GB replica minilite wheels?

[Mr. T]

Hey guys - anyone heard of these wheels:

Front cap - GB; front face - 14X6j and .03 (Does this denote offset of 30mm?); back face - Made in Italy.  These are currently on my MGB (and a spare!) that I purchased last April and are wrapped with some lousy Dunlop SP/40 185/70.

I'm either going to replace these with 205/60/14 (Sumitomo HTR 200 = $46!) summer rubber (but how long are they going to make 14" tires) or move up to a 15x7 or 16x7 wheel.  Rotas' very nice RB series (similar to panasport) comes in 15x7 +12/20/25/30 - 17 lbs ($125) and 16x7 +35 (only ten bucks more $135!).  Widest section of 185/70 is approx. 1"+ from driver-side bumper stop flange (gm 10-bolt) and 3/4"+ from passenger sides' (this is why I want to find out what my existing offset is, as it will be critical if I move up - yea I know I can ATTEMPT to measure it, but it's really freakin cold in my garage right now!).

Comments/Recommendations?

Thanks, Tony

[Moderator]

Made in Italy? Do they look like this:

(These are the MWS wheels on Martyn Harvey's car. I thought they were made in England, but I'm not sure.)

You heard it here first:

14" tires will come back into fashion when automakers and their customers  wake up and start caring more about fuel efficiency.   -Curtis Jacobson

Incidentally, crude oil closed above $100 a barrel for the first time today.

---

30mm offset would be a lot, but it isn't impossible. Standard MGB is 22mm. Real Minilite 15x6 wheels are available with either 22mm or 28mm offset. 15x6 Panasports suitable for MGB come 22mm only. (That dimension, by the way, is the measurement from the vertical centerline of the wheel to the plane of the hub interface surface.)

As I think you know, I recently bought 15x6 Panasports and some 205/50 Falken Azenis tires. I should have measured more carefully before buying, as they're not working out too well with the rear axle that I narrowed ten or twelve years ago. I didn't narrow it enough! It worked with my old wheels and tires. I've now used a side grinder on the fender flanges (i.e. trimming the flanges back to the spot welds) and I'm making some other tweaks to get more clearance, but it's real close.  (Anyone want a sweetheart deal on some brand new wheels? Not one mile on them! They're pretty, and they only weigh 15.0#.)

[harv8]

I have a set of 14x6 GB rims.  They were made in the UK.  I ran them on my BV8 for 9 years on Yokohama A509s-195/65x14
They are on my BGT for now as shown below.

[harv8]

Oooops....I believe these rims were made in Italy

[MGBV8]

At least, it's not China!

[Moderator]

Buyer Beware:

If you care where things are made (and IMHO you should...), my sources tell me that Minotaur wheels are now being made in mainland China. The newest ones no longer have "Made in England" cast into them, but I'm told the new version doesn't actually say where they're made anywhere on the wheel.

Also, the new Moss catalog (Spring/Summer 2008) that arrived yesterday has an error in its description of the Panasport wheels. The catalog reads "Panasport wheels feature lightweight alloy construction, polished rim and steel tapered-face lug inserts." Well, actually Panasport apparently stopped producing these wheels with steel lug inserts last summer, but the catalogs and mailings still haven't been updated yet! (I didn't discover this until after my tires were mounted; they're beautiful castings, but they're not what I expected.) These wheels are, however, clearly labeled "Made in Japan".

Genuine Minilite brand wheels are still made in England. Superlite wheels are made in Australia.

[Mr. T]

Martyn:  I must have the same wheels. Does yours have GB 0.03 on outside hub? Any idea what your offset is?
              MGB rear? Any clearence issues with 196/65? If I keep my wheels, I would like to use 205/60 and roll
              fender and grind lip if necessary. Also, will be installing torsion bar. Met you and Graham at BV82007.
              Like your setup, nice consistent FLAT runs (and Carl) through autocross!
               

Carl:  Don't get me started - I don't mine paying a few extra bucks for good products -  Made in USA!
          AND I'm getting SICK and TIRED of pushing #1 if I want ENGLISH when calling the local electric co., cable  
          co. and Home Depot, etc!!  Let SOMEONE else push the FREAKIN #1 button, or better yet,
          LEARN ENGLISH!!!....okay...okay..Tony..take a deep breath and count to ten....hah that's better.


Martyn/Carl:  Looking forward to additional updates on your 3.9 builds!

[Mr. T]

The above post is why you should use the PREVIEW button!

[RMO 699F]

Martyn, what is the red car next to your gt? Looks like an mgb gt with a different rear attached....

