I was thinking this could be a thread where racing tips, tricks and evaluations could be shared. Most of us at this level are going to some level of amateur and are going to have a lot of holes in our knowledge base. It will also provide a place to post video links to impressive racing feats that you've seen online.
If you have additional ideas or critiques, feel free to post away.
In my opinion this is a short list the most basic principles -
1 - Stay as calm as possible.
There's going to be a massive adrenaline dump ( competition heart rate for Cup drivers is ~150 bpm for +4 hours, F1 can be north of 170, amateur should certainly expect +120bpm especially if he's green ) and the only way to get used to dealing with that is ... by dealing with that. Hopefully, by being aware of what your body is doing you won't lose your mind quite so easily.
2 - Analyze everything.
Racing is a *decision making* process. Those who make *good* decisions will tend to outperform those who are simply aggressive. Aggression has a purpose, a time and a place but if it doesn't serve your ANALYSIS you're probably wasting time and damaging equipment for no good reason. I have walled people ... and I have refrained from walling people because it was the last lap, I was in the lead and I could dispose of the problem lap car *while retaining the lead*. Best revenge is the trophy, destroying their car is far and away the second choice. And besides, depending on the series, totaling a competitor out might get you suspended.
3 - Be smooth
Smooveness is very important. *ROLL* into the throttle when coming up on the straight. Try not to jump on the brake pedal during corner entry. Keep steering inputs as minimal as possible. Concentrating on smoothness will help with #1. Work on doing things smoothly THEN work on doing things quickly.
4 - Check instruments at least once per lap
Same place, every lap, usually on the long straight ( circle track would be on the back stretch, on the front you need to check the flag stand every lap ). You can check them more often but don't check them less often. It can be the difference between a short day at the races and a short day at the races PLUS an engine fire and a rod out the side of the block. The habit is key.
5 - Reserve grip / speed is a thing
IF you are behind a slower car THEN you are likely taking the corner at LESS than your max side loading. How can you redeploy this additional cornering capacity to your advantage? Can you run a wider line or a later apex? Do you actually need to back up from the car in front in order to get your max corner entry and apex speeds so you can use that to slingshot him on the straight?
6 - Maintain concentration
Some drivers, especially in long races, have real problems with zoning out. This was actually a problem Dario had and was why I expected him to fail at NASCAR. If you can't keep your eyes open for a 200 lap IndyCar race ... how the hell are you going to stay awake for the Coca-Cola 600 ( which as recently as 2005 went +5 hrs )?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJTjRs-rI
7 - Be aware of the track, do NOT target fixate
This is not same thing as #6 although the results can be similar. Be aware of your rear view mirror, do NOT watch it. Be aware of the car in front of you, do NOT get hypnotized by his bumper. Try to be peripherally conscious of what is happening at the corner exit while you're still in the corner entrance. Many accidents can be avoided and many passing opportunities can be exploited if you make a point of trying to be aware of what's happening further ahead of you.
8 - Racing is Dangerous, a threat to life and limb
This is NOT a joke. As part of your pre-race entry you will sign a release. This release will inform you of the above, IT IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION. Do you need to tell the woman in your life otherwise to get her to leave you alone? Fine. Do NOT lie to me or any other racer about how 'safe' it is. I've watched people get seriously burned, I was flagging the corner for the wreck that got the Elkhart Grand Prix shut down, in 2009 a nine year old boy lost all of his fingers at Palm Beach International in a go-kart, I was airlifted into Halifax Medical Center in 1998. Death and dismemberment happen at all levels of racing. You are not immortal or impervious.
Oh yeah, in caution situations it's a good idea to OFFSET one lane from the car in front of you. I've never seen a requirement for the field to single file, one lane, you just aren't allowed to PASS. That way even if the guy behind you goes space cadet and rear ends you, at least you're not getting submarined under the car in front of you. Offsetting also gives you MUCH better forward visibility so you can see the accordion coming and gives the guy behind you an extra ~20' of reaction time he wouldn't normally have.
Think of the "cars in a line" that seems to form every time the pace car comes out as the reflexive, unthinking and NON-RACING default habit that most people have. You don't want to have that habit.
Cool idea for a thread. Good first post.
re: #4, I'd suggest a counterpoint. "Don't overload the driver with data." I'm going to risk ruffling feathers by saying I think most racecars have too many instruments. Way too many. Especially for sprint races. Yes, it's good to know if your oil pressure is dropping each lap. Yes, having a big red idiot light for low oil pressure is a good idea. Maybe a glance at the tach can give a driver a good indication whether the latest technique adjustment worked or didn't. After that, instruments are a distraction. You'd be wise to put tape over them. If you see something you don't like on a gauge, you'll probably drive like crap for a lap or two while you fret about it. Fuel pressure gauges, voltage gauges, even coolant temp gauges... they might be useful for test and practice sessions, but a data acquisition system would be so very much better.
1979 French Grand Prix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI_DpLnLyIM&t=21m20s
Here, we have Rene Arnoux providing another example of #6 while Gilles Villeneuve shows an excellent example of the proper deployment of aggression and the benefit of being willing and prepared to endure contact.
If you watch from the beginning, Gilles had gotten a good start and jumped the front row ( who were dealing with turbo lag for their launches ) into first place. Gilles then stretched out the lead quite considerably ( it appears at one point that his lead over Arnoux must be the entire front stretch ) until beyond the halfway point of the race. at this point the Ferrari tires started to go off ( his team mate Scheckter actually pitted for tires after falling to 8th ) and Jaboille passes for the lead.
Gilles is now hanging onto 2nd by his fingernails and Arnoux, clearly faster ( after the checker the announcer notes that Arnoux actually set a new lap record ), runs him down with 4 laps to go and passes for 2nd at the end of the long stretch on lap 78. Over the rest of the lap, Arnoux stretches out a nice lead ( it appears to be well over 6 car lengths ) ... and then goes to sleep coming back to the stripe for the start of lap 79.
This provides Gilles with the opportunity to provide us with one of the most spectacular examples of attacking racecraft that you will ever see.
Arnoux fails to carry his full speed down the front straight AND fails to defend the inside line approaching turn 1. This allows Gilles to take the inside line and force Arnoux into a position that offers possibilities ... but possibilites which Arnoux is afraid to take advantage of and he drops in behind Gilles. Because the end of the long straight is "the only passing opportunity".
Arnoux passively goes back to sleep for the rest of lap 79, which is not really a bad choice. Because he has one more shot at the turn 1 entry and is much faster than Gilles. If I would fault Gilles for anything, it would be that I believe that he could have defended the low, 'attacking' line entry into turn 1 because I just don't believe that Arnoux had the stones to carry off what we see happen next.
