MGB GT V8 Racing

[John Hamilton]

Does anyone have record or knowledge of MGB's racing with the V8 prior to 1975?  I'd like to get my V8 project accepted into CVAR and they require some proof that a similar car was raced back in the day.  The earliest results I've seen are from about 1976 and that isn't early enough.  What about Costello race cars?  Anyone know if any Costello cars were raced when they were new?  I'll get pics up as soon as I get working on the car again.

Thanks, John

[Phillip G]

John Hamilton,

I know of no one ever racing a MG B GT V8 in any SCCA class, for the SCCA Production Racing Classes never included or recognized the MG B GT V8 as an eligible model from BLM (the mfg.).  And ....of course, the MG B V8 (roadster) was never a "production" model" , so ,therefore, it was never included or recognized as included or recognized by the SCCA as a car in the "Production" classes - you know, A Production, B Production, C Production, D Production, E, F, G & H Production.  
FYI, the SCCA dropped A, B, C, & D Production classes years ago and only E, F, & H Production classes are still recognize "Production classes, eligible for Regional and National SCCA races - and the SCCA National Championships.

That said, it only applies to US of A SCCA Regional and National racing over the past 30 (or so years, or more).  There are other racing venues and perhaps they have recognized the MGB GT V8 at one time in some of their classes, the FIA with the Sebring and Daytona and LeMans races, for instance.  I really have never heard of a MGB GT V8 racing in any recognized class - let alone, the MGB V8 (roadster).

It is an interesting question and now I am curious as to the possibility of the MGB V8 ever having raced in a recognized class.

You say the earliest results date from before l976.  Please let me know what and, when, where and who raced a MGB V8 - either GT or roadster - in the past.  That particular  MGB chassis would be extremely rare and famous and I am just not familiar with it.

Good luck in racing your MGB V8 - I assume it is a GT.  If it is, you can now race it in the SCCA in the GT2 class, which allows  almost unlimited modifications.

Keep thm on the track,

Phillip G

[Moderator]

One of these days we'll prove an MGB-V8 conversion was raced by somebody, somewhere, in the 1960's. My intuition is that rallies or hillclimbs are your best bet... probably not SCCA!  I think you're much more likely to strike gold on boards that cater to those kinds of racing.

You apparently already know that this factory MGB GT V8 prototype is easily documented as having competed in the Cheltenham Stages Rally of July 1975. (Two other factory prototypes were also raced. One finished 2nd overall in "The Palydor Rally" of August 1976, and the other finished 3rd in class in "The Welsch International Rally" of 1977.)





These next three probably won't help you... but I'll include them for encouragement:  

It's fairly well known that Paul Cunningham of California (who was a friend of Mickey Thompson) raced this MG-TC / Buick 215 V8 conversion actively in 1962:


An MGB V8 conversion was completed in 1966 and owned by a fairly famous amateur racer named Dr. George Snively. (He was the founder of the Snell Foundation.) IF you could document that he entered his MGB in a recognized event/class you'd open doors for a lot of wannabe racers!  He probably autocrossed it...

Rules for hillclimbs have always been looser than road racing. Lots of hillclimb cars have engine swaps. Allen Reid has been actively racing his MGB GT V8 hillclimb car in British Columbia for the last several years.  

[Phillip G]

Now that is what this Forum is great at !  A lot of enthusiasts out there know of the British V8 Forum and their contributions are remarkable !

Soon, we may see some racers of MGB GT V8's in the SCCA GT2 class !

Keep them on the track,

Phillip G

[Moderator]

I took a moment to search on another forum, and came across an interesting entry by Ian McKean himself:

Regarding the suitability of the Healey 3000 to forestry stages, yes it was powerful, but it had limited suspension travel and had lever arm dampers. Bilstein and so on did not do lever arms! I rallied a MGB V8 with lever arms in 1975 and found them quite hopeless. On the Chieftain, as soon as they faded away (pretty early in every stage, presumably when the fluid boiled) they might as well not have been there. Have you ever driven a car without dampers? I have - servicing for a Saab on the Welsh (round about 1968) that needed new rear dampers I gave him mine and carried on without. Not recommended!!!!!!!! Well the MGB on Salisbury Plain was pretty much as bad.


When I put gas-filled Girling telscopics on the back of the MGB it only served to show how bad the front was. I later discovered that the works Healeys used remote fluid reservoirs to provide more fluid for their lever arm dampers (why didn't I think of that?) But even so I doubt that it rode the forests nearly as well as a car with modern (i.e. 1965 as opposed to 1950) suspension. If I were offered a Lotus or a Healey for a forest event I know which I would choose.

[Moderator]

Another interesting near miss: Peter Lewis rallycrossing his MGB GT V8 in 1977

(I believe the location is Longridge.)

[djw090]

I think you need to look at MG Car Club racing in the UK.
The MGB GT V8 was a production model from August 1973. I am sure someone will have ventured out in one in either the '73 or '74 season for either the MGCC's race meetings or the speed championship (hillclimb and sprint).
Back issues of Safety Fast, the MGCC magazine, from that period may have pictures.

