Hi, Long time since I posted, I am starting work on my Alpine. You folks could help me out! The shop that is building my rearend is trying to talk me into a Chevy V8...
Thoughts/Opinions welcome.. I would prefer a 302 stroker but I am open...
Thanks!
JohnS
Which flavor of Chevy V8 do they recommend?
In my personal opinion the old, familiar, small block Chevy engine has no business in any little British sports car. Too heavy, and physically too large. (Also, not esoteric enough for the bigger British sporty cars.) Leave those engines to the muscle car and old school hot rod crowds.
Some of the LS variants are exciting, but they'll be difficult to install in an Alpine.
Small block Ford is a good choice. I'd prefer it unstroked and with a very lightweight flywheel.
He was talking LS.. Says it's cheap/more HP/smaller than the Ford.. I'm leaning heavily to the 302 with a stroker kit. I'd like to top 300Hp.
The LS will be the best choice if it will fit. Hands down there is no cheaper, easier way to make power, and it is smooth and reliable. But will it fit? And what about the headers?
For an Alpine, the SBF is the accepted standard of course. Can't really go wrong there.
BTW Curtis, isn't the SBC physically a bit smaller than the SBF?
Jim
Go with the Ford small block as it will be easier to fit.
Another reason to stay with the Ford small block is that if you ever have to sell the car it will be an easier sell with the Ford engine.
An Alpine with a Ford drivetrain is more desirable as it is much closer to the Tiger than an Alpine with a GM drive train.
Tigers are becoming very pricey so I would try and keep the car as close to a Tiger if I could.
Cheers
Byron
Jim asked: "isn't the SBC physically a bit smaller than the SBF?" I concede I don't know the measurements, but I perceive SBC as significantly longer front-to-back due to its distributor position. Putting an SBC where this SBF is would probably require rethinking the hood latch and nearby sheetmetal.
(http://www.britishv8.org/Other/KenCorbin/KenCorbin-B.jpg)
Old style SBC is longer, wider, taller and heavier than SBF. LS is about same weight and size as SBF. You'd think it would be lighter with aluminum block.
SBC in Alpine: http://alpinerestoration.blogspot.com/
LS in Alpine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJWl9UJfBgs
The dimension info on the web is all over the place so the only way to really tell is to do an actual measurement. Most measurements I saw on a search included the exhaust manifolds on width, the air cleaner on height, and the water pump on length. As we know those items add flex to the dimensions so those measurements aren't that much help. Also of course the SBC can be fitted with a crank trigger ignition to solve the issue with the rear distributor.
But I agree that the weight of the SBC is the real issue. The LS, the SBF and the SBB are all better choices for most LBC swaps.
Of course that LS equipped Alpine did look and sound sweet.
Jim
When swapping engines into an Alpine, dimensions are not as important as shape. The engine bay is really convoluted. Unless of course, you are willing to remanufacture the entire engine compartment.
Bill
Thanks for the debate! My guy is talking a LS-3. I found one online that put one in an Alpine.. Pretty bad to the bone..
LS3 is the shortest of the LS variants I believe so good choice if you go LS. From my perspective (which doesn't really matter because it's your car) the choice is simple -- SBF is the nostalgic answer. Probably brings a little bit of easier resale if that's a consideration. LS is the go to choice for most any new swap these days. As noted above, cheap power. But it'll come at a fabrication cost as headers and other conversion bits are not likely to be readily available. If I were doing my MG again, I'd be putting an LS in it.
If you haven't already, do your research on traction. 300 rear wheel HP isn't likely to hook up w/o more work.
Bottom line, nothing "fits" into an Alpine and aftermarket parts are not much help. You either fabricate everything to fit the engine into the car or rebuild the car to fit the engine.
Bill
(http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo17/Orangealpine/IMG_7644_zpsqia36ah4.jpg) (http://s357.photobucket.com/user/Orangealpine/media/IMG_7644_zpsqia36ah4.jpg.html)
2010 Ford Fusion 2.5 Duratec with parts fabricated to fit the engine into the car.
The purpose of my previous post was to drive home the thought that installing almost any engine into an Alpine is not a trivial undertaking. This is especially true with an offbeat (non SBF or Ford 2.8) when done by a pro.
