Hello Guys . Need your help.Ive got an 84 Mustang/Capri non WC with a 295 first gear and a .63 fifth gear. The top gear is way to long and I want to change it to a .80 fifth gear. Looking on Ebay there is a gear set available to do this It has a 5th counter gear with32 teeth and a 5th gear main shaft gear with 20 teeth with 28 splines which when installed will give me a..80 final drive .It also says for WC only .How do I verify that I will end up with a.80 ratio and will it fit on a non WC main shaft. this kit is from Competition Transmissions
Tim, If they say WC only it won't work. You need the set that was .73. It was also available in the 83/84 Mustang V8 T5 with 2.95 first. It was also available in the Camaro/Firebird V8 with the 2.95 first. To use the GM OD gears you would have to switch main shaft and slip yoke.I told Carl the tooth count for the two gears awhile back. Don't have those notes here. EDIT: found the tooth count for NWC .73 OD gears: 31 drive and 55 driven.
Hi Jim. Thanks for responding. First of all I must say I have the T5 trans in my TR2 now and it works fine except when I change from fourth at 3000 rpm to fifth it drops to 2000 rpms and makes the 2.2 litre 4 sluggish to get more revs. It has a custom driveshaft for the Ford T5 so I don;t want to change that.Is it possible to change the main shaft to a WC one along with the two fifth gears?I'm worried that the NWC .73 gears may also be too tall also and the .80 ratio would put me at 2400 rpms in fifth with enough torque to rev better up to 65 or 70 miles an hour cruising speed.Thanks Tim
Tim, I don't know if the WC main shaft will swap. Call Modern Driveline and ask. What rear ratio do you have? You could go lower (higher numerically) or to a lower diameter tire. Or build your motor for more power.
Tim, Two places to look for information are: Pro-ForcePerformance.com for the history of the T5, and 5speeds.com
for videos explaining details of the T5.
From what I find, the 2.95 first gear unit has options of 31T/55T for a .72 o.d., and 33T/53T for a .80 o.d. I have not found
the 33T/53T set, and one place lists them as no longer available.
Changing the two gears is a little involved, the counter gear comes off with removal of a snap ring, but the mainshaft gear usually requires a press.
The mainshaft has to be removed in order to press the gear off and the new one on, which leads to "well, I might as well" regarding synchro, bearings and
seals. Pretty soon you are talking replacement cost. I desperately wanted to change my 3.35 first trans to 2.95, and that requires the counter gear, and
the three forward gears plus the two overdrive gears. So, I fixed the oil leak, replaced the input shaft seal and decided to cuss it when the first gear seems
too low. (I have a V8)
You will see that the o.d. gear choices result in a different overdrive ratio when using the 3.35 gears as the input/counter tooth count is different. If I had changes to a 2.95 input/counter gears with the associated forward gears, my overdrive would have been .59, which is really tall.
Dennis
Hi Jim. I suspect the main shafts are not interchangeable since the 93 WC trans has bearings and the 84 NWC doesn't. I will call Modern Driveline. The rear ratio on TR's is 3.7 No options there and then it changes all the trans gear ratios if you go to smaller tires. Hi Dennis Thanks for helping out. . I guess the only way to go is to find a93 T5 with the 295 first gear and then tear it down and install the .80 kit . Put it in the car and sell the 83 NWC to recoup some costs . Still wondering if the .73 gear set would be too tall ? Would maybe be ok in TR6 with more torque available with 2,5 litre. And I thought this would be easy because of all the gear ratios available . Thanks again guys Almost forgot tosay in the ID tag listings of T5's there is a mystery Ford Wc trans number 1352 225 which has a 292 first gear and a .80 fifth gear which is the very trans I need. but it has no listing of what car it was in. How would one find out the answer to that ? The plot thickens
It is probably aftermarket, Ford Racing,Tremec etc. Besides the 83/84 NWC I think all other Ford T5's had the 3.35 first. Datsun/Nissan also used the T5 in some 280ZX and 300Z cars. I believe it was Ford pattern with different input shaft/splines. 81-83 had 3.5 first. 84-86 had 3.35 first.
"The rear ratio on TR's is 3.7 No options there..."
The confusing thing about saying TR is that there are so many different models of TR.
We have two different rearend ratios for our TR6 race car.
RE: TR gears...
Richard Good-something-or-other (forgot his last name) sells bits to swap to a Nissan R200S differential. A few gear choices there including 3.54 and 3.31.