[Moderator]

The nifty red "Brooklands" GT is described here:  http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Canadian-Corner-XIV-3.htm

[harv8]

Tony,
I'm not sure what the offset of the GB rim really is but the rims fit easily with  195/65x14 tires.  I was going to fit 205/60x14 tires but never did.  I fully expect they would work fine especially if you roll the fender lip and install a panhard bar.  I believe Carl runs or ran 205/60x14 tires on his car.  IMHO the GB rims look awesome and I wish they were still available.... in 15" or 16".  I have just purchased a new set of Superlites 15"x6" for the GTV8 project. My GB rims are stamped like yours with the number 003 on the face.  I have attached another pic of my GB rim with the Yoko tire and a pic of the 15" Superlite.
Cheers,
Martyn

[rficalora]

Tony, if you have the wheels, offset is easy to calculate.  14x6 would be 6" wide (inside of the lips from tire bead mounting surface to tire bead mounting surface).  The lips are typically 1/2" wide on each side so total wheel width would be 7".

With that you can determine backspace.  Lay a straight edge across the back of the wheel & measure down from it to the machined hub mounting surface.  That's your backspace.  The difference between the backspace measurement & the centerline of the wheel (7" divided in half = 3.5" in your case) is the offset.  Offset is positive if your backspace is greater than 3.5" (e.g. hub mounting surface is closer to the front of the wheel than the middle); it's negative if your backspace is less than 3.5".

To convert your offset in inches to MM you multiply the offset by 25.4 (because there's 25.4 MM to an inch).

But, if you have the wheels, you probably don't need to do all that.  Just look up the specs on the tires you're considering & you should be able to find the tread width, section width, sidewall height, etc.  Mount a wheel on your car & use a cardboard template using the tire dimensions to see if/where you'll have clearance problems.

[MGBV8]

My Toyos are 205/55-14 (a bit shorter than I wanted) with panhard rod & fender lip turned up. I'm still dreaming about 225/50s on15X7s. Maybe someday.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Carl, what's the width of those tires in inches? I need the measurement at the widest part. I could use your help in setting the track width. How much can we move the wheel inwards and what is the biggest tire we can run? Ted tells me he sets his track width to 51" but then adds the width of two brake rotors. Can we move the hub in 1/2" per side? I'm pretty confused about this. How big can we go if we use all of the space, and what does the track need to be to do that? Any suggestions you could make would sure help. I really want to get this right if I can.

Jim

[harv8]

Jim,

I have a Ford 9" posi axle (front loading 3.25 gears) that I built with stock MGB rear drum brakes.  I used this axle on my BV8 until I swapped it out for an 8.8".  The axle seemed overkill for my car.  Anyway, I built it slightly narrower than stock width.  I think its about 1/2' shorter each side.  I could have run bigger tires on this axle, but never did.  Now the axle sits in the corner of my garage awaiting a good home.

Martyn

[Mr. T]

Rob:  Yeh, I've spent a lot of time at tire rack and other wheel/tire sites - gotten pretty quick calculating sec. width, dia., rpm.  Yesterday afternoon, I cut a cardboard 8" wide (approx. 205 section width - approx. 7" tread width), marked center and centered on tire (old 185/70/14 = 24.2" dia. & new 205/60/14 = 23.8" dia. - close enough); it'll probably be okay at rb height, but will probably require roll-out at the least when I eventually lower car (after gathering intell at BV8-2008).  Thanks for info regarding offset - I'm going to mount the spare 14x6 (no tire on it) to double-check offset - critical when "upgrading" tire or wheel size.

Martyn:  Those superlites are schweet! and the price is reasonable.  The 28mm offset might have been just the ticket for Curtis. The racing version certainly are light - 12.6 lbs!


I've decided to stick with the 14x6 wheels (especially since I have five and just purchased car last April), I will upgrade when I wear out the five (at $46 I can afford to buy one for the spare wheel!) Sumitomo  HTR 200 High Performance summer tires (tire rack rep said this specific brand/size popular for combo street/race) that I purchased yesterday.

FYI: EuroFormula Ford Challenge Series Tires

     The tires being used on our Formula Fords, in the EuroFormula Ford Challenge, came through a number of discussions between Jim Doughty and Steve Tremonti of Carroll Shelby Enterprises with series creator Jens Ploughman.

     Jens had an idea for a series that could run on a cost effective D.O.T. tire that would fit existing wheels and maintain the current geometry of a formula ford race car.

     The first goal of Carroll Shelby Ent., the western states Goodyear racing distributor, was to utilize a current tire from the Goodyear  D.O.T. product line.  This however was not possible to match both the front and rear tire sizes.  One of our limiting factors was the car's 13inch-rim size.

     From here we started to look within the Goodyear family of brands starting with Dunlop.  We could find a rear tire that met our requirements, but still no front.  We were going to have to look deeper into the Goodyear family tree.

     In the late 1990's Goodyear acquired the Dunlop brand which brought the street tire manufacturer Sumitomo label with it.