Arnoux makes his 'standard' out-braking manuever attack at the end of the long straight. And Gilles demonstrates the possibilites inherent in most S curve corners. IF you can hold position in the outside lane through the front half of the S THEN the vast majority of racers are going to lose their minds when they find the situation reversed in the back half of the S. Of course, Arnoux also gets the short end of the stick when contact gets made in turn 2 and he goes off track. Repeated contact and aggressive moves are made until Gilles firmly establishes 2nd once more ... and the race is over. Because Arnoux is not going to make those kinds of hyper aggressive, four wheel slide moves that Gilles is going to.
re: #4, I'd suggest a counterpoint. "Don't overload the driver with data." I'm going to risk ruffling feathers by saying I think most racecars have too many instruments.
I would agree that for most races, people don't need any more than oil pressure and water temp. Maybe a tach for a road course on the long straights. But if you're in the middle of a *RACE* and are busy looking at the tach so you can figure out when to shift? Yeah, you're doing it wrong. By the time you get to a race situation you should have the practice necessary to know BY EAR / butt dyno when you need to shift.
Further instrumentation can be useful for troubleshooting or problem analysis ( if oil TEMP is climbing faster than water temp you need to get off the track in a hurry because you might be losing a bearing, voltmeter will tell you that your misfire is because you're losing the battery or alt, etc ) but it doesn't do a lot for you unless you're in radio contact with a crew who can fix your problem the next time you come down pit lane.
1971 Saloon Car race at Crystal Palace
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY5zdnGvT0c
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDAK4jBKmow
This is great fun, an example of American speed on the straights vs English handling in the corners. I won't say it's the cleanest thing I've ever seen but it's interesting to watch that 350 Camaro get hounded into driving off the track.
No one else has ever seen anything interesting along these lines?
Jackie Stewart gives Captain Slow some ( very ) basic advice about driving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rpFXdWtK4
Jackie breaks down cornering into 8 subsections ( I think the last time I heard the NASCAR boys discuss this in depth they considered 5 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhgOXVnHYXA
F1 champions debate some of the finer points of racing in traffic, Jackie vs Ayrton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgSe1CUa3SA
I suspect that Ayrton missed a little of Jackie's point due to the language barrier as Jackie was trying to get him to compare his record vs historical F1 greats and Ayrton seems to have wanted to compare crashes with the rest of the field.
I'm in on the minimal driver distractions.
Data acquisition is the best way to go.
The driver is there to drive the car. It's not their job to babysit the engine.
All of my cars have FBI (freakin big indicator)
There are no guages in the drivers direct line of sight.
The FBI is a converted shift light on the dash just within the drivers peripheral vision.
It goes green 500 rpm before redline, yellow if temp, oil pressure or voltage hit warning markers and red if a shut down is mandatory.
Most drivers like it some don't. But it lets you concentrate on driving.
And really after some seat time you know whether the car is healthy or not.
All hail the mighty "B" cam.
Fred
About the Senna vs Jackie debate
Senna was correct in the greater strategic sense of points racing. Prost HAD to make up 10 points on Senna's lead over the last two races of the season. While Prost needed to win the race the one absolutely critical criteria was that he HAD to finish both races. Prost could only get 9 points in one race and in 1990 F1 only gave points to the top 6 finishers.
As such, it is then Prost's responsibility not to provide opportunities for other drivers to dive bomb him and it's also his responsibility to back out of dangerous situations IF he is aware of them. Of course, there was no way he could have seen in his mirror AND reacted to Senna making that attack. The answer is that Prost must defend the low line into the corner before Senna ever makes the attack. If Senna wants to attempt some crazy move where he slings his car from the inside to the outside and then attempts to turn back to the right ... that's just not going to work. If Prost defends the inside line and Senna just runs into him it will probably result in a points penalty and possibly a grid penalty in the last race. Once Prost had established the lead for corner entry, turn 1 was his to throw away. And he did.
I suspect Jackie was correct with regard to Ayrton's overall recklessness but I wasn't following F1 very closely so don't know much about that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Formula_One_season#Race_Fifteen:_Japan
Pretty much the same situation as Senna / Prost, only in NASCAR. The Gordon / Johnson / Bowyer fiasco at Martinsville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkEwOiKQqc
Gordon allowed this wreck to happen.
1 - Gordon failed to properly assess threats. Johnson is his team mate and, while sometimes aggressive on taking the win away from team mates can be trusted not to take them out. Bowyer tends to lose his mind at the end of races when he's in the top 5. Johnson is also in the much slower lane and has no physical way to get to the bottom of the track.
2 - Gordon is pacing the field, he *permitted* Bowyer to gap back from him coming to turn 4. This gap ( + new tires ) permits Bowyer to jump Gordon on the start. It's Gordon's responsibility to recognize what Bowyer is doing and either back up to him OR start rolling into the throttle and jumping the start 'early' himself. He does neither. He even allows Johnson to hang back from him.
3 - Gordon could still have prevented all of this, even failing at 1 & 2, if only he had defended the bottom line for corner entry. Instead he stayed out looking for the wide entry to the corner and put himself hugely at risk because he KNEW that the second row both had fresh tires vs his old. Knowing that he and Johnson were both on old tires vs new AND being team mates, they should have coordinated between crews that they were both going to defend low on the restart.
4 - Bowyer, I believe, could have made this corner. Only he was unprepared for the contact which he should have known was guaranteed to be coming. I would actually suggest a slight swerve to the right just before Gordon hits him and then back into the corner just as contact is made. This would hopefully get the cars separated and allow Bowyer to manuever the corner fairly cleanly. There's no way Gordon can get through this because he's got Johnson in his right rear and he can't get off of him.
Morals of the story:
Try to figure out who the squirrels in field are and take extra prophylactic measures against them.
As leader, you are responsible for bringing the field to the restart. Learn how to do it.
Todd I agree completely with the post game analysis of the races.
And the strategies are spot on. But really, unless you are an upper echelon racer, is any of that going through your head?
And even if it is, your job is to drive the car. Position and strategy is someone else's responsibility.
You just push pedals and turn the wheel.
For us lower tier racers we worry more about getting an extra lap out of a set of tires before the wife starts screaming bloody murder.
And yes at any level, keep the weasels out of your ass!
All hail the mighty "B" cam
Fred
Personaly, I enjoy reading all this stuff even though as a driver I only do very occasional "track days". I don't have any aspiration to drive like Villeneuve or Prost.
