The LS4 is the poor stepchild of the LS series. Used in FWD cars with transmission mounted starter. Small GM V6 bellhousing pattern. Lots available at decent prices. Only 300HP! For the starter the Fiero guys machine the bellhousing and make a bracket. Since it only came with a automatic you would need a custom flywheel. My idea would use a block plate,Northstar starter,2.2 flywheel redrilled and 2.2 belhousing. Would look similar to 215/Rover setup. Most guys do away with the DOD (Displacement on demand) lifters. They have broken and caused oil usage issues. There is some misinformation that the hi-volume oil pump will suck the pan dry. You can improve oil drain back and use the 40lb relief spring. It is a popular upgrade for the LS racers. You can convert the front cover to the better RWD setup or there is a spacer kit to use the Big Block Chevy electric water pump. All the same aftermarket stuff will work with this motor. If you use the LS2 intake,LS3 headers,LS6 cam, lifters and valve springs for an easy 400HP. Here are some pictures of aftermarket oil pan,front pulleys and a good looking motor without the ugly coils on the valve covers.
frontrunner640.jpg
96answ.jpg
(one image deleted by moderator because it had a watermark...)
That is one good looking piece of kit.
Any chance a dodge dakota bell housing with a toyota w58 trans would work? Didn't know if the dakota bell housing had provision for a starter.
Ryan,It may work as far as bolting up between motor and trans but, the LS4 has no starter provision. GM chose to mount it on the transverse FWD auto instead to make room. The Dakota has the same starter location as the small V6 and will have interference with the block, the 2.2 is lower, plus is commonly used to convert the FWD V6 to RWD. The reason I chose it also is the flywheel diameter and 142 tooth is the same between the LS4,2.2 and Northstar starter. If you notch the bellhousing like the Fiero guys and mount up a bracket for the LS4 starter it would work. You would have to box an area above the gas pedal for starter clearance. I have some pictures of the Fiero setup and Northstar starter for my idea.
IMG_9351.jpg
IMG_7081.jpg
IMG_9352.jpg
1.jpg
Chevy S10 2.2 bellhousing picture:
60_bells.JPG
Ryan, The Dakota bellhousing has the larger Toyota transmission pattern for the AX15 same as R154,Colorado/Canyon/Solstice/Skye. You would want the Jeep Wrangler AX5 pattern(small Toyota) for your W58.
2_5_bells1.jpg
Rear mount starter = reverse rotation-yes ? roverman.
Good point, I get confused! You'd probably want the R154 behind the ls4 anyway! Other than the weight difference, the 5.3 truck engine is probably a lot easier to use than the ls4, huh?
Art, the LS4 starter would be reverse rotation compared to Northstar starter. Ryan, I'm trying to make a affordable solution for the LS4 beause they are plentiful and much cheaper than the performance aluminum LSX motors. The iron truck motor advantage is only the block mounted starter. You would still have to change intake and front cover over to car items,plus the added weight and larger bellhousing.The LS4 uses the LS6 heads with 4.8 flatop pistons for 10.0 to 1 compression. Much better than the truck motor. You can mill the heads .030 to up the compression to 10.5. The restrictive stock intake actually detunes the LS4. Here is a picture comparing with the LS2 intake and Throttle body. There were some Trailblazer aluminum 5.3's but somewhat rare and pricey also. I think the W58 would be fine with a stock 300HP LS4. I kind of like the Colorado/Solstice(large Toyota pattern) tranny but the shifter either is too far forward or too far back. There is a webpage where they mount the R154 shifter inbetween.The bellhousing mount doesn't look that difficult to me.
DCP03232.jpg
Jim, is it not possible to put the starter down on the passenger's side in the conventional location for some reason? Seems to me, being aluminum, that you could heliarc a couple bosses in place, maybe holesaw a cutout?
Jim
Jim B. makes a good point, putting the starter up high on the driver's side is a bad location in an mgb, that's for sure.
That's what I'm doing with the 2.2 bellhousing only on driver side. Any higher and there is a thick casting that would be in the way,i don't know if there is an internal passage or not. Might still need to be trimmed to clear starter nose. I have to PM Joe Schaefer on his 2.2 to get crank flange to motor belhousing flange as a spacer will be needed to put flywheel and clutch in right spot for tranny splines. Here is a picture of Joe's 2.2 mini starter to show how low it would be with the 2.2 bellhousing. Picture of rear of LS4 showing small bellhousing flywheel area.
DSCN1005.JPG
(Moderator edited post to remove watermarked photo.)
More info on rear mount starter,LS2 intake,coil mods and cooling vent mod.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1588653-88-fiero-formula-ls4-f40-6-speed-swap.html
Better picture of Northstar starter:
BpghMrQBGkKGrHqMOKkEEuVr0bInBLrtshHS0_12.jpg
I was referring to mounting the starter alongside the engine in the conventional way rather than on the transmission. On the driver's side I think the oil filter would be in the way. That photo above looks like maybe there is enough space, just need a mount. The S-10 bellhousing would fit this engine? If so that just leaves the flywheel. I understand the easiest solution may be to cut down an LS-1 flywheel and mount the V6 ring gear.
Was the T56 ever mated to the small GM corporate bellhousing pattern? (I'm guessing no.)
Jim
Jim,The picture is a little decieving, the oil filter actually fits up in a pocket in the pan. I would probably use a remote filter for more room.You could probably do the same thing on the other side with the larger S10 or Camaro bellhousing. You still would have to mount the starter below pan level. Way below those starter pockets. I guess you could Tig weld the pocket further down. I'm just trying to use the 2.2 stuff becaue it is a proven bolt in solution for the GM transverse engnes to convert to RWD. It just happens to have the lowest starter pocket but on the drivers side. The Northstar starter is a mini starter and would tuck in close like shown in the picture of Joe's 2.2. The motor plate with the hole for starter mount would look similar to the Buick 215/Rover setup. Probaby have a rear brace to oil pan. With my idea someone could unbolt their little V6 and directly bolt in the LS4. There are simple conversion mounts that use SBC insulators. Those would bolt to S10 V6 mounts. Here is a picture of the small tucked in starter idea on a 3400 V6:
(image deleted by moderator because it had a watermark...)
If you look at the first picture with the blue bracket you will see a bump in the transaxle right above and behind the oil filter. That is where the 2.2/FWD starter nose goes. Notice the bracket and thick aluminum pad just to left. They need to go. Also I noticed the Northstar nosecone would have to be cut and Tigged after turned 180 degrees. Unless you use it on the otherside. I remember the 4.9 Cadillac with 2.2 bellhousing is notched out for nose cone.
I see. And the starter bump in the S-10 bell is on the driver's side. I just hate remote filter mounts, especially when it is tucked in so nicely in the OEM location. I have still to see a clear shot of the other side of the engine. I can't think of any obstruction that would be there. The Wrangler and Dakota bellhousings appear to have the starter pocket on that side, wouldn't a fairly simple plate bolted to the bellhousing provide a suitable starter mount? Or a plate heliarced to the bellhousing itself?
I am completely unfamiliar with the transmissions that could be used with those two bellhousings, what do they have to offer?
Jim
Jim, Ryan brought those bellhousings up when he mentioned the Toyota W58 he wanted to use. Toyota/Aisan trannys had small and large pattern. The Celica/Supra W58 is small pattern,so is Jeep AX5. The Supra R154 is large pattern,so is Dodge AX15 and Colorado/Solstice. Those bellhousings have the small GM V6 block pattern because Jeep used that pattern with the GM 2.8V6 and their own 2.5 four. Then Chrysler bought Jeep and used the 2.5 four in the Dakota. That is why I like that pattern bellhousing. Also used in Isuzu V6,3800 GM V6 and Cadillac 4.5/4.9 V8. I will see if I can find another picture of the other side. I don't have a motor here, so am doing research for a few that have and are interested in a starter solution. By the way, I appreciate your insight/ideas,if we can figure this out it will open up a new source of excellent motors for the hobby.
Jim B., Still looking for a better picture but, this Fiero build shows the passenger side heavy web where the starter would go with the RWD bellhousings.The 2.2 and 3800 are driver side and lower like the FWD bellhousings. RWD also use a larger 148 tooth flywheel in addition to a higher starter mount. Or you could just notch out the 2.2 bellhousing on other side like in the Caddy 4.9 photo.
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Looks like enough of the ring gear is showing to engage a starter, and there may be some threaded bosses in that area that could be usable. It's on the same side as stock MG so no rewiring is needed and there should be clearance to the frame rails. It doesn't look to me like it would be any more difficult to mount a starter there than on the other side, it is the more conventional location of the two and avoids filter interference. I think I'd have to try that location to see if it could be made to work.
Of the transmissions mentioned, what do they have in terms of torque ratings and gear ratios? Are we talking exclusively about manual 5 speeds here, or are there other options?
Jim
Jim, I got your gears turning! You already know about the Jeep/Isuzu AW4 automatic. The 5 speeds listed in order of strength: R154 Supra 1000HP twin Turbo,Colorado/Solstice 450HP,More in custom setups, shifter location fixed with R154 shifter mod, LS conversions.W58 about same as T5 300-400HPpopular in Australia with Dellow conversions,AX15 probably same but low 1st gear,forward shifter(truck/Jeep),AX5 weakest and also truck/Jeep.
The 2.2 was originally FWD transverse in the Cavalier. So when GM converted it to RWD for the S10 they kept the FWD starter location and crank flange location. That is why the 2.2 bellhousing works so good to convert 3100,3400,3500 FWD V6 to RWD. The LS4 crank flange was shortened 3mm to mount transverse. It may have been to make room rather than match the FWD setup. I am going to know soon whether its the same or a crank flange spacer will be required.
Lots of 5.3 LS4 motors on Ebay and car-part.com for $800-$1200 average. Double and triple that for the Camaro/Corvette ones. You can find the truck iron ones and switch over to car intake and front cover. They have the different cams and heads also. The LS4 comes stock with the best LS6 heads. LS4 factory dyno chart:
GMDyno.jpg
So I take it, if Dan for instance were to go shopping for parts to put one of those in his TR7 he'd want to get a 2.5 Jeep Wrangler bellhousing, the W58... out of what Toyota? The LS4 out of a Pontiac or Chevy and then would have to sort out the starter and flywheel, does that sound about right?
And what vehicles were the R154 used in?
Jim
Jim, The Jeep Wrangler 2.5 bellhousing would work for the W58 found in late 80's Toyota Celica Supras with a stock LS4. W58 is smaller than the others. The Dodge Dakota 2.5 bellhousing will fit the later 90's Toyota Supra and some Lexus R154 and Colorado/Canyon forward shifter/Solstice/Skye rear shifter. The Colorado/Canyon/Solstice/Sky Aisan tranny is the most common and a very good transmission, almost identicle io the R154 with better syncros, Mallet does LS6 450HP swaps in Solstice. They use common GM input and yoke. They have around 3.7 first gear where the older Toyota has about a 3.2 first ratio. So I would recommend higher rear gears. You might be able to shorten Solstice shifter housing to move shifter about 3" forward or use on Colorado to move shifter back 3". Picture of Solstice tranny.
