Found this in my lifter valley. No telling how long it has been there. Very light & same curvature as the bore. I believe is is a piece of a piston skirt. I know, I really shouldn't have been revving the piss out of those cast pistons all these years. It always got me home. ;)
Pistonskirt1.jpg
Pistonskirt2.jpg
Pistonskirt3.jpg
Pistonskirt4.jpg
Pistonskirt5.jpg
OK it's definitely a piece of piston skirt. But the good news is that it does not break into the oil ring.
Jim
Yeah, it appears to be from the bottom of the skirt. Best news is that it got me home from our ChumpCar race at VIR in Danville, VA. Sooooo, maybe Ol' Red has one more V8 Meet before it's new engine time. Hold muh beer.......
Carl, One question. How did it get in the lifter valley? It should have went in the pan.
Yeah, one would think. I guess the crankshaft knocked it up there. I have never seen anything in the oil. I was considering dropping the pan just to see what else might be in there. Thing is my last trip was over 460 miles round trip. I may replace the head gaskets & forget I ever saw this. I have to get to my 20th V8 Meet in 32 days.
How hard is it to get the pan off?
Shouldn't be difficult. Plenty of clearance. Not sure of the need..
Just at a guess I doubt it's the only piece that came off. The breaks are fresh and clean and you would normally expect a crack to begin at a stress point. Stock pistons commonly had a pair of voids or openings, one on either side of the wrist pin. Those would be a feasible point of origin for a crack because of the unsupported metal below the opening. Meaning that the broken off piece would then have a small unbroken edge on the top side. I suspect you may have such a piece in the oil pan. Not that it would keep the engine from running, and even getting you to the meet and back. And if that is where it started it is again, not in a critical part of the skirt. The angle of the end also suggests there has to be another piece.
Jim
Not to skirt the issue.... is there some additional noise of discontent, from the danger zone ?
You're so close to the problem Carl. It would be a shame not to go just a little further.
I'd pull the pan and replace the pistons.
Run it out for the season and fix it properly next winter.
Or "spin the wheel of tragedy" and see what happens.
Cheers
Fred
It should be possible to just replace the one broken piston. We did that with Matthew's 383. It came to us with a broken ring land and fresh heads so we just pulled the pan, popped that rod and piston out, and replaced it and he's been running it ever since, with the same rings and bearings.
There should be markings on the piston itself that will help you to identify it. Odds are reasonable that the replacement is still going to be available, but even if not, as long as you find all the pieces you can match a comparable one to the same weight and check top ring position if there is any ridge in the cylinder. If it doesn't rise any higher in the bore or there's no ridge you're good to go.
Jim
I'm reminded of my best friend in high school who, one-by-one, kept replacing broken pistons in his 289. Eventually, he traded that good running 66 Mustang for a 67 Fairlane GT 390.
Thanks, Paul. :)
Cast pistons were not meant for the life they have lived in my MG. Need a short term quick fix. May run it, may go with one piston. Not sure I can swap a whole set of pistons/rings by June with the engine in the car. Not to mention what I will see when I get a look at the rod bearings.
Knew this day was coming. Ol' Red always got me home. May have to park her.
Hope your bearing is good. My first was a hi-po Buick and I ran the snot out of it, figured it'd be OK with 7 grand with that short stroke. Well, apparently not. Cracked a piston skirt, scored the cylinder, and spun the bearing. But you were lucky. First sign I had was loss of power and lots of smoke.
Jim
I'll take lucky over good every day of the week, & 2 or 3 times on Sunday! :)
Yeah, back when I swapped out my cast pistons for forged, a couple of the rod bearings were starting to get down to the copper. It never did knock or make noise but apparently they didn't like the 6500 RPM shift points.
Now I never rev it past 6000 and usually not past 5500 and the engine (and my wallet) seem to be a lot happier!
BTW Carl,
If you ever get around to updating to EFI and ditching that dinosaur carburetor;-) you'll find that most EFI systems allow you to set a rev limiter to help prevent self induced damage!
