BritishV8 Forum

Just bought a poorly done GT6+ V6 shell from a local CL ad.
Very poorly done, big hole in the bonnet to clear the Turbo V6.
Looks like they also added spacers to raise the body, Mazda live axle conversion is too wide, chopped out the firewall, etc.

I bought it as a home for one of the several rebuilt Buick V6's I happen to have on hand, from 198" to 231".
All non-turbo.
My 225" is a particularly strong runner.

I'm thinking a T5 trans as I really do not need a Muncie in such a light car.
Could use some advice on weather or not Camaro T5's are really the issue some say they are do to an angled mounting in the Camaro?

I will try to post some pics of where I am starting from.

I have a basic question to start with.
Are the V6 and BOP/Rover motor mount pads the same as the V6?
I know the V6 derived from the V8 so hope they are the same.
I do not have a V8 handy for comparison.
Current frame mounts look like they were done for early type SBC engine mounts.
If possible I would like to move the engine further back.
I have a junk block for mock-up but need to finalize my transmission first.

V6 will be about double the original HP, I'm not after another Cobra Coupe clone so this will be sufficient.
V6 is only a little heavier but also shorter than the BOP V8 so it should end up a front mid-engine.

Originally I was going to do this to a Spitfire Mk. III I have but this should be a little better.

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Well I just confirmed the first part I want to change.
The flywheel I have is 50#!

Want to get it down around 30# or less.
My SBC aluminum flywheel is 13#.

Web searches are fruitless, everything is for for Chevy or BOP V8.

I had a Weber V6 flywheel on the shelf for years in case I ever needed it.
Now that I sold it a couple of years ago during an ill advised "Clean up", I wish I had it back.

Anyone have a source for a lighter odd-fire flywheel?
A drawing for where to safely remove weight from mine?

Ah, found them at TA Performance and the price is not bad.
Edit for update, Aluminum around 15#, Steel 30#.

No room for the car inside right now so I decided I should begin with sorting out the 225 V6 engine issues.

It got pulled from a Hurst Jeepster Commando when it began spewing water from the back of the block one very cold night.
I assumed the block was cracked and I would have to rebuild the components into another.
Looking it over after removal no crack or displaced freeze plug could be found.
From the amount of water spewing from the block that night I expected to find a large chunk missing!

Tonight I pulled the top end.
It appears the head gasket may have blown at the very rear of the head at the rear water passage.
Still seems hard to believe the small gap I found leaked that much, but under pressure I guess it's possible.
I will have to strait-edge the block and heads before reassembly, hoping a gasket is all I need.

This engine ran very strong and now I have a better idea of why.
I did not build it so had not seen any internal details before now.
Edelbrock 600 and corrected jetting for my altitude.
Offenhauser 360 intake is gasket matched to the ported heads.
Light weight valve spring retainers, one coil and one flat  (Damper?) spring each.
Adjustable pushrods.
Flat-top pistons with a very shallow dish, no valve reliefs.
Cam lobes look fairly serious.
Long tube headers.
Guy I got it from told me it would do 7,000 RPM but I've never gone over 6,000 and that only very briefly.
Probably a good thing with the stock 50 lb. flywheel.
That flywheel probably had a lot to do with why this engine always seemed a bit sluggish to spool up but ran like a V8 once it got going.

I'm removing the carbon from the piston tops and combustion chambers.
I will CC the heads and piston tops to determine my actual compression.
Do not want to get into the engine too deep but may pull the timing chain in order to identify the cam.
Should probably touch up the valves and fit new seals while it's apart too.
I have all the pulleys and accessory mounts for this engine as it is so I think I will forgo efforts to make it even shorter.

I also have an unfired even fire 3.8 I pulled from a Porsche a local guys dad had racing plans for.
It appears virtually stock internally from what I have seen so far.
I may pull the heads from it too for a better look inside.
Seems odd he may have done so little to it.
Maybe a candidate for F.I. and forced induction since it is an even-fire engine?
It's my No. 1 spare if/when I blow up or wear out the 225.
This is the engine I might try to shorten using later model components.

> Are the V6 and BOP/Rover motor mount pads the same as the V6?
> I know the V6 derived from the V8 so hope they are the same.

I think they are but I'll make a note to check.

> Cam lobes look fairly serious.

See if there are any markings on the cam.  With those, we might be able to figure out the cam specs.

> Long tube headers.

Are they 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" primary diameter?

> That flywheel probably had a lot to do with why this engine always seemed a bit sluggish to spool up but ran like a V8 once it
got going.

The Offenhauser 360 intake is also partially to blame for the sluggish performance.  It's basically an open plenum with minimal runner length.  We tested one on a different engine, along with e8 or 9 other intake manifolds and it was the worst of the bunch. Had the worst low end but and wasn't very good on the high end either.  One of the Buick V6 powered TR7 guys did a fair bit of intake and carb testing on his Buick 4.1L V6 (with Crane H-214/2867-12 cam and TR7 swap headers from John's Cars) and his opinion was the Kenne-Bell #1 Buick V6 4 barrel manifold was, by far, the best manifold available for the normally aspirated Buick V6. Unlike some of the other Buick V6 intakes, the Kenne Bell Number 1 has an intermediate port design and will fit either early or later Buick V6 heads.  He also found that the Carter/Edelbrock 500 CFM carb was better than the 600 and 625 CFM carbs on his engine.

> Do not want to get into the engine too deep but may pull the timing chain in order to identify the cam.

Check the timing chain for wear.  My 231 Buick V6 was pretty hard on timing chains.

> Should probably touch up the valves and fit new seals while it's apart too.

and do a wiggle check on the guides.

Dan Jones

Traded away a KB manifold a few years ago as it seemed inappropriate for a low speed trail Jeep.
Suppose I can look for another.
I have an Edelbrock performer but it will not fit the 225 heads.
Ports on it seem a bit sloppy, not well defined at all.

Need to figure out my engine mounts.
May be able to use the existing mounts, or may want to move them further back.
I have no idea what rubber mounts were used previously as they went away with the turbo engine I did not get.
I think I will try to strip my junk block to make it easier to handle.

> I have an Edelbrock performer but it will not fit the 225 heads.
> Ports on it seem a bit sloppy, not well defined at all.

Most of the Buick V6 intake manifolds, including GM's 4.1L Buick V6 four barrel,
are single plane manifolds while the Edelbrock Performer is a dual plane design.  
It's a little odd that Edelbrock chose to go with a dual plane.  The dual plane
design was designed to compensate for the adjacent cylinder firing reversion
problem that non-flat plane crank 90 degree V8s suffer from.  Being a 90 degree
V6, the Buick doesn't suffer from that problem.   Offenhauser also made a
Dual Port Buick V6 intake.  The dual port design has the runners split into top
and bottom sections with the plenum split fore and aft (rather than the usual
side-to-side like the Equa-Flow 360).  It's essentially two single planes stacked
on top of each other with the primaries feeding the longer path lower runners and
the secondaries feeding the shorter path upper runners.  When cruising, the
manifold operates on the smaller diameter, longer path, runners.  This provides
high velocity flow for good fuel economy and throttle response.  Under high demand
the secondaries open and provide additional flow through the larger top runner
portion.  It's an interesting approach but the packaging required to fit within a
carb intake envelope does compromise the design.  By reputation, it's a good fuel
economy, low end response type intake.  David Vizard did a big intake comparison
on a 350 Chevy V8 which may or may not apply to the Buick V6.  Basically, the Dual
Port was near the bottom of the list when comparing peak horsepower but had decent
area under the curve and was the only intake with better specific fuel consumption
than the stock Qjet intake.  I ran a Dual Port on my Buick/Rover aluminum V8.  It
was smooth and ran well at low RPM but became restrictive at higher RPM.  I've got
another dual port (for a 351C Ford V8) that has been cut apart and ported to correct
some of the port-to-port variation.  We'll be dyno testing so it will be interesting
see how it compares to more conventional intake manifolds.

> Traded away a KB manifold a few years ago as it seemed inappropriate for a
> low speed trail Jeep.

The KB has smaller ports and longer runners than the Offenhauser 360 and has much
less runner-to-runner variation.  If you're focused on lower RPM, you might want
to try a smaller carb than the 600 Edelbrock.  

> Suppose I can look for another.

TA Performance supposedly bought the Kenne Bell Number 1 intake and plan to
reintroduce it.  I sold most of my Buick V6 stuff off years ago but I think
I still have a Kenne Bell intake.  IIRC, a local TR7V6 guy wanted it but never
followed through on the sale.  I can look for it if you are interested.

Dan Jones

very interesting....keep talking about this V6 Buick stuff guys, I'm listening.  

Regards
Greg Hornbostel

Hurst Jeep needed low end, current GT-6 project does not.

Interested in the KB manifold even if I get the one I may have found.
I have a few of these engines, even an old 198" odd-fire.

Going to replace some of my books that seem to have wandered off.
Not looking to build any more of these soon but might later.
For now I may just tweak some I already have with different cam, heads, manifold, or at least identify what has been done to them so far.
Pretty certain one 3.8 is bone stock, the one from the Porsche is a big ????
Sometimes these can be bought with zero miles cheap, why I ended up with so many.

Being so similar to the SBB there is a lot of overlap between the two. Naturally most of the oiling mods are the same for instance. One recommended combo is the stock 4.1 intake and carb. I don't know how good it is by comparison with the aftermarket stuff but it seems to be popular.

That Offy DP intake was a bit of an odd bird. I used one of those as the base for my heatpipe intercooler/blower 215 build by taking out all the port dividers, opening up the top and removing all the dual plane stuff. It ended up having just a HUGE plenum cavity which I stuffed half of the heatpipe into, and then these really short runners. Worked for my application but it seemed to me that as a street manifold it was pretty limited and I never noticed it helping any with the mileage or driveability. But then again, odds are I had it on a very low compression engine so who's to say?

Jim

> Interested in the KB manifold even if I get the one I may have found.

I'll look this weekend and make sure I still have it.

> Going to replace some of my books that seem to have wandered off.

The literature I found most useful for the normally aspirated Buick V6 was the
Buick Stage One V6 Performance Guide by Jim Ruggles, a Hot Rod magazine article
on Smokey Yunick's 5-step plan for the Buick V6, the Kenne-Bell catalog and tech tips
and the S-A Designs V6 Performance book.

> One recommended combo is the stock 4.1 intake and carb. I don't know how good it
> is by  comparison with the aftermarket stuff but it seems to be popular.

The Hot Rod article on Smokey Yunick's 5-step dyno test tested the 4.1L intake
and QuadraJet carb:

 4.1L Buick V6 with stock 4 barrel intake and Qjet carb   152 HP
 Weiand intake manifold and Holley 600 CFM carb           170 HP
 Weiand headers                                           175 HP
 Crane H-214/2867-12 cam                                  202 HP
 Bowl port heads                                          230 HP

The Weiand is similar to the Kenne Bell single plane but has an adpater that allows it
to mount up a Quadra Jet spread bore carb.  The Ruggles Guide also has some dyno test
results but be aware the 4.1L intake only fits the 1979 and later Buick V6s with the
taller port heads.

> That Offy DP intake was a bit of an odd bird. I used one of those as the base for my
> heatpipe intercooler/blower 215 build by taking out all the port dividers, opening up
> the top and removing all the dual plane stuff. It ended up having just a HUGE plenum
> cavity which I stuffed half of the heatpipe into, and then these really short runners.

