I am new to this site but am a long time car builder in the street rod field. After finishing my wife's 65 Mustang this month I will start on my Sunbeam. My cars have won the Dallas Autorama in their class and been featured in major publications. That is not a brag but to let you know my history and abilities. I am 70, retired, have my own shop and do all my own work except engine machine work and custom upholstery...I am blessed. The problem is I have always liked sports cars but never got serious about building one, until now. The 67 Series V I have owned for 30 years and rebuilt the 1725 20 years ago...but never fired it! I turn it over once a year though. After reading everything I can find on the British Rootes engine I purchased an 85 Mustang 2.3 and a Tremec T5 trans. for a swap. Has anyone heard of this change? What problems will I face other than the obvious? The 2.3 appears to be taller and maybe a little longer but I managed to shoehorn a big block Ford into a 32 Deuce so maybe I can make it fit!? Any info on this or similar swaps will be greatly appreciated. Any help I can give to this site I will gladly do. My training is in electronics (degree and 20 years repairing home entertainment equipment), building cars (frame up) for 40 years, small engine specialist schools plus 15 years as a gunsmith (still do some). I learned long ago others who have done what I want to do can be of great help avoiding problems. I am fairly knowledgeable on engines, body work, painting, fabrication and wiring so if anyone has a question simply e-mail me. Thanks for your time.
Welcome to BritishV8, Charlie!
I'm curious about why you haven't fired up and driven your car with the Sunbeam engine. I think that might be a smart place to start for several reasons. Most fundamentally, you'll better know what you like and don't like about the car besides its styling. I'm guessing you're planning on a turbo for the 2.3, right? Otherwise, a 2.3 isn't really THAT big a performance upgrade. From Wikipedia, 85 Mustang made 86hp w/o turbo or 205hp with. Either might be perfect for what you want, but driving the Sunbeam might help you be sure. When you sell the Sunbeam engine, you'll be able to say "It's been run in. It runs great. Here, you can hear it run!" versus "it might run".
Hey Charlie, The Alpine steering in front of the firewall is the problem with most engine swaps in the Alpine. The old 2.8 Ford V6 is popular and there is a nice kit from Jose on the SOACA board. The 2.3 is one of my favorite 4's. Speedway Motors has a lot of hopup stuff for it. It is tall and long though. I just found out a lot of Tiger guys are switching to 90-95 Mazda Miata racks. You can do power with Toyota MR2 electric power steering pump or depower the rack for manual steering. Keith of Flying Miata and this board has an excellent article on that mod. That would allow you to move the engine back and lower. Just make sure the oil pan is no lower than the front crossmember. You will need the S10 tailshaft housing on the T5 to put the shifter forward to compensate for the rearward motor.
Thanks Curtis and Jim for your response. Having built many RODS/CUSTOMS for customers and several for myself I started the Sunbeam project then got side-tracked when a guy with "lots" of $$ built a 4 bay shop for me in my backyard! I built exclusively for him for years as he paid me well. Lets see, build the Sunbeam or build for a guy who pays for EVERYTHING!? Ten years ago I retired to the country where I built a private gun range for testing guns (I worked for a police dept.), finished the 65 Mustang for the wife, had a mild stroke (TIA), built an energy efficient house, gunsmith shop, RV area with 3 hookups, dug a wine cellar (I make wine), planted a small vineyard/orchard and I write a column for a newspaper. Now at 70 if I live long enough I WILL FINISH THE SUNBEAM! The 2.3 can easily make 150 HP which is 50 more than the 1725 Rootes with easier to find parts. I am a Ford guy with much experience building 260 thru 351 V8's and some with the 2.3 we had in a Tempo. I have two Sunbeams and will put the factory engine in the one I sell after I finish mine. I do not have lots of $$ as I began life in the Dallas projects, served on 3 carriers and my wife of 48 years is an orphan...but we do own everything including our farm/wildlife management 20 acres. Money IS a consideration while tools, ability and a shop are covered. This site looks like the place to find info and "stuff" so I will contribute to pay my way. Curtis please send me an e-mail to tell how I do that but don't expect a lot of money...just some! Thanks again guys and I will keep in touch with pix and info as I progress.