IMAG0397.jpg
I've looked long & hard at that engine. Seemed to be the most economical LS engine, The starter is what stalled it, though. I'm not keen on the Toyota trans gear ratios, either. I would rather keep my T-5.
Only 300hp, so? That's double what I'm working with now. ;)
Carl, I'm looking at using the 2.2 bellhousing with T5. Same setup as used with the 3400/3500 V6.
It's getting real interesting here, Jim. I may have to ditch the old 215, yet.
Gotta scat. I'm off to Durham, NC for the MG Roadmaster work weekend at Flying Circus English Cars.
Old picture from Greg's classic "what fits what" of Colorado 5 speed compared to Muncie 4 speed:
MA5_Mun.JPG
R154 Supra shifter position is close to MGB, right inbetween the Colorado and Solstice. You can see they look almost identicle except shifter position. AX15 is furthest forward like S10 T5. R154 supra picture:
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Here's my idea for an LS4 starter solution. First, I want to say that I am very interested in Jim's idea as I'm using a 2.2 bellhousing on my V6. One thing I want to avoid though, if possible, is modifying the starter. It would be nice to buy an off the shelf unit in the event of a failure. Went through that with my alternator on the way back from Palestine. (ask Jim and Dan) I'm also not keen on using a block plate, I need to keep the engine as short as possible. So while I'm keeping my eye on Jim's progress I've been thinking about the following approach for quite some time.
JEGSPreformMini-Stater.jpg
I'm thinking that this starter, the picture is from the JEGS site and is one of their Preform mini-starters, would be a great starting point. There are a million of these available on Ebay as well. Notice how the starter gear housing is offset from the rest of the starter. It's really hard to get a sense of size from all the pictures I looked at and I looked high and low for the dimensions of one of these but couldn't find any. (if anyone is using one of these and could get some measurments that would be great!) To me it looks like the gear housing is less than 2 inches in diameter. If so, then the starter gear would be well less than an inch from the edge of the housing which would be good for the LS4 situation.
LS4StaterMountIdeacopy.jpg
My idea is to modify the aluminum plate used on the starter so the starter gear snuggles up to the flywheel ring gear. This picture shows the passenger side of the block with no bad art work in the way.
LS4startermod.jpg
In this very bad mock-up picture, the blue image represents the aluminum plate the starter is bolted to. The purple stuff could be angle iron..or something heavy/strong so the starter won't shift/move once it is bolted in place. The left most purple thing shows a hole at the very top, that is the bottom bellhousing bolt hole, which goes through the block and requires a nut at the front to keep it tight. I don't know the size of the bolt but it is very beefy. On the right side of the picture, the hole labeled "Drill Block" would require drilling the block. The aluminum is pretty thick in this area so it shouldn't be an issue. There probably won't be enough room to bolt the angle iron to the front of the block but there should be plenty to bolt it to the flywheel side. You could use shims between the angle iron and starter to ensure the starter was absolutely parallel with the flywheel.
LS4PicturesSideofBlock.jpg
You will notice something labeled "partially grind off" in one of the previous pictures. This picture gives a better idea of what I'm talking about here. This is cast into the block and it appears it might need to be partially shaped so the starter will fit. Depending on how extensive the shaping is, this would be a good place to anchor a brace that you could bolt to the bottom of the starter aluminum plate to further stablize it. You could even add a brace of some sort from the block to the front of the starter housing like some of the earlier SBC starters used. The goal of this approach is minimal modification to the block and no block plate.
It would be nice to keep the 142 tooth flywheel in my case but you could go with the 148 tooth S-10 flywheel which would give you about a 1/4" (give or take) more flywheel to work with. It's about a 1/2" larger diameter than the 142 tooth.
I hope this is somewhat clear. It's really hard to discribe something like this. Does this sound crazy or possible? I'd be interested in any feedback from the group.
Anyway, there has to be an easy solution to this. It is just a matter of finding it.
-- Scott
Jim, here are some pictures of the other side of the block. Not sure if you have any of these. Hope they are helpful.
LS4Driversideview.jpg
Here is a view of the bellhousing side
LS4OilFilterArea.jpg
Here is a view of the oil filter side
LS4DriversFlywheelClearance.jpg
Here, the 6" mark on the tape measure is centered on the crank. I believe the 142 tooth flywheel is just a shade less than 12" in diameter.
Regards
-- Scott
Scott, those pictures help but, could you back up a little and get a good shot of where the starter would go. Your idea might work if you grind that tab all the way off and grind staight up. I do have a good picture of factory LS V8 starter mount.
DSCN2162.jpg
I like Scott's idea ,but in the drawing instead of the square starter mount,use a 3/8" steel plate. Bolted to the bellhousing bolt and block and with a tab also bolted to the thick boss. Then instead of using the mini starter drill 2 mounting holes for the Northstar starter. May have to have a spacer to line up teeth. A rear mount to oil pan rail would probably be a good idea also. Ugly drawing but kind of like Jim Bs idea. Drawing doesn't show tab bolted to boss.
LS4startermod.jpg
Jim N, I like that one. Run a gusset from the bottom over to the pan flange bolt and you have a nicely triangulated and rigid mount, and there are a variety of starters that would work with it I think.
Jim
This is a fascinating thread! My question is about the ECU. Would you be able to use the ECU that came with the donor car? I am putting a GM 3400 in my TR6 and we are using the original ECU and engine harness. We have stripped all the extraneous stuff out of the harness and we are getting the ECU reprogrammed. Would you have to do the same for the LS4 ECU or is there an easier route?
Cheers
Byron
Jim N, here's a wider shot showing more of that side of the block.
LS4WideShotPassSide.jpg
It looks like it is possible to grind the block a little to gain some room in the area down and to the right of the bellhousing bolt. I'm still having difficulty in seeing how the Northstar starter is going to fit in that space. It would be helpful to know the dimensions of it. Next time I get to the junkyard I'm going to go looking for one. It would be great to be able to use it.
-- Scott
Byron,
You'd have to do the same with the LS4 ecu. I think MS3 is a better way to go.
Regards
-- Scott
Putting a flex plate or starter on the motor would help a whole lot in visualizing the mount. There may be plenty of room for the pinion to engage the ring gear but without the parts you can't tell. Another thing I noticed is the vertical hole in the fixturing boss along the pan rail. A close fitting pin there could allow the large bolt to be the only fastener needed on the mounting plate, because they are in opposing planes.
As an alternative, if you look at the bellhousings which have a starter bulge in that location, they do have attachment bolt bosses. Maybe not in the best locations but below the block attachment there are a couple available so a simple aluminum plate of the correct thickness attached to the bellhousing using those bosses should also work quite well. Possibly the mounting plate could be combined with the dust cover for additional rigidity.
Jim
Jim, unfortunately no flex plate came with the motor. I'll try to fab something up out of cardboard. The fixturing boss may have to go away depending on which starter is used. It will be very tight for sure.
Scott
Scott, I chose the Northstar starter as it is compact(mini starter) and has the smallest 2 bolt mount. I didn't realize I could mount on the opposite side with no alteration. I think I finally found a good picture of one. You would have better luck getting one off Ebay. GM mounted it inside the engine valley under the intake manifold. You should be able to find a 2.2 flywheel at the junkyard. The Northstar flywheel/flexplate is 142 tooth also. I don't know if it would work but thats the main reason I chose the starter. I know the 2.2 plugged and redrilled will.
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NorthstarStarter2.jpg
Here is a flywheel interchange,unfortunately the LS4 only came with a Auto trans flexplate. I wonder if it would interchange with another vehicle with same bolt pattern? I know the 95 and older 2.2 and FWD 2.8 and 3.1 and 3100 and 3400 flywheels will work if plugged and redrilled. G136 is the flexplate in the interchange but would help in finding what cars had flywheels that would work.
http://www.kingomatic.com/documents/KOM_Flywheel_Catalogue.pdf
I think the other LS series flywheels can be used if the OD is turned down and the smaller ring gear is fitted. Some of the Fiero guys are doing that. There may be a thin spacer needed (or not) or the back side trimmed a bit. Apparently the LS4 flange doesn't stick out quite as far. Seems I saw something on that, maybe in the range of 3mm to 3/16". I don't know if it would be any problem in our application. This remedy also gives us a little more leeway in positioning the starter both fore/aft and in the size of the ring gear. I have some old 215 ring gears, I wonder what is the largest size that will fit in the bellhousing? (It also affects our largest clutch size.)
Jim
Jim B, I think the 142 is snug in the 2.2 bell, the slightly larger 148 in the RWD bellhousings. Diameter aproximately 11 1/2"-11 3/4". LS4 crank flange is 3mm shorter than other LS. Front snout is 10mm shorter. all made to fit transverse FWD. Joe Shafer told me 2.2 flange is 1/8" aproximately inside engine bellhousing flange. Scott said the LS4 is .012.
Bracket with tab:
LS4startermod.jpg
Made a flywheel out of cardboard. I sized it at the 148 tooth size and marked the 142 tooth size to show the comparison.
LS4flywheelmockup.jpg
This one shows the difference in size between the 142 and 148 tooth flywheels. The 142 tooth line you see on the mockup measures 1" along the top by the bellhousing extension on the block from the block to the line. The edge of the mockup which is the 148 tooth diameter measures about 1.25"
LS4flywheelmockup1.jpg
Here's one along the edge of the block.
LS4flywheelmockup2.jpg
I got the diameters of the flywheels off of Rockauto:
148 - 12.5"
142 - 11.875"
Looks like it'll have to be the 142, yes?
That will show how big the starter can be and if the offset gear drive is required or the Northstar starter can be used without cutting the block.
Guys, I think we almost have a plan in place.
Jim
I didn't realize that fixturing boss stuck out so far. I think it'll have to go.
You guys finish this up while I go out to garage and yank out my 5.0! I want one!
Will a ford pattern t5 bolt up to the 2.2 bellhousing?
Yes. I think it has to be the ford straight up pattern.
QuoteLooks like it'll have to be the 142, yes?
Jim, I think either should work. But it brings up other questions. I'm not sure the148 tooth will fit into the 2.2 bellhousing. It obviously will fit the S-10 bellhousing and if you're using an older T-5 with the GM pattern then using that bellhousing is the way you'd probably want to go. From the information Jim N. supplied it sounds like the flywheel is not going to be placed exactly like it would be stock...at least in the 2.2 flywheel/bellhousing case. If the bellhousing mounting surface is proud of the crankshaft flange by 1/8" on the 2.2 and only around .012" on the LS4, would that be enough upset the geometry of the stock clutch lever? I don't know the answer to that question, maybe you do? Maybe a HTOB might be the only alternative in some combinations which isn't a bad thing at all just nice knowing up front. I'm going to try everything I can to find a solution for the 142 tooth flywheel.
