Greetings.... I'm new to the site and looking for advice from anyone who's been down this road. I brought home a very rough TR8 coupe as a project. I also picked up a 4.0 out of a 98 Land Rover Discovery figuring that it would give me the HP and driveability I was after on a fairly stock build. I'm pretty keen on keeping the 4.0 front cover with the serpentine belt drive along with the components being driven. Also I want to keep the coil pack arrangement. I was given a manual gearbox Land Rover flywheel with the spark triggers but after seperating the gearbox from the 3.5 I have doubts it will fit inside the bell housing. I will need to address the oil pan on the 4.0 but my plan was to install the 4.0 and see what all will need to be done for fitment and the drop it back out and begin the body work.
So I'm looking for any help from anyone who might have "been there, done that" for advice, even if not in a TR8
Thanks,
LaVerne
Where I'm at now
IMG_066321.JPG
Is that going in
or coming out?
Thats what came out.....this is what I need to fit..
IMG_8856a.JPG
IMG_8853a1.JPG
Need to swap the oil pan off the TR8
I would pull the acc. off the old for the new as I think it will be to high
He is going from V-belt to serpentine.
The oil pan swap may be worth sorting out first.
The 4.0/4.6 oil pickup attaches to the front cover, not the middle of the block, and I don't think the later front covers can be modified to accept the older style pickup location. My 4.6 Bosch-era cover has a 1" deep vestigial stub-hole(?) casting that aligns to the older pickup passages in the block, but the stub doesn't connect to anything. There's a spring bypass valve on the other side of it that connects to the gerotor pump, but I have no idea what would happen if you drilled out the stub to connect them. Probably something not good.
The older style pan may fit over the new pickup, but I don't think so. It's possible that you could cut/weld/hammer a sheetmetal oil pan to fit around the later style pickup.
If none of the above sounds appealing but you're committed to the serp front cover, you may be committed to the serp pan.
Thanks guys. I need to get my engine stand back from my nephew later today and pull the pans and see what I'm up against. This may not be do able, but we'll see. I know the plenum will take some work to clear the bonnet and I suspect the alternator will sit to high as well....it will be close. I think the rest of it will fit . I did get a little cleaning done yesterday.
IMG_0682b.JPG
IMG_0706b1.JPG
IMG_0689b.JPG
IMG_0702b1.JPG
Which bonnet does that car have? The later one with the extra bump in the middle should help if you have that. I can't really tell from the exposure but it looks like you might. The plenum on my 1uz fits perfectly in the center bump.
I should add that we spaced the body up about an inch from the original TR7 position. We used hockey pucks.
It's the later bonnet with the bump out but I imagine the plenum will still be an issue. The question before me now is if the oil pick up tube and il pan can be interchanged between the two blocks without issue. Clearly the Land rover pan will not work and I suspect if I remove both pans I will find different pick up assemblies. Not a big deal if they can be swapped. Big mess and a waste of time if they cannot. Anybody know for sure?
Same block
Thanks Don. I went ahead and pulled the pans and see that it shouldn't be a problem to swap the pickups and the pan. The TR8 pan has the windage tray bolted to the bottom of the black. The 4.0 pan has the tray welded into the pan. Good news is that the 4.0 is drilled and tapped to move the tray from the 3.5. I will need to check the throw of the crank for any difference I suppose.
IMG_0718a1.JPG
IMG_0720a.JPG
IMG_0722a1.JPG
IMG_0723a.JPG
For now I just removed the pick up off the 4.0 and put the 3.5 pan on it. Moved it over and will bolt up the gearbox and shove it all back in and see how it fits. Removed the air conditioning compressor as I'm pretty sure it would not clear going in but I believe it will once in the engine bay.
IMG_0715a.JPG
IMG_0725a.JPG
QuoteSame block
Same external dimensions, but not the same block. You cannot interchange these two blocks.
The 4.0 is in now and the alternator is an issue as well as the plenum. At this point I believe I will cut openings in the TR7 bonnet I have and try and fab up some semi attractive bubbles to weld in place.
IMG_0732a.JPG
IMG_0731a.JPG
IMG_0740a.JPG
Why do that
Better ideas than butchering a bonnet
It is hitting the alternator. Move it to the side and the bonnet will close. The plenum looks to me like it will fit right in the bump.
I am open to suggestions but the car was never going to go back to original. Using the 4.0 gives me something a lot closer to the hp I'd like to see without getting crazy on the build. The single belt drive at the front also appeals to me for a number of reasons as well as the fi and the coil pack if I can pull it off. A relocation of the alternator is something I'll look at first but preliminary indications are it's unlikely I will do so. I drug this 7 home for parts so I don't have any problem hacking up the bonnet in an attempt to build what I'm after.
IMG_9894a.JPG
Double check that the front cover will still work with the new oil pickup location.
The block still has the passages and threaded holes for the older style mid-point pickup, but my 4.6 front cover does NOT align with the old passages in the block. (The gasket has a hole for the old pickup line, but the cover casting blanks it off.). I think the flow through the 4.0/4.6 cover by the old pickup hole is reversed from the older style, so drilling a hole isn't an option, and I don't see an easy way to modify it to accept the old pickup.