Starting the the Offy Equa Flow 360 would have been a lot easier.  External the Dual Port
and Equa Flow are the same casting but the Equa Flow is just a big plenum with a side-to-side
divider.  Just mill ount the center divider.  Very popular for mounting Roots type
superchargers.

Dan Jones

Well now, it looks like all the known V6 Buick info is starting to surface again along with some up to date experience with manifolds and headers.  My engine is an evenfire, a 1980 to be exact as I bought the car new.  I had at one point thought about using a 1962 engine to appeese the vintage race gods but after reading through what is available could see no reason to do so as these people are of the mind set that no one but a Carrol Shelby could have done anything like that in 1962.  Anyway, this engine has had a lot of good money thrown at it.  In its final stage 2 form it would probably peel the paint off most fast cars on the street today.  The production line version (in its final form is what I understand is the 109 block) is really a marvel but for a mild street engine a block from anything from 1979 to 1987 (evenfire) is acceptable.  I'm trying to keep this affordable.  Turbo crank and 2 dot rods are good and if you want more compression (for us NA people) find a set of 350 Buick pistons and have the pin area widened for the V6 off set.  Cams, you really need some help here to get something that works with your engine. Heads 8445s if you want the latest.  Headers, here's where I find very little information other than mention of the Smoky headers from Weiand.  I have a set of these and they are simply 1 5/8 tubes about 10" long merging into a 2 1/2 collector.  Headers by Ed sells both a 1 1/2 and 1 5/8 inch header flange and this site states V6 (and makes no mention or make) 1 1/2 primaries 38" long into a 2 1/8" exhaust system.  Information on that site is very interesting.  I'm not sure if I can get 38" of pipe under my TR3 but will look into it.  This is the direction I'm going in and as the sign states "don't follow me, I'm lost" but I'm not too proud to ask for directions.  All this confusion sure makes this a lot of fun.  Just about any engine will fit into just about any car but are we going to be able to live with the result.  

Regards
Greg Hornbostel

I am using my odd-fire 225" to start with.
It's a fairly warm engine that did a good job of getting a heavy Jeep moving.
In the GT-6 with a light flywheel it should do very well indeed.
Hoping to grab a T5 in the next couple of days.

Not looking for all the power possible as I do not want to be forced to go to "Pro-Street" levels of fabrication and mods.
V6, T5, and an answer to the rear axle question should be enough to make me happy with this one.
Working with what I have laying around as much as possible.
It's never going to be a total sleeper but I do hope to minimize visible mods.
Well, except for the currently planned side-pipes and air scoop. ;-)

I've had 225's and 231(3.8) V6's in various vehicles, one of my favorite motors. In my CJ5  I originally put in a 225 out of a 64 Special and replaced it with a  82 231 with a Offy dual port intake, Carter 400 AFB ,Kenn-Bell cam and headers. I later put that motor in a Vega and a 215 in the Jeep. I like the 215, it is just too small. The 231 was much snappier. I read somewhere where they took 3.8 Ford V6 stock shorty headers and cut the flanges off and made Buick flanges. That 225 flywheel is way too heavy.

In a bit of a hurry to sort out major parts for the GT6.
Seems a Mazda Miata rear may be a fairly easy swap?
Maybe put an RX-7 diff in it?
Anyone here familiar with them, or their strength - weakness?

I want to retain IRS, might run the GT6 in our local hill climb event.

I will be using an about 200 HP Buick 225 V6 and T5 to begin with.
Might put an about 300 HP 231 in it some day.

Mazda Miata and RX-7 rears are still pretty easy to find in junk yards.
Miata may be close enough in width?
Also saw some references about some years being stronger than others.
Of course late model parts are only available from the expensive wreckers.

UPDATE; Miata rear is still a little too wide at 56.2"
Simpler to go live axle and maybe update later.
Looking at an Alfa axle now as the width is almost perfect and it has disc brakes.

Verified that the T5 is a WC unit.
GM used the T-5 in F-body cars behind all engines.
In general, the I4/V6 got the following ratios: 1st – 3.50 2nd – 2.14 3rd – 1.36 4th – 1.00 5th – 0.78

From here I will want to figure out my desired axle ratio.

The Alfa live axle rear may be a little marginal.
But it's also fairly cheap with LSD and disk brakes.

Really prefer IRS but also want to drive it THIS year.

Richard, Doesn't the heavier flywheel cancel-out some of the inherent gallop/harmonics, of the the odd fire ? Most of the Yunick and Ruggles work, was with even-fire engines= more airflow and smoother running.Second most plentiful engine built by GM, after the sbc. This means plentiful/cheap, even-fire engines and parts.  Cheers, roverman.

The odd-fire 225 I have is a known strong runner so I will use it while it last.

As posted I also have two rebuilt and unfired 231's as spares to drop in if needed or for other projects.
Trying NOT to take on more projects as I have enough now to last the rest of my days.

I don't mind the "Odd" firing spacing.
An aluminum flywheel and better intake should let it rev nicely.

My daily driver is a loud 11-1 comp. very lumpy - no vacuum cam, headers and double pumper 700 carbed 350 v8 in a 1968 El Camino.
Just got a Muncie to put in it.
Rather drive it than some newer Nader-mobile blessed by the "Green" cult.
Most of my cars have a similar flavor, fickle finger of fate to those who wish to rule me rather than leave me free.

The GT6 will not be my fastest car but should be fun.

I passed on the T5 trans for now.
Since the number tag is missing it's going to be a chore to confirm the gear spread.
I am now told that the Camaro V6 3.50 first is rare, and all the other likely first gear ratios are worse.
Hoping I can just grab another Muncie somewhere, an M21 with any luck.

"Passed on the T5", Just put it in first gear, mark the input/output, and count the turns. Once you figure first gear, the internet will likely tell you the other ratios. A 3.50 first, will likey be pretty useless, with your current RE ratio ?  Cheers, roverman.

Have a line on a Muncie M21, if the seller would just answer his email.
He thinks it's an M22 so may be resisting reality.

My rear ratio can be set later as the current unknown live axle is coming out.

Did some cleaning up during the weather break.
Very little rust, only a very small hole in the tire well area.
Too bad they hacked the car so bad.
I need to cut the firewall and part of the floor from a junk car for repairs to this one.

Found a few extra spare parts, and some that I will need.
Also realized that I am replacing the original six with another six, so may be able to get the original tach to work!

I also found an ironic book in the boot, "Triumph Spitfire and GT6" a guide to originality, by John Thomason.

Did some more disassembly.
Got the body bolts and gas tank out.

Hard to believe ANYONE could do such shoddy work.
Every body bolt is wrong since they had to be replaced to put extra spacers between the body and frame so the tires would not rub the wheel arches.
Rear tires stick out both sides of the car since the axle is too wide.
Guess I should be glad they did not just hack the rear fenders!

I'm thinking I am going to have to create my own IRS rear pretty much from scratch.
I want to get the body off so I can see what has been done to the frame to mount the current live axle.
From what I see so far it probably does not have any actual rear suspension since various bars move in conflicting planes of motion, and at right angle to each other as well!
Any movement would have to be by flex in the components and brackets.

So the major questions of the moment become.

1. Any working drawings out there for a 50" wide track IRS that will handle 250 - 300  HP other than early XKE?
Would like to keep it much lighter than a Jag rear too.
Looks like the rear suspension may be the hardest part of this build.
Going to that much effort I guess rear disc become a given.

2. Chassis reinforcement other than a full roll cage?
I have thought about adding some perimeter tubing but suspect that is better for side impact than actual chassis stiffening under cornering load.
Do not want to add any more weight than absolutely necessary, have gone so far as to consider using hollow bolts where possible.

Just to be non-PC, and since it's a cheap way out, considering a "Spitfire" camo paint scheme.
Did it once before to help hide severe body damage on a beater Spitfire.
Got lots of comment from folk old enough to recognize what I had done.

Samples,
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/2843700589_68ebfc07891281632078.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/JGarrison21281632094.jpg

> I'm thinking I am going to have to create my own IRS rear pretty much from scratch.

You may want to look into what the Cobra kit car companies offer.  I've driven and wrenched on both a Superformance Cobra and an ERA Cobra.  The ERA Cobra had the Jaguar-based IRS while the Superformance Cobra had a Ford 8.8" based IRS.  I found the the Superformance handling was much better than the Jag-based ERA.  I believe the Factory Five Cobras also have a Ford 8.8" IRS option.  A quick search shows 54" (narrow) and 59 1/4" (standard) hub-to-hub widths for the Factory Five IRS.  It appears the Factory Five standard width was driven by the need to match the standard Fox body Mustang solid rear axle width so perhaps the Superformance will be narrower.

Dan Jones

Spitfire/GT6 rear track at 50".
Do not want to flare the fenders.
Not finding anything that narrow even in a live axle.

Poking around the web it seems some Corvair parts have been used in the past by racers.
Need to find some time at a junk yard to look around and take measurements.

Hazy idea at the moment for a Franken-rear of Supra center, Corvair hubs re-drilled to GT6 pattern, and ??? or fabricated uprights.
Need to take a look at Fiero since they already have disc brakes and are plentiful.
Make my own A-arms.
Coil over shocks.

Needs to be good to around 250 HP - 300 HP tops.
Also want to keep it reasonably light.

Narrowed Jag would be the least expensive but not sure there is room for the cast hub carriers.
Need to get my hands on some original components for measurements.

A late night update.
Found some great pics of Fiero rear suspension uprights modified to use an upper A arm.
LONG thread with CAD drawings here, http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000116-16.html
I am not interested in the rocker shocks and his drawings will not directly work for my use.
I probably have to build a sub-frame at the rear of the GT6 but with the body off that should not be hard.
I hope to be able to leave the wheel wells alone.
This may be a way to keep a budget build while also getting much improved rear suspension geometry and brakes.
Since I want to keep 13" wheels I expect to retain the original Fiero calipers.
Much more research to do, hoping to visit a junk yard this week with some calipers and digital camera in hand.

Richard, Check out my old thread on using a Toyota 4X4 IFS for RWD. Using the Toyota short CV axles with Chevy Cobalt stub/outer CV for 4 lug or Dodge intrepid  5X4.5 for 5 lug.

http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?3,22861

Had a look, now questions.

What HP and torque will that handle well, and do you have any physical dimensions?

Looks like a single point mount at the rear and two tapped on the nose face the top?

Might be a good unit to fit between Fiero outer hubs?

Richard, Should handle over 300HP. The 2 holes in front bolt to a bracket that has a large round bushing like in back. I don't have dimensions but, looks very narrow.

Now I need to figure out what rear gear ratio I really want.
Looks like 3.42 or 3.58 and .74 OD from a Camaro T5 trans to be reasonably practical.
Guessing around 160 - 180 HP on the engine, 195/60-13 tires, 5500 RPM normal redline, though I have been told it is good to 7000.
Would like around 70 MPH at 2500 rpm.
The short 22.21" tires look like it's more like 2800 RPM even with the OD.
3.08 gears would be about ideal.

MUST - STOP - BUYING - MORE - CARS !

OK, not really buying "Another" so much as buying a GT6 parts car.
Apparently was a fairly nice car, until some one cut the roof off!

