MY MGBGT V8 (clone) started having a ticking sound on start up that went away after about 30 seconds. It's a stroked 215 now at 266ci. It ran great but seemed lacking on low end grunt. In other words, it didn't threaten to break the tires loose. I did a compression test and cylinder 4 has 50 lbs. the others were all between 135 and 150 which is acceptable. I got a cheap endoscope on Amazon and looks like a lot of carbon and some scoring in #4. I added a little oil to the spark plug hole and the compression went to 175 lbs. Ring failure is assumed. Taking the engine out for the first time, I've had the car for about 5 yrs and it's been fun , but many issues have had to be addressed. We're counting on some help from wiser mechanics here, I know enough to be dangerous. Any comments are appreciated. The car can be viewed if you search Wayne Rippys 1974.5 MGBGT V8. Trying to attach photos, may have to resize them first.
-- moved topic --
Scott, Follow Jon's build on MGExperience site. We're in Sequim about an hour and a half from you!
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/jons-215-olds-stroker-build.4894175/
Will do , Thanks
I read through Jon's build and found it very useful! My first objective is to get the engine out. Ive read some post on that topic alone and am prepared for a bit of struggle. The 2 top bolts on the bell housing look to be accessible where as the article i read mentioned those bolts as being a pain. I'm wondering if the guys who did this build in 2009 placed the motor so as to leave access to the top bolts? I'm curious if you have any tricks to getting the motor out without the tranny? I've got an engine hoist and am getting close to attempting the removal. I have a transmission jack and the car is on jack stands. I'm not an engine builder but can get the motor to one once it's out. Is there a machine shop that you recommend that can do the rebuild? The motor ran great, no skips, overheating, no hard starting and sounded great. So, the ring failure (assuming it is that) surprised me. But i was thinking it was down on power. It should be in the 260 HP range and that car is light so that 260 hp should have shredded the tires and it didnt hint of that.
Thanks for the help
Scott
Scott, Many jack up the front and I find it is easier to pull engine with transmission. EDIT: rear end The Machine shop Jon used in Olympia is who I recommend. Keep us posted here.
https://www.johnsonsmachine.net/
Do you mean jack the front of the car so it's tilted upward or jacking the engine at an upward angle?
I'll reach out to the machine shop in Olympia once the engine is out.
I appreciate your input!
If your car is on jack stands you will have plenty of clearance.
If the car weren't already on jackstands, you'd probably find it necessary to jack up the front of the car. You or your helper will press downward on the tail of the transmission, thereby tilting the whole assembly relative the car's body. It's definitely much easier with helpers.
Once you get it out, I'd suggest you should take it apart yourself. If you haven't done that before, I think you'll find it fun and rewarding. Doesn't take any specialized tools... well, maybe a ridge reamer? You'll know sooner what went wrong. If you clean the parts up real nice, the machine shop will be able to give you a more accurate estimate and it'll be lower because there will be less labor and less doubt. Specs from <a href="https://www.britishv8.org/MG/WayneRippy.htm">
Wayne's HIWD</a> article such as the piston part#'s might be helpful to your machine shop's estimate too.
I remember meeting Wayne and photographing that car. It's a beauty!
circa 2009:
(https://www.britishv8.org/MG/WayneRippy/WayneRippy-CA.jpg)
Wow! You met Wayne, holly crap. I bought it from a lawyer from San Diego on BAT. He directed me to the Wayne Rippy article here. Your in Portland, I bought a aftermarket hood and took it to a great shop there that louvered the hood for me. Had vapor lock issues then and the new hood and several other fixes solved it.
Thanks for the tip!!
So you think i should do the disassembly on the motor. Maybe I will once it's out. My original plan was to get it down to the block with the heads attached and deliver that to the shop. I know taking it apart is easier than reassembling it (correctly) So maybe I'll tackle it.I appreciate the help.
We had the machine shop skim the block deck and heads, new soft plugs and cam bearings including TA back grooved front cam bearing. New bronze valve guide liners and Viton seals, three angle valve job, Comp cams 11 degree retainers and LT1 SBC springs on the heads. Delta Cams reground the cam and lifters. Custom Crank ground the crank, both are in Tacoma. We are doing the oil mods and all assembly ourselves.
260hp is a bit optimistic I'm afraid, you are far more likely to be in the ballpark of 200 in fully streetable trim. 260 will likely require an elevated redline, aggressive cam and better intake system. You can get there with more cubic inches though in various ways up to and including the 300 build (which is a better engine anyway). A 4.6L Rover engine is a decent option also and will match your bellhousing. As you know the 215 can be stroked to 266 (4.4L) and some 5 L Rovers have been built and even used in production (TVR). The 300 goes to 340/350 (5.6/5.7L) depending on overbore. It weighs 80lbs more but is cheaper and more durable. The weight is not an issue.
Jim
Jack up the front to pull an engine in an MGB?! I have never done that.
Jack up the rear & leave the front on the ground.
Jim B, his motor is already stroked with the 300 crank. With his cam he may have 260HP at the flywheel and 220HP at the wheels. Carl, I think you are right but he should have plenty of room if on jack stands.
Jon also had the machine shop do all threads with helicoils and one failed helicoil with an insert.
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I'm going to proceed with disconnecting the drive shaft, get a transmission jack under the tranny. Remove the crossmember. And then see what else has to come off. Ive got the photo resizer working finally.
Scott, progress!
Going to be yanking my 215 over the next few days with my posse.
Carl, Are you replacing with your new motor?
Thanks all!
I got the drive shaft disconnected after having to take the exhaust crossover section off. Tomorrow the tranny jack goes under and the crossmember comes off.
Have some more things to disconnect. Bagging and tagging and taking pics. After reading the horror stories of stripped head bolts on the 215, I'll have the machine shop do the helicoils where recommended.
Yes, progress is the goal. I'm going to get the thing helicoiled as you guys did. The seal upgrades of course!
In for a penny, in for a pound!
Thanks!
At 4.4L 260hp is a reasonable expectation. Agreed, jack up the rear.
Jim
You may want to send your cam and lifters to Delta Cams in Tacoma to be reground. That cam is a little hotter than most run and is what we used in Chris's 300 stroker build and Mike Moor has in his 300. Is the idle a little lopey?
Yes, the idle was a little lopey, but not an issue. The car felt and sounded great even with the bad ring or rings in#4. I will send the cam and lifters to Delta Cams. It may be obvious when it s taken apart. And new cam and lifters could be needed??
They might be OK. If you mic the lobes, and they are the same specs of .488 IN and .501 EX, and the bottom of the lifters look good. The lifters have to go back in the same positions they were. The process Delta Cams does makes them better than new. Use high zinc dino oil for breakin.
The lift specs are after the rocker ratio. At the lobe would be three something. As long as all the intake lobes are the same and all the exhaust lobes are the same, you are good. Jon's cam had two shorter lobes.
RE: Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: April 26, 2025 08:05AM
260hp is a bit optimistic I'm afraid, you are far more likely to be in the ballpark of 200 in fully streetable trim.
Jim,
I respect the heck out of you and owe you for coughing up that 300 crank to finish my engine. I don't know what HP the car will have but it did an electrically certified 4.4 0-60 and ran in the high 12's back east.
The car was traded straight across for a nice '93 Viper. The Viper owner drag raced it and wore it out, selling it minus a cam and front water pump plate to the guy I bought if off who had a NY hotrod shop put it back together then left it with the dealer's son to screw around with. I got it with broken rings and 30# maximum oil pressure.
May I ask your opinion of the safety of doing a dyno? I believe the stress and chances you take aren't worth it. I'll be doing 3 runs at Bremerton to set a 1/4 mile time for my car show sheet. My recent tree reflex times were .143, .173, .162, .155, .131 ending with a .013. Did a reflex test resulting at 23 year old level...not bad for being 77. Not as good as I once was but apparently as good once as I ever was... :)
You advise dyno appreciated. Jon
So we're close to taking it out. I'm going to lower the front as was mentioned, to make sure the hoist doesn't run out of height before it clears the front. A friend suggested removing the engine from the bell housing first. I've read about doing it that way, they removed the motor mounts and let the engine drop far enough to access the tricky side bolts. I'm not doing that, the bell housing needs some attention as there appears to be a crack repair?? Tomorrow we see!
Thanks for all the tips!
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Jim,
What exactly are the oil mods you refer to. And does it require any tools other than a 40 yr old Black and Decker plug in drill?
Scott, they may have already been done. The stock inlet hole in the block is only 7/16" and most take it out to 1/2" or even 9/16" and the hole in the timing cover that connects. you need a long drill bit. On the oil pump you want tight clearance, .001-.002. I drill an additional hole in the oil pump. Oil pump booster plate. There are more details on here, MGexperience and on the V8Buick site. On Jon's motor the main bearing holes were opened up to 1/4" Use the 5/8" V6 pickup. The main thing is to run tight clearances on the rods and mains. We had the crank ground to have .001 on the mains and .0015 on the rods. We also used the TA back grooved front cam bearing and adjustable pressure regulator.
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/buick-rover-oiling-mods.4420484/
"Carl, Are you replacing with your new motor?" -Jim N.
Not new. Jim Miller gave me his used 215 (1962 HI block) that he replaced with a fresh rebuilt 215. Jim brought it up from Florida. Mike Moor came down from northern Indiana & Phil McConnel came down from northern Ohio. Stayed with me for four days for wrenching & camaraderie. They drove a combined 3800 miles round trip. We had a large time. Several more said they would have joined us had they known, including Rob Ficalora from Texas. I live in East Tennessee, so I have many long distance very good friends.
The British V8 group is one of the finest group of people one could ever hope to be a part of.
Wish you would get on a plane & come join us in Long Island, NY June 2-7, so that you can experience what I have kept returning to for the last 27 V8 meets, Jim N.
All good advice, there are many postings on here and MGE about the mods. I set the pump gears so that they just touch. Very slight drag when assembled. The clearance opens up when warm due to the dissimilar metals and there is always a very slight misalignment in the pump from true perpendicular making a mockery of measuring end clearance which is why you see a half-moon wear pattern on the cover.
The suction galley can and has been enlarged safely to as much as 5/8" but 9/16 works. I highly recommend a piloted drill bit for the job. Any competent machinist can grind a 7/16" nose on the end of a 12" drill bit and you're good to go. It will stay centered in the hole whereas an unpiloted bit will wander and sometimes will break out. Even then that is repairable with thinwall brass tubing from the hardware store but who wants to go through all that, right? Having to seal the tube to the block so it doesn't suck in air and all that business plus having a crooked hole to deal with, the tube doesn't like that much. I've also (once only) had to straighten out a hole that started to go crooked which meant grinding back the flutes of a piloted bit so that it only contacted the hole for maybe three eighths of an inch which let the pilot bring it back to center. Saved that one. Learn from my experience. Get the pilot ground on the bit. You can do it yourself by hand if you take the time to learn about cutting edge clearance angles, the pilot doesn't have to be perfect. It only has to center the bit and allow the cutting edges to work. Then your old drill motor is adequate. The worst you are likely to do is cut a little oversize, or not cut which means you need to adjust the clearance angles on the step. Don't make the pilot any longer than it has to be to center the bit.
I spec .001" for both rod and main bearings and that seems to work out well. I look for .0008-.0012" as the assembled clearance. Currently running 0w20 synthetic oil with good oil pressure. 30psi hot at idle. The key is to control the oil and not let it escape unnecessarily. My gas mileage has gone up.
The technology of the day meant these engines could safely spin up to around 6k occasionally without undue stress. To extend that requires better metallurgy in the pistons and rods but the valve springs and ignition points also require attention. Stock points were never good for more than 5500 unless they were a performance variant. Valves would start to float at a couple hundred over stock redline usually and in the Buick that meant somewhere just north of 5k. These were the primary limiting factors of the stock engines. Better springs and points could get you to 6. Much has been made of the intake not supporting that but it was more the overall configuration including the carb, air cleaner, and exhaust. A freer flowing air cleaner and somewhat larger carb could extend the redline significantly as could a freer flowing exhaust, bearing in mind that standard for a small block muscle car of the era was cast iron manifolds, 2-1/4" down pipes, and 2" tail pipes with a somewhat restrictive muffler. We can certainly do better than that, I regularly spun a 215 to 7k and had it making power all the way up. It was a stock 4bbl Buick with a hot cam, but also the best performance exhaust you are ever likely to see on an MGB. Still run that system today in fact. Occasionally someone makes the mistake of thinking if more is good even more is better. Not so. All you end up with is loud.
Jim
My 215 may be the exception, but it has done more than an occasional 6 grand. It has spent quite a bit of time living at 5500-6500 rpm during track days & autox (& Tail of the Dragon). All OEM parts & no valve float. Mine has been a stout, reliable little V8. Love these engines.
Jim B, Very well stated! Carl, One of these days I'll make it to a V8 meet. West of the Mississippi would be better for me. NY, I would get the long distance award for sure! Sounds like a fun time on the engine swap!
She's out! The crack in the bell housing is odd. Looks like they kept drilling the crack trying to slow it's creap.
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Anybody seen this area cracked?
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Carl had a cracked bellhousing before also. I think the early D&D bellhousing had issues.
Ahh! I'm looking at getting a new one or used that will fit my LT77 5 speed. Its probably a Rover unit right? This is sick! There's JB weld in the crack! I guess they didnt want to pull the tranny, so got some epoxy and a drill. Geez! I didnt want to clean it up anyways.
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You could Tig weld it. But it has to be real clean first. I'd be tempted to use those low temperature rods that are more like brazing. You use a Mapp gas torch and heat the aluminum until the flux turns brown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-iw3BiR4IQ
Non-critical area. Bake it in an oven on the self-clean cycle then bevel the edges with a die grinder and it should TIG just fine. Way cheaper than a new bell.
Jim
Yeah, only SD1 and TR8 used or new from Rimmer or TWS for $500.
I'm going to try the low temp brazing rods with Mapp gas or mapp w/ oxygen,
thanks
Here's what I'm going to try. It's hotter than Mapp gas alone with the added oxygen. We'll see..
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It is worse than i thought. It was only held together by the JB Weld.. Getting all of that residue off is a pain.
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Not sure how or why this was done the way it was, but I'm guessing it was a temporary fix without taking the motor out. Trying to clean it up as much as possible. Hoping the brazing thing works. If not, I gotta pay a Tig welder.
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Scott, I'd bevel the crack open a bit for more penetration. The brazing rod will be stronger than the surrounding aluminum. I think where it was broke they hit a rock or something hard like a curb maybe? Mapp gas alone would get hot enough, but with oxygen you will get hot quicker.
Thanks Jim,
Bevel it just like a tig weld set up.
Getting out of tight spaces may be easier with a load leveller (https://www.frost.co.uk/engine-tilter-load-leveller-hoist-crane/) as it enables the engine to be tilted.
"One of these days I'll make it to a V8 meet. West of the Mississippi would be better for me."
There has only been one. That was in Colorado Springs in 2014. It was not as well attended as those East of the mighty Mississippi River.
"Carl had a cracked bellhousing before also. I think the early D&D bellhousing had issues."
I have now cracked two OEM Buick bellhousings. Crack starts at the thin section of the clutch fork window & migrates around.
Fortunately, I had a fully round D&D bell in storage waiting for a new engine. So glad I measured it before installing. The Buick bell was a 1/4" deeper.
Yes, the load leveler helped a bunch.
I just use a big, strong nylon strap under the intake manifold. It can be slid back & forth as needed.
Quote"One of these days I'll make it to a V8 meet. West of the Mississippi would be better for me."
There has only been one. That was in Colorado Springs in 2014. It was not as well attended as those East of the mighty Mississippi River.
Don't forget about the 2012 meet in Palestine, Texas and the 2013 meet in Omaha, Nebraska. All of those were great meets! In retrospect, it might've been better if the three western meets weren't back-to-back... but meets are held where someone volunteers to host a meet.
One of these days guys, I promise I I just don't like to fly and it's always a long drive. Maybe we should do a NW one? Clark County fairgrounds Vancouver, WA. Curtis you are in Portland, what do you think? We could draw from California to Canada and everybody West of the Mississippi!
If you can get one, preferably two, to host it & do the leg work. Just don't expect many of the Eastern British V8 crew to attend. Not nearly as many of that bunch went to Colorado Springs as I expected to be there.
Yes, Curtis, I forgot which side of the Mighty Mississippi that Omaha was on. The Lumberjack's last hurrah. What a great time we had!
Texas is a part of the South to many, so I excuse them for being on the Left side of the Mississippi River. :)
Beveled!
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Scott, looks like you're ready to melt some metal!
I'd strongly encourage you to persuade the wife to visit her family for a day and use the opportunity to pop it into the oven and set the self-clean cycle.
Oil gets down into the pores of the aluminum casting and will continue to boil out as you attempt the repair. The hydrocarbon gases will interfere with your gas shield (yes, burned fuel gases are an effective shield to keep the oxygen away from the aluminum) resulting in a dirty nasty weld that will be ugly and weak. This is true even when you are brazing which is what you are talking about attempting with the mapp gas process.
You also risk melting holes in it, especially if the metal is dirty. What happens is that you get it *almost* hot enough to get the rod to stick but due to a thin oxide layer it just won't quite do it so you heat it a little more trying to penetrate the surface layer and stick to the metal that is starting to melt underneath and are just starting to get some progress when a dime sized area just drops out on the floor and now you have a hole to patch with ragged oxidized edges. BTDT
Not trying to discourage you though. Here's an old-timer's trick: Smoke the area to deposit a thin layer of carbon. (easily done with acetylene but with other gases you have to find a way to block the air from the torch so you get a smokey flame) Then as you heat the area and approach melting temps the carbon will begin to burn off, and when it finally does you are just slightly below the melting point and at risk. This is the temp where your brazing rod will work the best.
I'd recommend you try to practice on something else first if you can.
Jim
Scott, since the piece is removeable you can use the torch to boil out any oil and impurities on both sides where you are going to braze. Then use a stainless wire brush to clean, Did you clean with a chemical? Acetone and lacquer thinner are fine but Brake Clean should never be used if welding or brazing as it gives off dangerous fumes. If you did use that, use a fan for ventilation.
My first attempt at brazing was a fail! I cleaned the parts with degreaser and yes brake clean. I read afterwords to use only non chlorinated versions.
Anyways, the problem with the Mapp/oxygen torch is you have to run the oxygen volume high and it only last 20 mins or less. So i ran out of oxygen before the area was hot enough. These bell-housings are thick and a giant heat sink. I ran out of oxy right about when it got hot enough. So, I'm going to try again on a warm day when I can put the parts in the sun for several hours (it was 53 this morning) and then with extra oxygen/Mapp at the ready will attempt again. It doesn't help that the metal is saturated in grease/oil. Even after it was cleaned I think the porous aluminum has oil residue.
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I did manage to get the engine on a stand, so the day had some progress!
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Scott, Engine looks pretty clean!
Yes, it's pretty good. We now think it might have sat for a few years after the original owner passed.
Scott, You don't need the oxygen, Those oxygen cylinders will deplete about 10 to 1 to the gas. You only need about 750F and the Mapp gas is 3600F with air and over 5000F with oxygen. I'd get another Mapp cylinder and the Bernzomatic tip. I'd start on one side and heat until the rod melts a couple inches and then go to the other side then the other side etc,.After you have it stitched all the way around go back over and remelt, then fill holes and any gaps. This is the torch I've had good luck with:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403968973908?var=0&toolid=10044&customid=ced2917d483413f6506ef96576ad5ec7
Hate to be a broken record but the kitchen oven is your friend. It can burn out all the oil by using the self clean cycle and once it releases the parts should still be hot enough to take care of the preheat, and as you are learning, being able to preheat the parts is a huge benefit, especially when your heat source is limited.
Jim
Ordered a new torch and will try it with MAPP gas only. And I did think about the oven preheat idea. I'm sure that would help immensely!
Jim N wrote:
QuoteMaybe we should do a NW one? Clark County fairgrounds Vancouver, WA. Curtis you are in Portland, what do you think?
I'd support the effort, but until I'm retired I wouldn't have time to do the job justice. BV8 meets don't typically need a fairground... but rather a nice hotel or motel all participants can stay at. It should preferably have an on-premise hot breakfast and also a meeting room. Its management definitely must be okay with gearheads congregating around their cars in the parking lot day-and-night. It's best if they even supply a hose for freshening up the cars after driving events. The meets usually start on a Sunday with most people arriving after lunchtime. They typically wrap up with a banquet on Wednesday night, with most people departing the host hotel after breakfast.
I could imagine a meet centered around Gig Harbor, Washington. From there participants might enjoy the drive up to the top of Mount Ranier one day, with lunch and an optional short hike at the top. On another day, participants might enjoy visiting the LeMay Collection a.k.a. "America's Car Museum" in Tacoma. (Other museum options include the Boeing Museum.) On a third day, participants might enjoy a track day at Pacific Raceways in Kent - I haven't driven on that racetrack but it appears to have a lot of elevation change and the property is pretty (forested). They host drag racing there too. The paddock is nice, and as I recall there are a lot of racing related businesses nearby. (Maybe we could arrange a "dyno day"?) Perhaps we might try to all get on the same ferry at some point and cross into Seattle for some sort of entertainment there. One wouldn't want to visit that area and not see some of Puget Sound, right?
Vancouver is a nice enough town, but it's just a suburb of Portland. I'd probably prefer a town on the Oregon side. We don't have sales tax and most of the things we'd likely want to do are on the Oregon side. Instead or Ranier we'd likely drive up to Mount Hood, and visit its awesome Timberline Lodge. That drive can be a nice loop. On the south bank of the Columbia River you've got a historic/scenic highway, many waterfalls, Roosevelt dam, Bridge of the Gods, kite-surfing & windsurfing, vineyards, etc. If time permits, there are lovely forest roads back that aren't along the river. (BTW: Mount St Helens is another option from either Gig Harbor or Pdx - especially interesting for those of us that remember its eruption - but there's less to see on the way to St Helens and the excellent interpretave center at the top may be gone by then.) On a second day we could drive toward the coast, maybe through the Willamette valley. The Evergreen aviation museum is excellent. I know a park that overlooks the ocean which features hundreds of old-growth Sitka Spruce, Firs, and Cedars six feet and sometimes way more in diameter. Back in Portland, we're one of the only cities in America with an in-town International Raceway that's operated as a city park. We could possibly arrange a track day there, ideally splitting the cost with another group. Both P.I.R. and Kent used to hosts Can-Am races, but P.I.R. has been modernized to keep IndyCars coming... it's a big deal track BUT it's relatively flat, so not so very fun IMHO for track days. However, on Wednesdays all summer long it hosts a cruise-in which draws about 1000 cool cars/week. Live band and food carts. As the Cruise-In slows down, the dragstrip heats up. On Wednesday's they do 1/8th-mile runs whereas on weekends they run 1/4-miles. It's pretty casual. My favorites are the little miniature dragsters for kids, with Briggs-and-Stratton engines. And most-of-all I love dragracing snowmobiles. They run on special racing slicks, and they're fantastically fierce! However, it's very unpredictable who will show up. We wouldn't have any trouble getting our own runs in. Portland has a very big Cars-and-Coffee event too, but on Saturdays so not as conducive to BV8 participation. (This year, June 28th is the all-British day.)
Curtis. lots of good ideas! My brother lives in Beaverton. Something to think about!
You haven't attended in awhile, Curtis. This will be the third year of it being a full 4 day event. Also, will be the 3rd year of arrive on Monday & leave on Saturday.
I had a blast at Putnam Park, which is flat. Even Nelson Ledges was fun, but I much prefer VIR & Road America. :)
Here we call those Jr. Dragsters.
How about Silverdale, lots of hotels and amenities, the town is basically a large Mall. Bremerton Naval shipyard tours and Dragstrip, Drive in movie theater a short trip to the Olympic Peninsula, Port Townsend, Sequim and Port Angeles(also Ferry to Victoria BC). About 3 hour drive to Ocean Shores and the Pacific Coast beaches. Curtis, you got me thinking.
You guys definitely need to do it in Silverdale! The Naval Undersea Museum is just down the Hwy as well. I'm 18 mins from Silverdale: does that make me an opportunist, yes!
Scott, Me too! I'm about an hour away.
I honestly don't know why it's taken you guys this long to start setting this up.
In the early days the meet was completely informal, no reason why you couldn't do that sort of thing there as well. Set up a sort of ala-carte schedule and do what you like with whoever else is doing it. It worked. Sometimes we had only one or two doing some things but that's all you need really. The parking lot has always been the big event.
Jim
Are y'all trying to snap my attendance streak?!
I thought Colorado Springs was a long haul. Silverdale, WA is twice as far away. I will be very surprised if there is much participation from East of the Mighty Mississippi. We are all getting older & seem less enthused about long trips in our LBCs. When I attended my 1st V8 meet in 1998, I had no idea that it would continue anywhere near this long.
I believe it would likely wind up being a British V8 meet West & East that year. Actually, I would have thought that this would have already been the norm years ago.
That's what the Sunbeam guys do, East and West. They call them Invasions and try to time them with other British car shows. I think they are usually 3 days.
Carl, you would get the longest distance award!
Second attempt at the brazing thing. Supposed to hit 75 today so maybe the sun can heat it up a bit.
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Scott, Don't try to heat the whole area. Just a couple inches at a time going back and forth side to side until it is stitched all the way around. Then go back over it with the torch to melt it together..
I was awarded a 32 oz glass beer mug trophy at the Cincinnati, Ohio car show one year for Long Distance award. I drove my B to Jim Blackwood's, then drove the Roadmaster to the show.
At our British V8 meets, we don't do awards & trophies. Although, we do occasionally give out a hard luck award.
So, here's the new brazing rig, straight Mapp gas. (Thanks Jim)
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Scott, that torch always worked the best for me. You can improve your oxygen cylinder with a threaded adapter and Medical oxygen tank. How'd it go?
After warming it up in the sun for 3 hours, then putting a small space heater next to it for a while, we whipped out the Mapp torch. It still took about 5 minutes of heating the area with the torch before the rod would melt/flow. Not having any clamp that would work, I tried doing one area hoping it would work like a tac weld. As soon as I heated the other side up, the first area let go. Eventually I got enough to hold that i could work around the joint. I did the inside as well which was tricky as the rod material wants to fall out the other side. I need to grind it down more and see what it looks like. I may add some epoxy to fill any pin holes.
Thanks for the tips guys!
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Looks great!
Hard to beat success. Odd that it broke there in the first place.
Jim
Should know in a few days what happened to #4 cylinder. Probably a ring failure, but we'll see.
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I'm stumped. I'm reading that Olds 215 heads have the extra 6th head bolt. Olds heads have 5 valve cover bolts. My heads have 5 valve cover bolts but only 5 head bolts. Its number on the head reads S 929606. Stamped upside down on the block under the head id # reads HI 305065. That number appears to be a Buick number (1962 High compression 4 barrel). Its supposed to be an Olds 215 with Olds heads. supposedly you cant use the Olds heads on a Buick due to the extra bolt (unless you drill and tap the block for the extra bolt. There is no 6th bolt on my heads. What am I missing?
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Scott, The rocker shaft hold down bolts are the 6th head bolts. After you pull the heads you should see 4 steam holes in the block near the valley that match the small holes in the head. The head gasket needs to have those holes too. Jon's block also has a Buick #. Maybe the factory ran short and tapped the extra head bolt holes and drilled the steam holes?
Scott these images may be useful when you assemble: Use 55ftlb TQ on heads Main TQ 55ftlb except rear is 65ftlb Intake TQ 25ftlb Rod bolt TQ 35 ftlb
olds215tq.jpg
215crankseq.jpg
firingorder.jpeg
intaketqseq.jpg
Looks like a Buick head to me. The rocker shaft/head bolts on the Olds 215 line up with the bottom head bolts
Thanks Jim. I know the internet can provide bad info depending on who wrote it. There are sites that tell me only the Olds 215 heads have 5 valve cover bolts, which i have. Also, it's out there that the sixth head bolt is on the intake manifold side of each head. It is also stated that the Buick head can bolt on the Olds block but not the other way around. My Block has HI 305065 stamped on it under the numbers stamped on the head, which according to my reading is a 1962 Buick High compression 4 barrel model. On the head it has S 929606 which is supposedly an Olds number signifying 155 HP. When I get the heads off, it might be clearer to determine. Also read that the top of the Buick heads are more parallel to the ground and the top of the Olds heads are parallel to the block top surface; don't know about that either
Scott, Jon has a Buick block too. The sixth hole was drilled and tapped and the four steam holes drilled on each side. The Olds uses bigger 7/16 bolts for the rockers, Buick uses 3/8. Carl ,I think it is the angle of the photo and I don't think the bolt holes are perfectly in alignment. Look at the size of the rocker hold down bolt heads and the five valve cover bolt holes.
Image of Olds head compared to Buick head. Note the rocker mount bosses. Plus the angle of the valve cover mounting.
oldshead.jpg
buickhead.jpg
I believe you are correct, Jim. That photo threw me off. The prior pic showing both heads on the block definitely is Olds 215. The valve cover bolts, as well.
Olds head gasket.
Olds215HeadGaskets.jpg
I have argued for years that the Olds head can be used on the Buick block. As Jim said, the block has to be prepped for it. I have had some say the the Buick block does not have the bosses for the 6th bolt. Obviously, they do. Rover deleted those bosses.
It's kind of an odd coincidence that both Scott's and Jon's are both Buick blocks. Did previous owners modify the blocks or the Olds factory?
I knew it was doable, but this is the first time I have seen it done. I am surprised that the Buick & Olds block carry different part #s. What other block differences are there?
Thanks Guys, I'm removing the heads hopefully this week. We may get confirmation on the 6th bolt then.
I got the heads off and it looks to me the head gasket failed in a couple of spots. But more importantly you guys can tell me if it's been modified to accept the olds head on the Buick block. I dont know which holes I'm supposed to be looking at. Also, it appears now that the motor is stuck. I cant turn it over. After i tried the Solvent mixture to the offending cylinder and let it sit for a few days, drained the oil , refilled it and started it it sounded bad, so i shut it off. May have unstuck a ring which now is wedged maybe?? I dont know?
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Here's a shot of the heads with gasket. Am i correct that the gasket shows scorched areas where it shouldn't?
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Drivers side head with dark area on the right.
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The valley has areas where the casting looks like it's been modified or open up. This may be what they all look like. You guys would know. I'm curious what the consensus is on the Olds vs Buick heads? The head gasket looks like the picture posted by Carl.
IMG_1895.png
Which hole would have been drill and tapped?
Scott, The ones closest to the valley with the bosses where the rocker shaft hold down bolts were. The Buick heads have their own rocker hold downs and the Buick gasket would cover the holes. With your high compression pistons, the Olds heads you have or the Buick 300 heads (which only have 4 bolts per cylinder and don't use the lower bolts) are the only ones that will work unless you change to a dished piston. The one you call #4 is #7 actually if you look at the firing order image I posted. Head gasket may have leaked combustion there into water jacket. Does that piston looks a little cleaner? I'd have the deck and head surfaced and use a composition gasket.
Also, if you were to use the Buick heads, you would have to use early Buick head gaskets and valve covers and the pushrods are different lengths too.
The cylinder that was low compression was #4. Passenger side 2nd piston from the front.
Scott, maybe a small head gasket leak on #7 too. EDIT: after looking closer #1. I'd look close at #4 top and second ring and the land between. Here is an image of a Buick 215 showing the upper head bolt holes not drilled and absence of the four small steam holes. Note the dished pistons because of the smaller cc chamber in the Buick heads.
MikeAlexander-MG-MGB-32-808422837.jpg
So, why is it said that the olds head has 6 head bolts and the Buick head only has 5 when the olds head has 4 extra bolts per head?? The scoring i saw with the scope turns out not to be that bad, so honing should be all that's necessary. Unless there's something I haven't uncovered yet. I used my digital mic and the cylinders all measure 3.5, so its not been over-bored to this point.
Scott, 6 per cylinder for Olds vs 5 for Buick 215 and 4 for Rover and Buick 300. You will have to visually inspect the piston and rings. Broken rings cause vertical scratches and if not too deep maybe honing will be fine that's what we did on Jon's motor which had 3 pistons with broken rings. I thought the build in BritishV8 said they were .020 over. The top of the piston will be stamped if oversize. The back of the rod and main bearings are stamped if undersize. It's a good idea to replace rings and bearings, seals etc.
It says 3.524, so I'll remeasure. I hope it only needs rings and honing. But of course new seals and gaskets. Any ideas on a better head gasket?
We are using a Best Gasket overhaul set for an Olds 215. You have to order a Felpro intake valley pan as it is not included. Also Best Gasket and TA have the rubber rear seal for the 300 crank. The pistons you have are probably for another engine that has that bore size. I tried looking up the TRW # and came up empty. I'll look for an application with that bore size. you will need to know that for the ring size. Our pistons meant for 80's Camaro 2.8 V6 are .040 over, actually .039 and are stamped on top 1.0 metric oversize. Some stroker builds use other pistons from a Ford 3.0 Vulcan V6 or GM 4 cylinder. When you get the pistons out measure the compression height from center of piston to top of piston.
The chart on D&D's page shows frequently used pistons.
http://www.aluminumv8.com/Home/Technical
If it is a GM 173/2.8 V6 piston that is .020 over it will have a .5 stamped on the top. If that is the case you need to measure the ring thickness on the top 2 and oil ring gap to verify. They used 3 different ring packages over the years.
On a positive note the engine isn't stuck; the flywheel is contacting 2 bolts on the engine stand. I need to add some more spacers to give clearance.
I'm afraid I'll be over my head reassembling the motor internals as I've never attempted a complete engine rebuild. Ive taken heads off and had valve jobs done and reinstalled them. Thats the extent of my mechanic on the job training. I can take it apart, but complete reassembly is not something I'm comfortable with. With that in mind should i disassemble it if i don't intend to be the one putting it back together.? This site (you guys) offers all the expertise as guidance, but with the cost involved and the possibility of having to remove the engine and start over; I'm very hesitant. The question is at what point should I turn it over to a real expert and who.
I would at least pull #4 piston to see what is going on there. Call the machine shop and ask if they would prefer it left together or you disassemble. I think you'd be fine and we could talk you through it. Keep the lifters in the same holes and keep the rod caps with the rods. The main caps are numbered 1 through 5. Did you look on top the piston for a .5 stamp?