Thing is... I'd really like to see more RACERS discover this forum and get active on it! I don't see any reason this forum shouldn't become popular with the Vintage Racer guys. Our message board software is relatively easy to use, and the BritishRacecar articles should serve as both a handy reference and a magnet. In the other ("BritishV8") sub-forums we discuss technical issues that are frequently relevant to maintaining and tuning racecars too. So, I think this thread might be a VERY positive step in the right direction. The real key to forum success is to hit "critical mass". People will post a question or comment if they think it will get a response. Once they've gotten useful information or entertainment, they'll likely come back. Until there's a steady level of use, potential users are more likely to surf away and post somewhere else.
Nicki Lauda wrote a book on driving, and then lamented that people wanted him to discuss the "racing line". He basically said, "if you don't know, I can't tell you". (He explained that on a Grand Prix circuit, everyone drives the same line. If they leave it, they're on the marbles. He downplayed the rest.) I don't think there's much doubt that Lauda excelled in setting up suspensions (plus wings, tires, etc.) of his respective cars. Race after race, his cars were dialed in. If I could nudge this thread (or start another), it would be toward practical advice for improving car set-up. If you want to look to the real masters, what can we learn from them about set-up?
DiDueColpi Date: February 13, 2014 03:55AM
But really, unless you are an upper echelon racer, is any of that going through your head?
For us lower tier racers
a - I never have been an 'upper echelon racer'. Most advanced thing I ever raced was a mini-stock ( 4cyl ) oval track car. If someone with more experience, greater accomplishments or better analysis has something to say, I'm all ears.
b - This stuff CAN be used at any level. Do you need seat time? Absolutely. The race slows down a LOT after you get a couple of competitions in. Once you start getting acclimated to the environment you can start working on some of these other things. That's one of the great things about circle track, in season you're competing on a weekly basis.
The reason why I'm pointing these out is so you'll have some awareness of things to look for. It will really ramp up the slope on your learning curve, even if you just see something happen and can then think back and integrate that into something you've seen talked about earlier.
Book learning about boxing theory is nice but there ain't no substitute for having somebody punch you in the nose to help you figure out what the fight game is really all about.
DiDueColpi Date: February 13, 2014 03:55AM
Position and strategy is someone else's responsibility.
You just push pedals and turn the wheel.
No. That's absolutely the responsibility of the *racer*. If you're just holding the wheel? Please, keep an eye on your rear view and make a lane when you see a faster car coming. Because I can dump you pretty easily if it comes to that ... [ grin ]
If you're faster than me? You'll probably never see me.
Curtis Jacobson
(He explained that on a Grand Prix circuit, everyone drives the same line. If they leave it, they're on the marbles.
This changes depending on the year of competition, tire compound, laps into the race, etc. In some situations it actually is true. OTOH, that turn 1 move Gilles made on Arnoux was the very definition of 'impossible racing line' and at the very end of the race with maximum 'clag' accumulation.
Also, with respect to marbles, you can widen the racing groove all by yourself simply by making a point to run the corners a bit wide in the earlier laps of the race. This has the effect of sweeping the marbles up the track.
In my experience, it's far more often true that people are afraid to step out into the upper groove than that there is no speed in the upper groove.
Also, if you don't push your car into a four wheel drift at least once in a race weekend you've got a LOT of speed left in the car that you aren't getting too. For one thing, how can you figure out if the car is tight or loose if you don't push it that far? You can't even make suspension adjustments if you don't push the car to the point where you're sliding.
As an old driving school instructer told my group " if the guy in front of you is taking the classic line ,then you will have to do something different" lol
Dave
Irish Touring Car looks to have the same mentality as the British Touring Car Championship series. Rougher than a corn cob in an outhouse. Seriously, get on youtube and look up BTCC races. They beat the living snot out of each other, which is hilarious to see from road racers. You just don't get that kind of thing from the SCCA.
Anyhoo, here's a couple of instructive ITCC races.
Notice the jump on the start that the black and pink car gets, I think he probably knows what he's doing.
I think it likely that yellow square with black X denotes a rookie, NASCAR uses a yellow stripe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHYg-A2DJw
Around the 4m mark, Murtaugh starts to lose his cool. You'll notice he's overdriving the corners, shorting the apexes onto the dirt and pushing way too wide on the exit. This is actually costing him time and, more importantly, getting dirt on his tires. At 4:07, he overcharges the corner and has to lock up the brakes at the end of the straight. He saw the corner coming, he knew he wasn't close enough to get position on the blue car, CALM DOWN.
By 6m in, Anthony has calmed down a bunch and is getting much cleaner.
Around 7m in, he's starting to late apex and trying to time the corners. He then makes a pass through the esses at the end of the straight but I think the Honda actually screwed up. You notice that the blue car in front walks away from both of them at this time. Murtaugh makes it through pretty cleanly.
I figure at this point the red mist had kind of set in for the rookie ( who had been roughed up by the blue car earlier ) in the ( rental? ) white car and Murtaugh gets tagged at corner entry coming to the straight and then hooked on the straight ... and that's the end of his day.
Hey, it's racing. Sometimes things happen in a hurry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXdDxQLdVvs
This is a very short clip, demonstrating the dangers of not respecting your fellow racers.
You notice that the #8 is running very wide coming to the corner, allowing plenty of room for the camera car. The problem is that the driver of the camera car shorts the corner. Because of that, he hits the curb. Because of that, his car jumps ~3' to the left of where he should be in the corner. Because of that ... he whacks the #8 pretty hard in the RR.
Now, it's possible that getting hit in the LR was just the #8 trying to catch his own car. But I doubt it. I think it was payback. #8 was probably sitting there thinking, "I gave this bitch all the room in the world and he still beat the hell out of my car. Well, we'll see about that."
A little twitch to the right and he's fixed that problem right up.
The first rule of roughing someone up is, don't let them get back too you. If they can get back to your car by entry to the next corner? You're probably going to pay. And you shouldn't be f'ing with them that hard if you aren't actually faster than they are.
Your goal in racing should be to have 1/4 of the fun that Bill Caswell had.
http://jalopnik.com/5497042/how-a-500-craigslist-car-beat-400k-rally-racers
This is an F1 documentary released in 1975 and narrated by Stacey Keach. It's European and features footage from topless beaches in pt 1 and a VERY hard to watch death in pt 2 approx 30 minutes in. As such, it's Not Work Safe viewing. It does have numerous good points being made about the mentality of the racing driver.
Pay attention to the drivers being interviewed. Many of them died before this movie was released.
***NSFW***
Champions Forever: The Formula One Drivers
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzvRz7hWdFA
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTwHT8e42ic
***NSFW***
Here's another Jackie Stewart retrospective. This has a nice practice methodology starting at 18 minutes in which demonstrates what I was talking about when I said "smooth THEN fast".
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09A3Iu-qfk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09A3Iu-qfk&t=18m
Martin makes a comment about this method at 19:14. Think about that and tell me WHY you think this is working. There's also an aspect of this which is excellent for competition racing which I don't see anybody talking about.