Missing the trans and diff, but the engine is still there.
Chassis and engine may eventually get a Spitfire body?
If I were smarter I would just resell ALL the pieces I do not need.
But it seems every time I do that I regret it later.

Bought a clean ex-Camaro WC T5 for $250.00
Confirmed it really is from a V8.
1352-196, so 2.95 first gear and .63 overdrive in fifth.

Also going to try to buy the bolts to set up my two post lift.
Hate to do it outside but there is no room inside.
Have to start getting these cars built.

Looks like the T5 will fit fairly easily.
Need to sort out my engine mounts to be sure.

A few notes on attempted progress.

Been getting the parts car apart.
Not sure which frame I will end up using, not thrilled with the sloppy mods to the old one but kind of hate to cut up a cherry one.

Pulled both front valance pieces and they have Bondo in them.
Looked around for a serious fiberglass chin spoiler as replacement and found none that I like, nothing even close in the U.S.
Anyone have a serious front spoiler and source they can point me toward?
Can fab my own but trying to not get sidetracked.

Also determined what the last builder used for engine mounts.
Now I can drop my junk block in for mock-up and see how it looks.
Once that is done I want to remove the body to work on the frame and suspension.

Wire loom in the parts car is about cherry so may be simpler to use it than sort out the butchered one.
Now realize the original tach is cable driven so cannot be readily used, disappointed in that.
Might be able to get the guts switched to electronic and keep the face?
Or modify an early 'Vette distributor to work?

Next trip to Reno I want to stop at the wood shop and buy some new veneer for the dash.
TR will be good practice before doing the same to my Marcos.

BTW, what do we call a TR-Buick, a TRICK?

Made a quick and dirty bar to act as an upper link to fit between the rear uprights on the GT6 parts car since the spring and diff are gone.
So now I can at least roll it around until I finish stripping it.

Digging through my stash of old parts I realize I have a decent set of original Super Oscars and a similar size set of Marschell? yellow fog lamps.
The TRICK-6 may just have to be done Rally Car style!
With radar cars, radar planes (and now drones?) skulking around all day I now do most of my flying at night, lots of light would be a good feature.
Probably need the extra displacement to drive the alternator when it's all switched on!

Need to get my rear wheels off the car to see if they can be saved.
Fairly wide 13" with "Basket Weave" centers and I kind of like them.
One has been butchered with a second set of mounting holes.
Need to take it to my wheel guy and see what he says.

Cleared the concrete apron and assembled my engine hoist.
May actually get the engine mocked this week.
Will take a picture to post.

Something along these lines, but with a pair of large fog lamps mounted low on the bonnet hinges.
(http://www.racecarsdirect.com/photos/ad1NXdXLm7F.jpg)

This one gets harder every time I try to go forward on it!

Took off the rear wheels today so I could get a better look at the horrid live rear axle mod the previous builder did.
To say it is frightening and has no travel does not begin to relate the horror.
Maybe he used a BIC lighter and coat hangers to make his welds?
Engineering by faded memory of something he heard long ago and had never understood?
Short version, DEATH TRAP!
Hard to believe this thing ever turned a wheel under turbo V6 power.
Not so hard to believe it was parked after a single very short drive.

And speaking of the rear wheels, I probably shouldn't.
Since the axle stud pattern did not match the TR it seems he reamed out the holes with a hand drill, or maybe a dull round file?
One may be repairable but I'm pretty certain the other is ruined.

Need to replace a set, numbers from the back side are JAPAN 935-2  13x5.5  48 4.
A pair of 14" to fit might also work.

I have nice set of Enkei 14" from an Alfa I may be able to adapt if I must.
If I were to give up on the IRS I could just fit an Alfa Spider LSD rear axle I have.

Busted my butt over the holiday and got my 9000 Lb. two post lift installed!

Getting bodies off frames just got easy.
Can probably also rig it to hoist engines.

Bought a set of new lenses on eBay to fit a set of Cibie Super-Oscar shells I had laying around.
These are "Bi-Oscar" lenses that are supposed to act as driving and fog lamps.
If they work well I will only need one set of additional large lamps similar to the red car above.
I could also mount my set of Super-Oscars for additional portable daylight.
Need to rig them for quick removal on event days.

Bought new Fel-Pro head gaskets for the 225 V6.
Not happy with them, they are oversize, clearly intended for use on a 231 engine.
Tried to get proper 225 gaskets from TA Performance but they are out of them and have no source for more except COMETIC, $$$.
Suggestions for a proper 225 head gaskets source welcome!

Have to find some more money, decided I want to fit vintage 14" -  4x108 Cosmic wheels.
They will look "Correct" for a GT6 and are not too hard to find.

Need to get the extra spacers out from under the body so that it sits in it's true position for good measurements.

Mocked the engine into place tonight.
Not too happy with the current mounts.
I think I should be able to go 1.50" further back and 1.00" down without modifying the oil pan or moving the steering rack.
That would put the steering rack just behind the crank pulley.
Looks like I will have to notch a forward cross member but not too badly.
Also looks like engine and intake should fit under the bonnet.
May have to get clever on the air cleaner.

Will try to add a pic in the morning.

Links to pics of BOPR conversions might be helpful, the V6 is nearly the same but a little shorter.

Late night observation.
I need to move the engine back at least 4"!

Had a thought and measured the front of the bell to the T5 gearshift distance.
I had expected to need to move the gearshift forward, now I find it actually needs to go BACK unless I want to nearly bang my hand into the dashboard.

This all means a bit more firewall modification than I had hoped.
It also means moving the steering rack, which is claimed by some folk to be necessary in order to fix the front geometry and eliminate bump-steer/bad ackerman issues.

On the plus side it will further enhance the weight balance!

Mocked it up with a junk block just to see how it looks.

Here are the old mounts I am starting with.

Right side.
 DSC00889.jpg

How the engine sits now.
DSC00890.jpg

Left (Drivers) side.
DSC00892.jpg

Engine should go further back and down as much as possible.
This will be made a bit more complex as I will have to relocate the steering rack.
I had hoped to keep this a fairly simple conversion so that others might more readily follow my method..
DSC00893.jpg

I set some tin and a manifold with carb on the junk engine.
I also set a piece of aluminum flush with the top of the cowl.
The engine MUST be lowered, I went to a lot of trouble for an uncut bonnet!
Since it is essentially the same as a BOPR but shorter this should not be too hard.
If I can get the front pulley to clear the steering rack I should not have too much trouble getting 4" further back.

DSC00894.jpg

DSC00895.jpg

DSC00896.jpg

Ordered NOS head gaskets today.
Hoping these have the correct sealing diameter around the cylinders, Fel-Pro appear to be "Generic" and were very much oversize.

Perhaps not directly progress on the car, but my new car trailer is nearly complete.
Need it to take the Trick-6 to the new shop and take the body off using the two-post lift.
Then I can get a better idea of exactly what i have to do to fix the frame. fab rear suspension, etc.

Fairly good morning today.

Sold a bunch of spare stock parts to a guy who is keeping his original.
Just about recovered what I paid for the parts car with it's uncut bonnet.

Got the Trick-6 on the just completed car trailer for transport to the other shop.
So now I will be able to lift the body off and do real work on repositioning the engine and trans, redo the rear suspension, etc.

Real progress today?

Got the body off the frame at last.
Got the horrid rear suspension off the frame.
With a clear look I'm thinking it will be a lot less work to use the other frame and start my own modifications without having to cut away the old junk.

Have to decide what I am doing for rear suspension ASAP since a lot of other details depend on it.
It appears I will have to get clever to get enough room between the frame rails for the T5 tail-housing and a drive-shaft.
Thinking I may need to bolster the outside of the frame with reinforcement rails.

Looks like I will be searching for a reduced diameter front damper and crank pulley.
May have to go with a cog belt.
Buick V6 should interchange with the BOP 215 with the possible exception of balance.
So this should have been done before by someone.
Really want the engine 3" - 4" further back and lower by the same amount.
Going to have to figure an answer for the front mounted oil filter too, it will want to jam against the front suspension.

Axle I took out is some sort of Japanese unit with a posi, once identified I hope some ricer builder will want it.

Pics of the horrors below.

Two-post lifts are nice!
DSC00952.jpg

The old transmission mount mess.
DSC00951.jpg

Single trailing arm, forked mid-way to act as a four link, but only in the previous builders fevered imagination.
With short right angle links working against each other on each side!
The only rear suspension travel was whatever the rubber bushes and metal flex allowed!
Whatever I do can hardly be worse.
DSC00947.jpg

Side view.
DSC00948.jpg

Okay,"Bump Steer" correction time.
A while back I found a thread with all the details for doing this but cannot locate it now.
I will try to document how I go about this.
First some careful measurements and then take the the steering rack out.
I will also remove the springs, shocks, and anti-roll bar so that I can manipulate the suspension for measurements.

Bump-Steer correction seems to want the rack moved to the rear, which may help in moving the engine back.
I also need to shorten the rack about 5" between the tie-rods. (This is where I need exact measurements)
Ideally the rack should apparently be moved UP a little as well.
May not be able to move the rack up as I am trying to LOWER the engine.
So I expect to get improved but not ideal steering.

I think this will also fix the outside wheel turning too far, stock it goes practically sideways!
The stock Ackerman angles are a mess.

The not so fun part looks to be modifying the frame.
I will practice on the old frame that has already been chopped up a bit before making changes to the frame I intend to use.

The other major suspension project will be making new hubs to take my 4x100 MM PCD, 6"x14" Enkie wheels.
The rear is going to get a custom fabricated IRS.
So much for remaining a member in good standing of "Team ¢heap"!

Still utilizing what I have laying around as much as possible.

Got the old front shocks and springs out tonight.
Shocks may be KONI red adjustable and appear to be in good condition except for paint.

One issue I have had from the start is that I could never get the front end down to a reasonable level.
Even with the engine in and my bouncing on the frame it sat way too high.

Free length of the springs I removed is 13"! (EDIT, confirmed they should be around 9" free length)
Not sure of the rate, don't really care.
The Buick V6 is only a few pounds heavier than the old in-line 6 and will sit further back.
I will start with stock springs from the spare frame, maybe some custom springs later.

With the shocks and sway bar links removed I can finally mock up the front ride height.
That will let me get a better idea of what changes I need to make to correct bump-steer and ground clearance.
Right now the bushings are fighting me, they do not allow free movement of the control arms and spindle.
I will see what I have to do to get easier movement.

It looks like a simple change to Heim joints on spacers may help with the tie-rod angles.
Need to find my book on suspension and look a few things up.

Along those lines, I found a complete '88 Fiero less engine, cheap.
Not sure how well the rear suspension would adapt to the GT6, if at all.

Eh, the '88 Fiero is a pretty long drive away.
Gas price makes it a little too dear and the bolt circle is wrong.
A shame, looked to be fairly simple to fit and readily available.

I now have a hazy idea of how to do my IRS for the Trick-6.
Of course wanting to use my 4x108 PCD 14" x 6" Enkie (Very light) wheels gets to be an additional issue.

Looks like Ford or Supra diff. will be easiest.
Both can be had with forward mounts that may be close to what I need.
Ford should be unbreakable even with an aluminum carrier, I only have a little V6.
Supra may be smaller and so easier to fit.

