LS4

[mgb260]

Jim, The Jeep Wrangler 2.5 bellhousing would work for the W58 found in late 80's Toyota Celica Supras with a stock LS4. W58 is smaller than the others. The Dodge Dakota 2.5 bellhousing will fit the later 90's Toyota Supra and some Lexus R154 and Colorado/Canyon forward shifter/Solstice/Skye rear shifter. The Colorado/Canyon/Solstice/Sky Aisan tranny is the most common and a very good transmission, almost identicle io the R154 with better syncros, Mallet does LS6 450HP swaps in Solstice. They use common GM input and yoke. They have around 3.7  first gear where the older Toyota has about a 3.2 first ratio. So I would recommend higher rear gears. You might be able to shorten Solstice shifter housing to move shifter about 3" forward or use on Colorado to move shifter back 3". Picture of Solstice tranny.

[MGBV8]

I've looked long & hard at that engine. Seemed to be the most economical LS engine, The starter is what stalled it, though. I'm not keen on the Toyota trans gear ratios, either. I would rather keep my T-5.

Only 300hp, so?  That's double what I'm working with now.  

[mgb260]

Carl, I'm looking at using the 2.2 bellhousing with  T5. Same setup as used with the 3400/3500 V6.

[MGBV8]

It's getting real interesting here, Jim.  I may have to ditch the old 215, yet.

Gotta scat. I'm off to Durham, NC for the MG Roadmaster work weekend at Flying Circus English Cars.

[mgb260]

Old picture from Greg's classic "what fits what" of Colorado 5 speed compared to Muncie 4 speed:

[mgb260]

R154 Supra shifter position is close to MGB, right inbetween the Colorado and Solstice. You can see they look almost identicle except  shifter position. AX15 is furthest forward  like S10 T5. R154 supra picture:

[Scott Costanzo]

Here's my idea for an LS4 starter solution. First, I want to say that I am very interested in Jim's idea as I'm using a 2.2 bellhousing on my V6. One thing I want to avoid though, if possible, is modifying the starter. It would be nice to buy an off the shelf unit in the event of a failure. Went through that with my alternator on the way back from Palestine. (ask Jim and Dan) I'm also not keen on using a block plate, I need to keep the engine as short as possible. So while I'm keeping my eye on Jim's progress I've been thinking about the following approach for quite some time.



I'm thinking that this starter, the picture is from the JEGS site and is one of their Preform mini-starters, would be a great starting point. There are a million of these available on Ebay as well. Notice how the starter gear housing is offset from the rest of the starter. It's really hard to get a sense of size from all the pictures I looked at and I looked high and low for the dimensions of one of these but couldn't find any. (if anyone is using one of these and could get some measurments that would be great!) To me it looks like the gear housing is less than 2 inches in diameter. If so, then the starter gear would be well less than an inch from the edge of the housing which would be good for the LS4 situation.



My idea is to modify the aluminum plate used on the starter so the starter gear snuggles up to the flywheel ring gear. This picture shows the passenger side of the block with no bad art work in the way.



In this very bad mock-up picture, the blue image represents the aluminum plate the starter is bolted to. The purple stuff could be angle iron..or something heavy/strong so the starter won't shift/move once it is bolted in place. The left most purple thing shows a hole at the very top, that is the bottom bellhousing bolt hole, which goes through the block and requires a nut at the front to keep it tight. I don't know the size of the bolt but it is very beefy. On the right side of the picture, the hole labeled "Drill Block" would require drilling the block. The aluminum is pretty thick in this area so it shouldn't be an issue. There probably won't be enough room to bolt the angle iron to the front of the block but there should be plenty to bolt it to the flywheel side. You could use shims between the angle iron and starter to ensure the starter was absolutely parallel with the flywheel.



You will notice something labeled "partially grind off" in one of the previous pictures. This picture gives a better idea of what I'm talking about here. This is cast into the block and it appears it might need to be partially shaped so the starter will fit. Depending on how extensive the shaping is, this would be a good place to anchor a brace that you could bolt to the bottom of the starter aluminum plate to further stablize it. You could even add a brace of some sort from the block to the front of the starter housing like some of the earlier SBC starters used. The goal of this approach is minimal modification to the block and no block plate.

It would be nice to keep the 142 tooth flywheel in my case but you could go with the 148 tooth S-10 flywheel which would give you about a 1/4" (give or take) more flywheel to work with. It's about a 1/2" larger diameter than the 142 tooth.

I hope this is somewhat clear. It's really hard to discribe something like this. Does this sound crazy or possible? I'd be interested in any feedback from the group.

Anyway, there has to be an easy solution to this. It is just a matter of finding it.

-- Scott

[Scott Costanzo]

Jim, here are some pictures of the other side of the block. Not sure if you have any of these. Hope they are helpful.


Here is a view of the bellhousing side


Here is a view of the oil filter side


Here, the 6" mark on the tape measure is centered on the crank. I believe the 142 tooth flywheel is just a shade less than 12" in diameter.

Regards

-- Scott

[mgb260]

Scott, those pictures help but, could you back up a little and get a good shot of where the starter would go. Your idea might work if you grind that tab all the way off and grind staight up. I do have a good picture of  factory LS V8 starter mount.

