BritishV8 Forum

QuoteRover 4.0 & Megasquirt
Posted by: galotis
Date: August 08, 2014 09:10PM

Hello, I am new to this board and am looking for information so I don't have to "re create the wheel" . I am very familiar with megasquirt. I have a friend who has a Rover 4.0 /Gems motor. I will be putting this in a 1980 MGB. What I am looking for is a short list.

1) Can I use the fly wheel trigger if I am using a 5 speed vs automatic?
2) looking for any fuel and timing maps to start with.
3) sequential injection any one timing this?

And any other info that I might need.

Yes I have searched the board, got a lot of info but not to the listed questions.

George

Hello, I am new to this board and am looking for information so I don't have to "re create the wheel" .  I am very familiar with megasquirt. I have a friend who has a Rover 4.0 /Gems motor.  I will be putting this in a 1980 MGB. What I am looking for is a short list.

1) Can I use the fly wheel trigger if I am using a 5 speed vs automatic?
2) looking for any fuel and timing maps to start with.
3) sequential injection any one timing this?

And any other info that I might need.

Yes I have searched the board, got a lot of info but not to the listed questions.

George

one 4.0 ready for rebuild
4.01.jpg

Welcome to BritishV8, George! I've moved your post from our "MG" to our "Drivetrain" sub-forum to help it get more attention.

You asked: "Can I use the fly wheel trigger if I am using a 5 speed vs automatic?"  

I don't see why not. Pull up this photo and look at the gold ring that's riveted to an original 4.0 flexplate: http://www.roverparts.com/product/img/img/FPFW_LARGE.jpg  -  I don't see why you couldn't transfer one of these rings to the back of a 5-speed compatible flywheel (purchased from someplace like D&D). You'll obviously need eight very accurately placed holes for rivets (or screws), and you might also need to have a flat surface machined onto the flywheel's back side to accept the ring. Hopefully you won't need a spacer ring. I'd entrust the job to my machinist friend - I enjoy every minute I spend hanging out in his shop - and I'd ask him to lighten the flywheel too at the same time. Since both a lathe and a milling machine are required. I'm guessing two hours of shop time. Sounds like fun!

"looking for any fuel and timing maps to start with."

Several of us have MegaSquirted our BOPR engines, though not with GEMS as the starting point. My Buick 215 has been fitted with 4.0 heads, intake manifold, and injectors - but most everything else is different. I'll attach an MSQ file here as a starting point. (Pull it up in Tuner Studio and you'll be able to see my fuel and ignition maps.) You can review other engine specs <a href="http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson.htm">here</a>. Not sure if it will help you, but it's something.  

CurtisJacobsonsBuick215.msq

"sequential injection any one timing this?"

I'm running sequential, but I won't bother trying to optimize it for awhile yet. (No EGR sensors. Can't afford dyno time. Etc.)

More sophisticated guys than me will probably jump in here soon.

Curtis, thanks for the welcome, I am planning on stripping all the gems8 off. I use GM sensors on my other play toy, so will see what I can use here. Thanks for the msq file. that will be a great start. Am looking at a kit from Trigger-wheel.com

My friend who I am doing this for would like it on the road by 2nd week Sept.  tall order but we are going to try. I have tried to call D&D but have no luck, not sure if their still open. Any other good suppliers out there? Need motor mounts, flywheel and bell housing for a T5 or T56, not sure which yet.

Nice GT!

George,

I use squential injection, and there is a noticeable improvement it low speed driveabilty. I've played around with the injector timing table some, however it doesn't seem to make a huge difference on my engine. This could be because I run an open plenum manifold though.

I would think that Curtis's set up should get you close as far as fuel and timing maps go. It is similar in overall design and his engine is running well.

Bill

So Curtis,

Who is your machinist friend? Are you still using the guy in NC or your buddy in Colorado?

Tim

Scott McRoberts: http://www.mcrobertsmachine.com/index.htm

There are guys in England that frequent the forum attached here http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/index.php  There is also a forum in Australia for some kind of swamp buggies or hillclimbers or some other fringe powersport, can't remember which.  They build some insane megasquirted Rover V8s.  Happy hunting.

Any one using the knock sensors on the 4.0 block?

