We have started building a chump car using the '74.5 MGB I have in the shed. At this point Steve D, Carl Floyd, Dan B and I are involved. We have stripped down the car and have a new floor panel to weld in and Steve has a 3.1L V6-60 for it. We have Curtis' yellow stuff pads for the front brakes (2 sets, one is new) and should have a usable seat. We will use the existing rear axle and so far we do not have a transmission but I am thinking about checking the local pick-n-pull to see if I can find anything that will work. We are going to build the car much the same way we built the Roadmaster, by getting together when possible for build weekends. Our goal is to get it usable as quickly as possible and participate in one or two races per season. Chump cars run endurance races so we will all get a chance to drive.
Jim
Have at least two spare sets of rims. I assume you'll have to mount new tires several times.
One nice trick I've seen is to have multiple full sets of lug nuts. When you come in for a pit stop, zip the tires off *and leave the used nuts on the ground*. Have cool lugs in a can or something and use those to mount the new tires. After the car leaves, you can clean up the pit at your leisure and place the 'old' lugs in the can.
People don't consider how blistering hot the wheel assemblies ( including lug nuts ) will get when you're doing a lot of heavy braking.
You going to do any LeMons racing?
Thanks Todd, I expect it'll be awhile before we even need to think about wheels but definitely something to keep in mind, and the lug nut trick is also good advice.
It seems like I've heard of three sanctioning bodies for these type of cars. Chump Car, LeMons, and some reference to Tin Can racers that I haven't looked into yet. We'll consider anything that makes sense to us, and then probably do what we can afford to do. None of us are expecting to be at all aggressive about the racing schedule, so we'll just see where we are when we get the car ready. When we get there we'll be racing to win, but we aren't going to break the bank in the process.
Jim
but we aren't going to break the bank in the process.
Well, obviously I can't see what the entry fees for Chumpcar are but I know the LeMons races are kind of steep. I assume that's why Chumpcar started, there's pretty good money in this for the promoters.
LeMons requires 4-6 drivers with a $500 entry fee per driver and $75 per crew member. You can win, at most, $600, depending on class assignment. So if you show up with minimum personel, are assigned to the highest purse class AND win the race your team is $1400 in the hole just on entry fees. And you haven't paid for fuel / tires / car / safety equipment / race licenses ( used to require SCCA or similar ) / hotel rooms / etc.
As a thumbnail figure I'd probably budget 5k out of pocket for one race. If you can keep the car in one piece, some of that would be depreciated for each subsequent race.
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/prices-rules#
Not trying to dissuade you as it looks like a blast. Just trying to give you a good idea of what the up front monetary expenses look like.
LeMons was doing this first ( articles for magazine cars like Car and Driver and Road and Track go back over a decade ) and appears to be the most professional.
When we get there we'll be racing to win
That's fine and all, but don't be too blatant about that with the promoters or during the race. In race, you're going to want to play up some sort of goofy gimmick AND you're going to NOT want to get too far ahead of the field. LeMons has a 'rule' where they can choose a car *at their whim* in the middle of the race and crush it. They also have a post race $500 claim rule. These rules exist purely to prevent people from showing up with super fast cars and blowing the doors off of everybody.
Circle track racing would be good practice for dealing with traffic. Start all practice races from the back of the field to maximize your passing opportunities.
Thanks for the advice Todd. The way I figure it, if we win we win and if we don't we won't, since we won't be the only ones trying to take the flag. But, we do plan to race and aim to win. From what you say the Chump Cars sounds like the better option for us. We aren't that much into "goofy" and the costs of LeMons sounds considerably higher, as well as some fairly severe sanctions. Are you sure those races aren't being done by a tribe of orangutans? I get the vision of them stopping the race in the middle and a bunch of monkeys (ie drivers and crews) attacking the offending car with boulders (or maybe helmets) ;-) We may be pretty irreverent at times, OK maybe always, but I think we're slightly more serious than that.
It's been awhile since I looked at the rules so I'm not exactly up to date. As we progress I'll have to remedy that. But as I recall CC is a "claimer" type race where the winning car can be bought. I know there are wrinkles, and much use is made of the "handicap" rule where laps are added for various reasons. In the end, winning doesn't really buy you much, but you want to be competitive of course. Anyway I'm also a veteran of the 24 hours of Nelson Ledges, where we slept on the ground behind the pits, so I know there are ways to cut the costs to the bone if desired.
Jim
Hanh. For some reason when I went looking for ChumpCar rules before I went to a page that was requiring registration.
Here are the 2014 rules:
http://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/2014-2016chumpcar-rules.pdf
Some interesting bits I'm getting from skimming through:
1 - ChumpCar 'purses' are paid what amounts to store currency. This currency has a one year expiry.
2 - If you win race A and compete next at race C, you are assessed a lap penalty prior to race C equal to your victory margin in race A. So you still want to *not* run off and leave everybody in the dust.
3 - On the plus side, you get a free Optima battery
4 - entry fees are a bit cheaper, running from $300 for single driver and car in a sprint event up to $1200 for min 4 drivers and car in races over 14 hours. additional drivers are $50 per.
I guess if there aren't any photos it didn't happen, so:
Dec2013008.JPG
Steve working on the V-6 that's going in the car later on
Dec2013009.JPG
Me working on the floor which is now all stitch welded in on the top side
Dec2013013.JPG
Dec2013012.JPG
Can't say when we'll be working on it again, the world is a snowball from my perspective right now. I took it out to the shed after finishing up the welds earlier today.
The next big thing we need to do is get a transmission package for it. For now any T5 should work and we're checking the pick-n-pull yards we're familiar with. If anyone has a tranny stuck under the bench and they want to be in on this project that would make a good donation.
Jim
V6 or V8 tranny?
I may have a line on a T-5. Not sure yet, but I'm betting it will be a V6 T-5.
We don't much care which one at this point Carl. Just something to make it move under it's own power and if we want to later we can swap to something better if we need to. Not a whole lot of concern about standing starts anyway.
Dan's been asking about a winter gathering this year, might be a good chance to do a few things if we do.
Jim
TVR Sagaris beating each other up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBHMqYDGHrQ
Winstanley's car is obviously slower, but what was his specific mistake that allowed the pass?
Hoods does make some outside passes but only on blatantly slower lap cars. i'd have liked to see him try to make a real effort to set Winstanley up properly from the outside on a couple of those corners.
looks to be the Coastal Circuit:
http://www.angleseycircuit.com/information/circuit-map
Looked to me like he let him by.