[mgb260]

I like Scott's idea ,but in the drawing instead of the square starter mount,use a 3/8" steel plate.  Bolted to the bellhousing bolt and block and  with a tab also bolted to the thick boss. Then instead of using the mini starter drill 2 mounting holes for the Northstar starter. May have to have a spacer to line up teeth. A rear mount to oil pan rail would probably be a good idea also. Ugly drawing but kind of like Jim Bs idea. Drawing doesn't show tab bolted to boss.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Jim N, I like that one. Run a gusset from the bottom over to the pan flange bolt and you have a nicely triangulated and rigid mount, and there are a variety of starters that would work with it I think.

Jim

[BWA]

This is a fascinating thread!  My question is about the ECU.  Would you be able to use the ECU that came with the donor car?  I am putting a GM 3400 in my TR6 and we are using the original ECU and engine harness.  We have stripped all the extraneous stuff out of the harness and we are getting the ECU reprogrammed.  Would you have to do the same for the LS4 ECU or is there an easier route?

Cheers
Byron

[Scott Costanzo]

Jim N, here's a wider shot showing more of that side of the block.



It looks like it is possible to grind the block a little to gain some room in the area down and to the right of the bellhousing bolt. I'm still having difficulty in seeing how the Northstar starter is going to fit in that space. It would be helpful to know the dimensions of it. Next time I get to the junkyard I'm going to go looking for one. It would be great to be able to use it.

-- Scott

[Scott Costanzo]

Byron,
You'd have to do the same with the LS4 ecu. I think MS3 is a better way to go.

Regards

-- Scott

[BlownMGB-V8]

Putting a flex plate or starter on the motor would help a whole lot in visualizing the mount. There may be plenty of room for the pinion to engage the ring gear but without the parts you can't tell.  Another thing I noticed is the vertical hole in the fixturing boss along the pan rail. A close fitting pin there could allow the large bolt to be the only fastener needed on the mounting plate, because they are in opposing planes.

As an alternative, if you look at the bellhousings which have a starter bulge in that location, they do have attachment bolt bosses. Maybe not in the best locations but below the block attachment there are a couple available so a simple aluminum plate of the correct thickness attached to the bellhousing using those  bosses should also work quite well. Possibly the mounting plate could be combined with the dust cover for additional rigidity.

Jim

[Scott Costanzo]

Jim, unfortunately no flex plate came with the motor. I'll try to fab something up  out of cardboard. The fixturing boss may have to go away depending on which starter is used. It will be very tight for sure.

Scott

[mgb260]

Scott, I chose the Northstar starter as it is compact(mini starter) and has the smallest 2 bolt mount. I didn't realize I could mount on the opposite side with no alteration. I think I finally found a good picture of one. You would have better luck getting one off Ebay. GM mounted it inside the engine valley under the intake manifold. You should be able to find a 2.2 flywheel at the junkyard. The Northstar flywheel/flexplate is 142 tooth also. I don't know if it would work but thats the main reason I chose the starter. I know the 2.2 plugged and redrilled will.

[mgb260]

Here is a flywheel interchange,unfortunately the LS4 only came with a Auto trans flexplate. I wonder if it would interchange with another vehicle with same bolt pattern? I know the 95 and older 2.2 and FWD 2.8 and 3.1 and 3100 and 3400 flywheels will work if plugged and redrilled. G136 is the flexplate  in the interchange but would help in finding what cars had flywheels that would work.


http://www.kingomatic.com/documents/KOM_Flywheel_Catalogue.pdf

[BlownMGB-V8]

I think the other LS series flywheels can be used if the OD is turned down and the smaller ring gear is fitted. Some of the Fiero guys are doing that. There may be a thin spacer needed (or not) or the back side trimmed a bit. Apparently the LS4 flange doesn't stick out quite as far. Seems I saw something on that, maybe in the range of 3mm to 3/16". I don't know if it would be any problem in our application. This remedy also gives us a little more leeway in positioning the starter both fore/aft and in the size of the ring gear. I have some old 215 ring gears, I wonder what is the largest size that will fit in the bellhousing? (It also affects our largest clutch size.)

Jim

[mgb260]

Jim B, I think the 142 is snug in the 2.2 bell, the slightly larger 148 in the RWD bellhousings. Diameter aproximately 11 1/2"-11 3/4". LS4 crank flange is 3mm shorter than other LS. Front snout is 10mm shorter. all made to fit transverse FWD. Joe Shafer told me 2.2 flange is 1/8" aproximately inside engine bellhousing flange. Scott said the LS4 is .012.

[mgb260]

Bracket with tab:

[Scott Costanzo]

Made a flywheel out of cardboard. I sized it at the 148 tooth size and marked the 142 tooth size to show the comparison.



This one shows the difference in size between the 142 and 148 tooth flywheels. The 142 tooth line you see on the mockup measures 1" along the top by the bellhousing extension on the block from the block to the line. The edge of the mockup which is the 148 tooth diameter measures about 1.25"



Here's one along the edge of the block.


I got the diameters of the flywheels off of Rockauto:

148 - 12.5"
142 - 11.875"

[BlownMGB-V8]

Looks like it'll have to be the 142, yes?
That will show how big the starter can be and if the offset gear drive is required or the Northstar starter can be used without cutting the block.

Guys, I think we almost have a plan in place.

Jim

I didn't realize that fixturing boss stuck out so far. I think it'll have to go.

[mgbreis]

You guys finish this up while I go out to garage and yank out my 5.0! I want one!

Will a ford pattern t5 bolt up to the 2.2 bellhousing?

[socorob]

Yes. I think it has to be the ford straight up pattern.