Ford appears easier to find, in cast iron.
Supra seems to be a little hard to get, CL sellers don't answer if you live more than a couple of miles away and tend to want high prices despite not even knowing the gear ratio's.

Supra's do show up in the P&P salvage yards, IF you can get there fast enough.
If not they will be on CL a day later, at 5x the price.

Outer end may be simpler if I can use Ford, some are the correct PCD, have to verify that some IRS are still 4 x 108mm.
Also need to confirm a 14" wheel clears.

No matter what I use it's going to be custom control arms.

Found this on the web, from V8S2000 board:

"Ford 8.8 IRS Info
ALL 99/01/03/04 Cobra axles have a 28 Spline outer that goes into the hub

99 Cobra axles have a 28 spline inner that goes into the diff

01 Cobra's came with stronger axles than 99

01/03/04 Cobra axles have a 31 spline inner that goes into the diff

03/04 Cobra's came with stronger axles than 99/01

03/04 Cobra's came with Carbon kevlar clutch packs

03/04 Cobra's came with larger pinion flange than 99/01

All Cobra's came with limited slip

There was not a 2000 or 2002 Cobra released on the american market.


The 8.8 IRS was offered in the following vehicles

99/01/03/04 Cobra

1989-1997 Thunderbird Supercoupe (All Posi-traction)
1992-1997 Thunderbird V-8 models with rear disc brakes(some posi-traction)3.08, 3.27
1992-1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (All aluminum carrier, most non-posi-traction) 3.07, 3.08, 3.27, 3.55, 3.73
1989-1992 Mercury Cougar XR-7, supercharged V-6 (All posi-traction)
1993-1997 Mercury Cougar V-8

02+ Explorer/Mountaineer = 3.55 and 3.73 open, 3.73 LSD , 31 spline

To determine the gear ratio, and whether or not the unit has posi-traction, look at the tag that is attached to one of the differential cover bolts. The first 4 spaces signify the gear ratio and whether or not it has posi-traction. If the unit has posi-traction, then the second space will have an L in it representing (limited slip), the remaining spaces specify the gear ratio. For example, 2 L 7 3 means posi-traction with a 2.73:1 gear ratio. Most people pay a salvage yard between $300-$400 for the donor parts. Also, Ford Motorsports sells a 15lb. lighter aluminum carrier with gears and posi-traction for around $650.

Richard, I have bad news for you. All the Ford IRS are 5 lug. TBird ,Cougar and Lincoln are 5x4.25, Mustang Cobra are 5x4.5. Look at 90-96 Infinity Q45 R200 3.54 ratio Viscous LS. Popular in TR6's. 6 bolt flange. Then use 2004-2008 F150 front axles With Chevy Cobalt 4 lug hubs. You may need an adapter plate if the 6 bolt pattern is different and the Cobalt hub is 4x100mm, just drill 4x108 pattern  inbetween existing holes in hub. Make your own upright that  is triangular for the hub to bolt to. Here is a pic of the F150 axle:
22-new-and-old-shafts.jpg

Got to love the 'net, several on-line sources say IRS T-Bird and Mustang use 4x108mm PCD.
They also show 5x108MM on the SAME charts.

I expected the five lug for V8's and the four lug on four and six cylinder cars.

Have to run the CNC lathe all day, hoping to get into the salvage yard later this week and have a look.
I will take a look for the suggested parts.

Oh BTW, what make is an "Infinity"?
I do not track vehicles made after about 1970 so have no clue.
Yah, Madison avenue hates me.
I stopped looking at new cars when Gov. Org. took over designing them to protect us from ourselves.

EDIT, Looked up "Infinity" to find it's a fancy Nissan, who used to be Datsun.
Too new for the self-serve salvage yards but I may know one that deals in newer import cars.

OK, the new 225 head gaskets finally arrived.
Original Buick embossed steel # 1357869
Steel is .025" thick.
They are embossed so I'm not certain of compressed thickness.
The old composite gaskets were .040".

Looks Like I'm buying a Merkur IRS rear end since it's a bit smaller and lighter than T-Bird.
Also uses the correct PCD but I'm disappointed that the U.S. models got drum brakes.
One more thing to upgrade ASAP.
Found a U.S. Merkur club, hope they will talk to me.

Got a little time late this evening to play with engine position.
It looks like if I remove the mechanical fuel pump and relieve the front of the right side shock tower (Basically cutting off the original engine mount) then fit a remote filter adapter I CAN fit the engine 4" further back and 2" lower!
Right now the front tab of an original Buick engine mount is just BEHIND the rear of the shock tower.
The original conversion had the rear tab in FRONT of the tower.
The front of the cylinder head sits just about even with the top of the suspension upright, middle of the A arm.
The back of the block is about 1" behind the forward most body mounts.
I think that is about as good as I could hope to get.
I will steady my mock-up and drop the body back on long enough to confirm everything clears properly.

I've reached a point where I have to sort out my pulleys vs the steering rack.
Have to research the best rack mounting location too.
I know it needs to be heavily modified to correct the ackerman and bump-steer.
Moving it forward would help with engine fitting, but I think it's recommended to move it back and up for improved geometry.
This will still be a road car, so there are limits to what I can do.
Even less than ideal steering can be much improved over original.

An idea for steering improvement?

Poking around various forums all sorts of suggestions come up to fix bump-steer.
Seems some racers bend the steering arms for improved geometry.
But I'm not limited by ANY rules and realize that the steering arms are BOLTED on.
So why not just make new arms with corrected geometry?
14" wheels give me a little extra room and I would have an easier engine fit if I move the rack forward about an inch.
I know forward would be bad with the stock arms and rack, but with new arms and a shortened rack maybe I can still improve on it?

Pics of where the engine is sitting now.
Quite a bit further back and about 2" lower.
Original fit had the forward soft mount tab at the front of the tower which forced the engine to sit high.

I cut away the factory and old engine conversion mounts.
With a remote oil adapter and no mechanical fuel pump I now have a fairly good fit.
Looks like I need different engine soft mounts or another inch of rearward movement.

Right side.
DSC00973.jpg

Right side close view of mount.
DSC00975.jpg

Left side.
DSC00974.jpg

Well, a little frame notching improved the engine fit.
Got it back another inch, the front of the damper on the crank is now dead even with the front of the forward cross member.
Cannot go any lower without having to do surgery on the suspension towers.
Keep in mind that this engine is virtually identical to the BOPR V8 except for being two cylinders shorter.
I may have to notch the frame some more to clear a starter, guess it's time to buy a mini-starter to confirm.
Got the engine dead level in the frame, thinking I want to lower the trans end just a bit more which will also lower the intake a fraction but also requires more notches.
Looks like just a little firewall trim.

Transmission it a little higher than I would like, wish it were a bit smaller.
Time to buy the mount.
Going to end up with a stubby gear lever in any case, hope it shifts easily.
Will end up with a pretty tall tunnel around the trans, might see about turning that into some chassis reinforcement.

The 225 lower pulley is 2.10" long, the 231 pulley is 3.20" long with one more sheave.
Using the 225 pulley it looks like I can get away with only moving the steering rack forward 1/2".
Just enough to be able to change a belt.
Looking for some feed-back on doing custom steering arms to help with the geometry.

Fresh pics.

I put some chalk on the mounting tabs so they show better.
DSC00981.jpg

Right side notch to clear the starter mount.
DSC00976.jpg

Left side notch.
DSC00978.jpg

An overall trans view.
Knowing that T56's are even larger I would really like to see how one of those has been done!
DSC00982.jpg

While searching the 'net one-handed due to a wasp sting I found this thread http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/1228-jangos-rear-end-kit/?hl=%20sierra%20%20diff

Seems the nearly ideal answer to Spitfire/GT6 suspension has been done, and it used the Sierra/Merkur diff.
But nothing new on it for several years.

I've attempted to contact the developer, maybe he will respond?

Well, finally some progress worth mentioning.

The old body is off of the unmolested chassis.
No rust in the frame and it appears perfectly strait.
It also provides me with a partial stock rear suspension for comparison and measurement purposes.
Once I pull a diff and leaf spring from the Spitfire I will have a complete "Stock" rear to look at.

Thinking of running some additional frame members along the outside to add some strength and maybe a hint of rigidity.

Also now know how thin the original body mounts are, I will need the engine even lower than I had realized.

I will be cutting the spare body apart, a shame some one cut the roof off as it's about as rust-free as can be found.
I need the lower rear license plate area and think I should keep the rear fenders as spares.
Scuttle and sills go up for grabs if anyone needs them.

Never heard back from "Jango" about his Merkur/GT6 conversion, I will email him again.

Found out that the KB manifold is an inch taller than the old manifold which is already port-matched to my heads.

Need to find a source for a "Mini-Starter" to fit my engine.
Summit Racing had no listing.
I did get a new clutch arm and throw-out bearing.
Need that to see how much room I need to clear it.

Nothing major to report but I have made a deal to buy a nice engine test stand on the cheap.

Tired of finding a leak AFTER the engine is in.
This stand has mount plates and headers for several engines, I hope one of them takes Buick.

Looks like I also found a mini-starter source.

Time to go make some $$$, it seems all the cheap research and dismantling is done.

Some actual progress of the "I bought another part" sort.

Got a Merkur complete manual  trans rear today.
If P&P were not selling at half price I would have left it there and bought the locally available Supra rear instead.
P&P jacked the price up by ignoring their published "Car rear end, drum to drum" price and charged me piece-meal for each component rather then the assembly.
So my $75.00 rear was nearly $200.00.
I did try to verify price in advance but they refused to quote pricing over the phone, sending me to their website instead.

Open diff, not posi as the web info postings call for.
Aluminum carrier and a little smaller than T-Bird unit.
Some web threads suggest that a GM 7.5" posi can be made to fit.
Ratio appears to be 3.65 which I believe is what the web claimed and should work well with the T5 OD.
Anxious to do some measuring  and to look at a thread on the Sideways Technology forum which gives some clues for how to fit it.

I know I will have to fabricate uprights and "A" arms, the current trailing arms plus axles, are HEAVY and 10" too wide.

I will try to get decent pics from the start once I get it cleaned up.

Okay, a little cleaned up.
Details on dimensions and weights once I get them.
Stock seems to be about 60" from one wheel mounting surface to the other.
With custom arms and shorter axles I should be able to make it the same as stock GT6.
Since a guy in England has already done these I know it "CAN" be made to fit.
I'm hoping to make mine more of a true bolt-in than he did.

DSC01067.jpg

DSC01066.jpg

Looks like a English or German Ford Scorpio or Sierra diff. Mine is 3.64
Sierradiff3.64.jpg

Merkur XR4TI,  Sierra in Europe, had a 2.3 Turbo in front of it originally.
I finally got it all stripped down, broke several Torx bits getting the axles off.
Had to cut the heads off a couple then grab the shank with vise-grips after the CV was out of the way.

Not much progress on the car itself of late but I have got my used engine test stand in the shop and mostly cleaned up.
Still have some gauge wiring to do and may have to make a buick V6 mounting plate.
From now on my engines get run in and adjusted BEFORE they go into the car!
I also bought some older Allen engine analyzers and smog testers I will hook up for precise adjustments.
Still a little work to do on those too but it's coming along well.
My hearing is not so great anymore so I'm having to rely more on electronics for tuning.