Charlie, I have complete confidence you'll make it happen.
Please take lots of photos along the way! BritishV8 is built around "How It Was Done" articles - but we don't have enough Alpine HIWD stories yet. Also, we'd enjoy following a <a href="http://forum.britishv8.org/list.php?13">
Project Journal</a>.
Information about contributing to the operating fund can always be found under the "Contacts" pull-down menu at the top of the page, but here's a direct link: http://www.britishv8.org/Contributions.htm - (Snail mail address appears below the PayPal stuff.) Thank you!
Okay, if I fire the engine to be sure it runs what is a '67 1725 worth...w/trans and wo/trans? I may sell it and keep the other body for spares. My 2.3 has a C4 behind it and I may keep it to keep the wife happy...she hates shifting! My 32 rumble seat coupe had a C4 and worked fine for thousands of miles behind a modified 289 using a Ford power steering cooler as a trans cooler. No radiator work needed just place it in a cool area with good airflow. I would post pix of my work but don't have any "sporty-cars", just street rods and customs. I guess I could post a few BEFORE pix of the Beam. A buddy has an MG with a 302 he just finished, maybe I can get him on this site. Curtis, "Check is in the mail"...just as soon as I can squeeze it out of the wife!
Curtis, small world...my buddy with the MG V8 has been on this site for years! We graduated high school together and served on the Independence CVA-62 in 63/64. He lives in Dallas and I am 150 miles away in Rising Star, Texas. He said you guys are a lot of help and he has been to a couple of gatherings...rides. What do you call your get-to-gathers? In the Street Rod world they are Rod Runs...which always sounded like a personal problem! Looking forward to being a Sporty-Car guy.
Charley, Check on the SAOCA forum for price/value of stock Sunbeam motor.
Hey Guys, I'm the V8 buddy in Dallas and CJ is right, there's no better group of car guys than what is here on this site.
Paul
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I just wanted to add something about the T5 swap with the S10 tailshaft housing. I plan on doing the same swap into my 65 Alpine (though I'm using a 302) and the Chevrolet speedo gear will not work with the speedo cable needed for the Sunbeam, unless there's an adaptor out now that I haven't heard of? But last I checked, Modern Drivline in Idaho specializes in setting up the S10 tailhousings with the correct gear. The gears have a different inside diameter, and some people have been able to make a shim to get them to work, but that's nothing I wanted to mess with, haha. You might have better luck than me? Anywho, just figured I'd throw that out there just in case. Hope the build goes well!
-Kyle
I realize most of you guys want to keep the stock speedometer and I tried that on more than one car, even to the point of sending my tach and speedometer to England to be modified. What a fiasco that was! In the end, as much as I like the look of the original gauges, I gave up and went with GPS. No matter what size tires, no matter what gears I switch to, it's not effected. Still, I like original gauges.
Paul
Paul, I gave up on electronics...GPS or otherwise and will use mechanical/electric stuff in the Beam. Pulling the 1725 next week and will trial-fit the 2.3 with the C3. I drove the 65 Mustang to south Texas (653 miles round trip) and it runs fine...except when hot. 92 degrees there and vapor lock appeared due to alcohol fortified gas!? Ordered a heat shield for the Stang to go under the carb. Problems never end. A cat killed all my chickens, I had to put down Uzi due to rattler bite, both toilets keep running over and now I start on the Sunbeam. Any advice for an old friend from high school and the Navy?
Dig a hole for an out-house and get another rooster :-) But if you just get the rooster I wouldn't expect many eggs.
I've run my course with aftermarket electronic gauges too; with all the t-buckets we built we never got one to work right, and sometimes not at all, but speedometer cables on a bucket just look tacky. Mechanicals have their limitations as well if you decide to change tires or gears, which a number of us seem to be prone to do, nor is a driven gear available with the exact teeth you need. After going to Speed Hut GPS gauges on a number of cars we haven't had one problem. Admittedly they don't have the stock appearance, but as they are custom designed by the buyer, they can be made to look pretty close. Expensive...yes...but for quality and accuracy I'm glad I switched from the gauges I had. Yes I have a friend, I won't name here because of a conflict of interest, who is a dealer. No, I don't work for him, nor recommend their products, anybody that's interested, check them out for yourself. Sorry CJ, I liked Uzi a lot better than rattle snakes, maybe we've been hunting the wrong thing in your backyard.
