Did a compression test on my stroked Olds 215, not good. #4 cylinder at 50 lbs.

[Gswest236]

It did turn clockwise to tighten. After watching a few videos I think my issue is common. The type i have will work but it's not the easiest and can result in damage to the oil ring. I ordered a much smaller one that only accommodates 3.5- 3.58, I think. Not a ratchet type. We'll see. Don't want to screw up the rings. Also I reached out to Mark at D+D to see if these rear main adaptors are meant to be reused and if so how to remove the doweled section without damaging it (Left a message on their voicemail)  before I install the pistons, I need to make the decision on trying to get that pesky seal retainer back out or move forward.
Thanks!

[mgb260]

Scott, EDIT: no protruding edge. If the roll pins are straight you should be able to pry with a screwdriver in the middle?

[Gswest236]

Thanks Jim, Mark with D+D called me back and said to use a smaller drill bit and drill out the rolled pins to release the clamping force of the pin. Since I'm waiting on the new piston ring compressor I guess I'm taking the crank back out. Fun times!

[BlownMGB-V8]

The tips of new vise grip jaws of the WR variety have a remarkably good crosshatch pattern on the jaw tips which is why I recommend them here. The surfaces you will be clamping against, front and rear, serve no operational function and are not harmed by a little surface damage. The pliers themselves need to be locked on just as tight as you can get them with both hands and with nothing between the seal and the jaws. Done correctly I don't think there's any way if those pins were drilled in straight that they can prevent you from prying that seal back out and you'll do less significant damage to it than with any other method. Unless those pins are mild steel (unlikely) you may need a carbide drill bit to touch them and going off to the side is a very real risk.

Jim

[Gswest236]

I'll give it a shot Jim. The pins go in at angles as seen in the pic. I'm not sure if the angle will prevent the piece from lifting straight out??? If they come out a little, I should be able to pry em out though.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Yeah that's going to be a bit of a problem but if the pins are mild steel it should move and you will bend them and slightly deform the holes so you will need to do some quality deburring and possibly get new pins, though you might be able to reuse them. If the pins are hardened you might break one making the remaining piece hard to get out. Seems to me the safe approach would be to first try a drill bit the same size as the hole to see if you can put a centering divot in the end of the pin. If you can it's not hardened and that simplifies things. At that point carefully drilling through it with a smaller bit should only help as long as you don't break out the side of the pin. If these are 1/8" pins it might be good to start with a 3/32 or smaller, whatever you feel comfortable with. The smaller bits will go through easier, making it easier to keep the drill straight, but are also easier to break so you have to be careful. The main thing is to stay straight with the hole. If you feel it break out do not go any deeper. If you manage to get all the way through and are still drilling through the pin and not into the block (the shavings look different) you can go up 1/64 at a time until you are as close as you dare. At that point it should be quite easy to pull the insert with the visegrips.

I would avoid prying under the insert because you will raise burrs that will then have to be removed. Also it may be quite difficult to pry equally from front and back at the same time to avoid cocking the insert while also protecting the bearing saddle. I think we now know what happened to your old seal insert.

Jim

[Gswest236]

Well that did not go well. It wouldn't budge trying to remove it with my vice grips. The rolled pins must be hardened steel; broke multiple small bits and the larger bits dulled immediately. Made some progress loosening it but its deformed from the prying, so now its just about getting it out. My mistake, frustration set in after about 2 hours. I guess I need a few carbide bits to finish it. ....It'l be fine.
Thanks for the tips!

[BlownMGB-V8]

Try not to get too frustrated with it, and when you do just stop. Lay down the tools and walk away for a bit.

Since the block is aluminum your odds are pretty good for removing the insert without breaking the pins. The aluminum will deform some. Don't worry about removing it evenly. If you can get one end up, go with it. You may have burrs to clean up afterwards almost certainly but you should be able to reuse the part if you don't resort to hammers and such.

Jim

[Gswest236]

I know sometimes a break can work wonders. Today I'm getting some carbide bits and getting it out. It will come out about 3/16" which gave me a place to tap up on. But of course thats where some marring occurred. Then I noticed it wasn't sitting right in the cavity anymore. We'll see once its out if its salvageable. Appreciate the help!

[Gswest236]

So, the good news is I got the  seal adaptor piece out today. Bad news is the aluminum piece is not usable. Drilled out too much material, distorted the roundness of it.  But, I have this identical piece that survived the machining process. It may not be ideal, but it fits perfectly to my eye and mates up to the other piece fine. Maybe a little RTV between the two mating surfaces to make up for any slight differences. Not buying another $250 seal adaptor kit from D+D. But Mark from D+D did help me understand what I had to do to get it out. Jim B. Was on the money when he advised using multiple bits and enlarging the opening in the rolled pins in steps. Essentially thats what I did today. I got a carbide tipped 5/32 bit and used multiple regular bits to slowly reduce the pins tension. Now I have to clean up a bunch of RTV thats on the other half of the bearing/seal retainer and do it right this time.
Thanks!

[Gswest236]

Not a pretty picture!

[mgb260]

Scott, Quite the ordeal!

[Gswest236]

I learned something and now I know how to solve this particular problem, I created. If I encountered this issue again, I would get 3 or 4 carbide tipped bits and gradually open the center of the pins. Probably save the piece doing it slowly.
Thanks!

