Flanged liner options

[roverman]

Yeah thats great Jim, You didn't want to give ME any ideas. Now you got the "King" of tangients-Nic, all excited! roverman- one thought,one thought only.

[roverman]

Jim,Nic and clan.Wikipedia says Northstar has 4" bore "centers",with forged crank 2003-up. Prob. same-o as Quad and Aurora and "maybe",4.9L-Jim?Those 4.9L liners look, too thin at the bottom, to be bored very far? Jim, You gonna flow bench a head?

[mgb260]

Roverman, Those liners were already bored out .040 for Northstar pistons. Max for the stock liners. A shop in Tucson,AZ called Bud's Outback specializes boring the liners on an exchange basis. They also do Northstar work. Look in the Pennock's Fiero Archives on Will's Northstar build. A little too high tech for me. The 4.9 heads were notorious for small ports/low to midrange torque.Some people go to larger valves, but that just shrouds the valves. For a 3.62 bore motor,1.77 intake and 1.50 exhaust are pretty good.  You might gain 25 HP by porting and gasket matching.

[NixVegaGT]

Yup it looks like 100mm (3.938") bore centers. It's got to be a short engine. I've found one reference for 360lbs., says with flexplate and alternator. Not bad. I wonder what the overall dimensions are.

Jim, are those pix yours? Or do you have one of these laying around? Put a tape to it if you do. Let us know how long the block is and maybe block with waterpump. Deckheight? Width? How about width with the Quad4 heads. Cool.

Just interested. I'm probably never going to attempt a build of one of these, I'm too heavily invested in the Rover/Buick I guess.

That reminds me. I've got two bare blocks heading my way from Wilmington NC. I'll be making bore tests as soon as they get here. I figured I'd start with boring out the liners to 4" holes and see what it checks out at. That's another 100 thou larger than needed for the Westwood flanged repair liners for the 3.7" rovers. I'm guessing it's gonna be pretty thin if not breaking through. Don't know till you try though, right?

"If your gonna teach a cat to live with canaries, your gonna use-up a few canaries"

So let's say it is thin. I wonder how thin is too thin? Would block filler help this? Then the other block will get the same treatment. I figure then I'll pick the worst one and hog it out the rest of the way and make some internal measurements. I'm hoping 4.25" will not be goo big so as to block off the water passages or impede flow. Anybody got a guess here? Then I'll start with some 4" experimentation along with Mike.

These engines are fun to mess with. (dangling participle. Sorry it's regional ya know.)

[BlownMGB-V8]

I got a dangling particle too but you don't see me going around bragging about it. That what you mean by regional?

Man, I can't believe how this cold weather slows me down. Anyway I know what you mean by invested in these engines. If I was to start over at this point I'd probably be with Pete and go towards the LS series engines. It seems like a good motor and also looks like pretty much everything we need is already there. Funny, I went with the 215 because of the light weight. Then I added the extra weight of a blower and an iron block. Up to now that hasn't bothered me but it does make you question your decisions from time to time. I still think it's going to be a great combination, and the same for the MGB-Roadmaster, but now that this new light weight chebby engine is becoming affordable it is probably time to reconsider engine choices for a new build. I just might know where there is a decent MGB for sale at a price I can afford.... who knows? So how much sense does it really make to go with the monster overbore on a BOPR block? Sure, it's building something unique, and we know bigger bores allow bigger valves and better breathing, but by my figgering it's going to take at a bare minimum something over a grand to do the job and probably a good bit more. Doesn't it make more sense to put that money into an aluminum block that already has a big bore? I'm not saying that has to be an LS, it just looks like that one might be leading the charge. Personally I'd dearly love to go out and buy an alloy BBB but I just don't have the money for it. It's got some really big bores though.

Jim

[roverman]

Maybe "Mike" will have dangling liners, but we don't have to, do we?? Maybe some of us are drawn to the -"Wild BOAR", simply to go where no fool has gone? I get get no special,"thrill" from re-tracing someone els's road. I want to make my own, right or wrong-Dammit. In leiu of "forcing", 4"+ bores without adequate head flow=bad idea.Initially, its looks more like romance than happy ending. I would appreciate a good lead on "EB" welding for my Stg II castings. Anybody? Thanks,roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

I'm totally with you, Jim. When I started the LS series engines were out of my price range. They are way more affordable now. It is a great platform. Well thought out and tough. Big bores too. It really doesn't make practical sense to do this. I just can't help myself. It's what I'm into I guess. I love the puzzle of it and the potential solution. Fun. It is sorta that "Everest" appeal. It's totally impractical.

We are trained at an early age here to drag out the vowels as long as possible and to dangle participles at the end of any sentence we can. LOL! Ya know. MN thing. That's what I mean by regional.

[roverman]

I suppose I'm somewhat, passion driven with the BOAR. Otherwise I would just use well built"rotarys", right. Most space efficient,hp to weight.plentifull, yadayada.... Viva La Diff, roverman.

[roverman]

Melling # CSL 308 F, best price? I'm trying to "source", ACL brand, FSY3780-SF,(box) Aussie, I think it's actually "made" by "EC or EI,(Tsubaki),Japanese?,printed on sleeve, as retailed by Wildcat.