Nothing truly new on the car itself beyond sorting some spare parts.

But I have sold my Marcos so have fewer projects which should mean this one will move a bit faster once the weather warms up.

Bought another Allen S.E.A. oscilloscope that actually works so instrumentation for the test stand will be excellent.
Still working on a functional gas bench but I will only need that to fine tune the carbs.

Minor progress of a sort.
Mocked the rear diff up.
I clearly will have to cut away at least the center of the rear upper horizontal member.
Thinking I may be able to utilize at least the side mounting plates from the original diff mount.
Wondering just how much noise and vibration I would suffer if the diff were hard mounted?

Also took a fresh look at my engine/trans mockup.
Would like to get both of them lower and maybe a couple inches further back.
Problem is that the very narrow frame rails can only be notched so much before it all becomes two halves or very weak.
Considering adding to the outside of the frame, but then the floorpans profile becomes a likely issue.

The Buick V6 is essentially the same engine as the BOPR V8, but around 3" inches shorter.
So it should be an EASIER fit.
Front mounted oil pump keeps being a pain.
Would really like some clear pics of how BOPR's have been done into Spit/GT6's by others.
My T5 is less bulky than a T56 but still seems pretty large.

Want to avoid an additional hood scoop if possible, and I know it should be as I've seen the pics.

tr3engine022.jpg
Richard,  this may or may not help.  When I put the weber carbs on my Buick V6/TR3, the hood wouldn't close by about 2 inches.  I dropped everything down in the chassis and then found that the filter wouldn't go on because it interfered with the frame and steering.  My solution to the problem is in the bypass and if you zoom in on that area of the engine you will see that I used a piece of cast iron and made the disk that threads onto the bypass.  I installed a gasket and located the area that I could use several cast iron pipe fittings that are brazed to the cast iron disk.  It interfers with the frame when you try to screw it on or off so it has to be installed before the engine goes into the car.  Sorry but I don't have a photo of it in the engine compartment
Regards
Greg Hornbostel

Appears very similar to the commercial unit I have.

Steering rack placement is being an issue.
Pulleys clearance too.

Have had to set this project aside for a while.
Concentrating on the Alfa Romeo Spider and El Camino for now.
Need more space and completing one of those is the best way to get it.

Wish I had your intake, would be worth a scoop in the bonnet.
But even if a manifold were availablde the carbs are now crazy priced.

It is similar but the pipe fittings are angled toward the center of the crank.  At the time I bought that manifold I was looking at a 166 ci stage 2 Buick midget engine with mag dry sump, individual port fuel injection and all the pipes and drives for a little more than what I payed for the manifold and carbs. It had 12:1 cr and a magneto and I thought that it would be a beast as its a little hard to find over 100 octane gas around here. The 231 has 10:1 cr and runs fine on 92 octane.  I talked to Jim Inglese after I bought the manifold to find out if he had records of jetting for the setup.  He said that he didn't and that there were less than 25 manifolds manufactured.  I see a set of 3c IDAs bring more than I payed for the whole setup which was manifold, carbs, fuel lines and linkage.  The sound that motor makes is different from a normal carburated Buick and boy does it perform and it gets 24 mpg to boot.  We are coming out of this cold spell and 60 degree days are forcast for next week.  Don't have to tell you where I'll be.

Greg

What happened to the manifold patterns?

Could maybe replace the 3V Webers with F.I. bodies.
I have CNC machines, could even make them if I had to.

You will have to ask Jim Inglese about the patterns and core boxes.  It is a pretty narrow market to say the least.  PMO also sells a direct port injection for the 911 based off the 3c IDA.  I have CNC equipment too and a aluminum foundry to go along with it but its a pretty high price to pay for one manifold.
Greg

I played with some of the manifolds I have, not enough area on top for three IDF's or IDA's.
Might be simpler if I had a manifold without an integral thermostat housing to start with.

Fabricated manifold might do it but are a LOT of work.
Twin DCOE's cross-ram might be a little simpler but still not IR so would it really gain over a standard Holley beyond tuneability?

Two IDF/IDA can certainly be done but not sure how well they would work with the V6 port arrangement.
Would basically be just an expensive 4V with vastly improved tuning ability.

I have a hazy memory of a three barrel holley, might just look that up for study but it's probably crazy rare and expensive too.

I love the summer weather but not what it does to income.

Changing my product lineup to get more free time.

For now I will be doing some measurements on the Trick-6 diff parts in an effort to make drawings for the rear suspension.

To update this thread.
Tired of doing nothing but WORK, so took an hour to get some measurements.

I have a complete Merkur rear end.
Also found some pics of a very nice Merkur to GT-6 conversion on another site, but no measurements.
I think I may be able to incorporate the original diff mount center section into my design.
Would save some fabrication time.

These measurement should be close but were done with a ruler and square.
I found the Merkur diff to be just under 12.0" wide one axle flange to the other.
Need to learn how to measure the pivot point for CV axles so that I will be able to model suspension.
Center-line to drivers side is 6.80" and passenger side 5.13"
Original axles are different lengths, not sure if that's really an issue as I do not want to off-set the diff mounting.
Aluminum case and fairly light.
About 10.75" from input flange to output centerline.
I do intend to use the Merk hubs as they are a simple bolt-on design and the correct PCD for my wheels.

The GT-6 track is 49.0"
Enkie wheels I have are 6" X 14" with 4.00 back space.

Had hoped to be able to get some preliminary numbers for the rear suspension from this but could not figure out how to change the track width in VSusp.

Did find GT-6+ chassis drawings in my workshop manual.

This is not expected to be a simple conversion.
I already know I have to cut away part of the original frame but it's just a body mount that has to be modified to let the diff sit far enough back.

I've seen mention of several suspension software programs on the web, I now have a PC I can load them on.
Have decided that I need to figure out the rear suspension before moving on to anything else.
The rest of the car should be comparatively simple.

Daze has a nice IRS forum:

http://irsforum.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1

Had not planned to do so but put a few hours into fitting the engine and trans today.

Finally have them sitting just about as perfectly as possible.
Cannot get any lower even if I had a dry sump system, bottom of the pan is even with the bottom of the frame.
Engine is dead level with the frame, I may want to raise the front just a fraction.
Front of the crank damper is just about flush with the forward edge of the front cross-member.
If I cannot get the bonnet to fit without cutting now, it cannot be done using a Buick V6 engine without a full custom frame.
It's clear now that the "Easy" conversion would be a Capri V6 and T9 box.

Aghast at how much of the frame channel I've had to remove for this big fat T5 and the V6 starter.
Going to have to get very creative to restore the frame strength.
Looking like I will take a page from the old Shelby Mustang, putting a removable brace between the shock towers.
Find this advisable since I've had to remove some of the original gusseting to clear the oil pump.
Also cutting clearance for the front pulley in the forward cross member.

Reversing an aluminum single sheave SBC crank pulley will give me enough room to move the steering rack back 1.00" which seems to be all that should be needed.
Doing that and shortening the rack to fix the backward Ackerman and bump steer.

No room to mount the alternator in a conventional manner so current thinking is to reverse mount it.
Would like to see clearly what was done for BOP conversions.
The water pump drive may become even more bizarre, perhaps utilizing a jack-shaft from the alternator if I cannot make an electric pump fit.
Hoping to use the Rover 4.0 front cover after I get it machined to use a distributor.

Just about ready to actually put the front engine mounts in.
Will be nice to weld parts ON after so much cutting them off.

Still not certain about the front suspension.
I recall reading that some folk have adapted European Ford spindles and arms.
Since I need a 4x108 pcd anyway I will look into that as well.

Once the engine and trans are finalized I can also finalize the mounting of my rear diff.
From there rear suspension mocking up should be much more accurate.

Anyone used a CV joint driveshaft?
Would like for it to remain reasonably light.

Seems my final How in the H*** task will be the exhaust!

Think I figured out how to reinforce the frame.

Going to have some rectangular section steel bent to match the chassis shape where it's been cut away.
This will need to be as close to the inside width as possible and half the depth.
That will be welded inside the original chassis, which is even thinner than I had expected despite having no rust.
This restores the frame to a shallower box section.

Then I want to add another bent box section to the inside outside edge, about a third of the original width but flush to the top of the original rails.
That gives me a doubled up box section that will probably be stronger than the original when welded full lenght.
But it still leaves the extra inside width and depth I need.

Now to find a fabricator who can do the bends!

Hope my description makes sense, I have no idea how to attach a drawing even if I had one.

Also looked some more at the alternator mounting issue.
Even reversed getting a belt to clear the water pump is going to be interesting.
I may be back to using a cog belt and a tensioner to push it away from the water pump bolts.
Hoping I can rig an electric water pump.

Found a company that says they can do the bends so I've traced the frame profile.
Not sure you will be able to see it, but I plan to use two pieces of rectangular box section as sketched in the upper left.
Lower piece is 2.0" wide x 1.5" tall.
Upper is 1.0" wide x 1.5" tall.
Hoping those are readily available sizes.
Should be stonger than the original frame when complete.

The piece of junk diamond plate is leftover from the prior hack job.
I left it in for now as it may help a little to keep the frame from twisting with so much cut away at the top.

DSC01514.jpg

Here is the rough cut frame, this lets the T5 sit low and the engine as far back as reasonable.
DSC01510.jpg

Also took new pics of the front tower mods.
To replace lost strength I plan to add a removeable bar from the top of one tower to the other.

Near side.
DSC01508.jpg

Off side.
DSC01509.jpg

Digging into th 'Web I've found a few useful things and a LOT of conflicting opinions.
Hoping my build will help to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

After sifting through it all I've decided to shorten the steering rack.
I have a spare so if it's a mistake I can put a stocker back in.
Rather than cutting the rack and welding it back together I will just cut a piece off the passenger side and rethread the end.
Cut the tube center a matching amount and reweld over a mandrel.
Reassemble and mount the assembly at center.
May have to cut away the lower portion of the drivers turret again to clear the steering shaft.

Got my 3' tall steel sawhorses finished!
Incredibly more pleasant to work on the chassis at a reasonable height.

Got the steering rack measured verse the A arm inside pivot points.
Looks like I should take out 3".
Also looks like I will have to cut away the inside of the other Tower to clear the steering shaft after the rack is remounted.

Yanked the front suspension, had to cut one seized A arm bolt.
Once all the mods are figured out on the towers I will take them off for easier welding.

Got my mini-starter so I can see how well that clears the frame.
Now have to decide which engine I am putting in and buy a flywheel, one of the more significant expenses.
Starter seems to have two mounting positions for different diameter flywheels.
It is nice that I am able to rotate the solenoid to place it closer to the block and away from the likely header heat.

Have to decide, put the 225 back together as I know it runs strong or go with the rebuilt but unknown spec 231?
Different flywheel for each.
Whichever I go with it's getting test run on my stand before it goes into the car.

Oh - Oh, went looking for a deal on a flywheel and ended up buy one of the rare Inglese Weber intakes!
Probably not my smartest move as it just made the build a LOT more expensive or complex.
Now I either have to find a set of overpriced 3V Weber carbs or make my own F.I. bodies.

I will probably just go with the old 4V setup initially and put this together later on the other engine.
Not even sure which it is intended to fit, even fire or odd.