In addition to the transmission we will need everything from the crank back. Bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and either external slave and clutch fork or htob.
Jim
Looked to me like he let him by.
Effectually, yes.
But there was a two part driving error which enabled Hoods to drive by. You'll notice that earlier, Winstanley was cutting across Hoods' nose very aggressively. There were several corners where Hoods was almost completely alongside Winstanley AND on the inside of the turn in the braking zone and Winstanley used his better, wider corner entry to carry more speed in and then chop Hoods nose. He probably intimidated Hoods into not getting into the throttle like he normally would but I'd want to compare instrument traces before I made that a definitive assertion. Most road racey guys are finicky like that.
1 - Winstanley cleared the lap car too early before the corner ( as fast as his car would permit him too, sometimes slower is better ). He exacerbated this by slowing for the corner as he moved out.
2 - Winstanley moved to the right, in front of the lap car, in order to get a better arc into the left hand corner. This effectually allowed Hoods a straight line into the corner, which is worse for corner speed but which he used to establish a dominant position ( he was probably nose in front of Winstanley ). Then Hoods carried his line all the way to grass on corner exit, forcing Winstanley to back out.
The lap car IS NOT the threat. Winstanley forgot this and it cost him the lead and the win.
The better answer would have been to slow and just barely clear the lap car by corner entry. Then, hammer through the corner as fast as you can and swing your line all the way out to the grass on corner exit ( max speed ). The lap car isn't going to be there for you and 2nd is going to have his corner screwed up because he's going to be pinned beside the lap car.
Qualifying is the wide entry, perfect apex game. Which isn't useless in a race, but is very nearly so when actually contending for a position. How are you going to cut a perfect line into the corner if the slower guy in front of you is already taking that perfect line? You can't pass a guy if you're under his rear deck lid. You can wreck him from there, but you can't 'pass' him.
Racing is *more about positioning*. Racing is about establishing your own position on the track, taking away the other driver's line and putting him in positions that he is uncomfortable with. Note that this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with touching his car. Although a Chumpcar race is going to have a lot more to do with circle track mentality ( rubbin is racin ) than it is with the normal, "oh my God, don't touch my pristine sheet metal" attitude of an SCCA road racer.
The basic rule of thumb for side-to-side contact is, if the car in front gets turned across your nose, you were wrong. This means that your front tire needs to be near the driver door if the guy on the outside comes down on you.
People say Schumacher was an a-hole. Which, he often was. Sometimes even self destructive and stupid ( he caused a wreck and destroyed his car under yellow while leading Monza once because he idiotically brake checked 2nd place while following the safety car ). What they don't understand is that he was also a circle track mentality in a road racing world. He was constantly putting his car in a position which scared the bejeezus *out of the guys who were next too him*.
I see your point Todd, and all of this is very good to know going into this thing. I don't have the track time to understand these nuances the way a few of the guys do, and I come from a very different environment than most. Not even sure how exactly to describe it but I'll try. Think of a world where the road is wide open except for a certain number of slow cars, often clustered behind semis, a few reasonably fast drivers every now and then, no law enforcement, almost all hills and curves, straights are defined as any transition between one curve and the next, passing zones are any place long enough to pass, "rubbing" is frowned upon but in some situations inevitable, the goal is shortest eta, and it is an open course where the same curve is seen maybe once a month. I think Carl shared this environment, and maybe a few others. I'm not saying what we did while we learned to drive was right, it certainly wasn't. But I'm just giving you the background. Combine that with multi-lane working through the pack and you get the basic idea. To say it was non-competitive would be to misunderstand the situation, and it was far less controlled than a closed course. Most of us from those crazy old days in the mountains have mellowed considerably but it's sort of like riding a bicycle, the old muscle memories and nearly automatic reactions don't just go away. In that environment the perfect line through a corner is the one that gets you through it the quickest *this particular time* and traffic will always change it. Who would think that trailing throttle oversteer would be the quickest way around a hairpin? But if you have the balls it sure can be, at least under some conditions.
I doubt I'll have too much trouble converting that experience to chump car driving personally, but I have no desire to make enemies in the process and my desire to win is not an all overpowering one I don't think. I also don't expect our team to be at the top of the competition going in and we won't be able to make more than a very few races a season, but maybe, just maybe we can give the guys a good run for the money when we do show up. (What money, right?) But from your example it seems obvious that background is sure to play a big part. Right now as drivers I think we have five of us as potentials. Me, Steve D, Carl, Dan B, and Dave B. Carl is undoubtedly going to be the smoothest driver, and likely the fastest but we'll see. I will be the hardest on equipment without a doubt. Dan and Steve will be good reliable and competitive drivers. Dave is young and trainable with inherited skills. I think we'd make a pretty good team, and that should be enough of us to get through a race. Obviously we'll have to learn from each other as we go along.
What I see from your analysis of the video are two schools of thought on cornering. One emphasizes the theoretical ideal line through a corner and is undoubtedly going to pay off on an open track, such as in qualifying. The other emphasizes the "flow" through the corner which is going to pay off through traffic. Oddly enough, guiding whitewater rafts is instructive here. The fastest way down a river is to stay out of the eddies, which in water are very obvious and there are multiple routes some of which are incrementally faster than others. Having a feel for which is faster and when will give a shorter overall trip time. And of course on the river are many other rafts. Which you are allowed to bump, as well as rocks. Sometimes the fastest way down the rapids includes certain elements of bumping and even spinning, which clearly have no analog in racing under normal conditions. But if it does turn out that somebody likes to bump it clearly won't be something new to me.
But the conclusion seems to be that for qualifying the first school of thought is going to result in a better lap time unless too much time is spent getting the car into the preferred line. Personally, I would have never even considered drastically changing the exit line in order to line up perfectly for the next curve but who knows, there could be some advantage. As I see it, as long as I can keep the car under control while braking and be at the right attitude at the apex, other than that the entry line isn't as critical as acceleration and braking time and certainly isn't worth easing up on either of those for. In traffic I don't think there's any doubt that the second school of thought pretty much rules completely.
Jim
Hey Jim,
Winning is great. Fun is better!
I think that you guys are going to experience both.
I have a V6 trans that you can have.
It's noisy in every gear but 4th so I guess it's a bad counter shaft bearing.
It's a little pricey to ship but if you run out of options I'll rebearing it and send it on over.
Hope Santa found your chimney.
And it looks like another year dealt with.
Cheers
Fred
Hey Fred, that sounds great! Pieces coming together. I'd be more than happy to pay the shipping plus whatever parts you want to put in it. Is it the V8 or V6 T-5? Not that I'm being choosy, either one is better than what we have now.