I still think the mini-starter is the best option but the Northstar might work if it's small enough. It seems like the starter gear teeth need to be within a paper clip wire diameter of hitting bottom into the flywheel gear to mesh properly. (Read the paper clip thing from several sources) I just did a rough measurement and about an inch down from the bottom of the bellhousing mount, the 142 tooth mark on the mock up flywheel is about 3/4" from the edge of the block. So the starter housing would have to have a radius in that area of about an inch to place the starter gear in the proper location. It sure looks like the mini-starter just about meets those dimensions. You could probably grind the block to allow the starter to move up 1/4"-3/8" maybe more. This would expose more of the flywheel to the starter gear.
Can't tell if the Northstar starter's dimensions are close, the only way is to actually measure one. If time allows, I'll see if a local parts store has one I can measure. I also need to get to Jegs and see if I can get access to one of their mini-starters for measurement as well...maybe I'll just buy an ebay special at some point.
Regards
-- Scott
According to Wikipedia, the crankshaft is 12mm shorter than an LS1. 10mm in the rear and 2mm in the front.
If anyone might be interested, here are some dimensions for this motor. I'd be happy to supply any other measurements you might need as well. Just let me know.
The engine is incredibly compact. It's an unbelievable 23.25" long, bellhousing mounting surface to the front edge of the harmonic balancer. From the bottom of the harmonic balancer to the top of the throttle body flange is about 19.5". My FWD 3.1 V6 is 22" long and about 20.5" high..just to give some perspective. The intake manifold will need some clean-up on the top as you may notice but that shouldn't be a huge issue.
I hope to get some weights at some point. I came across someone who weighed one and what he found seemed to make sense to me. You can read about it at the following link:
http://www.realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6815&sid=d4853bb7f0fcdf5bb718f0d120a2fc6b&start=20
Just to summarize, with all brackets and other accessories minus the power steering pump and wiring harness it was 478 lbs. We (maybe I should say I) wouldn't use any of the brackets and other junk the factory put on this block. Just the longblock is 339 lbs. I'd expect the motor to weigh around 400-420#, plus or minus, with flywheel, water pump, intake manifold and alternator plus brackets. Should put it close to what the 5.0 Ford weighs.
LS4GeneralMeasurments.jpg
QuoteWill a ford pattern t5 bolt up to the 2.2 bellhousing?
Ryan, I have a Ford T5 bolted up to my 2.2 bellhousing so yes, it will.
Regards
Scott
IMHO, it's much more expensive and complexed than putting together a Ford E.F.I. 5.0 Liter; however, it is the latest and greatest that appeals to lots of people. For that much and unless you invest towards some performance upgrade parts, you may be embarrassed going against a well put together 302 or 331 cubic inch Ford. I'm just saying..............
Jacques,
That's what I was thinking.
It seems to me there are only two reasons for doing anything:
1. You enjoy doing it.
2. You are better off for having done it than you would be if you had not done it.
Number 1 is the preferred reason by far, and it seems this falls squarely into that category.
Do people climb mountains because they enjoy climbing mountains, or do they climb mountains because they enjoy having climbed a mountain?
There are other reasons...
It's all aluminum
It's modern
It's efficient
It's a GM
. . . .
If I ever get around to finishing my project I'll stick with my 5.0 as the fab work is pretty much done and I already have it, but if I was starting from scratch and the issues with this LS4 had been sorted, I think I'd go with the LS4 in a heartbeat. We each have our own goals with a project, and I wanted my 5.0 to have fuel injection and to fit under a normal looking hood, in my case I used an mgc hood. The only way I could do this was to use a 94-95 mustang intake, and it's the worst one there is. Rated at the factory at 215 hp and 285 ft/lb. If I try to make more horsepower the mustang forums lead me to believe I'll be severely limited by the intake even if I port it, and the factory computer will deal me fits. And that's assuming I shell out more than $1,000 for a set of aluminum heads. I'm pretty sure I'll like the engine as-is, so I'm not too worried about it. I know I could make a lot more hp going with a carb, but I don't want to do that.
Yeah, I know all about the FAST EFI, etc., and I can't justify the cost, so I'm not going there.
The LS4, by comparison, would fit under the hood, makes 300/323 as-is, and will make 400+ hp with easy upgrades (including cheap cast offs from corvette/camaro owners wanting MORE POWER!). I haven't really researched this engine specifically, but I'm guessing with all the swapping craze over the LS motors there has to be established support on any computer/tuning issues.
Of course, the headers and mounts would be custom, but I made all that stuff for my 5.0 anyway. The 5.0 is proven to be a legendary motor, so either one would be a good choice.
...5.3L displacement
comes with the best factory heads available
over 10:1 compression
intake and header change gives a huge power boost and you really have to do that anyway
cheap and available
small package size
did I mention it's a GM?
...
The classic battle between Ford and Chevy continues, meanwhile the 350 Buick guys are crying in their milk, about no sp intake and aluminum heads. Meanwhile, lurking in the shadows, the RV8 is waiting for a megashot of airflow, all the better to pounce with. Onward, roverman.
Curtis, I think it comes that way. That photo could have the LS2 intake and does have aftermarket valve covers. But you're right, a gorgeous engine. Won't work with the AA80E automatic though so no worries that I'll swap it for my Buick 340. Dan might go for it though, and I could definitely see Carl going thataway. I think Ford is about to lose their edge.
Jim
Quote: (all in fun)
There are other reasons... (Enlighten me)
It's all aluminum (yes, but so of many other Ford)
It's modern (Not really, the LS series have been around since 1997 and revised 6 times because of engineering defects)
It's efficient (Yes it is, in stock form only, now outdone by the newly designed LT1)
It's a GM (Not really, we'll just call it Obama Motors or Government Motors and China owned, OUCH)
The only mistake that Ford made is to built a modular super engine that's too wide at the top for our application. However, lets stick with comparable cubic inch displacement, again Ford wins hands down when using the same V-8 displacement such as 4.6 Liter, 5.0 Liter (Coyote), 5.4 Liter and etc,. They simply can breath more air in when naturally aspirated.
All of this makes for good old time rivalry between one American company and two co-owned (LOL). Technology is now advancing faster than we can discuss it on these forums. The V-8 is the preferred engine (power source) only because of its unique exhaust tone. I'd like to chose a four banger conversion to shame all other aspects of a performance V-8 and IMHO, we're already there. Fuel economy, drivability, torque and horse-power can be delivered under pretty small cubic inches; let's call it "cubic inch simulation through power adders". Something like breast implants!?!?!?! :)
Our forum should not try in beating the automakers to the latest and greatest but rather follow power trains a few years behind while showcasing our ability to improve on this not so far distant technology while further pushing our ability to adaptation to clean performance. Personally, I really relish reading about someone like Rob who mixed and matched different performance parts from mixed brand and components from salvage yards and fabricated the missing links; Jim Blackwood is another one that comes to mind when it comes down to transferring technology into these light cars.
I also love to observe any young and talented kid coming around and that shows some engineering adaptation to impress even the most seasoned mechanics on our forum. Finally, what I'm personally looking for is green high performance with great drivability and plenty of aging cars left in circulation to support wild conversions...
My 2 cents
QuoteCan you rotate the intake manifold 180 degrees for a cowl-induction installation?
Curtis, it comes pointing to the back of the engine in the FWD configuration so yes it can be rotated. Just an FYI, the stock LS4 intake was designed to point "rearward" on this particular engine. If you upgraded to an LS2/LS6 intake you would have to so some modification. I've read that the easiest way is to swap out the valley cover to a non-DOD version.
-- Scott
Jim B,Actually you can use the Toyota/Lexus automatic with the Isuzu bellhousing(small GM V6 engine side,Toyota transmission side), The LS2 intake and valley cover swap is better than the stock DOD with its problems to just gain an average of 2 MPG.There are aftermarket blockhugger headers for the LS engine. Ryan modified his Ford blockhuggers by adding 2" to header flange. When you go to the non DOD lifters it is very important to change the oil pump relief spring to the 42lb one. It is a Hi Volume and Hi pressure pump for running the DOD. The racers use it as a Hi performance replacement. I also read about porting the inlet and outlet on the pump to smooth flow and prevent cavitation.
http://www.fieroaddiction.com/LS4/engine.html
Jacques, it's good to see your perspective. We could get into a real good F v C contest right here, couldn't we? But let's not, what do you say? (I think they do pretty good in NASCAR)
The motor is just about old enough now that it's coming up in u-pull yards. To me that's the real benchmark for when a new engine is old enough for conversion use and if we aren't quite there we should be soon. At that point the cost to do a conversion really goes down. It really is too bad the Ford DOHC engines are so darned wide.
I think V8's are here to stay, but if you want smaller displacements, the F1 engines are pretty slick. Don't think they'd have a whole lot of trouble with a turbo'd four, even detuned. And they are very small. Saw a Honda one at the Detroit auto show, it was so cute I wanted to take it home with me.
Jim
You can clean up the stock valve covers and paint them.
IMG_0439.jpg
Here is a picture of 4 barrel throttle body port fuel injection. I think Edelbrock,Holley and Accel do those. Anything that fits Gen III/Gen IV LS2,LS3 or LS6 will fit the LS4. I know Scott wants to keep everything short but if you use a 3/8' spacer on damper/crank pulley you can use Camaro water pump and fancy front assemblies like shown.
fullmastintake.jpg
Give you Ford vs Chevy guys, something new to hate, Gen III Hemi ! Yea baby, 485 lbs, hi nickel block, cross bolted mains and 352 cfm.@ .6" on the intake side(stock). 440cu. in. potential. So far, their holding 1,300 rwhp. How do you like me now ? Happy Motoring, roverman.
NASCAR? Please, now we're comparing apples to oranges driven by their politics. That's why I hardly watch the NASCAR races anymore. Jim, do you seriously think that NASCAR would let Ford enter their high breathing overhead camshaft engine on the track and race? But they do let Chevy race their LS design motors. It reminds me when Ford introduced the Cammer, it was their own version in answering the new and potent Chrysler "Hemi". Following a short visit to the Ford engine plant, NASCAR immediately outlawed the engine after fearing a potential instant winning answer from Ford; however, Dodge and Plymouth also had their one year old Hemi disqualified from NASCAR's tracks. Bill France thought that it would be more profitable to keep winning technology out of their agenda. Although, I do give them a "B" on safety development.
I used to admire the NASCAR mono "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" It now resembles Capitol Hill loaded with countless lobbyist to argue against Goliath NASCAR. I say, lets go back to the old days before Bill France interfered with competitive engineering and where technology won races in the hands of good drivers and not a superstar contest. We may have gotten a marriage between efficiency and performance 30 years ahead of its time if it wasn't of NASCAR's Bill France distorted fear of losing race fans; I sure would have stayed to follow how brands could recuperate from competitor's newly introduced technology..........
Read here on the Cammer story: http://www.musclecarreport.com/muscle-cars.Ford's%20Incredible%20427%20SOHC.001.php
NASCAR is not about R & D, they're about profit. Look at how much NASCAR messed with Bill Elliot and his brother Ernie that could make a head flow like no other could. Oh by the way, Jim you did caution to not enter that NASCAR debate so OK, I'll stop now but remember that you'll often hear me state to compare apple to apple and orange to orange. I've never met any of you guys other than Jim Stuart. but I'm not blind and I have admired some interesting modifications and reasonable engineering sharing among yourselves, but I do think that some of these posting are way outside of the intent of this kind of forum exchange.
