to do any of the welding and if it's left to me to do it as well as the IRS it may have to wait. But the main thing is that we have enough done to put it on display for the meet. When we do that I think we will catch the excitement of the rest of the V8 "brigade" and have the support we will need to finish.

But whatever else happens this I promise you, though I may become tired and need to rest occasionally, I will continue to come back to this dream, continue to lead, continue to work, and continue to encourage you all to do the same, so that we can stand together at the V8 meet in 2009 and look at our handiwork as it's cutting donuts out on the autocross course and share our pride of accomplishment for having created not just a car, but a whole new way of working together. And for that I thank all of you.

Jim

[jimbb88]

If I make it to Ted's, will you have room for the other 2 wheels? That will save me the shipping cost.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Absolutely.

[BlownMGB-V8]

A little more progress here, I was at Fastenal looking for some steel strap and found a length of 1 x 2" rectangular tubing which is what's needed for the main support over the differential. So I bought it and brought it home. I'll cut that 34-1/4" long tomorrow after I pick up new blades for the cutoff saw and it will drop right into place in the recess (or hump) in the shelf, and then work up the end attachments and center plate. It's good to get things moving again.

Jim

[Moderator]

By the way... anyone following the progress of the Roadmaster may enjoy checking out this Newsletter article on it: http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/MGB-Roadmaster.htm

[BlownMGB-V8]

I cut the 1 x 2 tubing and fitted it, looks just right. I have a 1/8" difference in length for the GT and for the mockup mule (roadster) so I take it the assembly fitting jigs had tolerances that made panel fitting something of a slap together affair. Anyway, I'm working up the attachment points, but will have to get some more materials for that. A couple feet of 1-1/4 x 3/4 rectangular tubing with about a 1/8" wall would be perfect but I'll probably have to buy a 20' length to get it. Things like this really slow down the project, I mean look how long it took me to get the 1 x 2 tubing. The good news is that I can work on some of the rest of the mount in the meantime. I'd like to get the diff attached to the car and then cut the axles that way I don't have to worry about anything moving around.

Been thinking about the pinion angle. We didn't measure the engine angle as installed, I guess we overlooked it, which means I really should reinstall the short block and tranny and check it. I won't be able to attach the front motor mounts but should be able to approximate the engine's position by blocking it up from the crossmember about 1/4". Of course that means having to bolt the xmember back on as well. Ain't hindsight great? I don't remember if the xj6 diff had a built in angle or not but 6* seems familiar, guess I'll have to look at the articles. If it does that would be about perfect because I can build in that much adjustment in the opposite direction real easy. That way the diff could be bolted in place and the optimum pinion angle set and locked by drilling the plate for the second shock bolt while the first one with an adjustment slot holds the adjustment in place. The correct links for the LCA's could then be selected to keep the arms horizontal. Doing it this way there's no need to worry about the driveline angle at this point, it can be dealt with at any time, even after the rest of the car is finished. If there is no built in angle it gets a little trickier, as the adjustment has to start out with an offset of several degrees somewhere and I haven't figured out the best way to do that yet, probably have to weld the diff mounting plate to the cross piece at an angle. Wouldn't be nearly as neat that way.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

I've confirmed the 6 degree housing angle, so the next item is vertical height of the housing. Here I need some help from those of you who either have or have done a Jag swap. I need to determine the distance from the top diff mount up to the shelf (or to the top of the raised rib that the rear bulkhead attaches to, either will work) and to do this perhaps the simplest bits of information for you to get is: 1) Do the half shafts run parallel to the ground normally, and 2) what is the distance from the (bottom edge of the) body trim line to the hub centerline?

If the shafts run parallel at rest it should be a simple matter to derive the housing height from that measurement. If they do not, perhaps having a friend or two put their weight on it until the shaft is level (parallel with the ground) and then measuring the hub distance would do the trick. Thanks guys.

Jim