That leaves bell, flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing to get the drivetrain sorted. Plus a radiator of some sort. Seems like a reasonable list.
Jim
DiDueColpi
Winning is great. Fun is better!
And winning while having fun is best. ;-P
Which is what I'm trying to point y'all too. I've started at the front and spent 15 laps running by myself and been bored out of my mind, even though I won. And I've started dead last and finished 3rd and come off the track going, "Hot damn, HOT DAMN! Can we do this again next week?"
Starting at the front and trying to hold on by your fingernails against cars that are clearly faster than you can be done ... but it's not very satisfying. Figuring out how to slice and dice the pack, that's where your blood gets moving. Attack is more emotionally satisfying than defense.
BlownMGB-V8
What I see from your analysis
I'm just trying to give you guys a little bit of a heads up on modes of thought and ways of looking at things that are fairly simple but which I observe to be rare even at the highest levels of the sport.
For instance, most people are baffled by Danica's lack of success. I say that I've never once in her career seen her demonstrate the kind of track/traffic awareness that I'm talking about. In fact, when it comes time to make a 'traffic' decision she almost always makes the wrong choice ( last year was the very first time that she would bump draft on the super speedways ). The fact that most of the commentors fail to realize / refuse to comment on what is going on even though some of them are former pros ... sigh.
This is not limited to Danica of course, Ricky Carmichael was even less impressive in his attempt to convert to cars and Dario didn't last even a full season in his attempt at Cup. Pastrana looked good when he first came in but has started looking bad. I suspect that Pastrana has/had good innate traffic skills but is now being forced to do his own suspension setup, at which he has no expertise, and that this has started a negative cycle in the team/driver dynamics.
To short list the most basic principles -
1 - Stay as calm as possible.
There's going to be a massive adrenaline dump ( competition heart rate for Cup drivers is ~150 bpm for +4 hours, F1 can be north of 170 ) and the only way to get used to dealing with that is ... by dealing with that. Hopefully, by being aware of what your body is doing you won't lose your mind quite so easily. You guys with whitewater experience will have a definite head start here.
2 - Analyze everything.
Racing is a *decision making* process. Those who make *good* decisions will tend to outperform those who are simply aggressive. Aggression has a purpose, a time and a place but if it doesn't serve your ANALYSIS you're probably wasting time and damaging equipment for no good reason. I have walled people ... and I have refrained from walling people ( who had been payed cash money to take me out of the race and wreck my car ) because it was the last lap, I was in the lead and I could dispose of the problem lap car *while retaining the lead*. Best revenge is the trophy, destroying their car is far and away the second choice.
3 - Be smooth
Smooveness is very important. *ROLL* into the throttle when coming up on the straight. Try not to jump on the brake pedal during corner entry. Keep steering inputs as minimal as possible. Concentrating on smoothness will help with #1. Work on doing things smoothly THEN work on doing things quickly.
4 - Check instruments at least once per lap
Same place, every lap, usually on the long straight. You can check them more often but don't check them less often. It can be the difference between a short day at the races and a short day at the races PLUS an engine fire and a rod out the side of the block.
5 - Reserve grip / speed is a thing
IF you are behind a slower car THEN ( excepting mountain motor situations like a 1970 Camaro vs a Mini ) you are taking the corner at LESS than your max side loading. How can you redeploy this additional cornering capacity to your advantage? Can you run a wider line or a later apex? Do you actually need to back up from the car in front in order to get your max corner entry and apex speeds so you can use that to slingshot him on the straight?
6 - Maintain concentration
Some drivers, especially in long races, have real problems with zoning out. This was actually a problem Dario had and was why I expected him to fail at NASCAR. If you can't keep your eyes open for a 200 lap IndyCar race ... how the hell are you going to stay awake for the Coca-Cola 600 ( which as recently as 2005 went +5 hrs )?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJTjRs-rI
Oh yeah, in caution situations it's a good idea to OFFSET one lane from the car in front of you. There's no requirement for the field to single file, one lane, you just aren't allowed to PASS. That way even if the guy behind you goes space cadet and rear ends you, at least you're not getting submarined under the car in front of you.
All good advice Todd and appreciated. I've been accused of not reading the rulebook and I'll confess, it's been awhile and I should brush up on it. I intend to do just that but not today. Will the car, as we are building it, be competitive? Maybe not. Maybe lap penalties for creative thinking will put us out of the winner's circle. Will it be faster than a significant percentage of the cars in the field? Very possibly, although a tired 2.8L engine is less than optimum so our first year we will have to just concentrate on learning how to compete most effectively. The goal that first year is to maximize fun and learning opportunities. Beyond that we can decide just how far we are willing to go to win. Just like in a high school relay track team, some drivers will be faster than others so we will do a lot of sharing and comparing during those first races. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses, where one may be super smooth, another may be the first to foresee any potential opening, and another may be finely in tune with the vibrations of the car and to some extent at least, these things can be taught. As has been mentioned it is vital that we not break the car. Can't win if you can't race. I have no doubt that the needed competitive urge will take care of itself.
I've been told by a competent Chump car builder that our approach is solid. That's enough for me to go on at this point, at least until we have the drivetrain in the car. Steve has found us a transmission so we're planning to get together in early March and get that part done. Then we can start looking at the details.
Jim
Update:
We had intended to work on the Chump car this last weekend, but Dan had a sudden family scheduling conflict (we all understand those, right?) Carl's chiropractor absolutely demanded he stay at home, and Steve and I decided it would be best to fix the issues on the Roadmaster first, so other than sorting parts little was done here. But we did make a bit of progress on the parts.
Steve had scrounged some parts from a junkyard buddy that came off a Camaro. A 4 speed tranny, flywheel, bellhousing, clutch, PP etc. He figured we wouldn't need OD in a race car and I'm inclined to agree. Carl thought we might, but we really won't know until it's driveable.
Fred, thanks for the reminder about the V6-T5 tranny you have, I had forgotten. I will mention it to Carl. It is a most generous offer that we really should accept.
Anyway, it looks like we should acquire an S10 flywheel, bellhousing, clutch fork, and flywheel bolts. Plus the clutch disc we have doesn't mate with the splines on the 4 speed. Does the S-10 clutch fork compensate for the thinner flywheel? That'd be my guess. I kinda like the idea of racing this cheap and common V6 engine. Replacements are about $175 at the local pick-n-pull.
Rummaging about yesterday I ran across the spare set of engine mount cushions I'd bought so we have those and front mounts for the V6 should be simple and easy.
