GB replica minilite wheels?

[MGBV8]

Thanks, Graham. That's a big help knowing the inside scoop..

"I can't say exactly why I don't care for those flares. Sort of a visual thing because of that small vertical section."

Well, what about the Sebring flares? They look better on a GT than a roadster.



Otherwise, with no flares I'm for 225/50-15 rear & 205/55-15 front on 7" wheels or König – Helium 15X6.5 at only 11.6 lbs!

[BlownMGB-V8]

On second thought, the Huffaker flares don't look so bad. He had two versions, 2" and 3" IIRC. I'd guess these are the 2" flares on Pete Smith's car and they're not bad at all. I believe the 3" ones looked a lot more like the Sebring flares. So what do the Omni flares give you an inch or so? Personally I'd just as soon work with steel. I guess it really comes down to what is donated though. Which is a good reason to plan the axle width without the flares I would think.

Jim

[MGBV8]

Yeah, the rear Sebrings are pretty bulky.

I like the stock look, BUT i keep daydreaming about what a 5" wider track might do for the handling.

[Mr. T]

Those omni flares are fairly subtle and will probably get you the extra 5" (outside to outside). You guys remember Joe in a previous thread stating that he had 63" at rear and 61" at front, that's getting close (well the rear is) to a miata.

[rficalora]

The omni flares are 3" wide each but when installed on the MG you get about 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" per side due to the angle of the body -- e.g. the flare mounts to the MG higher up on the body curve so you're not starting at the widest part of the body shell.  You can probably get a bit more or less depending exactly where you mount them, but not much.

As for the inner fender... i haven't done mine, but i've done a lot of looking at them.  Looks to me like it won't be too tough to split them down the middle lengthwise (there's a seam down the middle already) & drill out the spot rivets in the outer half... then re-install with a piece of sheet metal with a simple curve to fill the gap.  no compound curves to deal with.  I hope to be doing mine within the next month; will let you know how it goes.

I do think if you have the rear axle out, it's not a bad idea to go ahead & remove the bump stop bulges... why not?  It's easy to do when the stuff is off the car & the extra space will likely come in handy.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I measured a couple of spare axles. On the disc wheel axle I got 51-1/2", that should be within 1/8" on the measurement. The width of the wire wheel axle, a surprise, was 49-3/4", making it 2-1/4" narrower. The wire wheel axle came off our Roadmaster GT, so it'd be a '69 and the disc wheel axle should be about the same vintage.

I also measured the bump. The most that we could expect to gain there is 3/4" per side. If not for the shock bolts this would be a full 1". So given these measurements, can you guys recommend a width for the axle, assuming we cut the bumps and keep the shock bolts? Thx

Jim

Oh, and the inner fenders aren't bad at all. You do them exactly as Rob suggests. I'm in favor of the Omni flares if someone can get us a set.
J

[Bill Young]

Jim, I know how much you want to get something done on the project, but when you're dealing with such small clearance issues every 1/4" is important. Best to wait until you have the tires and wheels and then work from there. Changing the width of an axle assembly is just too much work to have to do twice and adding spacers will work but not necessarily the best solution.
As far as forming a sway bar, what Graham did works fine for small adjustments, but it's easy to just heat the bar up, bend it to the shape desired and then retemper in a good spring furnace. I made the rear bar for my Midget from a small rear bar from some type of Japanese import I don't remember. I chose it because of the diameter, not the shape. I had to change almost every bend in the bar to work, just heated with my torch and bent away in my vise. When I had a shape I liked I took it to the local spring shop and for $20 they ran it through the furnace. Worked great.

[rficalora]

No promises, but let me look at the spares I have.  I may be able to help with the omni flares Jim.

Rob

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Rob, that would help a lot. Very, very much in fact.

