MGB Roadmaster

[BlownMGB-V8]

I'm still sort of in denial. It's hard to come to terms with it, especially with as much time as we had spent on the phone. I only wish I had known. It'd be the height of presumption to think I could have changed anything but I wish I could have tried. Life is a struggle for most of us and we can be thankful there is enough support to keep us going. I feel like in some way we let him down. The only thing we can do now is to listen more closely for the quiet cries for help that so often go unnoticed. I'm glad to be able to say he was my friend. I wish I could say I had listened more closely. Not so much that he ever let on, but I'm sure there was more I could have done to encourage him.

Jim

[MGBV8]

I hear ya, Bro.

Mike was such an upbeat, fun guy to hang with, I didn't even see this coming. We are all going to miss him. I really am depressed for Nico, Mike's son that Dan brought to several V8 Meets. He & my son were born 10 days apart. I won one of the V8 Meet autox with Nico riding shotgun. My son, Mitch, has never ridden with me (or watched me)  do any driving events.

I had a double whammy yesterday.  First, I was waylaid by the sad news about Mike. Then I had another good friend undergo surgery to remove a tumor in his lung. He died shortly after going back to ICU yesterday evening. I'm still about 90 proof.  Life just sucks, sometimes.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Well, don't start questioning your own purpose in life, that leads to no good. I find that living in the present and hoping for the future works best for me. There's always some sort of hope there if you look hard enough for it. Sometimes it might just be hoping to make it through the next minute, but still it's there.

So on that note and no disrespect intended, back to the matter at hand. Nothing got done this weekend. I'm sure you all understand and sympathize. Still, that's not getting us to Port Washington. Steve, are we still on for next week? I'll do my best to get things moving on the IRS.

Jim

[Citron]

Jim,
I will leave here on Thursday, june 12 and should get there late afternoon.
Maybe we can get some work done that evening.
Friday and Sat.  should let us get it on the wheels?

Is the spare room or the basement available?

Sorry to here about Mike.  I didn't know him but Dan and family are in my prayers.

Steve

[BlownMGB-V8]

I'm afraid it'll be the spare room Steve, I'm finding it hard to get everything done, and feeling little satisfaction in what I am getting done. However, I am still making progress on all fronts, just slower than I'd like.

Get it on it's wheels. Yes, that would be the goal. We will need to get a couple of 2nd hand tires for the front, should be available close by for about 10-15 bucks each. I've got some more work done on the crossmember, should have that done by then, and if I haven't gotten the LCA's and axles done you can finish up the engine while I finish the job and then we'll bolt 'er up and take it down off the rack before moving on to the engine/tranny and tin. Or however much we can do.

The basement's a mess. Drywall dust everywhere and still more of that to do. It'll be nice when it's done though, maybe next time. At least I did get the belting up around the shop building so if it rains we shouldn't have water in the floor any more. That should help some.

Jim

[Citron]

Jim,
Spare room is great.
I will leave here on the morning of June12.
I will bringing with me, besides my dynamic personality and boyish good looks, two Jag rims with tires and center caps for the rims, lug nuts for the rims, inner and outer sills (new), the turn signal switch (borrowed last time), and southern BBQ. ( should provide at least one meal while there.  The BBQ will be mustard based for one batch and one vinegar based.  about 3 lbs of each.
I will be bringing back home the 2.78 gear for the Ford 8 in.
If any of this does not suit you let me know.

Steve

[Bill Young]

Steve, keep talking about that good sounding BBQ and I'm liable to drive over! ;-) Hope you guys get a lot done and don't have to work too hard. Wish I could be there to help.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Steve, that all sounds good. Especially the BBQ! I've got the Xmember done except for the shock mounts, (Don't know where to locate them until we get the coil-over units we'll be using but we'll need a temporary strut of some kind for the meet) front hanger brackets, and paint.





Should be able to finish up the brackets tomorrow evening and perhaps paint also. Then I think I should mount the differential and measure one last time before cutting the axles and LCA's.