A couple of years ago, I was talking to one of my wife's cousins at a family function. He happens to work at a car fabrication shop in Indy and showed me a magazine which had one of his projects on the cover. Beautiful repowered Ford truck. I showed him my car and asked how much (very approximately) how much it would cost to have the installation done in their shop to their standards. At first look, he said $15,000. Then the price started to go up. After much looking and digesting everything that had to be done, he finally settled on "about $25,000" if I supplied the "big parts".
For comparison, he said they do a lot of SBC into American cars for about $15,000. So a guy that is used to working on American Iron could get in way over his head (cost wise) pretty quickly.
Bill
QuoteLS3 is the shortest of the LS variants
Pretty sure Rob meant the LS4. It is the most compact as it was built for transverse orientation.
If 300hp is the goal, then the LS3 will overshoot that by quite a bit. The LS3 is 376ci rated at a conservative 430hp. It can easily be bumped into the mid 500hp range with a cam change.
Yes, the Alpine would be a challenge. Yet it has been done a few times. Seems both the front suspension and the steering are somewhat problematical, so how about this thought: If cost isn't too great a consideration, how hard would it be to fit a Fast Cars IFS to the body? Expensive yes, but it could sort things out rather nicely I would think. If that's too much money, possibly the MGB front suspension could be adapted. It was used in the Arntz-Butler Cobra and some other cars as well. The main issue would be allowing space for the shock absorbers (upper unequal length control arms).
These are a couple of outside the box ideas but the two cars are of similar size, weight, and configuration so it could be worth considering.
Jim
I have had some experience with both Chevy and Ford swaps. The Ford 260-289-302 is narrower than the
Chevy, and seems to fit better where an inline 4 or 6 once lived - ie, big Healey, TR-6, etc. It is actually lighter than the Healey 6, as well. A major consideration is getting the heat out from under the hood ( bonnet ), especially at low speeds to avoid blown head gaskets, etc. Even with a strong electric fan, hot air can be trapped at low speeds. Some solutions are louvering the hood (bonnet ), opening vents ala the rally Healeys,
and ceramic coating the headers and exhaust. You may also be able to vent heat into the wheel wells by
putting louvers in the inner fender panels. I have seen that done by using the louvers off surplus locker doors, or by having a shop with a set of louver dies press them into the panel, which absolutely requires media blasting beforehand to avoid the risk of tearing the metal. I would recommend having the louver opening
on the inside facing the radiator if tire clearance might be an issue !
The RaceShop started on my Alpine.. I don't have a shop/room/time to build it. I've decided to go all out HP wise.. Not sure how high we will go, but am leaning toward the LS engine, though FORD is the nostalgic choice, almost NOTHING under the car is stock, so makes less sense to force the FORD at the expense of Horse Power. I would prefer speed and weight. We're going to build a Street Legal car capable of racing, at least that's the idea. I'll get some pics if anyone is interested.
John, We are always interested.
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Here is my little Sunbeam leaving the place it was beached for so many years. And the First stages of gutting.... Behind the rear end is in pretty good shape so we'll keep the trunk.. Other than that, there is NOTHING left underneath. I know I'm not a purist here, as you guys are really builders, truth is I don't have a place to do the work, the time, or even the skills to do it right, so I found the best performance shop I could to do the heavy lifting. We're going to build a street legal race car. 600Hp++ probably an Aluminum LS Engine with a 5 Spd, and 4 link rear end. Mustang II steering gears and front end. Black Side pipes, no bumpers and flared Fenders. The Hard top is in pretty fair shape so I will be keeping it. Ferrari Red with a Camel Interior. I will post picks along the way if you folks want...
Sounds like you have a plan.
Please post lots of photos so we can see this project unfold.
What shop is going to do your car?
Cheers
Byron
G&S Custom Fabrication in Athens Alabama. I've known the guy since high school, but wasn't aware of the quality of work he produced until I started looking for someone to redo the Ghost..
Plan right now is to put a 9inch rear end, it's ordered. A Mustang II front and 4 link rear end.. He builds his own. The Engine will be an Aluminum LS with 5 spd manual trans, we are shooting for around 700 Bhp. Here are some pics..