It was pretty decent weather, about as good as you could ask for this time of year. So it was a good way to kick off spring. We'll have to schedule the next weekend at everyone's convenience. My hope is to have the Roadmaster back out on tour by then and my car in the running and tuning stage so that the only distraction from the Chump car will be Dan's TR7/1UZ conversion. Definitely by then it will be warmer. You guys let me know what weekend might work for you. I know Carl's got baseball and Dan's got swim meets but see what your schedules allow. The daughters come first, they won't be with you much longer. Chump cars will probably be around for awhile and if not, there will be something else.
We'll have to sort out what we're going to do in the way of drivers eventually. Steve isn't interested in competition but enjoys the rest of the program, and with a 12 hour race there's room for more than we have lined up at this point. I know personal gear is expensive, but back when I crewed for the Just BMW 2002 team at the 24 hours of Nelson Ledges there was a driver who wore a USAF flight suit, which was nomex and I think he said he bought it surplus for about $80. Probably be twice that now but still half what a regular driving suit would cost. I don't mind wearing OD, especially in a Chump car race.
Jim
If you decide on Fred's trans, I *may* be able to get a load going out in his direction. I know I can get stuff going out through Cinci. So I could string a couple of trips together and not have it be out of my way too much.
Todd, that'd be great if you could manage something like that. There's no doubt that under those conditions we'd be crazy to turn it down.
Jim
Alright. Well, you guys need to tell me what city Fred lives in. I know there's a load on the board right now for Kelowna ( which isn't really west 'coast' ). Anything near Vancouver will probably be pretty easy to get.
Crap, I was going to say that I don't often see anything to the northern BC coast but we've got a load for Terrace, BC right now.
Abbotsford B.C. guys.
about 60 miles east of Vancouver.
And the trans is ready to go?
Hey Todd,
Still playing with it.
When do you plan to be in the area?
I can get off my butt and speed it up.
Cheers
Fred
I can't actually dispatch for Chilliwack or Terrace right now. We have too many high priority loads in front of them.
Probably ( if I get it ) I can dispatch to you in a week or two.
No prob.
Thanks Todd.
Oh, it's an open bed 1 ton. So we'll probably want to have the trans double or triple bagged with Hefties and duct tape for weather. An old tire would work well for cushioning/mounting.
I've got straps and bungees.
You guys are great!
Jim
Fred, could you check your private messages?
This weekend Steve, Dan, and Dave (B) came by to work on the Chump car. We started with a junkyard run to the local pick-n-pull where we rolled an S10 up on it's side and took the starter, bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, clutch fork, throwout bearing, bellhousing dust cover, and center fitting for the oil filter mount. Which cost us all of about $65. We left the S10 WC T-5 which would have cost us $150 because of the tailshaft and gearing.
Back at the Lab, Dave and Steve finished stripping the car while I put worked on mating the engine and transmission and Dan helped out wherever he was needed while also working on his TR7/Lexus swap, and by the time we finished we had the engine/tranny (4 speed) sitting in the car with a strap holding up the tailshaft and I have a couple of photos to prove it:
Engine.JPG
Engine1.JPG
Sorry I couldn't be there to help. On the bright side, Piper's baseball team did knock off the only undefeated team left. :)
Cool!
Alright, dispatching for Abbotsford, will probably be there Monday.
Fred, could you check your pm's?
Thursday evening Todd came by with the transmission, I have some photos:
IMG_0002.JPG
IMG_0004.JPG
IMG_0005.JPG
Don't know if the numbers are visible in the shots.
Anyway, I stood it up on end in case any water got in during transit but it didn't look like any drained out.
Thanks again to both Fred and Bob... uh, I mean Todd. That's a wonderful thing you guys did. Maybe we can put your names on the race car or something! :-)
Jim
We can put Fred Bobby on the door as driver. :)
We can put Fred Bobby on the door as driver. :)
That needs to be "Freddy Bobby" if you're making a Talladega Nights reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_bobby
Which, come to think of it, might be a good theme for the car.
Just, uh, don't be kissing any French drivers on the mouth. 'Kay?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsJdAu9-q5w&t=55s
Maybe we name the car Freddy Bobby.
Jim
Oops, sorry. Yeah, that's what I meant. I couldn't actually torture myself to watch the movie.
We're back at working on the car, Steve got here yesterday afternoon. We put it on the lift, pulled the front suspension and swapped in the early crossmember and have been putting all that back together. A couple of interesting points. The inner fenders have to be dimpled up maybe 1/4" above the shocks. The front crossmember bolts have to be swapped out for shorter ones, or as we did, turn them down and cut new threads. The steering pinion gets shortened 1-7/16". Nothing special there but we did find dust in the steering rack, not a nice thing to see. The assembly will eventually have to be replaced.
I think we'll put the new brake pads on and finish that up this morning, then move on to the engine and tranny mounts. We installed my old set of Huffaker -1" front springs so the front end will come down noticeably. There is no front swaybar but Steve has a 7/8" bar at home. I think we will split the rear bar and use it for traction control, and then we'll have to decide how to deal with lowering the rear. Maybe a main leaf with reversed eyes will do the trick. We will also bolt up the T5 before the engine goes back in, and if we manage, we might finish up the bottom welds on the driver's floor.
I'll try to get some photos today.
Jim
This weekend we swapped in an early front crossmember, which also involved shortening and rethreading the two rear bolts plus shortening the rack pinion 1-7/16", installed the T5 plus a new S10 slave cylinder, positioned the shifter at the rear shifter hole position which required liberal application of a BFH th the tunnel for bell bolt clearance, made up motor mounts and have the damper maybe 3/4" off the crossmember. Photos below.
IMG_0002.JPG
There is a bit more work on the mounts but you can see how it will go. The driver's side riser will be boxed, the other left open for a pass through.
IMG_0003.JPG
With the Huffaker -1" competition springs the front will sit about 2" lower than the stock '74-1/2. Thinking about having the rear springs de-arched and adding a leaf.
IMG_0004.JPG
Steering shaft splice.
IMG_0005.JPG
Exhaust port clearance is a little tight here. We are considering cast manifolds.
IMG_0006.JPG
Jim
you're planning on taking a stagger tape or gauge, right?
Could be. If I knew what it was...
Jim
Do they really measure tire stagger for a road course car running street tires? I thought it was only used with racing slicks & oval tracks.
Could be. If I knew what it was...