Cheers,
Was the T56 ever mated to the small GM corporate bellhousing pattern? (I'm guessing no.)
Jim
http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthread.php/50386-Adapting-T-56-to-60*V6
Not sure if this helps any but he put a t56 behind a gm 3500 v6.
To answer your question Curtis!
"Yes" It has been done flipping the intake 180 degrees....At least it has been done on a Ls7 in a Porsche 911.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NBF5HcXsiI4?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Didn't mean to open a hornet's nest there, sorry guys. Robbie, thanks for the T56 info. Sounds complicated but I guess it's possible, huh?
All I meant with the NASCAR comment was that the LS engines have been pretty well developed. Using engineering based performance standards they seem to compare favorably with F1 which most consider to be the epitome of engine development. Read the following article for the details on the comparison:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm
Now I don't have any similar comparisons of LS or F1 to Ford or Mopar engines but it wasn't my intention to debate the superiority of one over the other because of one simple fact. They don't fit in an MGB, at least not without major work. The point is, given existing technology, availability, cost, size and weight restraints, etc, etc, GM has a winner on their hands with this engine and until the LT1 becomes available to us at a reasonable cost, this is very likely the most highly developed engine that is a practical candidate for these cars. All of the other engines are gradually becoming a bit long in the tooth and it is refreshing to see something this good becoming a viable candidate, primarily because the cost of acquiring what is really a very good engine is coming within our budget range. That's all I'm saying.
Jim
Hey, it's February 26th in Nebraska. This thread is the most exciting thing I've seen in weeks. One thing I've never (ever) understood is how adamant people can be on the whole ford vs. chevy thing. They're engines people, no one offended your sister here. But I'm just weird. If I had a chevy car I'd probably want to put a ford engine in it, and if I had a ford car I'd probably want to swap in a chevy.
I've seen firsthand how amazing an mgb is with the ford engine, I just think it's exciting that there might be another option to consider. I remember circa 2000 when someone would ask one of the message boards about using a sbf they would be roundly criticized that it didn't fit well and the Rover should be used. It took Larry Embrey, Pete Mantell and few others to prove that was bunk.
You are right Ryan, and a few of us even proved a 455 Buick could work. But is it a practical engine for a swap? Maybe not, and the same goes for the Mod and the Hemi, though neither of those have been done. The LS4 looks like a practical swap. If there is any other modern engine of about the same vintage that is I can't think of it. In a way, at least where we're concerned, GM has recreated the small block V8. A more perfect candidate is hard to imagine. It's just up to us to sort out the driveline, mounts and accessories. I think we can handle that part, and when the LT1 gets to us, we'll be ready. If Ford and Chrysler, as well as Toyota or even Hyundai chooses to follow suit we'll try their engines too, if they can be made to fit. That is, unless we all become tired old men first.
Jim
Scott, When your prowling the junkyard look at 96 and up Camaro/Firebird 3800 flywheels. 142 tooth and flatter than the 2.2,3100,3400. Might make the difference between flywheel flanges. I've been thinking once we get the starter figured out, the bellhousing can be any GM 60 degree V6. Just depends on what transmission a person wants. The 142 tooth is small enough to fit in any of them.
So, Jim N, if I understand you correctly, we could use a bell from an Isuzu to use Jim's A650e transmission?
Dan B
I think that at this point and time in the argument, true statements are being debated on emotional perceptions and in honor of brand defending (LOL). Truth to be told, Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler need each other in the name of competition, passion and fun. The perception that I probably projected is that I only like Ford powered vehicles; there's nothing further from the truth, in fact I like all three manufacturers. If God sees me through my health illness, I would love to built two vehicles powered by the LS series package; one is a LS powered Miata, and the other is a 1967-1972 Chevy pickup with a short bed. When it comes down to classic pick up trucks, Chevy does it for me.
Jim, all I wanted to point out is the fact that Ford is still a strong player with an engine that hasn't been produced for almost ten years now but still delivers wins for NASCAR. I often go through the MG photo galleries and I try to look for certain design and execution works of art; there's quite a few winners that stand up to that benchmark. A particular one that I keep admiring and wish that I could measure up to it, is "Dan Master's GT" The engine bay is second to none in look; colors, bodywork, and mechanical presentation all work in harmony to orchestrate a true "eye candy" winner.
I've been told many times that Ted is temperamental but most achieved fabricators tend to be and I must say that he can deliver a hotrod look with a very clean look; something very hard to achieve and envision. The high road that I want to follow has tremendous challenges to overcome if my car is to get any points for clean engine bay presentation, in fact I know that I can't possibly compete, therefore I better elevate and showcase the points of interest of my project, I'll probably fall short on that too. Just think of how many people you know that want to reduce the emission, increase drivability, performance, fuel efficiency, and all while adding creature comfort accessories to their project?!?!
Would it matter if I had an LS motor to execute my design and engineering goals? probably not. Dan is right in saying "built what you like and can afford; it's quite a balancing act. Since I can only afford what I can do myself then I better get my energy up, otherwise one heck of a deal could appear in the classified ads as an abandoned "project for sale"
It is sad to say, but I started this project 8 years ago and at that time the 5.0 Liter Ford was the only hot conversion in style. As you often also read under owner's comment, "don't wait too long as dream are meant to become reality. Strange enough, I also originally had bought with the car a 1987 Turbo-Bird complete drive train with only 45,000 miles and ready to drop in. It had many upgrades such as turbo and manifold, injectors, roller rockers and etc,.. Would I had stuck with that plan, I would have been enjoying the annual camaraderie meetings that I always wanted to attend. Guess what element changed my plan? Yes, "the good old rumbling sound of an American V-8"..........
I'm through interrupting the original discussion on this thread and I apologize for side tracking the issue at hand.
Cheers!
Dan B,Yep, Isuzu Trooper and Amigo V6(also Honda Passport) 30-40LE same as Toyota A340 and Jeep AW4. Probably use the Isuzu flex plate and torque converter too. Isuzu used the GM 2.8 and 3.1 V6 and their own 3.2 and 3.5 V6 had dual bolt pattern bellhousings that might work. I have a picture of one bolted to a GM 3800 V6(same small V6 bellhousing pattern).
117_1767_small.jpg
Jacques, I agree whole heartedly with you, I like all the brands too but certain motors for certain vehicles.
Thanks for the tip Jim! I had quickly looked at that flywheel but incorrectly thought it was a 148 tooth. It looks like a good candidate. The Northstar starter is in stock at Autozone and Advance Auto, I'm going to try to measure one over the weekend.
Thanks!
Scott
Jacques, I get it. 8 years is a long time but this last time it's been almost five for me if memory serves me. Well, if not that long it sure feels like it. And I too am in a somewhat similar position in that I decided to build the 340 Buick, only learning by experience that the 300 is probably a better choice and certainly easier. And now, there is this. Not that I could even consider abandoning the plan you understand, even though I suspect a simple plate would be enough to match the LS to the tranny. Well, maybe I'll just plan ahead to the LT1. (or LT4 maybe?) Or by then maybe there will be something better. I'm sure I'll be very happy with this build, and no doubt you will be thrilled with yours as well. We can never hope to have the very latest newest best thing unless money is not an object, and that's not a world I think I'd want to live in anyway, the reward is much sweeter when it requires a sacrifice.
Jim N, do you have anything showing the other side of the starter bulge for that bellhousing? Looks like Dan may want to go that way with the A650E.
Jim
Will you guys indulge me by answering more newbie questions?
In this photo, if you remove the indicated bolts and the cover they evidently secure, what do you find underneath?
I thought the short answer must surely be "camshaft", but I couldn't imagine why a camshaft cover needed to be so large or why it should require four (or more) bolts.
LS4-flywheelmockup.jpg
Where did Chevy put the LS4's crank position sensor and trigger wheel?
Here's a nice and newly introduced accessory for the LS series fans; pretty nefty I must say.
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/new-products/concept-ones-serpentine-system-for-supercharged-ls-engines/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=concept-ones-serpentine-system-for-supercharged-ls-engines
Jim B, That is the only picture I have but the starter on the Buick 3800 V6 and the Isuzu is on driver side. That is the bellhousing I need for the 4.9 to AW4 ,also a driver side starter. You know you got me to consider the passenger side now. You can notch the bellhousing out to clear the starter nose on that side and just ignore the bulge on the other side or cut and weld where you need it.
That's true. The starter could probably go on either side but for the MGB I think the passenger's side is going to be the best in most cases, even if the bell has to be cut to accommodate it. There may be a few cases where the driver's side is better but that may cause problems with the oil filter. Dan's car being a TR7 has more side clearance, therefore more room for the starter on either side so it could be done either way if the oil filter clears and there is room to change it. I do have doubts about that though. Just keeping that option open since that bellhousing has the bulge in place on that side. But really, since I do have a tig welder it isn't that much of an issue and I can move the bulge and add bosses as needed.
I do think the better approach is the way we've been going with it, because you can attach the starter with a simple bolt-on bracket. Most won't want to mess with welding.
Scott, I'd sure like to see a couple of photos of that Northstar flywheel if you think that will work.
Jim
That 60* V6 bellhousing for the Aisin automatics is only on the 2003-2004 Isuzu Rodeo and Axiom. They come in 2WD and 4WD.
Greg
trooper_auto_transmission5.jpg
(one image deleted by moderator because it had a watermark... )
Greg, Does'nt the older 90's Isuzu using the 2.8 and 3.1 with same flexplate as 2.2 and 3100 with the 60 degree belhousing use the Aisan tranny? Or do they use the GM tranny? Looks like that bellhousing has the starter on the passenger side. That old picture I posted is from your classic Jeep thread. Glad to have you on board!
Nope, that starter pocket is on the drivers side. The Aisin automatic with the V6 appears to be only a two year deal. Before that, the Isuzu V6 came with the GM autobox. The 2.2 always had the Aisin tranny, but the GM based V6's (2.8/3.1) had the GM tranny.
Greg
QuoteIn this photo, if you remove the indicated bolts and the cover they evidently secure, what do you find underneath?
Curtis, good question, never really thought about it but here's a picture that shows. The rear crank seal fits into the cover.
ls1nocover.JPG
QuoteWhere did Chevy put the LS4's crank position sensor and trigger wheel?
The crank position sensor is here toward the back of the block. The trigger wheel is, of course, toward the back of the crank. My engine is a 2006 so it should have the 24 tooth trigger wheel. The 2007 and later engines should have the 58 tooth.
LS4WideShotPassSide.jpg
Regards
Scott
QuoteScott, I'd sure like to see a couple of photos of that Northstar flywheel if you think that will work.
Jim B. did you mean the starter rather than the flywheel? I hope to get to a local parts store this weekend to get some measurements of one. I am curious too. I believe there is a decent chance it could work.
Regards
Scott
Scott, are you upgrading or building a second B? I had no idea you have been researching LS stuff.
Hi Carl, I'm upgrading. I spent the last couple of years researching stuff. I knew I wanted to go to an LS motor. Decided on the LS4 about a year and a half ago and have been planning since then. I'm quite a ways off from doing the conversion though. Just collecting the parts and getting the starter sorted out for now. I have a ton of work to do getting ready for Omaha.