Next problem to solve is the water pump on a 4.0 spins opposite of the crank. Any one deal with this yet.

Just acquired the T5, 1352-169.  Working on finding pulleys for the crank, and alternator and idler pulley. looking for 5 or 6 ribbed.

QuoteJust acquired the T5, 1352-169. Working on finding pulleys for the crank, and alternator and idler pulley. looking for 5 or 6 ribbed.

I have the same one if I recall correctly. It's a Ford T5, which I'm sure you already know.

Thanks, Curtis.

Tim

"Next problem to solve is the water pump on a 4.0 spins opposite of the crank. Any one deal with this yet."

Can't you just use a Buick front cover with a conventional water pump?

I think that question is compounded by which oil pump is fitted. That was about then they went to the concentric, crank driven pump. Better in my opinion but bulkier down around the damper. I see no reason why the later engine with the serpentine drive could not be used, but there might be some interference issues to deal with.

Jim

with only the crank, water pump and alternator, I am looking at using a idler pulley on the other side.  will check interference. I am keeping the 4.0 front cover because I want to keep and use the cam sensor in the cover.

QuoteI see no reason why the later engine with the serpentine drive could not be used...

Jim Stuart did it, but slid the engine back a smidge more. There are pics of his modded engine mounts.

http://www.britishv8.org/MG/JimStuart4.htm

Would love to talk to Jim, is there a way to message him on here?

Go here - http://forum.britishv8.org/profile.php?2,53 - and click on "Send a Private Message".

Isn't that the yellow GT? In that car if I am not mistaken he used the 300 Buick engine, the late model crossmember, and was able to get the engine to fit below the RV8 hood. Does that sound right?

Jim

Nope, It's the roadster with 4.0 and serpentine belt. Looks like he slotted the mounts to set engine a little further back and modded the steering rack mounts for clearance.

Jim Stuart has built a lot of these Buick/Rover MGV8s over the years. At Annapolis in 1998, he had a blue '74.5 GT w/Rover 4.2L.  He let me drive it even though he had just met me (my 1st V8 Meet). Years later, he practically made me drive the yellow GT.  What a guy. :)

Found a flywheel that was factory for a 4.0 Manual. it has the timing teeth set in, saving me a lot of time.
20140822_134156.jpg

Very cool! What does that thing weigh?

22 lbs

Seriously? Very good.

Shouldn't be too hard to take a couple more pounds out of it too.

I've improved my tune quite a bit since August, so I thought I'd upload the updated tune file.

This one is much more fuel efficient: My-Buick-Rover-V8-MS3-EFI-Tune.msq

(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/AFR-Table-Rover-V8-or-Buick-215.jpg)

(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/AFR-Map-Rover-V8-or-Buick-215.jpg)

(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/VE-Table-Rover-V8-or-Buick-215.jpg)

(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/Spark-Advance-Table-Rover-V8-or-Buick-215.jpg)

Comments welcome.

Curtis, Looks good. I have heard that 12.5 AF for full throttle,13.5 for acceleration and around 14 at idle, but what are you gaining by going over 15 at cruise RPM?

Any one know if a Rover pressure plate will work with a Mustang disk? I am using a T5 with a 10 spline input shaft. If I have to will drill new mounting holes to mount a Mustang plate, but would love to know if I can get away with not.  

Curtis, nice looking msq.

Should work fine, most clutch discs are about the same thickness.

Jim

Quotewhat are you gaining by going over 15 at cruise RPM?

Fuel economy to/in/from "The Blacklands" averaged ~2.1mpg better than my cross-country trip on the old tune.

I'd hoped for more improvement! I averaged 24.1mpg, running E10 the whole time and mostly driving "normally" rather than trying to get good mileage.  All sorts of roads and speed limits, including 35mph park roads and 80mph highways. Some rushing to get to Moss Motoring Challenge destinations before sunsets. So maybe 24 isn't "bad", but I believe I should be averaging 28 or 30mpg (U.S.) overall on road trips.

As I read up on the subject, it seems I've been overly cautious. Apparently, "cruise" AFRs in the 16-17 to 1 range are common. Even the most conservative articles I've found suggest a target around 15.7:1. But I'm not sure exactly how they define cruise.  