I'd hate to see you go to lot of work to adapt sheetmetal to the serpentine alternator/ac/belt/pulley setup, only to have it not work out.
I didn't swap front covers Dave. Complete swap from the 3.5 to the 4.0 Both blocks have the oil pick up tubes located mid block. The tube bends are different as are the pans but they are interchangeable. I removed the alternator and as expected the plenum sits to high. I made a half hearted attempt to remove the plenum but the allen head bolts are firmly fixed and I'll need to pick up the correct size socket drive. I suspect they may be loctited and some heat may be in order as well. I had to go help get an MG tub moved from the paint shop yesterday and I saw something on this caddy that has me thinking that there is an alternative to butchery. I have plenty of room below the power steering pump if I can fab up some bracketry and come up with a double belt drive pulley.
IMG_0775a.JPG
IMG_0772a.JPG
IMG_0718a.JPG
IMG_0721a.JPG
I posted a new thread on gerotor-style front covers with some pics of the inside of the serpentine cover, have a look at those pics and you'll see what I mean.
The Bosch/Thor style 4.0/4.6 covers won't draw oil through the original pathway/pickup, even if you swap the tubes and pans to the older mid-block style.
There is a hole in the 4.0/4.6 gasket for the original pickup pathway, but the passageway is then blocked by the casting. In the 4.0/4.6 casting that side of the cover is the high-pressure side. If you were to drill out the casting and remove the original tube, you would have the flow reversed, with no pickup at all. If you drilled the casting and used the 4.0/4.6 pickup, you would be blowing oil back into the pan through the original pickup pathway.
IMG_0721a.JPG this is the location of the pickup on the 4.0 block Same as the 3.5
IMG_0718a1.JPG And the 3.5 The only thing that may be an issue now is the 3.5 had a stud in one of the main caps for to secure the windage tray and pick up. Since I have the 4.0 in the TR8 now with the pan on I cannot see if that cap is drilled and tapped, but I would guess it is not
The 4.0/4.6 block allows you to bolt the old style pickups onto it, yes, but the serpentine front cover does not draw oil through that passageway. It only draws oil from the bottom, where the 4.0 pickup was. As you have it set up now, your crank-driven oil pump in your 4.0 cover will not draw any oil. It will only suck air through the hole you removed the 4.0 pickup from.
Your 4.0 cover may be different from my 4.6 cover, but I doubt it. In your 4.0, was the original pickup location capped with a plate and gasket or otherwise plugged to maintain pressure or suction? If not, then you can conclude the passageway isn't connected to the oil pump intake.
The picture above was from the 4.0 when I removed he pan..with the pick up tube as shown. When I pull the engine for the rebuild I will use the pick up assembly and windage tray from the 3.5. Shouldn't be any issue that I can see.
That's very interesting— I'd love to see a pic of the inside of the front cover if you ever have reason to remove it.
There must have been a switch in castings somewhere in the late 1990s, perhaps with the transition from GEMS to Bosch. I had assumed the last casing change was the transition from the "interim" covers with provisions for a distributor, but your oil pickup setup suggests there was at least one more change. There's definitely no way my 2004 4.6 would draw oil through the block.
There are probably close to a thousand MGBV8s and TR8s in the states now running 4.0 and 4.6L engines with the TR8/SD1 front covers, oil pans, and oil pickups. There are very few running the serpentine cover. I'm pretty sure the later engines had different pickups. When I had the last 4.6L rebuilt, the machinist asked me what I was going to do about the oil pickup. I didn't give it much thought as I've had several 4.0 and 4.6 engines built in the past. The last 4.6 came out of a very late 2003 or maybe even a 2004 Disco II. You raise a good point Dave. I may be in big trouble, but it doesn't appear that Laverne is going to have any trouble. I have a few of the serpentine front covers from various years. I'm going to have to look closer at whats going on. I'm guessing I probably should have had the 2000 4.6L stashed in the garage rebuilt instead of the 2003. The 4.0 in my TR8 race car was one of the crate engines BMW dumped onto the market when they took over Land Rover from Ford. Since it was sold after the 4.0 stopped being produced, and was a universal replacement, I'd assume it should work with any 4.0 front cover. I know its been running with a TR8 pan, pickup, and front cover for many years now. Towards the end, the 4.0 wasn't available. You could only get the 4.6. Maybe thats when they made a change to what your talking about.
Looking at Rimmer Bros, they offer a 4.0 timing cover for pre-1999, 1999-2002, then post-2002. Too bad there's not an explanation of the differences. It looks like we've identified at least one of them.
Anyway, I think we've beaten this dead horse, sorry to LaVerne for flooding your thread with timing cover trivia!
Good luck with the swap, I'll be very interested in more pics as you move along.
Dave
QuoteThere are probably close to a thousand MGBV8s and TR8s in the states now running 4.0 and 4.6L engines with the TR8/SD1 front covers, oil pans, and oil pickups.
Lets not leave out the the ones running a Buick timing cover.