Paul
CJ, keep us posted on how the Sunbeam is coming along! See ya' Friday.
Paul
I kept my Stock Alpine Gauges... Simple that a way!
Had Tom Hayden TomH on the SAOCA convert the Tach from 4 to 6cyl..He did a great job.
Sent my speed-o-meter to a place in Texas (Texas Industrial ?) with measurements for length to fit the gear end/drive for the '97 T5, they too did a great job of making things work.
P.S. Paul do you suspect CJ didn't know about the Rooster and the eggs:)
After a couple of years of major life-changes I'M BACK! I moved from Rising Star Texas to Abilene Texas, and had to relocate a shop and build a new one at my new (to us) house in town. I am also a retired gunsmith and had to move my gun stuff also. During the move-rebuild-remodel, I was ripped-off for about $11,000.00! YEP, all spare funds for the sportscar went south with contractors. The shop got built, but I had to finish much of the build, plus finish the house remodel. I am 75 and still building cars/guns but just for me now. I was getting info from another sportscar site but seem to have ticked-off one of the car builders there. Rather than stay, I came back here. You guys have lots of ideas that relate to my previous car building as a Street Rod builder. The gentleman I got sideways with is a car builder also, and appears to be a good one. However, when I mentioned my cars winning shows, being featured in several magazines and even a center spread/cover car, he thought I was bragging too much. OH, a millionaire built me a 4-bay heated and air conditioned shop in my back yard so I could build just for him...which I did. I totally understand how that could seem like bragging, but I was simply trying to show I had a pretty good understanding of this car building thing. Anyone watching the TV show Gas Monkey knows about Richard Rawlings the host. The guy who taught me much of what I know built cars for that show. I also graduated form Elkins Institute in Dallas (where Talk Radio Host Rush Limbaugh went), with a degree in electronics, so I wire my own cars from scratch. When one has been taught by the very best, took the time to learn the subject well, has proven they have at least some ability...it should not be considered bragging but simply stating facts. I hope I am welcome here because I built Rods not sportscars, and at 75 I am still learning and need help with lots of British stuff. Tried to post pic...didn't work.
We'll accept you Charlie, you don't have to keep telling us how good you are (or how fortunate might be as accurate). Good people here. Doesn't hurt to know some of your history but you don't have to get it all out in one shot. Mostly I think we like pictures. We'd love to see what you are working on.
Jim
I'll try again. NOPE, did not work. Can someone explain how I can attach a photo, or several?
OK, look to the bottom of the text entry box on the left and you should see blue letters saying, "Attach a Photo". If you went through that and your file would not transfer it's probably because it doesn't meet the file limitations either in file size or pixels (I think it'll tell you this in the error message but I'm not sure). I've found that when shooting photos for upload to this site it's best to set your camera to the file size for e-mails. That almost always works. Some people use another program to resize their photos to meet the limitations. I've done that too sometimes but find the email setting to be plenty good enough most of the time.
HTH
Jim
Jim, I tried your suggestion before I mentioned it in a post. But I'll try again. It looks like my pics are over the 600KB. Anyway, maybe in the future after I get the Sunbeam built in a year or two. It is a total take-down to bare metal then modify what is needed to mount my stuff, then build back up. What normally would be called a "frame-off" rebuild, but as you know...Beams have no frame. Thanks for your information though. It caused me to look for the problem in the correct place, and the RED info about 600KB showed up.
Welcome back Charlie, People who get all mad about other people stating what they have done or had in their life. Are just jealous, And 99% of the time have many other issues. To me you are a lucky guy, Anyways when you figure out the pic thing I would love to see some pics of your car and ones you have built. Good luck with the sunbeam.
Bill G
Yes, that 600kb limit is usually the problem. If you have microsoft office there is a program in there that lets you resize photos, I don't remember what it is. But you should be able to find it.