A few words about the maps above:  The y-axis correlates almost directly with MAP sensor measurements (of manifold vacuum). I only get into the bottom "25% load" row when completely off the throttle and decelerating hard (i.e. engine braking). Touching the throttle or clutch pedals will immediately lift me out of that row. Typically, if I'm in the 30 or 35% rows, it's because I'm feathering the throttle pedal to slow my rate of deceleration. I can generally maintain speed on flat ground in the 40, 45, or 50% rows (depending on speed, gear, wind, etc.)  When my engine is warm, it idles at 40% load and ~870rpm. If it's cold, higher. Acceleration at wide open throttle will put me into the 85% row. I wonder if a better flowing exhaust system might help me get into the 90% row. (Boost from a supercharger or turbo lets some people go way beyond 100%.)  

So, to my way of thinking, cruise means 40-50% load at 1700+ rpm.

One reason I've been cautious about going leaner is higher temperatures. I don't have a way to measure combustion or cylinder head or even oil temperature. Just based on coolant temperature, it seems I have a long way to go. On both trips (and in fact ever since I installed EFI)  my coolant temperatures tend to run in the low to mid 160s while I'm driving. I should replace my 160 degree coolant thermostat with a 180 degree thermostat.

I logged data on three different stretches... 25-35mph on a twisty road, 55mph on the main Black Hills park road, and 75mph on an Eastern Wyoming byway. If anyone is interested, I could extract a few screen shots from MegaLog Viewer.

Thanks, Curtis!  I had no idea you could run that lean. There might be a gauge diesel truckers use to monitor exhaust temps when they upgrade their Turbo's. I would look at my spark plug insulators(bright white instead of tan) and exhaust pipe tips (frosty white)as too lean indicators. Speaking of spark plugs a lot of guys are switching from AC to NGK projected nose for wide heat range. I think they are gapped at .040.

I use an EGT gage plugged into one of the headers where the O2 wideband sensor is on the other side, in the collector. I Shoot for temps approaching 1500* that far from the ports. I think you can go to about 1800 at the ports. On a long upgrade you can watch EGT and water temp to dial in the timing advance. You want to keep the heat in the engine instead of the pipes but not make the coolant start creeping up on you as you go up the hill. Once that's sorted it's easier to lean the mixture. That will usually show up as elevated EGT readings without much effect on the coolant to the best of my recollection.

Jim

Just for the record, my Innovate wide band tailpipe sniffer with 17" extension says I am at 15.6-15.8 at cruise. At cruise to me means 2600-2900rpm (75-80mph) on level Interstate on cruise control. Changes about a point either way if going up or down hill. This yields 25-26mpg on E10 with a carburetor.  I can live with that.

4.0 Block ready to assemble
20141020_163856a.jpg

re: "4.0 Block ready to assemble"

I'm envious! Surprised to see the black finish though.


re: "...my Innovate wide band tailpipe sniffer with 17" extension says I am at 15.6-15.8 at cruise...."

I may get there or beyond yet. For the time being, I've installed a warmer thermostat and adjusted my AFR table 2 baby steps leaner. I'll be curious to see if fuel economy changes noticeably. Just one more roadtrip planned this year...
(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/AFR-Table-Rover-V8-or-Buick-215-rev02.jpg)
(I adjusted the VE table too, using VE Analyzer.)

Here is the next step, The flywheel with 10" Mustang clutch plate mounted and balanced will be back from shop Fri. Should have motor/trans mounted in car by end of weekend.  The plenum Bottom plate is being cut down and we will be test fitting to see if we can clear the hood.
20141022_140012a.jpg

Side view
20141022_140026a.jpg

Then the fun begins wiring up the Megasquirt V3.
20141022_133549a.jpg

What pilot bushing should I use to match the T5 and rover crank?

10 inch Mustang pressure plate mounted on Rover flywheel. nice fit.
20141024_142132a.jpg

Rover Meet T5.  Soon to be installed
20141031_134646a.jpg

McLeod Racing throw out bearing/slave
20141031_1101122a.jpg

passenger side header pass throw hole
20141031_163100a.jpg

Drivers side header pass threw hold
20141031_163111a.jpg

Need some info, I have seen in Jim Stuart's photo's and write up that he is using a serpentine belt. the question is how much of a difference is there between the 3.9 and 4.0 front cover. my front pulley is 5 in from block to outside edge.  that doesn't appear to be enough room to mount an alternator.   So any one got a good photo of a set up or know what will work?