Stagger is difference in tire dia between the left and right side. You can use a tailor's tape or US race shops sell special "tire tapes" OR sliding gauges demarcated in ( inches / pi ).
http://racecareng.com/site/catalog-viewer?cat=65&loadord=15
Stagger gauges are pretty hard to mishandle. Stagger TAPE measurements, on the other hand, should always be done by the same crewman with attention to repeatable procedure. It's very easy to induce variations in tape measurement.
It would be part of your post-pit tire analysis. Tire pressures and temps should be taken as soon as possible after the tires come off the car. Tread wear and stagger could wait a little bit.
I thought it was only used with racing slicks & oval tracks.
That was originally my thought as well. I've reconsidered though. In a 24hr race, you might burn tire sets bald. The delta in wear between L and R could be not inconsiderable by the end of the run.
It's not a bad idea, it'd give us something to do during those long mandatory pit stops.
Jim
Another Pit Stop coming up this weekend. Steve gets here Thursday afternoon, Dan will be here Friday evening. We will be fitting the radiator, finishing up the motor mounts, and perhaps installing the driveshaft and exhaust manifolds among other things. Matt will be here over the weekend and Dave will come over when he is free. Carl, and Scott, if either of you guys can make it that'd be great, and we'll not turn away any others who want to stop by.
As well as working on the racer, we will be trying to get Dan's TR7/1UZ conversion to where it can be fired up and driven if we can by the time he leaves on Tuesday.
My car is driveable but still needs wiring done on the transmission controller and a paddle shifter built. I don't expect to spend any time on that, but if I do get the bottom connectors done by then and I like the way it is acting I may take it down the street a time or two.
Jim
Here's a trick I missed that we could do.
(http://www.britishracecar.com/MikeKusch-MGB/MikeKusch-MG-MGB-DH.jpg)
(http://www.britishracecar.com/MikeKusch-MGB/MikeKusch-MG-MGB-DF.jpg)
That rear suspension has a number of what you might call creative solutions and a good bit of out-of-the-box thinking. I love to see those sort of solutions, innovations in suspension design tend to come slowly. I'm not real sure at this point exactly which solution we will use in lowering the car but it sure is nice to have options.
Jim
QuoteTrying to build it to be approved for ChumpCar/Lemons racing.
Here's the gist of it.
At minimum, cage must include: Full front and rear hoop, appropriately braced to each other along the roofline (halo type and side/downbar type are also acceptable); two driver-side door bars (X-design is acceptable); appropriate main-hoop backstays with no bends, located as close to 45 degrees from horizontal as practical; one main-hoop diagonal; appropriate spreader plates and gussets; complete 360-degree welds at all joints, including all car-to-cage joints. Each major loadbearing member must be formed from a single, continuous tube. On all sides, all drivers' helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage.
I know I'm probably going to need to make a few modifications, but I wanted to avoid starting completely from scratch.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?41,2936449
We installed the driveshaft, re-packed the wheel bearings, cleaned up the brake rotors, got the calipers ready to install, put in the rear flex line, installed rear slave cylinders, plumbed the clutch hydraulics and bled the lines and even routed a bleeder line up close to the master. (In theory we could bleed the slave back into the master but at this point the fluid isn't clean enough for that.) We also shortened and installed the shifter, installed a water pump and carb, plumbed the fuel line and installed the valve covers. We decided to go with a stock MGB seat because the APC seat we have is just too big, sits too high, and we lose all front/rear adjustment. We got radiator hoses but haven't mounted the radiator yet so those weren't installed.
We need the front engine pulleys (2.8L), could use an MGB radiator support (I have no idea where the original one might have gone) and some sort of an air cleaner for the odd 2 bbl carb that was used on the 2.8, also an exhaust manifold for the driver's side. I expect we will have to cut and weld a stock one but we need a good starting point, which would be a stock rear dump manifold.
We have yet to lower the rear suspension also but we found a set of front swaybar links and reinforced them. We do not however, have the front lower control arm links that they attach to. The '74.5 had no swaybar and therefore used the plain links without the reinforcing plate and mounting hole. My last set went in modified form to Raliegh to be put on the MG-Roadmaster so I don't have any more of them. Took me quite awhile to figure out where the last pair had gone.
We also have a 13" TR7 steering wheel we are considering using, though it will require some sort of an adapter. The leather is stripped off but we are thinking of wrapping it with baseball bat grip wrap. Obviously open to an easier solution as I'm not seriously keen on more custom machine work at the moment.
All in all a good weekend. What doesn't really get conveyed by these reports is the sense of comraderie and brotherhood shared in these sessions, but it was without any doubt a bonding experience, and a good one.
Jim
Next work weekend, post ahead of time. Maybe I can make it down.
QuoteWe do not however, have the front lower control arm links that they attach to.
A set of negative camber lower A-arms would be nice!
I have a line on a set of negative camber lower A-arms with V8 bushings already installed.
Great Carl, those should work fine. We can try them and see how well we like them, and it'll be a good opportunity to evaluate them anyway, this being an endurance event. I know a lot of owners have considered using them.
I think Steve has a stock seat we can use.
We need to decide on how we are going to lower the rear suspension but I'm inclined to just try flipping the main leaf of the spring pack and see what that does before moving on to something more difficult. Maybe de-arch it if we need to, or even reverse the arch. I'm not sure how much of that it'll take without breaking, but I do know I've seen leaf springs badly bent up in junkyards so we might be OK.
Once we have pulleys we can make the alternator mount, then once we install the brake flex lines and bleed the brakes we should be about ready to run. Oh yes, we need another exhaust manifold first so we can hook uo the exhaust.
I'm going to try to schedule a weekend between now and June 15 to give Dan a chance to get his wiring done. I don't know if you guys will be able to make another trip up here that soon, but let me know.
Jim
I still have my original seats if you want.
I really think this leaf spring mod & restoring to the CB leaf spring mounts will do all we need for now.
Bent Leaf Spring
(http://www.britishracecar.com/MikeKusch-MGB/MikeKusch-MG-MGB-DH.jpg)
Stock
RBLeafSpringFrontMount.JPG
Modified
LeafSpringFrontMountMod1.JPG
LeafSpringFrontMountMod2.JPG
Stock
RBLeafSpringShackleMount.JPG
Modified
RearShackleMod5.JPG
RearShackleMod3.JPG
RearShackleMod7.JPG
RearShackleMod4.JPG
Tube is 1 1/16" mild steel pipe.