Now more motivated than before to see about converting Rover V8 heads to fit the V6.
I know TA Performance sell alloy heads but the price is just too high for me.

Richard, Look on Ebay for Triumph 3 cylinder throttle bodies.

MC Throttle bodies, hmmm, but will the bore spacing work?

I've found the Porsche carbs at varied prices, all high but some much better than others.
Also found F.I. replacement bodies to fit for only a little more than the carbs, plus the cost of the EFI controller and plumbing.

Going to have to concentrate on fitting what I have for now, this manifold was more expense than I had budgeted for right now.
Unless I find a cheap way out this intake system will cost as much as I have into the entire rest of the car and all mods to date!

Individual mounts with adapter.
triumphtb.jpg
triumphtb2.jpg

Individual mounts, from?

Supposed to be a budget build but it's getting out of control.

Richard, each throttle body has it's own 2 bolt mount. I would use separate Weber to that pattern adapters instead of long aluminum plates like in the pictures.

Are they from a production vehicle so reasonably prices, or 6X aftermarket units?
Link to source?

I may have figured out what I want for the front suspension.

71-73 Pinto disc brake spindles and 9.3" (10"?) vented rotors.
Trying to confirm that '74 Mustang II four-lug had 10" rotors.
71-73 spindles are smaller and lighter than the Mustang II that are all any vendors want to sell.
The steering arms are only a little longer than the GT6 arms, but since the rack sits too far forward to begin with that will actually help.
Change to the "Fast" Spitfire rack to get back any loss of input due to the longer arms, WIN!
Tubular upper and lower A arms with normal ball-joints instead of the odd Triumph lower trunnion.
Alloy calipers, or even see about keeping and adapting the original TR units as they are clearly superior to the Pinto design.

Have to find the 71-73 spindles in order to proceed.
Did confirm that the nice line drawing seen on-line is NOT of an original Ford spindle.
It's custom, based on the M-II so only a vague reference for what I need.

Richard, The throttle bodies are 99-02 Triumph Daytona motorcycle. Check on Ebay.

The manifold is paid for, now the wait for arrival.

I think I have a mount dimension drawing for the Weber bases in my manual.

Good prices on the Triumph bodies, probably need the ones from the largest available displacement bike.
Saw a post on another forum regards high RPM verse lower RPM and larger displacement use, confusing.

Have the Trick-6 mostly figured out now, except paying for it all.

Looking into adapting a Chevy V8 flywheel as they can be bought so much cheaper than Buick V6 parts.
Seems the only real difference may be the balancing.
I will need mine balanced to match the Porsche flywheel that is on it now.

Richard, Those Triumph throttle bodies have been used on Honda, Suzuki and Ford/Mazda/Jaguar V6. I think they are 40mm. Look at using the 86-87 GM Buick 3.8 FWDV6 injectors and electronics. The one with the distributor, not the 88 and later 3800. I helped with a Chevy flywheel to Buick conversion. Same bolt pattern except Chevy uses a dowel pin and Buick offsets one of the bolt holes. Chevy small flywheel is 153 tooth and slightly larger diameter than Buick 140 tooth. We had the Chevy turned down and used a Jeep/Buick 225 V6 ring gear. You would have to copy the Buick balance.

Got specs on my cam courtesy of TA Performance.

Lift.
Int. .478
Ex. .494

Duration.
Int. 270
Ex. 280

112º lobe centers.

For light stick shift car shift at 5500 RPM
Operating range 2000 - 6000 RPM.

The gal at TA Perf. described it as a mild street cam.

Seems like it should work pretty well on my car?

Engine and trans sitting in the frame, not yet mounted.
Sits dead flat in the frame, the only way to add any angle would be to raise the front.
Don't want to do that since I think It will fit under the uncut hood now.
DSC01547.jpg

Front mounts fitted to the engine.
Should be stong enough.
Bushings on the engine side so they are easy to service.
DSC01546.jpg

Now working on the frame side mounts.
Have to get the trans mount done before I can weld the frame mounts in.

Richard the Triumph Daytona throttle bodies are 44mm if milled out on the bottom from oval to round.

Richard, There are aluminum heads available for the Buick V6. Not cheap though!


http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/champion-gn1-buick-v6-14-bolt-aluminum-heads-p/cha-gn1-5400a.htm

Also from TAPerformance.com, plus alloy blocks and other goodies. They were heavy into the Buick GN. Bought the old KB franchise. (Kenne Bell)

Jim

Aware of TA Perf., but I'm only Ri¢h, not loaded with Rich$.
So I am still looking into the possibility of a "Cut & Shut" V8 to V6 head conversion.

Only looking to use engines I have on hand, not build more.
I almost just put a 2.0 Alfa in the car which would have been a LOT simpler.
It may still end up in an early Spitfire I have, but then what do I put the Spitfire engine in?

Just bought a tube bender so a 7'ish type car may be in my future.

Got more needed parts today.
'73 Pinto spindles from the self serve yard.
A bit smaller and lighter than Mustang II.
They use vented rotors and the 4x108 PCD I need for my wheels.
This conversion will give me normal ball joints top and bottom in place of the lower bronze trunnion TR used.

Also got a correct intake gasket to port match my modified single plane KB intake.

Lastly a set of bushings to fab my rear trans and diff mounts.

So now I have the pieces for a lot of work to be done.
But with the end of the year being so close, no time!

GULP!

Just spent $495.00 on an aluminum 14 Lb. flywheel from TA Performance.
Most expen$ive part yet.
Going to have to back off spending for a while and just work with what I have on hand.
Had to order the flywheel to confirm starter location so I may finish the engine and trans mounts.
Steel would have been "Only" $340.00 but hey I only have one life so I'm going for all out.

MGB260, How are you handling the increased space between throttle bodies?
They will no longer mesh one shaft end to the next.

Well Richard,
when I'm  confronted by a customer that asks a question that defies a conventional explanation.
I just inform them that that particular modification relies on the liberal application of FM.
While the layman may not understand the terminology. The tradesman will instantly recognize the referral to F...ing Magic.
Seriously though, not making fun. It would require some serious re manufacturing of the linkages. but that's what we do.
Isn't it?

Live like you mean it
Fred

$75.00 on feeBay has two sets of TR 955i bodies on the way.
Cheap enough to experiment with and resell if I cannot use them.

With a mill, lathe, EDM, and welders anything should be possible!

Trying to port match the KB-1 manifold, wish it fit as well as the Inglese does.
Will post pics when I'm further along, had to get the top of the runners welded up in order to match the ports.

Richard, Space and adapt the throttle bodies first. The linkage needs custom extended paddles to connect.Tubing spacers between the carbs. Go to a bicycle shop and get the best cables. This BMW conversion explains how he  set his up.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=279337

Read that thread.
Hoping mine will be a little simpler since it's two banks.
Also hope that it's just a bit of CNC to adapt them rather than welding as I will want to keep it as short as possible.
Might even end up with niche product adapters to sell as there are other IDA-3 conversions in need of completion.
Corvair springs to mind, maybe even some 911's?

"Triumph Daytona throttle bodies are 44mm if milled out on the bottom from oval to round".
OK, good as the Inglese manifold appears to be 46mm.

Being impatient I'm working from an unconfirmed measurement of 88mm stock spacing for the TR/MC throttle bodies.
Delivery first Monday of next month then I will confirm.

IDA-3 bore's are 94mm apart.
6mm = .2362"
So I need to shift two bodies less than 1/4" each and blend the adapter plate to 46mm from 44mm.
Seems my adapter can probably be just thick enough to be solid and still work fine since I'm going larger as I go through.

Next trick, I forget which way is best for throttle tip-in on an IR runner manifold.
Toward the inside or outside of the runner?
May not really have a choice with access to adjustment screws, injectors, etc.
Really wish the bodies were here to play with!

Also took a hard look at the rockers being used for this engine, stock stamped JUNK.
Already blew any pretense of a budget build so I'm going to see about T&D rockers.
Their factory is just up the road, maybe find some "Blem's"?
Also probably making my own drill-rod shafts.

And a question about the engine sitting level.
I'm not really aware of any issue with that and it should let me keep the hood intact.
So it seems I will need to mill the top of the KB intake flat to match.
Am I wrong here in any way?

Also working on my own oil pan mods, Moroso no longer sell their u-weld it kit.

Richard, Use 5/8" flat bar and  SBC narrow body self aligning 1.6 7/16" stud mount rockers. Look at  Hot Rod magazine 300 Buick article. Here's a guy who did the stud conversion on a Rover V8:
http://landroverforums.com/forum/engine-internal-11/stud-mount-roller-rockers-54991/

Jim, I wouldn't.

While it looks trick, the Buick boys have had trouble with that conversion. Seems it tends to snap off the bolts fastening the plate to the head, and that was with cast iron heads. Anyway why would you want to swap out a more rigid unit for a less rigid one? My guess is that the base plate is not thick enough, this method is still unproven, and may need a base at least 5/8" thick for good results.

Rich, are you having your drill rods heat treated once they are done? Might want to think about that.

Jim

I do have heat-treat company available locally.
Wondering if I should make a couple of spare sets?
BOP-R V8's should be the same only a bit longer.

I think the only issues with the stud conversion was the 3/8" studs, plus they were used in race cars with higher spring pressures. The 5/8" thick steel plate won't flex. The head rocker pedestals would  have to be milled flat on the Buick V6. I do agree that for all out racing at high RPM's the shaft system is more stable. Morana Racing uses a similar system for the Ford V6's. The Buick rockers are junk and the aftermarket are too expensive at twice the SBC prices.

Oh I definitely agree, it's a sad state of affairs.
I think the one that was breaking the bolts used a thinner base plate, but it's been awhile since I looked. As I recall though it might have been in the 3/8 to 1/2" range. Anyway the plate was not anchored securely enough for the load and was snapping off grade 8 hardware between the plate and the head. It wouldn't take a whole lot of movement to do that if it was repetitive as grade 8 is not real resistant to flex loading, but I wouldn't really trust something with a lower tensile rating but more flex in this application. Maybe a specialty aircraft grade fastener, but then I'd worry about the threads in the head. The basic problem is taking the load from 8ea. 3/8" studs through 5ea. 5/16" fasteners to the head. If you are clamping saddles around a shaft it is a lot more secure than just clamping a plate down to an interrupted flat surface. The flat bar being used did not have nearly as much torsional stiffness as a hardened round rocker shaft to start with, and then when you attach 8 lever arms to it and apply considerable pressure alternating all over the place it isn't hard to visualize twist progressing through the bar. The shaft by contrast is a bearing and does not experience any significant twisting, primarily only vertical and some side loading.

Where you have each stud anchored into the head it works fine, but in this case the bar itself has to resist any and all twisting. (Any side loading on the studs is translated into torsion down the bar.) How hefty does it have to be to do that? I don't know. Maybe the guys have it sorted out by now. I suggested 5/8" as the next logical step but it also depends on width, and could well be more than that. Until somebody has proven that it works I wouldn't risk destroying a set of heads to be the first.

Jim

KB used to make and sell the drill-rod shafts, I will see if TA Perf. has them now.
If not I will only need a few details to make my own.

As mentioned TD is just up the road from me.
I know the Buick V6 and Rover/BOP are essentially the same engine with different length heads and shafts.
So I'm sure they use the same rockers.

