I ran out of gas three times during BritishV8 2012, plus once more on the way home - and I'm sure many of you thought I was losing my grip - but I found out today that there was a technical reason. The pick-up in my fuel tank had come apart, so it was no longer reaching the bottom third of the tank!
Here's what my fuel tank looks like, viewed through the fuel sender hole.
FuelPickupCameApart.jpg
The fuel strainer is laying on the floor, in the background. Baffles are conspicuously missing, because this is an el cheapo aftermarket fuel tank. Soon, the pick-up tube will be attached via hose to an in-tank fuel pump. I plan to install 1977+ MGB fuel level sender, which has an integral pick-up tube, but I'll use that second tube for the EFI system's return line.
My suit was late from the cleaners, I had a flat tire, there was a tornado,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,IT WASN'T MY FAULT ! ! ! lol.
( courtesy John Belushi/Blues Brothers )
Dave
Hey, you bought the el cheapo tank, right? Still your fault ;).
That's you story, Curtis!
Stick to it!
<grin>
Hey Curtis, was that one of those Moss fuel tanks? I'm planning on replacing mine and would appreciate a heads up.
Paul
I bought the tank way back around 1990. I don't recall whether it came from Moss or Victoria... but I'm certain it's NOT as well made as what Moss sells now. Moss sells tanks at two price points: basically $200 or $400. Their more expensive tanks are made by British Motor Heritage in England using MG's original production dies. I read a press release several months ago wherein BMH announced they're now using galvanized steel. (I believe they're applying black paint over top of the zinc.) The really big advantage of BMH tanks is that they're internally baffled. Moss' less expensive fuel tanks are made by Spectra in Canada from Ni-terne coated steel. (Ni-terne means there's a layer of nickel and then a layer of lead/tin alloy.) The Spectra tanks come unpainted - in fact they recommend you don't paint them - and they don't have baffles. Incidentally, I was surprised how nearly completely rust-free the inside of my 20+ year old tank is. It appears to be plain old mild steel.
Nice find Curtis.....I wonder how long it would have taken to find that out, if you hadn't done this conversion? So when it came apart inside the tank, after four times of running out of gas, you were filling up at half tank. That wouldn't be fun on a long trip. When my car is at 1/4 tank on the gauge(first fill up ever), I found out I have 7 gallons of fuel left not including the sump. At 1/4 tank fill up, can pump in 12 gallons max of fuel. So Maybe 160 mile reserve or a little more on that 1/4 tank. Made me feel a little better I wouldn't run out of fuel.
Anyway, are you going to vent the tank somehow, roll over vent safety ball check, some safety switch to turn off fuel etc..?
Thanks Curtis, I heard Moss had two levels of tanks but didn't know exactly what the difference was. My existing tank doesn't leak or have any dents in the bottom but it's original and I just don't trust it. I might give the inside a look but would feel better with a new one. I'm betting I'll find a bit more rust than you did.
Two things contribute to that clean tank. Well three or four really. Curtis probably drives the car nearly year round so he keeps gas in it. The climate in Colorado is dry so not much humidity to condense in the tank, and then oddly enough the ethanol they've been putting in our gas is hygroscopic so it has a marked tendency to suck up any water moisture that is available to it and carry it away to be burned. Of course if the car sits for extended periods that could be a bad thing rather than a good one.
Jim
Other than assured fuel delivery under hard acceleration and cornering with a low fuel state, which I do very little of, what is the real advantage of baffles in the tank and is the $400 tank worth twice the price? I suppose Curtis has already answered that question, but has there been other problems with the less expensive tank? This is probably a pointless question because I know my personality and would always regret not getting the better tank; besides, if I did you guys would never let me hear the end of it.
Paul
Paul. I have been very pleased with my Spectra Premium tank with NO Baffles. I suspect Baffles are an over rated, unseen item that people have heard is desirable. I personally don't care to let my fuel level drop low enough to matter. The Spectra tank has a little extra capacity and that is a plus. The later models MGB's did not have baffles I don't think. Instead of baffles, I prefer waffles! Pecan to be exact
Kelly, do you want Dickel on those pecan waffles?? :~)
I cheaped out last year and bought a Spectra tank. The top of the original looked like lace after a few touches with a rotary wire brush. Mine came ffrom the Little British Car Co. in Michigan. Even cheaper than Moss.
QuoteThe Spectra tank has a little extra capacity and that is a plus...
Hate to burst your bubble, Kelly, but the Spectra tank has the same capacity as an original Leyland tank,(10 Imperial gallons) I also installed a Spectra last year and had the original '76 tank on the floor for measurement and comparison...externally identical in all respects....and as you indicated with no internal baffling..
I suspect the mirepresentation came form the Imperial to US conversion...originally listed as 10 Imp, 12.5 US, which eventually came to be 12.5 Imp and 14.5 US (although the conversion math doesn't work out!)
Thanks Graham for the "wake up call" I knew I pumped 14+ gal into the tank on install, but did not understand the 12.5 was Imperial Gal. Still; it give a good cruising range. YES, I can handle the Dickel on my waffles Phil!