Bill
I am champ at self-induced damage, Bill. :)
I don't normally wind it out past 5000 or so on the street. Different story on track days, autox, or slaying the Tail of the Dragon. 16 years of abuse on cast pistons, knew this day way coming ( was hoping for this one last season). Grateful I am not stranded a long way from home.
So have you decided on what you're going to do? Time is getting shorter by the minute! I still have things to complete as well!!
Not quite.
I got the driver side head off. About to go pull the pan. Turning the engine by hand, I can't see any skirt below the cylinder on #7, like I can on the rest. If it is #7, then that noise I heard at VIR was only the cracked header on the opposite side. This may be the elusive cold start knocking/piston slap noise, I have been hearing that for years.
It might be. You'll know more when you get the pan off. See what identifying marks you can find on the piston once you have it out and we'll try to help identify it and look for a replacement.
Goes without saying, you're excused from the upcoming weekend here. But just to be clear about it. You need to get your ride back together. Whatever we can do to help, we will.
There's some chance I'll have my car off the rack before the weekend. So we'll be swapping that pumpkin in the RM. I'm sure three of us can handle that.
Jim
Plan A is out. It is #7 & most all of the full shirt below the wrist pin is gone all the way around. Bee rockin' itself to pieces for awhile.
So, I need one good 1963 Buick 215 JN block 11:1 piston, standard bore . Almost a flattop. Markings say 1353005 Buick on one side & C, then a circle with a 6 in it & BOHNALITE.
Buick215brokenSkirt.jpg
Skirt used to look like this.
215Piston.jpg
Looks pretty good actually. Any ring land in the cylinder? Bearing OK?
Have you gathered up all the pieces? You should do that so you can get the total piston weight.
Flat top? Should be able to measure the pin height. Match the pin height and piston weight, slap it back together and run.
It doesn't look like the Silvolite that Summit is selling, but close. They have a slipper style that should work if the weight and CH is close:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s1718-std/overview/make/buick
I wouldn't worry too much about the compression ratio.
Jim
May have lost a few smaller pieces years ago doing an oil change. Never saw any, though. It is very, very close to being a flat top. I would think a slipper piston would be much lighter. Dale said if this was a slipper, it would have likely grenaded the engine.
I had this idea that Dan Lagrou might have one way back in the corner of his shop somewhere. I am trying to reach Mark.
There must be other vendors that might have one as well. Phil Baker in Washington comes to mind. Also, Moss could possibly have something. Even TA Performance, they used to be Kenne-Bell. All the old vendors. Probably no Vintage OEM though, it seemed the High Compression Buick 215 supply dried up just about completely in the 80's so you really are looking for something in the corner or take-outs. Which could be a possibility. You're at a stock bore size aren't you? (Better check it.) Mine are long gone so no help there.
Seriously though, I wouldn't get all that hung up on CR. First off, the Buick 4bbl engine was 10-1/4:1 so I'm wondering where you got this 11:1 figure from. Then, the Buick factory CR specs tended to be flexible and optimistic, and the only engine in the series that I know of that really could have been 11:1 was the Olds Turbo motor. (Weird, right?) But it had the same chamber volume as the 4bbl Buick heads. Then what if one cylinder is lower compression? It'll still run just fine. Lose a smidge of power maybe but how long do you plan to run that engine?
Now, let's review CR a bit. All Buick heads have the same chamber volume? So they changed CR with the pistons right? All Olds used the same pistons so they changed CR with the heads? I think that's right. Harry used 2bbl Buick pistons to build a 2bbl Olds and got about 6.5 CR out of it. Still ran. Worked as a spare, but idle wasn't great and mileage sucked. With a turbo mounted on it it was tolerable. Even carbed it beat hell out of an 1800.
So a any Olds piston would also work. How about 3.5 Rover? Do a quick calc of chamber volume and you might find one of those is also close enough.
Jim
Mark LaGrou is going to check the back corners of the attic. A local club friend is retired from GM & has sent a request to Detroit friends.
I would prefer a good used piston & reuse the rings/rod bearings as you mentioned & forget any honing.