[V8WEDG]

Please excuse me if this is common knowledge, but in reading this thread it seems no one has mentioned it so I though I would.

According to "How to Power tune Rover V8s" by Des Hammill, a stock 3.9-4.6L block was bored to 3.880in/98.6mm to accept the liner and if perfectly cast stock, has a wall thickness of 0.120in/3.0mm.

So it seems that complete elimination of the block cylinder walls would occur if the block was bored to 4.00"/101.6mm

The book also gives the specs Wildcat Engineering uses for fitting 96mm bore dry tophat liners:
Block bored to 3.8975in/98.947mm
Liner OD = 3.900in/99.05mm
Liner ID = 3.780in/96.0mm
Block walll thickness with perfectly cast block = 0.1025in/2.653mm

-Robert

[roverman]

Robert, "Tsubaki", they make good chain,and is the exact sleeve you describe. Melling is 3.9" bore, posibly to be potted, in Rover or 4.9L Cad.,(high strength cast alloy). Thanks, roverman.

[NixVegaGT]

Thanks Robert. It's been a couple years since I read Des Hammill's book. Thanks for the post.

Welding in the 4.5" OD T6 tube is looking more and more necessary. I guess I'm gonna learn how to TIG weld. LOL! At least I got two blocks to practice on.

[mgb260]

Ford New Holland 800 tractor sleeve. 4.1 O.D., 3.9 I. D. $29.95. Not sure of length.

[roverman]

OK, wrap that sukka in piano wire,(330 ksi. tensile vs. 24 ksi. for sleeve), prior to insertion, and potting with "hardblock", now you got a strong sleeve,"if" you don't let it rust. If the flange od. is 4.24" or less, you can use the piano wire as a "thread form", and screw the sleeve into the block. Wait a minute,Tractor sleeve?... Nic are you lissnin? Isn't it  pity that "only", 6 different configurations of,low cost,forged LS-1 pistons fit that "Nic" type sleeve ?  roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Braze the ends of that piano wire to the sleeve so it'll stay put.

Jim

[slow_M]

Also LA sleeve.
A set of theirs in my Moto Guzzi with VW Mahle pistons.
B.

[NixVegaGT]

I'm still waiting on the blocks to show up. Can't wait to start cutting. We'll see what happens. I'm feeling like Jim right about now just waiting for the damn things to get here.

I'm gonna be in LA in March. I'll see if I can tour the facility.

[roverman]

Yes thanks Jim, I was also considering plugging ends of wire into "complimentary" holes in the sleeve prior to brazing/silver soldering.?  Speaking of "heli brazing"...segway, Nic and I are considering for retention of "processed" alum sleeves in block. We hope you have some wisdom to share ? 2010-make hp. within.  roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Probably silver soldering is a better choice, since elevating the temp of the wire anneals it, but once it wraps the cylinder a time or two there will be minimal tension on the end. I'd braze the top end first and then wrap with tension and then clamp and braze the bottom, thereby pre-stressing the winding a bit. As for joining the block and alloy sleeves, that could be soldered. It would have to be done in an inert atmosphere oven under tightly controlled conditions but would give better control of the joint with minimal clean-up and would be as strong as a cast single piece. (The tubes would be stronger.)

Jim

[NixVegaGT]

Jim N., Who makes that New Holland liner? That could work with the welded in T6 bore. I was reading that Hot Rod article Wesley posted and got some ideas. The Manley new Hemi flat top pistons have a 1.2" compression height. Those coupled with the 6" honda rod and an offset ground 4.6 crank with 3.5" stroke puts the piston 10 thou down the hole, and enough metal for valve reliefs. SWEET!

[mgb260]

Nic, pic is from Alexander's Tractor parts also available at Yesterday's Tractor. Ford New Holland  model 800 gas or diesel. 4.1 O.D. 3.9 I.D. $29 something each.

[NixVegaGT]

Perfect. Thanks Jim.

http://www.alexanderstractorparts.com/atpcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=47_48&products_id=1596

[roverman]

Thats great, but do they sell piianno wiar ? Feel the tension.

[87gn@tahoe]

Funny you guys should mention piano wire for cylinder wall strengthening... The Stanley Steam Car company built their firetube boilers with thin outer shells that were wrapped very tightly in piano wire (I forget what gauge). The practice made for a very strong (600 PSI working pressure) and "light" boiler.

To put that in a bit of perspective; 1gallon of water at 10PSI steam pressure is said to have the explosive capacity of about 1/2 stick of dynamite. The Stanley 30hp boilers hold about 5 gallons or more at regular operating level...

Of course, the piano wire wrapping is no longer acceptible for new boilers.. The ASME would never endorse that practice.

[BlownMGB-V8]

OK, how about this for a high tech approach. We start with thin wall chrome-moly tubing and have it plasma coated on the inside to form an iron/nickel alloy liner and then heat treat it for maximum strength. Use those the same way you'd use any cast iron liners but much stronger.

Jim