Regards
Scott
Scott, what's your plan for headers?
Looks to me like a starter will fit right where starters are supposed to go just like God intended. ;)
LS4_eng_rear_bottom.jpg
Carl, That is the best picture yet! The 3800 flywheel looks good except 8 holes instead of 6. You could plug and drill it or a small V6 flywheel but, I'm leaning more towards Jim B's idea of a cut down larger LS flywheel. Instead of attaching the ring gear to the flywheel just stack the cut down flywheel on top of the flexplate. If the flexplate is dished it would require a spacer between and longer bolts. You would have to drill the flywheel for the pressure plate for the small V6(S10/Camaro). Spec,Ram,Zoom and Centerforce have HD pressure plates.
Carl, I wondered how long before you got to the party. :-)
Jim
I have three northstar starters off engines for another project.
Two are on brand new engines and one has about 5,000 miles on it. I won't be using them since the engines will be mounted to a Porsche 930 transaxle.
If you need measurements or need a starter let me know.
Kevin
Below is a cut and paste of a post from another forum. Anyone wondering why I get excited about LS engines, please read the short article. 451 hp and 380lb/ft from a junk 4.8 truck motor with an upgraded top end?!? Then it gets wild.
I know this is a " Old Thread" but I just read this artical and was amazed and thought I would share it with everyone. It's from a old issue of Hot Rod mag Sept 2011. The artical was called " The Big Bang Theory" where a team of guys wanted to test just how strong Ls motors really are. Anyway long story short they pulled a 4.8L truck motor out of a junk yard. The only changes they made to the short block was to increase the top ring gap from 0.015 to 0.028. They ported the stock heads and added larger intake valves (2.0in)and upgraded the springs, changed the cam to a off the shelf 228/230 comp cam with a new set of comp hydraulic roller lifters.Then changed the stock intake and upgraded to 75lb/hr injectors and a 102 mm throttle body. naturally aspirated it put down 451hp and 380 lb ft of tq all the way out to 7000rpm.
I know thats not all that amazing but what they did next was, They added a pair of 76mm turbos a intercooler, and blow off valve. After a bunch of runs they increased the boost all the way up to 26.8pounds of boost and made 1,203 hp at the crank for 60 pulls with no damage to the stock internals.
Just thought i would share if anyone has the chance find the sept 2011 hot rod and check it out.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...g_bang_theory/
Of course, that's with an iron block. Most Silverado trucks & ALL 4.8s are iron blocks.
Jim,
I've been watching this thread & lurking on the LS forums for long time. You know I have been talkin 'bout a wider (not quite Jim Stabe wide, though) MGB with an LS engine for years & years. My dad's Miata sitting right next to his '63 B is the main reason for wanting a wider stance. I think it started with the 6" wider MGA that showed up at the 2003 British V8 Meet in Townsend, TN, You can see it here
http://www.britishv8.org/2003-British-V8-Car-Meet.htm
Not sure I'll ever widen my car by 6", but I can definitely see an LS under the hood. Calvin Grannis sure has stoked the fire!
That last pic has me thinking that, at least, one normal, vertical starter bolt may be doable.
Or not.
(Moderator edited post to remove watermarked photo.)
Lots of good info:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/LSPrimer/Part1/
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/LSPrimer/Part2/
QuoteScott, what's your plan for headers?
Hi Ryan,
Well, it looks like I'll be building a set. :) Not sure I'd call what I'm thinking headers, manifold would be better I think. I'm going to try to run them down the side of the engine rather than through the fender wells. I know it's going to be tight. I can measure all I want but I won't know for sure if it's possible until the motor mounts are permanently positioned and the motor is sitting in the car.
Regards
Scott
QuoteThat last pic has me thinking that, at least, one normal, vertical starter bolt may be doable.
Nice find! I'm going to check my block when I get home to see if the same casting is there as well. If it is usable, that may help determine which starter is ultimately the best one to use.
Only take a wee bit of heilarc work to get the second bolt in. (Wonderful thing about aluminum) Getting the surface flat could be done with some delicate work with a large file. (Or a quick cut on the milling machine) A strap of some sort at the rear and it'd be good to go. Might have to shim it a bit depending on how close the bolt holes ended up being.
Carl, those last pages came up blank.
I know of a couple of other MGB's that are 6" wider than stock too. But some people just don't care for flares. The extra track sure does help in the corners though.
Jim
Yeah, I know a 4.8 is an iron block, which you'd want for wild boost. But I'm more impressed by the serious power increases all of these motors show with very, very minor performance mods. I've lusted after a 5.3 truck motor in a volvo 240 wagon for awhile now.
Weird, let's try again.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/LSPrimer/Part1/
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/LSPrimer/Part2/
Should work in both posts, now.
If you weld up where it is angled to be straight across you might be able to use GM's own mini starter for 3400 and 3800 V6. Meant for 142 teeth flywheel. Nose cone is facing wrong way though,meant for drivers side.
983800.jpg
The one for the V8 might work. It may be the same one that we used on the Roadmaster and I used on my 340.
Jim
Here are some pictures that illustrate the starter issue a little better. I forgot I had these. Most of the pictures I'm seeing are a little misleading...they give the impression that there is more of the flywheel available than there actually is. It's pretty tight, FYI.
ls4sideview.jpg
ls4flywheelview.jpg
Instead of taking forever to over-engineer this this starter issue, it's time for some Hillbilly Engineering. We gotta race to win.
Take Scott's mini- starter, offer it up to the block & flywheel (shave that little bump off the block first), then tack TIG the starter housing to the engine block. Fire it up, let's ride! ;)
Interesting starter/block pics. On an iron 5.3, though.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1232749-5-3-starter.html
You guys got to remember the other LS engines have a much larger diameter flywheel. You could use the LS1,LS2,LS3 and LS6 flywheel with the Speedway motors 60 degree V6 adapter and the larger bellhousings and then that F body starter would work. You need a tiny starter to get in close enough to the V6 size flywheel. Another alternative is to use a stock LS4 starter mounted lower on the bellhousing.
The Northstar starter bolted to a plate might be better than the other LS mount. Quite a few broke off.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1267462-starter-flange-broke-cracked-my-block-2.html
Can we get a measurement? Take a framing square and lay it alongside the block and measure out to the ring gear? That will give us a rough idea of the max diameter of the starter. A photo of the square in position wouldn't hurt.
Jim
QuoteCan we get a measurement? Take a framing square and lay it alongside the block and measure out to the ring gear? That will give us a rough idea of the max diameter of the starter. A photo of the square in position wouldn't hurt.
Jim, I've provided that measurement at least twice in this thread. I even have it detailed in a picture on page two I think. Anyway, the ring gear sticks out 1" from the edge of the block for a 142 tooth flywheel and 1.25" for a 148 tooth flywheel.
I got to a parts store last night and roughly measured the Northstar starter. I somehow imagined it to be smaller than it was...being that it lives under the intake manifold. I believe it is a possibility but not one that I will pursue. Here is a picture with some details. Keep in mind these are rough measurements.
NorthstarStarterDimensions.jpg
I'm going to stick with the direction I originally intended on going with the mini-starter. It will take a few weeks but my next step is to get one here.
Just for the record, I wouldn't have purchased this engine if I didn't think there was an excellent chance of solving the starter issue. Now that I have it in front of me I'm even more convinced there is a solution to it.
Regards
Scott
QuoteYou need a tiny starter to get in close enough to the V6 size flywheel
Looks like Scott's mini-starter has good offset. May have to move the holes over in the starter nose, though.
Here's an idea I haven't seen mentioned.......BAS.
Maybe it's not a realistic approach for a big 'merican V8. It's an idea, though. And dreaming up ideas is more fun than turning wrenches in a cold garage on a winter's day!
OK Scott, we still have to factor in the gear diameter of the starter pinion which helps us, and the gear mesh which works the other way.
The starter is going to hit the block at one of two points. Either the starter body will hit the fixturing boss, or the flange will hit the side of the block. To determine clearance, find the distance from the boss to the tip of the flywheel ring gear. You have stated that this distance is 1".
What we are missing then is the diameter of the starter body. Probably close to 3" (making the radius 1-1/2") but we need that measurement.
The pinion at the root of the gear teeth is going to be something close to 3/4" (making the radius 3/8"), and then there is the backlash added to that. So using the unknown, imprecise and probably inaccurate dimensions we have, 1" + 3/8" subtracted from 1-1/2" we see that we have to cut 1/8" off the fixturing boss to get the starter to fit, if the flange clears the block. Better measurements may show that it will fit without modification, or that the starter flange needs to be cut as well.
To determine if the flange will fit, use the same process with a measurement to the block beside where the flange will go instead of the fixturing boss. It may be that the vertical bolted Buick mini starter will fit here without modification once the block flange is built up and drilled.
Jim
Jim,
Sorry for not being more clear on the measurements. The ~1.25" measurement on the photo above was from the root of one of the starter gear teeth to the edge of the starter. The starter body itself was 3" in diameter but the nose/flange assembly measures about 3.25" in diameter right in front of the starter gear. I'll get some additional measurements off the block for you the first chance I get.
Regards
Scott
Works for me Scott. 3.25 - (1.25 x 2) = a 3/4" pinion root and so far everything holds. Cut 1/8" off the fixturing boss, maybe a bit less for gear clearance. With a 2-3/4" starter body no trimming required there. BUT this holds if the fixturing boss is horizontally on center with the starter shaft. If it is not, less or possibly no trimming is required.
On to the snout. My guess, we'll have to grind the side a bit.
Jim
Just to refresh, a starter like this is what Scott was contemplating. Looks very doable.
JEGSPreformMini-Stater.jpg
I found another factory small starter. 1.4kw planetary gear. Would bolt on like Northstar but much smaller. GM Ecotec/Suzuki Forenza:
mpa6724s_1.jpg
LS4startermod.jpg
back20block.jpg
Interesting, any chance of getting dimensions?
Jim
I was interested in what was inside one of these mini starters and found this. It's not very good quality wise and the guy's an idiot. The interesting part for me stars at about 2:50. Turn the sound down. :)
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Scott
I guess you are talking about the quality of the video vs the starter, since we can't tell much about the starter from that mess. Looks like the starter is designed to easily be rotated on its mount. Could be a handy feature.
At this point I would be curious about two things: Whether cutting down the Tilton style mounting block would allow it to bolt directly to the engine block if the right holes were drilled and tapped, and whether the Ecotek/Forenza starter will fit without cutting anything.
Jim
I take it no one thinks that a Belted Alternator/Starter could be coaxed into cranking this engine.
I wondered about that one too, Carl
Interesting idea, and it leads to others.
We had a tractor with a starter/generator. It wasn't particularly good but it worked and even now nearly 30 years later it is in use on Matthew's old go cart where it starts an old Wisconsin engine. Based on that application, look at the speed reduction. To get enough torque to crank over the engine reliably a standard starter uses a reduction of 15:1 or greater. Now multiply by operating speed and 6000 rpm becomes 90,000 rpm. Not many starter motors are going to survive that speed, so better technology is needed.