Finished raised shackle
RearShackleMod6.JPG
Stock
RBBumpStop.JPG
RBBumpStop2.JPG
Modified
BumpStopMod5.JPG
BumpStopMod3.JPG
Finished bumpstop
BumpStopMod6.JPG
BumpStopMod7.JPG
Q.E.D. ;)
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?1,1329892,page=4
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?1,2954791
More food for thought.
(http://www.britishracecar.com/SimonBriggs-MGB/SimonBriggs-MGB-DG.jpg)
Any more recent progress?
Some. Carl brought a set of spare leaf springs up when he came to pick up his new motorcycle, I found the radiator support panel hanging on a nail, we have 2 or 3 swaybars we can try on the rear using that last method Carl found, and also in connection with the motorcycle Carl discovered that I have a fairly close neighbor who was recently involved in Chump racing (they've switched to WRL) and can give some advice. We won't be working on it again until after the BritishV8 meet.
We need to find out if a dedicated racing seat is needed, I imagine Todd would know, and if so we may have to do some cutting to make one fit. Also he has tubing benders for the roll cage that I think he would let us borrow.
Jim
All I did was buy another motorcycle that I needed about as much as another hole in my head. My only consolation is that it is not near the Widowmaker as Fred's new bike. ;)
Honda9192005.jpg
Yeh,
The lovely Lynne really isn't happy about that one.
I wouldn't last long on yours, Fred. Mine rode me to church a few weeks ago at 124.
Apparently I've used all the forgiveness vs permission vouchers that I'm ever going to own.
So I built her this......
GetAttachment.jpg
A new kitchen seems to help with the marital harmony.
Wait a minute Fred, wasn't that Widowmaker supposed to be some sort of a present from her? What were you supposed to do, say no? (I knew it was too good to be true. I'll never understand female illogic.)
Er... widowmaker,... free gift,... Nah. Of course not. Must have been leverage for the kitchen.
Jim
very nice kitchen!
I once split the case on my MX bike in the kitchen in my apt. in CA. Too hot outside. The apartment reeked of gear oil for weeks. :)
Definitely not a gift from the Lovely Lynne Jim.
Everything is fine now, but in retrospect. I probably shouldn't have made that purchase.
The marital turmoil wasn't worth it.
And the new kitchen was on the list anyway.
Been with this chick 32 years now, and I still like her.
Besides, it's too much work to train another one.
Tried for 25 years, never could get mine trained. Just as hard headed & stubborn as I am. :)
2015 Chump Car Rules
https://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/2015ChumpCarBCCR.pdf
Tech Inspection Sheet
https://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/ChumpCarTechSheetRev15-A1.pdf
Non-OEM Parts Tech Sheet
https://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/ChumpCarSwapFormRev15-A1.pdf
So we either need to make the racing seat fit or find something that does. No OEM seat. (Sorry Steve.)
Carl, thanks for looking that stuff up and posting it. Now we just need to read it. (Yuck.)
Jim
Max read it. Said we are going about it all wrong with that V6 engine. ;)
Well of course he did. He'd have us running the 1800. But last time I looked the swap to the V6 carries no real penalty.
Jim
I thought we would be hit with penalty laps. I will research it some more.
Penalties for going over $500
http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/topic/8876-the-2014-tech-penalty-lap-posting-procedure/
Lemons vs Chumpcar
http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2013/so-you-want-to-race-cheap-cars-which-series-do-you-choose/
Yeah, I think the dollar amount for adding the V6 was pretty minimal, like $50 or so. The MGB itself has no added value, so I think we have plenty of leeway.
Jim
That would be great. I would much prefer not to run the stock engine. :)
ChumpCar Forum
http://forum.chumpcar.com/
Thanks Carl. I've browsed over there and have looked at it a bit, lots of info to digest. Good find.
Jim
So, I know I've been lax about reporting back on last weekend's Chump Car activity, a week late and whatnot, but it's been an extremely busy and hectic week so I feel I can be excused. I intend to give a pretty full report, along with some good pictures. That may take me several posts over the next couple of days so bear with me on this if you will.
Steve DeGroat (now our official Crew Chief), Carl Floyd (hot shoe extraordinaire) and Dave Blackwood came and worked on the car, along with a guest appearance by Matt Blackwood (who is currently dedicating his life to college studies and online gaming). We got some good work done.
To hit the highlights, prior to the weekend I was running a thread on the Chump Cars forum to get some insight into the rules and regs and raised a few questions that we will continue to seek answers on. Then Steve showed up and we de-arched the rear springs, installed the front brakes and made a junkyard run. Then Carl and Dave arrived and we tore into the doors and the rest of the braking system as well as refining our planned configuration of the car, things like selecting a swaybar, deciding on suspension bushings, and so forth.
Here is Steve in his now official role as Crew Chief:
IMG_0084.JPG
Carl and Steve bleeding the brakes:
IMG_0068.JPG
IMG_0071.JPG
And Dave removing the skins from the doors:
IMG_0063.JPG
More photos to follow. Dave removed the frame and sideguard beams from the doors and then he and Carl tacked them into place on the body. This will give us some elbow room for when we build the roll cage. We also made some close fitting patches from the left over door frames to plug the speaker cutout holes in the rear bulkhead and those came out nice. We now have both exhaust manifolds in place and one down tube, with the second ready to be fitted. Both manifolds had the outlet cut off, rotated and welded back on to reposition the down tube. We used nickel stick electrode for the first one but then just used the MIG welder on the second and had no trouble with cracking the second time around. It seems a viable approach, we will see how well it stands up to heat cycling. Unfortunately the master cylinder turned out to be defective and will have to be replaced before we have brakes.
On the rear springs we used a novel approach. After disassembly we re-stacked the leafs with the main leaf upside down. This meant we had to cut about 1-1/2" off each end of the second leaf to clear the eyes but with the main leaf essentially cancelling out the arch of the second leaf this brought the car down considerably. Looks like it should work out. I thought I had some shots of our removal of the extra metal in the frame rails above the axle but I'll have to look for those.
Then we assigned tasks for acquiring some parts and such that we'll need next time around. That should be sometime soon after the fall Townsend get together.
