Well for a long time my wife wanted a MGB for her then it was a Mustang but this past weekend she found a Alpine and fell in love with it.
So now I have a Alpine sitting in my shop in need of a conversion. She doesn't want a fast car and I dont really want to do a V-8 I have read about and looked a little into the 2.8 Ford V-6 (Mustang II) swap but that is way old and hard to find stuff, so anybody have knowledge of a differant swap maybe a modern 4 or V-6 I am looking at a 2.2 chev I4 at the moment and a little into the Ecotec 4 but any ideas would be helpful
Thanks
Joe
Has your wife indicated a preference for an automatic or a standard transmission as this will dictate your choices.
The Ecotec is an excellent choice and the bone yards are full of these engines. If you could get one from a Pontiac Solstice it would solve the issue of bellhousing and transmission. Your other option is to get a bell housing from Quads For Rods and hook up a Gm transmission to it. Just google this outfit and see what they have. They also make bellhousings for the Ford Zetec engine also so you could consider this as an option. If you don't like the idea of EFI this outfit also makes conversion kits to go to dual Weber carbs.
Another option is the GM 3400/3500 V6 and you can get the parts to convert these engines to RWD quite easily, just check British Car Conversions and you will see that these engines work quite well in MGB's. I have read that these engines do not fit the Alpine as well as the Ford 2.8 but I am sure these obstacles can be overcome.
Cheers
Byron
It will be a stick do you have any idea what the guys using Ecotecs are using for EFI management, Mega squirt or someone has the factorystuff figured out, if i was to go GM 60 deg v-6 I will use a RWD set up
Joe, The reason the older 2.8 V6(up to early Ranger's) fit so well is the Alpine steering. The GM V6 wont work unless you go to rack and pinion. There are some Toyota and Nissan 4's and Ford Zetec and Duratec swaps. I have a 65 that I'm putting a Ford V8 in. Check out the SAOCA forum for more info.
Joe in regards to the issue of the engine management system in the Ecotec you should google The Bowtie TR6 website. This guy has put an ecotec from a Solstice in his TR6. His cousin has put an older Ecotec in his TR4 so you can e-mail these guys through the Bowtie website and maybe they will give you some help on the issue of the electronics.
Cheers
Byron
I have the 2.8 v6 in mine and am considering swapping it for a duratec/mzr 2.5. Bill on the saoca forum has the 2.3 duratec and it fits with a ranger trans. I believe the miata trans will bolt to the duratec and comes in both 5 and 6 speed, but I don't know if it will fit in the alpines narrow trans tunnel. Quad4rod makes a bell from the duratec to t5, but it had to be a v8 or 4 cyl ford t5. The 2.8 would be the easiest route to go as you cAn get a kit from Jose and its been done many times before. With the duratec or any 4 cylinder dohc you would have to make your own intake and headers and use megasquirt or some other stand alone system. I have the 2.8 with every bolt on possible and it gets 110 whp and 139 wtq on a mustang dyno. The Mazda 3 guys get about 155 or so whp and 160 wtq with only a cai and catback exhaust. The 2.8 with about as much as you can possibly do to it and be streetable only gets you about 180 whp from what I've seen on some Capri sites, and that's a lot of cash to get that. Plus the duratec is 100 pounds or so lighter. With the 2.8 I have about 54/46 weight distribution. The gm v6 I think is heavier do it would make the balance even more off, plus as mentioned before, you would have to redo the entire steering system. So to sum up, 2.8 is easiest and fastest and will give you 2-3 times the alpines original power. It makes a quick and fun car, parts are still available but are getting harder to find. Mine gets 20-25 mpg no matter how i drive it The mzr 2.5 with 2.0 head with intake and exhaust seem to be making a miata get to 60 in just under 6 seconds from what Ive read on a miata forum and the alpine is a little lighter. If I decide to swap I may have my whole drivetrain for sale ready to drop into an alpine with all mounts and brackets.
Isn't rack and pinion steering a pretty high priority upgrade too?
You can retrofit a MG Midget rack to the Alpine crossmember and get better geometry and Ackerman than the Tiger steering. Though the turning circle is larger. The stock Alpine steering works fine for the 2.8 Ford V6 and most 4 cylinder motors. It gets in the way of other swaps. The tie rods and center link swing through the rear of the engine bay.There are a couple of expensive aftermarket crossmember rack and pinion solutions. I am designing a simpler alternative, much less expensive setup.