However, this newer technology already exists in the newer hybrid vehicles in the form of a flywheel motor/generator which can both run the transmission and/or start the engine. I have not seen one yet but here is a link:
http://www.kwikwap.co.za/electrodiesel/docs/DC%20Integrated%20Flywheel%20Generator.pdf
A multi-disc clutch would be most suitable with this arrangement to get adequate capacity in a package that fits inside the rotor.
In the future we will be seeing more and more of these as hybrid vehicles become more common and the manufacturers recognize the advantages of eliminating wear prone mechanical parts. It may currently be possible to find parts from an existing vehicle that could be used, eliminating the alternator in the process. Perhaps one of the larger hybrids.
Jim
We need some CPR here. Where did everybody go? This was one of my fav threads!
QuoteWe need some CPR here. Where did everybody go? This was one of my fav threads!
Carl,
They probably went here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/main.asp
PS: are you coming to the April Fool's Bash on the 30th?
Ha! Such blasphemy! This is a Chevy thread.
I would love to be there Dan, but it is Baseball season. My daughter, Piper, has decided to play a 9th season of Little League, so I'm on the hook to help coach the team again (my 13th year). We will not be practicing during Spring Break, so there is a chance.
Just discovered that a LS engine will fit nicely in an Infiniti G35. Hmmm......
I went to pick up one of these on Monday but didn't. It was supposed to only have 8,000 miles on it but was in a shed at the yard where it had been since 07. Maybe I should have made a low offer.
Dan and clan, unless the ad specifically states, "no low ballers", I almost always do. My experience is most sellers start out asking considerably more, than they will ultimately accept. It will hurt their feelings, even more, if you don't make a counter offer, and just walk. I just bought a "track day car", that had been free-falling, pricewise on craigslist, for some time. I made a 30% lower offer, and settled on 28%. I suspect these LS series motors, will find a lot of future homes, in lbc's. Good Luck, roverman.
No lack of enthusiasm for this here. I've been really busy with work and getting my fender, hood and valence ready to paint...Omaha is only 3 months away!
Although I'm not going to go this route, I was playing around with the Northstar starter measurements I took and sort of mocked things up like this trying to see how it might fit just for general information.
StarterMockup.jpg
I tried to model the diameter of the starter body which is 3" and the larger 3 1/4" diameter of the nose. Also cut a 1" disk which is the diameter of the starter gear on an old V6 FWD starter I have laying around. This is very rough so if it matters to you, you should measure it yourself but with the fixturing boss removed, the oil pan bolt castings on the block come into play in how close the starter can be moved to the flywheel. I don't see how a starter with a 3" diameter body could work with a 142 tooth flywheel. It looks like the only hope would be a 148 tooth flywheel and even then it would be very close.
I hope to get a mini-starter here very soon. I'll post some pictures when I do.
Regards
Scott
QuoteOmaha is only 3 months away!
Oh crap! I haven't touched my car since last fall & now it's time for Little League!
QuoteMaybe I should have made a low offer.
Yep. Maybe go back in a week or so, Dan.
The 215 I've been abusing for the last 12 years spent 15 years in a closet, rebuilt & waiting for me to come buy it for $600.
Scott, The video to me, looks like you can bolt the mini starter to a plate and use a shim as your template.
Here is a photo of the Buick mini starter that we used on the MG-Roadmaster and the 340 SBB. It also should fit the Buick V6 and I think the typical application at the parts store is SBC.
MVC-190F.JPG
The body right behind the mounting bolts measures 2-15/16" diameter. The bolt boss on the inside brings that out to 3-1/8", so it sticks out 3/16" more on that side. Which means we'd need 1-19/32" from the pinion centerline to the side of the block. More measuring would be needed to see if the gears mesh but I think this is a great candidate if you are willing to weld and build up a pad on the block flange then drill and tap mounting holes.
Jim
My mini starter showed up this week. I'll try to get some pictures and measurements posted tomorrow. It looks really promising.
Looking forward to seeing those pics!
The one at the bottom of page 7 costs a little over $100, depending on where you buy it.
Jim
Scott, Did you get a flexplate or flywheel too?
OK, I guess I'll start with the final picture first and explain things later. Bottom line, I'm confident enough that it will work that my next step will be to get a flywheel.
ministarter148tooth.jpg
Here is the starter with the aluminum mounting block off. I measured this with a digital caliper but there are no guarentees. The effective diameter of the starter when placed up to the block is 2.59" and the bottom of the tooth (bottom land?) to the edge of the starter housing is ~.9". The length of the extension on the right is about 1.12". This is important in relation to the fixturing boss and the oil pan bolt bosses.
ministatermeasurements2.jpg
Jim N., I don't have a flywheel yet as I was waiting to get an idea of what size I would need. Probably a good thing. This next picture shows roughly how a 142 tooth might line up. I have a Jeep 4.0 flywheel laying around that is supposed to have the same pitch as the GM flywheels so i traced the pattern and then cut them on my cardboard flywheel mock-up at the 142 and 148 tooth diameters. I know this is very rough but I wanted some idea of what I'm dealing with before spending what I think is going to be a significant amount on a flywheel. Although a 142 tooth might work, and I was really hoping it would for a number of reasons, I don't think I'm going to gamble that it will. I'll be using a 148 tooth, which is what the first picture is depicting. I believe it will give me more options going forward.
142toothview.jpg
This final shot shows what it will look like on the block. Of course I'm not sure yet how far off the block the flywheel/ring gear will be but for sure the starter will be more forward, toward the front of the engine that this picture shows. It also looks like only part of the fixturing boss will need to go. I also think that supporting the starter at the front will be needed. I saw where someone extended his motor mount and used a big muffler clamp to do this...looked like a good idea.
starteronengine.jpg
I'm quite confident if someone were to use a plate across the bellhousing mounting surface, as Jim N. was suggesting, that this starter would work well.
It will be quite a while before I get the flywheel, I hope before Omaha but no promises. If I wasn't married, not that I don't want to be, it would be here next week. :)
Regards
Scott
Scott, looks good! 88-93 S-10 2.8 V6 flywheel is zero balance and 148 tooth. Probably best choice for not only more room for the starter but also all the RWD bellhousing options with the starter on passenger side.
What about this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PERFECTION-CLUTCH-FLYWHEEL-88-93-CHEVY-S10-2-8L-/320867139494?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ab52bffa6&vxp=mtr
Looks pretty good, will the 148 require the bellhousing flange on the engine to be cut away for clearance on the two top sides?
Jim
Jim B, Same bellhousing pattern. RWD S10 and Camaro 148 tooth flywheel are slightly larger diameter(aproximately1/2") than FWD/2.2 142 tooth flywheel or stock LS4 flexplate. Carl, good find on the flywheel!
Will that work? Y'all were talking about the flywheel needing some offset because of the shorter crank?
Of course, a regular length LS crank can be swapped in. Changes things in the front ancillaries, though.
Scott's cardboard mockup on pages 3 and 5 seemed to indicate that some clearancing might be necessary. Doesn't look like enough to be a problem but the edge of the ring gear could be exposed in a finger accessible area. If so, a small cover would be a good idea.
Jim
Carl, the crank is actually longer than the 2.2 by a little less than 1/8" inch. It is shorter than the other LS motors by 3mm in back(the other LS is .400 shorter than the old SBC) and 10mm in front. Jim B, I think its angle or perspective in that picture,also there is a relief for the stock LS4 starter mount. Probably have to fab a sheet metal dust shield on bottom. I don't know if the 148 tooth flywheel will fit in the 2.2 bellhousing or not. The S10 bellhousing has the Chevy pattern for the T5(the one for Carl!). The 84-86 Jeep Cherokee 2.8 V6 and 2.5 four bellhousings have the Ford pattern. Both have passenger side starters. Scott already has the 2.2 bellhousing with driver side starter on his V6.
I shouldn't be disassembling my car any further than it is already but I had to take a look at my 2.2 S10 bellhousing to flywheel clearance. I was pleasantly surprised by what I found.
s10bellhousingclearance.jpg
Looks like the 148 tooth flywheel should fit after all. It will really simplify things for me.
I need to do some research and call some local companies but can anyone suggest an automotive machine shop in the mid-west that does flywheel redrilling on a regular basis?
Regards
-- Scott
Why are you redrilling? Doesn't that flywheel Carl found work?
Jim
No, the the V6 crank flange is different.
I just remembered I had these...they aren't confirmed #s
2.8 Flywheel bolt pattern
Center hole - 1.5"
Bolt center to center - 2.375"
5.3 Flywheel bolt pattern
Center hole - 2.085"
Bolt center to center - 3.125"
Gentlemen,
If you're downloading photos from someone else's website and then uploading them to BritishV8, you're probably breaking the law.
If I notice these violations, I have to delete the photos. I can't leave them on the BritishV8 server. I'm not prepared to defend BritishV8 from lawsuits.
PLEASE stop and think before you post other people's photos here! If the photographer hasn't given you personal permission, don't post.
If the logo of someone's business appears superimposed on the photo (e.g. as a "watermark"), don't even think for one moment of posting the photo here. Those are really obvious copyright violations! It's a flagrant violation of this message board's rules to post watermarked photos here.
-Curtis
Thanks Curtis.
We should be able to do just as well by posting a link to the photo if it is on another site. That way there is no trademark issue.
Jim
Probably me, I posted a few thumbnails that were from EBay or autoparts stores and didn't see the copyright or water mark. Not intentional. I'll be more careful, link and description.
QuoteThe LS engines are not externally balanced.
Much of this confusion is caused by:
1.Chevy zero balances the flywheel and pressure plates as a unit so the flywheel alone may not be zero balanced
2.Chevy refines the balance of Vette engines after they are assembled by pressing small weights into pre-drilled holes in the flywheel & damper as determined by spinning the engine as an assembly
3.Chevy did not refine the balance of Camaros so they will not have the small weights
4.New replacement dampers are zero balanced
5.Used dampers from a Vette may not be zero balanced if they still have the weights installed
6.Aftermarket flywheels are zero balanced
7.Aftermarket pressure plates are zero balanced
So here are a few chooses when modifying your engine
1.To change only the flywheel or only the pressure plate, match balance to the old value
2.To change the flywheel & pressure plate together:
•match balance an aftermarket flywheel/pressure plate as a unit
•when using a new Chevy flywheel/pressure plate, you can transfer the small weights or match balance
Other options include going back to a zero balance damper & flywheel/clutch by removing all of the weight or zero balancing everything, which is as good as a Camaro balance
QuoteNo, the the V6 crank flange is different.
I just remembered I had these...they aren't confirmed #s
2.8 Flywheel bolt pattern
Center hole - 1.5"
Bolt center to center - 2.375"
5.3 Flywheel bolt pattern
Center hole - 2.085"
Bolt center to center - 3.125"
I did not realize this. I thought you were speaking of redrilling for different a clutch pattern. I'm not so sure redilling the crank flange is a safe thing to do. That is, even if you can find someone that can accurately place the exact size holes properly indexed to the crank centerline. Maybe so, they do it for clutches, but we are talking about removing more material from a critical area. Forget a stock bellhousing. Time for a steel blow-proof Lakewood.