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John, Wow! Full frame. Have you thought about going narrower on rear and tubs inside instead of the huge flares? Do you plan to flare the front and run a standard width Mustang II front suspension?
Why not split the car lengthwise and add 6 inches to the width, like John did about ten years ago? It is easy enough to say, implementation might be a bit difficult.
BTW Jim, do you have any idea what happened to that beauty?
Bill
Bill, I remember reading about it. Most radical jobs do not get finished. There is a Alpine on the SAOCA board using a full width rear with positive offset wheels with more subtle VW Rabbit flares.
Yep the Front will be flared as well. We are using VW fenders (all from Fronts). I'll put a pick up of the Front. The Wheels and Tires as well as the RearEnd are ordered and awaiting delivery. I don't think we are going so far out that it will not be built, Greg builds mostly hot rods and race cars.. The Ghost will be Street Legal but built so it can be raced. For example, we're going with Power Steering so my wife can drive...
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John, Cool! Checkout the electric power steering that our friend Dan on the SAOCA board offers.
http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/electric-power-steering-eps-for-your-alpine.25948/
A few more Pics, I'll think about the Electric Steering, We're working towards a Wifeable, Streetable Race car, so not sure whether the Raceable side would work with an electric Steering... Clean system he came up with though!
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John, A lot of autocrossers use the electric steering. Check out this 510 front spoiler for the race car look:
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I highly recommend power steering of some sort for autocrossing.
Ken
Nice looking front end.. We're talking about something similar for the Ghost...
Mentioning the Ghost..
I'm trying to think of vanity plates...
66GHOST
GHOST
SUNBEAM
NERVOUS
TGRKLLR
TGRHNTR
any ideas?
The electric power steering is continuously adjustable from Pinky steer all the way up to Armstrong (no assist). Or so I've been told, but I have no reason to doubt. Am in the process of installing one now.
Bill
Some recent pics if anyone is interested..
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John, Pretty Wild! Are you going to use floor mount pedals? What front end is that?
Basically a Mustang 2 parts for the Frontend, Wildwood Drilled Disk Brakes. Here are some more pics.. They are going to town on it.. We haven't found an engine yet.. And the Seats will be difficult.. Not much room.
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Rear End 4 link Suspension, Front End, and Body Work.. If anyone is interested.. Still have to find an Engine..
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My Sunbeam Alpine has a bit of what I'd call an aerodynamic problem at really high speeds:) The fender flares might prove even worst. Hope not:)
Lots of talk about the different engine mod's for an Alpine led me to the Ford (Cologne) 60 degree Engines (2.8 & 4.0 V6's). Absolutely no "torch" work! Only time for any welding are the two bottom engine mounts! Tight, YES! But, It fits rather nicely.
I started with the 2.8 V6 Conversion "kit" I purchased back in 2012. Good quality, poor design IMHO, so I started my own!
First was the Headers sticking out the side (I did not like having to reroute the exhaust), so Mine are straight back similar to the Tiger system. Then, the engine mounts hanging off the rear of the crossmember was not to my liking either, so a new design with built in stops for setting the engine in position so there was adequate spacing between the radiator and fan ( I even have enough space to run dual pulleys for Air Conditioning)!
AND John, Your comment about: Quote: "I'll think about the Electric Steering, We're working towards a Wifeable, Streetable Race car, so not sure whether the Raceable side would work with an electric Steering... Clean system he came up with though! " Unquote
Leads me to the fact that the EPS can be worked with the power on or off. Off is normal steering, On is a choice you can select. In other words your wife can make it as easy as she pleases:)
Love them Sunbeams - Keep'em on-the-Road. Best of wishes to you and the Ghost,
DanR
John, Your front spoiler may be too low. When your car is on the ground with the motor in, a good rule is nothing should hang lower than the bottom of the rim. Shocks, oil pans, front spoilers, etc. If you have a tire blowout it could create a lot of damage.
Great point, it is, above the loaded Rim and Rocker Panel, but it is low, I'll have a custom oil pan, all my packeage should be above the low water mark..
I also agree it's a bit blocky to be really fast, but with the BHP we are putting in it, north of 600 I think I'll still have a fast little booger.
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John, Like the Quick Jack bumpers!
Maybe we shall meet up one day me and my V6 , you and your LS ?