Late 3.9 front covers are identical to the 4.0 in Discoveries.

'94/'95 Discos and '95 RRCs with 3.9s and 4.2s used the same front cover. The dimensions are identical to those used in Discos through 99-1/2 (GEMS EMS).

The earlier engines with the distributor driven oil pumps had shorter crankshafts than those with the crank-driven oil pumps.

All of the Rover V8s had the alternators mounted up high

Very interested in this thread since it's the same kind of build I'm doing. 4.6L GEMS, GM T5 and converting to megasquirt 3.

Keep us updated!

Jim, he put the Serp belt assembly in his maroon roadster, he also had the yellow gt. I talked to him a while back, I believe he sold both cars but could be wrong.

QuoteRover 4.0 project restart after 3 years
Posted by: galotis
Date: June 05, 2018 04:10PM

Hey guys, I am starting up an old project, installing a 4.0 rover in a LE MGB, started this 3 years ago, owner couldn't finish it then, but can now, two of the problems I was working on when I left off was what front cover to use and how to get more clearance for the oil take off ports. this will be an EFI motor and the plenum and intake have been shaved to clear bonnet. Owner wants AC so will need to find the brackets to mount the compressor and the alternator. taking suggestions..

20180603_145731.jpg
20180603_145646.jpg

QuoteRe: Rover 4.0 project restart after 3 years
Posted by: 88v8
Date: June 06, 2018 04:31AM

If it helps with understanding where you're already at, I'd continue the old topic.

So, is that a crossbolt block with a P6 cover?
Someone has a made a new cover, umm, John Eales... here it is... scroll down... any use?
[johnealesroverv8.co.uk]

Ivor

Threads are now merged (in a funky manner), George.

It would be helpful to know what front cover you are using.

Carl, the present front cover is the original that was on the 4.0 motor when pulled out of the range rover.  I know the plenum cover is a 3.9, I am using that to clear the hood, the 4.0 cover is flat and wont clear with out milling more off then reasonable.

It is a 4 bolt main.

I would like to keep the original cover only due to the cam sensor is in it, and I need a cam sensor for sequential injection. If there is a better cover that also has a provision for a cam sensor and better clearance for oil ports then that would be ideal.

I looked at the one from John Eales, not sure if I can tap it for a cam sensor, anyone know?

Thanks for merging the two treads.

I'd ask John Eales, he's very helpful.

Ivor

George, I think you should stay with the newer front cover if you can. Probably it can be modified if needed. The water pump can be driven by either side of a serpentine belt so the serp belt can be used with either late or early covers.

Now the old style cover can also be used. For instance, on my 340 I have a VR pickup mounted in an aluminum block that bolts on with the old fuel pump bolts. The trigger wheel is a row of 1/4" holes drilled in the lower pulley.  With your flywheel trigger you wouldn't need that. The cam sensor goes in the distributor hole and drives the oil pump. I modded a distributor to make one but you can use one from a Buick V6. Not cheap, though maybe you could find a better price:
https://www.amazon.com/SU164-Engine-Camshaft-Position-Sensor/dp/B000C98W3Q

Jim

All you need  is a single pulse per cam revolution George.
That means that any of the covers can be modified easily to accommodate that.
So pick a cover that works for your oiling and cooling and worry about the pickup after.
You could modify an old distributor with an old cover like Jim did. Utilize a newer cover with the sensor already built in. Build a wheel for the cam gear or drill it for a single pin and set up the Eales cover to read it. The fuel pump cam is fair game as well.You could even drill a valve cover and mount a sensor to read a single rocker. The megasquirt will accommodate pretty much any signal that you give it as long as its only once per cam revolution. The only caveat is don't have the crank sensor missing tooth and the cam pulse line up together.
This can cause sync. errors.
 I've never experienced the problem but I hear that it happens.

live like you mean it
Fred

thanks guys, will email Eales and see. will post what I decide.

I'm working a similar build, only much more slowly.  I think you're already a bit ahead!

