Engine weights are always coming up for discussion and validation. I've just weighed my old Olds 215/T5 assembly and am sharing the results for comparison with previously documented weigh-ins.
This assembly includes all components for a drop in (minus carb) - it includes accessory drive, start motor, intake/exhaust manifolds, distributor, clutch, HTOB, aluminum flywheel, T5 and shifter.
Weighed with a crane scale at 428lbs....this compares favourably with Dan Master's 440lb - the difference, probably, being the difference in the flywheel weight.
Oldsweigh-inat426lb.jpg
Graham,
That 440 pounds I got was for the engine alone. The T5 and bellhousing add another 85 pounds. Subract about 5 pounds for the carburetor and we get 520. So with a carb, we get:
BOP/R - 445
MGB - 468
SBF - 525
The BOP/R is 23 pounds lighter than the MGB, and the Ford is about 57 pounds more than the MGB, and about 80 pounds more than the BOP/R. These numbers seem to be in the ballpark of what we've been talking about.
FWIW, the flywheel on most Ford sedans weighs 40 pounds, on the crate engine it's 27. I'm not sure about the various Mustang models.
Great info, Graham, thanks!
Left to right: MGB engine, MGB engine with transmission, Ford 302 long block with no accessories.
MGBvsFord302.jpg
Graham do you have a post which shows what you have done to your grill?
OK, we're on a roll! Let me add some more info (correct me if I'm wrong).
Someone posted on here that Pete Mantell weighed a 215 and a stock MGB engine and got:
215 - 443
MGB - 468
IIRC, Jim Blackwood posted these bare block weights:
215 - 68
Buick 300 - 142
455 Buick - 177
I weighed a bare Ford block and got:
Ford - 127
Now if we could only get some data for the Various Chevy V8 and GM V6 options!
Gary, he bought it from J.C. Whitney. ;)
Engine weights? Last argument on that other forum had the 302 Ford swap lighter than a stock MGB (okay, unbelievably close to stock). Urban myth or fact? I think we all decided it doesn't matter.
QuoteLast argument on that other forum had the 302 Ford swap lighter than a stock MGB
I never said that! I did, and still do, claim that the 302 is only 25-30 pounds heavier than an MGB/transmission/overdrive. I've always said it's about 50-60 pounds heavier if you don't include the OD on the MGB combo.
I think it's only fair to compare a 5 speed to an overdrive, but that's just one opinion.
I can't help but feel that there is still too much conflicting information published on engine weights....I don't know what to believe.
eg. From what I've understood over the years from reading published specs is that the weight of a SBF is 460lb and a SBC is 540lb...here's a typical chart on SBF longblock engines that somewhat reflects the Ford values.
http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=131
...compare these with Dan's long block weight of 525lb.
Then if we start adding for engine accessory trim parts and subtracting for aluminum heads (-50lb) and aluminum flywheel (-15lb) things get even more confusing. Aluminum heads and flywheel brings the weight within stock MGB engine territory (or does it?)
The next time I get to pull my SBF out of the chassis - I'll be doing some weight comparisons to satisfy my curiosity.
QuoteI think it's only fair to compare a 5 speed to an overdrive, but that's just one opinion.
I would agree, but I can't. :) Most MGBs did not come with overdrive.
Quote.compare these with Dan's long block weight of 525lb
Graham,
The 525 I quoted above was for the engine
AND transmission! The complete engine alone weighs 440. The bell housing and T5 weigh 85 pounds. One factor that accounts for the 460 pounds usually listed vs my 440 is the flywheel. Many OEM 302 flywheels were 40 pounds; the crate 302 flywheel is only 27. That acounts for 13 pounds. The other 7 pounds could be accounted for by the starter.
QuoteI would agree, but I can't. :) Most MGBs did not come with overdrive.
Carl,
As long as we agree on what we're including! Apples to apples, and all that.
FWIW: I bought a junkyard 302, pulled it apart and weighed all the components seperately. When I bought my crate 302, I added the weights of the components that were included to get an estimate of what the crated package should weigh. When I got the crate, I unpacked it and weighed the packing material. I subtracted the weight of the packing from the bill of loading weight to get the engine weight, and the figure for the engine matched my estimate to the pound.