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My Uncle Billy (99 years) likes to run'em too!
Love them Sunbeam's Keep'em-on-the-road,
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Thanks I thought the Quick Jacks were a good idea, someone else used on theirs.I hope to meet up with all you folks! I can't wait to dry my little ghost.. I think I know my vanity tag now. It's gotta be GHOST.
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We're still sourcing an LS but it's coming along.
I finally found and Engine. An LS1 5.7 should be pushing 500 BHp at least that's the idea, I can add a Stage3 cam if I need to get up to around 600, we'll start airb this..... I've just ordered a low profile front end for it and a Tremec 5 spd.. I hope to have it on the road by the spring. I'm considering putting in an IPad station for music/nav etc... ideas are always appreciated!!
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I have driven Bill's Alpine with the 2.5 Duratec, and it runs as well as any Alpine engine swap. The Tiger has lots more torque at lower RPM, but in the Alpine...WHO NEEDS IT? Bill drove this car all over the US this summer and stopped by my place, giving me a chance to see his work and how it turned out. Very well and well balanced, which some overlook in an effort to make maximum Horse Power. A lot like trying to put a Harley Twin on a bicycle.
Well I guess the short answer is.. I do.. Or maybe I don't.. No one really needs any of these cars.
The little bugger beat my buttocks 40 years ago when I had my E-type.. I always wondered what it had under it's hood. Ford Small Block 289 and Mustang Automatic Transmission and Mustang Rear End. It was a rocket. This is the car that stomped me flat. So when I happened across it, I decided to build something special.
Why the LS..?
It's cheap HP and performance, easy to work on with regular tools, it's in 1000s of cars out there, aftermarket is full of fancy upgrades, chips etc.
It's compact, and I should get about 20 mpg.
The Car is built to Autocross and be what I call "Streetable".
It'll have power steering and removable cores for the side pipes that are going on it. The underneath was so far gone, that I had nothing to do but gut the inside. So if I'm going to spend the money to have a Race Shop build a custom frame I'm going to stuff a clean high performance engine in.
This is NOT your normal Alpine, it only has the body of one.
Resale I feel will be better with something unusual in it. If/When I sell it to a CONSENTING ADULT ONLY.
In this case, it's not putting a Harley Engine on a Bicycle, it's keeping the Bicycle Seat and building a frame for it that one hangs a Harley on.. If I hadn't had to cut the frame out, I would not have the foundation for the engine.
and maybe lastly
Because I wanted it.
Cheers...
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So it's begging it's final stages. Long time since the start! I think it'll be worth it..
John, Good to see you're still at it!
Anyone know where I can buy Glass for my 66' We're one the home stretch....
We are REALLY on the home stretch this year.. Does anyone have any source for a front Windshield?
I hope to have it finished this fall...
Ran the engine and ate a valve... ugh... Had to pull engine and replaced with an LS 6.0... The guy doing the work has decided that it needs to be show worthy so the entire car has been taken down, polished, painted and rebuilt.. It's only money, after all.. I'll try to get some pics up....
John, Was wondering how you were doing! Moss has the windshield.
https://mossmotors.com/009-183-clear-windshield-glass-sunbeam-alpine-3-5-tiger
Thank you! Got one.. Ordered my Rag top. Engine is almost ready to install...I'll try and post some pics soon.
LS Engine almost ready to install..
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Last Years rebuilt Front end... It's being prepped for painting..
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Some recent Pics
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It's been a long expensive project ! Marshall Collins (Finishing, Electrical,Engjne and fine tuning) in Ozark Alabama and Greg Blaydes (Custom Racing frame suspension and drive train) in Athens Alabama have done 99% of the heavy lifting!
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I got to drive it a short distance a few weeks ago, it's a bit scary! It'll be getting some upgraded carbon fiber wheels... hopefully I'll bring it home next weekend..
It was eye watering performance and expense!
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Nice looking car! Enjoy it!!!
John, Wild custom!
Got her home! After an 8 year build.
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Need some advise for Custom tag...
This is what I'm leaning towards...
NERVOU5
Turns out it's a 67' not a 66'
SUNRUNR came to mind.
MXMASTR just struck me as well
Have fun.
Nice car!