If you do decide to assemble here is a simple ring gap diagram:
ringgaps.jpg
I appreciate the tips!! And I agree on pulling #4 at a minimum.
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Probably similar to what we used only .020 over.
I think that is a discontinued Sealed Power #. That is the brand Jon had with broken rings in his motor. The top ring is supposed to be 1.5 and they installed 1.2. Probably unaware there were 3 different size ring packages over the years. He has Silvolite now.
Overhaul gasket set:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/171771172910?_skw=olds+215+overhaul+gasket+kit&itmmeta=01JVARN04A9KR8GMVBQ1NGZGEV&hash=item27fe5c182e:g:t3EAAOSwMhlgnAqV&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAABAFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1dRwEsPAawuNd9UZgfnBubzzS%2BcsmH7jpX%2FUY%2BKUPUXmde6Qeq%2FvvwDu%2B7YDLaAbpd2LA6N0WICZk5pgqx4q%2FWXreiJvw4ExHN46z0uYjkYxRGzrk2FJ38QgV6cU4LvFUytxPYV8vs1JVNDyLGuZhDSS8jQdYQFE88gP1MIe7YRf%2FQ8VRziNY%2F1vowhZAObtuMYVqwHskF8ns0EKUzJjU5ScvmdRhCmK1Y2dnLVl4i6FkOz89GD3PYl0%2BPFggpRwSeTJoA%2FTos7IinQ0hWA3C7Kp1gVPebTnd%2FW1LUJf4WX%2FdhOL9gkALFnooLcOlIg%2BxE%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6aC1NjaZQ
Buick 300 V8 rear seal:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/226112857066?_skw=buick+300+v8++rear+seal&itmmeta=01JVARSX8X83X0H46JWFT9TYT4&hash=item34a56063ea:g:bUoAAOSwrnxmKWaG&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cL9OT0r4FxrDqQ%2BEM2mPxiASWSQQ3S6shWkzBe3V71QzFgGVa6%2BpNFm8ONdVyX0bse5MjCzDYY3Fj6%2FencMVqHav9LQQNGS1HYrXmuyRJZqu2z4fqUf7oZhm6D63q0xPM%2BlyK%2BfgjIsIIUgRIh2t9duatc4qP5zFJvxFrhnxSutYIXeALpD0T4uDJT38%2FShh%2BgdEJtsoCInC5sHLGMGDjY%2F5RXUDYzYmvTBWvgtVzu6TP5tVQypJDU5bhRj%2FEzyoY%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR87U59jaZQ
Valley pan intake gasket:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196862336572?_skw=215+valley+pan+intake&epid=79358154&itmmeta=01JVARWPQHVJ2DZX0SDE6R2R10&hash=item2dd5e8de3c:g:42kAAeSwvjdoJkfV&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA8FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1eNZV2O5rTfmKPU7QEwkYHYE3P7loXoAP6WcoOcNujhZ8eAL8gSvcW3%2FnmEzdxlE40Httmlgsaf9z1hC9iQCuv6vohK2FZ95jONx8zPM5zXFE1xsAz%2B0bh9rOQi0BdEYgvDnilQ61Atx3kgzv4VlrsMMvz3DQrq857lrdOEUBeI5H3CVy8tl8BVtiTKsmXDQVQzxlKkPscAEIDp8KlKiYvtLU98KrxrO0%2BZoC64sU6qjdF6u%2Biq1RvB8E5RONfl7WbCGBFR%2BhcSn6bxe1HF%2B1K5oN4OP%2FvOPDuOW%2FrZQvxYfA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_zr8tjaZQ
I found your pistons on Ebay. The # is a TRW #. Lists the application so if you need a replacement for # 4 it would be helpful.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195785420902
Now they are Speed Pro:
https://www.campbellenterprises.com/trw_pistons_speed_pro_pistons.htm
Thank you both!!!
Sealed Power piston.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324030234822?chn=ps&google_free_listing_action=view_item&com_cvv=8fb3d522dc163aeadb66e08cd7450cbbdddc64c6cf2e8891f6d48747c6d56d2c
I was able to get the engine stand bracket bolts off of the flywheel, so we can now rotate the crank. This is #4 cylinder and there are some serious gouges that can be felt with the finger tip. I'm afraid honing that cylinder wont be enough. I'm sure it will need to be bored. The question is can it be bored enough to get it back to good. So far the other cylinders look good.
Next step is to remove the #4 piston. First time for me!
Also, Jim, that valley pan is for Buick, will my Olds heads line up correctly?
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Scott, The intake fits both. Those grooves look deeper than they are. If they are too bad you could have the machine shop sleeve that cylinder but probably would cost more than boring all eight. I would pull that piston and rod. You will at least need a new piston and I bet there is broken rings. I'd pull everything and try to hone it out and see. Worst case scenario bore to .040 over and get the same pistons we have.
OK, the grooves in the cylinder are fairly deep. The photo doesn't really show it. But if boring it to 040 solves it, thats plan B. Thanks for the valley pan tip, gonna order it.
What is the hurry? Seems to me a valley pan is the least of your worries, at this point, Scott. When you get your short block issue resolved, you can have one in a few days.
Both compression rings were in pieces. Extremely brittle, almost plastic like. The piston looks fine to me, but the cylinder wall is the issue i guess. Since I have no experience, how much material can honing it remove? If you can feel the gouges with your finger tip, does honing seem unlikely to get it right? Will boring 40 over be risky? The other cylinders seem fine, cant feel any scratches.
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Timing chain has a fair amount of slack, Assume thats not right.
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Little bit of rust at the bottom of the cylinder.
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Scott, You won't know if honing will remove it until you try. We took the worst one on Jon's motor and I counted about 30 up and down strokes before they were almost gone. Adjust max tension on the hone and go fairly fast without going out of the cylinder for a good crosshatch. Spray WD 40 in the cylinder first and about every 10 strokes spray the stones. Did all of them about 40 strokes to be the same. Wipe out with ATF on a clean lint free rag. Machine shop honed again. New cast pistons usually are set up with tight tolerance of about .002 clearance. You can go up to about .007 clearance before they will rattle when cold. Little pieces of the rings ended up in the pan and on the way down nicked the big ends of some connecting rods. We touched them up with a file. You definitely need a new timing set. .040 isn't risky but is as far as you can go. Sounds like you are in the same boat we were.
I'll give it a shot, nothing to lose. Any particular of hone you guys use?
Thanks!
I use the one with three stones, It is more aggressive where the flexhone with balls on the end are for a finer finish. My brother when he refreshed his race engine used 400 grit wet and dry paper powered by the hone to break the glaze. Something like this one would be fine:
https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Brake-Engine-Cylinder-Honing/dp/B07DCMY9NH?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80058254320539&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583657823611359&th=1
You need to know the thickness of the rings and if you look at the backside of the rod bearing it will say std. or oversize. Our rings were 1.5 mm top, 2.0 mm second and 4.75 mm oil ring space. The other size was 1.2 mm, 1.5 mm and 3 mm.
The rod bearing says STD. The mic says 1.58, 2.00 and 4.73. There's a little ridge on the outside of the first compression ring slot. Maybe that will clean up?
Only matters if i don't need to bore it out I guess. Did you guys have to bore to .040 or was it already there and you honed it to clean it up?
Scott, It was already .040.
I wouldn't use that piston. The skirt looks pretty scuffed up in the picture and what you described about the top ring land. If the scratches hone out you can find a single new piston like this one on Ebay, same as yours only coated or buy a single 1463 .50 Silvolite direct from Silvolite.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186675153206?_trksid=p2332490.c102020.m5276
Summit has this one and also Enginetech 3010 .50 interchanges:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s1463-5mm
Yes, new pistons are fairly inexpensive so i will replace it rather than reuse it. Here's what I'm thinking though, if it cant be honed and I need to go .040 over, then I'll need new pistons; correct? I have no experience evaluating the depth of the gouges as to whether they can be honed or if even boring 040 over will make it usable. I think I'll start with honing it first and maybe that will get it close enough that I'll be confident that boring will resolve the gouges; may even fix it completely. In my mind it's still possible the block may need to be replaced. Again, based on my zero experience dealing with damaged cylinders.
Scott, You will find out. If they are pretty much gone but not quite .040 will get rid of them.
OK, getting a Cylinder Hone. Thanks
Another alternative. Call Johnson machine in Olympia and ask them how much it would cost to install this sleeve and bore to 3.524. (89.5mm)
May be cheaper than going .040 and new pistons.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8528704&cc=1319622&pt=5312&jsn=626
Ok, I'm leaning towards removing all the pistons so I know if any other cylinders have issues. That way I know if re-sleeving #4 is all I need vs over- boring all 8.
So far I'm not seeing any issues, but there may be other broken rings and the compression test showed 130 lbs or so in multiple cylinders which doesn't seem great.
You want to remove them all anyways, you will have to hone them all if #4 cleans up. You will have to pull the crank and can look under a main bearing to check the size. Inspect everything especially big ends of rods. Probably had about 160 compression when new with that cam and rings are worn. Just bad luck #4 broke
I'm watching a bunch of videos on SBC rebuilds. Building courage to take it all the way down. What's the worst that can happen.
A lot I'm sure!
Thanks!
You'll be fine. We'll guide you.
Keep everything organized in the same order they were in the motor.
I've bagged and labeled each piston with its cap, bearings and nuts. 3 more pistons had broken rings but were somewhat intact. So the compression was down but not like #4. There is more gouging in those cylinders. I'll try honing #4 tomorrow, if it works I'll do them all. If not, the machine shop will get it for probable 040 bore.
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This doesn't look too good! Others have similar scoring but not as bad. All getting replaced so..
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Nothing left but the timing set, crank and cam.
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Tub of pistons anyone.
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Tiny metal particles got to the bearings too. Hope the mains are standard too. You will have to have the crank rod journals turned down at least .010. Custom Crank in Tacoma can turn the crank for you and tell them you want .001 oil clearance on the mains and .0015 on the rods. I wonder if they were cast rings? I'd get moly rings.
Whatever the rings were made of, they were junk. When its time to get rings, I'll not go cheap!
Scott, Overheating or detonation are the two main causes of broken rings. Too much timing advance, lower octane fuel, inadequate cooling system. Maybe you need a larger radiator, you shouldn't need four fans. A lot of guys use a 65 Mustang aluminum radiator and with high compression you need premium fuel.
It actually ran great after I solved some issues. Never overheated, never pinged or made any noises. When I got it it didn't do well in traffic on a hot day (not an issue here too often as you know Jim). It had vapor lock issues initially. I did a return fuel filter, a phenolic carb spacer and i had a hood louvered (aftermarket) . I vented the block better so the oil leaks might lessen. But in reality, you'd be surprised how well it ran in its obvious poor state. I expect a massive improvement. I never pushed this past 3000 RPM. It sounded great but i had a feeling..
I wonder if the previous owner refreshed the motor with the wrong thickness rings like in Jon's motor? 1.2 top ring in a 1.5 gap.and 1.5 second ring in a 2.0 gap. They may work for a while but the flexing will weaken them.
Jon's heads had nice beehive springs too, but unfortunately they used Chevy retainers meant for 7 degree keepers with the Buick 11 degree keepers and they may as well been welded to the valves.
Got the crank, cam and timing set removed. 3 of the bearings on the crank say STD, the first bearing on the front doesn't say STD, it has something stamped but doesn't look like a measurement. The middle bearing is different in that it has sides on it, it is stamped U STD. Wouldn't they all have to be the same?
What should I measure on the cam to see if it's useable. I'm assuming the height of the lobes compared to each other?
IMG_1945.png
Crankshaft is ready for a trip to the shop. Do I need to measure the journals?
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Scott, No need to measure, hopefully the crank shop will only need to take .010 or .020 off. There are larger oversize bearings available but hard to find and expensive. After the crank is ground you will know what size bearings to get. It is a 300 crank but 215 journal size. On the cam all the lobe heights should be close to the same. If not take the cam and lifters to Delta Cams in Tacoma to be refurbished. The middle bearing with the sides is the thrust bearing.
Lift at the cam when new: IN .305 EX .313
https://crower.com/printcamcard/?part_num=50233&x=0&y=0
Thanks Jim, I'll measure the cam lobes.
Scott, measure the width for the base circle then subtract from height for lobe lift. or just compare.
Lobe_Lift-3447560410.jpg
Jim, Ive read thru the posts here and I cant find the shop you guys used for the heads. Was it Buds? I think they're in Lakewood?
Scott, Buds went out of business so everything was done at Johnson Machine in Olympia.
Got it, Thanks!
Custom Crankshaft and Delta Cams are in Tacoma. Johnson Machine cleaned the block and heads, installed soft plugs, oil galley plugs, cam bearings, skimmed heads and block, installed helicoils. Heads received 3 angle valve job, bronze guide liners, Viton seals and SBC LT1 springs with Comp Cams 11 degree retainers. What did you find on the cam lobes? Have you tried honing #4?
Not yet, I ran out of WD40. I'm doing that tomorrow. I'm having issues getting the dip stick tube out. Soaking it with penetrant now. I'm taking the cam, lifters and crank to Tacoma this week. Going to Olympia soon after. I-5 has some work being done this week so Olympia probably after that is complete.
By the way who did the Jet Coat for you guys? Looks awesome!
Scott, wait until you get your cam back and take it with your block so they can fit the cam bearings. You can use a 7/16 drill bit to gage if the oil mods were done to the pick up passage in the block. Do you have the standard oil pump or the High Volume with spacer and longer gears? Jon used the TA back grooved front cam bearing and adjustable oil pressure relief valve. Jon had the Jet Hot done in Auburn.
https://www.performancecoatings.com/
So the pick up passage you're asking about is where the oil pickup tube connects to the block? I have to look at the oil pump, I had to look up where the oil pump was; never dealt with an oil pump until now. Lot of new things to deal with, but it is interesting and I love a project!
Appreciate the help!
Yep, stock passage is 7/16. Jon opened his to 1/2 and the matching hole in the front cover. Increases volume and makes the pump act like a bigger pump without adding stress to the cam and distributor gear that the longer gears of the High Volume pump does. We used the steel booster plate. I also add a hole in the oil pump to directly add oil to the back of the gears that helps idle oil pressure. Tight tolerance on fitting cover is important too.
So yes I'll wait to get the block and heads done until i get the cam and lifters done. That's a great thing to know. I'll look at the pump tomorrow and measure the holes. All the oil improvements will be done or verified that they're already done. I'd be surprised if they are already done; it was 2009 I think so
I don't know if that was a thing 16 years ago.
The Buick oiling mods goes back way farther than 16 years for the Buick V8 crowd. Dates waay back to the Nailhead days.
Carl. Yeah, Phil Baker schooled me around 1980. Another thing with Jon's motor the main oil holes were opened up to 1/4" and the bearing shell holes are 3/16" We used a soft jaw vice and drilled the bearings from the backside to 1/4" and just touched the other side to chamfer the burr. We used the 5/8" V6 oil pickup too.
I got the cam and lifters to Delta Cam and dropped the crankshaft at Custom Crankshaft whose owner was interesting to say the least. Top Tip; don't knock on his front door, go around to the back alley where his shop is.
Scott, I heard he was a character! He does good work though. Did you tell him you want .001 clearance on the mains and .0015 on the rods?
Yes I told him 001 on the rods and 0015 on the mains and I mentioned he did this to Jons Crank. He wrote down the info and fingers crossed he gets it right. I explained the motor is stroked and that it was a Buick 300 crank modified to work with the 215 rods and block. I was looking for a business; didn't realize it was a home business.
Scott, I think you mean the other way around. Did he say he thought it would clean up at .010 or .020?
You're right Jim, I mixed it up there, I actually read it off of a post from you that I printed and showed him so I would know what to ask for. He did say something about 10 and i agreed. My problem is I'm like a blind man asking for something i don't fully understand.
Well then let's just confuse you a little further shall we?
My one and only recommendation when talking about the MGB is to go with the Buick 300 as the engine of choice. The reasons are so many that it's burdensome repeating them every time so let me refer you to the Buick 300 sticky thread on the MGE engine swaps forum. If you don't know where that is you certainly need to find out.
I will repeat a few here however. First off it's a much better engine and more properly matches the vehicle size and weight even using the base engine which was a 2bbl iron head motor at 9:1 CR making 210hp. You can even make money swapping from the BOPR (215) since you can sell the used bellhousing for easily twice what a 300 (BOP) bell costs you. The high nickel block is so much more durable that running examples of the engine frequently have minimal cylinder wear even now after 60 years. Not infrequent to be able to use one with a simple clean-up.
It can save you a lot of money and give you a much better engine.
BTW, I heard that the original builder of your engine feels that detonation was the cause of your ring breakage, although he wouldn't know who would have been responsible for running it that close to the ragged edge. Apparently the first owner didn't baby the engine, but you never know who might try to advance the timing in an effort to get more mileage out of it.
Jim
Thanks Jim for the info, Are the 300 blocks around? I think I'm pot committed to rebuild this motor at this point, but the future might bring a different motor.
Is Ron Hopwood still around? I'd love to talk to him about the car! As far as running the car hard, I never took it over 3000rpm, never stressed the driveline (no burnouts etc). The guy I got it from Emil Zuccaro (San Diego) has passed so no info available from him. But he only drove it once and had it serviced to the tune of $10,000, then sold it. He forwarded the receipts. It never pinged once while I drove it. But someone could have thrashed it along its life since 2009. And we think it may have sat for a few years in a garage.
Comprehensive 300 Buick Build Thread
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/comprehensive-300-buick-build-thread.4463289/
I'm starting the first of the oil mods. Watched several videos and I'm a little worried about getting off center on that long one. Of course my luck, the engine hasn't had any of the mods done. Curious about the V6 oil pick up. Which one is recommended? Going out to get the proper 12 inch 1/2" bit and maybe one 2 sizes smaller. The long passage is less than 7/16".
Scott, you'll be fine. Go 7/16 first then 1/2. Gauge the depth and then tape mark the drill a little shorter. Where the pickup bolts use a 9/16 to chamfer and 5/8 to chamfer that. Do the matching hole in the timing cover 1/2 too. Do this 1/4 hole in the oil pump too. If you aren't using the booster plate you will have to sand the cover to make sure it is flat.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7075168&cc=1022252&pt=5576&jsn=647
The rockauto link above shows the 75-80 V6 pickup first design which is the right length for the 215 pan. I normally drill a little higher than this guy in the middle of the flat area.
This picture better shows the extra oiling hole:
8A6EBC35-EF82-471C-BB57-B0498F93568B.jpeg
Thanks Jim, Great stuff!. I ordered the V6 oil pickup. I am doing the hone job tomorrow, had a critter under the house that needed dealing with today. So I haven't even pulled the oil pump out of the housing yet. So, thats next.
Re: Buick 300
Quote...it's burdensome repeating...
I'll bet! Maybe you should give it a rest for a while.
When someone suffers misfortune, frankly I don't think it's very polite to tell them they've got an inferior model engine and they should replace it. Might even drive away people from our community. But since you brought up Buick 300, I'll tell you what I think.
In terms of performance or value, Buick 300 doesn't begin to compare to an LS engine. No contest.
On the other hand, in terms of cool factor the 300 doesn't begin to compare with 215. Again, no contest. Whereas the 215 has a fascinating and unique story, the 300 is just a footnote to the 215 story. The little 215 powered Jack Brabham to a Grand Prix championship in 1966 whereas no other American V8 has ever won a GP. A 215 powered Dan Gurney to Rookie-of-the-Year honors in the Indy 500. The 300 has essentially no racing pedigree at all. The 215 appeared in many other storied cars: Reventlow, McLaren/Elva, Zerex Special, Apollo, several Lotus models, etc. Countless other applications: speed boats, motorcycles, dune buggies. Literally thousands of show cars (e.g. T-buckets) because it's a shiny little gem of an engine.
I disagree with another of your basic premises. The 215 is
understressed in an MGB. Back when I built up mine, I was unaware of all the oil mods people talk about now, so I only did the most common sense things: I fitted a new Buick V6 pump and front cover in lieu of worn-out parts and I've run good oil. Nonetheless, my 215 has served me reliably for 34 years. My 215 has powered me across 46 of the United States and two Canadian provinces so far, yet I've never been obliged to service anything below the head gaskets. People on this forum have seen me drive my engine hard, including track days. I've lent it to a lot of people. It's gotten lots of high rpm use. The difference between a sportscar and a muscle car is lightness. The 215 is a proper sportscar engine.
And then there's the availability issue. GM made about three quarters of a million 215s, and people horded them because they're distinctive. They're not hard to find. Then, consider the Rover variants. Obviously most Rover V8 parts interchange with 215. Rover Discoverys are far more plentiful than 1964 Buick LeMans donors anywhere I've ever lived.
Thank you Curtis, it's good when people offer differing viewpoints. To be fair the 215 isn't a BAD engine though it does have it's flaws and it did get better during Rover's stewardship. The most recent ones were usually quite good although flaws did sometimes appear. My perspective is just that the 300 offers an alternative that in many cases is arguably better. What you've done here of course is back me into a corner where I have to explain myself so thanks for that one. You got me there.
Buick made about half a million 300s so scarcity isn't really that much of an issue, although insisting on the one with the alloy heads makes it much harder to find when the base engine is really the better choice in many ways. Everyone was enamored of the aluminum engine when the weight difference really was so small. Honestly, how much difference does 100lbs make to a 2400lb car? For Curtis quite a lot, but for most of the rest of us hardly anything at all. 310 ft/lbs of torque at 2400rpm however does make a considerable improvement in all around drivability and 210hp is most welcome from an engine that sips regular. How over or understressed the engine is depends entirely on it's state of tune and treatment, but an iron block, even a thinwall one like the Buick is inherently stronger and more durable. As for the LS, how much time and money do you want to spend? Great engine, but not an easy swap. I would also argue that a 300 built to the same standards as an LS can give it a run for it's money. The parts are available to do that. And have you looked at the weight of an LS? They ain't light.
As the bigger sister to the 215 in the Buick stable the differences are fewer than the similarities. Except for the more common BOP bellhousing and generic GM starter mounting (think Chevy SAE mini starter) the blocks are near identical. My opinion is that saying one has a racing history while the other does not might be a bit disingenuous but whatever, the 340 and 350 got all the kudos and the 350 has a pretty rich history so it's kinda similar to saying the 265 or the 307 has no racing history. Yeah maybe but they are still SBCs and are still good engines.
The 300 just happens to fit a particular niche that makes it extremely suitable for the B. Let's discuss deck heights. We all know the 215 is a bolt-in swap after '74.5 and not particularly difficult before that. The 300 does have 9/16" taller decks making it a little taller and wider. I think it comes out to 1/2" and 3/4" but the stock intake's carb flange is reputed to be the same height as the 215's. It also is a bolt-in swap and we've seen stock unmodified hoods on CB cars to prove it. The 340, not so much. With a deck 1-3/16" taller than the 215 it's just too big. So the 300 is the largest engine you can simply drop into an unmodified MGB and bolt up. And where the 215 as well as the Rover variants were well known for a variety of ills all during the line's history, some of which were never remedied during production, the 300 always had a sterling reputation for reliability and durability.
Give me that in a 210hp engine with that much torque that I can buy in good running condition for sometimes as little as $350 and I call that a bargain. That's what I paid for the 'mule' in my car right now and it pulled a perfect leak down test when I bought it about 4 or 5 years ago.
But again, I do respect Curtis' position, he is extremely weight conscious and that hundred pounds makes a real difference to him. For his purposes there is really no other option that I am aware of that would let him have the car he wants. I respect that.
Scott has his own set of criteria and a broken engine. Sometimes the best path forward does not include staying the course, even if it is a fancy schmancy stroker engine. Personally I like stroker engines. I have a 346cid 300 on the engine stand waiting to go in the car. That one will challenge a few LS equipped Bs. Probably won't get every one but that was never the goal anyway.
Jim
I appreciate the perspectives offered here. I'm the least knowledgeable in this conversation. But, due to circumstance I have a 215.
That's what's sitting on my engine stand today, so thats what's getting rebuilt. Onward and upward!
Thanks!
No harm in that. Also no harm in reading the 300 sticky thread. It's a pretty good read, I did that again yesterday. Some of what is there does apply to your 215 stroker.
Jim
I love the little short stroke 215. Easy 150-170 hp. My 215 plus the T-5 is 60 lbs lighter that the 1800 with OD trans.
I do like the variety we have in this group. It would be a bit boring if we all showed up at the British V8 meet with the same engine.
As soon as I went to the long 1/2" bit this happened. I am screwed. I've read you can insert a copper tube to repair but then the hole would have to be even bigger to get the 1/2 " diameter. I thought about trying to keep going with upward pressure, but decided to stop and regroup. If I get it drilled out to the junction at 1/2" can it be repaired (Tig) so to maintain the larger diameter ? I started with 7/16 short bit and gradually got it at 1/2 " Then started with the long bit and immediately drilled thru. Can a machine shop drill this out and repair the carnage/ That's the question.
IMG_1957.png
Scott, I've always used the short drill bit first and look down with a light every couple inches and you can see the ridge and if you are going straight. when you are all in with the short bit you have a pilot hole to use the long bit the rest of the way. Machine shop can drill a straight hole and install a brass tube and you can have the outside Tigged or you could braze the hole up.
Once I got about 5 inches in I thought it would go straight. If the machine shop can get it so the hole is 1/2 inch with an insert, I guess it will be good.
Scott, maybe you went crooked with the 7/16"? It'll be fine.
Once they get a straight hole a little under 9/16" a tube like this gives .530 ID.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186431738689?_skw=9%2F16%22+OD+12%22+long+brass+tubing&itmmeta=01JVXDKMG1GFSSXDEH2MKRETAS&hash=item2b68329341:g:In8AAOSw-atmOaS-&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAABAFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cxvcVvTLvf73BqYfo27IWTzEG9cja8Vchx32cyfx30ht%2FT7dUJsSED3OfcYKtmNmkWU8FScNLbND%2FTyA0Vnl01HKCKLkRzk80vSQLOggPSpcfTeIa6i7JumK2yCJW%2FeD%2F1WLPaXIDwYd1tavlJSGDcuxPpjDzt7vmcvUJ7rkSEUOYvdOdBxFEZzktIlAOVVl2A34YZUykFWvhth%2B%2FvdrvummoxKCpFYKmYqAfxe6JZZO9nu8Cgiog6Dk9wf7YyaYJVVfr2OhfUfTh%2FQX6Dvfl9ZZc7h4ahrZ8CWPrhZYlqVdYga0BBA6COQOD8uUe5Sfc%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMksjOrd9l
That's about the worst breakout I've seen and is a great example of why I keep harping on the advisability of using a piloted bit. This is the risk you take when you don't go to the trouble of doing that when all it takes is a little quality time dressing the end of the bit into a pilot that will fit the existing hole. Now you have a problem, and because it broke out to the outside of the block it's a potential oil leak also. Can it be fixed? Yes. Is it a good idea to fix it? Maybe not. Bear in mind you are already at .040" overbore with scratches and you can't go past .060". The former builder of this engine says even .060" is risky. I wouldn't be the one to disagree with that. So you'll end up with dodgy cylinder walls, a dodgy suction galley, and known dodgy threads since it's a 215. I'd start looking for that 300.
Jim
Jim B, he is only .020 over. He shouldn't have an oil leak since the brass tube would go a ways past the breakout. The shop would reference off the original hole to drill straight. The outside would be Tigged or brazed to seal.
Ain't turning back now! Hopefully it can be fixed without breaking the bank!
I used the cylinder hone today just to see what improvement i could get. I did maybe 40 passes stopping and oiling every10 or so. The improvement was noticeable but nowhere near perfect which I expected. So, The machine shop can give it a try at 040 over and thats the most it will get. If that gets them smooth then we'll see if they can drill it out to 1/2" and what're ever is needed to get the copper insert in. The breakouts are about 6 inches in so that much would need to be a little larger to accommodate the insert I guess.
Scott, people have bored that out to 5/8, though 9/16 is more common. When the machine shop sets it up they will use a slightly smaller than 7/16, like the original hole and center, before they drill it larger. If you look down with a light you will see the point where the factory drilled the short hole and in the long hole. After the tube is pressed in, they just need to patch where you broke out. They will charge more for the brass tubing than the Ebay ad. You may want to ask them if you can supply the tube and they can install it.
I'm sure they will be able to go to .040. If they can you will want to order the pistons we did. Silvolite 1463c +1.0 oversize direct from Silvolite and we bought Hastings plasma moly rings from Summit. You won't know bearing sizes until the crank is done, but we used King bearings, I think from Summit too.
Thanks Jim, I will order the same parts when the block is ready, (Fingers crossed). 9/16 would probably accommodate the brass or copper insert. Appreciate the help!
Scott, No problem. Summit has those pistons too but in a six pack and you can get 2 singles. Same with the rings.
Is the spacer on the pump the D+D booster plate? I'm looking at the pictures of the oil port mod. The hole is oval which Ive read here somewhere. Once I know what I'm doing, I'll open it up per the instructions.
IMG_1960.png
I'm assuming the gears are supposed to slide off. They're not exactly sliding off, so I'll figure that out with a pair of pliers. The wear marks are bit concerning. I guess I'll be reading more about the pump before I go screwing it up.
IMG_1958.png
As a machinist I feel obligated to tell you that your shop guy isn't going to like that hole. It's crooked and it'll push the drill to the side. The only way to straighten it would be with an end mill that has a flat end so it doesn't follow the hole but an end mill long enough to reach past the breakout is just about going to have to be carbide to be stiff enough, otherwise it will also follow the hole. Even a carbide end mill will try to follow the hole a little, and the end mill itself is going to cost upwards of $100-200 and will most likely have to be bought specifically for this job. Once he gets past the breakout the standard long drill will work, assuming this is done on a milling machine.
You will have a void on the outside of the tube and it will have to be inserted with sealant. The potential for a leak will exist. Don't attempt to tig the breakout afterwards, you will probably melt the tube and burn the sealant. Better to fill the cavity with sealant. It should only have to resist a vacuum.
When I had a breakout (on an iron block) I made up a piloted drill with the flutes ground away so it could track the original hole to get back on center. This resulted in a snake like path meaning insertion of the tube was a bit challenging but the breakout was to the inside so there was no issue with leaking oil. A little air seepage could be tolerated if necessary but that engine developed fine oil pressure. I don't know if tube insertion is commonly done but hardware stores do carry thin wall brass tube assortments that can be used if the hole is the right size. But I wouldn't just assume that the machinist is prepared for this job. Anyway best of luck with it.
Jim
Jim B raises valid points. the machinist will have to decide how to proceed. On the oil pump, it looks like the High Volume with spacer that lets the longer gears stick through and is hard on the cam and distributor gear and front cam bearing. The booster plate is thinner and is a solid plate and the stock gears don't stick out that much. Jon had the High Volume pump too, and we replaced with these parts.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/buick,1963,skylark,3.5l+215cid+v8,1319622,engine,oil+pump,5564
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/buick,1963,skylark,3.5l+215cid+v8,1319622,engine,oil+pump+gear+thrust+plate+kit,10268
I looked up the melting point of brass and it is around 1700F! the brazing rod is only around 750F, so you would be fine there. You could have the machine shop do that too.
Well that is worrisome. I haven't reached out to the machine shop yet, but when I do I'll find out what they think. They may not want to touch it. I'm still not sure the gouges will come out with the .020 bore. I guess I'm going to find out. As far as the pump, if it's the high output one, I'll replace it. I watched a video of a guy replacing one and it was pretty interesting but not very simple. They used a shim from TA to get the right tolerances and checked using plastic-gauge. .
Thanks for the input guys!
Melting point really isn't the issue here, it's the thinness of the brass tube. Sort of like trying to tig something on top of a sheet of aluminum foil. Yeah you can tig it but at some point the arc is likely to jump to the tube and poke a hole in it or at the very least boil off some of the surface. That is going to contaminate the weld and make it porous. It'd be easier to just weld up the block and then redrill it. That thin section is going to melt out though so it'll be a long scar. It can be repaired, but compared to the cost of another block is it worth doing? That 300 block is looking a little more attractive. Or at least a late Rover. Even just another 215 block. But then maybe your stroker crank won't work with the Rover and it's cool to say you have a stroker, even if it's a 215/266. I just hate putting money into questionable hardware. It took me decades to learn my lesson though so I really have no excuse to talk, I stayed married to the 215 for much, much too long before jumping ship for the iron blocks. You'll never have a better excuse to do the same, unless somebody just gives you an engine and how often does that happen? Still, most folks are at least a little resistant to change and I understand that. But I've never seen anybody replace a 300 with a BOPR. Why would they when the engine just doesn't go bad?
Jim
So, what did we figure is the weight difference? Is it comparable to the iron 4 banger they came with? I'm not against using a 300 if the 215 is not worth fixing. Maybe I can part it out at that point. Unfortunately I have the crank getting serviced and the cam is getting reqround, So, I'm already in a hole. Once I get the crank and cam back , I'll be reaching out to the machine shop. If they think it's a waste of time and money, I certainly wont move forward with this block.
Scott, I think the 300 with the 64 only aluminum heads and intake is only about 60 lbs heavier but I think you would have to change to the T5 transmission as there is no GM bellhousing for the Rover LT77 transmission. You can reuse your motor mounts and headers and it uses the same design front timing cover, distributor and oil pump.
With the alloy heads and intake the 300 is 50lbs heavier than the B series 4 banger. With iron heads and intake it is 100lbs heavier. That represents the biggest bargain as you can pick up an iron head 300 very cheap and they had 9:1 compression. TR6 spring spacers can be used to set ride height and swaybar size used to get neutral steering. All this info and much more is in the 300 sticky thread: (The iron heads also breath a little better btw.)
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/comprehensive-300-buick-build-thread.4463289/
Your reground cam will work fine in the 300 as they are essentially the same engine. Come to think of it, so would the crank should you need it. You can also fit a 350 (Buick) crank though that is more involved. But with a base line of 210hp and 310ft/lb that should be on down the road somewhere maybe.
Jim
The mains on Scott's crank were turned down 200 thou to fit the 215 block. If he had a late Rover block the mains would not have needed turning.
Forgot to mention the cam would work.
Thanks guys! So, If I got an iron 300 block; can I get alloy heads or is that a problem or really expensive? Will my cam add anything to the stock 300 output?
Clearly I'm over my head here.