Bill, I completely understand what you're telling me, but I really need to get going on those lower control arms as soon as possible. I don't want to be trying to get it done 2 weeks before the meet. If we take things in the proper order then we'd do the flares, acquire wheels and tires, fit everything up and then do the axle but any delay puts the show at risk. Yes, I'm getting a little anxious because of the inactivity over the winter. More than anything I'm worried about the wheels and tires. If I can get the axle done then any old junkyard wheels can get us to the show, and maybe there we will pick up a sponsor for the wheels and tires. But unless we have an undercarriage we do not have a car for the show. On the other hand, nice wheels will attract a lot more attention to the project. But before we can buy wheels we have to know what our choice is for tires. Before we know that we have to decide about the flares.

Sorry guys, I seem to have a little cabin fever this morning. It's been building. Once we get past the middle of March I'll be fine, please just bear with me until then.

Jim

[MGBV8]

Okay, Jim, take a deeeep breath & calm down.

Maybe making this year's show is a tall order that is gonna stress you too much. You have work to do on your own car, as well. Are you talking, on 4 wheels trailering it to the V8 Meet to show the progress? Or, actually having it in driving condition?

Have read this thread:

http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?11,1713

It may reinforce with what has been discussed about rearend width.  Unless, we do flares, the add 2". I'll call the local junkyards about Omni/Horizons.

The 22mm offset might be difficult in the Chevy bolt pattern, though

Tires? 225/50-15s minimum in the rear. Same or 205/55-15s in the front. A used or worn out set might be helpful for steup

[BlownMGB-V8]

I'll be OK Carl, just give me a week or so for the snow to clear.

That would be the width Ted uses. 51" hub to hub, 51-1/2" with rotors. Same as a stock axle, drum to drum. Can I subtract 1-1/2" from that? (3/4" per side by flattening bump stop humps?) Gives 50" exactly.

Is this correct for the 22mm offset?

What is the most common offset for GM wheels?

I'm more familiar with backspacing. I run 3-1/2" backspacing on my car and I see that on ebay fairly often. I find it easier to work with because clearance to the inside does not change regardless of wheel width. Anyone know what the offset on an 8" wheel with 3-1/2" backspacing would be?

We're getting closer. Answers to those questions should be about all we need right now.

I'll have more info for the Roadmaster thread soon. The goal is to trailer a roller to the meet. Anything above that is great, but it needs to be on it's own wheels and capable of being unloaded from the trailer.

Jim

[MGBV8]

Jim,

I always worked with backspacing in the past. My Camaro has 15X10s with 6" of back spacing. That is how I get the wider Chevelle rearend to work.  Apparently, offset is the standard, now.

Offset is just the difference between the wheel's mounting surface & half of the wheel's width. So, your wheel has a 1/2" or 12.7mm of negative offset. Negative offset gives the "deep dish" look. Positive offset moves the wheel more inward.

"Can I subtract 1-1/2" from that? (3/4" per side by flattening bump stop humps?) Gives 50" exactly. Is this correct for the 22mm offset?"

No. The 22mm offset is for a stock width MG rearend. Don't cut anything, yet. We need to look at the available offsets. I was thinking we would want a stock width rearend or possibly a bit wider if using flares. Still depends on the wheels & flares or not.

Are there any GM factory wheels that you like. I always liked the Firebird Trans-Am wheels that look similar to mine. They come in 14, 15, & 16' with different backspacing for front & rear.

Check these out (good backspacing info):

http://www.tacreationsusa.com/firebird_wheels.htm

[Bill Young]

Jim, if you have access to an old trailer axle why not just cut it to fit and mount on the original leaf springs to make a roller for the show. Having the IRS would be nice, but not necessary for people to get the overall idea for the car. That way you can concentrate on the tires and some wheels that will get it rolling without having to have the final pieces in hand.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I'll wait to cut the shafts. I also will make some calls to see if we can get tires donated. If we use Omni flares what's the biggest tire we can use? Can we put the same tire on the front?