Naturally, any individual engine weight will vary depending on what ancillaries are included - there can be a ten pound difference for example between a lightweight starter and an OEM starter.
Those bare block weights can easily be off by 8 lbs if the main caps are not included (or if they are). The weights I gave were with the caps included.
Dan, do you recall where you saw that 68 lb weight for the 215 bare block? Up until now I was quite certain it was 60 lbs.
Another item people forget is the pressure plate and clutch. Good bit of weight right there. I do think there are a few light weight pressure plates available, most likely racing parts. The damper weight can also be significantly different.
I'm greatly surprised by the difference in the weight of the SBB bare block and the SBF bare block, given that the assembled engine weights are within 5 lbs +- of each other. Were the main caps included in the weight of the Ford?
I wish I had the platform scales when I measured those weights. Not that I suspect inaccuracies but it would have been easier and more convenient to get good repeatable numbers. However I also suspect the 142 lb figure for the 300 bare block because I think I had a 2 lb difference between the 300 block and the 340 block with the 215 being 60, the 300 at exactly 140 and the 340 at 142.
Jim
QuoteDan, do you recall where you saw that 68 lb weight for the 215 bare block? Up until now I was quite certain it was 60 lbs.
You are both too high. I have a bare 3.9 Rover block in my garage. I can easily pick it up with one hand & carry it around. Feels more like 40 lbs. bare.
Jim,
I was thought I was quoting you on the 68 pounds, but if you say it's 60, then 60 it is (unless Carl tosses his on the bathroom scales and gives us another number).
There is a YouTube video somewhere showing a huskily built young gent picking up a BOP/R block and carrying it around to show how light it is. I'm 5' 6" and 135 pounds, but I'm able to pick up a Ford block from the floor and set it up on the workbench, so it's no surprise that Carl can easily heft the aluminum block, even if it does weigh 60 or 68 pounds.
The 127 I quoted for the bare 302 block did not include the main caps. I weighed them separately and got 7 pounds for a total of 134.
We're getting there - we're slowy zeroing in on the actual numbers (allowing for the obvious variances from one engine to another).
Dan, was that with the bolts? Could be another pound right there, so maybe 135? That is 5 lbs less than the 300 at 140 and matches perfectly with finished engine weights I think. Since the 300 is a skirted block that is where the extra 5 or 6 lbs went.
Without the caps I think the 215 weighs 52 lbs more or less. Maybe Carl can do it but I don't think I could tell the difference between 40 and 52 on something that big.
Jim
Jim,
That did not include the bolts. I put all the nuts, bolts, washers, and plates in a plastic bag and weighed them all together - 11 pounds. I'm not sure now what the "plates" included. That was about 18 years ago, and at 72, my memory doesn't include anything that happened less than 50 years ago.
WOW, I'll have to re-check my engine (331 small block Ford late model 5.0 liter block) and also my scale as it comes under 500 lbs fully dressed with an aluminum flywheel, GT-40 intake manifold, March pulley system and light weight internal rotating stroker kit. The lightest SBF made is the 5.0 Liter and if you've built an older block some can be as much as 35 pounds heavier. I'll weigh and take photos of my engine prior to installing it in the engine bay and I'll post the exact figure. Does anyone have a spare $3,500.00 for a Dart aluminum 302 block (LOL)........
Oddly enough that seems to be pretty reasonable for an aluminum block. The TA block for the BBB runs close to 7 grand I think. Of course, it is quite exceptional.
Jim
Dan, I might be just under 6' 2" but I only weigh 180 lbs. My best bet is to just outrun all the big bruisers on this forum. That I can probably do.
That said, I thought I was wrong once, turned out I was only mistaken. Crap! I hate when that happens.
I weighed the 3.9 block on a digital Soehnle bathroom scale (German precision since 1868). I was shocked. That 68 is real close. I got 62.3 lbs on a bare block with no main caps. When I find the caps, I'll stack them on the block & weigh again. I have some heads I can weigh, as well (along with intakes, stock 215 carb, 215 exhaust manifolds, dual path tranny, 454Chevy bare block, etc... ;)
Yeap, I was off a couple of thousand dollars, however I'm still up for donations :)
http://www.roushyatesparts.com/parts-p/dart-31344285.htm
Hey, I can dream can't I?!?!?!