Richard Good of GoodParts specializes in TR6.
https://www.goodparts.com/
Hi Carl.I always thought Triumphs TR2 to TR6 ran a 3.7 gear. What ratios are you running in your race car?Changing the rear end changes all the gears in the trans and I like all of them now very nicely except for the too tall .63 fifth so I'm sticking with that . I'll run it as a four speed untill I can build up a WC trans with the .80 over drive.Am I correct in calculating that when I shift at 3000 rpm in fourth that I will end up at 2400 rpm in fifth?That is what I have to know.
We have a 3.45 in the TR6 race car.
I have been using a T-5 with a .63 5th gear for 17.5 years. Works great with the MGB stock 3.9 rearend. ;)
Hi Carl .That's interesting.I had a friend of mine drive my TR2 yesterday and after three or four miles he said he thought the tachometer was reading high . At 3000 in 4th gear he thought it did not feel like 60 miles per hour.Ive been thinking all day what if I'm shifting at 3000 and dropping to 2000 in fifth and really i'm at1600 or 1800 in fifth. No wonder the car is lugging. I am going to have to get a precise measurement of my rpms with another independant tach. Will keep you informed
I believe that the USA carb version of the TR6 was 3.7 & that the EFI UK version was 3.45. I don't think the 3.45 was ever offered as OEM in the USA.
The genuine 0.8 gearset is no longer available from Tremec, any that come on the market make very high prices. The 0.8 ratios that are currently for sale are after market ones with larger teeth, this has the advantage of being stronger but the disadvantage of being noisier and the need to grind a small amount from the tailhousing to give clearance for the slightly larger gears. The original 0.8 was fitted to the Sierra Cosworth and some TVR's but was a little weak and often broke up when being removed from the shaft. This is of course no help in telling if they will fit a NWC T5
Hello Phillip. That is kind of nice to know. I'm going to get my tachometer problem sorted out and then see if i can use the.73 ratio gears in the 83 NWC trans so I don't have to buy another trans etc.
Hello Tim
I found the info that I was looking for here http://www.5speeds.com/t5/s80.html It shows exactly where you need to remove some metal. It also states that in a GM T5 you need to fit the Ford tailshaft and change the driveshaft yoke as well.
As you can see this gearset is not cheap.
5speeds.com state near the top of the page "Other companies have manufactured gearsets based on this very design". I did see on the USA Ebay several vendors selling a similar (same?) set for about $120
I would be interested to know if these "cheap" 0.8 gearsets are of a similar quality to the 5speeds.com ones.
Let us know how you get on.
Philip
Thanks Phillip. I will check out the info and keep you informed. Getting tach accuracy done first.
Got the tach checked out by hooking up a MGB electric tach and running the motor. At 2000 rpm on the electric one the TR2 tach read 1900. At 3000 electric the TR2 read 2900 so that was that.Took the car out yesterday and shifted into 5th at higher speeds At 3500 rpms in 4th the rpms in 5th were 2500 and not enough power to run it Pretty much same at 4000 in 4th .down to 3000 in 5th and some acceleration in 5th Since I want to use 5th at between 60 and 70 mph the .63 ratio is useless at any speed.Will have to figure out mathematically what the .73 ratio will do for me. Any info on that available? Tim
Quote.Will have to figure out mathematically what the .73 ratio will do for me. Any info on that available?
Sure.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?10,63500
Tim, If you are at 3500 rpm, and using .63 overdrive, you should read 2205 rpm in 5th. At 4000 in 4th, a .63 5th would give 2520 rpm.
A 3500 to 2500 change is .71, and 4000 to 3000 is .75. Is it possible you have a .73 now, since that would fall within the error of the tach reading?
When I look at my listing of T5's, the .63 5th ratio seems fairly rare. It would mean taking the tail housing off, but for a 2.95 first gear, the overdrive gears should be 25/51T. I assume the aluminum tag with the 1352-11-___ is missing? Is there a partial VIN on the right side of the case on the mounting flange? (outside
surface, not on the bell housing face)
If so, it may be possible to identify the transmission. Case casting numbers are less reliable, but may help also.