Anyway congratulations on your successes. It's seldom easy for anyone and you have to be thankful for what has worked in your life. We hold up to acclaim those who succeed greatly but the reality is that the stars must align for those stories to exist. For the vast majority there are steps missing on the ladder to success and usually too many to bridge. So rather that judge oneself by others' achievements it's more profitable to consider the hurdles actually overcome. Everyone has them, how they are dealt with is the true measure of success, and nobody else is in any position to measure it. Gratitude for the generosity of others is seldom misplaced, nor is generosity in one's self. So there's my comment on that, I hope it doesn't offend.
Jim
Jim, you wouldn't happen to know my old English teacher, Mr. Lloyd would you? I write for a newspaper and try to keep my prepositions away from the end of a sentence, all due to that man. Your sentence structure and flow of wording reminds me of him. Anyway, I appreciate the good words on this site and the other one was good also...I just stepped on some toes when it appeared I was bragging. Forgive me if sometimes I repeat myself, as I had a stroke a few years ago and forget if I told something on a particular site. Working with sportscar sites, engineering sites, writing an on-line answer board for 6 cylinder Mustangs, writing a newspaper column, setting up my personal gunsmith shop, and building my Sunbeam...I forget which group knows my background. THANKS for the help with the pictures. I'll try later to post some if I figure out how. My friend Paul Speaks has been on here for years and he turned me on to you guys. A nice guy and long-time friend.
A good shortcut for resizing pics is to email the pic to yourself. When you attach, the email program asks what size. Pick the one under 600.
Heck of a good tip Dan, thanks. I'd never have thought of that one.
Charlie, your buddy Paul is admired and respected on this site. If you approach his standards I can't see you having any problems here. And we are eager to see what you're doing there.
Jim
Jim, at the risk of bragging, I have been building cars for over 50 years. My 289 powered 32 Ford coupe won its class at the Dallas ISCA show and was featured on the cover of Performance CARS magazine and centerfold story in 1976. Yes, I am old. Dean Spruell the photographer, was shocked I did all work except upholstery. It was also a color article in Street Rodder magazine. I had exceptional teachers who have won national acclaim and international awards. The guy who taught me body/paint did work for the Gas Monkey TV show and Richard Rawlings. His name is Raymond Chovanetz and I have known him since the late 50's. My friend Jimmy K Smith is now in Oklahoma owning the Hot Rod Shop in Sand Springs, where they built a famous Chevy pickup, and his personal 34 tudor was featured in Street Rodder magazine. My present 65 Mustang has won several show awards, not because it is exceptional but it is a "different" six cylinder. Back in the late 80's a millionaire built me a fully equipped 4-bay shop in my backyard so I could build just for him. I did for several years. His 1940 Nash 2 door, chopped 3", no chrome, custom frenched lights, super interior, big inch Ford V8, auto, Air, Cruise, tilt, and more, won 1st in class, best interior and 2nd Peoples Choice at the Ft. Worth show. Now I work on my own 1967 Sunbeam Alpine, and hope I can still do good work. Time will tell...and Paul is a long-time friend also. He once left his T-Bucket at my farm while he went back to Dallas. I drove that fun car for a couple of weeks and it reminded me why I never built one. After a few miles with the Chevy exhaust dumping right next to the driver, you can't hear anything below a grenade detonation. OKAY, that is not intended as bragging, but I understand how it could seem that way. I come from the Dallas housing projects and could not afford to buy a Hot Rod. Thank God I had experts to teach me how to build one.
518_100_0474.jpg For some reason this Ferrari shot of a car my friend built attached.
Okay Jim, now that everyone knows how wonderful I am I will stop repeating myself. I still can't get pictures to post...except the Ferrari my friend Raymond built. I know I mentioned I could not get pictures to post...so I guess I am still repeating myself. Sorry guys, this seems like one of those dreams that keeps repeating. My 9 year old grandson probably knows how to solve my problem, so I'll ask him Monday.
The 2.8 V6 FORD is a perfect conversion for the Sunbeam Alpine. Saw lots of the Tigers in my early years when they first hit the USA Highways.