An external swirlport might solve the issue of fuel slosh and could be easily fitted for a low fuel light, no? Keep the cheap tank, add an external swirlpot in your unused battery compartment! 1001 ways to skin a cat
One thing worth mentioning is if you use one of the new plastic fuel pump "modules" found in most newer cars a swirlpot is not required. With this set up the pump is mounted within a plastic container and the fuel return line exits back into the plastic container.
In the OEM applications the new cars and trucks almost never use swirlpots (just a big open tank), when they use a fuel pump module assembly. Which makes it nice as you can use the cheaper tank without the baffles!
Bill
Don't let the tank sit empty for long periods. I was amazed how clean my dad's 50 year old tank was (is) in his MGB.
As for baffles, I much prefer them. That is a lot of weight that is constantly shifting in the corners.
Summit sells a nice in tank conversion kit made by aeromotive.
It comes with everything needed to install it and has a good anti slosh pick up.
So baffles aren't needed.
It's a little pricey but really nice quality and it's all new.
Summit's # AEI 18688
Cheers
Fred
PS Curtis, I think your excuses "just ran out of gas". ;-)
Carl, if you keep the tank full it doesn't slosh...
Jim
Let's see.....12 gallons x 6 lbs = 72 pounds!
Yeah,... almost as much as your back bumper! ;-)
Jim
Ha, Ha! That bumper ONLY weighs 43.8 lbs, but not for much longer...
Well... here's what I came up with, in a hurry, and on the cheap.
(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/FuelTankAccessHoleAndPump.jpg)
(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/FuelSump.jpg)
(http://www.britishv8.org/MG/CurtisJacobson/InTankFuelPumpInstallation.jpg)
I budgeted $150, and almost made target. Walbro GSS250 fuel pump, Honda Civic spec pre-filter (w/ 45 degree angle pick-up), electrical pigtail, and J30R10 in-tank rated fuel hose came from Auto Performance Engineering for a grand total of $135. Figure another ten or fifteen bucks for a small handful of hardware and some neoprene from McMaster Carr. Scrap metal and an old solvent can from my recycling bin. AN-6 bung was leftover from my fuel rail project. A second generation part would undoubtedly be far more elegant, but I think this first one will probably work okay.
What about weight? The aluminum fuel tank I ordered back in December finally arrived Wednesday (after I'd given up all hope of ever seeing it.) I'll probably be putting it up for sale as time permits. Turns out it weighs about fifty percent more than my modified MGB tank.
Steel MGB tank with in-tank pump for EFI: 21.4 pounds
FuelTank214.jpg
Aftermarket aluminum MGB tank with in-tank pump for EFI: 30.6 pounds
FuelTank306.jpg
I like it!
Nicely done Curtis!
It's well thought out, creative, perfectly functional and fiscally sensitive.
Pretty much a home run in my book.
Cheers
Fred
Very nice. Good engineering too. About the only place I can think of where you might improve it is by rounding the corners of the cutout and cover plate but with that many fasteners I doubt it will fail. Anybody ever tell you that you do good work?
Jim
I have to agree Curtis does nice work. I really like the photos you take, like the one inside the tank! Great job!
Calvin
I wish my tank would have already had the supply and return lines so I could have made my installation as clean as that, love the use of aluminium can. Nice work!
If anyone is curious, here are preview snapshots of the filter and supply fuel line.
FuelLine.jpg
This is PTFE (Teflon) fuel line with stainless steel braid covered over with black nylon. The two sixty-degree AN-6 swivel fittings will mate to my fuel tank and fuel rail respectively. The two straight fittings will connect to my in-line fuel filter.
FuelFilter.jpg
This is an AC Delco fuel filter with adapter fittings for AN-6. One of my concerns about some of the fancy billet aluminum filters is that they don't have a whole lot of media surface area. I intend to put the filter on and then forget about it for years at a time just like I'd do with my daily driver. The extra set of o-rings (GM part# 22514722) are there because the ones that come with the converter fittings apparently aren't rated for ethanol / gasoline blends.
QuoteThat bumper ONLY weighs 43.8 lbs, but not for much longer...
Ta Da! My rear bumper now magically ONLY weighs 20 lbs. even!
~12 years and 25k miles without issues so far.
I was curious if the parts are still available and affordable to someone trying to duplicate this approach. Good news! The pump alone still only costs $80. The 45-degree Honda style pre-filter alone only costs $15.
It took me a couple clicks to find the filter I used, so here's a hint:
92-Honda-Civic-Fuel-Pre-Filter.jpg
I have copied someone else on the forum who used a VW Golf in tank pump. I cut a 5" diameter hole in the top of the tank and the VW pump slides right in. These pumps sit in their own self contained swirl pot so reasonably easy say to install. For me the hardest part was cutting a second 5" hole in the salad bowl. I have put a top hat onto the base of the boot for easy access and the spare wheel sits over it. I will put in a low fuel warning light the thermistor (about $5 from Aliexpress!) will sit on the side of the VW pump which comes already wired to fit one.
A thermistor senses the fuel level? How?
Jim