As for CR, the 10.25:1 you quote is for the 185HP 4bbl in 1961 & 1962. In 1963, they bumped the CR to 11:1 & rated it at 200HP.
http://www.carnut.com/specs/gen/buick60.html
Carl, give us a skirt diameter and where measured, in relation to pin location. I'll look as soon as I can. Good Luck, Art.
I would be very cautious about using flat top Olds pistons, with Buick heads. Valves are in different location !
Carl,
What I still can't believe is that the large piece made it up to the lifter valley! You would think it would have jamed itself in the bottom end. And how did it not wipe out the cam getting up there, or lock up a push rod???
Engine gods were smiling up on you!
Carl, just an idea... I dont know much about the BOPR series of motors. If you can't find a piston, is there a BOPR you could pick up used that'll work with your headers, bell housing and accessories? If so, maybe you could swap out the motor or short block at least. Then simply resell it after the meet. I've don that with expensive tools. Sometimes even made money when reselling.
Tony Gentile just posted an engine for sale - maybe something here?
http://www.racingjunk.com/Engines-Components/182848326/Buick-3.5-liter-aluminum-V8.html?quickSearch=1&categoryId1=&searchString=road+race&hideNotification=true&page=17&offset=169&from=search
Carl,
Glad you decided to investigate further. It would have sucked to have that piston let go during the meet. You still have 3 weeks (from today!) to get something in place.
Scott
Hope you're looking at the motor Tony posted:
http://www.racingjunk.com/Engines-Components/182848326/Buick-3.5-liter-aluminum-V8.html?quickSearch=1&categoryId1=&searchString=road+race&hideNotification=true&page=17&offset=169&from=search
Sounds about like the motor you bought when you did your conversion originally. Oklahoma, $500.
Jim
The engine I bought 16+ years ago for $600 was already rebuilt. :) I have options (besides R&R and rebuilding an engine in 3 weeks). Too short on time. I drove my dad's original owner '63 B to the MG V8 Meet in Westlake, Ohio in 2000. It may be coming to WV. :)
Dale Spooner said he has seen a piece o' skirt in the lifter valley once before. The cam looks good. I was surprised.
I agree with caution on the Olds flat top piston, Art. I do believe it would work with my "stock" cam. My 11:1 piston only has a .010" dish & is .060" below the deck. The head gasket was a compressed .050". IF the Olds has the same compression height, I'd try it.
My piston measures 3.502 on the wrist pin centerline. There is not much skirt left.
That engine above isn't rebuilt?
Not the way I read it. Also, local pickup only in Oklahoma
" engine was dismantled for rebuild but my project list has changed..."
There's a few sets of used piston and rod sets on Ebay right now.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?11,59123
I have been watching Ebay & did leave James a message. Heath Racing in Knoxville may have one, but said it will be a while before he can get around to tearing down the engines.
Meanwhile, Mark Lagrou put on his coal minors hat & dug around in the dark corners of Dan's past. Said he found one just like mine. We will see.
Meanwhile, I said I have options. Here are my choices for transportation to the Meet in Lewisburg, WV. Y'all are welcome to vote. :)
1. Ol' Red. My beater MGBV8 (provided I can patch her up in time).
2. My dad's Chelsea Grey 1963 MGB (March marked 54 years that car has been in the family).
3. 1994 Harley Wide Glide (just to agitate Ted Lathrop - funny he likes old school cars, yet hates Harley engines).
4. 2005 Honda 919 CB900F
5. 2000 Silverado Z71 pick 'em up truck.
Since you asked, I like the order you have things in. ☺
Doesn't your dad have a Miata too? Im in favor of you fixing old red.
Yes, he has an '02 Miata SE. That is his daily driver. I didn't want to borrow for 5 days. Besides, I would just make y'all look really bad on those WV backroads with his Miata. 😁
I haven't asked, but I bet Jim Watson would let me drive his "Taterbug" Brown MGBV8 to WV with a for sale sign. ;)
That would be good. Mark Mason, from WVBCC has expressed interest in it a few times.