I test fitted my 4.6 with T5 trans, and I concluded the stock front cover would fit.  The latest style cover wasn't as thick as the interim style that still had casting dimensions for a distributor, so the water pump sits a bit closer in.  

The challenge is the oil filter.  You can take off the factory 70-degree elbow and fit a remote filter cap, I think/hope.  It will be very close.

I would not be afraid to do a bit of cutting and TIG welding to modify the filter mount on those. You're quite a ways from the pump cavity. I think you should be able to put it just about anywhere you like.

Jim

I just realized you're already facing the oil filter close tolerances problem.

I have looked all over for a bolt-on solution to give more remote oil filter clearance, and have only a few ideas:

There's one remote filter maker that has the two hose ports going 90 degrees from the filter screw post, and offset. One is centered on the cap, the other is to the side of it.  I was thinking I could use that, rotate it 90 degrees so the ports face the right wheel of the car, then use hoses with elbows, giving maybe another 1/2" of clearance near the rack.  I can't find the exact piece, but you could start with these and cut/fabricate a bit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-1731

https://old-stf.com/products/lowbrow-filtromax-motorcycle-r-harley-chopper-remote-oil-filter-mount-universal

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/engines/230865-remote-oil-filter-kubota-diesel.html

I'm hoping to find an OEM part that has a flat face I can drill to match the factory elbow screw holes, but so far I've struck out.

I'm trying to avoid customizing the cover, since it's a wearable item.

The 4.0/4.6 cover also has brass plugs for an optional oil cooler. it may be possible to use one or both of those as the "in" or the "out" for the remote filter lines, allowing a lower profile custom cap on the stock filter location.

Found it!

Look at the Rover/Buick v8 reference halfway down the page.  I'm not sure, but it looks like part "I" is a bolt-on piece using four screws.  Not sure if the pattern matches the 4.0/4.6 though, might be for 3.5L engines.

Alternatively, part "P" rotated 90 degrees toward the wheel will give you a bit more room, I think.

http://www.mocal.co.uk/products-octakeoffs.html

Yeah, "I" is for the 215/3.5L cover and is a lower oil pump cover.

You might be able to use banjo fittings for a tight 90* bend. They should be available to fit whatever threads you are working with.

Jim

I finally got a close & greasy look at my 4.6 this weekend, and I think you can skip all aftermarket angle pieces for a remote oil filter.

The two large bolts on the front cover above the oil filter are each tied directly to an "out" or "in" oil passage in the front cover.

I think braided hoses will screw right into those bolt holes.

Then blank off the original filter location using a drain plug or bolt with sealer to seal off the center passage, and an aluminum plate with 4 holes and some gasket material to match those on the machined surface that used to mate with the 70-degree elbow.

Clearance problems solved!

Dave, I will look the two bolts, and see if that will work, thanks for all the input.

You're very welcome, glad I could contribute.

I'm still googling the problem, and I think the bypass bungs on the 4.6 cover are M20x1.5 threads.  There's cheap AN12 adapters available.

According to this thread on another board, https://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4670 , be sure to check the bottom bolt closely, I think the Rover oil filler hoses that used those holes had a special fitting on the bottom hole to fully block off the internal passage.

Another possible option (I've not seen it actually done, but it looks good) is a Buick 3.8 v6 cover from the late 1980s;

http://www.aamidwest.com/enginequest/timing-covers/

Look for part #s TC181C and TC181D, using the crank-driven oil pump.  One of them has an inverted u-shaped oil filter adapter that likely fits right over the MGB steering rack.  Would be an elegant answer for a 4.6 megasquirt setup, if it all fits. You may have to buy the later style Buick splined oil pump gears separately.  Likely also requires a Buick 215 oil pan, or Rover SD1 oil pan to match the front cover bolt holes, but that gives you more ground clearance anyway.

Dave,

That TC181D is an interesting possibility. Would need a water pump to fit it, possibly different rotation? Also not sure what that opening below the water pump is for. Anyone ever tried match one up to the Rover?

Sadly, I can't help further.  I don't think anyone has put that style of Buick cover onto a 4.0/4.6.  I expect the water pump would be different, but probably very cheap and easy to find.