     Sumitomo offers a number of tires in the 13inch range.  Since the tire was being used in Formula Ford competition, we needed a high performance designed tire.  We chose the Sumitomo HTR 200 High Performance Summer Radial.

     Within the HTR 200 Tire line Carroll Shelby Ent. chose the 175/50/HR13 for the front and the 205/60/HR13 for the rear because of their size relationship to the current Goodyear racing slicks.  Both sizes fit nicely on the spec 5.5inch rim and the overall diameter of the tires are nearly a perfect match.  The new Sumitomo front diameter measured 20" compared to 20.3" for the Goodyear D2273 Race Slick and in the rear it was 22.8" compared to 22.4" for the Goodyear D1671 rear Racing slick.

     This match allows a Formula Ford Driver to bolt on a new set of Sumitomo tires for less than $300.00 and get multiple race weekends on them, opposed to a new set of Goodyear race slicks for almost $700.00 a weekend.

     The Sumitomo's have already proven themselves to be a fun, durable and driver friendly tire, that tolerates abuse, and hold there own while in a competitive environment.

     Expect to see close Formula Ford racing within the EuroFormula Ford Challenge series!

  For the EuroFormula Ford Class, we're using the following Sumitomo Tires.

Front
HTR200 175/50R13 72H

Rear
HTR200 205/60R13 87H

     The Sumitomo HTR 200 High Performance Summer radial was developed to meet the needs of today's sports car, coupe and sedan drivers by blending dry and wet road performance with enhanced comfort and wear resistance.

     The Sumitomo HTR 200 features a silica and natural rubber enhanced tread compound molded into a symmetric tread design with stable independent shoulder and intermediate tread blocks to provide dry road handling and enhance wear resistance. The HTR 200 radial's wide circumferential and curved grooves team up to enhance wet traction and reduce the risk of hydroplaning.

     Internally, the HTR 200's twin steel belts are reinforced by JointLess Band (JLB) technology which uses spirally wound nylon belt edge strips to provide long term integrity under high speed conditions while it reduces weight and helps provide more uniform ride quality.

     The Sumitomo HTR 200 tire's styling features subtle black letters (with the exception of a narrow white stripe on the P225/70R15 size). Sumitomo HTR 200 tires are available in 70-, 65-, 60- and 50-series; H-speed rated sizes for 13" to 15" wheel diameters.

[MGBV8]

"Carl, what's the width of those tires in inches?"

Mine or the 225s?  I'll crawl under my car tomorrow & do some measuring. My car is pretty well maxed out on the outboard side. There is still a bit of room to the inside.

Technically, track width center to center of the footprint. There are a lot of things to consider before choosing the rearend width.  Have we ruled out flares? Wider is better & would certainly help the higher center of gravity of the GT. We need to look at the offsets available for the wheels. Wider tires up front will help with the understeer tendencies due to the heavier engine. What about that bumpstop hump in the rear inner fenderwell? Removing it from my car would easily allow an extra inch of wheel/tire to the inside. 225/50-15s have been done on, at least, 2 cars, already.

Using Tony's Sumitomo HTR 200 example, the 225/50-15 mounted on a 7" wide wheel has a section width of 8.9" This will vary a bit from brand to brand.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Sumitomo&model=HTR+200

I know conventional wisdom is to make the rearend a bit narrow & adjust with spacers, but I'm not real comfortable with wheel spacers.

[BlownMGB-V8]

We removed the bump stops, so slicing off the mount protrusion wouldn't be that much of a job. Flares? Well if someone wants to donate a set of Omni flares I'd be OK with it. (Shouldn't be a big deal once the mig welder is here.) They're about the only thing commonly available that I think look good enough to be on the car and I'm not sure we're ready for something like mine. At the very least we should probably roll the fender lips. Having the car on the rotisserie I could do that with hammer and dolly.

Am I being too eager to cut the axles? Could be I guess. That's why I asked for help. I don't know what's available in wheel size, offset, or tire size. Are we limited by what will fit the front? You know a lot more about what's possible there than I do, but if you could recommend a width, flange to flange, I can sure make it happen.

Martyn, I do appreciate the idea of putting that axle under the car as it would shorten our build time considerably, but this raises all kinds of questions. It could be worth pursuing though, there is a way to make this work. If you are considering donating it to the Roadmaster project let me know, let me work my way through it and figure out what would have to be done not just in terms of hardware but also in clearing it with our members. If you're serious about it I will present the option on the Roadmaster thread and see what responses we get. (I just know this one is gonna cost me. Not necessarily a bad thing though.)

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Maybe the fact that we're also wanting to get the biggest tires possible under the car will mitigate that some.

Jim

[Mr. T]

Go ahead and hijack - the rest of us will come along for the ride!

Got to love those flares - 245's would certainly help get that BBB power to the pavement !

[MGBV8]

I was thinking we should also consider the Huffaker flares that Tim Nagy is reproducing.