CNC is a nuisance to set up for just one pair of shafts so may as well do several if I do any.
I have the owner of TD's card and know that he is "In to" the sort of toys I sell.
Might be able to work a trade on a set just for myself, particularly if I will accept cosmetic "Blem" parts.

So the question for the board becomes, would there be likely interest in a "Group Buy" of TD rockers and drill rod shafts?

I would not expect to make anything on the rockers and I work cheap so the shafts would be fairly priced.
Need a likely quantity in order to negotiate a group buy from TD and a price on heat-treat.

Richard, 225 V6 uses Rover style rockers and smaller diameter shafts, 231/3.8 V6 uses Buick 350 style rockers and larger diameter shafts. The stud conversion on the Rover V8 uses 3/8" allen bolts to head and 7/16" rocker studs on 5/8" x 1 1/2" bar. Looks pretty stout to me:
rovermount2.jpg

TA Performance gets $600.00 for the rockers which are made for them by TD, but I'm unsure if that includes the shafts.
Speed shop is even more and does NOT include the shafts.

I'm leaning toward simplicity but no matter what I'm going to end up with about as much into this engine and trans as originally intended for the entire car build.

Got the starter to fit once I knocked a corner off to clear the block properly.
Not sure what they expect me to use for bolts since the outside bolt does not leave room for a wrench to turn.
Looks like socket heads or modify the mount some more.

Yeah, That's why I like the stud setup. SBC narrow stock style roller tip are around  $100 an full roller around $200. You can use self guided or adjustable guide plates like in the Rover thread.

Jim, that one does look heavier. Do you know of anyone who has been running them for any length of time? Anyone who sells the conversion? If someone can establish a successful track record it would mean more than just about any other claim. Minimum requirements would be something on the order of .500 lift and 120#.

Jim

Jim, Lanocha Racing, Morana Racing and the Classic inline aluminum head.The Rover one in the link offered to, but he wants way too much. Dave Nelson(Hot Rod article) sells aluminum  setup.The double ended studs are available from Fastenal. If you use the studs with the hex you would need to mill off the rocker stands about .340 more. Also the top part of the stud may be too long for Polylock set screws. With stock height valve covers I would use stock Chevy style lock nuts with Electrical Pal nuts for jam nuts. Pic of Tim Lanocha's motor.
lanocha.jpg

I've seen a lot of photos of that engine but never knew anyone who runs one.

I do believe it can be done, but I have also seen failures. So I still consider it a little uncertain. Which could be acceptable for racing but not so much for a street engine expected to last.

Jim

I'm in your corner Jim. (B)

The only reasonable excuse to convert to a stud mounted rocker is the cost of the parts.
The stud mount is inherently unstable and susceptible to harmonics and flex. Especially in the Rover application where a side load is present.  
That's why stud girdles exist. They band aid the weaknesses that the stud set up has.
A shaft mount system is far more stable. Read "more accurate valve timing". AKA more power.
The Rover setup suffers from poor material choices rather than poor design. For our purposes anyway.
In a stock environment they work well.
In a more highly stressed environment the weaknesses become evident.
A simple increase in shaft diameter and rockers to match. And the valvetrain becomes the last thing to worry about.

Fred
,

That's what I wanted to say.
The other big objection is that they are not adjustable. Well, unless you run solid lifters, you should be using custom pushrods anyway (about $100 from Smith Bros and there the same week) and will never have to adjust the valvetrain. One less thing to go wrong (Or 16 less.)

Jim

So I've done a first mockup of F.I. bodies.
Prefer the fuel rails on the inside as it puts the adjustment screws outside and would look cleaner.
If I angle cut the adapters I can put the intake trumpets strait up.

Richard, I agree on the fuel rails inside. Look pretty good! Do you see where you can mill the bottom round? What is the outside diameter of the top.

My calipers say 43mm for the bottom at the widest point.
Making it round will also make it thinner at the flat portions so I think 43mm is the limit.
Top is about that too.
I need a smooth transition to 46mm at the bottom while passing through the adapter.

Need to find out what sort of injectors fit too.

Also received my feeBay purchased Weiand/Smokey Yunick 4V intakes today.
Will see if one of them fits well after cleaning them up.

Well one Weiand manifold has been "Gasket Matched" to the max so useless for the current engine.
The other looks OK but needs a lot of cleaning.

Now to deal with the angled carb mounting plate since my engine sits flat.
More research and fabrication.

Got the unmolested Weiand manifold cleaned up tonight.
Need to make a new adapter plate for it so the carb will sit flat.

Also got the front suspension towers off so that I can complete welding the reinforcements in place cleanly.
Then I can strip them in my blast cabinet before painting them.

It will be nice to actually begin putting paint on parts as it's a real sign of forward progress.

Plated over the area where I had cut away the front suspension towers to clear the oil pump and steering shaft with 14 ga.
With the towers off the frame gravity actually worked for me instead of against me.
So my welds are much better.
Will now be able to clean the towers up in my blast cabinet.

Cannot paint yet as I have one more welding job to do.
At the top where the original engine mounts were I plan to add a plate to tie into a removable cross brace.

DSC01620.jpg

What they looked like before reinforcement.
Pretty sure this is stronger and it's certainly cleaner.

file.php.jpg

Hmm, looks like a slight deviation from the strait course.

Buying an only used once auto body Rotisserie locally for about what a Chinese version goes for before shipping.
Should make future rust repair a lot easier.
Easier is GOOD!

Rotisserie purchase tapped me out for a while so I've done some work with material already on hand.

Here's a pic of the passenger side first layer of frame reinforcement.

DSC01671.jpg

These tubes will be plug welded at  intervals to the sides and bottom of the chassis channel.
Also to each other.
Then a third tube goes on top for the outside edge.
Finally it will all be boxed over.

This will add some weight but it's down low and will probably be stronger than original.
Only way I could find to make a T5 fit.

So on the day after Christmas I got some sunshine to work with.
Made the most of it and finished bending my reinforcements, then drilled most of the holes for plug welding them in place.
Have to flip the frame for a few more holes but may be able to begin welding on Thursday.

DSC01672.jpg
No, not for lightening. :-)
Tubes will be welded at the sides and bottom, as well as to each other.
Once the bottom layer is in place I will trial fit the engine again before fitting the top tubes which I may have to notch in a couple of places.
Final step will be boxing it all over with sheet metal.

DSC01676.jpg
Mig welds at each inch should be pretty solid.

DSC01677.jpg
Most holes done for both sides.

DSC01674.jpg
Reinforcements loosely fitted.

With the bottom set of frame reinforcement tubes welded in I set the engine/trans in place to see what might be needed in mods for the top tube.

Looked like just a couple of dings on the passenger side would do it.
Came to the conclusion that the engine was canted down at the front a couple of degrees.
Raised the front of the engine one inch and all sorts of chassis clearance issues disappeared.

Decided it was time to see how the body fitment was going to work with my planned engine placement.
Found that the engine will be inside the current firewall about two inches at the right bank after leaving clearance for motion.
Will have to do some trimming for width too.
Steering column looks like it may be challenging, need to find some good pics of BOPR conversions as they should be very similar.

Have to make more measurements of the engine installed height.
I may just barely be able to remain under the bonnet without cutting it.
That is a real goal that may force me to put the engine back down that last inch.
Looking for a more compact air cleaner, maybe a remote unit and carb hat?
I've even had wild thoughts of converting the fresh air intake at the cowl into a ram-air system similar to what my El Camino has.
Wondering if there might be a shorter carb available?

OK, the engine is at it's final location.
1" further forward and 3/4" lower than yesterday.
Cannot go any more forward and remain behind the steering rack, cannot go any lower.

Finally lowered the body onto the chassis with the engine mocked up, in stages.
Lower, cut sheet-metal, lower some more, cut some more until it all clears.
No I do not make drawings in advance, I work it out as I go.

This is barely working out in my LHD car, RHD would not do as well.
Left engine bank barely let me retain the lower portion of the firewall that I need for the gas pedal, but I did have to cut away at the top.
Right bank sits further back and required more trimming, had to make room for the exhaust header too.
Battery will have to be relocated and I think I may be able to adapt a modern flat air filter to fit in the remains of the old battery location.
Good thing the passenger does not need as much foot room since they have no pedals to push.

Will have to reinforce the cuts as they noticeably weaken the cowl.

With just slightly thicker than stock body mounts, using a steel square from the face of the engine to the top of the scuttle, it looks like the carb will fit under the stock bonnet with NO cutting!!!!!!

From here I should be able to do my final chassis reinforcement welds, flatten a couple of spots in the tubes, and box it all in.
Have to cut and box a curve in the top of the front cross-member to clear the crank dampener.
Engine and trans mounts can be completed now too.
Firewall work will be fairly extensive but if I can bend square tube it should not be too bad.
May have to use round tube but would prefer square for ease of attaching the new trans cover.

Steering column will need a couple of joints and a support but looks like it will not be as bad as I feared.

Nothing is pretty yet but I will try to get a pic in the morning.

OK, pics.

DSC01682.jpg

DSC01683.jpg

DSC01684.jpg

Side view, top of the air cleaner should just clear since the GT-6 has a factory power bulge.
DSC01686.jpg

Just reviewed all the Spit/GT6 BOP-R build threads I could find.
Looked at those as the Buick V6 is very similar, just two cylinders shorter.
Apparently I've made this much harder by insisting on setting the engine back behind the steering rack and not cutting the bonnet.
Next few days build are welding jobs.
Complete the chassis reinforcement and tack in the engine/trans mounts.

With that finally done I will be in better shape to go after the front suspension and steering.

Richard, A few years ago as I was collecting info for my Spitfire build I came across a GT6 convertible with a Buick 215 that the owner stretched 8 inches by adding 8 inches to the frame in front of the fire wall and behind the front shock towers. I can't find the picture of it but it looked really good used a GT6 bonnet and added 8 inches to it. Attached are some pics of my Spit:
80Spitafter3smpx1024x768.jpg
80Spitafter4smpx1024x768.jpg
80Spitafter5smpx1024x768.jpg
80Spitafter7r11024x768.jpg

Frame reinforcement tubes are finally in.
Not pretty but once I welded them full length to the chassis rails internally and to each other the frame feels very solid.
Prior to welding it had a lot of similarities to a tuning fork.

Still have to dimple the upper tube on the passenger side and then weld in the plate to box it all.

I clamped the chassis to my leveled stands before doing the heavy welding in hope that it would help to prevent twisting,
Will have a look after it cools.

Extending the chassis would certainly make fitting the engine easier but would also make a long narrow wheelbase/track.
Trying to keep this looking as stock externally as possible.

Engine mounts are in!
Transmission side of the trans mount is made!

Still have to complete the chassis side of the trans mount.
Trans mount is being much more complex than the engine mounts.
The funny Camaro T5 mount angle is NOT a help.

I will also be reinforcing the engine mounts a bit.
They are not "solid" mounts but are overbuilt.
Pretty sure the engine is now a frame stiffener.

Pics in a couple more days after the final frame reinforcements are fully welded.

I'm pretty sure my GT6 has been stretched by a previous owner. I can take measurements when I get back off of this trip if you'd like

Engine and trans mounts are all in at last.
Ended up welding in the trans mount despite my desire to bolt it on.
Really would not have been able to get to the top of the bolts anyway.
Trying to keep future service in mind without having to remove the body for things like changing the clutch.