Scott, That cam dynoed 300HP at the wheels in Mike Moor's car. I think he had the stock 64 only aluminum heads and intake with the Elelbrock carb you have. The iron heads have larger ports and valves and would make even more power.
https://www.britishv8.org/MG/MikelMoor.htm
Last time I looked for a set of alloy 300 heads they were going for something over $300 a set on ebay when they showed up, undoubtedly more now. That's a bolt-on swap for the iron heads. If the pistons/rods get replaced as in a rebuild or stroker, the late Rover or TA heads can be used with some tig work in a couple of corners to fill small voids that don't quite get sealed off. The late Rover heads are heavier than the 300 heads and the TA heads are heavier than the late Rover heads. An iron head is 17lbs heavier than the stock 300 head so the weight savings with an alloy intake is only 34lbs. Meaning the iron head engine with the alloy intake is 84lbs heavier than stock. We are well into the range where the weight is unimportant unless you are racing. It's more than made up for by the power output. Buick enthusiasts realized this almost immediately and along with the larger port and valve size there was little incentive to swap for the earlier heads.
The task is to find that donor 300 in the first place. It usually takes a dedicated and intelligent search. It isn't to be found in a scrap yard that empties the bins every 5 years. But with a half-million made, they are out there. The ideal scenario is finding a 20- or 30-something who is building a Tribute GS using Granny's Regal. Those aren't uncommon. Also Buick forums help. Then there's the old car magazines, (Can't recall that one name that is so big online and at meets), Heck I've even called TA to get the phone numbers of regional junkyards that hoard old Buick parts. That last one might cost a bit more but is a pretty reliable source.
With that done the next thing depends on what you got. Can be as little as a clean-up in some cases or as much as a full rebuild in others. I'd try at least to lean towards the first. Any Buick 300 under 50k miles is going to be almost new inside and those do exist. With proper care, modern oils and fuels these old engines can give 1/4M miles of service due to the high nickel content of the block and heads.
Jim
300 HP would be nice! I'm assuming the oil mods aren't needed on the 300?
Thanks Jim! So, if I find the 300 i would still need the bell and a T5 tranny right? And would probably have to shorten the drive shaft or lengthen. It's seems that finding a 215 short block would be easier. What has to be done on a 215 block to make my 300 crank work? I'm thinking of all the changes needed to get the 300 (if I found one) to work VS finding a 215 short block and making it work with my crank, not to mention I have the Olds heads which have the extra bolt holes.
I'm in a holding pattern until the cam and crank are done. But all the info is helpful!
I believe oiling mods are recommended for all of the old school Buick V8 engines.
You would need your rear seal adapter and if a Buick 215 you would need to tap the 6th bolt holes (rocker mounting) and the four small steam holes on each side using your head gasket as a template. On the 300 you are right. The best bell is the GM V6 H body that was originally a cable clutch. Pop up on Ebay now and then.
I don't know of anybody who has drilled and tapped the Buick deck for the extra Olds head bolts. Might be a bit thin there, good idea to drill a small pilot hole first to see if there is enough metal. At least that wouldn't ruin the block. You'd be a Pioneer and that carries a risk. An Olds block avoids this risk, or Buick heads. Either one is going to need the oiling mods, and again, please use a piloted bit to avoid this problem. It's easy enough to make one from a standard bit so there really is no excuse not to. It takes all the risk out of the operation.
The desired cable operated bell (which allows use of an external slave) usually costs about $125 off ebay. Make sure you get the clutch fork. (Possible to use an S10 fork but requires mods) If your present setup uses the HTOB (likely) you can use any BOP bell, even the one with dual starter humps, just have to slice off the one not needed. Usually about $75-100, occasionally less. You can sell your existing 5 speed and bell for enough to cover the cost of the T-5 and the replacement BOP bell. Likely more. The T-5 is not necessarily any better but also no worse. Might not shift as smoothly, could be a little stronger, has no internal oil pump to fail, fits the tunnel easier. Not sure what has to be done with the driveshaft, possibly just change the yoke.
If your existing crank is from a 300 it will fit another 215 block as is. That also means your flywheel will work with any 300 you use. If you have a mini starter and it's in good shape you can sell it for what a new SBC (SAE) mini starter will cost, possibly more.
I don't know what sort of seal adapter you have on the 215. Drop-in Viton 2 piece seals are available for the 300, they require the hash marks to be removed from the seal journal on the crank.
I have heard of replacing only the lower rope seal half and getting good results. Makes sense to me. If the engine is otherwise sound the oil suction galley can be drilled while on the engine stand, the cam swapped out, new timing gears, replace the lower rope seal, install a viton or neoprene front seal, grind or redi-sleeve the damper, set minimal oil pump end gap, fit a V6 (5/8" tube) pickup and you are good to go. HF sells a cheap leak down tester that is worth getting to check out the donor engine with.
The Olds heads came in 3 flavors depending on compression ratio. You can cc the chambers to see which ones you have or someone here may know the casting numbers. Only the 10.25 and 11:1 heads are desirable really but the 8:1 ones are by far the most common. You need to know which ones yours are. Sometimes engines got built with the LC Olds heads and the LC Buick pistons due to availability, the result was about a 6.5:1 CR. A usable engine but not a good one.
Again it depends on what you find as a donor engine. The right engine can greatly simplify your job. BUT if you have a 300 crank now, that flywheel is not going to fit a Late Rover or BOPR no matter how fine it is otherwise and a new one will cost around $500 and maybe more.
A complete engine with a good leak-down and decent oil pressure (can be run on the engine stand long enough to check it.) is a much better starting point than a bare block.
Jim
Jim B, The flywheel is custom and only works with the 300 crank in the 215 block. The rear seal adapter uses the 300 rubber seal in a spot where there are no hashmarks. Both Jon's and Scott's are Buick blocks drilled and tapped for the extra bolts. Probably done at the Olds factory. He has the 2 barrel heads and the same GM V6 pistons that Jon had. One thing I noticed is those pistons give about 10.3 compression with the composite gasket and it looks like Scott had the steel shim which would bump the compression even higher, close to 11 to 1. Buick block is identical except lack of the threaded holes and 4 small steam holes on upper block deck
buick215.jpg
MichaelYoung-BC-4053003563.jpg
The desirable Monza Skyhawk V6 bellhousing. Note the pivot on the other side like Ford and downward angle where the other bells go straight out into the tunnel. I would cut off the driver side starter hump.
monzaskyhawkv6bell.jpg
Mike Moor's setup with that bellhousing, S10 clutch fork, throwout bearing and Nissan slave. We are using a slightly larger Toyota slave on Jon's setup.
https://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,44728,page=2
toyotaslave.jpeg
Scott, since you have a 3.0 rear gear a 93-2000 Camaro V6 T5 with the 3.75 first would work fine.96-2000 has ITOB. It has the Ford pattern though instead of GM. The Chevy V8 T5's are getting scarce. This old thread of mine shows an easy way to fit the Ford pattern T5:
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/ford-pattern-t5-to-chevy-bellhousing.2495913/
It seems that just getting another olds 215 short block and moving on is going to be the easiest and least expensive option. If i found that nice 300 engine I fear that the cost of everything involved will be far greater than picking up a good 215 short block. I have all the parts sitting here except the crank and cam which are being sorted at 2 shops. It doesn't help that I'm learning on the fly here and putting this thing back together will be far easier that starting over with a different engine.
I Emailed Brian Macmillan in Seattle. He used to have a large assortment of 215 and 300 stuff. Maybe he'll get on this thread?
Thanks guys!, I think I saw Brians stuff in the classifieds and PM'd him. If he has any of those engines or blocks, that would be sweet. I changed the rear ring and pinion to 343 gear ratio. I still have the 300 set up. I was thinking the 300 was why it wasn't barking the tires on spirited starts. I was wrong. The gear ratios in the LT77 aren't great I've heard and going with a different tranny has been mulled over. But, this tranny works fine and to save costs I would delay that change if possible. What are the chances there's an Olds 215 block or a Buick with the 6th head bolt sitting around? Fingers crossed Mr. McMillan has something I can use.
Scott, Actually the machine shop can drill and tap and helicoil the 6th bolt hole. Maybe you should Email Johnson Machine with the picture of the breakout and ask them what they think. The more I think about it, may be easier to Tig a piece of aluminum tubing to patch and just make a straight 1/2" hole. You know the later Rover and the Buick 300 only use 4 bolts per cylinder. The 6 that Olds uses is great but was meant for Turbocharging, A lot of guys just leave the bottom bolts on the Buick just snug or leave them out completely. Another alternative block is the 3.5 Rover, pretty much the same as the 215 Buick .If you use the Olds heads you still need the steam holes. You could even put threaded inserts in the Olds rocker stands and bolt your heads right on the Buick block.That is pretty much the Buick setup.
OK, thanks Jim. I'll reach out to the machine shop. It's good there are some options. If my block can be fixed, that would simplify everything.
Probably so. I didn't realize you had the custom flywheel. The shop should be able to do a repair on the breakout. Might even be able to straighten out the hole. Worth asking about.
Jim
I sent a picture to Johnson Machine and got word back that they don't do any welding and they wouldn't be able to fix the break out. At least I didn't drive down there for nothing. They also said they are backed up and have a waiting list. They aren't doing any assembly work due to the backlog. So, on to plan B.
Scott, There has to be a good welding shop in your area. You could call these guys:
https://www.kitsapmuffler.com/Automotive-Services/Fabrication-Welding
I have heard good things about this machine shop:
https://www.yelp.com/biz/action-machine-shop-shoreline?override_cta=Request+a+consultation
Seattle Autosport does a lot of work on Rover's.
Kitsap muffler referred me to DJs Welding in Gorst. Talked to him and he's willing to give it a shot. No guarantee , but he seemed to believe it was worth a shot. I'm cleaning the area with acetone before I take it over to him in the next couple of days. Action Machine were helpful but I dont think were interested in drilling it back out. They can bore it for me I'm sure but he was quick to state they were not 215 experts.
Scott, For a Machine shop try Pacific Engine and Machine in Tacoma. Here is a video of their shop work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpWekDheOrU
Thanks Jim, I'm calling them tomorrow or Monday if their closed.
Cleaning with acetone is not likely to be sufficient. Better to have them bake the block and burn out the oils. It'll need to be cleaned up anyway and you'll get a much better weld. Any oil at all will cause porosity.
Jim
Do machine shops have a way to burn off the oil residue? Or do they boil them?
Scott, Watch the video link on Pacific Engine and Machine I sent above, Shows the process. You could use your Mapp torch to heat the area that needs to be welded. The welder might preheat to do it before he Tigs it,
I watched the video and the baking process is what Jim B is recommending before welding up the breakout. So, I'll see what the shop can do for my block, maybe they'll be equipped to do the repair. they're closed today of course, so Monday I'll call them!
Thanks
I took the block to Johns Specialty Services AKA (Pacific Engine and Machine). They may have changed names or ownership. John was very knowledgable and felt he could clean the block and do the breakout repair as well as all the honing , boring etc. Drilling the oil passage the rest of the way to 1/2" is the questionable part. He did say it would require a special type of bit. They are going to do my heads as well. I didn't mention Heli-coiling the head bolt holes, but will get with him on that. Haven't heard back from the Cranky crankshaft guy yet.
Scott, Good news! It is hard to find a machine shop that doesn't have a backlog.
I'm finding that out. John said he would want the rods and new pistons at some point. He was going to hone or bore to .030 over and see if the scored cylinders clean up. Go to .040 if need be. Crank, cam and lifters should be ready soon. Complete assembly would be up to me as they aren't doing that currently. My problem is when you haven't done engine assembly before, you don't even know what questions to ask. Making assumptions about the various technical aspects without any experience has bit me before. Of course there's the community here that has helped guide me through it to this point, which I appreciate. That decision will come later.
Scott, We can guide you through assembly. Let us know what oversize for pistons and bearings you need and I'll give you links, Most from Summit, some from Rockauto or Ebay. Your engine is almost identical to Jon's, so follow that thread on MGExperience too. I'd order the TA back grooved front cam bearing too. Their site is down so you would have to call them.
Scott, On the pistons and rods. 4 have the dimple in the middle of the rod facing forward (2, 4, 6 and 8) and 4 have the dimple facing back (1, 3, 5 and 7) in the block. Top notch in piston always go forward. That way the oil squirt hole in the parting line of the rod faces the cam on both sides. You'll need these too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266176999322?_skw=ring+compressor+and+installer&itmmeta=01JWXZ0CWY4DDGYKS90CB8R4PZ&hash=item3df962af9a:g:LtgAAOSwPiZlfbrA&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAABAFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fL%2FX4wBXJOSgnsTYgbFl4PKL3nY3Tm4qMRWU9JtlU7EdTwsPs7rV2AvWHF2felWRQv%2BtvJuipVum2C8ExtBWFqBXBuMnvEk4jJqxm1RyiTOwxYc1EmdCu0Nh4tgoVQW2iE5czQ7GiQcWG4bSjUH8Kgu2g3t91S5EQT3En3MPZqzt7qgUf5bRZaX6St7RqJ1yGEAf8WRaSvXTGyCFui5KrV7dwbYSgsoKF4pmy8uVll1SX0Nf7EgZBCqh0J%2FljbEXLbEx%2BLt4fENF%2BLm%2Fyq4ihGvHhxDV7%2BtbRYrh9vaKt%2BCIAbGzJYy2iFp7iszhnMUvE%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMrM-Bv-dl
OK Jim, I'll order that piston install kit, and the back grooved front cam bearing.
Thanks
John got the breakout repaired and was able to drill it out the rest of the way. He got it bored to 030 over and now needs the cam bearings and pistons and rods. So, based on the bore now, what pistons and rings would you guys recommend? Where do you guys get your cam bearings? After talking to John, its becoming more obvious I dont know squat about this process.
Scott, Highly recommend the TA front cam bearing. Here is the set. You would bring him the cam to fit too. He should do soft plugs and oil galley plugs too. I'll give you links for the pistons and moly rings.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195517462022?fits=Make%3ABuick&_skw=buick+215+v8+cam+bearings&epid=115025901&itmmeta=01JXN5EKCBHJAC35V9HX46N3N2&hash=item2d85bfb606:g:bN4AAOSw5JdjmdXz&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA8FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fbdOWZDX5w8HPwg1xyGRZ2BOZ1P5VFzobR9GPdcGKxuuYejCYtSMcWwA%2Fq6cr%2FCaoqo6psXAS3YdraeZpDb%2F%2BckHGvAj1bbJ82wxYTYCyV3uTZyp70Cs7v6c%2F9fLsEpzUI9ZJTUVt51Lq8prvhvka8PM2Gxg76bLAHROBK55zn3DPQ%2FUkxlUJNSoT0ymY7t47zwNyB5ez6hvciVb81d%2FZE4gOP0HAJfMJdH%2B8uCcXwSBefidUp%2FwhKiFqerRp0kd1pAnXC2e4Ddbxu7vIvmXNd8YJU6U8OIub963oNwgK81g%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR662uqXtZQ
I
Rings x8:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hsn-2m5632s030
Pistons 6pack +2:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-1463c-75mm
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s1463c-75mm
Jim I ordered the pistons and rings. I already got the double grooved front cam bearings from TA. Also ordered the rest of the cam bearings you listed. Can't thank you enough!
Scott, That's what this site is all about! Pick up some Clevite Bearing Guard for assembly lube on the bearings and I like a thin coat of Moly lube (grease in a tube) on the cam lobes and bottom of lifters, valve tips and pushrod tips and cam and distributor gears. Go real light with it. Remember to tell the machinist 4 of the rods face one way and 4 the other. 1, 3, 5, and 7 the dimple/bump in the middle of the rod faces back and on 2, 4, 6 and 8 faces forward.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256707773449?_skw=clevite+bearing+guard&epid=1311821981&itmmeta=01JXN9G94FGRKWS3DX7WACM2PR&hash=item3bc4f9c409:g:q7UAAOSwMTpmRlCr&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fAAy%2F9TY3R3cB%2F0O5Qh4VPYBY%2F91OlXHLka8n5j5IEVw80Z6HkF07Hu4w3tDtXluLZlc%2FWly9e2B5sVqG6btMJk%2FmWW8zlmRcofsno%2BJ0IvlzN9T%2FTB%2Fvpa6nfFg8N1ZYJS8J95lVHaDi6jydZXACoru0Iwp31D7MgfmqsKqTOraJizEJHS1daDrASBhc4wyFjodi%2FwgXUdYE9fTdPVi3fPnZ6YGtvpVrxBV5UplZXGVktpQbRo%2B9hWyVf0ZGb0F4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR66SwantZQ
https://www.ebay.com/itm/116433425790?_trksid=p2332490.c101875.m1851&itmprp=cksum%3A1164334257902d5c46d589014d68909c8b35166928d6%7Cenc%3AAQAKAAABcG96wQ16jds4VFcrhy1F3d4mbwZUJI9Fs%252BgdXYAHIzlX2e3YaNh7x%252BEnKA3G%252BCqSl1Xn4McfcWFK1GytmS2qxJ87mtE8Gm3iR1Ja4WBwh0hNHJrJx3Ki5mp04ow4CO7lP%252BooCybZDDU%252BbbSwmg7CbTin%252BBzBzbCYVnbjvyQAHu6--HI4MB7SvJl5IJqlyvomgoLMlgT6qAJzX0SANJhty2cjuyvfBGfNNDjlPBxPGOHkVpDimkhHjAAgQ8KZMofIP%252BZEybXiFZKmLL3%252FyPUMNZZ4JMHKMi8rtDsuPH6DuzI05zZBoBNmfmN8DW5qFXAsvS2PVt6xgEVeTt7xr1vtDwUeVf1y4pJlZHq%252BUO2dceHWQtgf%252BKSkHp6c5NDW6I0Jbhn5q88wipiAhEJV5qe1lQxlNAjYOk2lXF5nxCpcbsCavJCLP1vyBK4mnwZKw2RSSGt0y9laaeAx6yd5%252FoBeYAzGrFzpKi%252FmrSqERZLJZrf4%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2332490&epid=1353888099&itmmeta=01JXNBJDJM2G9Z1JW2Y0WNN1J6
We used one of Jon's adjustable pushrods to figure optimum length and ordered these new pushrods. His lifters have the oiling holes and we are using pushrod oiling. Your build and his is almost identical and they would work with shaft oiling too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/276602133654?_skw=oldsmobile+v8+pushrods&itmmeta=01JXN9Q5HHA1Y1Q3P32Z5J11W8&hash=item4066c59c96:g:XSEAAOSw~b9mw7~e&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fRPO30HFNmvaBsq9bHIf%2FE9LNXDXukdGSzIxX%2B23VASKgm%2B5q%2BWQVoU%2FSh7R0mkFeucZRIlxq%2F4VcGqLA30uRxoLo5RX7e%2FHkALYjI95q3tN1iLWdLQ7%2FuW9yjL922kDccMDodzDvIvaZQ1bhdenWmND9rbgdYo%2F4TMQ7C7ea6NqPSpVJTUoz1F8Yc7hEFS%2FPiVh%2Bl3OFW%2FkKVD20Uzt2RYmdmVdanCjDMBX4UTZpdcuA0co89srXd2A%2F6jgF9i7Q%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_bY3KntZQ
Are you going to have the machinist skim the block deck and heads?
I'm going to ask him to do the soft plugs and oil galley plugs; (are these freeze plugs, what are these things) I'm taking my heads to the same shop when I get the Crank back (he's backed up at his shop). The cam and lifters are done and we're taking those to John as well. The pistons, rings and cam bearings are ordered (we ordered the rings, but they aren't scheduled to ship for 2 weeks). Don't see them available anywhere else quicker than Summit.
Soft plugs and freeze plugs are the same thing. Machinist won't need the lifters, just the cam. On Jon's heads they cut the guides for Viton seals and a 3 angle valve job.
Scott, when you get your crank back, you will know what undersize bearings to order. I'll get you the links. You won't have to wait for the rings, the machine shop just needs the pistons to know how much clearance to hone to. Plus, install new pistons on old rods.
For Scott;
Soft plugs, freeze plugs, core plugs, welch plugs, are different names for same part.
Thanks Carl!
I got the crank back today. Custom Crank radiused the oil galleys while I waited. Also got the cam and lifters back and delivered the cam and the heads to John. The rings are backordered as well as 2 of the 8 pistons. The rings ship after 7/7, 2 of the pistons don't ship until the first week of July. After talking to John at Johns Specialty Services (Tacoma), I so appreciate his attitude and his understanding that I don't really know what the process is here. Never rebuilt a V8 before. He knows I have guys helping me who are well versed in this motor and he's been great. He's doing the valve job and decking the mating surfaces. He's going to do inserts as apposed to helicoils on the block; thats his preference. Gotta get my shop area cleaned up while the machining process happens.
Thanks for the help!
Scott, What is the undersize of the rod and main bearings?
He wrote the numbers on the end of the crank.
IMG_2013.png
Looks like .010 on rods and mains.
Rod bearings:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7012272&cc=1319622&pt=5212&jsn=627&optionchoice=2-10u-0-1
Main bearings:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kgb-mb589am010
We had to drill out the main bearing holes to 1/4" from the backside and just touch the other side with 5/16" while spinning to chamfer the sharp edge.
Thanks Jim,ordered!
Jim, where did you get the adjustable pushrod to get the length calculated? The current ones are 8 3/16", so Ill need ones slightly longer now? By the way, the pushrods all appear clogged.
Jon had all 16 adjustable. Stock didn't have oil holes in the pushrods. Oiled from a hole in the block through the head to the rocker shaft, Stock lifters didn't have holes for oiling. Since he had lifters with the oiling holes we decided to use hollow pushrods and pushrod to rocker oiling. I used an adjustable pushrod to adjust for length on the heel of the cam to fit snug where you could still rotate the pushrod but not push down on the lifter plunger. I then add one full turn for preload/about .050. I marked the top of the valve stem with a marker and turned it over a couple of times and the wear mark was centered. Stock length was 8.233 so I ended up 8.248. A lot of variables affect pushrod length. Higher lift of cam and valve grind, head and block milling, regrind of cam and lifters. If your motor which is similar to Jon's didn't have a ticking at idle your OK with the stock length but the lifter has over 1/8" of travel and as things wear it might.
OK, so it looks like there are holes in the push rods, but maybe it's just the way they look. My engine began to have lifter noise at start up. It went away after 30 seconds or so. My push rods are approx 8.250 using a tape measure. If hollow tubes are better, thats the way I'll go. My lifters have the oiling hole too. I'm guessing my cam has a higher lift than Jons which may mean mine will need to a little shorter than his rods. I'm looking at TA's website and they don't show a 215 specific adjustable pushrod but they show hybrid pushrods that has the oiling thru the rod. 5/16" OD.
Scott, You are slightly higher lift on either the intake or exhaust, can't remember without looking it up. The hollow pushrods are lighter and stronger than solids. The Buick 215 had a separate oil hole from block to head by a hold down bolt. The Olds had a weird head bolt that had a slot in it. We changed it to a grade 8 bolt. You have to run a wire through the rocker oiling hole to make sure it is clear. Both motors had 3/8 ball ends instead of 5/16 which are more common. There are slightly shorter pushrods than what we used. I think they were 8.245.I always look for the best price. I'll try to find a link.
Scott, these are only .003 shorter than Jon's but will work fine.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/235781933561?_skw=olds+v8+pushrods&epid=174691580&itmmeta=01JY7AWBJTJ4N7F4RW2FZ8YM7F&hash=item36e5b2c9f9:g:7Z8AAOSwb~dnCYVc&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA8FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cu5u6KoD4ki49N87UxShWBvF39Z3HqWJdOYKTLcqz%2BxJBareh%2BWieiDo9KwMY6Lcm1mEXdUKmhivh2mNTbj0JBwU3rqXrk1zpDpSZKIlUNXAHJaI%2FP5koxRsYk6QN6ZqT8d%2FCD6ClF6bnrnS6Y4f%2BTKpvdJQfy86v18IImBdxhBeShazwUh6RIK9rEJbp743TCOLoxHuGspNBvW5YU0aOchIqUWVCZD7U1aMVJbrLGw6vraK8Nu75MJOpeQwF4rbnoHu9x0s2DzEvXB4hh2dGhx2XDb%2Fg%2BEd4hsEEGgIMq2g%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8y58erxZQ
Also, tell your machinist in the front of the block the left oil galley plug can't be installed too deep or it will block the oil galley to lifters on that side. TA sells a set for the front with a short plug for that side.
https://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1519
Stock replacement 8.236 solid pushrods, note the price. The hollow ones are only .009 longer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/146416221339?_trksid=p4481478.c101506.m1851
Thanks Jim! I'll be talking to the John on Monday, so I'll mention the oil galley issue. Do I need to wait for the finished block and heads before I measure for the pushrods?
Yep, I think the ones I linked above would work fine though.
https://www.amazon.com/Speedmaster-PCE401-1005-Universal-Compatible-Pushrod/dp/B07WVWYZT8?crid=20ECQ6ANRGEQZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Bs0nUL07kdpONBr337hKxCShccHxSO_sEz5CHVAr_6UQpGNU7Og3MiXuZF0f60iyaZz2ST8G6MdW9lWtV5fcqaIPWYFtYdTjxnL5JQtjMZ1O-9t9lp_MTPYgD4_D-sLZAmWHUyal7S6V4LNJ6iaLEZSFtQpRz69m2n55Fiz43_VJLF9Ut_QJPNKaUX246Pbk_7r1fen7bUxxgTHcDFXe263XgUY4vY5zPzDolY-o2C4GQcObNGo1c3GbcLNScKSe.8pDvkvTFCmTadTdKIEj-rn80bnO35eIrp0HN5zwXLj4&dib_tag=se&keywords=7703-1+pushrod+checker&qid=1750468308&s=automotive&sprefix=7703-1+pushrod+checker%2Cautomotive%2C118&sr=1-42&xpid=QR4m09_fATtGE
Looked up your cam and IN lift is the same as Jon's, EX lift is .501 so .013 higher. You would figure both and average them out for length or use two different pushrod lengths. I think the ones I linked which are only .009 longer than your stock length ones would work fine and be insurance against a ticky idle.
Ok, so the adjustable ones aren't needed? I can see where the adjustable ones might be over my skill set, which is zero skill.
I hate the adjustables, they should only be used for checking length. They are heavier and weaker and with hydraulic lifters and the right length pushrods you should never have to adjust.
Ok, we'll order the pushrods soon. On a possi note, we got 3/4 of the pistons today. and I went thru half the lifters; disassembled, cleaned,
lubed and reassembled. A new skill!
IMG_2015.png
In case I forget, someone remind me that the crank is in the boot.
IMG_2008.png
Spent some time inventorying the parts. It's a reset kind of thing. Getting my mind wrapped around all these parts and thinking about what needs replacement and what I can restore. Some rusty nuts and bolts need replacement , others I can clean up. I need quite a few parts still. Clutch assembly, oil pump parts, etc.
IMG_2007.png
A quick note on pushrods that may save you trouble later:
Push down one of the pistons in a lifter and see how much travel it has. 1/4" is not uncommon. That is what you have to work with when selecting pushrods.
Why so much? It's a carryover from before Buick started using so much nickel in their cast iron. After that valve recession wasn't an issue even with unleaded gas but back then it wasn't uncommon to see as much as nearly a quarter inch of valve recession into the head which meant the lifters had to be able to accommodate it if the engine was to keep running.
This means we now have a surplus of adjustability and that is a bonus for the engine builder, because you can select a pushrod to put the piston in the middle of the range and then you will never have any issues with lifter tap. I generally set them for .060-.080" of preload.
Suggestions for lesser amounts such as .020 are based on retaining the longest possible travel to allow the maximum valve recession without holding a valve open and we just don't have that problem anymore.
This means your pushrod length is not at all critical.
Jim
OK, thanks. I ordered the ones Jim mentioned on ebay. I'm sure when it comes time to install them I'll have questions.
Did this 16 times; half of them were stuck Could be because the resurfacing process got junk in em. They (Delta Cams Tacoma) made sure I knew to open them up and clean them well. They were like "you don't want to pay us our hourly rate to do this" . They were right; it wasn't difficult. Took about 3 hours.
IMG_2016.png
Scott, you are going to be an expert on the little V8! Notice the finish on the bottom of the lifters, better than new. John at Delta does good work. You should use a brush and clean out the oil holes in the crank too.
Yes, the crank needs to be cleaned for sure. Probably do that next since I'm waiting on the pistons/rings. Also, I need the regular oil pump gears don't I. Mine are the heavy duty ones I think. I got the booster plate, but haven't done the oil mods on the pump housing yet.
The high volume pump has an open spacer for the longer gears. The booster plate is solid except some small oil passages.
Just so you know: On my base 300 iron head 2bbl 9:1CR with 50k original miles, untouched except for oiling mods, timing set and new gaskets, with 0w20 oil thoroughly warmed up I get 40psi oil pressure@750rpm. A worthy goal to shoot for. Extended or high capacity gears are totally unnecessary if the bottom end is built right.
Jim
Oil pump kit:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8309444&cc=1319622&pt=5564&jsn=623
Booster plate, if you don't already have it::
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3961887&cc=1319622&pt=10268&jsn=626
I have the booster plate, so I'm ordering the oil pump kit.
Thanks
Scott, you will need shorter oil pump bolts too. Minus the thickness of the spacer plate.
They sent along new bolts with the booster plate. Assuming thats what they are. I got the crank out and ran some pipe cleaners thru the oiling holes. I did not know how they ran until doing that. I'll spray some solvent thru them and blow em out again.
IMG_2019.png
The booster plate kit from TA has these bolts. I'm guessing they're the right length.Fingers crossed.
IMG_2022.png
Some of them are. Some are too long. The Melling kit says to try them and if they stick out less than a 1/2" they are right ones.
OK, I'll check that out shortly.
Help me understand what that plate is. I presume it provides an unscarred surface next to stock gears, which is a good thing. And I presume it's steel, and therefore will wear longer than just the aluminum pump body would. But what boost does it provide?
Pipe cleaners are OK but it isn't expensive to buy a set of engine cleaning brushes which have stiff bristles and will leave no residue. They do a better job. I hang my set on a carabiner by the parts washer and they are always there ready for use.
You can break the sharp edges on that plate and the gears. Go very lightly on the gears. Think about how the oil will flow through and try to remove obstructions and sharp break-overs to reduce cavitation and improve flow. (Consider how "hydraulics" are formed, note below.) There's a good bit that can be done in the pump without removing a lot of metal. Set the end clearance as tight as you dare. Do that with the shims dry then assemble with a thin sealant. Don't forget the sealant on the threads of the bolt that runs to the inside of the cavity.
Inserts on the head stud holes are a good idea. hopefully your machinist will use long ones. I'd prefer 3/4" or more myself.
Even with those you'll want to be careful of your head bolt bosses which can mushroom. Inspect them carefully and use the largest, thickest hardened washers on them that you can get. Studs are a good idea. If there is room it may sometimes be helpful to double up on the washers. It's a weak point.
A roller cam can be fitted to this engine if a thrust plate is made up and secured to the front of the block under the timing gear. This allows the use of modern oils without additional additives and widens the torque band even with a mild cam. Stock rocker arms and pushrods can be retained but roller lifters are needed and pushrod length will change. TAPerformance can supply the cam and lifters but they do not have a suitable thrust plate. I've attached a photo of a suitable thrust plate.
IMG_0038.JPG
Jim
Note: Since a search wasn't that helpful, in rapids a hydraulic is a short waterfall into a circulating pool or eddy which reverses the flow of the water and causes it to run upstream back into the waterfall, disrupting downstream flow. Not what you want in your oiling system. Avoid overhangs, particularly when followed by a direction change. Any boundary layer separation can cause this effect to a greater or lesser degree. Rounding the edge is often all that is needed, and frequently less than you think.
Addressing Curtis' point, the booster plate basically only does two things. It provides a fresh wear surface as noted and it is also said to stabilize the aluminum pump casting. I find this claim questionable but it does no harm to add it. As far as actually boosting oil pressure, it does not but you have to call the darned thing something I guess. Stabilizer plate might have been a better choice but again of questionable benefit there. Wear plate? That would probably be the most accurate. It also is in need of deburring and port work. As it comes it adds additional restrictions.
Jim
A couple other things it acts like a girdle to stiffen the assembly and the original Kenne Bell and Ruggles versions rerouted the oil flow and helped idle oil pressure. As far as I know TA just resells the Melling plate. I add a 1/4" oil hole to reroute some oil to the other side of the gears to help idle oil pressure. Jim B's excellent oil pressure is mostly due to the close clearances on the rod and main bearings, Jon and Scott's builds should be very good also with .001 on the mains and .0015 on the rods.
I think the three keys are 1) tight bearing clearances, 2) tight pump gear end clearance, and 3) reduced restriction in the suction line.
Reducing turbulence also is helpful. Any one of those will help some but all three should give you exceptionally good oil pressure. This isn't asking for much, remember the rotating assembly of this 300 is untouched which means it has the factory bearing clearances. The biggest mistake I see is letting the crank grinder go with common (chevy) clearances, and then slapping the oil pump together with a gasket and a prayer. That approach almost always disappoints and I did it that way the first time myself over 40 years ago. Nothing good comes of that.
Jim
John at the machine shop says I need new valves and seals. He's not seeing them specifically at his normal sources. Where have you guys got new valves for the Olds 215 head? He says they look stock and have a single groove for keepers
Scott, those valves are rare, but TA has slightly larger 64 300 IN valves and 65-67 300 EX valves that will work for the stock seats. They use stock 11 degree keepers and my guess is your beehive springs have 10 degree retainers. Jon's motor had 7 degree retainers and we couldn't get them off and went to Z28/LT1 springs and Comp Cams 11 degree retainers. You want him to cut the guides for Viton seals and leave the little coil springs off the exhaust seals. We also used bronze valve guide liners.
TA shows both the stock valves for 215 and the 300 version. They don't stock them and cant give an estimate on delivery due to the back order status. I'm surprised that everything else is available but the valves are scarce.
The 300 valves are .095 longer than the 215 and you would need different pushrods. Olds 215 IN valve is same as Buick 215 but EX is larger than 64 300 but smaller than 65-67 300.
Another alternative is new valve seats for your valves. Alex's Part's has them and your machinist would know what size he would need:
https://alexsparts.com/valve-seats/
Egge Machine Co may have new valves but will be expensive. Their website seems to be down.