Dennis
Finally saw how to access the Speed /RPM calculator and got some interesting info.In 4th at 3000 rpm /60mph with the .63 5th gear the revs drop to 1849 a difference of 1085 rpm. With the.73 5th gear the rpm drops to 2142 a difference of 792. With a .80 5th gear the rpm drops to 2318 a difference of 606 rpm . Available Horsepower between 2000 and 4000 is(don't laugh) 85 to 90 . So can I switch to the .73 gears and not have to find a WC trans which will accept the .80 gear set or just plat it safe and go there any way. Of course I have to find a WC trans in good shape with the 295 .63 configuration and then the .80 gear kit . All of that is fraught with problems too.I need a gambler from Vegas to tell me the odds.!! Thanks for the graph Carl
Hi Dennis. As you can see I did all of my calculations at 3000 or 60 mph. As to the trans ,the chap I bought it from had it in a 68 Mustang . He is an engineer BTW and was putting a big block in the car and another trans. He said the trans was out of an 83 Capri which means it sould be 1352-065 Of course the tag was missing so I had to take his word I think we checked the 5th gear by manually rotating the input shaft and it checked out but .63 or.73 who knowsI think fo now I'm putting the car away and working on a TR3 that taking up all the room in my heated garage.Maybe i'll get lucky and find the correct WC trans over the winter.If any body has any ideas please send me a PM Thanks Tim
Quotewe checked the 5th gear by manually rotating the input shaft and it checked out but .63 or.73 who knows...
If done carefully, you should be able to distinguish between a 0.63 and a 0.73 fifth gear.
I have a spare Ford T5 in the garage with a 3.35 first and 0.68 O/D - all gear ratios identifiable using the input/output turn test.
Hello Graham . Nice to hear from somebody local. When I bought the trans about 3 years ago I knew very little about T5s .63 .73 what does that matter. Do you know of anyone with a spare t5 from an 85 mustang? that would be 1352-126 WC with a 335 first and a .80 5th Just the one I need! I think I'll post an ad on Kijiji and see what happens. If you seek you might find .As far as the trans being .63 or .73 I can find out when I pull it . I know for sure it's too tall Tim
If you know the vehicle application(s) for the 1352-126, then you can search wrecking yards on this site.
http://www.car-part.com/
Tim, The Turbo four T5's had a .79 OD. They have a 3.97 first though too.
Hi Jim.I have three 4 cylinder t5s and I'm pretty sure one is a Turbo but the input shaft is longer and my custom Triumph bellhousing is made specifically for the v8 length input shaft. . I really like the 295 first gear I have now but the 335 first would be OK so the 85 Mustang 1352-126 would solve all my problems. Just have to find one or build one . Tim
Here's a handy chart for identifying T5 applications and gear ratios - maybe there's another xsmn application/part that might suit
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm
Thanks Graham . I really appreciate that but I've been studying that chart ever since I decided to put a 2.3 Ford Turbo into a TR3 I'm restoring thee or four years ago.I/ve had some health issues since then and have decided to finish it as stock and sell it .So I put the a T5 in my TR2to get a nice five speed with no electrical issues. Tired of 3000 rpm at 60 mph . Still any help is always good Tim
Just an update on the5th gear problem on the Ford T5 in the TR2.I took a T5 trans with a335 first gear and .68 overdrive to my local transmission shop whose owner has a reputation for excellent and fairly priced work.He managed to find a set of gears that could be adapted. They were a31/55 nwc set in used condition. They did not line up on the wc output shaft without machining the big gear down a few thousands to make it narrower and moving the clip groove for the small gear so it sat properly in line with the big gear.With a new input shaft and new bearings a better replacement lay shaft I now have a rebuilt T5 transmission with a.82 overdrive for a very fair price of 900.00 dollars. That will be going in in a couple of months and will let you know the outcome when it happens. Looking forward to a happy ending and many thanks to all you guys who helped out with advice and knowledge Tim
You could have purchased a new 31T/55T WC gearset to get the same results without the machining expense.
Ultimately, you've got the ratios that you wanted - so congrats and the TR2 will be happier cruising on 401!