Notice also that Jackie's method doesn't directly teach you anything about 'apexing the corner' or 'proper line' or any of that.
I'll give you a hint as to why smoothness is so critical: your tires.
I like that rig. Dead simple. A "G-Analyst" does the same job better, but isn't nearly as photogenic.
quote: "Think about that and tell me WHY you think this is working."
Things naturally smooth out when you keep eyes focused further away.
Well I think it's all about the contact patch really. That's all you've got to do everything you want the car to do, four little spots on the pavement. And anything you do is going to affect those spots, most of which makes them smaller, discounting aerodynamics of course. Under almost all conditions you are shifting traction from one patch to another and it's a sort of dynamic dance you're doing there, and trying while you're at it to get the most contact from the patches that can best push you in the direction that you want to go. It doesn't much matter whether it's forward, back, left or right the forces are much the same and most times a combination of two plus up or down. And while it's quite complex if you're thinking about it, when you're doing it it's much more a matter of feeling the forces, feeling the contact, and balancing out those forces to keep the tire right at the edge of adhesion all the time. You would think that being 2 wheel drive complicates things but think of it as a dance and it gets easier. You can leap forward on your two legs much easier than you can back up but too much of an angle and your feet will slip. Same thing here, it all balances out. Once you know where your limits are all the way around the circle you can ride that line, provided of course you have enough power and brakes to get to the front and the rear of it. In other words, if you gave Jackie's bowl steeper sides to match the car's abilities you'd want to be right up at the rim all the time. But if you were, anything erratic (with the exception of straight line braking and acceleration) would have you chasing oranges. In short, you overload the contact patches. You watch those old movies, and you see the back tires hanging out quite often, but by doing that you know just where that hairy edge lies and just how far over it you can go. The road surface itself naturally plays a part. This is why I never was really comfortable with the idea of running over the rumble strips on the inside of a turn. Yes the inside tires have very little traction, but I simply have a hard time believing that giving up what little is there and upsetting the rest of the car is faster. Acceleration and engine braking can have a dramatic impact, even more so than using the brakes, because in addition to side loading you're trying to spin the tires. If you are right up on that circle coming through the corner and you mat the loud pedal that force adds to the side loading and the tires will slip and put you sideways and this was always my complaint with turbos because they were just unpredictable enough to make riding that line uncertain. Less of a problem on a closed course where you can practice your exit points. Likewise engine braking has the same effect. It can be used to good effect in a hairpin though and dramatically cut the transition time to rotate the car if you have the balls to put it into a half spin and recover smoothly but on race tires where the speeds are up there the amount of time to be gained by this maneuver steadily decreases to the point where the advantage is lost.
This is one reason I so fell in love with the MGB to start with, it was simply a joy to drive at the limits and very forgiving of mistakes, making that hairy edge at the limits very wide indeed compared to a lot of cars. Because of that it's a tremendously fun car to drive at it's limits and beyond. As you make it faster you often give some of that up, but it's still tremendously fun at the limits, especially with more power and better brakes. However, you can easily get by with testing the limits of a stock MGB on a quiet country road with no traffic but as it is improved it doesn't take long before a race track is really the only place for that sort of behavior because the speeds go up so dramatically. 20 mph around a hairpin while sliding is one thing but doing the same at 50 or more is quite another, and though race tracks have their hazards they are overall much more predictable. And repeatable. And safer.
As far as choosing the apex, if you're clear of traffic why wouldn't you use the whole track provided you didn't have to jog all over the place to get there, but otherwise I've always felt there were at least two lines through any corner and maybe more. The one to pick seems to depend on the tactical advantage.
Jim
Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Things naturally smooth out when you keep eyes focused further away.
No. Well, at least not primarily, you should always practice looking WHERE you want to go. But that's something you should be doing whether you're riding a motorcycle or hang gliding or racing or skateboarding.
Martin changed his primary focus FROM the orange TO the corner rather than the other way around as he had been doing. Once he did this he was practicing splitting his attention as I was talking about in #7. Focusing on the orange to any significant extent at all is actually a mistake as the orange is a *lagging* indicator.
By the time you start sawing on the wheel or stabbing the throttle to keep the orange in the bowl you have already completely fubared the corner.
But the technique of splitting your attention is critical when running traffic two or three cars deep so I like this practice method for reasons far beyond what they were talking about in the video.
BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
Well I think it's all about the contact patch really.
True. But it goes beyond that.
Go out to the car you drive on the street and stand next to one of the front tires. Put your hand on the fender. Give the car a shove.
Notice how the suspension starts moving? If you pay close attention you'll probably see the tire *sidewall* flex the first cycle or two.
How much does your car weigh? +3000lbs?
How much do you weigh? 200 lbs? And you can induce movement in the suspension this easily.
Now, consider this: when you go flying into a corner at high speed AND YOU ARE NOT SMOOTH you are hammering the suspension WITH THE ENTIRE WEIGHT OF THE CAR. You're deforming the contact patch that Jim was talking about, you're wriggling the car around on the sidewalls but you're ALSO inducing transitional force cycles in the suspension.
To whit: the car is rocking back and forth.
IF you are smooth THEN you will significantly raise your max corner speed simply because you're not going to have these induced load spikes transitioning from contact patch to contact patch until your shocks get them damped out.
Martin claims to have been to many track days before this show and he still dropped THREE SECONDS off of his lap times. That's a HUGE improvement. He was able to do this because he was no longer inducing load spikes.
There's other ways of doing this as well. A trick my father taught me ( one of the few ) for Orlando Speedworld is that there is a small ridge in the track as you arc into turn 3.
The proper way to drive this is to begin your arc into the corner slightly early, STRAIGHTEN your front tires just as you hit the ridge, wait for the car to 'land' and then arc back into the corner.
The object is to not 'land' the front end with steering angle on the contact patches because that's just going to slide the tires.
The ridge isn't actually large enough to get air but you can certainly feel it from the drivers seat.
BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
if you gave Jackie's bowl steeper sides to match the car's abilities
I'm pretty sure that Mercedes could corner WAY above the g-forces that bowl it was equipped with would keep the orange contained. Also, if you get the sides of the bowl too high you're not going to be able to see the ball. And the whole contraption is going to interfere with your sight lines when turning to the right no matter how short it is.
Which is probably why it's never really caught on as an instructional tool.
BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
if you're clear of traffic why wouldn't you use the whole track
a - most applicable to you, is setting up for the next corner
b - rough patches of pavement ( the 'racing line' obviously sees a lot more use than the rest of the track and is often patched or rippled )
c - water / rain ( top of the track will usually dry first, it will always have less water during a storm )
d - bowl shaped corners where there is significantly more bank angle at the top ( often seen at high bank circle tracks, such as Darlington or Winchester IN, where the race line is actually up against the wall )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvWV0mA5jFE
e - elevation changes
for a few reasons.
BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
This is why I never was really comfortable with the idea of running over the rumble strips on the inside of a turn. Yes the inside tires have very little traction, but I simply have a hard time believing that giving up what little is there and upsetting the rest of the car is faster.
It's faster because you're straightening the corner out. You're trading less grip for a shorter distance AND a much shallower arc. Yes, I know I just got done yelling at you to be smooth so you wouldn't upset the suspension. < grin > IF you can be smooth THEN you can always choose to *not* be smooth if the situation warrants it. If you don't have the skill set to be smooth ....
This will, of course, depend on the corner and the track as to whether or not you want to do this. It's also much easier on the car ... meaning less breakage over time ... if you don't short the corner.
Here's a news blurb demonstrating the Final Point.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/teenager-who-crashed-bubba-raceway-park-dies/nfJ87/
Inertia loading/tire shocking the contact patch, in lieu of horizontal G-loads. I believe beneficial tire shock,(superficially increasing the contact patch),can have merit. According to Nikki Lauda,rapid on/off of the throttle, worked for him. When he would get in a corner too hot, and nothing else would save it, this was his last option. At least in slaloms, this seems to assist in maximizing the outboard contact patches, for initial set-up, in the turns. I'm a rank novice, but it seems to work for me.OK, maybe not "rank". My first slalom, ever was at Los Alamitos,Ca. Corvair Club, D-prepaired, very low budget. I was beat .05 of a second, for first place, by a very well prepped Datsun 510. Corvair a better design ? Novice not know.... roverman
roverman
Inertia loading/tire shocking the contact patch, in lieu of horizontal G-loads. I believe beneficial tire shock,(superficially increasing the contact patch),can have merit.
*shrugs*
Who am I to disagree with Niki Lauda?
This brings up a good point though; you'll hear all kinds of crazy things in the pits and from other racers. Some of it well meant, some of it just spinning tall tales but LOTS of it wrong.
Always verify for yourself. If you try something and it doesn't work ... remain aware that you may be trying to do the right thing THE WRONG WAY.
There's many a time I've watched guys get some advice and go out on the track to try to implement it and I'm immediately facepalming because they're doing it the REALLY wrong way.
My father once told one of our friends that when trying to make an outside pass, he should run a shallow corner entry to pinch the inside car down. Which our friend immediately tried to implement. Only he wasn't even up to the passenger door on the car he was trying to pinch down so the other driver had no opportunity to even know that the outside car was pinching him. The inside guy just kept getting bashed in the RR.
This went on for ~5 laps until the inside guy finally got spun and hit, breaking his rear axle out of the car. Needless to say, this caused a lot of hard feelings.
The key here being, IF you want to influence the other driver's line ( and this can be done from either lane ) THEN you have to be far enough forward for him to SEE you. At a bare minimum, you have to be up to his door, just so contact doesn't spin him out.
And now for something a bit different:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1061825-Instructor-stories
In addition, you road course boys aren't any more safe than the circle trackers. Summit Point, WV killed an instructor for Hyperfest and two more cars wound up in the trees during a race this month.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/instructor-killed-in-wreck-at-summit-point-during-hyperfest/87259/page1/
http://www.your4state.com/story/d/story/update-instructor-killed-in-accident-summit-point/39462/rjWFfbKgt0W3CDbMCgcDbA
http://www.your4state.com/story/d/story/deputies-release-identities-involved-in-fatal-cras/22505/E1ISa3iYBE-k0_5mfp9cAQ
http://www.your4state.com/media/lib/180/a/b/b/abb54fc5-7804-4944-9847-a259b3168c97/Original.jpg
I swear, I'm not homo for Jackie Stewart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-jAk-i5A_s
This driver may, MAY be having too much fun:
http://www.streetfire.net/video/driver-freaks-out-during_157239.htm
He seems to be much better than the driver in front and the only thing i would complain about would be that he just locks up the brakes and tracks right in behind the spin. However, this does not appear to be a race situation and it may be that he just wanted the other guy to see him laughing. Otherwise, there was no reason for him to even slow down in that corner. :shrugs:
So, this actually started from me cross posting from the Chump Car thread ... only I forgot to get all of the good stuff from that. So, I'ma cross post the rest in this post:
Todd McCreary
TVR Sagaris beating each other up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBHMqYDGHrQ
Winstanley's car is obviously slower, but what was his specific mistake that allowed the pass?
Hoods does make some outside passes but only on blatantly slower lap cars. i'd have liked to see him try to make a real effort to set Winstanley up properly from the outside on a couple of those corners.
looks to be the Coastal Circuit:
http://www.angleseycircuit.com/information/circuit-map
BlownMGB-V8
Looked to me like he let him by.
Todd McCreary
Effectually, yes.
But there was a two part driving error which enabled Hoods to drive by. You'll notice that earlier, Winstanley was cutting across Hoods' nose very aggressively. There were several corners where Hoods was almost completely alongside Winstanley AND on the inside of the turn in the braking zone and Winstanley used his better, wider corner entry to carry more speed in and then chop Hoods nose. He probably intimidated Hoods into not getting into the throttle like he normally would but I'd want to compare instrument traces before I made that a definitive assertion. Most road racey guys are finicky like that.
1 - Winstanley cleared the lap car too early before the corner ( as fast as his car would permit him too, sometimes slower is better ). He exacerbated this by slowing for the corner as he moved out.
2 - Winstanley moved to the right, in front of the lap car, in order to get a better arc into the left hand corner. This effectually allowed Hoods a straight line into the corner, which is worse for corner speed but which he used to establish a dominant position ( he was probably nose in front of Winstanley ). Then Hoods carried his line all the way to grass on corner exit, forcing Winstanley to back out.
The lap car IS NOT the threat. Winstanley forgot this and it cost him the lead and the win.
The better answer would have been to slow and just barely clear the lap car by corner entry. Then, hammer through the corner as fast as you can and swing your line all the way out to the grass on corner exit ( max speed ). The lap car isn't going to be there for you and 2nd is going to have his corner screwed up because he's going to be pinned beside the lap car.
Qualifying is the wide entry, perfect apex game. Which isn't useless in a race, but is very nearly so when actually contending for a position. How are you going to cut a perfect line into the corner if the slower guy in front of you is already taking that perfect line? You can't pass a guy if you're under his rear deck lid. You can wreck him from there, but you can't 'pass' him.
Racing is *more about positioning*. Racing is about establishing your own position on the track, taking away the other driver's line and putting him in positions that he is uncomfortable with. Note that this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with touching his car. Although a Chumpcar race is going to have a lot more to do with circle track mentality ( rubbin is racin ) than it is with the normal, "oh my God, don't touch my pristine sheet metal" attitude of an SCCA road racer.