The only thing wrong with alpine steering is all the moving parts take up a lot of real estate in the engine bay. A rack setup would open it up to a lot more engine choices but the few available are $5000 and up.
Another idea for a swap is a Misubishi Eclipse motor. You can use the Starion 5 speed and bell, or Mazda B2000 bell(had the SOHC version for a few years)and trans(or RX7 with B2000 tailshaft) or Jeep Liberty bell and Colorado/Canyon 5 speed.
A guy on the sunbeam forum did a mitsu engine and he had to leave off a fender. Race which apparently is a bad idea. The duratec has the injectors in the head, so you just have to make a plenum with the throttle body on it fit, you don't have to worry about injectors out there. I'm not sure of what the injector setup is like on the mitsu.
Wow
Guys thanks for the help, I was hoping the Gm V-6 was an opsion as I have one I may still set it in to look it over.
Not really looking for power this is for my Wife and MPG are more important to her.
If I need a spirited ride I have my B with 5.0
I have registered for the Saoca site but have not been let in yet been a couple days already.
I was looking into a steering crossmember change because of the goofy set up that it has but everybody says they drive ok so why go through the work and $$$
I was against the 2.8 Ford because almost exstinct but may have found one tonight so maybe, I assume Jose kit doesnt fit the 2.9?
I will check on the site for the tr4 & 6 Ecotec info I think that is worth exploring
Sorry getting tired
Joe, The 2.9 has a different exhaust manifold head pattern that the steering would interfere with. Robbie, I think the Mitsubishi swap used the stock EFI intake. If you make a custom one (like Bill Blue's) or independent motorcycle throttle bodies would work. Here is a link: http://projectzerog.com/transmissions.shtml
I think there's almost 3 inches between the head and steering box/ brace/ master cylinder to fit throttle bodies, fuel injectors, etc into.
Make sure you get the timing cover, water pump, flywheel, and bellhousing for the Mustang II 2.8. The rangers won't fit, but you'll need the rangers rear sump oil pan and pickup. The T5 from a 3.8 mustang is what I'm using for the transmission. To register you may have to use a different email address. I know on a few forums I tried to register on, I never got the confirmation email using my hotmail account. I used a different email and it worked right away. That was on at least 4 different forums.
I received my conformation E-Mail and it tells me I am Registerd but waiting for the administrator to approve or something like that, I also E-mailed someone on the list of but still nothing.
Is there a complete list of Parts needed for the 2.8 swap listed on the Saoca site? I did look at a 2.8 today they are indead a small motor.
Joe
Everything I listed, Jose's kit, a Wilwood pull slave, I think the radiator modified and the thermostat housing modified. Make sure you use a new thermostat because that's probably the hardest thing to change once the motor is I. It took me less time to pull the motor than it did to change the thermostat. It's in a VERY tight place. It's a fun car with the conversion and the 2.8 is reliable. I suggest getting an all metal timing gear before you put the engine in and it will run for a long time. Go to YouTube and search for my username If you want to see some videos of one.
Robbie
I will check it out and thanks for the list.
I have been accepted at thye Saoca so I will be on there as well now.
Joe
I am looking at putting the 2.2 Gm 4 cyl from a S-10 in. Not very exciting but I think I can get everything I need from 1 Donar Vehicle, keeping costs down, again this is for my Wife and she is more interested in the MPG than performance. But the 2.2 is still over 100 hp much better and more modern than the Alpine set up.
Also there are Turbo kits available for that engine if power became an issue.
just because you can get it for cheap doesnt make it a good candidate measure the width carefully i think youvonly have something like 21" wide to fit everything into thats what makes a newer 4 cyl easier to work with... the injectors are in the head, so you dont have to try to build an intake with the fuel rails, injectors,etc in just a very few inches of space im not saying it cant be done but just measure everything realistically before you grt started. you did a swap on an mgb which has a huge engine bay compared to an alpine, so dont assume you will have anywhere as much room as youre used to with the B. over the years there have been many cut up alpines given up to die after someone chopped them way up for an engine and got it in to realize the car wasnt able to turn afterwards and ended up being parted out. If you switch to a rack and pinion, that would open up a whole lot more engine choice. The 2.2 may fit, i dont think anones attempted it before, you just may have to build your headers to go forwards then loop back around.
take a look at a miata/mx5 engine...i just put the 1.6 in my spitfire....if it can fit in a spit-it definitely will fit in an alpine. the 1.6 will give you 115 hp, the 1.8 more....they are cheap, light, modern and with the 5 speed tranny very nice and easy to fit. take a look at the triumph forum-i have a few pics up there. i got my engine and tranny as a package for $400....and there are tons of parts out there to fill in the little bits you will need.
