Hi All,
With the recent drop in the British Pound vs the dollar, I have been looking into the Hoyle Suspension vs the FrontLine Development replacement coilover suspension upgrades.. Does anyone have any thoughts on either of these or one vs the other?
I have been quoted:
- Front Coil Over Kit with Poly Bushes [1107.00 GBP. Shipping to USA 175.00 GBP] from Hoyle
- Front suspension kit: [934.50 GBP. Shipping to USA: 193.19 GBP] from FrontLine
One of the differences is that the Frontline kit appears to be aluminum. Not sure if there are other advantages of one vs. the other--or if there's another option I should be considering.
As an FYI, I will be putting these into my MGB-GT with a Buick 300 V8, so I assume I will have to modify the crossmember.
Thanks much,
Eric
No need to modify the crossmember for the 300 Buick. You CAN replace the rack mount with 2 piece shaft collars if you want for easier adjustability. If you do that, you can use the saddles from U-bolt type muffler clamps to adapt them to the crossmember. Cut those down and use a spacer to get the correct position. This allows easy rotation and lateral shift to align the pinion, especially useful when shifting the location of the lower end of the steering column and swapping to the small Borgeson U-joint or changing the pinion length. Any of which might be helpful for header clearance.
Jim
It might be helpful to know more about your plans.
Do you intend to lower your car's ride height from stock?
What size tires and wheels will you run? Will you space your wheels outboard to fill your flared (Sebring!) fenders?
How aggressively will you drive your car? Track days and autocrosses? Or is it more for comfort, car shows, and cruising?
How much do you already know (or care to know) about suspension design theory, geometry, etc., and tuning? I ask this last question because in my view these two suspensions enable further and more important suspension upgrades. I don't see them as complete solutions by themselves.
Thanks Jim and Curtis.
Curtis, in response to your questions: I might lower the car a bit, depending on exhaust pipe clearance and I intend to run wider wheels and tires (probably as wide as possible with the Sebring or other fender flares will allow--and 16" in diameter, likely wider in the rear than the front). I do not plan to race the car--I want it to be a comfortable road touring car that has good handling. And as an aside, I will probably add electric power steering, since my tires will be fairly big and wide. I am not in any way a suspension expert, which is the reason for comparing these two options--I've read that the Hoyle seems better than the Frontline for handling, but I'm guessing there are lots of opinions and different setups that will affect that. I considered the Fast Cars front setup, but the price is way more than I was hoping to spend. Also, I will run a custom four link rear suspension with a Ford 8" axle (I would have likely gone with IRS, but I already had the axle). I'm curious about what other upgrades you are suggesting might be possible or recommended? Thanks again.
The Fast Cars front suspension is pricey, but it is far & away better than either Hoyle or Frontline which still uses a kingpin vs ball joints.
IMO, none of them make enough of a difference for me to spend that kind of money. I do just fine with a tweaked stock setup.
There is a Timken "TSL" bearing type that I think has potential in being incorporated into the kingpin design, as it is sealed, would remove friction, and eliminate wear. I've not found a listing of the bearing sizes yet though.
Jim
These needle bearings replace the bronze thrust washers:
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/MGB-MGC-king-pin-needle-roller-thrust-bearings-plus-ultra-thin-shim-set-/282114688232
Speedway Motors has bearings instead of bushings for early Ford and Chevy kingpins.
https://www.amazon.com/Deluxe-1942-48-Ford-Spindle-King/dp/B01N7W3FGT
This is also interesting:
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-performance-forum.83/spindle-modification-replacing-trunnion.4476089/
Before writing more, I want to acknowledge that generalizations can be misleading because "handling" will vary widely due to many, many factors affecting it and our perception of it.
QuoteThe Fast Cars front suspension is pricey, but it is far & away better than either Hoyle or Frontline which still uses a kingpin vs ball joints.
IMO, none of them make enough of a difference for me to spend that kind of money. I do just fine with a tweaked stock setup.