The basic rule of thumb for side-to-side contact is, if the car in front gets turned across your nose, you were wrong. This means that your front tire needs to be near the driver door if the guy on the outside comes down on you.
People say Schumacher was an a-hole. Which, he often was. Sometimes even self destructive and stupid ( he caused a wreck and destroyed his car under yellow while leading Monza once because he idiotically brake checked 2nd place while following the safety car ). What they don't understand is that he was also a circle track mentality in a road racing world. He was constantly putting his car in a position which scared the bejeezus *out of the guys who were next too him*.
DiDueColpi Fred Key
Hey Jim,
Winning is great. Fun is better!
Todd McCreary
And winning while having fun is best. ;-P
Which is what I'm trying to point y'all too. I've started at the front and spent 15 laps running by myself and been bored out of my mind, even though I won. And I've started dead last and finished 3rd and come off the track going, "Hot damn, HOT DAMN! Can we do this again next week?"
Starting at the front and trying to hold on by your fingernails against cars that are clearly faster than you are can be done ... but it's not very satisfying. Starting at the front and running away and hiding from the field is just flat out boring. Figuring out how to slice and dice the pack, that's where your blood gets moving.
Attack is more emotionally satisfying than defense.
Endurance racing tips ( this originally came from the Chumpcar thread so I'm assuming +12 hours ):
#1
Have at least two spare sets of rims. I assume you'll have to mount new tires several times.
#2
Have multiple full sets of lug nuts. When you come in for a pit stop, zip the tires off *and leave the used nuts on the ground*. Have cool lugs in a can or something and use those to mount the new tires. After the car leaves, you can clean up the pit at your leisure and place the 'old' lugs in the can.
People don't consider how blistering hot the wheel assemblies ( including lug nuts ) will get when you're doing a lot of heavy braking.
#3
Install "race style" studs in the wheels, it's much easier to the lug nuts started. And by the time you get done changing four tires the extra speed you'll waste trying not to cross thread the nuts can be minutes per stop. NASCAR boys are down to 12.0 second 4 tire stops ...
What is a "race style" stud? It's an extra long stud that has a section with no threads on it of at least 1/2" in length out at the end. This functions to center and align the nut so that you can then just jam your air wrench on and fire away without worrying about cross threading.
#4
Have a fender tool.
What's a fender tool? It's a homemade contraption that you use to pry the fender back out after you've hit something by levering on the tire or wheel assembly. My old man made his out of a ~2' long piece of scrap leaf spring welded onto the end of a ~3' long piece of 2" dia tube. You're going to want to offset the tube 'handle' mostly to one end of the leaf section so the contraption looks like an 'L' for leverage.
I saw the NASCAR boys trying to yank out a fender *by hand* at Pocono yesterday. I was laughing, because we'uns use tools for that kind of thing down at the amatuer level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXyAYTAwleA
Moderator Curtis Jacobson
If I could nudge this thread (or start another), it would be toward practical advice for improving car set-up.
Basic Setup concepts ( caster, camber, toe, Ackerman, bump steer ):
http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/1404_race_car_setup_basics_series_part_1/viewall.html
Checking and Setting suspension alignment; the String is your friend "a ball of string, four jackstands, a tape measure, and a plumb bob":
http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_1204_determining_wheel_alignment_string_your_car/
And, the most serious diagnosis problem for a newb, the dreaded "Push Loose".
Beginner drivers have a difficult time picking up on push or understeer because you can usually 'correct' it just by adding more steering angle. Eventually, you'll put enough slip angle into the front end that it will start to drag the car into the corner even though you're killing corner speed.
The beginner often won't notice what's happening because he doesn't recognize what "excessive steering wheel angle" looks or feels like.
The problem comes when/if the front tires grab the track. The sudden transition in grip ( sliding to not sliding ) at the front end will usually break the rear end loose. And, too make matters worse, this will usually happen while you're in the gas trying to accellerate up onto the straight.
EVERYBODY can tell what a loose condition feels like, because you have to counter steer into it or you're going to spin off into the infield. So, you've got a newb trying to fix a "loose" car ... by "tightening" it up. :facepalm:
Needless to say, once you start this cycle you're going to go backwards in a hurry. You may wind up tightening the suspension to such an extant that the front never does grip in the track, in which case you're scrubbing huge amounts of speed all through the corner AND burning your front tires off.
If you're new to racing and you're trying to fix a 'loose' car on corner exit have someone experienced watch you corner and have them evaluate you for corner entry and center.
Earlier I noted that Jackie Stewart breaks corner analysis down into eight parts. Regardless of how many parts you break it down into, the rule of thumb is that you fix corner entry FIRST and worry about corner center next and exit last.
This is because you can't accurately gauge what the car WANTS to do at corner exit until AFTER you fix whatever suspension problems were screwing you up earlier in the corner.
On the chump car of course, the hot lug nuts aren't much of an issue because you have a minimum required pit time duration when you stop and I think there may be a minimum required number of pit stops as well. I'll review the regs closely when we are at the point of having a running car. One might say that this encourages sloppy practices in the pits and maybe it does. I think the reasoning is that it is intended to keep things from being overlooked by rank amateurs. In any case it is what it is, might as well take advantage of it.
Looking back to the clip with the Camaro leading the pack, clearly it was his race to throw away and all he had to do was hold off the charge through the corners but as the race wore on he was gradually losing his advantage. Still, after being passed he regained the lead in the straight and his biggest single mistake was in not playing to that strength, forgetting where his advantages and weaknesses were, and attempting to overtake the faster car through the corners. Had he instead continued to rely on superior acceleration where he had the clear advantage, and then simply always insisted on taking the fastest line through the corners as he was in a position to do, I think he could have won the race. I believe he got flustered when the other driver sneaked by him.
Which simply points out that keeping your cool is the surest route to the winner's circle. I'm looking forward to getting out there and mixing it up in the chump car. Should be quite an education.
Jim
BlownMGB-V8 Date: August 05, 2014 03:40PM
Looking back to the clip with the Camaro leading the pack, clearly it was his race to throw away and all he had to do was hold off the charge through the corners but as the race wore on he was gradually losing his advantage. Still, after being passed he regained the lead in the straight and his biggest single mistake was in not playing to that strength, forgetting where his advantages and weaknesses were, and attempting to overtake the faster car through the corners. Had he instead continued to rely on superior acceleration where he had the clear advantage,
The Crystal Palace race? Man Jim, I posted that back in February.
The problem for the Camaro was that the smaller cars were clearly quicker over an entire lap than he was. He was probably losing near a second a lap to them when they were catching him back up after screwing up themselves.