Milling down a LS1 flywheel to fit the 148 ring gear may be the way to go.
I talked to a local machine shop about it today and he said he does it with a CNC machine. Cost is somewhere around $150. Seems pretty straight forward. I should look at other options though. Oh, we are talking about the flywheel, not the crank flange...I'm sure you meant flywheel Carl.
The Novak Guide to
Clutches, Linkages & Bellhousings for Jeep® Conversions
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm
Yeah, I meant redrilling the flywheel to match the crank pattern. Not sure I could be comfortable abusing that flywheel.
There is a crank spacer on some LSx that may be of use, as well.
The Fiero guys plug and drill all the time with no problems. Interference fit steel plugs between the LS pattern. LS pattern is Metric equal to 3.110" circle. Do a tracing of your crank flange to verify. You could use the LS flywheel cut down for S10 ring gear with S10 pressure plate pattern drilled,probably cost about the same. Or for $300 you could call LSC for a custom billet; LS crank pattern/S10 diameter for 148 tooth ring gear(you would need a S10 flexplate for ring gear). The spacer Carl is refering to is used in early LSX(Late90's)that have automatics. It would be useful if you used the Speedway Motors adapter and full size Chevy bellhousing(same pattern except one bolt). I like the smaller bellhousing idea better myself though. Scott, remember you will need a HD pressure plate and clutch also, with over twice the power of the little V6.
The auto box is sounding better all the time.....
Don't think so, not in my MG! :)
Auto box, forsooth!
QuoteI talked to a local machine shop about it today and he said he does it with a CNC machine...
So he's done this before? That's encouraging. If I'm reading you right, Scott, you're thinking of re-drilling the flywheel without plugging its original hole pattern. Is that feasible? I'm out of my depth, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is that my local machinist could place the holes accurately. I wouldn't expect him to know finer points of balancing, etc.
A custom billet flywheel for $300 sure sounds like a tempting proposition... How does that compare to your local machine shop's charge and what would the weight difference between the resulting flywheels be? A really lightweight flywheel contributes a lot to the sports car driving experience. You want this thing to rev freely like a chainsaw or a dirt bike, right? "Brap-bap-pa! Brap-bap-pa!"
I'm with Curtis, sounds like money well spent & possibly much safer.
QuoteA custom billet flywheel for $300 sure sounds like a tempting proposition
Sign me up for that! Where can one find a custom flywheel for that kind of money? Frankly, I'd be happy with a duplicate of the S10 flywheel with the LS flange pattern. I wonder if a blank can be obtained? I'll investigate this and the custom flywheel as well. Thanks for adding to the conversation Curtis!
Didn't answer your question Curtis. Yes, the local shop has done it before. He said he usually doesn't plug the flywheel. I'm not sure it would work in this case. I have lots of research to do.....part of the fun in doing something like this.
Scott, Call Tom at LSC flywheels at 1-951-245-6367 and see if you can send him a 88-92 S10 flexplate and LS crank specs. The phone number is old,so if it does'nt work. Email him off the LSC web page. http://www.lscperformance.com/
Here are old pictures of a 4.9 plugged and drilled and LSC billet flywheel.
DSC00899.jpg
100_2697_33.jpg
Looks great, Jim!
Great information Jim!! Thank you!
I talked to Tom at LSC today and he will make a flywheel for me. It will be "custom" so a little more than those he has done before. He wants me to send a sample S10 flywheel to use as a guide. It will be billet steel. I'll try to get it ordered in May. Getting there bit by bit. :)
Looking forward to an update. My fav thread has taken a nap. ;)
From my perspective there isn't much of anything to update. I just got back from vacation and getting my car ready for Omaha is behind schedule, which is surprising. :)
There isn't any lack of excitement to progress on the LS4, just a lack of time until after the meet. I have been refining my planning going forward. One thing I'm going to do is visit the junkyard at some point, find a 2.2 S-10 and actually measure the clutch mounting surface of the flywheel to the bellhousing mounting surface of the block. If I'm going to have a flywheel made I want to make sure that measurement is correct for the S-10 bellhousing that will be used. I'm also in the middle of researching options available for fuel injection among other things.
As things happen I'll update the thread if there is interest.
Regards
Scott
Oh, I think there is interest.
You probably have a bit of leeway on that flywheel face measurement, however much adjustability there is in the HTOB.
Jim
Scott if you can pull this off without a huge amount of jiggery pokery you can be sure that lots of other guys will replicate your work. Consider your project as the beta project!! If I ever do another engine swap project I will consider going with the LS4 if this thing works out. I can see it now a TR4 with an LS4.
Cheers
Byron
A question recently came up about motor mount bosses on the LS4. They appear to be different than an LS1 block but there shouldn't be any issues using what is there. Here is a picture of both sides of the block. Top picture is of the left side of the block, bottom of the right side.
Regards
Scott
LS4MountingBosses.jpg
I will take photos of my ls1 and post up soon to see if there is a difference
. There are some differences, but if you get the plates they make you can bokt up either one I believe.Top photo isdriver side. Bottom photo passenger side. Looks like dip stick hole is different too (right behind the starter). In my photo it is taken out on the passenger side.
Sorry for the sideways photos. My camera in my phone does this because of the pixels count.
20130619_064056.jpg
20130619_064127.jpg
Thanks Calvin!
More LS info:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1075693-my-budget-ls-engine-swap-guide-1500-a.html
That is a very good thread to read Carl....Good find!
Flywheel ordered. Fabrication of the starter mount is underway.
I was going to hold off on sharing this until it was a little further along but decided now was good.
I was able to complete the initial mock up yesterday afternoon. Before anyone asks, I'm not going to use plywood....I was thinking of using maple or oak instead. :)
Here is the mount. I'm going to use angle iron on the right side with the lower bellhousing bolt securing things on that side to the block.
StarterMount1.jpg
Here is a picture of the only modification to the block I believe will be needed. Sorry for the blurry image but this is the rear fixturing boss that is mentioned earlier in this thread.
StarterMountFixturingBoss.jpg
This shows the starter in place. It's pretty close to it's final position but will need to be tweaked once the flywheel is in place. I think it looks like it belongs there.
StarterMountInPlace.jpg
The next steps are fabricating the mount in steel and completing the angle iron brace and shims. The flywheel is still a few weeks away from getting here and the final assembly will have to wait until then. There are, of course, many other details. Let me know if you have any questions.
Scott
Wow, that is fantastic Scott! Can't wait to see the final mount. Are you going to use any sort of an end brace on the front end of the starter? It would add a lot of rigidity if you do.
For maple you might want to see if you can get some burl. The tight grain and complex grain patterns should help to prevent splitting ;-)
Jim
Jim
Thanks. Yes, I'm absolutely going to brace the starter. I'm going to use a 3" muffler clamp around the end of the starter and fabricate a mount using the back two oil pan bolts to secure it to the block. It should be very rigid.
Scott
Scott, Looks Good!
Ran across someone who dyno'd their modified LS4 other day:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123-22.html
About 8 or posts down...interesting numbers.
Hey Scott and clan,
A 5.3 ls engine will come within 10 HP of an ls1(5.7) when you run the same mods or pretty close from what I have read in Carl's post.
I have been seeing 5.3's go for $850 on Craig's list around here. Get an ls6 intake and an ls1 computer, wiring harness, and your off to a new swap with great power potential.
Scott, I don't know if you knew there is a LS4 forum for the FWD cars. Lots of motor info. http://www.gmls4.com/index.php/board,16.0.html
Check out this picture of Bill Gaulin's LS1 in a MGB. He added about 2" to blockhugger headers similar to what Ryan did with his 302 Ford to make them RV8 through the fenderwell. I like the open breather also. I would move those coils off the valve covers, smooth them out and paint them black with silver fins.
100_1596.JPG
QuoteScott, I don't know if you knew there is a LS4 forum for the FWD cars.
Jim, thanks. Yes, I've visited the site many times.
Here's the starter mount in steel. Need to wait until the flywheel is in place before finishing the mount.
LS4StarterMountSteel.jpg
While I'm waiting for the flywheel, I've moved on to the FI harness. Had a fun day at the junkyard last weekend. I'm looking forward to building it.
LS4ECMWiringTBMAF.jpg
The flywheel is scheduled to be made this week so I hope it is here the following week.
Scott
Scott, I found this link interesting. Going from LS4 to LS3/7 MAF and 4" intake. TB on LS1 and LS4 is 78mm,LS2 and LS6 are 90mm. LS2 intake is lower in height than LS1 or LS6 for better hood clearance. http://www.gmls4.com/index.php?topic=2073.0
Thanks for the link Jim. An intake/throttle body/MAF/cam will be phase 2 in a couple of years. I'm going with the stock intake and a 2000+ Northstar throttle body/MAF to start. The diameter of the Northstar throttle body looks like an exact match to the intake, FYI.
On a somewhat related note I had a few minutes last night so I weighed the LS4 with a digital bathroom scale a couple of times and got a rough weight of about 375 lbs. This includes the intake manifold/fuel rail, throttle body and starter...FYI.
Scott, I was in Hastings(book store like Barnes&Noble) the other day and there were 2 books on LS swaps. Not just into other vehicles but parts swap from one LS motor to another. Lots of info. You might already have them or could find them on Amazon. I didn't buy them as I don't have an LS motor but ,thought I'd let you know and others contemplating the swap.
Jim, thanks for the information. I'll be looking into those books. I really appreciate you taking the time to mention stuff like this. It's very helpful.
On a related note, my flywheel is done! Just waiting for it to arrive.
Cool,Scott! I looked up LS swap on Amazon and it showed 3 plus an interesting one on LS performance.
Scott, Just a bump to see what you're up to. Did you check out any of those books, I may buy one today. Most importantly, did you get your flywheel? Just curious.
Jim, everyone
Yes, got the flywheel on Monday but really didn't have time to do anything with it until today. I'll add more detail later but according to LSC, it weighs 17.5 lbs. I'll check that figure later but I'm very happy with it.
LSC_LS4_Flywheel.jpg
Thank you, Scott. Been dying for an update. Now, get that starter bolted on! :)
It's been a while since I've gone into any detail about this project. I'm really having fun with it and learning a lot.
First, I should say the LSC Performance is great to work with. They are very responsive to questions/concerns. It took a little bit to get the flywheel here but Tom warned me when I talked to him in March that summer is a busy time for them and it would take some time to get it done. I found them to be really honest and straight forward to deal with. Highly recommended.
We spoke at length about the flywheel design and decided to exactly duplicate the dimensions of the S-10 flywheel for my application. Now that the flywheel is mated to the motor I think that was a good decision. It lines up well with the starter gear. The face of the flywheel is about 0.1" closer to the bellhousing mounting surface than my V6 flywheel (I'm planning to use the current bellhousing behind the LS4) so I will need an adjustable throw-out bearing going forward. Based upon my starter mount design, it looks like the flywheel could be about 0.1" thicker but not too much more than that otherwise the starter mount would have to be rearward of the bellhousing mounting surface and the bellhousing would have to be modified to accommodate the change.