Meaning keep the existing valves?
If new seats would help. You have to ask the machinist.
How goes ? If not done, use $50. 3.5 block. quick hone, assemble, run. Happy ever after.
Art
Will Rover 3.5 valves work? They are available thru The wedge Shop. Their listing states they work on all of the rover variants.
They are the same as the Buick 215 and may on the IN, but the Olds EX valves are larger diameter. Ask your machinist maybe new IN valves and new seats for the EX. Rimmer would have the best prices on IN valves. Call Egge Machine Co on EX valves?
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-602166A
https://www.allbiz.com/business/egge-machine-co-562-945-3419
OK, calling them.
Egge machine has a few valves, not a complete set. But, they manufacture valves and can do that for approx $500. Could take a month to get those. That's an option but not a cheap one. Rimmer Bros website sucks and the're closed so dont know what they can provide. TWS are suppose to call me back, but it looks like they'll have the intake ones.
My link above shows Rimmer IN valves for 3.5 Rover @ $11.70 each where Egge and the Wedge shop are around $30 each. Here it is again:
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-602166A
Larger than stock EX:
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RB7461
Larger than stock IN:
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RB7460
If it was me, I'd get the larger IN and EX which are the biggest you can go with the stock seats. Basically 300 Buick diameters.
Sometimes it's possible to find a valve that uses different keepers or is long enough to trim to length and cut new keeper grooves. Likely to be a more expensive option but sometimes not. Something to keep in mind.
Jim
The valve tips are not the same as mine. Machinist says they wont work.
IMG_2035.png
This is the other one, obviously one is in and the other ex.
IMG_2036.png
The intake has the double grooves. Unfortunately we don't know where these valves came from.
Definitely not stock, stock would be the same as Rover. .Have him measure the head diameters. Olds stock are around 1.50 IN and 1,36 EX. The rover valves will work with the right 11 degree keepers and retainers like Jon used, If the head diameters are larger than stock you can use new larger seats and 1.74 IN and 1.5 EX from Ford 2.3 SOHC Pinto like I did years ago on 300 heads .Jim B, it is hard to find other valves unless you go larger.
John said the intake head diameter is 40mm or 1.575'
An article on here used these valves and seats:
Pontiac Iron Duke four 1.72 IN and Manley P/N 11667-4 Volkswagen 38mm (1.496) stainless steel EX valves. The larger valves will require new seats, such as Precision PC1500-31 (exhaust) and PC1750-39 (intake),
I'll look them up and see if the keeper slots match. Hard telling what previous owner did.
John said the conical springs i have aren't stock and I'm assuming they may need to be changed with the diff valves??
Which springs did Jon use with his valves?
We originally wanted Z28 springs which are good replacement for stock. Previous owner had heads cut for larger diameter beehive springs so the machine shop went with 70 Camaro LT1 springs and Comp Cams 11 degree retainers with stock Buick/Rover keepers .I'll send you links. Probably your best bet.
Z28 valve springs:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353712244161
11 Degree retainers:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-712-16
Z28 valve springs:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/316580823544?_skw=chevy+z28+valve+springs&epid=115083206&itmmeta=01JYQ0WT1TM91N06M7ZVVDSAJ3&hash=item49b5b001f8:g:sPEAAOSwXFhnlJGA&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cXlMB3Hbf9ybWa1zZ3SlpZZXmVXQSJDvJz3kNlOFlwrgj1U8mX2aovEtl9%2BKxNnAxZY6mPwwVMFIRTWo298H1tj01RV1FujoAjLTi%2BAdU8axda7w1S2mjQS9vJ4wjopxQGZQC0btsMSKn4G1XSUWywdH9pceCw%2BqUj9vovLm0EnPhtSKULkejyRxU6AtyIFF2H4tA67NCSmH%2Fb573Rq6pGMaY1aYd0PiW3bX4TUE3Fprh0YZSlNmClPNgYkYh1unE%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4yh8-D1ZQ
OK, great!
All should work fine with the larger Rover valves. I added the link for the retainers above. Laptop battery died.
"John said the conical springs i have aren't stock and I'm assuming they may need to be changed with the diff valves?"
Does he know this for sure or is he thinking they did not have them back then?
The Olds 215 had conical or beehive springs as OEM.
True, Stock ones are pretty weak though, Most likely Comp Cams Beehives for SBC. If you zoom in on this pic, they look like the larger diameter one's like Jon had on his.
IMG_1834.png
Stock beehives:
20190609_150504_resized.jpg
Scott, Call TA and Egge on the Buick 11/32" 11 degree Keepers/Locks, British call them Collets. TWS has the Rover one's at $5 something a half and you need 32 pieces. Rimmer was $6 something!
OK, I ordered the larger valves from Rimmer and the 11 degree retainers from Summit. Thanks!!
TA doesn't show 11 degree 11/32" keepers. They have them for 3/8" application. They have 10 degree for the 11/32'. Calling Egge now.
If Egge doesn't have them TWS has the best outrageous price. American parts are around 4 times cheaper usually. Did you order the Z28 springs too, the retainers won't fit the beehives.
Usually best to call TA about parts they do not list. Often they either do have them or can get them.
Jim
I ordered the Z28 springs; John doesn't think the head was machined for larger springs.
I called TA on the Keepers and he said they were hard to come by. He said he had a set but they weren't for sale.
He said it might be easier to find them on a junk Rover motor. Rimmer was double the price of Egge and they were a back order item. Egge said they could get them but wanted to confirm the estimated delivery time before taking the order.
Maybe they are the stock beehive springs and your pic's perspective made them look bigger. Z28 springs work great. That is a typo saying 118lbs closed. Really 110 @ 1.70 installed. Use 1.72 for 95lbs.
The Egge Machine rep was going to call me with a ETA estimate on the keepers before taking my order. He didn't call back. I'm wondering if the TA guy is right and these particular keepers are very scarce over here. Rimmer Bros might be the only source, other than a salvage yard with a wrecked Rover.
"Wanted" ad in our classified section?
Or maybe call D&D Fabrications? (I think they used to have used parts too.)
I'd call Egge Monday, The Wedge shop was a little cheaper than Rimmers. Curtis's idea may be the best deal.
https://thewedgeshopstore.com/collet-valve-rover-v8/
If TWS has them, thats less than Rimmer when shipping is figured in and euro exchange rate and all that (and they dont have 32, they have 8 or 9 and the rest are back order). Once I confirm Egge cant get them at $1 a piece, we'll call TWS.
Thanks guys!
I may have another source, I'll get back to you.
Jim just pinged me to join this conversation.
I'm sure I've got an engine's worth of stock RV8 single wide groove keepers I can share if someone is struggling.
But looking back several pages, I saw posts of double and single groove valves? Are they being replaced with Rover groove valves?
Reminder there was a lot of info in this post (below) about keepers, angles, modifying caps to use beehive springs but with stock keepers, etc.
https://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,70952,page=2
Dave, He's replacing the old valves with the larger aftermarket valves from Rimmers. I remember you did also. I'm helping on another build where we used the Comp Cams 11 degree retainers with the Z28 Chevy .550 lift springs. You would think Comp Cams would sell 11 degree keepers for their retainers, but they don't.
Jim, what's the dims /specs on those springs you speak of? Specifically the ID the top...
Maybe I should send an email to comp advising them of a potential market to accompany the heavy 11-deg retainers.
Did Jim Blackwood get his motor running with the modified comp 795 retainers?
Dave, the springs are all over Ebay for under $50. Usually Elgin, enginetech or Pioneer. Upgrade for stock SBC springs. Here is an ad with specs:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353712244161
As far as I know, Jim B has not got his motor going yet but working on his low profile Supercharger.
I've finished all that, both engines are ready to go.
The one I think you are referring to is the one with the Rover heads which is the 340. It's relegated to being kept as a spare, is bagged and will likely go up on the pallet rack in the not too distant future. All those details did work out in the end. I noticed yesterday I still need to install the rear cam plug, the blower may not be bolted down to the intake, and I need to get some dessicant for long term storage. I could consider selling it to the right buyer but it wouldn't be inexpensive. I figure it's about a $20K engine once an accessory drive is fitted.
The other one, the 300 stroker with the underslung blower is going in the car this winter. I want to build a new hogshead for the rear end, swap out that and the gas tank and run the exhaust out the back first but I'm not doing any of that until the weather turns bad. I think I'll make a new scoop body for it to clear the injector rails and incorporate a MAF sensor. The existing one can go on the 340 but I may not make another throttle body. That's a delicate bit of work and not really required I think unless I decide on a new method of mounting it. Besides, I'm concentrating on the bus and the baggage bay car (cut down MGB).
I've forgotten all the details about what we did but it's in that thread. Thanks again for the retainers btw. Doing them again I don't think it was necessary to skim cut the tops of them and that might have made them a smidge stronger but I doubt that really matters. Of course on that engine the spring pressure is around 350 lbs open due to the roller cam and the elevated redline but I suspect it would take much more than that to cause a failure. If the stroker outlasts me we will never know. That's my goal anyway, and the reason for keeping the 340 as quote, "cheap insurance". Yeah. cheap. That's it alright. If I didn't already have it I would never have built it. But it's a great engine, just not really suitable for an MGB. Most MGBs that is.
On the stroker I used keepers with the more common single radiused groove and cut the valve stems to match. Finding the parts for those wasn't so difficult. That combination of the 11 degree keepers and the beehive retainers is really the difficult part here, and unless you need to live at high rpm I really don't see the point. There should be straight springs that will work.
Of course you could ditch the Olds heads and go with Buick, Rover, or even 300 depending on the pistons you use. There really isn't anything particularly special about them. On my Olds heads back when I was running the Jetfire I believe Harry had swapped in longer valves to run straight springs and on the Olds blower motor I'm pretty sure Lumley's speed shop had done the same thing. I bought both engines after they had been built by others so I have no first hand knowledge of the details. Wish I could be more helpful.
Jim
Jim B, We are running straight Z28 springs on Jon's and Scott's problem is he had IN valves with two grooves and single groove EX. When Scott went to the bigger aftermarket Rover valves he had no keepers to match. For some reason the new ones are rare and stupidly expensive.
I called Egge and they couldn't tell me anything about the Keepers. The guy that was going to call me back with a ETA isn't there today. The price he quoted was half of what Rimmer Bros or TWS. In the end after talking with Egge today I gave up on them as a source and ordered them from TWS.
Scott, You could have got used ones from Dave? You could PM him and see.
That was my plan B
Got the valves, retainers and springs in, waiting on those pesky keepers (they're shipped). Get those down to Tacoma and I'll soon have the block and heads back. Then the fun starts. I'll look at all the info here on the oil mods and finish the oil pump part of that. Thanks!
Scott, You must have got the rest of the pistons too.
Yes got the pistons over to John's Specialty Services
All the stuff John needed to finish the block and heads are there or on the way. Just sent the valves, springs etc.
Great news! I was over at Jon's today helping on his build.
I'll be working on the oil pump while waiting on the block and heads. Got everything in but the main bearings which i ordered today.
Got word from the machine shop; the heads should be done this week and the block work should happen this week as well. The oil passage blowout has already been repaired. So the cylinder boring or honing happens this week, fingers crossed.
Scott, sounds good!
Update on the machine shop status. John is working on the heads and asked if I had new stem seals. He said he may have to machine down the guide area in order for the seals to clear. He wasn't having a lot of luck finding a seal that will work. He's still looking, but I may have to get them from the valve supplier. Have you guys run into this issue with the Olds heads?
Scott, You want him to machine down the valve guides for the .530 Viton seals like these. I don't use the little coil tension springs on the exhaust seals. Pretty standard Hot Rod mod.
https://alexsparts.com/11-32-x-530-viton-valve-seals-11-32-fixed-body-valve-seals-vss-284v-set-of-16/
Thanks Jim, i forwarded this to John.
Scott, any news? We got Jon's running today.
I was just going to ask about Jons motor. My heads are done according to John's shop. The block is still in process I guess. I talked to them today. I may go down and get the heads this week.
How did Jons motor run? You guys are inspiring me thru this, so I hope its running great!
It ran pretty good but got a little warm on the test stand. Going over tomorrow and hooking up gauges and a little fine tuning.
I'm going down to Tacoma tomorrow to get the heads back from John. The block is close but not done yet. I just need to see some progress, so I'm getting the heads and will get the block later. It's close to being done, I think. I definitely want to run the motor on a stand before re-installing it in the car. Not sure on that process yet but will get educated on that soon. No way I'm putting that motor in without some assurance that it's ready. Taking it out by myself was not too difficult but reinstalling it may be a different story. Similar to taking the engine apart, which isn't too hard; putting it back together will I'm sure be a different story. I'll post some pics when i can. Thanks guys!
pic of run stand:
20250730_131813.jpg
Video of extension to engine stand for radiator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPr1I_ARys
Got the heads back, look pretty nice with new larger valves.
IMG_2221.jpeg
That engine run stand looks pretty stout!
IMG_2220.jpeg
Valves are black coated? What installed height are the springs?
This is what John gave me and I'm sure he's got any other specs we need. He gave me this as I left and I didnt know
WTF it actually was but knew it was something to keep. He has the block still and will be able to help with some of the details going forward.
iIMG_2222.jpeg.
I'm rounding off but around 1.65 for 120lb valve closed. 250lb valve open probably at .500 lift. The Rover valves are a little shorter so that makes sense. The last number is the room you have before coil bind.
Run stand is a pretty good idea but need not be too complicated. I've done a short run on a standard engine stand. A water hose and some gravel will allow longer runs. Hook up an oil pressure gage, shop battery, outboard gas tank with a fuel pump, headers and mufflers, just the basics. An IR gun for temperature checks. 4 legged stand is a little more stable but the 3 legged one works too. Where it gets complicated is if you want to test the EFI system, but just to check oil pressure a squeeze bottle of gas will do the trick.
Jim
Jim N ; When I get to the point of needing to understand those numbers, I'll be back in touch here. I will say it's nice to know you guys completely understand it.
Jim B ; I''m considering making a simple run stand. Looking at the diff options (cheap). I don't have EFI, yet, So it's not too involved. But since it won't ever be used again, it may be better in my case to just take it to a shop that does this stuff. I do love building contraptions and this is right in my fun zone. We'll see.
Thanks guys!
Most people are scared the engine will flop over but all torque is contained within the engine itself and the only time it even has any tendency to move at all is when blipping the throttle and in initial cranking and that isn't much. You could fit an outrigger to the front leg of your stand to make it more stable if you feel you need to.
A simple carb and distributor setup is probably the easiest thing. Controlling the noise is maybe the most important followed by making sure there is an adequate supply of cooling water for extended runs (and drainage) and an adequate fuel supply. I wouldn't be scared of it, you just need to prepare properly and that's really not much different from the engine being in the car. You can shut down any instant you see an issue of course.
Jim
Thanks, I'm still considering some different simple run stands, some integrate the existing engine stand I have. I think I have time to throw something workable together as the block is waiting for it's turn in line at the machine shop.
The situation is we don't know when the short block will be ready. It's in line at the shop, so we wait. In the mean time I'm leaning into the idea of a basic run stand. I have time to spare at this point; so we'll try to get something workable going.
Jim N, Here's the rad setup. Griffin custom rad with fans by whoever. Actually the big fan is Perma-cool and the small ones are Spall. They're from 16 years ago but the miles are only 10,000 probably. The fans have to be changed to one fan with a shroud.
IMG_2238new.png
Scott, Ford Taurus fan and shroud in post #10 and #11 in this thread:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/81150-Electric-Fan-cfm
90-95 9 blade Tauras fan:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7148448&cc=1138687&pt=2181&jsn=653
Other options are the Volvo fan, which uses a suitably large and convenient fan relay mounted nearby, and the Chrysler minivan. Both move large amounts of air, aren't objectionably noisy, and fit. Also easy to source at the junkyard.
Jim
From Jim N.
Quote90-95 9 blade Taurus fan:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7148448&cc=1138687&pt=2181&jsn=653
In case anyone is thinking about using this fan in an MGB engine compartment.
Dimensions: 22"W x 18.5"H x 6.25"D.
Carl, You are right. That fan is 18" diameter. This one is 15" and 8 blade.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3924048&cc=1138676&pt=2181&jsn=875
Main reason I bolted a fan to my water pump is there is not really enough room for an electric fan. Seem to only really need it during the very warm to hot driving season here. I still have the OEM fans up front as auxiliary.
Thanks guys, My rad is 18 3/8" wide, 171/4" high. The current fan sits at 3 3/4" off the radiator. So, it appears the Taurus fan is too wide. I think i have to wait to get the engine back in before I'll know how thick the fan can be before hitting the water pump. There wasn't much room with the current fan setup. At 6.25" thick the Taurus fan may be too thick as well. Which fan is Jon using Jim?
He has one that came with his radiator. When I go over Thursday I'll get the diameter for you. You could also center your large fan in a custom shroud.
Scott, this is the radiator and fan Jon has:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/395451718157?_skw=mgbgtv8+70mm+radiator+with+fan&itmmeta=01K6ZSCG8DV755Q7XT4QZE0RRR&hash=item5c12c25a0d:g:iJ8AAOSwYAJmYSdY&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA4FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1dCtz7Z2an6imgCI0yH1n1%2FefZaKDhJDBpQicQRLlNpL%2BKTz0gc7D8vDwW%2FJMe963FOiBMrSY0LVuWQxgMPkaMCgcy8AVZqTF1pZRwlGUbpZTeCF83nnZ%2FCzrAFn5AWMm226iHtpP02aPApBolA6BjLJO7DchDzFV65j2W8boFiN252%2FxlKdAhqREpN4hJ4K4uLZA9xbsbn4PInTDm8iEYPcu6F05MXiPeP2ErW8%2F0Jq2TFddUJrADz20Wo7OZ%2FguJwTWY6CYUvRM6y2tTsea%2FU%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7iEsvm3Zg
Ad says 14" fan.
Depth is possibly the most critical dimension. Haven't looked for awhile but I seem to remember the Volvo and town-n-country fans being more on the thinner side.
Jim
Scott, your existing big fan is good. Almost 3000cfm.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/326359311160?_trksid=p2332490.c101196.m2219&itmprp=cksum%3A3263593111604b275a3acb6d46fba0d37843eb03b5b3%7Cenc%3AAQAKAAABQOPVUWkNSWIi4xPIRR%252Bea0ruWIxHgnPK8PdPxN8t7lOJwSbCgBVGnPB%252BkX92OCSHLrWzcuJijyMXsixjmw%252F0tOoPG1Av05NgSa3J%252F4730CL2ZJhZ%252Ff4OEh7j1dOOikPSN7B2hJqcSwmfAr2SPcbFxqwUb9aUDvixNyUsFJiGEqMN5JooMFlAGSFCvb8XuzilfhFAXi%252BxlpHFgFEFQq8n8dPYrhWSmPCgzK%252BPJMnsuFC2J7QwVenX%252FVn9cVhwVuj3WbiaZGgFxyFJ6vatml3HtSr%252FGXo9smjtgTJxDGjoJxkKuEpiVjw4YqHzChC9XEbuUdJ36OouheY2utxrPHW%252BUhFoqptc4dtKEsPW8FjQ3MyhiPcZrw0dYjFT5TBlA4gtd8Rvi%252FWb6%252F4OgaM2w9d4HKeTDRo2V9HPFwHPq%252FpDZif8%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2332490&epid=656188974&itmmeta=01K6ZXCXVAX6H3ABGEQ57GRYHN
Notice how Jon's shroud is just 2 pieces of aluminum.
Scott, this fan looks thinner than your fan:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/354663612256?_skw=14%22+electric+radiator+fan&itmmeta=01K72FTYW8P82N0J7K3R27J7SJ&hash=item5293993f60:g:nVEAAOSwn9JkGWOd&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA4FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1dkMUoQ6BhrYBnAagsidWu0E2Pinjrz6LUQ0nlb7XUrkN52WZuHMsB7gqYB9e9WjtJ%2BDAMI48P22TBjDYp7%2FaTUkwrdSwE%2BbY20%2FxoOT2aHLY2WQBp7EQKxlBCofn%2BJcwn1LDMmRMHvvDtbIs5rFDf%2BgZMjXGVTOVVpmcgveNHxmQD7b64n4a%2FlGRDwdB0G3CYBKg27SW6WLjwdARlq9TbHmQWxIPQTirSBL3IQjT3AMv%2FAfRmldPXtmUwFdQbQ3Zfwn%2B%2FV5f4Uuy9ULJxc3i0W%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-jv68-4Zg
I asked the eBay seller for the dimensions on that fan, Jim. He sent this pic. I think that one may just squeeze between the radiator & my water pump pulley.
Fandimensions..png
Carl, Cool!
Ok, thanks guys. I'll compare my current fan to the ones we're seeing with a shroud that fits my space. I appreciate the help!
Not much I can do until the short block gets finished.
My block has been at the machine shop for months now. What would one consider a reasonable turnaround time for getting a short block honed, head bolt inserts, new freezer plugs etc? I cant get a ETA when I call. They tell me it's on the bench but there's other work ahead of me. How long would you guys wait before just taking it somewhere else?
Scott, Hang in there a while longer. All machine shops are backed up. Hard to find trained help nowadays.
I checked my scheduler, it's been 5 months. Is that the norm here? They got my heads done 2 months ago. I'm assuming they have regular shops that are their bread and butter and one new guy isn't a priority. I'm bored and want to get this motor back in.
Thanks,
How's Jons engine?
I'm thinking roller rockers now. It seems like thats worth the added costs.
Scott, Roller rockers aren't worth the cost for the Buick and they would have to be custom for the Olds. Jim Blackwood modified SBC aftermarket rollers for the Buick/Rover shaft on a Rover head. Olds are kind of oddball, different shaft diameter and length rockers than the Buick. Jon had a crack around a helicoil on one of the timing cover bolt holes and we are on hold until that is tig welded. 5 months is an awful long time. Have you tried to talk to John the owner?
OK, so roller rockers are not an easy upgrade. I haven't really inspected my rockers to see if they are OK yet. With all this time you'd assume I'd have everything else squared away. I've talked to his office person (wife I think). She's nice but each time I try to get a finish date, she says she'll get back with me and doesn't. She stopped returning my texts which is her preferred contact method. So, I call and basically get the run around. Something isn't right; it's like he doesn't want to work on it. My last text was to tell her I'm coming to get it back on Monday the first. I got no response. My issue is the longer I wait, the less I'll remember on how to reinstall everything. Frustration to say the least.
thanks!
5 months is really too long to wait for a block to be done. Something ain't right there. I'd have to go and physically check on it, lay eyes on the parts. Did they misplace the caps or something etc. Make it a friendly visit ostensibly for the purpose of making an advance payment but really to see the parts and give a nudge. Get the reason for the hold up. Odds are good there is one. Lost the block, one cap's gone missing, or just a cap bolt maybe, found a crack in the water jacket, who knows? Easier to put it off than just tell you. Best you find out. Is why a local shop is often best, but otoh I've had remote shops do the best work for me so that's sort of a crap shoot even with referrals.
On those roller rockers, with those head bolts through the rocker shafts probably not worth the trouble. Just make sure to give plenty of preload to the lifters and you should be fine.
Jim
Thanks brother, 2 weeks ago I texted them that I was picking it up today . This morning they texted back that it was getting line honed today and would be ready tomorrow. I figured something happened or yeah something got lost. But geez, way too long. My camshaft shop lost my cam after they reground it. But they found it after a few days? Stuff happens! A lot!
Thank!
Sounds like they found some motivation when they saw they were going to lose a customer.
Supposedly it's getting honed and then it'll be done. Fingers crossed!
Update, its getting finished today (Wed)
We got the block back today and it looks great, I'll get some pics up soon. Of course he also gave some paperwork with clearances and specs which I'll be going over. He put in Timecerts everywhere he thought was needed. Of course Ive got a huge learning curve here, massive! So, first issue for me is he found the mangled remains of some type of seal, spacer? I have no idea. It fell out after the dip tank I think. He felt you guys here would know what it is and where to get one, assuming I need it. It's round and has a dowel and looks like there was another dowel to secure it. Anybody recognize this? Is it a seal?
OK, i see the rear main seal area has 2 dowel holes so this must be the remains of the half of the seal.
Is it possible it got mangled this bad by the crankshaft or did it get damaged maybe removing it. He would have told me if that was it. Pretty sure he said it fell out after the dip tank which means it was in there mangled and not sealing squat. It did have a R main seal leak. Anybody seen one do that?
Scott, Is the mangled part like a plastic or hard rubber? Stock 215 used a rope seal and small pins stop it from turning. When using the rubber seal they are pulled and RTV fills the holes.
Scott, If it is metal, it could be part of the D&D rear seal adapter:
Its metal and looking at the rear main area the bottom obviously is missing that piece. So, it's been 6 months since I saw this motor and I cant remember if the crank was turned down to work in the 215 (rod journals were) but the rear output ?? So, do I order 300 seals or 215? I have the seal from TA, but that DD part is what I need. And then, why was it mangled? I haven't unwrapped the block so the pic is crap, but you can see there's a seal retainer thing not there on the bottom. I know the 300 crank involved mods to the crank and I guess the block?? I'm a one-legged dude in a ass kicking contest at this point.
Great! That's it. Looked it up on D+Ds website. Thanks! Will order it tomorrow. Still wonder why it was mangled?
Thanks
This is the mangled part.
Scott, your crank is a 300 crank that the mains were turned down to fit the 215 block. The 300 crank sticks out in the rear about .5". That seal adapter makes up the difference. It uses a 300 seal, which comes with the adapter.
Thanks! Ordering the D+D Rear main seal adaptor kit. It will be interesting to compare that kit to the mangled pieces i have.
Scott, I have a theory on the mangled spacer. Maybe the main caps were off the block when in the cleaning tank? Then it could have slid off and got mangled. Maybe even the cap was damaged and replaced and that was why it was line honed?
I've never actually seen one of those. But then again I've never put a 300 crank in a 215.
Jim
D+D guy says he "thinks" they have the kit, but was not positive so I'm waiting on a call back. Over $200 he said. I have the seals from TA but it doesn't look like they have a spacer kit though.
D+D didnt call back, so I'll call them again tomorrow. It looks like the upper spacer is intact and all I need is the bottom part. D+D guy said they dont sell the parts individually. So, I hope they can find the parts. Don't know where to look for an alternative.
I think the top and bottom pieces are the same. Try the top piece on the bottom and see. I wonder if a machine shop could duplicate it? Probably cost more than D&D. As far as I know they are the only ones that sell that seal adapter.
Quote from: mgb260 on December 05, 2025, 07:57:31 PMI think the top and bottom pieces are the same. Try the top piece on the bottom and see. I wonder if a machine shop could duplicate it? Probably cost more than D&D. As far as I know they are the only ones that sell that seal adapter.
Not so sure Mark can make those if he does not have them in stock. Probably hasn't had much demand for them in quite some time.
I'll try that Jim, I have to get the motor back on the engine stand and get some pics. The oil galley blowout repair looks good and the cylinders look great. I'm thinking the seal spacer could not have been damaged while the engine was rotating or else the crank shaft would show evidence right?
When I talked to Mark at D+D, I told him I just needed that bottom piece. He was quick to say they don't sell it by the piece, only as a kit. But I'll ask him tomorrow if the pieces are identical and maybe he has a tip on how to move forward.
Thanks
D&D has always been a specialty business with niche prices. Sure miss Mark's dad, Dan.
Mark (D+D) called back and confirmed they have the rear main seal adaptor kit. We're now good to go! Should see it in a week or so.
Got the rear main kit from D+D. Looks great, Looks like I have to re-drill the dowel holes, which is fine. Instructions included. Having the lower half of the seal adaptor destroyed in the machining process is a concern. If I knew that was a possibility, I would have removed those 2 pieces before taking the block to the shop. I think one of their machines got damaged,, it is what it is. Next step is to get started on reassembly. Might need to do some reading.
I was almost afraid to unwrap the block worrying that there could be collateral damage to the modified bearing retainer. But it looks fine. The adaptor fits perfectly. So, the next question is should I try to remove the undamaged half of the adaptor or just replace the damaged half. I'm assuming it's only held in by the RTV. Don't want to bugger up the mating surface. It's in there pretty tight; I tried with my fingers. Haven't tried with any tools.
Scott, I would remove the old top piece as the new ones are a matched pair.
Here's the welded up oil passage. They drilled it out so it should be good.
That's what I expected. I'll grab it with a visegrip and hope it pops out. Funny, the bottom has 2 dowels and it's the side that came out. The top doesn't even have the dowels and its in there tight???
Scott, take a wood dowel and tap on one end and it should slide right out.
Got it! Thanks! I used your tip, its out! Thanks!
Oil pump vane shaft shows damage (we have a new one) but it did not want to come out of the shaft. Once out I see a gouge in the shaft. I can clean it up with a drill bit I guess. This might be one of those things where a veteran would have known you have to tighten up the slotted end before pulling it out.
Every step is a huge learning curve.
Usually that problem is the result of deposits built up on the shaft itself. Sometimes you have to wire brush the shaft to clean it up before removing it. I have to admit that so far I have never seen the forked end of the shaft spread out so that it makes the shaft hard to remove. That would lead one to inspect the rest of the pump more carefully as there shouldn't ever be enough resistance to do that. Look for foreign object damage. Maybe the pickup screen has a hole. Things like that. You will be using the V6 pickup, right? TA has a real nice embedded o-ring gasket for that.
Jim
The metal shown on the vane forked end is from the inside area where the shaft rides. I had to work it back and forth to pull it out. The forked end is distorted and by forcing it out it damaged the inside area. Question is can I clean it up and use it or do i need a new timing cover? I did get the larger pick up tube. I have to check which one it is.
Your pictures don't really show the damage to the shaft bearing surface and of course new pump gears take care of the damage to the shaft itself. As for the scoring in the shaft bearing bore it would only possibly be a concern if it is very deep. Normally you will set your pump gear's end clearance as tight as you can possibly get it with the gears dragging in the housing just very slightly when assembled dry. Another .0005" on the shims should let the gears turn freely. This slight drag will wear in as soon as the engine is run and the housing itself expands more than the gears on warm-up making more clearance. TA sells a shim pack that will let you do a great job here and it is crucial to get this right. It's one of the major keys to good oil pressure. Incidentally, the oil pump cover is a source of many leaks so sealing it well is a prime concern. I like to use a thin sealant of some type on the shims at final assembly for this reason. One or more of the cover bolts will almost always extend into the filter cavity, meaning you must seal the bolt itself. Gasket Maker works on clean threads (both parts) and Phil found some copper washers from McMaster Carr that work under the bolt heads at my suggestion. He got good results. I have yet to order the copper washers but that's on the list.
So with that done correctly, the space for oil to get to the shaft bushing is less than .001" and will limit how much oil can flow past to a very reasonable amount. A groove or two in the bore won't cause any loss of oil pressure and so as long as the shaft is a good fit in the bore it wouldn't be a cause for concern.
However, the existence of that damage does give cause to closely inspect the pump assembly itself as I mentioned. Under normal use a burr in that slot that will groove the bore should not happen and if it does then something caused it. It's a real good idea to understand what that something was before reassembly to prevent a recurrence or other and possibly worse damage. Possibly it could come from mating parts that were not properly deburred to begin with, leaving a sharp enough edge to generate a slight burr later. That's a best case scenario. I'd be looking at the surfaces of the old gear teeth to find any signs of damage such as an embedded object or an indentation caused by the same.
Jim
The forked end of the vane is damaged and what caused that is a question but the shaft moved freely until the forked end entered the opening. If you look in the shaft the gouges are very noticeable. I'm thinking that replacing the cover might be worth the money? The vane itself has damage inside the fork area as if it had enough resistance to get forced out of round.
Scott, We used this universal cover. Also used the gears and front seal that came with it. Had to do a little Dremel work on the top where the boss sticking up interfered with the manifold clamp. Also drilled out dowel holes from 1/4" to 5/16" Used a newer timing pointer too.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/276574734884?_skw=buick+300+v8+timing+cover&itmmeta=01KCHYGMZG9A9Q0D9DS1VNJJ8W&hash=item4065238a24:g:LssAAOSwBIVmqkip&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA4FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cSlLqKEiv0QOejsMI9A8DTVrL8PKy%2BFy8I%2FwqGAyb6Y6Oux3DA7WecOoIV%2F785UqOcSSxlHeaH%2B1CzO4qb2fsi7AWaSx1Jb17yUukf8uSl%2FBMwO2ftZH3D%2FWa4wFfOh9ju9erUuLggtpQC0nOGe7ElRBnSR9TBtUUCNdEqbr4OnKze7Qv5psqvvi6k1Qs51BFalkKFerQZ%2B94AU4xTPH3mP3wzN7K2m8YYB6Yb43XtFQ%2BMYmLHAFF3bizHiSYBcBYkz082n4z%2FitV7FucjXYVV%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_bPwr7kZg
https://www.ebay.com/itm/375522463050?fits=Make%3ABuick&_skw=buick+300+v8+timing+indicator&epid=81242389&itmmeta=01KCHZ2CNJ4A42GW9JQZP59WAW&hash=item576ee20d4a:g:pmMAAOSwEJhoTjp~&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA4FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fHea09dcGg0%2FL7hM59EObP5STMrs4%2FMZM3xtXH%2BwJwp2Jc5je5O88xjBUmKSKgraL0ZATPYQuuu%2FsoypiCxtjiYn33ndNk1B6OtIxVjHqaydCR%2FwEbFgvfovYJClVQLGDKST5A02f80mL4%2FCyhbpszoSdxe3PY%2BgrlBZSoxYQSSk7K%2BnBZJXaAxaWtvPtAB04xFh1HpPZNIDfv8ootPsY5PVXdSWQOzQ%2F0c8%2Fu5oGElnj46g%2Fi4%2BPY%2Bwfd8YMzWQhlfV13vt1xt%2BHmsjei5RHq%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_bKib_kZg
Thanks, I just ordered the Silver Seal V6 timing cover and pump kit (Before I saw this post). Directed there by a post from the moderator. The timing mark and distributer hold down is different so I need to take care of that also. And thanks for the EBay link, I ordered the timing mark piece. Next I'm ordering the TA shim pack! Does the V6 timing cover have larger oil galleys? I hope so.