IF one of them can get by him, especially going into some corners THEN unless he passes them back immediately he's never going to get too them again. So, he threw the car away because he was carrying too much speed into the corner because he was carrying too much speed off the end of the straight because he was trying to complete that pass before the opportunity was gone forever.
But I agree, they definitely hounded him into it. You notice that the one guy turned his headlights on. That there tickles my funny bone. That's a driver that's thinking. He weren't none too shy about door to door contact either. Which given that the Camaro was probably +500lbs heavier than he was actually takes some stones.
Yeah, I think it matters a lot where in the twisties the second pass happened. If towards the end and he could hang on to the straightaway he might have had a chance to blow past. He obviously had the superior acceleration. But my guess is that his brakes were starting to give out a bit which would explain the differences from the first few laps. If early on though you are dead right and nothing he could do at that point was going to wind it back in. Apparently that was how he felt about it at the time, but if he'd ignored his mirror and just driven the fastest line as hard as he could consistently there would not have been much they could have done to get by even with the better handling. That kind of driving wears on the nerves though and obviously his competitors were doing all they could to make it as bad as possible. (Well, nearly anyway, I didn't see a whole lot of nudging.)
Jim
and the Final Point gets proven again, by Tony Stewart ( of NASCAR ) and Kevin Ward. Driver fatality and cursing, Not Safe For Work:
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFhWa3-RU4
NSFW
Getting pushed over the top of the cushion is just a fact of life in dirt racing when you're running the outside. If you have a long career, it will probably happen to you hundreds of times. You have a choice, you can back out or you can eat the wall.
Prior to this incident, I would have said that it was impossible to guarantee that no one would ever crowd you off the top of the track again. Well, I was wrong. Kevin Ward Jr ( age 17 ) showed me an absolutely permanent solution to other drivers "disrespecting" you. He's never going to get forced wide again.
Tony Stewart will, of course, be raked over the coals for this. And he does bear some responsibility here.
But the ONLY reason this happened is because Ward was a dumbass who charged a moving sprint car *on foot* at a dirt track.
Do any of you want to put your children in a race car?
MAKE THEM WATCH THIS VIDEO.
And explain to them in no uncertain terms that much of the risk that happens on a race track *is within the control of the driver*. Kevin Ward made a decision to climb out of his car and charge another car. Ten seconds later, he was dead. When you put your child in a race you are now hostage to the decision making skills and judgment of that child. Do you trust your child not to kill themselves or someone else? Because their every decision could have that result.
I blame movies like Iron Man and Captain America.
Jim
and now for something completely different:
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/305045.gif
Good video on repetitive concussions by a former F1 doc:
http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/08/09/three-things-you-need-to-know-about-concussion/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpVuaGqB6I0
Back to the subject of whether or not the outside lane is "viable".
I pointed out earlier that these passes were far more common in stock cars. Well, you are really doing yourselves a disservice if you aren't watching the NASCAR races, both circle track and road courses.
It's not just that the regular drivers have gotten incredibly sophisticated at Watkins Glen and Sonoma and are making outside passes all over the place and making the "Road Course Ringers" look bad.
Kyle Larson is a rookie who's running so high on the track, he's scaring the bejeezus out of the Cup regulars. He's got the cameras on him when he's running by himself. *And he's making it work*. He's got five top 6 finishes in the last six races.
Are there tracks where the outside line is absolutely NOT viable? Yes.
But Larson is demonstrating that not only does an outside lane exist but that you can run higher than ANYONE has even attempted before.
Course, I'm posting this before the Martinsville race ... which is one track where he'll probably have to run low. Heh.
Any thoughts on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH8hxNMXLiA
On a course that short there is no straight and with only lefts they might as well be in a full time power slide all the way around the track. Have to be right on the edge of traction all the way around. Doesn't take much of a rub to cause big problems. Looks to me like somebody is playing fast and loose with the safety and lives of everyone on the track.
Jim
I'm a friend of smooth driving, handling the tires with care:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys3tojcTZTc
BlownMGB-V8
On a course that short there is no straight and with only lefts they might as well be in a full time power slide all the way around the track. Have to be right on the edge of traction all the way around.
Not sure which driver you're referring to with that. Although it doesn't really matter. Stenhouse was the only driver having this 'problem'. And to such an extent, that all of the announcers and even Speed and his spotter were commenting on it.
Part of the reason why I posted this was, even though Speed wasn't making an outside pass, Lil Dicky demonstrates the primary problem with attempting it:
If the driver on the inside just keeps his foot in it a teensy bit too much ( or leaves braking too late ) he can 'accidentally' slide up the track into the outside lane and 'accidentally' bump you ( slowing you down enough to prevent the pass ) or even wreck you.
You'll notice that these drivers typically don't have any problem holding their line UNLESS you're outside of them. Once or twice may be nerves or adrenaline. But if they don't stop, you KNOW for certain that it is deliberate and malicious.
You'll notice that Lil Dicky never once made any attempt at a top side pass or even tried running a half lane higher. He just kept dive bombing the end of the straights and punting Speed all through the corner.
Just for reference, Toledo is a fairly flat 1/2 mile. It's not a very small track. Slinger is a high bank 1/4 and 3/8s are common.
BlownMGB-V8
Looks to me like somebody is playing fast and loose with the safety and lives of everyone on the track.
*shrugs*
If that's with reference to Speed, I'd have done the same. Only, I'd have waved the fast cars by in the bottom lane and I'd have taken Stenhouse in the LR when he went by.
And yes, I certainly would mean to destroy his car. He did, after all, try to destroy Speed's.
That's the other problem here though. The failure of race direction. ARCA decided that they didn't want to 'interfere with the points race'. What they should have done was to park Lil Dicky as soon as he put Speed into the wall.
I haven't watched many ARCA races, so I don't know if this is a common problem for them or not. But this race was a major error on their part.
Using the chrome horn is one thing, just wrecking the hell out of the guy you're racing for the points championship is completely unacceptable.
MadMarx
Date: April 05, 2015 05:46AM
I'm a friend of smooth driving, handling the tires with care:
Hah, nice race. You're clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the class. And you had loads of fun starting at the back, didn't you?
I have a question though, what are you using for top gear? An electric OverDrive unit? It looks like you're making your ~160 kph shift with your left thumb.
Hi Todd,
yep, I like racing from the back of the grid.
Gives me the most pleasure and fun.
I don't care much about the finish result, any place is good for me but often I finish first with the TR4.
The Moggy +8 is a hard nut to crack :-)
I run a 4.55 final drive with a dogbox and a J-OD controlled by a switch on the steering wheel.
I run the OD only as top gear.
The car can do about 203 kph.