I was going to try to do the axles and LCA's for both cars at the same time but it turns out that my hydraulic press isn't able to press out one of the hub splines. So instead of holding up the Roadmaster while I retrofit the press I'll just plan to do that later and concentrate on getting one axle setup finished. The axle half-shafts will have to be turned down to 1" to fit in the 1/4" wall tubing. One builder, using 1-3/4 OD tubing presses the ends into the tube and then welds it. This concentrates the torque stress between the ends of the old half shaft. Instead of doing that what I will do is machine for a snug slip fit, which will give good alignment but allow the torque stress to be evenly distributed along the entire length of the tube, and also leave a minimum gap between the ends which will give full internal support and resistance to wall wrinkling under torsion loading. I think this will give us a more reliable part with the size tubing we are using.

Jim

[Citron]

All,
The sills I am bring up were donated by Tom Caine here in wonderful Lugoff, SC.  We really need them and will be a big help with the Roadmaster.

Steve

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thank you very much Tom! That will certainly make the bodywork easier.

The crossmember is now completed. However in the photos you may notice the conspicuous absence of a shock mount for the coil-over units. This is because we do not yet have them of course, and the reason for that is because I'm pretty sure we don't have enough cash in the account to buy them. I'll double check with Steve next week in any case but we also need to decide what we want to use. I think possibly the QA1's from Summit might work, seems the pricing on those was pretty good. Anyway, we can just cut a chunk of 2x4 or something to stick in there and hold up the car so we can get it to the meet.


Here's a close-up of the pinion angle adjustment slot and cushion mount. I went ahead and cut these to allow the full range of pinion angle adjustment, from the stock Jaguar 6 degrees down to zero. We expect to be right in the middle of that range and that will give us adequate clearance from the bodywork. Once the assembly is bolted into the car and the pinion angle is set, these bolts are locked down and the front of the bracket is drilled using the other shock mount bolt hole as a guide.


This shot shows the teeth of the hardened washers which will bite in and securely lock the slot adjustment.


Last but not least, here is the completed mount sitting atop the Jag diff, (almost) ready to be jacked up into place under the car.


Next task is to take final measurements and cut and narrow the axles and LCA's. Steve, I think there's an excellent chance I'll have that done by the time you get here next week.

Jim

[MGBV8]

Looking good, Jim!

It's really coming together. Wish I could afford talent like that!

[74ls1tr6]

Jim,

That cross member you made is very custom top notch work I must say.

Well thought out with the pinion adjustment way cool.

I can't wait to see some more of your work on this project.

This makes me want to go out and purchase a big Smithy    http://www.smithy.com/products.php?cid=1

Calvin

[BlownMGB-V8]

"Under the spreading chestnut tree the village Jonesy stands..." Anyone know the next line? (Moose and squirrel)

There's a lot you can do with that modeling equipment. Patience and a good imagination can take you a long way.

There is one place where the design is a little weak, that being the adjustment slot of course. However, once the adjustment is set the tooth washer can be welded to the bracket thereby permanently locking the angle. We'll probably do that on the Roadmaster due to the torque it'll be handling.

I haven't had the chance yet to look at coil-over units, maybe this evening.

Jim

[Dan B]

Rocky says something like "Jonesy?  Shouldn't it  be Smithy?"  And Bullwinkle explains some moose logic....

[BlownMGB-V8]

Ah yes, indeed it was! So what was the next line in the rhyme? I just can't quite grasp it.

Nothing new to report today except that I did look into coil over shocks and springs. We're looking at something in the neighborhood of $500 by the time you figure in the cost of the shocks and the springs. I know it'd be nice to be able to tune the suspension but for this we either need a sponsor or a large donation. In any case that would have to happen immediately for us to be able to get them on the car for the meet. Anybody need a moderately large tax deduction?