+1
Just going by what's described on their websites, the Hoyle and Frontline upgrades actually
are tweaked stock set-ups insofar as they aren't appreciably changing suspension geometry... unless/until you lower your car via their sexy coilover shock absorbers. When not operating near enough to the center of its designed-for range, the MGB suspension's bump & roll steer characteristcs are bad. You might try to mitigate this with stiffer springs and sway bar, and staying on smooth roads. This didn't work for me. You can reduce bump steer by bending the steering arms. (Legal disclaimer: bending steering arms isn't for novices! How far to optimally bend them? Depends on the installation.)
IMHO, replacing the stock MGB stub axles with "dropped spindles" is a more elegant way to lower an MGB more than ~1" than fitting shorter springs or adjusting spring perchs. You can do this whether you fit Hoyle, Frontline, or neither. (Disclaimer: cutting/welding to "drop" a spindle is not a novice job.) With dropped spindles fitted, you'll definitely need to correct bump steer... but dropped spindles raise the suspension's Roll Center (a.k.a. Instantaneous Center. Better geometry: less roll torque, better camber change effect, etc.) Digression: there are two schools of thought with regard to MGB dropped spindles. Some people leave the kingpin stock, while others advocate extending its length with mor and different geometric effects.
What's really important, besides geometry? One answer is "unsprung weight". It's hard to compare that without buying the suspensions and weighing their components. Hoyle at least talks about unsprung weight on the website page for their suspension. Also, though not part of their suspension kit, Hoyle offers aluminum hubs in lieu of steel. 1.5# weight reduction per side! Not cheap, but appealing to me.)
Carl brought up the Fast Cars suspension. You might like to read more about that here: http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/MGB-Front-Suspension-Upgrade.htm or http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/2007-TechSession2.htm
For more on dropped spindles and other MGB suspension tweaks... there are many of interesting nuggets in the photo captions of http://www.BritishRacecar.com.
Sure that wasn't 15 lbs per side Curtis? At least if you also do the upgraded brakes to aluminum calipers and ventilated rotors. Aluminum wheels also help and tire weights can easily vary by 10 lbs or so.
Jim
just hubs purchased separately...
Screen-Shot-2022-10-09-at-8.04.02-AM.jpg
"H17 (7075) Aluminium (1.80kg) rather than Steel (2.47kg)" each
I see. Very nice. I think I was able to remove close to 10lbs with hubs, calipers, aluminum hats and light weight ventilated rotors but that's been awhile back. Those calipers are pretty heavy. Hard to say how much difference it made as other mods were also made. As far as I know the biggest change possible is in going from wires to forged/spun wheels. IIRC that can be something close to a 20lb difference.
Jim
Thanks all for the advice--lots to think about, for sure.
Speaking of hubs, I did purchase (some time ago) a big brake kit which has aluminum hubs. One of the hubs was damaged a bit in shipping, but it was a closeout, so I accepted it as it was the last one left. Any ideas from looking at the damage whether I can live with it or will I need to TIG weld it and have it re-turned on this (the back) side? The damage I'm referring to is on the inside of the hub--the damage on the outside, I'm assuming is cosmetic. Not having taking apart front end any time recently, I can't remember what goes where.
IMG_4376.jpg
Looks pretty cosmetic to me.
Jim
Cosmetic, but not pretty. :)
Eric, What hub is that? Wilwood Camaro?
I made my set of front hubs and did it so that the hats slip on over the wheel studs from the outside so that I can swap rotors without removing the hubs. Most of the hubs I've seen on MGBs aren't like that, you have to remove the entire assembly to remove the rotor.
Jim
Jim (Nichols),
These hubs are custom aluminum from Bill Guzman: http://www.classicconversionseng.com/plines/mgb-big-brake-kit/
MGB-Hub-Kit-1.jpg
QuoteThese hubs are custom aluminum from Bill Guzman: [www.classicconversionseng.com]
True – I have a set..... although I'd be hard pressed to say the lower unsprung weight contributed to an improved ride
Surprised that no one has mentioned that Bill has developed a front suspension as another option to Hoyle/Frontline - maybe worth looking at!
http://www.classicconversionseng.com/plines/mgb-coil-over-front-suspension/
I considered Bill's suspension, but it's over twice the price of the Hoyle unit. Not sure if it has any advantages.