My preference on the wheels is first to spend as little on them as possible (possibly ebay), second to get the lightest and strongest wheels possible (Weld and Centerline come to mind) and then go for looks.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/WELD-ALUMASTAR-WHEELS-15x10-4-1-2-6-B-S-ALUMA-STAR_W0QQitemZ150220360143QQihZ005QQcategoryZ43955QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

These are the wrong pattern but is an example of what I would look for. Carl, I understand your wheels are also very light, don't know what others are.

Jim

[MGBV8]

Well, being that these are factory wheels, I doubt they are real light. Certainly not anywhere near Weld wheels.



I wouldn't think that you want to go any bigger than 225/50-15 on the front. Then again, l see what you are running.  

Joe Schafer has 245/50-15s out back. Not sure they are really under the flare, though. In any case, I think that is about big enough. Bigger tires are heavier & usually more costly.

I haven't weighed just my wheels (wish I had), but the current combo is 31 lbs. (on a digital scale that rounds to the nearest tenth) with considerable tread missing from the barely legal tires. That is pretty close to the low end of the scale. Toyo says that my tires weigh 21lbs. at full tread.

You can go for lightweight wheels & then wind up with a lot of heavy rubber mounted to them.

[rficalora]

MGBV8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Schafer has 245/50-15s out back. Not sure they
> are really under the flare, though. In any case, I
> think that is about big enough. Bigger tires are
> heavier & usually more costly.

He does, and they're close, but don't quite fit.  We traded mails a few months back; I know the rear wheels are 15x8.  I'll have to dig up my notes to get the backspace & rear axle width.

Note, the 245/50/15's are down to one supplier for a street tire -- Dunlop SP Sport 8000.  Z rated, high performance summer tire.  About $170ea @ tirerack.com.  I wanted them, but couldn't justify the cost + was worried that in another few years they may be NLA.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I went out and measured the Centerlines I'm running, turns out my memory is less than perfect, what a surprise. They are 7" wide (the BFG 265/50-14's are 10" wide) with a nominal 3" backspacing that is closer to 2-7/8". With the stock axle they could probably be moved in some but I'd have to take a closer look. That would seem to suggest that a 3-1/2" backspaced wheel would fit and maybe as much as 4-1/2" depending on the tire and overall rim width, I'll know more after a closer look. However, that's with an additional 1-1/2" of tire bulge (per side). Taking that into account it would seem that we would have something close to 5"+ clearance from the hub to the inside. Can't use my car to determine clearance to the outside of course, but to the inside I can get. Hopefully I can take a closer look tomorrow.

Jim

[MGBV8]

Jim,

It's obvious form this pic that your tires are srceeming for more rim:



You are losing a lot of potential footprint by using less than optimal rim width. I'd bet that those tires were supposed to be mounted on a 8-10" wide rim with 8.5-9" being the optimal width.

[MGBV8]

"They are 7" wide (the BFG 265/50-14's are 10" wide)"

So with your 90% rule, you should be using 9" wide rims.

Good tire/wheel info:

http://www.yokohamatire.com/utcustom.asp

[BlownMGB-V8]

Another Blackwoodian response here.

What you say appears to be true Carl. However the spec sheet for the tires (BFG publication no. 0-3069-GT) lists the following data: BFG Recommended Rim Width Range 8.0-10.5, Tire and Rim Association design rim width 7.0 (Dimensions are taken with the tire mounted on this rim). Tread wear when mounted on this rim is flat and even, suggesting full tread contact.

This illustrates a somewhat different philosophy on tire and rim selection, and a very valid one for street driven cars. Rubber is harder to damage than aluminum and a street driven car will encounter many obstacles. In particular we do not see curbs on the race track, but they are a constant when parallel parking. Considering that wheels are usually more expensive than tires and more easily damaged by hard objects it is not at all unreasonable to use the tire sidewall as a protective buffer and this was an established standard manufacturer's practice up until the advent of the rubber band tire.