I did run into an issue when mounting the flywheel. As you can see in the picture below, there is a ridge on the flywheel hub on the crankshaft. Not sure why GM would do this but I had no idea it was there until I started troubleshooting why the flywheel wouldn't go back to the flange. Totally my fault for not looking closer given that this motor was only mated to an automatic. In hindsight, it would have been a good idea to send along a stock LS4 flexplate to LSC. I measured a difference in diameter of 0.0035" between the step and the smaller diameter of the hub. I carefully honed the center hole of the flywheel and it fits snugly now.
LS4CrankFlange.jpg
I did measure the run-out on the hub and got about 0.0035". While I was at it I checked the axial run-out and got 0.003" there. This was without the flywheel bolts being torqued to spec so it will be done again. I'm pretty confident it will be within specs
LS4FlywheelRunout.jpg
The starter mount is coming along nicely. I'm waiting on some longer M6 X 1.00 bolts for the starter to starter block to starter mount surface in order to complete the mount. I started fabricating the starter support bracket as well. I'll put together the details on the mount design when it is complete in a separate post but I am using the starter block as a part of the starter mount. You can see how it's been modified in the picture below.
LS4StarterBlock.jpg
The main reason for using it is it is designed to support outer bearing for the starter gear and any of the shims that were included with the starter. It's easy to work with too. Not being equipped to fabricate something like this is probably another good reason for using what is there. :) The next picture shows the starter gear in it's final position.
LS4StarterGear.jpg
The paperclip is 0.0285" thick and the specification calls for between 0.020"- 0.035" clearance between the top land of the flywheel gear and the bottom land of the starter pinion gear.
That's all for now. Next steps are completing and testing the starter mount. It should only take a few hours to finish it but I'm not sure I'll be able to do much in the next week or two unfortunately. Lots of family and work things going on right now. I'm planning on pulling the V6 from my B for the last time in mid-October and starting the LS4 conversion at that time.
Scott
Looking good, Scott!
All eyes are on this conversion.......
Did some quick testing today. I haven't fabricated the front starter support bracket yet but the starter seems to be pretty rigid as is.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Ej_NCXFNf7o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Oh yeah, looking good, Scott!
Well Done! Scott!
Thanks.
The mount is just about complete. I need to trim the angle iron a bit and complete a few minor details. Fabricating the starter support will be next. I got the muffler clamp for the support but didn't like the way it was fitting/looking so I'm going to go with Jim Blackwood's approach of bolting it to the front of the starter. I think the support is a necessity for this application.
Here are some additional pictures of the mount in it's current state:
LS4StarterMountRear.jpg
LS4StarterMountSide.jpg
LS4StarterMountFront.jpg
You can see how well the starter fits up against the block, looks like it was custom made for this application. It's very compact as well. The only modification to the block that is needed is grinding down the fixturing boss. The starter itself is also unmodified...if you don't count the aluminum block. I think the starter can be removed/replaced fairly easily in the event of a failure...I'll confirm that at some point.
Oh, I did weigh the flywheel on my digital bathroom scale and got 17.4 lbs. FYI.
Scott, You are doing a great job. I am impressed.
Dale
Thanks Dale, it means a lot coming from a person with your talents.
Scott
Excellent.
Jim
Except for painting it, I completed the starter mount finally. I made some final adjustments and built the front support. I actually partially built 3 different designs for the support and abandoned what I ended up using before going back to it. I'm pleased with how ridged the starter is now. Here's a picture of the support.
LS4StarterBracket.jpg
Here's a picture of the completed mount.
LS4StarterComplete.jpg
I got a shot of the fixturing boss and how it interacts with the starter body. I took a bit more off of the section that is touching the starter after this picture was taken. Modifying the fixturing boss like this will allow fairly easy removal of the starter once installed in the car.
LS4FixturingBossClearance.jpg
I'll post more information about the construction of the starter mount once I get it apart for painting.
Thought I would write up the starter mount design/construction and close out this phase of the project. It's really pretty simple. Here's a photo of the whole thing. At the top is the starter with the modified mounting block. The bottom row is the angle iron support then the steel plate and finally the front support.
LS4StarterMountComponents.jpg
The steel plate is 1/4" thick and uses the lower right side (facing the rear of the motor) LS4 rear cover bolts which are 8mm X 1.25 to secure it to the block on the left side of the mount (facing the rear of the motor). The angle iron support top bolt is 12mm and is used to secure right side of the mount to the block as well as the bottom right hand side of the bellhousing. Another 12mm bolt on the bottom of the angle iron support is used to secure the steel plate and starter mounting block to the angle iron support. Hope this isn't too confusing.
You'll notice on the steel plate that there are three smaller holes surrounding the large starter pinion hole. Those match up to the starter mounting block bolts which are 6mm X 1.0. I drilled the existing mounting block bolt holes straight through and got longer bolts so I could bolt the starter/mounting block and steel plate together. You can see the bolts sticking out of the starter block. The bolt holes in the steel plate are bigger than the bolts and this is how the final adjustment to the starter pinion gear to flywheel gear gap is accomplished. I used nuts to secure the steel plate to the starter and then welded them to the steel plate once the adjustment was complete.
For the front support I used some 1/2" square tubing and welded it to some reinforced strap I had laying around. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I started down three different paths with this component before settling on this one. As I look at it now I think I need to tweak it a little to give it a bit more strength. Figures...it's painted now. It did add a lot of rigidity to the whole mount and as I mentioned a couple of times in this thread I think it is necessary.
I wanted to talk a little about the 142 vs. 148 tooth flywheels. The next picture shows how the modified mounting block mates up to the block.
LS4StarterBlock.jpg
With a 148 tooth flywheel there is plenty of wiggle room to get the starter and flywheel adjustment to spec. A 142 tooth flywheel will require an additional 1/4" to enable the same adjustments. As you can see from the photo there isn't enough meat on the mounting block for another 1/4" so if you were to use the same starter it would mean that you would have to modify the block. I don't have a picture of this but it would be problematic going into the block because the LS4 rear cover ends right at the block in this area and a 1/4" there would be into the rear cover gasket. You could try going up into the bellhousing mount "tab" but I'm not sure you could get close enough to the flywheel ring gear with this approach. Bottomline, I don't think the starter used here will work with a 142 tooth flywheel. The only other option would be to find an even smaller starter.
I'm sure I'm leaving out a million details so feel free to ask questions if you have any and I'll try my best to answer them.
Tomorrow morning I'm going to start pulling my V6 and begin the LS4 conversion. I'm thinking about starting a journal to document it. Should I continue to use this thread instead? I'm interested to hear what you think.
Scott
Scott this is great stuff. I think you should continue to use this thread then the thing does not get disjointed.
Keep up the good work and give us lots of pictures.
It would be great if you could document all the steps for converting these engines. Of particular importance is the engine harness and ecu being that these engines have this DOD system.
Cheers
Byron
Scott, Looks Good! Maybe you could tie in your front mount with the threaded hole above the starter. As far as the fixtureing boss, I would completely remove it. It was used by the factory to hold the block for machineing.
Thanks Byron. I'll go into more detail about this later but I won't be messing with the DOD. My understanding is it is difficult to get it to work properly in a conversion anyway. Also, I'm using an 0411 PCM which has no support for DOD. I'm not doing this to improve my mileage. :)
Jim,
Thanks for the suggestions. The fixturing boss has pretty much been removed at this point. That threaded hole on the block is where one of my knock sensors will be living. I'm actually pleased with how the front support turned out even though it might not sound like it. I was in a rush to get it done. It's going to do the job I need it to do.
Scott
Yeah Scott, Those DOD lifters make me nervous with the plastic part and little spring above the lifter to gain about 2 MPG. I read somewhere you can replace with LS7 lifters and boxes and use stock pushrods. Plug the DOD oil passages in the valley. Use LS2 valley tray. They recommend the 42lb newer style shielded relief valve and drilling drain holes in the lower center of the lifter boxes to help oil drain back. If your LS4 was before they added steam balance lines you ought to add them also. I personally think going to a older style PCV system would be worthwhile also. Those tiny little stock lines plug up and cause problems. The main issue of the LS4 you solved with the starter. The others are minor. You're a trailblazer Scott! Now, the rest of you guys go out and get your cheap LS4's before the price starts going up.
I'm waiting for them to start showing up in the pick-n-pull!
Jim
While we are patiently waiting for another update from Scott... Here's an interesting, info filled LS page:
http://www.fbparts.com/ls_general_charts.htm
Since this thread is engine specific and my project has moved to the conversion phase, this is going to be a "close-out" post for me in this thread. I believe the MG Forum is the proper place to document an MG build. I'll still answer questions and contribute if I feel I can make a contribution but won't be posting progress here any longer. Please go here if you're interested in following this thing.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,41895
It might not look it but I've made a lot of progress over the past couple of weeks. The V6 has been pulled and the engine/wiring/ECU/headers/mounts are sold. Looks like I'm committed. (my wife thinks I should be committed. :) )
For those who may have wondered, the S-10 bellhousing fits nicely over the 148 tooth flywheel. To me, it looks to be about the smallest RWD bellhousing with the small GM pattern so I think the odds favor the other bellhousings working with a 148 tooth. For some reason, GM put a bellhousing dowel for the "big" bellhousing in the LS4 block and it required some minor grinding in order to get the small bellhousing to mate properly...not a big deal.
LS4Bellhousing.jpg
LS4FlywheelinBell.jpg
Oh, in the above picture, you can see the edge of the rear cover..the thing with the tab. I mentioned in my previous post about grinding the block to fit a starter to the 142 tooth flywheel. This will give you an idea of what you will run into if you would attempt to do this.
One thing I haven't discussed are some of the little LS4 details I ran into when researching which LS motor I was going to use. I'm not sure if the following is internet legend and has been blown way out of proportion but there supposedly were issues with the DOD in the LS4. The problem as I understand it...correct me if I'm wrong...was when the engine was in DOD mode, too much oil was directed at the cylinders and over time this caused the oil control rings to get gummed up and stuck causing oil consumption. The factory came up with a procedure where they put some kind of solvent in the cylinders that was supposed to loosen up the gunk and free up the rings. There is supposed to be an updated pan gasket that reduces the amount of oil directed at the cylinders and corrects the problem. Again, this happened only in DOD mode which is essentially crusing on the open road. The reason I mention this is it might be a good idea to pull the plugs if you're shopping for one of these and check for evidence of burning oil. I don't know how widespread the problem is.
The other thing you might want to be aware of is engines 2006 and older had 24 tooth crankshaft reluctor wheels and 1 tooth cam gears (for the cam position sensor). All LS4s 2007 and newer had 58 tooth crankshaft reluctor wheels and, I believe, 4 tooth cam gears. This makes a difference if you're going with a factory computer. The popular 0411 PCM won't work with the later motors unless you get a module to convert the 58 tooth signal to 24. I believe MS3 will work with both signals. Not a huge deal, just something to be aware of.
I think most of the other stuff has been mentioned at one time or another in this thread.
Regards
Scott