Became very familiar with the First Series I while stationed in Bermuda 1959-61. Fell in love with them.
Own 6 at present. Started my first V6 conversion back in 2007. Bought a jose kit following the crowd, soon learned I wanted to change out some of the design being utilized. First off was the way the headers stuck out the side of the Alpine and ran along the bottom of the quarter panel. Prefect for DragRacing, but not ideal for street! Took me three years to design and find a fabricator to build "Straightbacks" similar to the TIGER Exhaust system.....After completion of that project, I decided to build components to make the conversion a bit "better"... I offer to the Alpine Community an option to purchase any number of items to make their conversion an easy and positively enjoyable way to modernize their Alpine.
Even offer an Electrical Power Steering (EPS) for those wanting the best in driving experiences:)
Rear Disc Brakes for the Sunbeam now! Have them installed on my Blue Boy V6. Testing the modified E-Brake cable as the final step.
Tiger@Dan at Gmail.com ask for PIC's if interested
Keep'em-on-the-Road
2.8V6StraightBackHeadersbyDanR20180301_142550.jpg
2.8V6StraightBackHeadersbyDanR20180301_145545.jpg
2.8V6StraightbackHeadersbyDanR20191110_140230.jpg
I just removed the Alpine rear axle and checked the ratio. It is supposed to be 3.89-1 but I got 2.2-1. I marked the 3rd member input and the drum on one side, then rotated the drum one turn. The input moved 2.2 turns. Did Alpine make a 2.2 to 1 axle? With an A4LD overdrive and lockup converter, plus 14" tires, I'll be doing 150 mph at 3,000 rpm! Just a guess but probably close. Do the Brits figure ratios different? Has math changed since I checked an axle 20 years ago? HELP!
Did both brake drums turn? I seem to recall that both axles must turn together to keep the spider gears from skewing the outcome.
If it's a stock diff, ie not an lsd, while one wheel rotates forwards, the other wheel will rotate backwards.
If it's an lsd, both wheels will turn forwards.
You have a 4.22.
Other ratios available, 3.70 or 3.89.
If you ever have the chance to make the engine swap, it would pull a 3.70 quite happily.
Ivor
Ivor, please explain how 2.2 turns of the input driveshaft (propeller) with one full turn of the wheel drum equals 4.22 ratio. Obviously I am missing something in the math mechanics. My owners manual says I have a 3.89 axle with the factory 1725 engine and 4-speed standard transmission. That was what I used to determine my 14" wheel/tire size and automatic overdrive combination. In Texas 75 MPH is our highway speed, and this combo puts the engine I built, a Ford 2.3 Mustang 4-cylinder, right in the sweet-spot for torque to give maximum economy on trips. Now with a 2.20 axle, I'll be doing 131 MPH at 3,000 RPM but under 1800 at 75. I MUST be missing something because I don't find anything near a 2.20 axle for the Sunbeam Alpine. Turning the input or the drum gives me the same 2.20 number. I have found stamped numbers on the housing but they do not give me any indication as to the axle ratio. My only problem with this axle is my getting rear-ended while entering freeway traffic. My acceleration time from zero to 60 mph could be measured with a calendar.
I tried to attach pix but would not work. IMG_ file.
Charly, Ivor is correct on available ratios. If your car originally had a overdrive transmission it should be 4.22. If standard 4 speed it should be 3.89. The 3.70 was used in other Sunbeam and Hillman models. This may help you figure it out:
https://shiftsst.com/blog/post/how-to-determine-the-rear-axle-ratio.html
Charlie, when you rotate one wheel, with a non-lsd half the motion is lost in the spiders. Your actual rotation will be 2.11 which is hard to measure.
Acceleration measured with a calendar hoho yes indeed.
I recall when I first had my TR6 with its huge tyres and 3.45 diff the acceleration was glacial, I went to a 3.7 then a 4.11. Choice of rear end transforms the car.
Ivor
Ivor, way back many years ago a friend had an early Rolls Royce with righthand steering. I never got use to riding what we call in the US "Shotgun" in the wrong seat. Thankfully both my Alpines were US delivery factory made lefthand drive. If I can figure out how, I will post build pictures.