I had the tires (and the spec sheet) prior to buying these wheels, but the first set were also mounted on 7" wheels, and happy with the results I stayed with that width. I have never damaged a rim with this configuration. (Unless you count drifting sideways into a curb and breaking the center out of a Cragar SS. But the tire didn't survive that either. )

Much has been made of late about sidewall flex in terms of handling response and overall grip and I do not doubt the validity of those arguments. On the track this is very persuasive, and I could probably pick up a few tenths with maximum width rims. But my car is rarely track driven, and on the street it is already so fast that if I'm losing traction around a blind turn there'd better not be anything in the road because there's not enough reaction time left to avoid it. To me this is a valid limiting factor and a very big sign that it's time to slow down. I don't think I need to be going any faster than that, so in short I've built the car up to the level of my own limitations and not beyond. I'm happy with it as it is. The car helps me stay out of a potentially deadly situation.

Of course, an 8" rim would have a more common backspacing of 3-1/2" (locating the tire in the same place) while a 10" rim would be 4-1/2" but the 8 would contribute nothing otherwise and the 10 is still 1/2" below the max and would not therefore put the apex side sidewall in tension early enough to help handling much. The spec on treadwidth is 8.35" (although it's closer to 9-1/2 on the well worn tires shown below) and section width is 10.37" (full depth tread mounted on the 7" rim). So a 10-1/2" rim could arguably put the lip of the rim outboard of the sidewall. Not the combo I want to be driving on the street.

Here's a photo of this wheel in the GT wheelwell:








On my car there is 1-5/8" of clearance on the inside (+1/4" passenger side). Add that up and it's 3-1/2" total. Allowing 1/2" for the shock bolts we still have 3" to play with on a stock width axle, meaning that the same wheel and tire with a 4-1/2" offset would certainly rub due to sidewall flex, while an 8" wheel might not. That with a slightly narrower tire certainly would not, but it appears from the photos that the Omni flares might cover this tire. (which is NLA)

So there are some more dimensions to play with. Hopefully someone can get us from there to an idea of what we should be looking for in wheels.

The diameter can be increased on the rear as well, up to 27" and I'd suggest we think about doing this as it should make the tire selection easier and give more traction. It does mean the tire has to go deeper into the wheelwell though to maintain the ride height, which could adversely affect our suspension travel.

Any tire choice selections?

Jim

[MGBV8]

Looks perfect!

"It does mean the tire has to go deeper into the wheelwell though to maintain the ride height, which could adversely affect our suspension travel."

That Omni flare is not going to allow a lot of suspension travel.

"The diameter can be increased on the rear as well, up to 27"

There you go adding unsprung weight.

If you want the Prostars, we gotta stay with a 15" rim. A 225/60 would be taller, but a bit narrower. There are a lot of choices in the pricier 17". Feeding tires to that 455 is gonna get expensive.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I'd rather stay as far away from expensive tires as we can, at least for now. But out of curiosity, is there a 17" tire with a section width of 10 or 11" and a diameter between 24 and 27"?

We may be stuck with more unsprung weight than we'd like. Seems lightness is expensive.

Jim

[MGBV8]

275/40-17
285/40-17
315/40-17

Won't be cheap & won't be light. The tire by itself will weigh within a pound or two as my wheel/tire combo. Ouch!

[Phillip G]

Martin Harvey,

Good evening,

I see your Ford 9 inch axle in the britishv8 web site.

I am building an SCCA GT 2 class RV8 for club racing and will ultimately want to move to a Ford 9 inch rear axle.

Is your Ford 9 inch up for sale and how much would you need for it ?  Of particular value is the 3.25 limited slip differential .

We will be club racing with a RV8 3.5 and will need a better final drive than our present MGB banjo housing "locked" 3.90 final drive.

regards,

Phillip leonard
Kansas City
pleonard@kcnet.com

[Mr. T]

Hey Guys,

Food for thought - Don Allen's wheels (same size tires that Carl mentioned) may compliment your project.

Chevrolet rally wheels: 15x7 with 4.25" backspacing and 205/55 tires in front, and 15x8 with 4.00" backspacing and 225/50 tires in the rear.