$5500 to save 80 lbs or so. There are much cheaper ways to do that...including swapping in an LS1. ;)
I've been losing sleep over the math content of this thread – something doesn't add up!
With reference to my first post indicating my measured the BOP/T5 weight was 428lb and Dan's response for his BOP weight
Quote- That 440 pounds I got was for the engine alone The T5 and bellhousing add another 85 pounds
With reference to my second post indicating that a typical published SBF weight is about 460lb
Quote...compare these with Dan's long block weight of 525lb...
To which Dan replied
QuoteThe 525 I quoted above was for the engine AND transmission!
..so doing the Ford math, subtract xsmn/bhsg weight from 525 yields an engine weight of 440 – same as BOP
So ya see Carl, Dan IS saying that the Ford weighs the same as a BOP...
....now I can go back to sleep!
QuoteSo ya see Carl, Dan IS saying that the Ford weighs the same as a BOP...
....now I can go back to sleep!
Graham,
Not in your wildest dreams. You are still asleep. Must be sleeptyping! :)
Maybe it depends on whether it is a 215 block or a ... what was it Carl? 3.9? So if a 3.9 is 10 pounds heavier maybe a 4.0 is 20 or a 4.2 is 30 or... by the time you get to 5.0 they'd be the same wouldn't they?
Jim
My understanding is that there is a little bit of weight difference between the Buick 215 block & the late Rover 3.5/3.9 etc.
I think that we should all agree to what should be on the engine and what series, such as the late Ford 5.0 Liter which is 35 lbs lighter than some earlier blocks. Too many apples and oranges being compared don't you all think? although, it would be real sweet to have the SBF come closer to the BPO weight.
In the final analysis, aluminum is "still" 1/3 the weight of iron/steel. This also lends a different sound signature to the Rover, some say more pleasant . Onward, roverman.
I saw a post somewhere showing a Rover 4.6 weighed the same as a Ford 302 with aluiminun heads, but I have not been able to find it again. The poster claimed to have weighed several Ford and Rover engines...
But some things to consider:
Except for the block, the materials in a 302 with aluminum heads are the same as for a Rover v8.
The bare block weight of a later 302 is 124 pounds.
The Rover block has substabtial iron parts: cylinder liners may be comparable in weight to the thin wall Ford cast cylinders; the cross bolt Rover main caps are substantially heavier than the Ford main caps, the Rover block has more material being that the block is a "deep skirt" design while the Ford block ends at the crank center line, the aluminum walls of the Rover block are thicker than those of the Ford block, and there is a layer of aluminum around the cylinders while there is no comparable structure in the Ford.
A Dart aluminum block for a Ford 302 weighs 90 pounds (also costs over $4,000).
I believe the Rover crank is substantially heavier rthan the Ford crank (longer, longer stroke, internally balanced).
Therefore, it seems reasonable that the Ford 302 and the Rover 4.6 are close in weight. But a 215 is probably lighter. Also, the new Ford Boss 302 block (push rod version) is substantially heavier than 124 pounds.
OK, I'll "fess", this why my rover block is lighter than the iron ford block....I cool it with liquid helium ! Yes, it's heavier than a balloon, but you get the idea ? roverman.
> I saw a post somewhere showing a Rover 4.6 weighed the same as a Ford 302 with
> aluiminun heads, but I have not been able to find it again. The poster claimed
> to have weighed several Ford and Rover engines...
I don't believe it. I've got both Rover 4.6L and Ford 5.0L short blocks here
that I can weigh but just lifting them to move them around the shop, the Ford is
heavier. I also have aluminum and iron Ford small block heads that can be weighed
but the aluminum SBF heads are heavier than their Buick/Rover counterparts.
> The bare block weight of a later 302 is 124 pounds.
> The Rover block has substabtial iron parts: cylinder liners may be comparable
> in weight to the thin wall Ford cast cylinders; the cross bolt Rover main caps
> are substantially heavier than the Ford main caps, the Rover block has more
> material being that the block is a "deep skirt" design while the Ford block ends
> at the crank center line, the aluminum walls of the Rover block are thicker than
> those of the Ford block, and there is a layer of aluminum around the cylinders
> while there is no comparable structure in the Ford.