[BlownMGB-V8]

Glad you got it. I'm guessing that's the other half of your new seal adapter and the 2nd half of the old one. Should work fine. I really don't understand why they didn't run the pins in parallel so it could be removed. Here's a tip though, using a smaller drill, run the holes all the way through the cap that way in the future should it need to be removed you can drive the pins back out.

Jim

Also just for info, unless there's something new on the market carbide tipped drills are normally used for masonry and at least in these small sizes the drills are solid carbide rather than tipped. The masonry ones aren't really ground properly for using on metal. There may be others I'm not aware of but the distinction is important to know.

[Gswest236]

There's a few that say multi material or something, that includes metal. But I know the solid carbide are better. I had a problem finding those at Lowes though. So, the new holes should go straight through and straight down?

[BlownMGB-V8]

Not necessarily. Starting out I'd have maybe done that but now it doesn't matter much as long as you can still get the pins out. That's why I mentioned drilling all the way through the caps. At the same time you don't want the pins to fall out the bottom so that's the reason for the reduced diameter in the holes. I'm assuming you have no pins on the top piece into the block, right?

One advantage of putting the pins in vertical is that you won't have the pins and insert fighting against you when you torque down the cap, as they will just compress with the rest of it. Running them angled assumes that the insert is absolutely fully seated and can't move any further. That's maybe not the easiest thing to do.

Jim

[Gswest236]

Yep, there's no pins called for in the top position. Obviously they didn't want the whole piece to spin. The previous builder only had one pin installed. That's maybe why it came out in the honing machine or whatever it was. I think I'll drill 2 holes inside where the originals are. I ordered some new carbide bits. Gotta clean up the residual RTV on the block section . This RED Permatex ain't coming off without a fight.

[BlownMGB-V8]

My suspicion is that the machinist or prep guy at the shop decided to remove the inserts and  destroyed the insert doing it, not entirely unlike your experience.

When we made dies we always made sure there was a way to remove locating and guide pins, often with a punch hole. That's what you should do here I think, and as your pin holes are there already they only need to be transferred to the new insert piece. That's easily done if you first drill your punch holes in the cap, Making sure they are centered and straight with the pin holes. Go 1/64 smaller in diameter and drill through then use the punch holes to guide your bit into the insert, making sure the insert is clamped securely into the cap, maybe by bolting it back to the block with both inserts in place. Then enlarge the holes in the insert and test for fit. If it needs adjustment at that point you can drive the pins back out. These pins really only need to prevent the insert from spinning and the seals will capture them, so if they end up a little loose you can put in some loctite and it'll be alright.

Jim

[Gswest236]

Thanks Jim. With what I know now, the process will be easier if needed again. You said the pins would be hardened and they were. My drills aren't high speed by any means and drilling this bearing retainer is hard. If I had a really good drill press, it would be so much easier. I've got the RTV cleaned off the parts (no easy task). So I'm ready to get the crank back in correctly. I just have to remember the RTV goes  between the adaptor piece and the bearing/seal retainer BEFORE I DRIVE THE PINS IN!

[Gswest236]

I got the seal adaptor reinstalled after applying the RTV. I did end up drilling all the way through in case I needed to knock the pins out again. I was able to drive in 2 new rolled pins and everything is lined up so it looks like the crank can go back in.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Very good. Carry on.

Sealing up the rear cap is the next oil challenge. Black Gasket Maker or even Right Stuff is useful here as it holds up a bit better. Smear a thin layer of sealant on the back side of the seal, offset the ends 1/4" or so, and put sealant on the ends where they butt together. Make sure there is no gap first.

Smear sealant on the horizontal surface of the cap and around the seal end. You want to use enough but avoid excess. Install the cap and find a way to squirt sealant into the bottom of the seal channel at the side of the cap while avoiding air pockets. I haven't tried using the tube that comes with the pressurized cans of Right Stuff but if that tube will fit in the groove that'd be the way to do it. What you want is for your sealant to be forced out through the gap in the ends between the horizontal and vertical surfaces where the corner of the cap is chamfered. Use of the rubber block is optional but if you use it you also should use the nail and trim both flush with the pan surface. It doesn't have to go all the way down as long as you have plenty of sealant in there as well. The oil will exploit any flaw in the overall sealing scheme here.

Jim

[Gswest236]

Thanks Jim, I got the RTV in the vertical and horizontal flange area. Using D+Ds instructions on where to put the RTV sealant. I thinks its good to go. I feel much better about it now and as soon as the new spring compressor gets in I can get the pistons in. Currently the website isn't giving me the option to upload pics for some reason???

[Scott Costanzo]

Thanks Jim, I got the RTV in the vertical and horizontal flange area. Using D+Ds instructions on where to put the RTV sealant. I thinks its good to go. I feel much better about it now and as soon as the new spring compressor gets in I can get the pistons in. Currently the website isn't giving me the option to upload pics for some reason???

Try using "Modify" from the "More" menu rather than the "Quick Reply" if you are adding images.

Let us know if you have any other issues. 

Scott

[Gswest236]

Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately the "More" option only gives me report to moderator, modify, ??

[Scott Costanzo]

Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately the "More" option only gives me report to moderator, modify, ??

Sorry about that. "User Actions" -> "Reply"