I've been kept pretty busy with fixing the pool and other things after the big storm so haven't gotten back to the Roadmaster yet and today I'm in the office for awhile. To be honest I'm working up my nerve to cut the axles. Got to be right on when I do that, really no room for errors. I think what I'll do is to bolt up the axle assemblies off the one for my roadster, put on the wheels and tires and take measurements and use those to cut the axles and LCA's. It's probably the most intimidating part of the conversion, even though the task itself isn't really that hard to do. If it's done right, the rest of the work in that area will be a good bit easier but if not, then all sorts of troubles can creep in. One thing that concerns me is the camber change that would result from cutting equal segments from the axle and LCA. The two do not run exactly parallel, and to preserve the exact geometry that now exists would require a slight difference in the length of the cutout. How slight I do not yet know, but I soon will. It could be inconsequential, it could be easily adjusted with the rotor end shims. I doubt it will be that much, but I can't disregard it until I know. So that's what's on the agenda for this evening, provided the pool plumbing goes smoothly. Wish me luck! On the bright side of things, I was able to ride the bike to work today so maybe I'm catching up a little.

Jim

[castlesid]

Hi Jim,

Good to se you making such impressive progress, I been looking in on a regular basis and am in awe of your engineering abilities.

Re; the coil spring damper units, don't know if the figure mentioned was for 2 or 4 units but 2 should be fine and possibly Bill Guzman could  advise what spring and damper rates he is using on his four link rear end which should be pretty close apart from more unsprung weight.

My new 4.35 engine is now built and apart from some fine tuning on the the valve gear geometry, is ready to go into the car which should happen fairly soon.

Good luck on your continuing progress with the Roadmaster.

Kevin Jackson.

[Willy's V8B]

I've been following this for a while as I'm in the process of putting a narrowed Jag rear in my B. I had the axles, lca and the cage narrowed. I recently bought a rusty rear B clip so I could fit everything together with the clip turned upside down as your doing. As your about to shorten the axles I have to pass on this little bit of information. I used tubing that had a 1.125 ID. The wall is about 1/4 in. During the welding process of having the ends welded on, the turned down yokes turned in the tubing. This caused the yolkes to be out of phase. I had some shafts made before the welding, that slipped through the yokes and set the whole thing on a thick piece of steel channel. You could see the yoke start to rotate as it was being welded, even if it was tacked in different spots. A solution was to drill a hole through the tubing into the yoke stub and then plug weld the hole. The axles were then secured using the made up shafts through the yokes. This should minimize the shifting. This may not happen to you. This is just to make you aware of a problem that may arise. I discovered that when I put these shafts through the u-joint holes on an unmodified axle, the factory axle ends were slightly out of phase. This might have been about 7 degrees. I checked 5 different axles and they all had a twist in them. They were also checked on a level, flat steel plate with known shims to check if my finding was accurate. I got the same results the second method and that the factory axles were out of phase a little. This could be caused by the torque of the Jag engine and the weight of the car. Hope this info helps and keep up the good work.  Willy in Winnipeg.

[Citron]

Jim,
We have $450 and change in the account.
Jim Thompson from Mauldin,SC donated the Jag hub that is needed.  I plan to bring it with me.  It will need new bearings.

Steve

[BlownMGB-V8]

Good to hear from you Kevin, thanks for the kind sentiments and I'm really interested in seeing how your upgrade turns out. That price was for 2 units, but we'll have to do some figuring to get the right springs. I'm sure Bill's input would be helpful. I'll try to call him as soon as I get a chance.

Willy, what a timely post! It's pretty normal for welding to cause some distortion but that twisting you reported is certainly something I wouldn't have expected. I definitely appreciate the heads-up. The stock shafts being twisted is a bit of a surprise as well. But I just wonder if it might have been caused by hard braking rather than engine torque? Really hard to say. But if we find it to be a problem I suppose we can go to larger diameter tubular half shafts later on.

Citron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jim,
> We have $450 and change in the account.
> Jim Thompson from Mauldin,SC donated the Jag hub
> that is needed.  I plan to bring it with me.  It
> will need new bearings.
>
> Steve

Another timely post! Steve, is there any chance you could also get the washer that the inner seal rides on?