Hello Graham. Someone called Waterbucket posted on Sept 30 that Tremec no longer supplies .80 gearsets and any used sets are expensive. My guy found one gear available at 200 dollars but no matching gear As far as I know all aftermarket sets are for the 295 first gears wc trans which are more popular for racing.In the 335 first gear trans that gives a ratio of .92 so that is out.We were just lucky that the box of 5th gear sets that he bought from a retired tranny guy in London had one set that produced a final ratio of .82 even though they were nwc I think that is how all that came to be. When I started this project I thought well Ford has all kinds of gear ratios so this should be a piece of cake. Well I know a lot more now will let you know it all works out . Tim
The 0.80 fifth gear was principally used with the 2.95 first gear and was introduced on the Ford Cosworth Sierra and was then adopted by TVR with a different tailhousing. There were two problems with the 0.80 fifth gear set, the first is that it was fragile and was often the first thing to fail in these gearboxes, the second was that if the gears outlasted the bearings actually removing these gears often broke them anyway. These gears went out of production a long time ago and now alongside the 23 tooth input shaft are as scarce as hens teeth.
With a lack of OE parts and also to overcome their fragility aftermarket 0.80 gearsets were produced with racing in mind. These gears have bigger teeth but less of them and the are less helical in their manufacture, the upshot of this is that they are noisier. Not having heard them running I do not know how much noisier though.
It was this that decided me to sell my T5 ang go down the RX8 gearbox route, although these have their own problems (synchros linked to running up to 9500rpm) they can be bought for less than £100 ($130) so for the cost of a T5 overhaul I could buy ten of them.
The last downside of the 080 fifth gear is that with a high torque engine you need to change the diff ratio to get its real benefit
I did post the info regarding after market 5th gear sets for a T5. The original 0.80 5th gear was used on the Ford Cosworth Sierra and afterwards by TVR on their Rover V8 cars. The downside with the OEM 0.80 5th gear is that it is not very strong and was often the first thing in those particular T5's to fail, even if the gears did not fail in use removing them without a special puller often broke them anyway.
The after market ones are designed with racing in mind and have a much higher torque rating but they are of a straighter cut geartooth and the suppliers say they are not as quiet as the OEM. They also need a slight relieving of part of the gearcasing to get them to fit.
If your supplier has any more of the OEM 0.80 5th gearsets they typically make about $650 in the UK.
For info I show the speeds in the gears with a 2.95 gearset and 185/80/15 tyre as fitted to the TR6 and a 3.45 diff that was widely used in the UK
mph / RPM 1000 2000 3000 4000 5000 5500
1st Gear 7.8 15.6 23.4 31.2 39 42.9
2nd Gear 11.7 23.5 35.2 46.9 58.6 64.5
3rd Gear 17.2 34.3 51.5 68.6 85.8 94.3
4th Gear 23 46 69 91.9 114.9 126.4
5th Gear 28.7 57.5 86.2 114.9 143.6 158
And for the 3.35 gearset
mph / RPM 1000 2000 3000 4000 5000 5500
1st Gear 6.9 13.7 20.6 27.4 34.3 37.7
2nd Gear 11.9 23.8 35.7 47.6 59.5 65.5
3rd Gear 17.8 35.6 53.5 71.3 89.1 98
4th Gear 23 46 69 91.9 114.9 126.4
5th Gear 28.7 57.5 86.2 114.9 143.6 158
I would have thought that either gearset would be good for a TR, almost 29MPH/1000 rpm is not bad 2600rpm for 75mph. Indeed the TR6 first gear is 314 right in the middle of the two gearsets
Hi Phil. Thanks for that info. My transmisssion rebuilder had only one set of gears for the .80 over drive ratio and that was by accident and good luck .Could use lots more obviously. The20/32 gear set for the 2.95 first gear is available at The gear Box in south carolinafor 120 us. Nothing for the 335 trans as far as i know.After looking at the 5th gear numbers I keep wondering why the numbers are identical for both the 295 the 335 trans .They should be slightly different to reflect the two different first gears I would think. Am I missing something Tim
Tim,
I cannot put my fingers on the information right now, but I thought there was an issue with some 5th gear sets where the Ford and GM mainshaft splines were different, meaning some combinations cannot be used a Ford or vice-versa. You'll have to look into that.I find from Pro-Force Performance web page that your choices for 5th are:
for a 3.35 T5
.68 27/59t (what I have)
.73 25/51t
.83 31/33t
.92 33/53t (listed as no longer avail.)
for a 2.95 T5
.59 27/59t (what I would have if I had changed my input shaft and the 1-3 gears)
.63 25/51t
.72 31/55t
.80 33/53t (listed as NLA, but you find there are some available, but case mods may be required.)