If, at all possible, I will be driving the MG that fits me like those "ol blue jeans". Mine.
Piston from Mark La Grou is out for delivery on the Brown truck.. Question is, will it be delivered in time for me to get to the machine shop to get the connecting rod pressed on so I can wrench this weekend?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_moV0aKgbiM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
QuoteQuestion is, will it be delivered in time for me to get to the machine shop to get the connecting rod pressed on so I can wrench this weekend?
Inquiring minds need an update....you've got 2 weeks left.
It will be a close call.
I see Dan Masters hasn't signed up. Maybe I will drive his car. ;)
I will be at my 20th V8 Meet even if I have ride my Harley!
Hey Carl - what's the latest? Piston came in? Right one?
No. Piston came after the machine shop closed.
Then I broke my toe.
OUCH!! Not much you can do about tue toe but tape it to avoid movement from what I understand. Right foot I hope?
Left pinky toe. Bent out at a 45 degree angle.
I did that one time. At Myrtle Beach. Dislocated it I think, but there is nothing you can do. Tape the toes together maybe.
I broke the other one many years ago, racing Robin to the bathroom when we took a movie break. Turned the corner & nearly ripped it clean off. It lacked less than a half a mm being broken clean in two. They completely immobolized it. with a special brace. If it moved & didn't heal, then it was going to be surgery & screws.
This one is doing much better. Taped it up. I felt it pop a few times when I accidently put weight on it. Yesterday, the pop really hurt. Today, it looks like I may have popped the joint back into place. No more 45 degree angle. Guess I'll skip the doctor appt & take my piston to the machine shop.
QuoteGuess I'll skip the doctor appt & take my piston to the machine shop..
That's what I like about Carl - always got his priorities right!
Sadly, Graham, most of my life the opposite has been the norm.
In this case, it was the correct play! My toe is much improved (with just my own first aid) & I now have the new piston on the original connecting rod.
Machinist swapped the piston on the connecting rod & cleaned the carbon from the ring lands for $10 cash. Sold!
Today is my mom's Birthday so may not get much done.
Here's my old "slipper" piston next to the full skirt OEM piston sent by Mark LaGrou. ;)
Buick215hicompOEMcastpiston.jpg
Is that a 'reverse' slipper?
Jim
Piston is in. Oil pan is back on.
Carl,
Good to hear! Hope all is now back to normal.
Did you have to raise up the engine to get the pan off? Need to change a leaking gasket and want to know if the pan will slide out between the xmember, or if I have remove motor mounts and jack it up.
Good News See you in Wytheville for ride to Lewisburg.
Doubt I make the Wytheville to Lewisburg Run, Kelly. Study Ken Hiebert's proposals.
I am still staring at a short block, Mike. My car has the stock RB crossmember, so there was plenty of room to remove the oil pan without jacking up the engine.
Final update.
Due to time constraints & a well worn engine, I went with Jim Blackwood's suggestion. Down & dirty, fairly quick & easy. Sourced a used OEM standard bore 11:1 piston. Reused the rings that were well seated to the bore & the same rod bearings. New Fel-Pro head gaskets seem to have cured the ridiculously excessive blowby.
I did get the the engine buttoned back up & fired about 30 minutes before pizza time in Lewisburg. I finally arrived at 11pm that evening. No pizza for me.
The next few days confirmed that I did a decent jog putting it all back together, as the West Virginia roads put it to the test with many blasts thru the curves at 5500rpm. :)
This is a very interesting story. I know that your engine has had blow-by problems for many years and now you have found that the piston replacement cured the problem. As I recall the blow-by problem was hard to diagnose because there was no obvious oil smoke from the exhaust. So, did you run a compression or leak down test to try to find the problem? If so, I assume nothing was found, presumably because when the piston was not under load it probably was centered properly in the cylinder.
Was there an obvious cause for the piston failure other than a possible manufacturing defect? I do recall that early Ford 2.3 engines suffered piston skirt failure due to inadequate piston lubrication that was solved by putting an oil squirt hole in the rod. But I have heard of no such problems with the Rover/BOP family of engines.