Graham has the Moss coilover with drop spindles. How much are they in the UK?
The Moss system appears to be about the same price as the Hoyle (at least with the current exchange rate), but it's on back order: https://mossmotors.com/coil-over-kits
"I considered Bill's suspension, but it's over twice the price of the Hoyle unit. Not sure if it has any advantages."
Bill's has ball joints & a better shock angle for starters.
Carl, thanks. I realized the ball joints were there after I posted. Didn't realize the shock angle was different.
I plan to keep tweaking what I have.
I just found this comparison of the Frontline and Hoyle suspensions. I think I'm going to order the Hoyle, and will try to upgrade it to ball joints with the information posted here.
http://www.mg-cars.net/mgb-technical-bbs/frontline-front-suspension-2020123114442890666.htm
That link does not provide any ball joint conversion info.
Might be able to upgrade the kingpins with TSL type tapered bearings which include an integral seal.
Jim
This is the link I was referring to regarding the potential king pin to ball joint conversion: https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-performance-forum.83/spindle-modification-replacing-trunnion.4476089/
The link I previously posted was just comparing the Hoyle to the Frontline kits.
Jim,
Regarding the TSL bearing conversion, did you ever look into this? Looks like it could be easier than the ball joint conversation, but I'm not sure where to look for the bearings that could fit (or anything else, for that matter).
Yes, several of us have been following that thread with interest.
This could help:
https://www.lily-bearing.com/sr/sealed%20taper%20bearing/
Jim
Jim,
That looks like a great resource. Thanks much.
Bills kit also includes $1300 worth of brakes, hubs etc. so can't really be compared to the Hoyle or Frontline kits. MGOC unit at least has the ball joints for 1200 GBP.
So the closest bore sizes in the TSL bearings are .750 and .875" with the corresponding kingpin sizes being .780 and .900" sp .030 and .025" undersized respectively. That means that the kingpins would have to be turned to size but also that used pins can be used. So bad and good news both.
Might be possible to go with spacers instead, .875 for .780 (.095 or a .0475" wall) and 1" for .9 (.050" wall). That is probably feasible as well and a slightly less difficult of a machining task but would mean the need for new kingpins which aren't exactly cheap. Should be possible to work with both the OD and height.
Should also be possible to use them for the cross shaft attachment to the control arms. That would require boring the ends of the kingpin for them but I am pretty sure there is enough meat to do that.
Pretty much a permanent fix for the kingpin bushing issue.
Jim
Great information Jim. I assume the use of spacers is also preferable as it allows a replaceable wear surface, so instead of replacing kingpins down the road, use can just replace the cheap spacers?
Eric, maybe spacers between the inner races on the horizontal joints at top and bottom where the A-arms attach but I don't think they would be needed on the kingpin itself, just preload to spec. Guess you could add a spacer sleeve if you wanted to. Any wear should be in the bearings and that should never be an issue. Whether you used the rubber bushings at the top or not would be your choice.
Jim
Jim, thanks. I think this is the route I am going to try. I ended up getting the Hoyle suspension, so it should make for an interesting combination.
I just ordered a set of TSL style bearings to modify the kingpins. Sourced them from Lilly Bearings. They are made from hardened 440 stainless which wouldn't have been my first choice but should be acceptable. Part numbers as follows:
S440-R8 2rs: 8 each
S440-R12 2rs: 2 each
S440-R14 2rs: 2 each
Total, $100 though I wouldn't be surprised to get charged something for shipping. This will require some machine work of course, and I will have to turn some bearing cups somewhat similar to those used on the necks of motorcycle frames but the goal is to replace all the bushings including the rubber trunion cushions with tapered bearings.