The following link might help:

http://www.mgcc.co.uk/registers-topmenu-36/post-war/v8-register-topmenu-109.html

[Phillip G]

MGB V8 racing curious,

Of course, we must not limit our curiosity as to MGB V8 racing history to simply racing "Production" eligible MGB V8's in the Sports Car Club of America Regional and National races over the past 40 years.

There have been other forms of sports car racing of MG B V8's, of course, but does that really matter ?  Some - me included - would maintain that the only form of real sports car racing available to real sports car racers is real racing in the SCCA and the races sanctioned and recognized by the SCCA as Regional and National races.  Everything else is play and games.

That said, I do hope the overstatement is recognized - to kick off a controversy and a discussion of what sports car restoration and racing really involves.

Let's have at it.

and cheers,

Phillip G.

[Moderator]

Now Phillip! Defining "real" racing as SCCA racing is provocative. One could just as easily (and arbitrarily) say real racing can only exist if there are two or more cars of essentially similar characteristics going wheel-to-wheel. You might have to enter a bunch of races to find a competitor you can "really" race against because the other SCCA GT2 cars will be too different from yours for the results to be interesting. On the other hand, when Les Gonda and Jerry Richards were fighting tooth and nail all the way around V.I.R. last June... now that was a real race! (Unfortunately, it was a rather brief one.)  

"Real" racing mush surely exist outside of North America. Surely the CVAR will be happy to recognize British, Australian, or New Zealand racing history.

The Vintage Sports Car Club of Britain maintains a serious library of race, hillclimb and trials results - with "real librarians" who work on Wednesdays only and can be solicited to search through their extensive archive of race results plus old racing magazines, etc.  - Apparently they get so many requests for information that the VSCC website screens their calls by only making their phone numbers available to club members. John Hamilton, it might be worth joining VSCC! More info here: http://www.vscc.co.uk/vsccweb/questions/default.jsp?section=6  

My concern is that they CVAR might consider the GT and the roadster two different cars. Must we find a GT V8 that raced before 1975, or will any MGB V8 suffice?

[John Hamilton]

The car I'm building is a 1968 MGB GT, but I think CVAR would accept either body style if I could find proof.  They do have a class for FIA cars up to 1974 and use the SCCA 1972 GCR for the Production classes.  With some proof of V8's racing in Europe or Australia in the early '70s, I could probably get it accepted or perhaps a waiver so I could run it without collecting points.  I'm building it to SVRA rules, so I will have options on where to race it, but I enjoy the folks at CVAR and would like to run it in Texas.

[castlesid]

As far as I know the only MGB race cars sanctioned by an international body ie FIA and raced in the UK are original MGB roadsters up to 1860cc and pre 1966.

I don't think the MGBGT V8 was ever homologated for FIA racing but I could be wrong.

In the UK we have numerous clubs which have their own race series and regulations so it's quite possible that MGB GT V8's were raced in period and were probably allowed into some production classes.

There are currently at least three series in which the MGB GT and Roadster V8's are eligible, MGOC, Butler Championship and the BCV8 Championship which I watch at my local track Brands Hatch, The full race spec is similar to the SCCA spec except they can use in the top class full race 3.9 engines, no EFI  and the roll cage isn't allowed to form part of the chassis or stiffen the body.

You pictured the cars of John Wilson and Adrian Beer recently and they are a joy to watch lapping Brands in around 50 secs which isn't slow, average speed approx 80MPH on a tight twisty circuit.

Hope that's of interest.

[Phillip G]

I, too don't think the MGB GT V8 was ever recognized or homologated by the FIA or ever raced in FIA sanctioned races.  I could be wrong, of course, and I hope I am in this case.

Even more so, I don't think any MGB V8 roadster was ever recognized by a sanctioning body or ever homologated by the FIA.  Again, I hope I am wrong and I hope somebody can come up with some info to prove me wrong.

Let us split some hairs, here and while we are at it ..... let us specify the above ....(specifically) during the span of time when the MGB GT V8 was in production by the manufacturer.  Or do we even go there ?  

Worse yet, do we ever want to bring up the minimum official number of units manufactured by the "factory" during a single production year - in order to meet the minimum production requirements of the SCCA and sanctioning bodies such as the FIA ?

Oh what a tangled web

Keep them on the track

Phillip G

[Moderator]

With some proof of V8's racing in Europe or Australia in the early '70s, I could probably get it accepted or perhaps a waiver so I could run it without collecting points.

CalClub ("California Sports Car Club") is a regional SCCA affiliate. They generally followed SCCA rules, but they allowed cars to race that weren't specifically recognized by SCCA.  I think the MG-TC V8 (above) is a clear example of that. It raced at multiple CalClub events over two seasons, including the Riverside GP of 1962. CalClub still exists.  I wonder if they have a club historian.  You might possibly get some leads from their message board, which is here: http://www.calclub.com/forums/index.php

[BlownMGB-V8]

Well gee, does dirt track racing count? My car has a racing history, it was run on the roundy-round in southern West Virginia before I got it. Amazingly enough, it wasn't beat up!

Jim