Next issue is finishing the oil mods. The main oil journal in the block is done after a mishap $$$, I thought I down drilled from the oil pick up flange, but looking at it today it looks less than 1/2". I watched several videos but still need more prep. Once bitten twice shy!! But once the new timing cover and pump show up and the shims; we'll get after it.
Scott, the timing cover should have a 1/2" hole. The booster plate needs a gasket trim on one side and chamfered on the other side. We chamfered with a 9/16" and 5/8" bit where the oil pickup bolts up.
Thanks, I'm ordering the shim kit and once the parts arrive will be finishing the oil mods.
Waiting on parts, so I decided to deal with pistons, rings and any issues with ring gap. Hoping no grinding is needed. I've watched videos and read as much as possible.
Scott, ours were perfect out of the box @ .023. Hyper pistons need a little wider ring gap on top ring.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10058179@N05/albums/72157627729050113/
Thanks Jim! I'll post up the gaps when I do them. So, we do this with every ring? Oh my God. This is why you have to do it yourself. $$$$
Scott, No, just the top ring. You need bigger clearance on the top ring. Second ring should be fine if the block was honed to proper piston clearance. You can check it if you want. Use a piston to push down the ring to center it until the second ring groove on the piston is even with the block deck. Measure the gap with a feeler gauge. May need to use a flat file to get it right. Top ring for 3.530 bore should be .023, second ring .014 minimum.
Thanks Jim! Checking today.
I checked #1 and #3 cylinder with a top ring and got .019. Looking at some ring info, I'm seeing the .004 x the bore which is 3.53. That figure is .01412. So, I see that higher performance engines need more gap. Is that how you come up with the .023? Should I grind some off? Maybe I should check the bore to get an exact dimension. Maybe its not .030 over?
Scott, The chart in the link above I sent recommends .0065 x bore size (3.530) is where I came up with .023. Our block was machine honed twice. All the bores were almost identical. You will probably be fine. You aren't planning on drag racing. You may want to check the oil holes for the mains and the bearings. Use a 1/4" and 5/16" drill bit for gauges. Also our thrust bearing had to be sanded a little as we had zero clearance.
I didn't realize these pistons were hypereutectic. Nice! I was looking at the regular cast specs. Def. Will get the ring grinder tool. I know I could use a flat file, but trying to make things easier and the more tools the better. Thanks!
I bought one of those awhile back. Might try to get one with a fine grit wheel rather than the standard coarse one, most rings are going to be close enough that'll work fine and it'll be easier to use.
Jim
I checked a couple second rings and they're around .017. So I guess they'll work fine. Watched a few more videos and will try not to file too much off on the top rings. The ring filer should be here today.
The deal with the hypereutectic pistons is that the top ring is almost too close to the combustion. Generally requires a larger gap due to higher extreme heat.
Started filing a couple of the rings today just to see how the process would work. Got them to .023 fairly easily. Probably get them all done tomorrow.
Marry Christmas!
The site is telling me I've reached the maximum photo limit per post. Apparently I have to delete some pics??
Cleaned the crankshaft. I was told the machinists usually don't clean them after turning them. I didn't see much if anything come out while using wire brushes and brake clean. Oiled it up afterwords. I guess the next step is installing it and checking the bearing tolerances. Got some plasti-gauge ready.
I spy a guitar player. ;)
Scott, On ours the main bearing oil holes in the block were 5/16" and the bearing shell holes only 1/4" We used a soft jaw vice and drilled the bearing holes out from the back side to 5/16". Just touch the other side with the bit turning to remove the burr. Just start a thread for part 2.
OK JIM, Thanks! It let me attach the pic so not sure what that was about. I'll check the oil hole size on the crank and drill the bearing holes out. I still have to finish the oil pump and timing cover oil mods.
And yes Carl, I have a guitar related addiction. Not in therapy yet. Must have been the CryBaby sticker. Yeah I have a Wah Wah peddle and I'm not afraid to use it!
Thanks guys
Quote from: Gswest236 on December 29, 2025, 08:51:06 PMAnd yes Carl, I have a guitar related addiction. Not in therapy yet. Must have been the CryBaby sticker. Yeah I have a Wah Wah peddle and I'm not afraid to use it!
Thanks guys
I also saw the front part of the Sweetwater sticker. :)
I completely understand. There are a few here that know that I suffer from G.A.S., as well, with 20+ guitars & CBGs, 9 amps (6 are tube), 14-15 pedals, plus two 4x12 cabinets (& a several 2x12 & 1x12 cabs).
I have had my beat up 1977 Thomas Organ Cry Daddy Wah pedal since '81-82.
For the unafflicted: G.A.S. acronym is Guitar Acquisition Syndrome and/or Gear Acquisition Syndrome. Same with NGD New Guitar/Gear DAY)
Back on topic. I have my original 215 & an '89 Rover 3.9 in my other garage bay.
Rock on!
I feel better, I only have 8 guitars, 3 amps, 11 effects peddles, 2 2x12s and a 1x12 that I built. So, my problem is under complete control. Although I did just order a DIY tube amp kit from Stew Mac.
Today I'm installing the main bearings hopefully so I can get the tolerances measured. Did the ring gaps yesterday.
Thanks!
Installed the main bearings and realized my plastic gauge starts at 002, so had to order the right ones. As to Jims comment of drilling out the bearings to match the blocks oil hole. I found my block is drilled out to 9/32 and the bearings are only 3/16. So quite a difference. Would it be better to get diff bearings?
Easy to drill as I described. 9/32 drill bit.
Scott, check your thrust bearing clearance too. Just snug main caps in sequence and pound crank back and then forward with deadblow rubber hammer or block of wood. Should be .003-.009 clearance behind the thrust bearing. We used a hose clamp to hold the thrust bearings together and sanded a little off each side with 600 grit sandpaper and checked a few times. Went from zero to .006.
Ok, so I'll drill the bearings out to 9/32s. On the thrust bearing; I'm not sure what I'm measuring other than the crankshaft tolerance like the other bearings. Is it the side to side movement? Where am I placing the plastic gauge?
You are measuring front to back clearance. Metal feeler gauge. The flanges on the center main bearing are the thrust surfaces. Between the flange and the crank counter weight. Move back first than forward and measure rear gap.
OK, got it. I think. I'll post it up as I go.
Checked the thrust bearing end play and got a .006 reading. Read up on the sanding process that Jim mentioned. I'm surprised I didn't have to do that as well. Lucky day!
Good news!
I got the rings installed, and eventually got the soft vice attachments and the correct plastic gauge.
Moving slowly but moving.
Coming together! Remember when you install the pistons, the right bank as you are looking at the front of the motor 1,3,5,7 rods dimple in the middle faces back. Left bank 2,4,6,8 dimple face forward so the dimples face each other, and of course all top piston notches face forward.
Your rods should have a squirt hole where the cap meets the rod, this is to lubricate the cam lobes and should face the cam.
Jim
Actually, the squirt holes lube the bottom of the cylinders for the piston skirts. They do point towards the cam if you follow the orientation above.
https://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ416_50-54.pdf
My pistons don't have squirt holes but there is an opening in the oil ring slot that must serve that purpose??? (There is a tiny hole on one side where the rod cap meets the rod). The machine shop installed the pistons to the rods and everything looks correct as far as dimple orientation and slot at the top of the pistons all facing forward.
Quote from: Gswest236 on January 01, 2026, 01:30:38 PMMy pistons don't have squirt holes but there is an opening in the oil ring slot that must serve that purpose??? (There is a tiny hole on one side where the rod cap meets the rod).
Not really. That slot is to release the oil that the oil ring captured.
How did you confuse an oil squirt hole in the rod cap with one in the piston?
Jim
There aren't oil squirt holes on these pistons that I can see. Looked at a pic online showing said oil squirt holes. Nothing like that on these pistons. The little hole on the rod cap was just something I noticed.
What tolerances did Jon get on his 215?
Scott, the oil squirters are on the rod to cap parting line not the pistons. You have to go full torque on the caps to measure the Plastigage. What you show is .002. Ours were close, maybe a hair over .001. On the connecting rods it is easier to block up the crank on a table to Plastigage.
Ahh! So is this the hole in question?
So, is the .002 too much? What's the fix, diff bearings?
Scott, If you didn't tell the crank grinder you wanted the closer tolerances they will grind to .002, which is fine for SBC and SBF but the Buick needs closer tolerances for good oil pressure. You can't just measure one bearing at a time. Do the plastigage all at once and torque in three steps, snug, half and finally full torque in the proper sequence. Don't trust a clicker type torque wrench unless it was recently calibrated. Check your rods too to see if they are .002 also. I just remembered that your crank was turned down to .010 on rods and mains.
Here's the crank numbers. The specs on the rods are here as well. I'm not sure what the numbers are in relation to the rods bearing tolerances. Help me understand his notations because I don't know what I'm looking at.
I'm going to redo the calculations after I get a better torque wrench. Doing them individually could throw the measurement off?
Looks like he ground close to min. specs and the bottom .0002 I think he means .002 bearing clearance. It will work but .001 to .0015 would be better. You would use 10-40 or 20-50 oil where you could have used 5-30. The only other thing you can do is have it reground .020 under and specify .001 to .0015 clearance.
So, undersized or oversized bearings wont help? In either the mains or rods.
Scott, No, undersized bearings are only available in .001, .010, .020. .030 and rarely .040. This may be an alternative. You only need 1 sheet of .001, you only need it for the 5 main bearings. Stock 215 specs for the rods are .0015 to .002. Call them and see if you can get one sheet, you don't need a lifetime supply.
https://deckwartaperedshims.com/main-bearing-shim-installation.php
Thanks Jim, I'll call them tomorrow. But first I'll redo the plasti gauge and get all the caps torqued to spec. I'm getting a digital adapter for my torque wrench to help get an accurate reading. My wrench is pretty new but its a larger type the lower readings might be off.
Remember the main caps are numbered and have an arrow pointing to the front. The reason I mentioned the orientation of the pistons is they have to be installed that way.
I will be interested to see how you come out on oil pressure but in the past .002" bearing clearances have pretty much always resulted in sub-par performance on oil pressure and bearing life. There is a whole history involving band-aids of various types from extended gears to external lines to ultimately, thicker oil. None of which was ever completely satisfactory. Typical SBB factory bearing specs are .0008-.0012" and the rest of the system is engineered for those clearances. It's one of those things that really needs to be discussed with the crank grinder before he starts. I specify those clearances on both the mains and the rods, and I get excellent oil pressure numbers with 5w30 and even 0w20 oil.
The 3 great keys to good oil pressure are first and foremost, tight bearing clearances. Next, tight end clearances on the oil pump gears. Third, enlarging the suction diameter and the rest is cleanup. Things like chamfered edges and attention to details.
You can try shimming your bearings. It might work out OK for you. 60 or 70 years ago it was a somewhat common remedy for worn out bearings but bear in mind they aren't designed to be shimmed. Odd wear patterns could result and with those clearances you don't have any room for odd wear patterns. The best solution is to go back to the crank grinder and get it done the way it should have been done in the first place. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the unvarnished truth. Or you can run gear oil in it, your choice. Hard as it is to hear, I know what my choice would be.
Jim
I appreciate your input. I reran the clearance checks with a new digital torque wrench and did what Jim N. had suggested which is to do all the bearings at one time and make sure the wrench is calibrated and do the proper torque sequence. The number came up to .015 on all of the mains. The crank grinder was told the clearance I needed and he marked the crank at 10 for both rods and mains. He was not a friendly guy and I'd go somewhere else if I was getting it reground.
Scott, Looks good!
Thanks, I think I screwed up on the second test. I didn't look at the caps and only cleaned off the used dried plastic gauge on the journals. When I took the caps off, there 2 lines. The original residue and the new gauge material. I'm assuming that could cause some issues with the crush on the new plasti gauge. I may do it again to be sure.
Better than .002" for sure. But let me just ask, what is the engine's expected use? Will it be run hard, or will it be lightly treated? Expected to idle a lot, or primarily run on the highway? That could make a difference.
Jim
I'm not a burn out guy or a high rev guy. But, I want it as right as I can afford. So my thinking is to check the rod bearing tolerances and then decide if I start over with the crank. Do you think the leftover plasti gauge on the crank caps would throw off the clearance measurement? Most of the caps still had the left over plasti gauge on them when I retested them. A clear sign I'm a rookie!
Scott, if the other ones were good I wouldn't worry about it. Check the rods, one side facing dimple in, the other dimple out as they will be installed. You can do a pair at a time on each rod journal. 35 ftlbs.
Hard to say for sure, it depends basically on where it is relative to the new test. If adjacent to it your results should be valid, especially if the old test smashes out to the new value at the same time. Best practice would be to make it perfectly clean of course. Bearing in mind that plastigage is just a second check and not a substitute for accurate measurements. You basically use it to confirm that the shop did what you asked them to do, whenever there could be a question. Best of course is to work with a shop you know you can rely on, as their measurements will almost always be better than your own. It is a little worrying that their recorded measurement was off by one decimal place.
You might base your decision on overall bearing clearances for all bearings. If you are hitting 1.5 everywhere and your rockers are in good shape you might be OK. It'd be less than ideal, so it would be a judgement call. For instance do you expect to put over 100k miles on the engine? If not, maybe don't worry too much about it. If so the extra work is probably justified. I'm not going to tell you not to fix it right, but depending on circumstances you might get by with it. How much risk are you comfortable with?
Jim
Thanks guys, I'm going to wait until i get the rod bearing tolerances before I decide. The motor only had around 10,000 miles since it was built in 2009ish. Even though I thought it was strong, the ring failure happened after only 10,000 miles. It could have sat for several years and the restart could have done some of the rings in, who knows. In the mean time I still have to install the cam and I'm doing some freeze plugs that weren't done by the shop??
Jim N.
The way these rods and pistons are set up; the dimples face each other on each journal. I had Jons shop connect the new pistons to the existing modified rods. The slots on the top of the pistons all face the front.
Yep, with the crank blocked up on a table, I put the 4 with the dimple facing back on the right side looking at the front of the crank. They go on the front of the rod journal. The other 4 on the left, dimple facing forward. They go on the rear of the rod journal. Turn the crank and put the rod journal up and check the first pair, take those two off and turn the crank, then the next and so on.
When you say the "crank blocked on a table"; what am I doing to block it. I'm a visual guy and sometimes words don't immediately make sense. Now, I was assuming I had to install the pistons before I could measure the clearance's, Which would suck! How do you guys secure the crank on a bench to torque the rod caps down?
Blocks of wood with the top piece having a v cut, or you could use a couple of jack stands on each end, now that I think about it. Check two rods at a time as a pair.
Similar to this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80gd2-wtjjM
OK, thanks Jim. I'll put something together.
I made this thing based on suggestions here, Thanks! And got the first 2 pistons checked and they're at .0015. So, will do the rest tomorrow. I've decided to redo the mains after the rods are done as I'm getting more comfortable doing it and think I screwed up the first test slightly.
Scott, Notice, on the rod caps if installed correctly there is a little boss that points at each other.
The dimple on the cap faces the same way as the rod dimple. That's how Jon set them up. On a different note.
Look at the #1 main in the pic. It's gouged.
Looks like it was hit with a grinding machine wheel to add some clearance. Hopefully the scratches didn't happen while running.
Could be a piece of broken ring got caught between the cap and counterweight?
That makes sense. I got the rest of the piston rod bearing clearances confirmed. All are .0015.
I read online about people mixing main bearings with one half undersized or oversized to get that .0005 tighter or looser. Is this sketchy? I'd be willing to try it just to see if I can get the mains to .001 or at least closer. If it's a bad idea, I'll leave it as it is at .0015.
Scott, that only works for Standard and .001 bearings. You are at .010 on rods and mains. You could try the shims and be perfect at .001 if you are .002 on the mains. Did you check the mains again?
Not yet, tomorrow. I thought I mixed the wrong plasti-gauge in with the correct stuff, but I didn't.
So, the only issue was that I left some old plasti-gauge on the caps and it seems to get hard once compressed. So, for that reason I'm redoing it. If it's still showing .0015, I'll have to make a decision. Does the plasti-gauge err in one direction like showing too loose. Or is it just not exact either way loose or tight. I know its supposed to get you in the ball park.
If .0015, it is fine. You have to get the oil pump cover clearance tight at around .001 also.
In this clearance range the biggest effect will be on operational oil pressure and bearing life.
As a reference point, a factory engine with just the typical oiling mods can make 65 psi of running oil pressure fully warmed up and running 0w20 modern oil. That is the engine I have in my car right now, it has roughly 60K original miles. So that makes a good reference point.
Our goal during the rebuild is to match that performance and it is not usually accomplished I feel obligated to say. If you search the web you will see clearance specifications all the way up to about .0023" but rarely will you see any reference to a factory standard. Original factory service manuals are the closest thing you will find and they are by and large intended for the dealer mechanics doing service work and are not the manufacturing standards. In all my years of research I have on a few occasions seen those references and much to my regret have not recorded or saved them. But what I can tell you is that the numbers I saw were a range from .0008 to .0012" and this complies very nicely with modern manufacturing standards as well as general precision machine shop practice. It's about as tight as you could reasonably expect the bearings to be and get reliable smooth easy rotation. And if you think about what is happening inside a pressure fed bearing you can understand that the thinner you can make the oil film that separates the parts the longer it will last and the lower the volume requirement will be. It is possible to reduce clearances in a shaft and bushing to as little as .0005 and possibly with ultra precision hardened parts to as little as .0003" and still get smooth and free rotation mostly unaffected by temperature changes for similar metals but that's not a split bearing running bi-metal inserts. I simply added that as an example, theoretically you could closely approach zero clearance and still not have an interference fit but in practice it wouldn't make a good bearing, some clearance is still required due to the microscopic surface irregularities, deviation from perfect roundness and so on. But half thou clearances are common in many industries and has been a common practice for well over half a century, maybe a full century so the clearances used by Buick back in the 60's while pushing the envelope a bit, went right along with their advanced use of thinwall casting and high nickel block alloys. Buick really was making the very best engine possible in many ways, whatever our feelings might be about their pistons, valve sizes or intake port designs.
So to answer the question of will .0015 be adequate? Yes it certainly will. Will it be optimal? No it will not. But it's a balancing act like most things and is entirely dependent on your objectives. Can you live with 10w40 oil and 45 psi of running pressure? If the answer is yes than you will be fine.
Jim
Original Buick factory shop manual bearing clearances for 215:
Yes, note the spec for the crankshaft bearing clearance is .0005-.0021" and it gives the crankpin spec as a single number: .0022" rather than a range which by itself should raise a question, why is there a range for the mains but not for the rods? And as I noted before this is a service manual, not the factory spec. You can't just assume the specs in the service manual are the same ones as those used in the factory building the engines.
If we are going to make any assumptions at all, we should assume the clearance range is the same for both the rods and the mains in which case the range for the rods would be .0006-.0022"
Now if you want good oil pressure which end of that clearance range do you want to be at? Certainly not the big end. And bear in mind these engines were also fitted with an idiot light that came on at something like 5psi of oil pressure. If that's your limit then .002" clearance is fine and perfectly suitable for the dealer's mechanics. But that's not the way the engines were built.
Jim
Thanks guys! I printed the Engine specs for reference, much appreciated! I think I'm fine, not optimal but for my use probably fine. My oil pressure was around 40-45 psi. If I'm there or better it's a win.
We'll see! The spec sheet for the stock motor shows 33 psi at 2400 rpm. I understand the oiling mods and fine tuning of the oil pump improves that and thats what I'm hoping. I'll do the mains one more time and see where it lands. Any improvement over .0015 would be nice.
Thanks!
Olds main cap specs were 5lbs more than Buick. Rocker hold down is a head bolt so 50-55.
Did the mains again and they're at .0015 across the board. So, We'll run with it. Looking at the reassembly sequence and I guess its cam installation next. Do you guys have a set way you go about
The reassembly? It's out there in the web universe I know. Of coarse the oil pump has to be done, so maybe thats next on the list.
Scott, You have to pull the crank one more time and put assembly lube on the bearings if you haven't already done it.
Thanks, I have the assembly lube ready. I watched some videos of various aspects of the reassembly.
Installing the crank and pistons then cam shaft seems to be an acceptable order. Checking the cranks rotation after each main was tightened. It's the oil pump mods that have me intimidated. The new timing cover apparently has a couple passages that have to be drilled out as well. So, if the crank, pistons and cam go in without issue I'll get the timing gear set on. That will need some studying beforehand; got no idea on timing setup and I have the new timing marker to install as well. Thinking out loud here.
Since you've already drilled out the suction galley that's the hard part done and I suppose you also drilled out the downleg that goes to the pickup. No real need to drill out the passages in the cover. The one big thing remaining in the oiling mods is setting the clearance on the gears. This can be done several ways and a micrometer does help but with the TA shim pack there should be a list of which shims are what color so you lay them out in order of thickness then assemble with different shims until the gears just slightly drag but are easily turned by hand using a big screwdriver in the slot of the shaft. You may have to stack 2 or more shims to get this right.
Note here, I like to use a fine jeweler's file and knock the sharp edge off the gear teeth before doing this and it is a good way to check for a burr. The goal is to just break the edge, not to round it off as such.
Next pack the gears with petroleum jelly being extra careful to not get it on the gasket surface, use a thin sealant to coat both sides of each shim and assemble and torque the bolts. Use a sealant on the threads and copper washers under the bolt heads. (McMasterCarr) IIRC I think the torque is about 14 in/lb (NOT Ft/lbs) but check the specs.
...and that part is done.
If you like you can use one of the steel wear plates, claimed to improve oil pressure but probably doesn't. I usually do that but I'm not sure it helps. It does give a fresh wear surface for the gears. You can also port the oil passages a bit if you like, mainly rounding sharp corners and smoothing anything that might impede flow. I usually enlarge the port in the wear plate a bit as I'm smoothing it, mainly to match the opening in the cover. Use the V6 pickup and that's about it. No real need to spend a lot of time on it but you can if you want.
Jim
Thanks Jim! I did watch a video of the process you describe with the oil pump. I have the shim kit and the booster plate. So, I'll tackle the pump after I get most of the rolling assemble in and functioning.
I did forget that I had to set up the D+D rear main seal adaptor thing. Since my original one was altered while being machined. You have to secure the main cap portion of the adaptor with 2 dowels or rolled pins??
The main cap had already been drilled for 1 pin and the other hole was pilot drilled slightly and they must have decided one pin was enough. I now know why they stopped drilling. This steel in the rear main bearing cap is hard! Dulled all my bits and I had to go get a new one to finish it. Was actually happy to at least get that small thing done today. Tomorrow the crank goes in,,, hopefully.
Went about getting the crankshaft installed today. First I drilled out my main cap bearings holes to match my corresponding 9/32" oil passages in the block. Then I had to get the rear main seal adaptor in with the new 2 piece seal. I noticed as I re-read the instructions that huh! I was supposed to put RTV in the adaptor before driving in the adaptors rolled pins. After looking at it for a while and tugging on the piece, I decide to apply the RTV to the adjacent groove to the seal adaptor. If I get a rear main leak, I'll know why. But it should be good,,,,for a while maybe?? I thought trying to remove that adaptor with the pins installed would be a disaster. Then oiled up the bearings and journals and put in the crank. Torqued it to spec and it rotates with no issues. The piston rod bolts come Monday, so we'll get pistons in at that point.
Scott, you don't want to change the rod bolts unless you resize the connecting rods! The big end will distort and not be round!
Thanks for the heads up. I would never have thought that. I guess I can install the pistons now.
Scott, When you install pistons use a clean lint free rag and wipe oil in the cylinders and on the rings. Make sure the rod journal on the crank is straight down and do them in pairs making sure orientation is right.
Yes, lots of lubrication and focus on correct piston orientation. Tomorrow I'll get them in or some of them. Another first!
Thanks!
As to your rear main seal and sealing it to the block... I do have a few comments, do what you will with them.
Firstly, oil leakage is the SBB's Achilles heel. It takes meticulous attention to detail to get rid of them all. It likes to leak from various places. The main seals, the oil pump, the valve covers, sometimes the intake, occasionally the distributor, and the timing cover as well. Each of these places needs a comprehensive approach to keeping the oil inside.
Typically the rear main seal is a source of much leakage. It leaks past the seal itself, it leaks past the pan gasket, it leaks past the side seals on the cap and it leaks through the corners between surfaces. Each of these places has to be individually sealed off to prevent it as the oil will creep through any little gap. That seal adapter adds at least one more leakage path. That's the overall perspective.
Next, RTV sealants. Some are better than others but practically all of them are affected to some extent by prolonged exposure to hot oil. Where it is clamped in a thin layer between two surfaces it does its job rather well but may not do so good if expected to adhere on one side. You see this on teardown where a strip of sealant easily peels away.
So ideally you would remove your seal adapter and re-seat it with a good sealant. The question is how to do that without damaging the adapter. My first thought on that is to grab one or better two, large vise-grip pliers, preferably new, preferably genuine vise grip, and preferably the 10WR if the jaw will fit in the gap far enough to get a good grip. Then a prybar and block of some sort to lift the seal adapter out, bearing in mind that the prybar needs to be parallel to the block surface for maximum effect.
HTH
Jim
Thanks for the info. I'm certain getting the spacer out with those rolled pins driven in will be difficult if not impossible without damaging the $250 piece. I tried grabbing it with players and a soft cloth. Of course nothing! Vice grips and some leverage might have worked. I've moved to installing pistons which has me stalled. The generic piston ring installer I got isn't working to well or at all actually. I get the #1 piston down to the oil ring and it wont go past it. Took if off put it back on and get it as tight as it will go. The piston slides down to the ring and stops. So I think I need a better compressor tool maybe specific for the size?? What I've read is some work better than others. Local auto parts store carry basically what I have. Its like a one size fits all type.
Scott, maybe it is upside down. Adjusting screw should be on bottom half. Make sure the screw turns clockwise to tighten.
It did turn clockwise to tighten. After watching a few videos I think my issue is common. The type i have will work but it's not the easiest and can result in damage to the oil ring. I ordered a much smaller one that only accommodates 3.5- 3.58, I think. Not a ratchet type. We'll see. Don't want to screw up the rings. Also I reached out to Mark at D+D to see if these rear main adaptors are meant to be reused and if so how to remove the doweled section without damaging it (Left a message on their voicemail) before I install the pistons, I need to make the decision on trying to get that pesky seal retainer back out or move forward.
Thanks!
Scott, EDIT: no protruding edge. If the roll pins are straight you should be able to pry with a screwdriver in the middle?
Thanks Jim, Mark with D+D called me back and said to use a smaller drill bit and drill out the rolled pins to release the clamping force of the pin. Since I'm waiting on the new piston ring compressor I guess I'm taking the crank back out. Fun times!
The tips of new vise grip jaws of the WR variety have a remarkably good crosshatch pattern on the jaw tips which is why I recommend them here. The surfaces you will be clamping against, front and rear, serve no operational function and are not harmed by a little surface damage. The pliers themselves need to be locked on just as tight as you can get them with both hands and with nothing between the seal and the jaws. Done correctly I don't think there's any way if those pins were drilled in straight that they can prevent you from prying that seal back out and you'll do less significant damage to it than with any other method. Unless those pins are mild steel (unlikely) you may need a carbide drill bit to touch them and going off to the side is a very real risk.
Jim
I'll give it a shot Jim. The pins go in at angles as seen in the pic. I'm not sure if the angle will prevent the piece from lifting straight out??? If they come out a little, I should be able to pry em out though.
Yeah that's going to be a bit of a problem but if the pins are mild steel it should move and you will bend them and slightly deform the holes so you will need to do some quality deburring and possibly get new pins, though you might be able to reuse them. If the pins are hardened you might break one making the remaining piece hard to get out. Seems to me the safe approach would be to first try a drill bit the same size as the hole to see if you can put a centering divot in the end of the pin. If you can it's not hardened and that simplifies things. At that point carefully drilling through it with a smaller bit should only help as long as you don't break out the side of the pin. If these are 1/8" pins it might be good to start with a 3/32 or smaller, whatever you feel comfortable with. The smaller bits will go through easier, making it easier to keep the drill straight, but are also easier to break so you have to be careful. The main thing is to stay straight with the hole. If you feel it break out do not go any deeper. If you manage to get all the way through and are still drilling through the pin and not into the block (the shavings look different) you can go up 1/64 at a time until you are as close as you dare. At that point it should be quite easy to pull the insert with the visegrips.
I would avoid prying under the insert because you will raise burrs that will then have to be removed. Also it may be quite difficult to pry equally from front and back at the same time to avoid cocking the insert while also protecting the bearing saddle. I think we now know what happened to your old seal insert.
Jim
Well that did not go well. It wouldn't budge trying to remove it with my vice grips. The rolled pins must be hardened steel; broke multiple small bits and the larger bits dulled immediately. Made some progress loosening it but its deformed from the prying, so now its just about getting it out. My mistake, frustration set in after about 2 hours. I guess I need a few carbide bits to finish it. ....It'l be fine.
Thanks for the tips!
Try not to get too frustrated with it, and when you do just stop. Lay down the tools and walk away for a bit.
Since the block is aluminum your odds are pretty good for removing the insert without breaking the pins. The aluminum will deform some. Don't worry about removing it evenly. If you can get one end up, go with it. You may have burrs to clean up afterwards almost certainly but you should be able to reuse the part if you don't resort to hammers and such.
Jim
I know sometimes a break can work wonders. Today I'm getting some carbide bits and getting it out. It will come out about 3/16" which gave me a place to tap up on. But of course thats where some marring occurred. Then I noticed it wasn't sitting right in the cavity anymore. We'll see once its out if its salvageable. Appreciate the help!
So, the good news is I got the seal adaptor piece out today. Bad news is the aluminum piece is not usable. Drilled out too much material, distorted the roundness of it. But, I have this identical piece that survived the machining process. It may not be ideal, but it fits perfectly to my eye and mates up to the other piece fine. Maybe a little RTV between the two mating surfaces to make up for any slight differences. Not buying another $250 seal adaptor kit from D+D. But Mark from D+D did help me understand what I had to do to get it out. Jim B. Was on the money when he advised using multiple bits and enlarging the opening in the rolled pins in steps. Essentially thats what I did today. I got a carbide tipped 5/32 bit and used multiple regular bits to slowly reduce the pins tension. Now I have to clean up a bunch of RTV thats on the other half of the bearing/seal retainer and do it right this time.
Thanks!
Not a pretty picture!
Scott, Quite the ordeal!
I learned something and now I know how to solve this particular problem, I created. If I encountered this issue again, I would get 3 or 4 carbide tipped bits and gradually open the center of the pins. Probably save the piece doing it slowly.
Thanks!
Glad you got it. I'm guessing that's the other half of your new seal adapter and the 2nd half of the old one. Should work fine. I really don't understand why they didn't run the pins in parallel so it could be removed. Here's a tip though, using a smaller drill, run the holes all the way through the cap that way in the future should it need to be removed you can drive the pins back out.
Jim
Also just for info, unless there's something new on the market carbide tipped drills are normally used for masonry and at least in these small sizes the drills are solid carbide rather than tipped. The masonry ones aren't really ground properly for using on metal. There may be others I'm not aware of but the distinction is important to know.
There's a few that say multi material or something, that includes metal. But I know the solid carbide are better. I had a problem finding those at Lowes though. So, the new holes should go straight through and straight down?
Not necessarily. Starting out I'd have maybe done that but now it doesn't matter much as long as you can still get the pins out. That's why I mentioned drilling all the way through the caps. At the same time you don't want the pins to fall out the bottom so that's the reason for the reduced diameter in the holes. I'm assuming you have no pins on the top piece into the block, right?
One advantage of putting the pins in vertical is that you won't have the pins and insert fighting against you when you torque down the cap, as they will just compress with the rest of it. Running them angled assumes that the insert is absolutely fully seated and can't move any further. That's maybe not the easiest thing to do.
Jim
Yep, there's no pins called for in the top position. Obviously they didn't want the whole piece to spin. The previous builder only had one pin installed. That's maybe why it came out in the honing machine or whatever it was. I think I'll drill 2 holes inside where the originals are. I ordered some new carbide bits. Gotta clean up the residual RTV on the block section . This RED Permatex ain't coming off without a fight.
My suspicion is that the machinist or prep guy at the shop decided to remove the inserts and destroyed the insert doing it, not entirely unlike your experience.
When we made dies we always made sure there was a way to remove locating and guide pins, often with a punch hole. That's what you should do here I think, and as your pin holes are there already they only need to be transferred to the new insert piece. That's easily done if you first drill your punch holes in the cap, Making sure they are centered and straight with the pin holes. Go 1/64 smaller in diameter and drill through then use the punch holes to guide your bit into the insert, making sure the insert is clamped securely into the cap, maybe by bolting it back to the block with both inserts in place. Then enlarge the holes in the insert and test for fit. If it needs adjustment at that point you can drive the pins back out. These pins really only need to prevent the insert from spinning and the seals will capture them, so if they end up a little loose you can put in some loctite and it'll be alright.
Jim
Thanks Jim. With what I know now, the process will be easier if needed again. You said the pins would be hardened and they were. My drills aren't high speed by any means and drilling this bearing retainer is hard. If I had a really good drill press, it would be so much easier. I've got the RTV cleaned off the parts (no easy task). So I'm ready to get the crank back in correctly. I just have to remember the RTV goes between the adaptor piece and the bearing/seal retainer BEFORE I DRIVE THE PINS IN!
I got the seal adaptor reinstalled after applying the RTV. I did end up drilling all the way through in case I needed to knock the pins out again. I was able to drive in 2 new rolled pins and everything is lined up so it looks like the crank can go back in.
Very good. Carry on.
Sealing up the rear cap is the next oil challenge. Black Gasket Maker or even Right Stuff is useful here as it holds up a bit better. Smear a thin layer of sealant on the back side of the seal, offset the ends 1/4" or so, and put sealant on the ends where they butt together. Make sure there is no gap first.
Smear sealant on the horizontal surface of the cap and around the seal end. You want to use enough but avoid excess. Install the cap and find a way to squirt sealant into the bottom of the seal channel at the side of the cap while avoiding air pockets. I haven't tried using the tube that comes with the pressurized cans of Right Stuff but if that tube will fit in the groove that'd be the way to do it. What you want is for your sealant to be forced out through the gap in the ends between the horizontal and vertical surfaces where the corner of the cap is chamfered. Use of the rubber block is optional but if you use it you also should use the nail and trim both flush with the pan surface. It doesn't have to go all the way down as long as you have plenty of sealant in there as well. The oil will exploit any flaw in the overall sealing scheme here.