I'm adding this, and it may be redundant, but you cannot just change the input and first gear to get a different
1st gear ratio. The input and 1-2-3 gears all have to be in a matching set. So, making a 3.35 1st gear T5 into a 2.95 1st
is prohibitively expensive unless you have access to the correct press and expertise. It kept me at 3.35 for that
reason only.
Dennis
To add my 2 cents worth - here's another web document on 5th gear ratio availability.
T55thgearratios.JPG
Hello Dennis and thanks for responding. It all helps . I think the 335 first gear trans on the .83 overdrive should be a 31/55 gear set cause that is what my guy put in my trans an the ex tyke from Chatham has that same listing in his email below yours.Ive come to the conclusion that the 335 ist gear is ok cause it is the same as the Triumph ist gear and only gets you started.The overdrive is all important for cruising.As to your car I know it has a lot of horsepower so why not just by a 295 /.63 WC transmission and swap out the one you have and sell it. I have a 295 first gear in the TR2 and it is wonderful . You would love it in your car.Thanks Tim
Well Tim, not going to the 2.95 1st gear was just a case of "where do you stop throwing money at it". I am not that happy with the 3.35 and V8, and could start in 2nd, but changing all the gears in my case would have been $1000 or so, and I would still have a weaker transmission than I would like. Going to a T5Z or another was just more than I wanted to spend. I cannot see myself actually needing the heavier trans
as hard launches from a start are not in my future - 20mph and punch it is more realistic. I did convince myself by calculating the 6000 rpm limit in 1st for both 3.35 and 2.95 gears, and it wasn't enough difference, or so I thought at the time. Now that I think about it, the actual issue is my exhaust is too loud. If I
keep up with the 6-8-10 speed SUV's, I find I'm making quite a racket, and the other drivers think I'm racing or something. Of course, I could give a good
many of them a run for it, but they would be silent, and I'm making a scene!
Dennis
Back in the old days, 1970's, the trans of choice was the t10 unless you were rich and could afford the m22. Typically everyone wanted the 2.20 first gear which was the close ratio box, the other was a 2.54 first which was a wide ratio. Now 2.95 is the first gear of choice in most cases with the t5. In my 2200lb Healy 100-6 with a 289 ford stroked to 327 with the 2.20 t10 and narrowed Pontiac rear with 4.88 gears first gear was very usable. Now with my mgb with the 2.95 t5 and 3.90 rear the numbers should be very similar as to functionality. The 3.35 always seems short to me. Also the more evenly spread the ratios within the trans the more user friendly in my opinion
Following along, I find I may not have done enough due diligence before staying with the 3.35 T5. As posted by Don Foote, the 2.20 t10 and 4.88 rear gives a total reduction of 10.736. The 2.95 T5 with 3.90 rear will be 11.505, which is a little lower. My setup is 3.35 T5 with 3.54 rear, giving 11.859. No wonder it seems to spin up so fast! Gravel hauling anyone? If I had done the 2.95 with my 3.54,
I would be at 10.443, very close to the Healey that was mentioned.
Well, if I have to pull the trans for any reason, I will more seriously consider the 2.95 change.
On a brighter note, the little noisemaker came out of the garage today for the first time in 2019! Started up as if it had run yesterday!
OK little red car, are you setting me up?
Dennis
Hi Dennis. I read up on your build and thought you did a great job . Not that I know anything. You say your a first timer but you must know something to do so well.There is lots of conversation on getting a better sound on the TR6 /V8 conversion and cant be too expensive .And same with the transmission swap . you could get the one you want and sell the existing one to balance the cost . Then you would have the car you really want . As a friend of mine always says .Think of the Glory Tim
The TR2 should be able to pull 5th gear at 2000 rpm unless you have a very radical cam. The old British engines with their long strokes were built more for torque not high RPM power. My Morris Minor Traveler runs just fine at 2000 RPM in 5th (I put in a 5 speed conversion) and the car is heaver than a TR2 with a much smaller engine. Are you sure the TR2 is tuned optimally? It is derived from a tractor engine...
Hi Larry Changing the 295 /.63 trans for the 335/.82 trans should solve my problem .82 overdrive is identical to the Triumph electric overdrive but without the bother, The car runs great other wise.Motor has a planned 4A head and 13/4 SU carbs. Lots of power. Will report when the tranny gets changed . Working on a 66 4A now for a little while Tim Forgot to say the 335 trans is like the first gear in a Triumph trans . Not my favorite but it will have to do.