A friend weighed a bare cross-bolted Rover 4.0L/4.6L sand cast block at 63 lbs.
With caps and bolts it was less than 73 lbs. The die cast 2 bolt main 215
block is lighter still.
It is possible to build two different Rover/Buick V8's that differ by
50 lbs or more but, if you do you homework, you can come up with an engine
that's under 300 lbs ready-to-go. Nearly everything is lighter than a SBF.
A bare Buick 300 head is 13 lbs (18 lbs assembled). The die cast GM bellhousing
is 6 lbs. My Huffaker intake is 11 lbs. My aluminum flywheel is 20 lbs
lighter than the original iron flywheel (31 lbs versus 11 lbs). A mini
starter saves a fair bit, especially compared to the iron-nose GM starter
(a Mcleod starter is 9 lbs versus 17 lbs for the aluminum nosed GM starter
and the iron nose GM starter is even heavier). The die cast Buick blocks,
bellhousings, and heads are all lighter than their sand cast Rover
counterparts. For instance, the die cast GM bellhousing is 6 lbs lighter
than the sand cast aftermarket bellhousing I have. A Carter AFB is a
bunch lighter than the iron base Rochester 4GC or the Rover twin carb or
fuel injection set-ups. The thin gauge TR8 stainless steel headers are
lighter than any of the cast iron manifolds. The stamped steel GM valve
covers are lighter than the Rover or Offy cast aluminum ones. Buick
valve train is lighter than Oldsmobile (aluminum versus steel rockers),
the GM balancers are lighter than the Rover ones. The brackets on the
Rover V8 are aluminum and the TR8 uses the small GM rotary A/C compressor.
You can lighten the crank and reciprocating assembly, port the heads, etc.
It all adds up.
One of these days, I'll weigh everything out and make a big list.
For now, here's a few numbers:
Aluminum Buick V8 (215 and 300) weights:
Mcleod mini starter - 9 lbs
GM 215 starter - 17 lbs
Bare aluminum Buick 300 head - 13 lbs
complete Buick 300 head (shafts, stands, rockers, bolts, plugs) - 18 lbs
Buick die cast bellhousing - 6 lbs (without access cover)
aftermarket sand cast bellhousing - 12 lbs
Buick iron flywheel - 31 lbs
stroker iron flywheel (modified Monza V8, use with Buick 300 crank) - 23 lbs
aluminum flywheel - 11 lbs
TR8 alternator - 12 lbs
Buick 300 exhaust manifolds - 23 lbs (pair, 11 and 12 lbs individually)
Buick dual plane 4 bbl intake - 11 lbs
Edelbrock 2x2bbl dual plane intake - 10-11 lbs
Edelbrock Performer Rover dual plane 4 bbl intake 13-14 lbs
Huffaker single plane 4 bbl intake- 11-12 lbs
Timing cover w/ oil pump - 5 lbs
Buick 300 crank with balancer - 49 lbs
The earlier Ford 302 cranks that use a 28.2 oz-in balance factor are around 40 lbs without
a balancer. The later 5.0L cranks that use a 50 oz-in are maybe 4 lbs lighter.
The aftermarket stroker cranks are generally heavier.
Dan Jones
Thanks Dan, concise as always. This reflects back to that British born ,"How to build a V8 MGB". The subliminal and otherwise warnings that if you increase front end weight, youll likely drive right off a cliff,(sort of). Zillions of cars have been built with less than 50/50 weight distribution, ie. TR7/8s, Sunbeam Tiger, etc, etc. They all seem to handle quite well, once they are properly sorted, suspension, wheel/tire wise. Some would contend, you could even plop a 455 monster Buick, into one and "still" have good handling. Engine weight is only part of the succesful build formula.
50/50 static distribution isn't a very ambitious goal... 50/50 is where you want to be under heavy braking, right? I hope to get my GT down to 2000# wet, even with heavy accessories such as a full roll cage. Much more doable with a Buick 215!
The Rover engine needs all the help it can in being lean and mean in order to keep up with Ford muscles; OMG, did I really say that?!?!?! :)