Jim
Thanks Jim, I got the RTV in the vertical and horizontal flange area. Using D+Ds instructions on where to put the RTV sealant. I thinks its good to go. I feel much better about it now and as soon as the new spring compressor gets in I can get the pistons in. Currently the website isn't giving me the option to upload pics for some reason???
Quote from: Gswest236 on January 19, 2026, 06:13:36 PMThanks Jim, I got the RTV in the vertical and horizontal flange area. Using D+Ds instructions on where to put the RTV sealant. I thinks its good to go. I feel much better about it now and as soon as the new spring compressor gets in I can get the pistons in. Currently the website isn't giving me the option to upload pics for some reason???
Try using "Modify" from the "More" menu rather than the "Quick Reply" if you are adding images.
Let us know if you have any other issues.
Scott
Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately the "More" option only gives me report to moderator, modify, ??
Quote from: Gswest236 on January 20, 2026, 12:34:04 PMThanks for the tip. Unfortunately the "More" option only gives me report to moderator, modify, ??
Sorry about that. "User Actions" -> "Reply"
There's no upload option on any of the options. This came up before but resolved. I'll see if this self resolves.
Scott, Try the Reply button and then click or drag your file here for pics.
Quick Reply does not have an upload button. The full Reply window does.
Jim
Correct, quick reply never had an add photo option. Regular Reply did. Now it doesn't on my end. There is no longer that line on the bottom that allowed dragging photos or adding photos. If it's just me and everyone else still has that option, I'm perplexed. There is the 'Other options" window that when clicked shows :notify me of replies. : Lock this topic
: Return to this topic. : Don't use Smileys
After rebooting my IPad, what do you know, "'click to drag files" reappeared. So the issue obviously is on my end. It's a relatively new device so we'll see. I got the 1.5" soft plugs out and replaced. The six that are on the sides of the block; not a big deal but one did get lodged between an external cylinder wall and the interior block side when I punched it in. I honestly thought I wouldn't get it out. It was wedged. Finally got something that would get behind it and force it out, a coat hanger! Anyway, tomorrow we'll start installing pistons, try 2.0!
2nd attempt to install the pistons again did not succeed. The piston gets down to the oil ring and sticks. The new ring compressor is an adjustable style but much closer to the size than the previous one, and is tapered. Tried tightening it more, nothing. Tried loosening it thinking it was too tight, nothing. Reading online people advise using a single size unit for easier insertion. I'm sure a pro would be able to make what I have work, but I'm being cautious due to the many warnings not to force it. Should be able to push it down without hitting it is what I'm reading.
Scott, check by hand that you can compress the oil rings. Some versions have a spacer ring that buts up at the gap and some have to hook together.
Ok, I'll check the oil ring. It appears that everything is totally compressed before I go to install. Then it stops at the first ring and I can see the cylinder liner right there where the ring meets it. Since I've never installed a piston, maybe you have to wiggle the thing around to get the whole ring into the cylinder. Everything I've watched shows how it should go in, and the pitfalls as well. If you know what you're doing any of these compressors could work. So, I ordered a single size ring compressor by Wiseco. It's 3.524" and supposedly that will work???
I like the tapered one piece ring compressors myself but even with those you have to make sure the rings seat properly in the grooves and the tool is perfectly flat on the deck before you start pushing the piston down. I typically use a small to medium sized wooden handled ball peen hammer, holding it by the head and tapping the piston down lightly. The rings will usually balk slightly as they make the transition.
With the band compressor it helps to smack it on a flat surface and tap down the bands so they all line up at the bottom before it goes on the piston. Then it also has to seat squarely on the deck. It often helps to tap the top edge with the hammer handle but not enough that a band slips into the bore.
Give it another try, I'm sure you'll get it.
Jim
Thanks Jim. I know that there are tricks to the trade and I'm using caution knowing I don't know those tricks. I'm going to wait for the better ring compressor and give it another try.
I like the tapered ones, as well. The band ring compressor will do the job. That is what Max & I used on the TR6 race car engine.
I got the old ratchet type cheapo version that had a range of 2.5-7" I think and had no luck. Then I got a much smaller range version that has a hose clamp to tighten, still wasn't going in. The rings were def compressed all the way but still nothing. So, then I'm thinking I have it too tight. As I mentioned, I watched some videos and guys were swearing that you need the non adjustable one for your bore and life would be easier. We'll see!
It can make a difference how your bores are finished. If you have a nice square corner with the deck it generally goes pretty easily but a big chamfer will almost always mess you up with the band type. The band tends to slip down into the chamfer and tighten things up and then the piston won't move.
Incidentally, I find it handy to have a canister just a bit larger than the rings that I put an inch or two of oil in. I set the piston in that canister while opening up the band clamp and it all gets nicely oiled and slips out of the clamp better.
Also, you are never going to get the rings perfectly flush with the ring lands all the way around simply because there's clearance between the piston and the cylinder, the band has to move, and there's an overlap. So it's a compromise on how tight you can clamp it and still move it. Expect it to require some reasonably solid taps with the hammer handle just to move the piston. You can judge that by how much it takes before the rings get to the block. A slightly firmer tap is required for the rings to go past but not a lot. You don't want to damage the rings.
So anyway you can't entirely rely on the piston to center the rings in the bore and may have to shift and rotate the piston while you are doing this. Also the clamp can be cocked on the piston and the piston can be cocked in the bore so you have to get it all lined up nice and straight. That becomes almost automatic after awhile but isn't always obvious starting out.
Jim
I appreciate the tips Jim. I thought there might need some wiggling or moving it around to get it to go in. I'm betting once I get one in the rest will be much easier.
Carefully watch your gap at the bottom. The oil ring, being the thinnest will try to get out there but you can't let it.
Jim
Waiting on the new ring compressor and some warmer garage temps!
Got everything in, have the #1 piston sitting in an oil bath. We'll see if it's warm enough in the ice garage to get back to it tomorrow. Too many years in florida!
The new non adjustable piston ring compressor did not fit the piston; too tight. The piston would go in but not all the way. So I grabbed the 2nd one I bought and resigned to get it to work! It worked fine and I got 1 and 2 in. I realized that when it seemed to be stuck, it just needed to be loosened a bit. It was a comedy of errors to be sure. First I got one in too far and the rod jammed out of position. Tapped it back out and carefully reinserted it only to realize one rod bolt had backed out so that I couldn't get the nut on. Back out it came and try 2 was a success. I made sure the journal wasn't damaged before reinstalling it. When installing #2 I made the mistake of not securing #1s cap, thinking I'll do em both once they're both in. Of course the #1 bearing spun out when I rotated the crank a little. Out it came again to reinstall the rod bearing. So, it should be apparent why only 2 got installed today. Tomorrow should go much easier!
Scott, make sure crank journal is down when installing pistons.
... and that you have tubing on the rod bolts.
I did put tubing on the bolts which helped. The crank was down, I just tapped the piston down too far before getting a hand on the rod to guide it, my bad!
Today went much better, they're all in and oriented correctly. Camshaft should go in next I'm assuming.
I screwed up and asked the machine shop to install the old cam sprocket onto the newly reground cam, forgetting that we have a new timing set ready to be installed. The timing chain was noted as way sloppy on tear down. So now I have to remove the old timing sprocket back off. But all this has to wait till the new bathroom is done, nice! Standing by.
Scott, If your timing set has three keyways I highly recommend you use the 4R keyway. That cam has 4 degrees advance built in which is fine if you have 8-9 to 1 compression but you have around 10.5 to 1. 4R is really zero. Also helps lower the dynamic compression and helps with octane tolerance.
Ok, so it is a Cloyes 3 keyway set. Which one has a 4 keyway? And will it install out of the box or is there a mod needed.
Thanks
Should be 4A just a dot(zero) and 4R keyways on the crank sprocket. You want to point the cam dot to the 4R dot on the crank.
https://cloyes.com/3-keyway-crank-sprockets/
OK, I thought for a minute I needed a different sprocket. So we're talking about setting it at the mark that is the factory setting, not retarded or advanced? I'm easily confused!
Scott, you want to use the 4R keyway to eliminate the 4 advance built in.
https://cloyes.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/3-keyway-instructions-general.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWiKqjxVCc
Thanks guys, I think i've got it. I did go down a rabbit hole watching a guy using an indexing wheel? That was way over my head. Please tell me I don't need to do that!
Cam is in! I have it roughly lined up as the marks show. Now the question is whether the cam is 180 out or not. Are the lobes supposed be down opening the valves or do i have that backwards? The sprockets aren't installed, just loosely sitting there. Do I need a degree wheel to get this spot on? Clueless here!
I think that looks right.
Now a word about retarding/advancing the cam if I may. The usual justification for retarding the cam is that it shifts the powerband upwards which gives you more horsepower at the expense of low speed torque. Usually a good thing right? Well maybe, it sort of depends on how your engine is built and how the car is geared. Even more it depends on how you intend to drive it. Honestly the factory balance isn't bad for all around general usage. Bear in mind of course we're basically talking about someone like a doctor driving a 3500 lb car with an engine built with a bias towards torque. It makes the car easier to drive which is mostly what those owners wanted, and factory redline was 4800.
But that's not exactly the engine we're building is it? A hotter cam with a higher redline naturally shifts the powerband higher all by itself even if you do nothing else except upgrade the valve springs.
Now the question has to be asked, do you really want to shift the powerband even further upwards? Because you certainly can if you like. But what are you reaching for? First, what is the quoted powerband of the new cam? Is that the range you want to use? Or do you anticipate a good bit of freeway cruising in overdrive down around 2 grand or maybe even lower to get better economy? An engine that makes it's power between 3 and 6 grand may not give quite the cruising economy you are expecting if that is the case.
I tend to stay with the zero mark myself, I could see advancing it for an RV or retarding it for a car that saw some competition use but hey, with a 300 in the MGB I suspect you won't exactly be lacking for power most of the time. Give it some thought.
Jim
Jim B, He as the same cam (Crower 50233) that Chris used in his Stroker 300. Plus, he has 10.5 compression. The only reason Crower has the 4 advance built in is if you have 8-9 to one compression. Plus by retarding it, it is really zero and will lower Dynamic compression a bit for pump gas. No degree wheel necessary. You did make sure #1 piston is all the way up? TDC. Lubed good for breakin?
Yes the piston is at the top, the cam lobes are down in its current position with the sprocket marks facing each other. Am I correct in thinking with the cam lobes down, it's on the compression stroke?
Jim, I'm not disputing that but that's a hotter cam for a 215 than it is for a 346 (.030 over 340) so the DCR should already be lower shouldn't it? And the powerband will be higher with a 215 than it will be with a 350, Crower should have those specs.
Jim
That cam is a little big for Scott's motor but he has 10.5 compression. It was pretty mild in Chris's 350. He was .050 over. I believe maybe some unheard detonation contributed to the broken rings before. I've done a Desktop dyno and the DCR was around 9.2 with the built in advance and 10.5 compression. Without it was very pump gas friendly at around 8.8.
Thanks guys. Before I install the timing chain can you confirm that the 2 #1 cylinder cam lobes should be facing down on the compression stroke or do I have it backwards?
Both lobes will be down. If lifters and pushrods were in, valves would be closed. If you think about it, they will be down no matter what if the dot on the cam gear is at 6 Oclock. What confuses you is, the cam turns 2 revolutions for every 1 crank revolution. So, the crank could have #1 piston down and the marks will still line up. Turn one more time and you would be good. That is why you have to make sure #1 is at TDC.
OK, got it. So, after several tries, the chain is on and the marks line up. The cam lobes are down, the piston is at the very top. It rotates and seems fine. On to the next step.
Scott, looks like you are on the factory position with 4 degrees built in cam advance. If you wanted the 4 degrees retard you would use the square key slot and have the square timing mark lined up on the crank sprocket.
I'm at zero which gives me the 4 degrees advance. That's what I want right?
You'll probably be fine. Definitely run premium gas and set your distributor for 32 total when you get that far.
Do you guys recommend replacing the head bolts when rebuilding these motors? I had the timecerts installed.
Nope, Reusable, but I clean threads with a wire wheel and lube with anti-seize. You can tell which ones go through the water jacket on the Olds heads as they will look crusty. Use pipe dope on them. I think from memory they are the long Rocker hold down bolts because the others are the same as Buick's. We found every one of the exhaust studs went into the water jacket. Previous owner replaced them with bolts. We went with new studs and Loc-tite sealant.
Quote from: mgb260 on February 22, 2026, 02:44:48 PMWe found every one of the exhaust studs went into the water jacket.
On the Olds? Interesting. On the Buick 215, all the head & exhaust have blind holes.
Ive decided to reset the timing set. In my confusion I set it 4 degrees advanced which isn't probably what I want.
I now understand 4 degrees retarded gets me to 0 degrees advance.. Am I on the right path?
Yep. Square key slot and square mark on crank sprocket.
I got the timing set corrected (4degrees retarded) and after looking at my photos, I know how the distributor gear and fuel pump wheel go on.
Look at the imprint on the cam distributor gear for spacer orientation. Helps oil the gear.
I did see the imprint telling me how they fit together. But wasn't positive about which one was inside and outside. Found the pic, confirmed I had them correct. Haven't torqued them down yet.
Thanks!
Spacer between the distributor drive gear and cam gear.
Picture on iron 350
I'm guessing some locktite on the cam bolt.
Now's a good time to look over the other timing parts including this new timing cover that is different than what I took off. I understand they are interchangeable between several motors. So there a couple extra holes but the gasket seems to fit and after drilling out the holes for the locating pins to 5/16" it fits on the block. while comparing the new vs old cover I noticed the last mechanic failed to open the gasket at one of the oil pump feed ports. I'll post a shot of it next.
I'm quite sure that blocked off oil journal has something to do with the motor only lasting 10,000 miles. And it's easy to see the new cover certainly has bigger oil passages. I guess I have to set up the oil pump before installing the cover.
Not sure how serious this blocked journal is. The engine made it quite a while and oil pressure was 40lbs-ish.
Scott, I just Torque the cam bolt to 45ftlb. Put your timing cover gasket on the block and see if that port is even there, I think it is not used. Our aftermarket timing cover interfered with the front intake clamp by the distributor hold down.
You're absolutely correct, there's no corresponding port on the block. I have to remember this cover works on 5 or 6 different motors, so there's bolt holes and flanges that don't line up. But it will work. Did you guys have to grind off some material to get it to work?
Just what I said above.
I was asking how you dealt with the interferance issue Jim.
I'm Getting the various parts together for the oil pump install. I noticed that for the D+D filter adaptor to work, there's some mods needed to the part where the oil filter screws into. The one pic shows the old oil filter flange which has been drilled out. The next pic is the adaptor part installed partially onto the Filter port. I need to reach out to D+D for the adaptor gasket and maybe a quick install tip. Took a while to find the filter adaptor itself, then realized it's still in the engine bay connected to the oil pressure gauge supply line.
Scott, After the heads are on, set the intake gasket on, then the timing cover. There was a boss sticking up by the distributor hold down where the front clamp is, causing interference. We cut it down until it cleared. We did away with the swivel adapter and went with a short V6 filter.
Here is a nice short one:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6128244&cc=1015715&pt=5340&jsn=812
Thanks Jim, I'm getting one of those filters. My oil pressure gauge gets its feed from the adaptor, where did he get his oil pressure gauge feed? And were you guys able to grind or cut the timing cover in place or did it have come back off? Currently I'm waiting on a few parts and had to get a smaller torque wrench and some anti seize to move forward with the oil pump.
Scott, Jon's metric cover is tapped for a sender I think. Just trial fit the cover on the pins and see where the interference is. Mark with a felt pen and cut off with angle grinder.
Similar to Curtis's on the bottom of this page but he used an electric sending unit:
https://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson.htm
Block oil sender location, like in later iron block:
Thanks, I'll get the short filter and deal with the oil pressure line at that point.
Today I started the oil pump setup. First I used a straight edge and feeler gauges. With the thinnest gasket I got between 0025 and 003". Trying the plasti-gauge I couldn't get a good crush. I have 2 sets of oil pump gears and tried both to see if it was the gears. It wasn't, they both were the same. So, at this point I'm going to run it. I guess sometimes it's too tight, but in my case it's in spec with the thinnest gasket. Am I missing something or is this the norm. With everything torqued to spec the gears rotate with no obstructions or resistance, and there is a space between the gears and thrust plate. Previous builder had the high volume oil pump in with the booster plate. But the driven gear was damaged at the end where you might spin it to build oil pressure before start up. The gears may have been too tight, but they ran it apparently. I'm doing the stock oil pump with booster plate. Now have to pack it with petroleum jelly and re-install.
Scott, The gears should stick out a little. Straight edge across the gears. Space between the straight edge and housing outside of gears plus .001 would be gasket thickness.
They don't stick out, they're sitting down in this case about 002. Both sets of new pump gears. So it's not the gears.
Sounds like the pocket in the timing cover is worn a little bit. Not that hard to correct, you just need to take a little off the mating face so that you can use the gaskets to set the end play. You might get by with .003" of end play, I know guys have built them that way but what I do know is that the tighter you get that end clearance the better your oil pressure will be so a little time and effort here will really pay off in the long run.
Ideally your end clearance at final assembly will be .0005" and that will increase as the engine warms up. As a practical matter you almost never have a perfectly perpendicular face so the contact pattern on the bottom is less than a full circle. In effect this means your average end clearance is greater than measured. We do the best we can. I set mine up so there is very slight drag initially. That's the tightest practical limit and I get 35 psi at idle and 60 psi at 2K with 0w20 Mobil 1. I encourage you to not take short cuts here.
You can dress down the flange a couple of ways. You can take it to the machine shop and let them do it or you can use a sheet of emery on a pane of glass and take careful measurements with a depth gage or dial calipers. Measure often and keep it flat and square.
Jim
Brand new aftermarket timing cover, the quality varies. I've seen it the other way where you use the thickest gasket and it still rubs. Ours was perfect out of the box. I would sand the housing down with a piece of glass and emery paper.
OK, looks like I'll be working on this a bit more. One of the Instructions was to place a straight edge on the pump gears and measure the clearance between the straight edge and the gasket surface. What would be the ideal clearance here if I'm sanding the surface down. As it sits now the gears sit below the gasket surface.
The thickness of the gasket and plus .001 is what I used.
OK, .006 then. Thanks!
If your gasket is .005 then you want your gear to stick out about .004-.0045". If it sticks out .006" then you need a gasket that is .0065 to .007" thick. Important to distinguish between clearance and interference.
Jim
I got the surface sanded down to a .006 clearance using a straight edge on the gears and measuring the gap between the gasket surface and the straight edge. The thin gasket is .005 which would give .001 clearance theoretically. The plasti gauge showed a .002 crush. I think I'm good, what say you guys?
Scott, much better. The gasket will crush a little too.
Sounds backwards to me. If your gears stick out .006" and you put a .005" gasket on the flange, doesn't your gear still stick out .001"? That's an interference fit. Were you putting your plastigage on the flange, or the gear?
Jim
Scott, Jim B is correct unless you are describing it wrong. You have a thicker gasket?
You're right, once again I'm ass backwards. A .007 gasket would theoretically get me to .001 clearance if I actually had .006 gap. The measurement with the straightedge is probably off. But I ground the mating surface down enough to get the .002 crush on the plasti-gauge with a .005 gasket, where I got no crush with the same gasket before I did the sanding. So, it's better, but is it good enough though. Are there .004 gaskets out there? The shim kit didn't have anything smaller than .005.
Are you using the Plastigauge between the gears and the booster plate. .004 is the wrong way, you want a thicker gasket. About .007. What's the next one after the .005?
Yes, between the gear surface and the booster plate is .002 on the plasti-gauge. That's what I thought I needed.
I'd go tighter than that. As long as the gears will turn using a big screwdriver and only drag a smidge you have enough clearance. That very slight drag (turns easily but you can feel it) will wear in quickly and the housing grows more than the gears as it warms up which gives more clearance. Any more than .001" is a leakage path and reduces oil pressure.
Jim
I'll remove some more of the surface.
Or just use a thinner gasket. Didn't you buy the TA shim pack?
Jim
Scott somethings not adding up. The clearance with the straight edge and feeler gauge with a gasket .001 thicker than that should be perfect. Why would the Plastigauge show .002 when the interference was .001?
Measurement and parallax error, not surprising. This is why the screwdriver test works so well.
Jim
I'll redo the straightedge measurement before I remove more material. I have the TA shim kit; it has 3 diff size gaskets .005 being the thinest. It has a bunch of shims; I assumed they wont work as gaskets being made of Mylar. I understand that if I actually had .006 interfearance, I should be able to use .007 gasket and get .001 clearance. So, something is off. The plasti gauge isn't exact. But let me redo the measurement.
The shims do work as gaskets and are more accurate than the paper ones. Dry fit and use the screwdriver test until you get the best clearance. No need for plastigage, it isn't really much use here because of the parallax error. Once you have the best fit, carefully fill with vasoline being extra careful not to get it on the flange. Apply a thin tacky sealant to all surfaces and torque the cover down. Test the rotation. Use sealant on the bolt threads and copper seal washers under the bolt heads. That might sound like overkill but this is one of the bad places for oil leaks and extra insurance is good. You can get the seal washers from McMasterCarr and get them next day. May be a bother right now but you'll thank me for it later.
Jim
OK, I'll redo the straightedge measurement and go from there. If the mylar shims can be used I should be able to dial it in. The sealant must add something to the clearance; is there a rule of thumb on what to expect when we're dealing with thousanths of an inch.
The sealant will squeeze out so don't use too much of it. Just a very light coating is enough. A thin flexible sealant is best. If your gears are making very light contact with the cover torqued in place, after you apply the sealant, pack the gears and re-torque you will probably not be able to feel the difference.
Jim
Today I removed some more material from the pump surface and started with a .003 shim and torqued it down,(out of curiosity I did a plastigauge test before I tried the screwdriver on it and that showed a .001 clearance) So I thought I was golden. But no, screwdriver would not turn the shaft. Added a .001 shim to that and still got no turn with the screw driver. Went to the next shim size, .005, and got movement but seemed to be too tight. I added a .001 shim to that and got it to turn but maybe not enough resistance. That's with it snugged but not torqued. So, tomorrow I'll torque it to spec and see if I get that resistance that Jim B. is suggesting.
Thanks
You are in the ballpark, and now you see why I said the depth and plasigage tests weren't much use. The gears are almost never perfectly square with the cover.
You are probably there. If you torque it and feel any contact at all but can easily turn it, that's ideal. If you feel no contact but .001 less gives definite drag add the .001 back in.
Jim
OK, Thanks Jim! I torqued it down with the .005 and .001 shims and found that torqued to spec it was too tight. I used a .0015 shim instead of the .001 and when torqued to spec it rotates but has a tight spot due to the slight imperfect pump vanes or imperfect pump bore (as you mentioned). But it's good to go after I take it apart and add the petroleum jelly. That's next and the water pump is ready to go on and then maybe the heads. I appreciate the help here believe me!
Scott, Set the heads and intake on and trial fit the front cover before you do the water pump. You have to correct the interference with the front intake gasket clamp.
OK, I dont have the right RTV for the gaskets so I'm waiting to finish the pump until tomorrow. so, I'll put the heads and intake on next. I've got to clean up the intake first. Is this the interference point?
That's it. You have to cut it off about a 1/2" off below the middle block surface for the intake gasket clamp to clear.
OK, got it! Thanks!
Scott, with the heads, put the lifters and pushrods in before you put in the long headbolts and rockers.
OK, I got the oil pump packed but want to get the copper seal washers Jim B mentioned. I got the intake out and want to wire-wheel it before doing anything with it. So while I'm waiting on the washers I'll get the heads on. The head bolts need cleaning before installation, so thats also next.
Take an old oil pump bolt to the auto parts store and look at the brake copper washers. Should be a good selection.
Thanks Jim. I got some copper washers and will install the thread sealant and washers next. Caught up in another home repair delay.
I got the oil pump packed and sealed up. Once I clean up the intake manifold I can move forward with the heads.
Scott, pre form bend the intake metal gasket for best fit. I smear gray permatex around the ports on both sides and let it set for a half hour, then carefully set the intake straight down.
OK Jim. I got the heads on but only 3 bolts to hold em there. Had to look around for the locating dowels, Jon had them bagged up for me. So, whats the sequence next? Lifters, pushrods then valley pan and intake? There's some measuring needed for the pushrods right? And I've got those lash wear caps as well. I'll need to read up a bit!
Scott, no measuring for your pushrods. I'd torque the heads after you install the lifters and pushrods. The long headbolts that hold the rocker shafts are in the sequence. You did line up the headgasket with the steam holes in the block? Also put a dab of RTV in the 4 corners where the heads meet the intake. Then valley gasket and intake. The torque sequence of intake is snug then 20-25ftlb. The Torque sequences are early in this thread on page 4. Do headbolts once in sequence to just snug, then 25ftlb then 50-55. We had 3 or 4 that went about a quarter turn more and wouldn't go over 50. Inserts you have are better than the helicoils Jon has.
The head gaskets lined up fine with the locating pins, so everything looked good. In one of my pics there's a round shim or gasket that was with the front seal package. What is that for?
The round gasket or shim 1st pic, next pic is the drivers side rocker bolts had these really thin washers, not on the passenger side?? I should have noted the washers position, they were in the bag with the rocker head bolts.
Jim, I wasn't supposed to open up holes in the head gasket for the steam holes was I? It lined up with everything that I could see. Where are the steam holes?
No, The Olds is unique and has 4 small holes that match the gasket. On the upper side. It may be possible to put the headgasket upsidedown and block those holes.
Pushrod length is important and should be measured or checked even though the length isn't particularly critical. The stock length ones should be fine but sometimes they aren't, especially if all the parts are not stock including the cam and lifters.
Hydraulic lifters typically have nearly 1/4" of internal adjustability so they can compensate for valve and seat wear. Valve recession used to be a big thing before hardened seats became common. An adjustable pushrod is used to find the length required to take out the slack without compressing the lifter and then the preload is added to get the final length.
Preload numbers vary rather widely. You may see values as low as .020" and as high as .080", I shoot for .060" because I do not like lifter tap and find that values around .020" almost always result in lifter tap at some point and .040" often does. At .060" I've never had an issue.
Some people will claim that more preload allows the lifter to pump up and cause valve float at a lower rpm, reducing the redline. My response is that the proper way to control valve float is not with a looser valvetrain but with a firmer spring.
Jim
Jim, True. On Jon's build which is almost identical, we used an adjustable pushrod and found the length of the pushrod I recommended for Scott. Heads milled, block decked, cam reground/smaller base circle and higher lift were all factors. The length is just slightly longer than stock. Stock 8.236, new 8.248. .012 longer. .050 preload figured.
I'm going to pull the heads off (only held by 3 snugged bolts) and verify I didn't cover any steam holes with upside down gasket. Thanks!
Took a head off to verify no holes are covered by the gasket and we're good. Gaskets work either way, so they're idiot proof, lucky for me! I got the lifters and pushrods in; used plenty of cam lube! I got the valley pan out and test-fitted it. Then I got the intake manifold cleaned up a bit. Needs a bit more cleaning. I watched some vids on setting valve lash and will be getting the rockers cleaned up and ready. I haven't really looked at the rocker assembly to assess whether its good to run, but I think it has so few miles since being built in 09 that its prob good!
Scott, you don't set valve lash with fixed rockers. No adjustment is necessary with hydraulic lifters. Don't forget to put the lash caps on the valves before the rockers. If you had to adjust, you would either shim or mill the rocker stands to adjust. When you are ready for the intake put a little gob of RTV where the rubber gasket meets the heads.
Just make sure that the lifters that are all the way down still require the pushrods to compress the internal piston maybe 1/16" when the bolts are snugged down and you'll have good preload. If your lash caps cause more that's fine as long as they don't bottom out. After they are bolted down you can press on the pushrod end of the rocker and if the lifters are dry they should be able to compress another 1/16" or more. Rather than shim or mill the pedestals I prefer to order new pushrods from Smith Bros. A set costs about $120 or so.
Jim
For those who don't know the extra large Rover valves Scott used have an installed height of 1.65 and the stock length Olds valves would be 1.70. The .050 lash caps restore the rocker geometry perfectly.
I did put the lash wear caps on and I was confused about the adjustment part; watched the wrong type videos. There were 4 shim washers on the drivers side which I reinstalled under the 4 head bolt holes on the rocker shaft (now I'm thinking this may be unneeded with new valves and pushrods, so I'll take them out before torquing to spec) I just snugged the bolts down but not too tight and I'm noticing 2 rods that are not under any compression and are floating around in the lifters. And there are 2 that are under full compression and those rods don't spin. That may be normal, you guys let me know. Should I torque the heads down to spec and check again? If I torque it down to spec and the valves that are fully open still have loose floppy pushrods; do I need longer pushrods?
Take the shims out. Once torqued down the pushrods in the lifters that are off the lobe should push down the plunger slightly and you can still turn the pushrod with no up and down movement. The lifters will pump up when running. I think you have to leave the rockershafts off until all the other headbolts are torqued as they are in the way.
Oh Ok, I'm taking the shims out and torquing it down to spec after I torque the other head bolts first.
Got it! Then I'll see where we are. Appreciate it!
I took out the shims and went thru the torque sequence and got everything at 55lbs. There's no longer any rods flopping around. The valves that are fully opened, those rods cant be rotated which seems OK, there's no spring left in those lifters. Is that OK? What exactly am I looking for to tell me it's good? Should I rotate the engine at this point?
Yep, The ones on the lobe will be tight. Line up your timing marks with #1 at TDC. Both lobes for #1 should be down. If not rotate again to line up. The lifters will be on the heel/base circle of the cam. The pushrods will be pushing down slightly but you should be able to turn them by hand and have no up and down movement or slack. We were perfect with an almost identical build. No lifter noise/tick at or after breakin.
Thanks Jim,
I still have to get the timing cover cut to accommodate the interference issue. I've got the new timing marker for the cover and will get that part ready as well. So I'm supposed to measure the gap on the valve stem and rocker arms when they are not compressed (valves closed) . Is that the measurement that tells me everything is good??
Scott, no measurement required with hydraulic lifters and fixed non-adjustable rocker arms. You've been watching too many videos on other motors. You may have a small wiggle at the rocker arms.
Scott, Hydraulic lifters are zero lash. The lash is taken up inside the lifter. You are thinking of solid lifters that have the gap measured between the valve and rocker.
That's right. Ideally as the rocker shafts are bolted down the pushrods on the #1 cylinder (@TDC-compression stroke) will be compressed about 1/16" into the lifters.
Jim
Thanks guys, and yes watching videos not related to my engine is useless! I got the distributor out and see that my hold down bracket isn't compatible with this timing cover even after I cut off the tab. I got one ordered that supposed to work.
I think we used one from an 80's Buick V6? Maybe SBC?
I could probably modify my hold down bracket but I got one coming. My intake cleaned up pretty well but I'm leaning towards getting the Jet Hot ceramic coating done. Jim mentioned it here and I think it's worth it with the heat soak issues, and it looks nice!
I use Cerakote. They have a nice silver that is air dry, no-polish with their highest performance stats. You sand blast your parts and spray it with a paint gun. Try to stay upwind.
Jim
Thanks Jim, I looked at their website and looks like a good product. Jet Hot will be more expensive to be sure. Waiting on an estimate from Jet Hot. Anything to help with vapor lock issues, until fuel injection happens.
You sure about vapor lock?
I had vapor lock initially pretty bad. I've done several things to reduce it. Carb spacer, return style fuel filter at the carb, louvered the hood. I learned to give full throttle on hot restarts etc. The idea of coating the intake for me is primarily cosmetic. The aluminum gets stained easily. Currently waiting on parts for the intake and probably should install the timing cover. I removed the tab that was interfering with the distributor clamp and should have the new clamp thursday.
Doing a dry fit with the timing cover, I now realize the bolts I removed and bagged and labeled are a mix of different bolts and not necessarily the correct bolts. I had ordered a ARP kit a while back that turns out isn't 215 specific, so it's not what I need. Some of them work and some don't. The water pump bolts aren't correct and the ones I took out are crap. So, I had to order another 215 specific kit to move forward. I'm not going through all this to use crap hardware. I'm using stainless for this area. Definitely using anti seize and thread sealant.
Scott, we used 215 specific stainless bolts.
That's what I ordered Jim after realizing some of my removed hardware is crap. The head bolts were OK, but new stainless bolts are worth the $$. I'm using the leftover ARP bolts anywhere it work's which is fine. I'm going through the MSD distributor and replacing some of its parts with new. It worked fine, but seeing that corrosion was surprising. Apparently that's a thing??
Changed my mind and sent the distributor to MSD for servicing. I watched a few videos of DYI repairs and when adding the cost to replace the parts that are corroded and getting the rusty reluctor off; I just decided to let a pro go thru it. One of the videos a guy said they only charged $110 to do his and mine may be more but the parts cost at least that much. Peace of mind thing I guess.
Getting ready to install the timing cover and water pump. The Stainless bolt kit supplier emphasizes the importance of the anti-seize (of course) and lowered torque settings. Do you guys torque down by a certain lower percentage (25%-30%). Looks like the ARP bolts can go tighter than the stainless. The bolt kit looks nice. Labelled really well.
I use.15 ftlbs. Sealer on the 4 that go by the upper water passages. Anti-seize on the others. Gray RTV on both sides of the gaskets.
You're talking about the 4 long bolts right? The old ones came out really oxidized (stainless). I've got Red, Black and Brown RTV. Getting the UltraGrey Permatex tomorrow. I don't want this stuff to leak, and I know this area is problematic.
Scott, the ones above and below the two main water passages.
I tighten according to the quality of the stainless bolts I use. I find that although there are some very cheap stainless available that comes in around grade 3 or so most of the better hardware store bolts are around grade 5 and are pretty much interchangeable with the factory bolts used on the cover and the accessories. Always use anti-seize on them. Be particular about getting a proper bead of sealant and in the right place. Try not to go overboard on it though. I realize it's something of a delicate balance on the timing cover particularly and sometimes a thinner layer on both parts is better than a thicker layer on just one. Same goes with the gasket if you use it. The main job of that is to make it easier to get good even contact.