Google " Buick v6 timing cover gerotor oil pump crankshaft," or some combo of that, and some Buick-specific threads will pop up.  A few guys have welded two different covers together to make a gerotor pump cover with a distributor boss, and some other guys have retrofitted Series II covers onto series I blocks.  Based on the oil-passage discussions in all those threads, I think it all could work with some minimum fabrication.  There may be one oil passage off a bit, but I'm not sure.  Buick changed its block casting in 1988-ish, rebranding it from the "3.8" to the "3800."  I think the timing cover above is for the LN3 vin "c" engines, one of the last 3.8s, but I'm not sure.

I can't tell from the internet if there would be an issue with the oil pump drive keys, crankshaft length, or space for timing chain.  It looks like one set of Buick pump gears would mate with a rover crank.  Presumably the later rover cranks are long enough, and others have used spacers to seal any gaps between non-stock rover covers and later cranks.  Some of the Buick guys mention timing chain clearance,  but I'm not sure of those details.

I did all the digging for these covers hoping to find a non-Rover timing cover with a distributor and a gerotor oil pump, but I'm now pretty sure that Buick didn't make one.

The Rover 3.9 interim cover puts the oil filter flange in a bad spot, so bad that you can't drop one into an MGB without moving the rack first.  I was hoping Buick would be the solution.  

If you're not looking to experiment, I'm thinking a remote filter off the 4.0 cover is the way to go.

I really need to hop on this site more often.

So to solve the oil filter issue I just found a cheap "universal" remote filter adapter that was the right size. I placed the remote filter in the very front of the passenger front wheel well. It should be out of the way enough to be safe, it's not far from the engine, and replacing the filter for an oil change should be easy.

I'll see if I can get some pictures up in the next day or two.

I also just finished the alternator setup (Ford 4G 130amp) and serpentine belt yesterday. The Ford 4G alternator from a V8 Explorer that was a junkyard pick and ended up working even better than I could have hoped do to its mounts and short length. It sits on the front of the cylinder head, I fabbed up a mount to put the stock tensioner on the other head and the belt routing spins the pump the correct way. The only thing I dislike about it is I can't find a 7-groove pulley for the alternator so I'm running a 6-rib belt. Worst case scenario is I have a custom pulley milled, but I don't want to spend that kind of cash right now.

A new problem I'm now running into is the coolant hoses. The GEMS P38s had the stupidest coolant system setup I've ever seen with a weird thermostat/multiple hose junction pod. The intake does have a legacy spot for a traditional thermostat in the housing, but I'm not sure how all the hose routing is going to work. Also does anybody know if someone still builds a swivel thermostat housing? Or does anyone have one laying in the garage that they'd part with?

I'm quickly approaching the point where I'm going to be wiring up the MS3 and setting that up. Gonna need Curtis to hold my hand through that.

"Gonna need Curtis to hold my hand through that."

Are you aware he no longer resides in Colorado?

>Are you aware he no longer resides in Colorado?

Well that's gonna make things a bit more inconvenient.

Some pics:

Looking in the wheel well you can see the filter relocation adapter above the steering and the hoses coming out into the wheel well
20180821_151842.jpg

Which lead to the remote filter tucked safely away. If it seems like it's getting too dirty or anything I'll fab up a little sheet metal shield to protect it more, but I think it'll be fine.
20180821_151835.jpg

And a view from above, you can see the hoses down there. Also shows the Ford 4G alternator and serp belt.
20180821_151811_2.jpg

I looked through all my emails and stuff but I couldn't find which exact part I ordered for the filter adapter. I think I got it from Summit Racing. I just looked up the threads for the filter and found an adapter that matched and had in & out ports on the same side. The one I used in particular also had 2 ports opposite and came with block off plugs.

With no more load than the alternator and water pump that will probably work OK, but for future reference please take note that the tensioner is in the wrong place, in fact nearly the worst place possible. It should be on the slack side of the belt, just before the driving pulley (crankshaft) with the pivot outside and below the tensioning pulley. That way it applies the most tension to the loosest part of the belt. Yours could loosen under rapid acceleration, but chances are good it'll be alright. You should check it by winging the throttle open a few times. If the belt does jump grooves at some point you will know where to look.

Jim

Hadn't thought of that. I'll play with it when I get it running and if need be I can put an idler pulley there and move the tensioner.