Check them out on Bill Guzman's GT:



Curtis, this car NEEDS to be in the the Photo Gallery.

I vote for 225/50-15s all the way around or possibly 205/55-15s up front. Offset to be determined by whether we want a wider track & flares.

Graham Creswick is running Panasport 15x7 with 22mm offset & 225/50ZR-15 Dunlop SP Sport 8000 tires with a Ford 8.8 narrowed to stock MGB width & no flares. So, they will fit.

[Moderator]

Here's another good place to see Huffaker flares: http://www.britishv8.org/MG/PeterSmith.htm

Curtis, this car NEEDS to be in the the Photo Gallery.

I totally agree. I've asked Bill for the photos and write-up. They've been promised, but they haven't arrived yet.

If installing fiberglass flares means cutting away steel in the quarterpanels, then I'd recommend thinking twice about them in conjunction with the big block engine. Chassis strength and torsional rigidity are important. You want to get all that big block torque to the ground!

Graham Creswick is running Panasport 15x7 with 22mm offset & 225/50ZR-15 Dunlop SP Sport 8000 tires with a Ford 8.8 narrowed to stock MGB width & no flares. So, they will fit.

Yeah, but Graham makes things look easier than they really are. I know Graham put his front antisway bar in a press and put a curve in it (to narrow it) so it wouldn't contact the tires.  Maybe Graham will step into this conversation and let us know what trickery is going on here. Have the rear wheel arch lips been removed entirely? It seems he's not even using  Panhard bar!

[MGBV8]

"Yeah, but Graham makes things look easier than they really are. I know Graham put his front antisway bar in a press and put a curve in it (to narrow it) so it wouldn't contact the tires."

We can work around that. Ted Lathrop mentioned building a front bar for the Roadmaster.  

[MGBV8]

"If installing fiberglass flares means cutting away steel in the quarterpanels, then I'd recommend thinking twice about them in conjunction with the big block engine."

There ought to be a way to weld the inner & outer fender back together so as not to cause any weakness. It may be very labor intensive to rework the inner fenderwell. Though it seems that would be necessary even with steel flares.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Do you guys honestly like the Huffaker flares? I can't say I do, and that's the reason mine are the way they are. Joe showed them to me when I was out there in 1980 and I did buy a set of the front ones thinking I might be able to rework them for the rear but it just didn't work out and I sold them and made up some formed steel ones instead. If we're going that far with it I think I'd rather create another set of steel ones. But then we're back to the tire problem I've got, no 24" diameter tires with 12" of tread. How much bigger in diameter we might go could be limited by header clearance on the front. I can try to look at that, just not today.

I can't say exactly why I don't care for those flares. Sort of a visual thing because of that small vertical section. For some reason it reminds me of those early dually pickup trucks with the stuck on fenders and I never did like the looks of those. Some people do, just not me. Those give you 3". That's a lot. If you put that wide of a tire on the front the steering force is going to increase noticeably, particularly for parallel parking and with more weight on the front it'll be worse. If we put smaller tires on the front then we'll be fighting understeer and we can do that too of course if we have to. But since no amount of rubber is going to prevent wheelspin, do we really want to go overboard in getting maximum rear traction anyway?

I'm not sure we need to decide this right now. As long as we maximize the usable space to the inside I can determine the half shaft length based on whatever optimum axle width you guys give me. But I agree with Carl on the shims. I do not want to have to space the wheel back out because we made a mistake.

Jim

[ex-tyke]

QUOTE:    "Maybe Graham will step into this conversation and let us know what trickery is going on here"
    Without getting into a lengthy Blackwoodian response, let's say that I DO have rear tire scrubbing.
When the 8.8 was narrowed to 51", one thing I did was to weld the spring brackets 3/16" off centre to the left which in effect situated the axle biased to the right 3/16" - in effect trying to compensate for the well-documented MGB axle phenomena of the axle mounting biased to the left. This did help centre the wheel/tire in the wheelwell but found that I could have gone an additional 1/16" for a better fit - 3/16" still left me with an external tire rub on the left and an internal tire scrub on the right. This internal tire rub was eliminated by messaging the bump stop metal with a hammer. Both wheel well lips have been essentially ground off to the spot welds.
    If, as Carl mentions, both bump stops are eliminated entirely and the axle width shortened even further (to perhaps 50-1/4"), I believe that 15" rims w/22mm offset & 225/50 tires can be made to work. I see no reason why an adjustable axle mockup (w/square tubing/ & flanges/studs)  couldn't be fabricated and installed with the correct rims/tire combination to arrive at an optimized axle width.
     As far as the front sway bar, there's no smoke and mirrors there!  Bending a sway bar after it has been heat treated must be done slowly and deliberately or else you are left with a 2 piece arrangement. True, my tires don't contact the bar, but the exhaust headers are a different story - we'll fix that next Winter!