Jim
I'm going to be careful to get enough to do the job without having giant blobs squeezed out on the inside.
We got the timing cover and water pump installed today. Of course there was 1 long bolt that was not long enough. The timing cover and water pump are slightly different than what came off. So one of the bolts didn't reach its home. So, after looking at the 4 long bolts that came out, there is one that is longer than the other 3. So I thought i was golden. I cleaned it up and put the sealant on it and went to tighten it; it only went about a 1/4 inch into the threads and stripped the female threads. So, I measured the depth of the hole and it's 5 1/2" deep. The longer bolt I took out is 5". The ones in the bolt kit are 4 1/2". None of the bolts in the ARP kit are even close to long enough. The water pump is obviously different than stock and I spent some time measuring the hole's depth before starting the install. I missed the 1" difference in that one bolt.
Going to the hardware store tomorrow, hoping they have a 5/16" 5 1/2" stainless bolt. I'm guessing not likely.
You may have to get a 6" and cut 1/2" off.
You're probably right. I'm hoping the 1/8" of stripped female thread doesn't come back to bite me.
Thread the 6" bolt in as far as it will go and measure what's left. Only remove that much, minus any washers or brackets you want to add. You may have more threads in the hole than you think you do.
Jim
Naturally the local hardware stores carry nothing in 5/16" stainless longer than 5 inches. Amazon has em ; $15 for one! But its 5 1/2 " so no shortening needed. Waiting on the intake manifold and distributor to get done, I guess I should clean up the oil pan and maybe paint it. Still need to order the clutch kit and decide if the flywheel needs turning.
Scott, make sure the oil pan flange is flat.
Yes, wondering if a new one would be worth it. This thing is over 50 years old. I'll get it out from under a bench and inspect it before I spend a day cleaning it. I'm assuming it's a stock Olds oil pan, but we'll see. I have to remember this block has Buick numbers but has the extra head bolt holes like an Olds block.
Can you even get a new oil pan? Buick & Olds 215 oil pans are the same.
I think the Rover 3.5 pan will bolt up but depth and pickup are different.
I did get the 5.5" stainless bolt in, so the timing cover and water pump are good to go. It appears the oil pans aren't available new. So, I'm going to use what I have after I clean it up. Too bad, since there are inexpensive pans for other SBCs.
Now I just have get the flange back to flat, then paint it.
Cleaned up and painted; high temp paint.
Looks great. Of course, high temp paint is not necessary.
Wasn't sure about that, so went overboard.
My Melling 20-IS1 oil pickup tube does not work with my oil pan. The oil pan hits the pickup filter in the back and the pan cant move forward to line up the bolt holes. Theres a 20-IS2, and I'm wondering if thats what I needed??
Scott, that is the one we used. It is for a 4.5" deep pan and the other was for a 5.25" deep pan. Try turning it around where it mounts. It is sort of a mid sump.
I'll flip it around and see. Thought about that but looking at the pan, it seemed like it wouldn't work turned the other way. Is there more than one 215 oil pan out there? (used of course)
Jon's pan looked like yours, but someone welded a baffle in. Put a straight edge across the pan rails and measure the depth of the sump. If about 5 1/2" you need the other pickup.
I measured it, it's 5.25". So I need the 20-IS2 from Melling. ??
Note: I fixed the part # typo.
Yep. Maybe that is the one we used?
Can there be 2 different depth oil pans with these Olds/Buick motors? It's no big deal, we'll get the other one.
I think they are all the same. Try centering the sump over the pickup and then sliding the oil pan back without touching the gasket and see if it clears.
I've always just bought the V6 pickup from TA. Never had an issue with it.
Jim
I called TA because they don't show the 215 in any of their pickup tube options. Their rep said there was nothing in their database that showed a tube for the 215. I told her there probably was one that was compatible. She asked me if I found out which one was compatible with the 215 to let her know and they would update their website. Mine came from Rock Auto which is where I reordered the Melling 20-lS2. Around $30
215 uses the same one as all the small block Buicks and also the V6. The big block may also use that one. I'm sure we put the 5/8" pickup on the 455. Too bad Tim retired. He knew all this stuff. Sherry isn't as knowledgeable. She does a decent job but she isn't Tim and she knows it.
Jim
I installed it as one pic shows facing rearward. Once installed the oil pan will not sit lined up to the bolt holes. It's about 1/2" or so back. The screen is hitting the pan. I pulled out my old one and it's obviously longer and angled a little differently. I get the new one Thursday I think, so fingers crossed.
Also if it comes down to it, it's possible to bend that tube a bit.
Jim
I think this pic shows the difference in the 2 pans. My oil pickup tube probably is meant for the one on the left. Its sump is moved back compared to the other one and its shallower (4.5"). That's where the interference is.
Scott, I didn't know there were two different pans!
I'm not sure that pic is of 2 Buick/Olds pans. But the guy was posting about the different oil pick up tubes on 215's and how to avoid using the wrong one.
I am always skeptical of some random person's statement as fact on a forum. Here & on MGExp, there are a lot of members whose opinions/statements that I trust. Of course, I have been a member of MGExp since 2995 & a member here since the beginning (2007).
According to a YouTube video (maybe he was the one that posted that info), the pan on the left is a Buick 350. On the right, is a Buick 300 pan.
I "think' the Buick 300 pan is very close to the same as the 215, so the Melling 20-IS2 should work for both. Still looking on the Olds 215. I was thinking it may hold 5 qts. of oil vs 4 for the Buick.
That oil pan pic in post #708 sure looks the same as my Buick 215 pan.
I got the new pick up tube in and it there is no interference that I can detect. The guy that posted the 2 pics of oil pans did state that the 215 pans are not interchangeable between other Buick / Olds motors. So, I got out my oil pan gasket and it has no bolt hole openings. No holes. Is that a thing? I can drill it out but why?
Scott, On ours the holes are punched and the plugs pushed out. I found out later that Felpro makes a nice cork gasket. Use black Permatex or The Right stuff on both sides of the paper gasket. I smear it on the pan to glue the gasket down and smear a coat on the gasket before you bolt the pan on.
Thanks Jim!
According to Rock Auto, the Olds & Buick 215 use the same gasket. The 300 & 340 have an offset on one side. Whereas, the 215 is fully straight on both sides.
I am curious as to what might be different with the Buick & Olds oil pans. I have friends with both. This is the first any of us have ever heard they were different.
I dont know if there is a difference. I'm by far the least knowledgable guy here. My first pickup tube said on the box or invoice (4.5") pan. Mine is 5.25". Is your Buick pan 5.25" deep?
And, Who would want an oil pan gasket with no holes? New one ordered.
Wow, Looks like a nice gasket if it had holes! Ours was gray paper.
Paper? I would use the FEL-PRO OS12992C. Same for Olds & Buick 215.
(https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/fel-os12992c_xl.jpg)
Yeah, Me too. I've heard rumors of a rubber gasket also for the 3.5 Rover if you could find it.
I ordered a FelPro gasket.
So then I looked at my valve cover gaskets from the same order and there were no bolt holes. I picked one up and bent it in the areas where a bolt hole should be,,,, the holes were there, I had to flex it to reveal there was a circle you had to remove the plug. I've done valve covers and oil pan gaskets many times, never saw these cork gaskets this way. So, I looked at the oil pan gasket, yep, its holes are there, they're just invisible unless you know how to find them. Another rookie mistake. Atleast i didnt order new valve cover gaskets.
Scott, The paper/fiber gaskets we had all were not punched out all the way. On the valve cover gaskets I glue them on the valve cover with Black RTV, then wipe the head side with grease so they can be removable. Also, to prevent the cork gasket from sliding out, just bolt down for light contact. Torque to specs next day after the RTV cures.
Many, many years ago(35+), I switched to ARP valve cover studs on the 350 in my '68 Camaro.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-200-7620
Is that because it's easier taking the valve covers off?
Quote from: Gswest236 on April 27, 2026, 09:36:02 PMIs that because it's easier taking the valve covers off?
The studs hold the gasket in place & the nuts drop right on. Easier than putting bolts thru & getting them started.
I have the nice set of Offenhauser valve covers, which I replaced because they aren't baffled (oil seepage at the filler and vent side opening) I got some original covers and painted them. Now they are in good shape, but thinking the Offenhausers would be a better choice.
Scott, on the Offy valve covers use this breather on one side and breather with PCV on other side:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/380787488409?_skw=twist+on+breather&itmmeta=01KQBYFQEA0P6RBFSYK99HHD19&hash=item58a8b3f699:g:bZUAAOSwGUpb2knU&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA0GfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xC3oqB7ICVVFpm%2B%2F1LpASRVXLWls1DX2Bnc7oQ7wi1L4LqGuKvnkSXhiw%2FuJs5u2YDmgiGfiXpbY7j84dOjpdxubaGHd1sdhzhX2kvQSrZU3D6oc%2BnsuyR%2FbBV6Ins0i2CNN2PUqdmQ%2BUc5YZAvDOSjPyPX9DaddPsKjLNcy4eH329WKb20WCWrt6UsV7RuaxdCk5oe4m5lq%2FYnJ%2FhJ0U1NTopZWwWMKPBgIPm3S27tnt86mZP1t8SB7Nmj5njSpcc%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7j3vv66Zw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201466997166?_skw=twist+on+breather&itmmeta=01KQBYFQEABHDT77DHAEW614GX&hash=item2ee85e69ae:g:eVkAAOSwLzdWRyeV&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA8GfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xDteVCnes5295OD%2FsO6MkaGSggDnXRK2MPKqElDTyVBd2xrVo9Wk8LxwjgOs%2BCV6FvoRfGucGt1Asf5ojGgE7r5QXgF6BwRHFEVGK4i5E4uNnx%2BfMQd%2ByVd6ENqGMTgcIc%2B22DwndiqaE%2BFDZIVCVACfJuxFBDvlhGDZ3Ec8JJ1eJ8VjUCgCx1jbZvu6YUCSHwK1mNbCC2siJSMEW%2FDTwHSCisJNS2Skg2E9A5IZE4vDmo4Mu4gb6dkYzWBPi6tnjAMUXA4GXx9ttOYXsiUe3t6XbM5m6TdylyaxXrm2veu7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMuPe-_rpn
https://www.ebay.com/itm/317676958116?_skw=inline+pcv+valve&epid=216036484&itmmeta=01KQBZEFKWT5WBDDYTP94ZNTDY&hash=item49f705b1a4:g:iacAAOSwMCFitKPS&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA0GfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xBp35Ig1s4xFhP6EGrw1o2hbGffwAetw9EVhg602TJ6tQFiOvQeYhou8D0jA%2FPClX0JcMMmU7VaTBvv14sEJo5Wpae574xrvivVUsrKzUczBMPu5avmBxUB9t%2FPZ9f5lPEapdMwcFtaUK8Bi9T0cYxH0tF77iB5IggFDH3BNW%2BhpyUx598xdNEzfC9uuAF6e4Wh4t%2FT3Zd4DTDkv0cm8NKthDeGAwpQGxH8j6V0b9l34i4yeU%2BIIKhiFfJlpoOaP7I%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5D6uf-6Zw
Thanks Jim! Ordered
Got this today and it looks like what I've always seen; holes! As mentioned here, the ones that aren't punched out are common, just not common to the inexperienced. I need an extra anyway and I have an extra set of valve cover gaskets already. Waiting on the intake and distributor to get done, and the valve cover parts Jim N. suggested to arrive, so I'll polish the finned valve covers while I wait.
Thanks Guys!
No question, the Offenhauser valve covers are the right choice! A little more cleaning and they're in!
I got the distributor back from MSD/Holley and it looks great! New Cap, Rotor and reluctor. Looks like they replaced everything. New decals too. The parts alone from MSD were well over $100. This was $150 shipped, so it's the way to go rather than me taking it apart and maybe putting it back together correctly.
Scott, Are you having the intake Jet-Hot coated?
Yes, it should be done soon. They got it on the 1st, ETA was 4/28. So I'll call em monday.
I cleaned one valve cover up, needs to be polished and should look nice. On to the other one. Still waiting on the oil fill Cap and PCV valve and it's cap.
Scott, this hose goes between the PCV and breather with the tube. 3/8" fuel/pcv hose to carb.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-46022
Summit was out of stock, here is one from Autozone:
https://www.autozone.com/p/dorman-pcv-valve-elbow-46022/319476
Ordered thru Autozone. Thanks!
After more cleaning the valve covers are good to go! They're going on next. Just need to RTV the gaskets onto the valve covers.
Scott, Look good!
Anyone know which oil pump priming tool works on these motors. I ordered a generic one that was for Small block and big block GM motors; it's not long enough. The collar prevents it from reaching the pump shaft.
SBC from Jeg's:
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/23640/10002/-1?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=WP_US_Bing_Shopping_555_Hybrid_Category_Catchall&utm_term=4581733695282758&utm_content=Oil
Make your own like this guy:
https://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/homemade-oil-pump-priming-tool.308236/
I use my old SBC priming tool. It does not have collars.
The collar on the one I got didn't fit in the opening, so it's useless. I had a oh-shit moment today installing the valve covers. Dropped a valve cover bolt and washer into the motor! I just installed the oil pan a few days ago. Heard it hit the oil pan. I rotated the engine on the stand and shook it, out dropped the bolt, but no washer. I could not get the washer top drop out. Off came the oil pan. Got the washer and then noticed I was still short one of the 5 bolts? Another rookie mistake, should have put a towel or something in the valley. I could have put the valley pan there which would have cought it. I'm going to use some high pressure air tomorrow to make sure that missing bolt isn't wedged in there somewhere. I rotated the motor multiple times making sure there's no interfearance; nothing catching so fingers crossed.
I just looked at the before and after pics of the Distributor I sent back to MSD for evaluation and parts replacement. It worked fine but we can all see the before pic is crusty. The other pic is what I got back for around $150. It's not mine, it's a new one or a new returned one. It's obvious it's not what I sent them. They're running $700ish new I think. I'm pretty impressed with MSD!
The hits keep coming! When I went to torque the first valve cover down today one of the bolts stripped the threads on the head. I was getting to about 5lbs on the torque gauge. Helicoil kit ordered. But after reading some stuff, I found a tip that if using a cast finned aluminum valve cover, the bolts may need to be longer than stock. I measured the thickness of the finned cover and it's more than twice the thickness of the stamped cover at the base. When I looked at the stripped area of the bolt hole and measured the depth, the 5/8" long bolt only engaged maybe 1/4" of the hole. The hole is about 3/4" deep. so, I ordered some 1" bolts and might have to grind a bit off to get them to work. But I might not need to use a helicoil to get the longer bolt to hold. We'll see!
Scott, it's a good idea to leave the valve covers off until you prime the oil pump to make sure you have oil at the rockers.
Once I get the new bolts, I'll just get them hand tight.
Second oil pump priming tool proves to be the wrong size. The tooth that engages the pump shaft has a collar that is too small to fit around the shaft. Am I supposed to get one for a V-6 like the timing cover? Ordered2, sent back 2; I'm 0 for 2, nice.
Scott, were they listed for old school, gen 1 SBC? You can make one like the link above or make one from an old large screwdriver you break the handle off.
Scott, also, you don't need the Chevy adapter bushings, just center in the hole and turn clockwise. The tube that fits over the shaft is helpful to keep it from slipping out of the groove. It takes a while, to fill the oil filter and all the galleys. Jon smoked his old cordless drill.
I use a 1/2" Milwaulkee Hole Shooter for that job and it isn't exactly happy about it but I can lock the trigger and go check the gages.
Jim
Hmm, my old Chevy priming tool worked fine on my 215 both times. I used a heavy duty corded drill.
I can use a screwdriver if need be. Just seems like there should be one that works out there.
Scott did you remember to tap for your oil gauge?
When I saw this tapped hole Jim, I thought I could use that. But now I'm thinking it won't see oil pressure there. I don't want to use the oil filter relocation thing I have which has the oil pressure line. What other places can I get oil pressure for the line?
I like this location. If you put grease on the tap you will prevent chips from getting in the motor. Your oil fitting on the adapter will have to be moved to this location.
I forgot quick reply can't add pictures!
Same area but on timing cover:
Another view:
The 215 used a plug on the oil pump cover/filter base that is drilled through and tapped for the oil pressure fitting. There are two plugs. One for the filter bypass with the light spring, and the other one for the high pressure relief valve that is drilled and tapped. That is where your sender line goes.
Jim
Quote from: BlownMGB-V8 on May 08, 2026, 07:25:45 AMThe 215 used a plug on the oil pump cover/filter base that is drilled through and tapped for the oil pressure fitting. There are two plugs. One for the filter bypass with the light spring, and the other one for the high pressure relief valve that is drilled and tapped. That is where your sender line goes.
That is where I put mine.
(https://www.britishv8.org/MG/CarlFloyd/CarlFloyd-D.jpg)
Scott has the Metric oil pump cover, not stock 215. His original was on the swivel adapter that he is no longer using.
His original looks like this:
Metric cover image:
Curtis on this site, has the Metric cover tapped opposite side of oil filter. Image is about 3/4 the way down on his page:
https://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson.htm
Thanks guys! I saved the photo Jim and will look at it when I start the drill and tap process. I say I don't want to use the swivel filter adaptor and I got the smaller filters, but in the back of my mind I fear that the engine's position may be slightly more forward than Jons and thats why the builder had to use the adaptor. To use the adaptor it looks like there's machining to the filter housing that has to happen. If I drill and tap for the oil line and find out later that I have to use the swivel adaptor, I guess I can plug the hole.
Put thick grease on the bit and tap and go slow. Looking at Wayne's page, your motor is all the way back like Jon's. You will have to dent the frame member where you untread the filter for clearance. You can see that in another of Curtis's images. A lot of guys used the swivel adapter before they knew the Metric cover and short filter would fit.
Looks like Curtis tapped into this flat spot on the right:
Looking at the oil line photo from Curtis' build; that spot on the back of the filter housing can be drilled and tapped without worrying about the shavings because with the filter off I'll have access to both sides of the hole. Great Pic and looking at Curtis' build, Holly Crap! He's obviously a machinist and did a fantastic job. His Fuel injection is awesome!
Curtis is a great asset of this community!
So I have what I think is the right tap. I'm new to drilling and tapping so the size is throwing me. It says 1/8 NPT on the female part of this tap. It measures 3/8 and the tap goes in nicely to the filter relocation housing. So, looking online it says I need a Q size drill bit. Looking further it say's a 11/32 bit is close. Should I get a special Q size bit to drill this out?
Pipe thread sizes are weird. What is the small diameter of the tapered thread of your fitting? I'd use a bit a hair smaller than that. That 90 may be too long to turn. You may want to get a more compact 90 or 45 instead. Or a straight fitting with a bend or slack in your line.
It measures 3/8 at near the tip inside the threads. I'll look for some fitting options at the hardware store tomorrow. First time seeing letters for drill bit sizes; it says Q size for 1/8 NPT? But it also said 11/32 was a close size in inches.
11/32" sound right.
Third time was a charm. This one seems to fit, the tooth is a little tight, but engages. I'll file down the paint off the tooth and it should be fine.
Come to think of it, the plug in the 215 (straight) cover is probably used on the filter bypass plug since that sees full pressure and the plug for the pressure relief would be on the ambient or spring side of the piston, and would not read oil pressure. So you wouldn't be able to read oil pressure from that point, which would explain why they changed the pick up point when they went to the angled cover. That point where Curtis tapped in sounds like about the best candidate.
If you look at a drill chart IIRC I think the tap size is an "R" drill. Since it's cast aluminum you can go 1/64 undersized with no problems.
Jim
So, 11/32" will be closest regular size? I might even have one.
I started to drill a pilot hole and as I'm looking at it from the back I now understand why Jim N. was saying I'd need a straight or 45 fitting instead of the 90 I have. There's no space to spin the 90 into place the way the back is shaped. Need a new fitting!
Scott, Looks like Curtis used a straight fitting.
Ordered the straight fitting for monday. Thanks
Of course, the Depot had every fitting except this one. I hate making Bezos richer
I'm waiting on the straight fitting before I go any further with the tap. I'm assuming I'll need to go all the way or nearly all the way in order for the fitting to go in flush with the back section.
Scott, it won't hurt if it sticks out inside a little, it won't hit anything. Use Teflon tape on the threads to prevent leaks.
Got it, teflon tape. I measured the space in there, so it can go all the way in and not touch anything. The tap is working well.
I'd just go the depth of the threads on your old fitting.
For tapered pipe taps you should go in 2/3 to 3/4 of the thread length, at which point you should have about 2 threads that the fitting screws in by hand before it starts to get tight. The seal is in the threads so it needs to be able to get fully tight before you run out of threads.
Jim
OK, That's why I stopped until I get the right fitting. Don't want to go too far in with the tap, but far enough to seal. Thanks
The Intake came back from Jethot.
Scott, looks like you got your breather caps came too. Looking pretty shiny! Did you do the headers too?
I had sandblasted and painted the headers with high temp paint not too long ago, so they should be good to go. I have to look at them again to be sure.
I finishing drilling and tapping the hole and installed the new fitting with Teflon tape. Looked great! Then I looked at the female fitting that connects the oil line and had a heart attack. It looked like the fitting would not have enough room to rotate onto the new fitting. So, I got the fitting off the line and thank God it just clears enough to turn! Didn't think about that or I would have drilled the hole further over for clearance. Got Lucky for a change!
Very nice!
A little touch up and the headers will look fine. The Jet Hot coating would be nice though. At this point putting shiny parts back on is providing immediate gratification.
I went about getting the distributor ready and thankfully the MSD/Holley guys were kind enough to send my old wire plug with the new (Remanufactured I'm sure) distributor. I wished they would have cut it above the soldered wires so I could see which wire went to each of the 2 new wires, they're different colors. I took pics and I have a shot that I'm pretty sure shows the red wire connected to the orange/black wire. Just to be sure I called MSD and got a tech guy to help me. Problem is he wanted me to look at the MSD control box, it's a 6AL Multispark unit from 17 years ago. The box was installed on the passenger side fire wall behind the A/C unit. They must have done the AC after the fact and didn't consider access as a priority. I already took the AC components out of the engine bay; it had a leak and would not cool. The AC hoses were run through the inner fender well and fiber glassed in place. So, replacing a leaking hose was not going to be easy. Out came the AC unit which was a 3 bandaid job! now I have access to the box but it doesn't matter, the wires have been altered somewhere between the box and the distributor so there's nothing I can figure by looking at the box. I'm just going to wire it up red to the orange and white to the other one. Anybody want an AC unit? It's slightly damaged.
Scott, MSD has a wiring diagram for the 6AL box I'll post but you may want to do what Jon and I did and use a GM 4 pin unit.
Here's the diagram:
https://documents.holley.com/6425.pdf
Thanks Jim, The MSD guy had me go their website and we pulled up the wiring diagrams. All my wires are wrapped in elec tape and what comes out to the distributor is red and white wires which aren't MSD wires. So, along the cars life someone has gone in and connected these 2 wires to the original wires. Somewhere in the bundle of wrapped wires there's the original ones connected to the red and white ones that were connected to the distributor. What is the 4 pin GM connector your talking about and how would I use that here?
This pic shows how the wires were connected before I sent it off. The red looks like it goes to the orange.
Jim, the diagrams you post show 4 wires coming from the dizzy. I've got only 2.
Posted the wrong diagram. This one will help you identify the wires when you untape them. If you look under the distributor cap you will find two VR wires, one trigger and one ground. It'll be easy to match up now.
This is the last piece of the puzzle:
4 pin HEI module is normally in the distributor in 75-80 GM V8's. It would replace the MSD 6A box.
I keep using the Quick Reply!
4 pin HEI diagram.
Electrical tape has no place in a car.
Jim
Is it really electrical tape or standard vinyl wrap on the harness?
Not sure which tape, it might be vinyl. It's black and I assumed it was electrical tape. In the mean time, I'm getting the accessaries cleaned and organized and will be getting new hoses and a new belt next. I've seen it's recommended to pour the new oil in the valley before installing the intake manifold. Not sure if that is important since the motor wont be started in the near future.
I think previous owner spliced in wires to extend to distributor. If you open the PDF file above it shows color code from distributer to MSD box. I would splice in correct color codes from box and do it right.
I wonder if I can get the correct wires with the correct connector. I'll have to check the MSD website. I'll unwrap the wires and see what's been changed and maybe why.
Scott, I don't know if this newer harness on Ebay will fit yours, but you can put your serial # in and see what comes up. I would cut the existing wires and use same gauge and color wire. There are connectors that have solder and heat shrink built in.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/406755419484?_skw=msd+6al+wiring+harness&itmmeta=01KRKSTBW0A7CZPHVFAXV7JETZ&hash=item5eb483255c:g:sN8AAeSwTU5qBOvn&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA8LB2JXbe%2Bh2pdWBqbR2c2DtYXgTUVcVVE4KFemJJr54oAOrPrRQ2WrnPqjNnXP1iwVDQmqYAx%2BS3cZJu8bAfDc4xvApLcOIAmtZBZHV8k1ND3aRvpcK8WEUqpbcgkAG4A3h2Zx4yYYi05ODKwklFtPut32knOTDgRPlNKvxEpYKghML25%2BQikqHdevuGGLmu8OxWr8OkFiZGWApLLCkbaelxlbNI%2F3OP6j8k1NAo7FBOssC6rz2%2FJn09pBKzlSuIH0LHLGyjf%2FbpmASYfaGvx%2FczvF9g5DiAyZ1Ai1lBh5uKdaG%2BLyQET5jx0zi%2FEOL%2FMQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMnr7p-cRn
Scott, I've used these on boat and utility trailer lights about 5 years ago and they still work good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/205615894252?_skw=14+gauge+solderseal+heatshrink+connectors&itmmeta=01KRKV2HMDN4BPHYMJPNA07WFA&hash=item2fdfa98eec:g:DYEAAOSwqQtoGXw4&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAABEGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xACCqYntUnT%2FXsTDFIfkdcz5PK6z6rcbxB7jhyi06HKAuNaPph%2F4kvdUrG4IDiCu%2F0nFYB4nVgHjx4yOl3WSCT3d02mvG8P4y4lWZTRAX79buVpd%2FmK4XFMoI3T03zRfUNqPnE%2FOn0gViAJ9E0out8fy472Xag8yx9zj2zjC%2F7vVEcdHYiqry3n%2B763h36FgiaYoJ1uShsCISM1sxERVFygTAQlyzKYWFfZ5ZpZrIeAIWU2As%2Ba7Vnrz%2FTj7HbstI07zS7NWY373uvQw7Bg32YntOMD7xC3voXpZDw%2FpGcviJ7qYj%2BjiqxNSxFYkChnVIFom2iwb94ykplpe4DJr1%2BX%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7ibivvEZw
Video instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8knwiNQhPuI
Great, I ordered the wire harness and heat shrink solder connectors.
I unwrapped the wires back enough that I'm not seeing a splice of the red and white wires. I'm not sure this control box is the same as what we're seeing on MSD's site. I haven't seen a Multispark 6AL anywhere. But at this point I don't see a black/orange wire or a Black/Violet wire coming from the box.
But there are Red and White wires. I guess I have to remove the box.
This is my model box on Ebay. The wires look like mine. Red and white wires can be seen. I'm wondering if the wire colors changed after they stopped making this ignition box.
Black/orange+ to (violet) and black/violet- to (green) from distributor. At the plug it changes from the MSD box to green and violet. In that picture the plug with the green and purple wires above the box plug into your distributor plug.
When I type in model #6420 (which is on the box) on MSD's site nothing comes up. The only thing close is this model which isn't the same but it is Multiple Spark Discharge. The part # Wayne Ridley has for the box is 803033. MSD tech said that isn't in their system. So, Holley bought MSD and maybe some older stuff wasn't kept in the system.
Either it was hooked up wrong or the wiring was changed between the distributor and box. The diagram I sent on the last page /post #811 shows where all the other wires go. The one you ordered on Ebay has the plug with purple and green wires that plugs into the distributor plug in the top of the picture.
I took the box off the fire wall thinking I could unplug the wiring harness. Theres a plug with the green and violet wires but the rest of the wires are hard wired inside the box, no plug. The pic is the diagram on the back of the box. The green and violet wires I marked their location and they were water temp sensor from the intake manifold and another sensor on the manifold. So, At this point I'm looking at A new Digital MSD6AL box #6425 for $350. The condition of the wiring is so nasty and the wires that are color coded are going to the wrong place in some cases and have been spliced in multiple areas. I'm thinking starting fresh is the way to go. What I don't understand is it was working the way is is wired.
This is what I'm considering.
I personally know of 3 that failed in the last two years. The older ones like yours were far more reliable. Your diagram shows green and purple to magnetic pickup(distributor) coming out of the bottom. If you have to, can you take the cover off and wire as I suggest?. The green and violet wires to the sensors have nothing to do with the MSD box.
I appreciate the input! Looking at the wiring after unraveling all the tape; it is too sketchy for me. The way its run thru the firewall it looks like they did it the way the AC hoses were done, some kind of filler as opposed to a rubber grommet. I can't unplug the wires as they are hard wired. I can't turn or move the box much because the way the wire bundle is run/attached to the fire wall. It's a mess with a bunch of spliced in random colored wires. (some of which aren't ignition related) And they're all absolutely soaked with oil. So, for my mental wellbeing, I'm better off starting over with new. If I could pull the box and wires out, put it on a table and figure out what each wire is, I'd attempt that. But, I can't so with my zero electrical know how, a new box with instructions and new wiring harness is very appealing.
Scott, It would be easy on the bench. You cut off the wires about a foot away from the box. You would cut the plug off the new Ebay harness and match the colored wires by size and use the solderseal connectors. Sounds like the whole car needs to be rewired! We are going to use a Speedway 12 circuit wire harness in Jon's car. The diagram on the back is really the same as the one I sent, only the distributor plug is separate. None of those wires need to go through the firewall. You just need to find a wire that is hot with the key on. I'll send an image of the 4 pin HEI on another engine similar to how we mounted Jon's. You could mount it on the firewall or fender too. I think it is a better option and much less expensive.
4 pin HEI:
Here's our harness:
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/12-Circuit-Mini-Fuse-Universal-Hot-Rod-Wiring-Harness-Kit,2352.html
OK, I appreciate the help. I think if I pull the box and wires out, I'll then be able to see what's goin on. I think they wrapped all the wires going into the engine bay together; that's what makes it confusing to me. There's not a bunch of ignition wires to deal with. So at that point I'll figure out which direction to go. Thanks!
Didn't get the ignition box out today, lost power for a while. But at least I got a package.
Cool! There is red, black and white heatshrink to cover the splices and make them almost invisible.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/374963966998?_skw=white+heat+shrink&epid=8037953461&itmmeta=01KRQ4MY83ZRAB8ZF1E3QDY68A&hash=item574d981416:g:z8QAAOSwclJlGop9&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA8GfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xDgJnbalSN9yLrRGLm6nst1qQHHARPQAymQiJ%2F2f9B0WMOgKd7tl14%2BPDoYlPALya4DIbvoeZ18rVyvrB4FO0mNf1E5jZLbc9Sds3EaSwQ0S%2B58TZmFjzZxmWPxmU2gH%2BbsFlqjl8j%2Bg7gO80FSE1anNc5RsP%2BrFM5wP07abkahokNwfZHcyyCl--VrhrhqcFIckcgyrpTvUBtx%2BvkMk3Rm%2F2PLE9O4FkQTQpdqwiQl4BOnajb5eGgfCSXYCWRGdFhIePAQJhjqXvjBnM9u8QHkkQ83g0lOGw%2B9R%2BBv%2BfBFsw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6Lk0-TFZw
Nice! Another package coming.
I've used some of those and they are OK but really the jury is still out. Overall I still mostly use the heat shrinkable crimp ones with the hot glue inside. They are faster and seem just as reliable. These take a lot of heat to work right, the wires can't have any oxide on them, and stray ends can puncture the insulation when it's hot. Overall probably the best way to use them is to smooth and pre-tin the ends of the wires before inserting them into the connector.
Jim
I guess I'm probably a carmudgeon and that I'm hopelessly old school, but at points in my career I've been responsible for spec'ing electronic automotive components and also for designing wire harnesses for heavy duty commercial trucks.
I'm extremely skeptical of MSD, and particularly skeptical of their boxes. It seems like every racing paddock I've ever been in has contained some poor sod fiddling with a broken MSD6AL. And didn't Pete Mantell have to replace an MSD6AL at a BritishV8 meet one year? My recollection is that he got a replacement from an auto parts store, that it was dead on arrival, and that he had to procure yet another one to get going. So I really think you're far better off without one. Keep things simple. And generally, in any case at all where you can choose OEM parts over blingy aftermarket crap - I would do so.
When wiring things up, I try to avoid making inline splices. I prefer the serviceability of connectors and specifically I strongly recommend using Delphi/Packard Metri-Pack connectors wherever possible. I use the proper crimping tool, and if I've got any doubt I back the crimp up with solder (careful not to use too much or to overheat the insulation.)
Where I must use inline splices: I've never trusted a crimp that's made overtop of an insulator or a solder joint that's made with a heat gun. Those things might work, but I don't trust them. Instead, I use a splice clip and I certainly back it up with solder (applied with an iron). Then I cover the splice with dual-wall (i.e. adhesive lined) heat shrink tubing. In cases where more than one lead enters one end of the heat shrink tube, I have a little trick. I slice a thin sliver of glue-gun adhesive and use it to supplement. Companies that make OEM harnesses buy adhesive ready-made to be used like this... but I've never seen it in a catalog or online. Upon inspection, you should be able to see the adhesive has sqeezed out slightly around the full circumference of every lead.
Thanks guys! I'm looking at some of those Delphi connectors; not cheap, but probably worth it. I did get the box out and am waiting for the replacement harness. They must not have had the harness when they installed this box, so they "custom" wired it up. My aim is to get the correct wires
going from the box to the engine bay. And get rid of all the red and white wires. Apparently that's what they had and thats what they used, everywhere.
I'm partial to the Deutsch connectors myself but they have gotten pretty expensive. I'm not completely happy with their length of pin engagement but their connector bodies are the best I've seen and the locking mechanism is superior. A decent assortment now costs somewhere around $200 but the bodies and pins are available separately from Del City and others.