I have already fitted oil-filled sintered iron bushings to the inner LCA pivots and didn't have any trouble with that but it did require me to drill out the link ends to 1-1/4" and fit grease zerks. Should have that back in service today sometime or tomorrow. The bushings came from McMasterCarr:
https://www.mcmaster.com/2938T708
This bushing has a 3/16" flange. I had to make inner sleeves to fit.
Jim
Jim,
That's great news--please keep us posted on how it works out and how the process goes.
Ni noticeable difference in NVH from the urethane bushings but the suspension and steering is tighter and more precise. Still waiting on the bearings.
Jim
Well, the bearings came in. And... not as advertised. I now have $100 worth of very nice stainless sealed BALL bearings. I blame the search engine. You know what I mean. No idea what I'll do with those. But at a unit cost of about 8 bucks apiece they'll just go into bench stock. Actually all but the one that goes at the bottom of the kingpin would probably be just fine as ball bearings so I'll have to re-think that.
And back to the original question: Are TSL bearings bearings available in the required sizes? More searching required.
Jim
Ugh, I hate when that happens.
Speedway Motors sells Kingpin needle bearings for early Ford and Chevy kingpins for street rods. Maybe a person could adapt them?
https://inthegaragemedia.com/upgrading-worn-brass-bushings-on-early-ford-kingpin-suspension/
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/ford-versus-chevy-kingpins.50891/
I'll look into the possibility of using needle bearings. A suitable thrust bearing might be a challenge also. That is an alternative, as is using unsealed Timkens. The attraction of the TSL bearings was the integral seal.
Jim
Jim, they already sell a Torrington bearing for thrust bearing.
https://www.jbbearings.com/sell-59536-mgb-and-mgc-king-pin-needle-roller-thrust-bearings.html
https://ttypes.org/tabc-kingpin-thrust-washer/
Looks like JB Bearings has a minimum quantity for those bearings, although it doesn't say what. If there are others interested, I'd definitely participate in a group buy.
Second thread has part # and DIY info. They are for sale on UK Ebay frequently.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284972617545?hash=item4259b10f49:g:8jsAAOSwNSxUy7E5&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsDtGbsk5BmFB7NJvD90qpUMY4ZP5%2BXJ%2FERhoGhpZAyTjFwyIBGJR3Ly8VyYCjmXpm%2FC6BfMfhWhLTulk98NUNu4YiuoR8EhKqASCK5DBPpTup8p9bgHIMjbdUICuNb3TO6uXdB%2F99GfzvGasv%2FhEuE9sQ5Dliask%2F%2BMd%2B6CHXJn1b7K5er72dndIkCX%2Fsp9FDysYUckMc7kHzONrOiOZk%2FeMuG9XYKY%2FO2v1xT9yi%2FaH%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR87fyZe0YQ
Thanks Jim, I missed that. I'll check it out.
I just added the Ebay link above.
I just came across this thread, the MGOC has been offering a ball joint suspension for years but it rarely seems to be talked about. Some of the photos clearly show the modified uprights
https://www.classicdrivingdevelopment.co.uk/gal.asp?gID=58&page=EVO+3+BALL+JOINTED+FRONT+SUSPENSION
https://www.classicdrivingdevelopment.co.uk/category.asp?cID=6&carID=2&pID=29&page=MGC+BALL+JOINTED+FRONT+SUSPENSION
https://mgm.gtwiz.net/mg-car-parts/parts-for-sale/mgc-ball-joint-suspension/https://mgm.gtwiz.net/mg-car-parts/parts-for-sale/mgc-ball-joint-suspension/
Thanks for the links, Philip. I had never seen that.
Looks to be well designed. Priced at something around $1000 US maybe? That would be affordable.
Jim
Carl, Remember a while back on the link on the other board my suggestion to use the Jag/TR ball joint.?
Yes.
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/3-4-bellhousing-id.4575641.4575771/#msg-4575771
This thread was also quite interesting.
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-performance-forum.83/spindle-modification-replacing-trunnion.4476089/
Current exchange rate is $1684 US, plus shipping.