Anyway, it is great to hear that your repair worked well and I am impressed that the engine suffered no long-term damage.
Hi Larry,
The blowby wasn't the piston. It was caused by the bottom row of head bolts canting the heads & leaking compression into the lifter valley. See this thread for the evidence.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,59020
I doubt the piston had a defect. It is a cast piston that has endured way too much time living at 6000-7000rpm. Fingers crossed the rest hold up until I can get another engine built.
Piston with the destroyed skirt is on the far right (#7).
(http://forum.britishv8.org/file.php?6,file=18752,in_body_attachment=1)
Makes sense that the blow-by was the classic head bolt problem.
So, what do you plan for the eventual new engine? I assume it will be a major improvement over the old...
Yes. I've been wondering the same thing!
Not major & nothing new or even a lot more. I love these little engines.
Strongly leaning toward a Rover 3.9 with new sleeves, a 4.2 crank, & Buick 300 heads. I already have two 3.9 blocks, the 4.2 crank, the 300 heads, a full D&D bellhousing, an Edelbrock intake, & a NASCAR Holley 390 double pumper with mechanical secondaries & 4 corner idle screws. I would be able to reuse my headers, engine mounts, mini starter, & flywheel.
Depending on the bore, displacement about 4.35L. I would be happy with just 225rwhp or so.
Quote (Was there an obvious cause for the piston failure other than a possible manufacturing defect? I do recall that early Ford 2.3 engines suffered piston skirt failure due to inadequate piston lubrication that was solved by putting an oil squirt hole in the rod. But I have heard of no such problems with the Rover/BOP family of engines.)
Larry brings up a good point.
Some of the Rover/BOP replacement rod bearings do not have the notches cut out for the rod squirter holes.
Back when I built my 10.4 to 1 compression motor, I noticed that the bearings were not notched and thought that is was kind of odd. Thinking that it was simply a matter of an updated part, I installed them as is.
Then 19,000 miles latter when I decided to supercharged engine, I tore it down and found excessive scuffing on all 8 pistons and cylinder walls. Due to the excessive scoring on the pistons/cylinder walls with fairly low mileage, I determined that the squirter holes do indeed need to be functional in order for the piston/cylinder wall to receive proper lubrication.
When building the supercharged engine with cast 8.6 to 1 pistons, I notched the ends of rod bearings with a Dremmel (spelling) tool. I ran the 8.6 pistons for a few years, before I decided to tear it down again and switch to forged pistons so that I could run more boost safely.
When I tore it down to install the forged pistons, there was no piston/cylinder wall scoring found when using the modified/notched rod bearings. Needless to say I notched the rod bearings when building the forged piston motor and will continue to do so on any Rover/BOP rod bearing that isn't already notched!
Bill
Hey Carl! At least you had ONE piston that wasn't leaking blowby into the lifter valley!
Jim
I was under the gun to get it back together in time for the V8 Meet. I really don't remember a notch in the rod bearing for the oil hole.
I am just tickled that it held together with the abuse I subjected it to in West Virginia! :)
Glad you were able to get it back together Carl! Regarding the oil spray hole in the bearings, it's something to check for on your next build.
For those who don't know the original rod bearings had notches that allowed oil to be sprayed up on the piston, cylinder wall and wrist pin, via a notch in the rod/cap. This lubes the piston/related parts and just as importantly cools the bottom of the piston with oil spray.
Some of the replacement rod bearings do not have the notch which effectively closes off the lube port in the rod. Notching the replacement bearings is fairly simple to do using a dremmel tool though. The main thing is to go slow and slightly bevel the edge of the notch so that there are no rough edges on the bearing surface.
Bill
Also sprays oil on the cam lobes.
Jim
https://www.redbubble.com/people/aselocq/works/26850927-detroit-pistons-logo?grid_pos=2&p=pencil-skirt&rbs=ffb5a468-7925-48de-bfde-ab106c9f977e&ref=shop_grid
😊 Every now and then you come up with a good one Dan!