Major frame mods are almost complete.
One more set of flat strips to go on the passenger side and a notch in the front cross-member.
From there I will be able to rotate the frame for only a little final welding of mounts.

Not all of the welds are pretty but they are strong.
Thinking of using a little body sealer for cosmetics, rather than more welding?

Should b ready for pics in a couple more days.

Drivers side now boxed, the more complex passenger side is almost done.
Not pretty but the frame has never been this solid before.
There are three 1" tubes in there plus the flat stock boxing it over.

DSC01687.jpg

DSC01688.jpg


Second design for the rear trans mount.
I've tried to keep at least 1/2" clearance for anything that might move around a bit.
Used oversize mounts to make that sufficient.
Kind of pleased with my use of the original exhaust cut-out to be able to reach the trans retaining bolt.

DSC01689.jpg

Finally got the last of the passenger side boxed tonight.
Still have to grind and touch up some welds but it's a major milestone in the build.

Now I should be able to turn the frame on it's side or upside down for the remaining small welds.

With the engine and trans mounting complete I will be able to get back into the diff mounting and rear suspension.

Richard, You could replace the carb spacer with the 3/8" thick multi-layer gasket for more hood clearance. Have you done any more work on the throttle body adapters?

Not sure what will happen with my work space in the new year so I have concentrated on the chassis.
Originally it was shared to keep expense down.
Now carrying it alone which is eating up the parts budget.
Hoping the new year does better but the news is full of financial gloom and doom.

Carb will be much simpler than F.I. so I'm starting with that and hoping the I.R. setup can be done later.

Finally got the last of the useless frame brackets and reinforcements from the prior butcher job removed.
Did a little more welding so nearly done with that until I start on the rear IRS.
Have to repair the cord on my grinder but getting close to being able to clean, prime, and seam seal most of the frame.
Bought silver acrylic enamel for the frame, firewall, and under the bonnet.

What I hoped would be the last trial fit of the drive-train turns out to be the next to last?
Happily it all goes in and out of the mounts pretty easily.

Have to make one more set of frame notches to clear the oil pan under the timing cover.
Good news is that everything else clears well and I can even get the starter in and out from underneath.

Last set of front cross-member notches work fine but I may modify them a little for appearance and to be less of a dirt trap.

Now mocking up the rear diff position and mounts.

Also began to work on lower A arm mounts.
Have some pics similar to my plan I've saved from various sites which I need to review.
Recently got a spare Merkur diff for $50.00.

If rain and snow ever end I will get some updated pics.

Only recent progress has been finagling the rear brake conversion to work with the Merkur diff and axles.
Upright is going to be custom, hoping to do a billet version similar to TVR M series.
Or I can make life easier and just fabricate them in steel.

Using Merkur bolt-on rear stub axles, 4x108 which is the same as My Alfa Spider.
Focus rear rotors are a direct fit, I'm using the 10" dia.
Looking like Audi A4 aluminum calipers.
I may have to swap sides to mount them at the front since my shocks go to the rear.
Seems a reasonable answer to get functional parking brakes at under $100.00 each.
Not looking to use the Merkur Scorpio calipers due to cost, somewhat difficult to locate, and cast iron.

Need the rear brake system sorted out in order to finish the upright and A arm designs.

Not able to do much with having to move the shop.
Hate to lose the space but will save $8K a year that should be going to parts.

Did play with the MC throttle bodies a bit more.
Have decided that trying to bore the bottom round is not likely to be practical.
They are quite thin walled and would end up even thinner with very narrow sealing surfaces.
All that before I can even get them to being truly round.

Now wondering about BMW ITB's, anyone have more info on them?
Not as cheap as the MC bits, around $300.00 for a set.
Thinking they may be just a bit larger?

Got a pricing answer from TWM on their F.I. bodies.
Kind of expensive at this time, but probably the best available answer if I can swing the swag to pay for them.
If I go this route I will have more into the engine than the rest of the car, and I started with a virtually FREE engine!

"The 3 BBL bodies are being phased out but we still have a few sets available..46mm only which is perfect for you.

2 x 46mm 3bbl Bodies with Integrated Fuel Rails
TPS with plug and pins
6 x Fuel Injectors for your HP and RPM needs
$1940 Delivered to RENO".

Anyone familiar with OBX Racing ITB's?
Available on Fee-Bay for about $100.00 each.

Not sure why the prior post showed up twice.

Editing with a minor update.
Got some calipers today so I can do more work on the brakes.

Moved all my CNC stuff to a new shop so now have all the cars in the old shop.
NEVER want to do a move like this again!

Have almost completed the rear adapter to put the body on my rotisserie.
Front does not need any adapter.
Will put up a pic once the welds are finished.

Still have to set the two post lift up.
Did reinforce my frame stands so that they will be safer with the engine and trans in place.

Lost too much production time I need to make up, so probably not much to report for the couple of weeks.

Here is the nearly complete rear attachment frame.
The raised hoop bolts to the rear body mounts.
The two angle iron extensions will go to the trailing arm mounts.

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Test 2

Shop move nearly complete so time for a pic.
Still need to complete the two post lift install but the hard part is done.

Now to trial fit the engine again to see if the Weber style throttle bodies will clear the bonnet.
If they will the next task becomes saving funds for the purchase.

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Two post lift completed.
Also bought some aluminum rear uprights that use Sierra hubs.
They came with new CV boots and a set of new axles I may be able modify for my use.

Now to get some free time to actually do work on the Trick-6 again.

Playing around with my new rear uprights I got some rough numbers to try in my simulation software.
Frustrating wast of time to work with guess's.
Got better numbers and tried them in Speed-Wiz.

I can get very good numbers and avoid positive camber entirely for bump and lift, but no matter what I try I cannot seem to avoid negative camber on the out-side wheel in body roll.
Probably missing something basic, but what?
Or am I seeking the impossible for a simple upper and lower A arm setup?
So far I've mostly kept the lower arm level and played around with upper arm length, and some variation in inner pivot point heights.

Looked at my frame and the numbers I was happiest with.
Looks like a simple set of cross-mounts and reinforcement will work.
May also be able to attach the upper diff mounts to them.

A bit of refinement and I may be able to start making parts soon.

Closing in on my design.
Looks like I will be shortening the aluminum uprights I bought.
From 10" bolt to bolt vertically to 8.5".
This will also reduce the kick at the top around .75", need to fixture them for better measurements.

Still wrestling with weather or not to use equal length upper and lower arms?
Upper mount can be whatever I need, lower is pretty well dictated by the frame width, about 9" long max.
I have some pretty good numbers using equal length arms but am not getting the type of camber change I want.

Looks like the lower shock mount will have to be to the top of the outer end of the rear arm link.
Not ideal but lets me retain the original upper mount.

Speaking of the arms, my plan is bushes at the inside and rose joints for adjustment on the outer ends.
Would actually prefer bushes at both ends but the adjustable type I would need do not appear to be available in a correct size and would be a real chore to make myself.

I may have to complete the upright mods in order to take another run at the upper arm geometry.

Not sure if this was a good move or not, but I just bought another nearly complete GT6.
Turns out to be a '68 so not a Plus.
Has sat for a long time but the engine turns over and the drive-train is complete.
Probably sell-off what I cannot use.

Been practicing my CAD, now almost good enough at it to draw up my own IDA-3 to motorcycle ITB adapters.
Cheapest way out for FI bodies and the CAD-CAM will be essentially free.

Of course the MS control and other hardware is still expensive.

Richard, Glad to hear your going with the Triumph throttle bodies. Hard to beat for bang for the buck. I read on one build they used VW injectors. Are you going to slant the adapters so the TB's are straight up?

Trying to squeeze out more time to practice my CAD.

Actually got this pretty well drawn up, but in an obsolete CAD program.
Now trying to learn a much new CAD software.
And yes my intent has been to angle the mounting face so that the FI bodies are vertical.

I've also been looking into other FI TB's.
Found some that are larger, and some that are also round all the way through.
Trying to get samples of each type to design around.
BMW units are bit expensive but may have some real advantages for linkage.

Now have a Fadal 15 to make the adapters on.

Been to busy to do physical work on the Trick-6, but that has not stopped my scheming!

Some time ago I bought an MSII 3.0 and additional parts on the cheap.
Seller apologized that he could not find the ECU.
Now he has found it, and is sending it to me next week.
So the bike F.I. bodies to Inglese IDA manifold conversion is back on the active project list.
Hoping I can make a simple adapter plate that the Porsche and Corvair crowd might also like.
There is a version already available but it's a very expensive Porsche specific kit.

Got the MS II today.
So here is where I am at right now.

Engine, 3.8 Buick V6 normally aspirated.
Intake is Inglese IR meant for Weber IDA-3's.
"Budget" EFI solution is Bike EFI bodies on custom adapters.
MS II 3.0 control hooked up an EDIS 6 and coil pack.

Not sure about wide or narrow band, or if injectors will high or low impedence.
Those are items I still need to buy.

I found a NOS 5" 36-1 timing wheel on feeBay for cheap.
What I have going here should eventually yield a distributor-less ignition and I.R. EFI.

My concern for the moment is that this is a freshly built engine with no prior run time.
So I'm thinking I need to run it in on a carb and maybe even a distributor before getting into "Tuning" a custom Ign/EFI system.

I suppose the Ignition should be simple and reliable enough that I may be able start and run without the distributor.
I would prefer that as I am hoping to use a Rover front cover and oil pump.
Changing covers may mean changing pulley sets.
Once run in I should be safe to swap the intake to the IR EFI.
Hoping I can find some "Maps" that will be close but I'm not seeing a lot of IR EFI in use for reference.

ACK!
Looking for am electric water pump to make mounting the alternator easier.
Moroso kit looks a bit flaky and bulky.
Mezier would be nice if it did not have a 4X price over ANY other unit! (Rover tax?)
SBC, BBC, SBF, Mopar, right around $200 or less.
BOP, $450!

No blankety-blank way that is justified.
Once the CNC program is written it's just time and material.
Not that much more time, and not that much more material.

I may just design my own adapter, then buy a $100.00 Summit racing SBC unit for the motor and impeller.

Reluctantly moving the Trick-6 back in the pecking order as it still needs a fair amount of creative engineering to make visible progress.
I will be working on the F.I. system and electric water pump to complete the engine over summer but suspension will probably have to wait for next winter.

For the moment I am going to concentrate on the '68 El Camino/327 Muncie/Jag IRS and Alfa Romeo powered Dio Tipo.
Right after  I have the few remaining '79 Alfa Romeo Spider details sorted so that I have more than a one-ton truck to drive each day.
No or very little scratch design required for any of these.

Been unable to do much on the Trick-6 but not at a complete stop.
At $2K+ for the TWM throttle bodies I'm learning/experimenting with CAD to see about fitting the Triumph 955 throttle bodies.

Coming along fairly well, particularly as I hardly know what I am doing!

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Back from the dead?

FINALLY got "Lucky" and found a set of IDA-3's for "Only" $999.00!
40mm but they should work OK.
They are the easier answer since I no longer have my CNC machines.

Now, about jetting?

Trick-6 is not the main priority at the moment but I am pleased to get the carbs at last.
They were really the last major single expense.