Jim
Been reading up on expanding foam to make a custom moulded insert for the race seat ran across this. :)
QuoteWell, it *must* be time for this again: A friend of mine once built a canoe. He spent a long time on it and it was a work of art. Almost the final phase was to fill both ends with polyurethane expanding foam. He duly ordered the bits from Mr Glasplies (an excellent purveyor of all things fibreglass) and it arrived in two packs covered with appropriately dire warnings about expansion ratios and some very good notes on how to use it. Unfortunately he had a degree, worse still two of them. One was in Chemistry, so the instructions got thrown away and the other in something mathematical because in a few minutes he was merrily calculating the volume of his craft to many decimal places and the guidelines got binned as well. He propped the canoe up on one end, got a huge tin, carefully measured the calculated amounts of glop, mixed them and quickly poured the mixture in the end of the canoe (The two pack expands very rapidly). I arrived as he was completing this and I looked in to see the end chamber over half full of something Cawdors Witches would have been proud of. Two thing occurred to me, one was the label which said in big letters "Caution - expansion ration 50:1" (or something similar) and the other that the now empty tins said "approximately enough for 20 small craft" Any comment was drowned out by a sea of yellow brown foam suddenly pouring out of the middle of the canoe and the end of the canoe bursting open. My friend screamed and leapt at his pride and joy which was knocked to the ground as he started trying to bale handfuls of this stuff out with his hands. Knocking the craft over allowed the still liquid and not yet fully expanded foam to flow to the other end of the canoe where it expanded and shattered that end as well. A few seconds later and we had a canoe with two exploded ends, a mountain of solid foam about 4ft high growing out of the middle, and a chemist firmly embedded up to his armpits in it. At this stage he discovered the reaction was exothermic and his hands and arms were getting very hot indeed. Running about in small circles in a confined space while glued to the remains of a fairly large canoe proved ineffective so he resorted to screaming a bit instead. Fortunately a Kukri was to hand so I attacked the foam around his hands with some enthusiasm. The process was hindered by the noise he was making and the fact he was trying to escape while still attached to the canoe. Eventually I managed to hack out a lump of foam still including most of his arms and hands. Unfortunately my tears of laughter were not helping as they accelerated the foam setting. Seeking medical help was obviously out of the question, the embarrassment of having to explain his occupation (Chief Research Chemist at a major petrochemical organisation) would simply never have been lived down. Several hours and much acrimony later we had removed sufficient foam (and much hair) to allow him to move again. However he still looked something like a failed audition for Quasimodo with red burns on his arms and expanded blobs of foam sticking everywhere. My comment that the scalding simply made the hairs the foam was sticking to come out easier was not met with the enthusiasm I felt it deserved. I forgot to add that in retrospect rather unwisely he had set out to do this deed in the hallway of his house (the only place he later explained with sufficient headroom for the canoe - achieved by poking it up the stairwell) . Having extricated him we now were faced with the problem of a canoe construction kit embedded in a still gurgling block of foam which was now irrevocably bonded to the hall and stairs carpet as well as several banister rails and quite a lot of wallpaper. At this point his wife and her mother came back from shopping...... Oh yes - and he had been wearing the pullover Mum in law had knitted him for his birthday the week before. - See more at: http://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/foam-race-seats#sthash.oyZ16Hwl.dpuf
Hilarious!
I've seen what this stuff can do first hand, and what most people never consider is that it generally does continue to grow beyond the first day after mixing and molding. Allowances need to be made.
Jim
I looked into your Tin Can racers. Don't think you will fit in the cockpit. ;)
(http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Can-Midget4.jpg)
************What a great read!..This may be a little easier on the eyes. *********************************
Well, it *must* be time for this again: A friend of mine once built a canoe. He spent a long time on it and it was a work of art. Almost the final phase was to fill both ends with polyurethane expanding foam.
He duly ordered the bits from Mr Glasplies (an excellent purveyor of all things fibreglass) and it arrived in two packs covered with appropriately dire warnings about expansion ratios and some very good notes on how to use it. Unfortunately he had a degree, worse still two of them. One was in Chemistry, so the instructions got thrown away and the other in something mathematical because in a few minutes he was merrily calculating the volume of his craft to many decimal places and the guidelines got binned as well.
He propped the canoe up on one end, got a huge tin, carefully measured the calculated amounts of glop, mixed them and quickly poured the mixture in the end of the canoe (The two pack expands very rapidly). I arrived as he was completing this and I looked in to see the end chamber over half full of something Cawdors Witches would have been proud of. Two thing occurred to me, one was the label which said in big letters "Caution - expansion ration 50:1" (or something similar) and the other that the now empty tins said "approximately enough for 20 small craft"
Any comment was drowned out by a sea of yellow brown foam suddenly pouring out of the middle of the canoe and the end of the canoe bursting open. My friend screamed and leapt at his pride and joy which was knocked to the ground as he started trying to bale handfuls of this stuff out with his hands. Knocking the craft over allowed the still liquid and not yet fully expanded foam to flow to the other end of the canoe where it expanded and shattered that end as well. A few seconds later and we had a canoe with two exploded ends, a mountain of solid foam about 4ft high growing out of the middle, and a chemist firmly embedded up to his armpits in it.
At this stage he discovered the reaction was exothermic and his hands and arms were getting very hot indeed. Running about in small circles in a confined space while glued to the remains of a fairly large canoe proved ineffective so he resorted to screaming a bit instead. Fortunately a Kukri was to hand so I attacked the foam around his hands with some enthusiasm. The process was hindered by the noise he was making and the fact he was trying to escape while still attached to the canoe.
Eventually I managed to hack out a lump of foam still including most of his arms and hands. Unfortunately my tears of laughter were not helping as they accelerated the foam setting. Seeking medical help was obviously out of the question, the embarrassment of having to explain his occupation (Chief Research Chemist at a major petrochemical organisation) would simply never have been lived down. Several hours and much acrimony later we had removed sufficient foam (and much hair) to allow him to move again.
However he still looked something like a failed audition for Quasimodo with red burns on his arms and expanded blobs of foam sticking everywhere. My comment that the scalding simply made the hairs the foam was sticking to come out easier was not met with the enthusiasm I felt it deserved. I forgot to add that in retrospect rather unwisely he had set out to do this deed in the hallway of his house (the only place he later explained with sufficient headroom for the canoe - achieved by poking it up the stairwell)
Having extricated him we now were faced with the problem of a canoe construction kit embedded in a still gurgling block of foam which was now irrevocably bonded to the hall and stairs carpet as well as several banister rails and quite a lot of wallpaper. At this point his wife and her mother came back from shopping......
Oh yes - and he had been wearing the pullover Mum in law had knitted him for his birthday the week before. - See more at: [www.lotus7.club]
We now have a new master cylinder so we can finish the brakes. Steve found us "The last new brass Mustang radiator in the country" and so we promptly corrupted it by cutting away parts of the mounting flanges. I guess those Mustang purists are just out of luck. We cut back and bent over the panel in front of the radiator (Radiator Duct I think it is called) so it and the Caravan fan would fit in front of the swaybar, and for mounts we cut the ends off the original radiator mounting panel and welded them to the inner wings and radiator duct. Then we worked up an alternator mount and adjuster and fitted a new Delcotron I had left over. They found a handy spot for the Volvo dual fan relay and wired that in so all we need is a thermostatic switch or two that will screw into the intake.