I'm with Curtis regarding MSD. Got one in the spares cabinet I should have thrown away long ago, it just quit for no good reason and they seem to have a failure rate that is way too high. Their claim to fame, the multi-spark never gave any advantage that I could tell. Just another fancy box with sub standard internals. OEM parts are much more reliable and do the job as well or better. I suspect there is one or two common components inside the box that regularly fail but with no schematic available good luck finding it. I found the Ford EDIS to be way better and now use the GM COP. No way I'd waste any more time on MSD under any circumstances.
Curtis' approach to wire termination shows his industry experience but most of us aren't out to build multi-million mile rigs so we aren't as likely to dedicate quite as much time to it. We probably should but it does take a lot of dedication. If you are doing a new re-wire with cross linked wire like AAW sells and going exclusively to gas sealed connectors then yes, it probably makes sense. Otherwise maybe not quite so much and slightly lesser methods can apply. A crimped and soldered joint is always going to be the most reliable and with proper preparation need not take any longer than a simple insulated crimp, bearing in mind that solder can cause embrittlement in copper wires though I can't say I've seen that myself. Fortunately we have several good options and you can pick what you think will work best for you. Unfortunately MGBs were made before gas sealed electrical systems were ever a thing so it's darned near impossible to convert everything over. (And yes wipers and key switch I'm thinking of you.)
Jim
Thanks Jim, All the electrical stuff worked well before and I'll be happy if that's still the case after the motor's back in. The ignition box and new distributor are getting rewired mainly to make it easier to diagnose electrical or ignition issues. I had no electrical issues before; the MSD system worked well. It is a little scary to hear the bad reviews of MSD systems here. I'm hoping Jim N. is right and the older MSD boxes are more reliable!
While I'm waiting on some more parts, wire etc, I'm looking at something that's bothered me from day one of owning this car. I don't know a thing about car engineering but this brake junction could not be in a worse place! Run over the wrong thing and both brake circuits could be lost, Right? I have to fix this.
That junction is usually in the engine compartment not the wheel well!
Yep, somebody has gotten creative there and not in a good way. That looks like the shuttle valve which should be up close to the master cylinder on the inner fender.
Jim
I'm wondering if I could fab up some type of shield with stainless mesh and avoid redoing all those hard brake lines. I've bent brake lines before and it's not too difficult, but doing a shield seems less complicated. We're obviously not looking for originality but functionality. I'm curious where you guys have this junction in your rigs. Looking at this and a few other things on this car, I get the impression patience and motivation were waning at some point and things were thrown together to finish it up. It happens.
Normally found right below the master on the fender. The one in the picture has a bolt where the switch goes. I use a T for the front brakes and a single line for the rear brakes.
It's only function is to light the dash indicator if the hydraulics fail on one side or the other, normally something you'd notice. Many have re-purposed that slot in the dashboard and eliminated the shuttle switch for cleaner brake plumbing. OTOH, others haven't minded replacing and centering the switch to make it functional and leak free again. Up to you how you deal with it, I long ago went to dual masters and a balance bar whilst many others have upgraded to brake boosters. Today there are electric brake pumps available and other options. I don't see that the old shuttle valve gives much of a benefit myself.
Jim
Electric power brakes would be nice. I put electric power steering on a Land Cruiser I owned; it was great! I'm getting down in the weeds at this point when I should be focused on getting the motor back in. The brake lines would all need to be redone to relocate the junction block (or whatever it's called). I'm leaning on making a shield to protect it, but after the motor is done.
Each step here is a first for me. I ordered some stuff from Edelbrock that helps hold the valley pan in place so the RTV doesn't get messed up when installing the intake. The valley pan was not preformed in the shape it needs to be. I know how important it is to not have vacuum leaks in this area and since I've never dealt with this type of intake (only intake I've removed/replaced was on a diesel toyota motor,2H w/turbo) so here's another thing I could easily screw up. I see online that the rubber gaskets for the front and back of the intake are not recommended to use. 1/4" of high temp RTV is what the pundits say is better. What is consensus here?
Scott, I preform the valley pan the best you can and use Ultra gray around all ports both sides and let set an hour or so to cure a bit and set stratght down and not smear. That is one motor I use the rubber gasket with a small blob of uUtra black permatex at each corner.
Rover developed a valley gasket for the engine that is neoprene coated steel on both sides and that's the only one I would use. It does a great job of sealing. You still should use some sealant at the ends and corners just to be sure.
Jim
That intake gasket would be better but I've heard you have to use the Buick end seals and clamps and may need a little trimming on front and back. The best would be to get some .040 thick gasket material and cut the port area off just below the flange and use them for templates to make conventional gaskets.
Are the clamps you're mentioning one of these? Unfortunately I cant find the picture of this part coming off the motor, but it looks like this is where it lives. I have a call in to D+D who shows a Rover composite intake gasket on their website.
That is it.
I'm going thru the wiring on the ignition box, finally got some wire in, (color coded). I put a shot of one of the connectors I removed and just now noticed the red and white wires are switched at the connector?? Why would this be?? Am I missing something here?
I thought you were going to the new harness? The plug might go either way.
The plug can only plug this way. I'll assume this mismatched connector is all they had and just used it even though it's stupid. If you know that you reversed the colors and take it into account, it'll work. The next guy that works on it will be scratching his head. I'm not rewiring the whole car. Everything electrical worked fine before and I'm only redoing the stuff thats obviously wrong or I just don't like. Trying to keep it simple. The keyed 12v wire is just getting a connector, the main power wire to the battery is just getting a connector , the main ground is being replaced and going to the battery ground instead of whatever it was connected to in the cabin. The tach wire is fine and not changing. The wires will match the wiring diagram on the MSD box. I'm adding wire connectors so the box can be removed without cutting the wires. I'm going up a gauge on the wires going to the coil and distributor from 18AWG to 16AWG. The MSD connectors and wires are 18AWG so it's not changing resistance I don't think. I know nothing about this stuff; Thats why anybody reading this should chime in if I'm going down the wrong path. I appreciate it!
Scott, I think the Ebay harness was identical except the violet and green distributor wires are separate on yours. Definitely wire the box as the schematic shows.
I've got the ignition box rewired and bolted back in. Waiting on the Rover Valley pan/intake gasket to arrive. At that point I guess new oil goes in the valley and the intake goes on. I've got a carb rebuild kit for the Edelbrock carb. I've rebuilt SU carbs but never one of these. Another first and another wave of apprehension.
Realistically, I would lean more towards just buying a new carb if they haven't gotten too expensive. Most of those seem to just work right out of the box.
A new development that I think holds a lot of promise adds what is essentially an IAC to the conventional carb. What this does is manage and regulate the mixture at idle and part throttle by using the O2 sensor to optimize the fuel mixture dynamically to within very close tolerances by incrementally opening a passage to allow more air into the mixture under electronic control. I believe this is available as an add-on to a standard carb and I think it holds a lot of promise for fuel economy. A carb is pretty good at fuel atomization and evaporation on the way to the cylinders. Better than fuel injection in several ways, although you do have to deal with fuel drop out and float angles, etc. But it's another step bringing carbs and EFI closer together.
Jim
Carb Cheater. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNLud6_x3UM
Remember to use Dino oil for break in. I use Valvoline VR1 10-30 for break in and after with the flat tappet cam.
I've been using that oil from day one, previous owner did as well. A new Edelbrock 500 cfm carb is around $600 or so delivered. My ultimate goal would be a Holley Sniper setup, but thats a down the road plan since it's probably triple the cost. I'll study up the rebuild process for the carb, since I have the rebuild kit already. If it's too far over my head, I'll go to a plan B (new carb) or maybe the carb cheater. EFI is on the wish list though.
Thanks guys
The Rover pan is in and now I realize that's what was installed before. No question it's a better piece than the other one I bought. I'm seeing a lot of people say not to use the rubber end gaskets but rather use high quality RTV. I think Jim N. mentioned it wasn't necessary on these motors. So, I'm supposed to use the RTV around the water jackets, but nowhere else on these gaskets? I know to use it in the 4 corners where the rubber seals meet the heads.
Yep, did the new clamps and rubber end gaskets work or did you use your old ones?
Yes, I used the new rubber gaskets and the end clamps. I managed to not strip any bolts which is nice. The end clamps I didn't try to torque further than 10 lbs, too scary! Now I'm trying to figure out what size bolt goes in the timing marker. Looks like fine threads, but nothing I have works. One coarse threaded bolt I have starts to go but it's obviously the wrong TPI.
That bolt is probably Metric because the cover was for a V6 originally.
I thought metric too. I'm taking the one I have that almost goes in and getting one with fine threads and a metric one in the size range. I called Silver Seal; they don't provide the bolt and don't know the size.
I got 2 different bolts from Lowes that I thought might work. 1/4" 28, negative. I got a M6-1.00 16, nope! I went through all my misc bolts and nothing is that size and thread pitch. I have a tap and dye set, so I guess I I could tap it to a normal size?? TA sells the covers that were more expensive than Silver seal's and they sell the timing markers. No Idea if their bolts sizes are the same as mine though.
AI says various sizes depending on year, 1/4"-2.0 M6 x1.25 but also mentions 5/16 and M8 which are too big.
I got a 1/4"-20 bolt and just in case I got a 5/16"-18 bolt. The 1/4" bolt wouldn't go and at that point I was going to tap and dye to the 5/16-18 size. Before I did that I thought to run a 1/4"-20 tap through the hole hoping the threads maybe were messed up. Apparently they were, because the 1/4" bolt went in with no issue after running the tap thru. So, I cleaned up the harmonic balancer and gave it a fresh coat of paint. I think I'm close to being ready to set initial timing. And yes I preserved the white mark for timing on the balancer which also has a grooved mark elsewhere on the outer surface. Is that because the balancer works on multiple motors?
It should be a 300 balancer for your crank. I wonder if that other mark was added for total advance? Is it to the left or right of your white mark? Looking at your timing indicator you may be able to tell. I think after the cam is broken in I would set total advance at 34 degrees at 3500 RPM. If it kicks back cranking set at 32. Before you do timing prime your oil pump.
With the balancers keyway at 12 o'clock which puts the timing groove at 12 o'clock the white paint mark is at 9 o'clock. I was reading up on the balancer install techniques and saw that these things can spin and create issues with timing and vibration. Checking that the keyway is in line with the timing mark is one way to determine if it has spun. It lines up but that white mark is way off.
Best way is to find top dead center with #1's valves both closed and see what lines up. If it doesn't line up, go around again. Is the white mark about 12-16 degrees past the 20 degree mark on the indicator? That would be the Total timing advance including centrifugal in the distributor. I always time that way at 3500 RPM and initial or static timing is usually 14-17 degrees, where ever it lands. Keyway does not always line up with mark. I've always sent my old damper to Damper Dudes.
I haven't got that far Jim. Damper Dudes reconditions these things? I see they sell them. I think this ones fine but what do I know! I'm going to install it and get it to TDC and see where the marks line up. Go from there. Thanks
They used to. You are probably fine. A lot of time the rubber is cracked or you would have visible separation or misalignment. Another trick is to line up the initial timing at 12 degrees advance instead of zero, closer to where it will run at first start up. Mark the cap at #1 and inside the distributor where the rotor will point at #1.
OK, thanks! I'll be gone for a few days and will be working on it when I get back.
An accurate zero @ TDC is usually done before the heads go on using a piston stop and a degree wheel but can be done afterwards in several ways, mostly involving the spark plug hole. Keep in mind it sits at an angle to the piston so it's a more delicate process.
You can buy or make either a piston stop or a dial indicator mount that screws in there, then with a degree wheel or marks on the damper, mark the same point on both sides of zero, which will then be the mid-point.
Jim
Quote from: mgb260 on June 14, 2026, 04:49:13 PMAnother trick is to line up the initial timing at 12 degrees advance instead of zero, closer to where it will run at first start up. Mark the cap at #1 and inside the distributor where the rotor will point at #1.
Exactly the way I did it when I recently replaced my intake gasket. Found compression stroke with my finger in the spark plug hole while I rocked the car (in 5th) with my legs. Lined up the mark at 12 degrees & dropped in the distributor. Fired right up. Checked timing with timing light. Still 12 degrees. Tightened down the distributor & drove it 457 miles to the British V8 meet in Canfield, OH.
Thanks guys. I'm back, so tomorrow I'll get the balancer on and get to TPC compression. I'll put it at 12 degrees and go from there. I still have to prime the oil pump. I changed my mind on the headers and am getting them ceramic coated by Jet Hot. In for a penny in for a pound,, great.
Naturally when I went to install the harmonic balancer I found out the tool I got had the wrong bolt size. It looks to be 5/8' and my Amazon tool is smaller. Was supposed to work on most SBC motors, most but obviously not all. I ordered another kit with multiple bolt size options including 5/8'-18 threads. AI says there are Metric bolts as well in some of these applications.
Scott, I've had to use a puller to remove, but never a tool to install. Slip on the keyway and tap on with rubber hammer or wood block. Then you tighten the bolt to I think 140-150 ft lbs, you will have to wedge a screwdriver in the flywheel teeth to hold.
OK, thanks Jim! I used my puller to get it off. There are those out there that warn against damaging the crank thrust bearings. I haven't tapped it with my soft hammer to see how easy it would go on. But I'm being extra careful doing some of this stuff for the first time.
Jon's damper pushed on by hand.
You're right, it slid on with very little effort and a plastic mallet. Thanks!
I got the balancer on and found TDC compression and it lines up with the original mark. The other mark is 45 degrees before the actual mark. I blacked out the that ones paint and got a white marker on the correct line. I temporarily installed the distributor with it at TDC, but I'll remove it and when I go to put it in permanently I'll set it at 12 degrees advanced and put it back in. Should I wait until I'm ready to do a start up to prime the oil pump or can I do it now?
You can prime it now. Use a corded drill, and it may take awhile to prime. You will have to hook up the gauge or plug the line. If the line will reach, you could put in the oil fill hole in a valve cover.
I was wondering how to keep the oil from shooting across the room from that oil line port. I have to see if I can get the motor close enough to connect the pressure gauge line.
You can use a tire pressure gage if you have the right fittings. Some gages have a screw off end.
Jim
I got a 1/4" flare fitting cap to cover the oil line port on the filter housing. Then went about priming the oil pump. It took awhile to be sure. But the oil eventually made it up to all 16 rocker arms. The drill was very warm! At that point we got it back to TDC compression and put the mark at 12 degrees advanced. Put the distributor in with the rotor pointing at #1 cylinder. At this point I'm looking at this aftermarket distributor hold down clamp (the original will not work with this aftermarket timing cover) and it doesn't seem right. I haven't tightened it down completely but it spins after a few turns with the wrench which makes me think it's not good. Is there a better piece that works with these metric covers?
Nice, you don't have a vacuum advance can to worry about. We used an aftermarket SBC distributor clamp that looked just like yours, only chrome. I think we used a nut, one size too big as a washer to level it and a longer bolt. The Metric V6 cover must have used one with a step in it.
I put some washers in to level it some and maybe that's all that's needed. But, the old one can be modified to work which is what I'm going to do. The pics show I have to open up the old one's bolt hole and trim off the back some.
My idea of modifying the old dizzy hold down clamp turned into a several hour boondoggle. I know nothing about metallurgy but this thing is hard. 4 broken bits, 3 bandaids and it still won't bolt on. I forgot I have a hydraulic press and was trying to bend it flatter with a vise, then a BFH; no flatter than when I started. So, I tried the press to flatten it out, big mistake. Apparently all the heat cycles hardened it to the point that it was brittle. You machinist out there probably would have warned me. Oh well, I finally put the aluminum aftermarket one back on with some washers underneath to make it work and it seems to hold it firm.
We got the Alternator brackets figured out after looking thru some photos. Of course it wasn't without a catch. My photos of the alternator bracket configuration was lacking. Turns out the original timing cover had bolt holes that the new one doesn't have. The main alternator bracket was custom made (I think) with these holes in mind. The new timing cover doesn't have that one hole that captures one of the 2 lower bolts of the bracket. I can make a bracket to run from that right side lower bolt hole to a bolt on the water pump that will add strength to the bracket. I might have to source a slightly longer water pump bolt. I also need a longer bolt and a spacer to make the alternator adjustment bracket line up.
We got some hardware to install the Alternator brackets. I think we're good: the belt is new and the tension is good. Had to use some large SS nuts for the spacer ( a more elegant spacer will be sourced eventually). I think next I'm getting the carb cleaned up and at least partially rebuilt. It worked fine before but sitting for over a year with crappy fuel in it may have caused an issue.
I got the correct carb rebuild kit in and will start down that rabbit hole this week. Next will be cleaning up the LT77 Rover 5 speed. I still need to get new clutch parts ordered. I have to look at the flywheel again; it may need resurfacing, but I doubt it. The only slight issue was downshifting into 2nd would sometimes resist until more pressure was applied to the shifter, maybe a synchronizer. It did not leak or whine, so I'm inclined to leave it alone. I've rebuilt a Toyota Land cruiser transmission once and it seemed to work fine after so I'm obviously an expert...
I'll degrease it, maybe paint it.
It's pretty normal for a transmission to resist downshifting since the synchro has to speed up the countershaft and input shaft to do it but it can be made much worse if there is any drag from the flywheel and pressure plate to the clutch disc when the clutch is disengaged. Angular misalignment can do that so using an indicator to check your bellhousing is a good idea.
Jim
Thanks Jim. Are you referencing the clutch alignment tool or something different to check bell housing alignment?
I got the carb rebuild started; everything has been removed that needs to be removed. It's all bagged and tagged. The Chinese Amazon carb rebuild kit that I got first probably would be fine for those that do these rebuilds all the time. The Edelbrock kit came with instructions which a guy like me needs. Got the clutch assembly out and it looks like the flywheel should get resurfaced, the pressure plate and disc will be replaced. The transmission will get cleaned up next.
Scott, Progress!
Slow but sure!
I got the carb done today. Was waiting on a new accelerator pump from Edelbrock; their kit didn't have one. The Chinese kit had one but of course it didn't work with the stock S clip. For anyone doing a rebuild on one of these carbs; don't waste your time with an Amazon cheapy rebuild kit. Next question is do I need this heat shield? My guess is any heat abatement around the carb is worthwhile. Does everyone use them with these motors?
Scott, With the Jet Hot coating on the intake and headers the carb should be cooler. I've never used a plate but have used a double gasket with an aluminum shim in the middle. You could cut the plate down for a spacer sandwich.
Many use a phenolic spacer. They come in several sizes. A 1/4" or 1/2" should fit.
I have a 1/2" phenolic spacer and it seemed to help with vapor lock. But it caused the air filter housing to touch the hood, but just slightly. I was thinking with the ceramic coating I might not need it. After getting the hood louvered, engine temps were fine. But I haven't been in stop and go traffic on a hoy day, which would be the true test. I'll probably put the spacer and heat shield back on before I'm done.
We got the transmission and crossmember cleaned up. 17 years of grease and grime gone. Need to order the clutch parts; disc, pressure plate , throw out bearing. Being a Rover tranny and bell housing, who has the right stuff? Also, I want to change the fluid in the 5 speed. Factory recommends ATF, but I see info on 75w90 being an upgrade. What's the consensus here?
Scott, Check Rockauto under Rover and Land Rover. Triumph TR7 &TR8 used the Rover transmission also. Rimmer? I'd use Synchromesh Fluid.
Ok, thanks Jim!
LT77 or R380?
I'm told it's the LT77. TWS motors has the clutch kit coming my way.They wanted pics of my flywheel and clutch disc and plate before confirming they had what I need. So we're good but slightly poorer. I tried Rimmer Bros and it was too much with shipping. Rock auto/summit probably have what I need but I didn't see it there with the 10" disc and 23 spline. I don't mind supporting these shops that aren't giant businesses. In the meantime I'm cleaning the engine bay and doing some touchup work. Most of it is good, but very oily.
I would run the ATF in the LT77 vs the 75w90. The fluid pump may not like the thicker oil.
Got it! Thanks
I got the fluid changed out in the 5 speed. I went with Valvoline Synchromesh. Since I'm waiting on the headers and clutch parts I decided to spruce up the engine bay. All the chips and touch up paint spots looked bad, so we'll see if it looks better or worse when I'm done. It's a 50/50 proposition at best.
Not a paint and body guy by any means, but I did get the first coat of base color on and it needs another to cover everything. Hope we cleaned it and scuffed it enough! We've got the clear coat ready to go.
I did a coat of clear in the engine bay and will do another light coat tomorrow. I'm happy with the look so far and fingers are crossed that the paint will stick. Cleaned the crap out of it, but I've read that the base coat should be sprayed 12 to 24 hrs after spraying the primer or it may peal after 3 to 6 months. I may have missed that window by a day. The point that they make is if you spray within that window you will get a chemical bond. After that window you're supposed to scuff the primer to create a mechanical bond. Did I mention I'm not a paint and body guy?
I did get the Flywheel resurfaced (Horsepower Machine, Bremerton) and it looks like we should be getting the clutch installed pretty soon.
I ordered a cheap engine cradle; it has to be modified, of course. So, I got a temp engine cradle situation. But we did get the flywheel on. Knowing it's balanced, I was worried if it could be mounted out of balance by an idiot. Luckily it's idiot proof, so it's on and torqued to spec with thread locker.
Looking good!
Thanks Jim, I had a moment of panic when installing the new pressure plate to the flywheel. I hadn't noticed when removing the old one that the springs were compressed when fully installed. So, when I went to install the pressure plate I'm like This doesn't fit around the disc. I had to get the old ones out to compare and luckily they were the same. So, AI told me the springs compress as you tighten it down, Whew!
Transmission, bell housing, throw out bearing here we go!
I have to block this thing with something to get to the 60 lbs torque on the connecting bolts. I'll try the wife, she's strong.
Once I got the hoist working (needed a little fluid), I got the transmission attached. The next step will be a bit of a struggle. I have no choice but to beg the wife for assistance. This thing needs to find its home. Of course the fresh paint will be an issue.
Tomorrow we'll get it in, hopefully!
Attempt #1, Fail! The car was on jack stands when I took the motor out. I swapped the front jacks out and put some cribbing under it. Its an inch too close to the ground for the hoist legs to roll under. So, I jacked it up and put in some 2X4's to raise it up. Next I'm trying hooking one of the 3 openings in the manifold lift plate without the load leveler to see if I can get the angle right.
Second attempt; I got it in position only to notice the oil filter is in contact with the framerail.
We thought using the smaller filter, it would clear. I know Jon was able to use the smaller filter, but it looks like I have to run the swivel adaptor. Now where did I put that?
Scott, you have to dent the frame to allow the short filter to work. If you look at Curtis's article, he explains it.
I'll look at that. Where is his post?
https://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson.htm
Thanks Jim. I looked at his build again and it looks like I'll have to do some clearancing. Unfortunately Curtis' post doesn't show the area he modified with a ballpeen hammer very well. I called D+D with some questions on the swivel adaptor. His swivel adaptor kits are on back order but he did explain that his adaptors are both the metric oil pump filter assembly and the swivel component. I thought I could use the swivel part with my new unmodified metric fuel pump. That's a big NO according to D+D. So, I have to make room for the oil filter.
Scott, Install the motor without the oil filter, tape off the area to avoid leaks, and then try to install the filter and you will see where to massage the frame a little to allow you to screw on and screw off.
I put the motor back in and marked the interference area. Took it back out and beat the marked area with my 4 lb hammer. Put the motor back in; still cant get the filter on. Marked it up more and used a small air hammer on it. I could move the inner wall of the rail, but the bottom area that is boxed wont budge. I may have to get out the cutting wheel and remove enough material to make it work. I have a smallish mig welder (Hobart 140) so I could weld in a piece that accommodates the filter. I have the transmission held up on a trans jack but when the crossmember is in the filter may hit slightly higher or lower. So I need to err on opening up more area just in case.
Every one of these cars are different. You will get it. Probably better to cut a notch and weld a patch anyway to give more room.
Looks like the damper was rubbing on the steering rack in your picture. Use some fender washers to space the motor up a little. Those rubber cushions sag with age. That may be why the oil filter is lower on your car and interferes with the bottom of the frame rail.
There are shims, one on each side that are not in yet. Those will add a small amount of lift. I haven't
get a bolt into the motor mounts yet. I'm getting it within a 16th" and checking the filter space. I'll have to check the clearance on the steering arm and the balancer. I'm hoping thats from installing and uninstalling the motor. There was no noise from there when running.
Those shims are pretty thin. If you need a bit more, buy some large washers at the hardware store & make two cuts to create a notch. Slide them underneath the round motor mounts. Or disassemble the mounts & add them with out cutting.
In my case with sagging rubber mounts, the notched method was so much easier.
I was trying to figure out how to get the shims in so I guess you get the bolts started and then plop them in. I'll get some thicker washers. I got that area opened up and have a piece to weld in. Have to get the motor in place to make sure the filter will go on before I weld it up. I think it's opened up enough.
After installing the motor for the 4th time, I confirmed that the oil filter will go on. Out it came again. I spent some time today getting the welder set up with the correct wire and did some test welds to see if I remember how to weld. I think tomorrow we'll get it done.
Excellent. I always prefer to avoid extra plumbing in the oil circuit. Less to go wrong that way.
Jim
Is it pretty, No. Will it work, Yes. The filler piece was not the same gauge as the surrounding metal, so blow-thru was an issue. Going to grind it a bit more. Seal it, primer and paint it. No one will ever know how crappy the welder was.
The motor is going in for the 5th time. Hopefully it stays for a good while. I need the motor in to cover up this alteration.
Today I got the motor back in and checked the clearances again; both the harmonic balancer and the oil filter. Each has plenty of clearance and I haven't even put the motor mount shims in yet. I'm thinking the wear mark on the steering shaft was from a klutz installing and uninstalling the engine 5 times. I haven't got the bolts or the trans crossmember installed so the transmission might come up a bit which will move the balancer a little closer to the shaft, but we'll see.
There is a possibility that the shims for the motor mounts were both on one side to help line up the holes. When I pulled the motor they fell on the floor without me seeing them until later. I don't see how they are needed otherwise as they are very thin.
So, when I go to install the motor mount bolts, and crossmember we'll see if that is an issue.
We got the transmission crossmember in and everything is looking good. The crossmember bolts are a little sketchy though. 2 are lag bolts and the other 2 are bolts with captive nuts inside the frame rail. They had used some epoxy or something to glue the lag bolts in. Obviously they worried these wood lag bolts would come out eventually. They were tight when I removed them so maybe I'll add some lock tight and pray. The motor mount bolt holes are lining up and I don't see any reason for the motor mount shims. Everything clears. The harmonic balancer is clear and the slightly longer Bosch oil filter goes on and off with no issue. We'll get the motor mounts bolted up tomorrow and maybe get the exhaust headers on.
Today we got the drivers side motor mount bolts in. The other side will require loosening the transmission bolts to the crossmember so there's some give. We're 1/16" away a the other side so only need a small adjustment to get those bolts in.
Frustration is the word of the day. The passenger side motor mount bolts are giving me a fit. Probably due to my skill level. So, off came the crossmember and in went the floor jack to hold it up. My hoist has a blown seal so it wont stay up long enough for me to get under the car. Trip to HF for a new hydraulic cylinder tomorrow.
We got the new ram for the hoist in and should have done it sooner. This car has 12 bolts for the motor mounts and trans crossmember. We have 11 in; the last crossmember to transmission bolt and washer were the final straw. I was supposed to loosely connect both of those bolts, then connect the crossmember to the frame. Doing it out of sequence means, no room to work. Getting the nut and washer on this way involves magnets, super glue (glue the washer to the nut) and beer. So, it's a tomorrow job to finish!
Super glue trick failed. Had to use some heavy grease to stick the washer on (the bolt is facing down) then we got the nut on and tightened it down and the other 11 bolts of the motor and tranny mounts. Could finally take the hoist and floor jack out. Of course I used the short carb studs when obviously we need the long ones. But, the carb is the next install, because it's simple.
I spent the afternoon getting the oil pressure gauge feed line connected to the oil pump housing and it was so fun. No place to use a regular 9/16 wrench. Had to chop one in half to make it work in the space. Then getting it tightened was another hour. Ordered 4 new 2 inch carb studs, someone lost the other ones. Getting the wires sorted, some need extending and some shortened. But we have a starter and a clutch slave cylinder installed. The fuel line has to be connected and I'm replacing the hoses for fuel and cooling as well.
You are getting there. Learning how to eat the elephant.
Jim
Yes, learning by my own mistakes. We're getting the fuel line, filter, pressure gauge and return line back in. Starting to connect wires, hoses etc. I got the drivers side header back on and once I know where the wires are going on the other side I'll get the other header back on. I'm going with some new NGK plugs that are a setting cooler as the old plugs were standard heat range. I'm learning that with the mods in this engine and being all aluminum, the heat range should be 1 or 2 settings cooler. If there's a consensus on best spark plugs for these stroked motors, I'm all ears.
NGK one range cooler should be perfect. I gap at .040 for Electronic ignition. When you go to start, unhook the top radiator hose from the radiator and fill there to eliminate air pockets. Run for 20 minutes at 2000+ RPM to breakin cam and lifters. It may get hot and you may have to shut down and try again.
Hmm. Buick specs were a bit hot.
I went with one step cooler than what was in and will gap at .040. They had Champion RL95YC's in and I'm now going with NGK BPR6HS. It has a projected tip like the Champions and it matches the tip length 1/2". I put one in and rotated the engine back around to TDC to make sure it didn't hit the piston. I think we're good there. I guess I can put all the plugs in since I shouldn't have to rotate the motor manually again. Knock on wood! Good advice on the JetHot coated headers Jim!
At this point I'm looking at the PCV system I was using with the stock Olds valve covers. When I was using the Offenhauser covers, oil was coming out of the vented valve cover caps. It was a mess. Significant blow by didn't help. The Offy's aren't baffled and there's no provision for the PCV valve. Here's my question; Can I install a PCV on the cap with a vent tube and route it to the intake manifold? With the other cap being vented, will this keep the oil from coming out the caps being there's no baffles in the covers? I had a catch can setup with the stock (baffled) covers and oil leaks were reduced and no oil was coming out of the valve cover caps. I love the Offy valve covers, but if oil is going to be everywhere, I'll need a fix.
That is the idea of the parts I recommended. Open vent on driver side and vent with tube to PCV on the passenger side is commonly used. If you have a little oil around the open breather you could go to another one with tube to go to the bottom of the air cleaner with a hose. The open breather should have what looks like a kitchen scrubber inside it. With no blowby, should have suction there.
PCV diagram:
215s are commonly prone to blowby regardless of how meticulous you are in the build. It has to be allowed for in the crankcase vent system.
First and foremost, provide an escape path for the combustion byproducts at max load and speed. Only then can you assemble an effective evacuation system for midrange and idle. The bare minimum is a clear and unobstructed 5/8" inner diameter and this will not be enough as the engine inevitably wears. It doesn't matter a lot where this line goes as long as it is open to atmosphere. Some choices are better than others. Road tube: not great. Valve cover vent: slightly better. Through the air cleaner base inside the filter with a flame trap: better. 3/4 ID tube: better still. Catch can: OK but completely unnecessary.
I like to come off the fuel filter mount block off plate with a 90 degree street L pipe fitting (stainless is available) and go vertical with a 1" ID hose. The cut off end of a threaded pipe of a suitable length works quite well here. That's big enough in cross section to pull half of a pot scrubber inside as a trap and drain the oil that condenses back into the crankcase and still have enough flow area. This configuration has worked well. Placing the outlet where the fumes follow the intake path is good practice but the outlet should not be obstructed in any way.
Once you have that in place it's fair game to configure the positive crankcase ventilation system. That's where the small line with the PCV valve comes in. It also can go anywhere although it is common if a valve cover vent line is used to plumb it to the opposite side. Other engines such as the B series use the tappet cover, etc. It needs to restrict or stop the flow at idle under high vacuum and allow full flow at moderate vacuum during cruise, whatever that happens to be for your engine. The carb or EFI is then calibrated for that air leak.
In practice this then blocks off air flow at idle so you can control your idle speed. It allows vacuum to pull vapors out of the crankcase at cruise and compensates for the airflow, and it allows the engine to ingest the blowby gases, with the fuel system tuned to accommodate the blowby content. Oil vapors are condensed and/or kept inside a sealed system.
Jim
Thanks guys! Jim are you talking about the fuel pump block off plate. Because I do have that plate with a 90 fitting. So I'll put that back on and run the hose under the air cleaner where I had the original valve cover vented to. Then I can attach a PCV valve to the cap with the tube and run it to the intake. Sound reasonable?
It does but you also need a flame arrester/vapor trap in that line because without it a backfire can ignite gases in the crankcase and blow out the lifter valley tin. BTDT
There is enough room in the plate to go up to a 3/4" NPT thread which has a 1.050" OD. This gives room for the pot scrubber pad and the only down side is routing the hose. Silicon and pre-bent hoses are available though. With the pot scrubber nothing special is needed on the air filter end and oil drain back is very much downhill.
You can go smaller on the sizes and some will probably recommend that. I won't. It's no harder to make it larger than it is to make it smaller and this is a case where too large is only an issue if you can't fit it in the space available. Too small otoh can cause oil leaks.
Jim
Thanks Jim! I'll look at what hose sizes I can get routed to the air filter housing underside.
I think I have what I need except the 3/4" hose for the fuel pump block off plate and 3/8" hose for the PCV valve to intake. Coming tomorrow. I found the right cap for the PCV in my stash of parts. I did get the spark plugs gapped and installed with anti-seize.
So, the question is how much of the mesh and how far up the hose to place this stuff? Looking online, there are warnings that it could restrict flow if done incorrectly. Also its stated that it should be cleaned out periodically with solvent.
If you stick a wire through the hose and tie it to the end of the scrubber pad to pull it back through you will figure out pretty quick how much you can get in there.
Jim
I got enough stainless mesh in to "hopefully" do the job. It's placed in the lower 3/4" ID hose section below the coupler to 5/8" hose which runs to the 90 degree coupler in the filter housing. From what I've read, you don't want restriction in flow, so we'll see how it goes once running. It's not packed in there. With help found here, the PCV system is complete. Fuel system is connected with new filter and soft lines. Starter is in and connected. I can connect the distributor wires, install the coil and connect the plug wires.
I'm thinking the first start up is soon. It seems installing the Radiator and driveshaft should wait until after the initial fire up to confirm it runs. If it starts and runs, I'll connect the Rad and do a 20 minute break in. If I'm missing something, please chime in!