We're missing one of these and the hub can't go together without it. We have new bearings and seals courtesy of Dan M. We also need four rotor shims but that's not so critical. Your timing couldn't have been better. After test assembly with the arms and such of the IRS for my roadster I realized that I couldn't get an accurate width measurement because the vette wheels won't fit the jag wheel center pilot. So I cut down the pilots on the two hubs we have and began the upright assembly by pressing the races into place.

I got to the point of pressing the bearings on and quit because I didn't feel like packing them. A very lucky thing as it turns out.

I have another question, maybe Willy or someone else can answer it. The hubs for my roadster appear to have a dust shield behind the hub flange:

which the ones for the Roadmaster do not have:

This seems to be a part that is commonly left off, though it does appear in the parts diagrams. Anyone know what the story is with those?

I have more photos for you also.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

As mentioned I did a test assembly to get width measurements. As mentioned the arms aren't parallel, though at first glance it might seem like they are, especially at full droop:

or at normal ride height:

But at full compression the picture is obviously much different:

Note what happens with the camber changes. Under compression the contact patch moves outward as the wheel angles in at the top, and when unloaded the opposite occurs though the effect is not so pronounced. But if you can visualize the car leaning and both tires still in contact with the ground, it would appear that the outside wheel is still relatively square with the pavement with the outside edge loaded more heavily than the inside. The inside wheel on the other hand is angled in relative to the pavement, tending to lift the outer edge of the tire off the ground first. None of this seems particularly troublesome, but it's graphically obvious that we do have camber changes with body lean due to the unequal lengths and offset pivot points of the arms. You would intuitively think that shortening the arms would exaggerate those camber changes, but at this point I can't say exactly what happens, since I've not made a study of unequal length suspensions. The easy choice would be to shorten each one by the same amount. Anyone care to step in here and help us out with an informed explanation? I'm all ears.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Finally, I have the shots I know you all really want to see.

This first shot, featuring all sorts of stuff stuck to the gas tank, shows the full width axle with the vette wheels and tires, and how far they stick out on both sides. Well, actually they would stick out maybe 3/8" less per side because of the hub pilot mismatch, but it gives a pretty good idea.

Here we have the left side

and the right. You've noticed I'm sure that the tire sticks out further on the left, this was a direct result of centering the pinion in the transmission tunnel and means that the left side will need to be shortened more than the right. How much? Roughly 3" on the right and 4" on the left, though those numbers will be much more accurate once we have the uprights with the machined hubs fitted. I'll try to get one pressed up tomorrow and fitted. Stay tuned!

Jim

[mgb260]

Jim, check out Art Morrison.com catalog on page 42. Coil over poly bushed street shocks $210 a pair with springs. They also have a 160# - 250# variable spring available. They use Gabriel adjustable shocks inside.I tried to scan a picture but could'nt.

[Willy's V8B]

http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/jag_rear/tech_jag.php

I'm sending this attachment in regards to your concerns about the control arm and the axles not being parallel. The UK hotrodders have shortened many Jag rear ends and it seems what your encountering is not unusual and not really a worry.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Jim, those look like a good deal, provided we can use that style top mount. I'll call them later today and ask about them. Thanks a lot.

Willy, thanks for the link. I saw some good discussion of the radius and torque arms but wasn't able to find anything about the LCA's or half shaft shortening. Is it there and I just didn't look in the right place?  Also on the radius arms I was sort of waiting on Rob to send me a pair of MGB spring eye bushings (but he's had trouble removing them from the springs) before making up the radius arms. The plan is to run a cross bar between the front spring hangers and locate the forward end in the center of that bar intersecting the inner pivots. By using longer rod for the pivots enclosed in a tube for the extension, this addition can be welded solid to the LCA and act as both the radius rod and the torque bar. But that may have to wait until after the meet. What I really want to concentrate on right now is the narrowing of the track.

Jim

[MGBV8]

But, but, wider is better!  Leave the track, widen the body!!!!    ;-)