We need to fit the exhaust from the manifolds back, probably a set of plug wires, and I think we can fire it up and drive it around.
So now we need a seat so we can get started on the roll cage. Carl's working on that but if anyone has a line on a cheap used racing seat we'd be grateful since this is such a low budget build.
Anyway once we get the cage done we can paint it and start planning for fire suppression and safety.
Oh, and we decided to eliminate the stock hood latch and use hood pins instead. What are the best options there these days?
Jim
Did you check with Terry or Junior Senneker about the seat..??...They have a LOT of contacts in the racing world.
Jim,
For the rad fan switch, check out the VW 191 959 481C temp switch.
It is a dual temp assy. On off @ 102/91'c and 95/84'c
I use them lots and they work out well.
You need to mount it on your radiator on the outlet tank.It uses a 22mm x 1.5 nut that gets soldered onto your (thankfully) brass rad.
They are simple, cheap and easy to find.
Cheers
Fred
If that's the same thread as the Volvo switch I think I have the tap for it... if there's enough meat around the manifold switch bosses it could possibly go there. I used one of the Volvo (or was it Saab?) switches on the Clair's Buick V6 TR7 when I had it, but made an external fitting for it from a chunk of aluminum. I'll have to look.
Rick, that sounds like a good lead. Maybe Carl should follow up on it, I think he knows those guys better than I do.
Jim
Hey Jim,
Forgot to mention, they also sell the proper pigtail and rubber boot for that switch as well. Made by Delco of all people.
Jim.....have Carrick ask......he works with the Sennekers.
Maybe you can ask today, Rick, since y'all will be at Steve's "Not so surprise Party". :)
I would if I was going to be in Grand Rapids.....but I'm home.
Good LBC weekend here. Carl took some pictures. We installed the new M/C and bled the brakes, installed the catch can for the coolant, made bumpers and tow loops, installed a coil, blocked off holes in the firewall and a few other things.
Jim
Chumpcar type race ... only less safe?
https://baerfieldmotorpark.com/entry-form-rules/
No cages, stock gas tank, basically a stripped car + whatever goofiness you want to add.
I dunno about this. I've been in a 12hr endurance race at Ocala Speedway but they used the lower half of the figure 8 to bypass a majority of the front stretch. 24hrs on a 1/2 mile track sounds god awful boring. I don't care how many cars they start with, they'll be lucky to have 50 finish. Winner could be +10 laps ahead of second.
On the plus side, you could conceivably win money on this deal.
And it's only 3 1/2 hours from Jim's place.
*wink*
Thanks. That might actually be achievable.
Jim
I have some progress to report on this car. First the T5 is back in and looks like it'll work just the same as before. Came up with a gas cap so no more rag in the filler neck. Made a small aluminum panel for the center of the dash which has an ignition switch and two safety toggle switches, I figure we can use one for lights and the other for radiator fan override. Not sure what else is really needed. The ignition switch is wired, as is the starter and fuel pump, with another lead up to the coil. The fuel pump runs, the starter cranks. The ignition is another matter. So, instead of being able to fire it up today and drive it out to the shed as I intended, I towed it.
Currently we have to hit a moving target with this car. Chump car rules are changing and other options are appearing so the best approach I think is to proceed with what we know will be needed, since the past suggests it may be awhile before we ever hit the track.
So here is the projected list of things we will need to take care of:
-Wire up or replace ignition
-Wire up radiator fan, sensor, relay and override switch
-Wire up alternator, and Ign light or ammeter/voltmeter
-Oil pressure gage
-Tachomenter
-Fuel gage
-Battery cutoff switch
-Inertia switch if required or deemed desirable
-Tail lights?
-tidy up and secure wiring
-Air cleaner
-Hose from surge tank to catch can
-antifreeze
-Hood latch
-Hood strut or prop rod
-cheap paint job (acrylic enamel probably)
Those are the small items. Once we can drive it around the yard a bit we can maybe justify the rest of the list.
-A racing seat of some sort is the next most important item. Once we have figured out the best way to deal with that we can move on. Probably a good idea to talk to Terry S. at Dayton. Then:
-Roll cage
-Seat belts
-Install rearview mirror
-Finish welding door skins to body if allowed by rules
-Fire suppression system
At that point we should be ready to address any specific details that remain, and that may or may not happen by the end of the summer.
I've briefly looked at this latest new entry into the cheap racer concept. Looked a little Iffy but may be OK. Unless I'm mistaken I saw things like "no roll cages" and "stock bumpers" so we'll just have to see how it evolves. I don't think we could even consider running this car without at the very least a rollbar and considering we cut the structure out of the doors to build a cage we'd have to get replacement doors. I still think a full cage is the best option.
Jim
Jim
Yeah, I don't like that "no cage" rule either.
I talked to the promoter. He says he's already got a 2013 Challenger and a 2017 Prius register.
Well that's going to be an interesting run-off :P
Jim
Wonder what they do about convertibles? Just outlaw them I guess?
I think we may have to take a good look at the vintage racing organizations. I don't know if any of them allow engine changes though.
Jim
Promoter thinks he's going to have 500 cars. Of course, promoters survive on a steady diet of moon beams and unicorn farts ... which they feed to everybody else.
I'm expecting 200 / $20k to win. I would be seriously impressed by 300.
+400 cars would be pretty close to nose to tail, three wide, all the way around the track.
ie - No "racing" for the first four hours because there's no where to go. They'd be lucky to go 40mph.
Dodge is going to have a serious problem with how wide it is and fuel mileage. Something that heavy is also going to chew up tires if it gets going very fast. The Prius is narrow and has mileage for days but I wonder about durability and handling ( over the last half of the race ). I've ridden in my buddy's Prius and I was never that impressed by accel. And a circle track is two drag races every lap.
Yeah, that prius is just hoping everyone else breaks or shunts. The dodge is counting on getting out in front and then it being like passing a school bus. Admittedly both strategies have worked, and the Challenger corners better than you would expect. I'd give it a go, probably be a lot of fun. Don't see a stock MGB hanging with it in fact. Or probably one with a V6 for that matter, unless it was pretty seriously tricked out.
Jim
you could use a 340 crank instead of a 350, right?
Got your text Todd, thanks.
Jim