On the Nordschleife I use a 4.1 final drive which is good for in excess 215 kph.
The IMSA TR8 is not on that level on performance. Engine yes - very strong engine, but handling - a catastrophe at the moment. I hope the new springs and dampers will help.
Next weekend racing the TR8 at Hockenheim F1 track.
Cheers
Chris
Handling is better now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLIYt_K5pY
From the world of jet fighters comes ... OODA loop theory.
What is "OODA", you ask? It's a heuristic to analyze the 'How' of what the most successful dogfighters and racers do to win.
1 - Observe
2 - Orient
3 - Decide
4 - Act
5 - goto 1
The object being, to process this loop 'faster' than your opponent and thereby to put him back on his heels and always be responding to you.
There are, of course, hard limits on this theory. You can't just take random actions and pretend that because you are 'confusing' your opponent that victory is yours for the taking. For an aircraft, you can't allow the wing to stall, you can't fly into the ground and you don't want to put yourself directly into the Red Baron's crosshairs. Because it doesn't really matter whether the Red Baron 'understands' the action you're taking, if you're in his crosshairs he's probably going to figure out that he needs to pull the trigger.
For racers, we are severely restricted by the width of the racing surface, how much damage we will do to our own car by running into his car and the stewards rulings regarding rough driving.
Here is a very good story on 40 Second Boyd and the development of the theory:
http://ejectejecteject.com/archives/000172.html
Here's the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
Great stuff, Todd!
Certainly applies to any traffic situation, whether the other drivers are watching you or not, but more especially if they are. Oddly enough, I learned this tactic walking down the hallways in high school. At that time, to me it seemed intuitive and a single process, although breaking it up into discrete steps certainly gives definition and helps to identify which steps may be weak.
Jim
This video demonstrates two of the points I've made earlier:
1 - outside passes are viable, even on road courses. Perhaps even more so on a road course, where the first part of an 'outside' pass becomes the inside on the next corner.
2 - a well fought 2nd can be far more exciting and satisfying than winning the race by a mile. You tell me, have you ever been this excited to *win* a race? Even the winner was busy watching the race for 2nd on the trackside big screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAFRS5r2g8E
What is the cognition error Whincup made? You don't get any points for saying he got on the throttle too hard ... any fool can see that. The question I'm asking is, 'Why' or 'What did he fail to Observe in the situation'?
And listen to that crowd roar.
People *watch* racing for the passing ( and wrecking ), winning is an afterthought.
Looked to me like maybe he was paying too much attention to the rearview mirror and not enough to the fastest line through the corner. Initially he came in a little shallow then didn't turn in hard enough. But note that McLaughlin (sp?) faked him out by swinging wide and cutting back just as Whincup bit. That let him get inside on the turn. Whincup still might have pulled it out if he'd reacted fast enough to tighten his radius but apparently he tried to power it out instead. A simple error but his tires just couldn't take it. At least that's the way it looked to me.
I used the same tactic just today out on the bike. Coming up to a light behind a SUV I held hard to the left line and encouraged them to edge that way, then when they were moving too slow to change I went right and had enough room to slip by and make a right-on-red. Success! (usually they will ease right just enough to block you, especially if they catch on to your intentions) Didn't occur to me at the time that I was using a racing maneuver, I just wanted out of traffic.
Jim
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 15, 2015 01:41AM
Initially he came in a little shallow
That was intentional AND CORRECT. Whincup is defending out-breaking ( sic ) attacks from the inside. If he allows McLaughlin to attack the inside of the corner you can wind up with that Arnoux-Villeneuve example I linked in the third post/first page. And that's the best outcome. Worst case, McLaughlin locks up his tires on the attack, slides into him and punts Whincup into the weeds. Very rarely does the inside driver get the short end of the stick on these attacks when you're dealing with full body cars ( something like F1 will knock front wings off of the trailing car so it's not so good for the rear driver in those kinds of cars ).
I don't think McLaughlin would do that intentionally, both drivers had been EXTREMELY clean and respectful of each other to this point. But adrenaline is running very high for both and misjudgments are quite easy in these situations.
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 15, 2015 01:41AM
But note that McLaughlin (sp?) faked him out by swinging wide and cutting back
That's not a 'fake', that's the correct response to Whincup's defensive tactic and should be exactly what a veteran / champion like Whincup was expecting to see once he committed to defending the bottom lane. In fact, I doubt very much that Whincup was even looking in his mirror at all.
Whincup's shallow entry / early apex is going to practically force a wide exit on his part. So the best 'counter' to that is a wide entry / late apex so you can attempt to carry speed while exiting a lane down from Whincup. You're not going to be able to carry to the edge of the pavement AND MAKE A PASS because Whincup is going to be there. You'd best know this.
The problem for McLaughlin was that Whincup's car was clearly faster ( why, I don't know. perhaps a 3 stop vs 2 stop strategy ) at this point in the race and no matter what action McLaughlin takes he should not be capable of re-passing ... without a Whincup mistake.
The lesson to learn from McLaughlin is to always put yourself in a situation to capitalize, even if you don't think you're going to get the chance.
Whincup's error was that this corner was not like the previous ~600 corners ( 16 turns * 38 laps ) of the race.
Whincup should not care if he beats McLaughlin to turn 1 ... because turn 1 is beyond the checker.
Whincup has already demonstrated conclusively that he's got a significant speed advantage vs McLaughlin. All Whincup has to do is recognize two things:
a - he only needs 1/2 a straightaway with the lead
b - he only needs ~75% getting off the corner.
Put those two facts together with the knowledge that his car is significantly faster and ... there's really no reason for spinning your tires up on corner exit. In fact, I would give up another bit of exit speed just so I could shade down coming onto the straight. I would still be swinging to the outside verge, but the point would be to confuse the following driver momentarily, perhaps causing him to breath his own throttle while he waits to figure out if I'm going wide or not.
Have confidence in your car and recognize when you DON'T have to get 10 tenths out of it. Use your own positioning to confuse and impede the challenging car *when viable*. I'm definitely not saying to block people into the grass, that kind of thing pisses me off. I'm just pointing out that you don't have to make it easy for the attacker.
This is, of course, quite easy to critique from the Monday morning Thrustmaster racing seat, quite another thing to recognize in the heat of the moment after all the dicing on the razor thin margins they had just gotten done doing.
Heck, I'm sure both driver's spotters were going bonkers in their headsets after all that mess. That doesn't help the decision making either, if you've got somebody screaming in your ear.
Spotters should be calm NO MATTER WHAT. If they can't be calm, they need to shut it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ej15AcI0Dw
What did McDowell do differently from everyone in front of him?
What was Kurt Busch ( 41 ) doing that I've already pointed out earlier in the thread should be your practice under yellow?