On the Alpine its not really the small engine compartment as it is the Goofy steering. I may look into the Miata motor. So far my preliminary measurment show the 2.2 will fit quite well, of coarse I wont know for sure untill I set one in there and see. I have no intensions to heavily modify this car as it takes a lot of time and effort.
So if this swap wont fly I have located a few 2.8 Fords, just hate using something so out dated and chasing parts from other vehicles that dont exist any more.
Joe
Hi all,
Found this site looking for Sunbeam related stuff thought, I have transplanted a Zetec E 1.8 in to my Alpine I had it setup on twin webers for a short while then converted to ITB injection, not too hard to do if you can find the transmission to mate it to (its a common transmission found on lots of old UK fords dont know about the US). Was fairly simple to fit, quite nippy about 140bhp
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That's a nice install. On the US alpine the steering box is on the other side of the car. Would that interfere with the exhaust with it as low as it is? On the saoca site there are 2 guys about to do the zetec swap also.
Obviously I couldn't say for sure it wont but I don't think so. Just had a look now if you look at the first picture the large hole on the right I assume is where the steering box on the US models would come through, it sits quite close to the wheel arch. In the last picture you can see it under the carbs next to brake fluid reservoir so it shouldn't interfere...
Chris, The Type 9 5 speed is rare over here. Only found in the Merkur. I know you can use the older Pinto bell with it and here in the U.S. the 83-93 Fox Mustang 2.3 bell with the T5. On both the dowels line up and some of the bolt holes. The major problem seems to be the starter fitment. The Zetec has a small high mount starter,while both bells have a lower starter mount. What was your solution? I thought maybe an adapter to use the Zetec starter in the lower position. 95-97 Contour/Mystique 2.0 seem to be most popular donors. Simpler than the VVT newer Focus.
ive always heard from the long time sunbeam guys to not run it without the fender braces on. ive noticed one of yours is missing. have you had any front end shimmy or noticed any other effects from not having it on?"
Hi,
My 67 Alpine has a V6 Chevy with a GM aoutomatic and works just fine. I does of course have the MG rack and pinion. I'm going to put a 302 into it and possibly switch the steering to a mustang 2. The car is running a stock Alpine rearend that I'm switching to a Ford 8" The V6 appears slightly built, but I still want to do the V8. If you decide to go through with the GM V6 I do have some Pinto rack and pinions and a engine/trans/motor mount/drive shaft setup that should fit right into your Alpine.
The only obvious modifications were the tunnel cut out some for the floor shifter, the rack and pinion, Motor mounts, exhaust, and the electric fan to a custom radiator. The guy that I bought it from did, however, wish that he'd have put a Ford V8. The V6 is fine, but I think that the V8 is more in the mainstream though I could be wrong.. Regardless, good luck.
The starter motor fitment wasnt really an issue, the model was a lucas LRS707 and you can either get a different bell house or make a plate to cover up the gaps - I will try to get a picture
I didnt notice any issues without the one brace on - but I am running ITB's now so i have put the brace back!
Jessie
Do you have any pics of your engine bay and maybe anything of the steering? I have heard of the MGB steering conversion but have not seen it or know what all is needed, and how well it handles.
What vehicles here in the states have the ZeTec in them?
I am in the process of locating a 2.2 Gm to set in there for measuremant purposes I think this would be a straight forward swap but not a whole bunch of HP
Joe
Joe, For the Zetec 95-97 Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique and Focus before Duratec(more complicated with variable valve timing and wider oil pan) The rack setup I saw had a step boxed in the front of the crossmember and used the Midget rack with MGB steering arms. You can use 67-69 Camaro shocks front and rear also. There is an article. Here's the link. http://www.tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickAckerman/pt-PaulickAckerman2.asp
Looks like the 2.2 Gm from a 98 S-10 is a go. I located a scrap long block with the NV1500 5 speed attached for purpose of fitting. The shifter comes out in the factory location, the engine fits in the bay and the only issue I have encountered so far is the steering arm hitting the starter solenoid and then obviously the tunnel needs widening.
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The Starter issue I think
can be overcome with either drilling the block for a SBC Mini Starter, That can be clocked to get the solenoid below the steering arm or make a plate to bolt to the engine and install a Ford starter to the plate one without a solenoid.
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Joe, There is a factory mini starter for 3800 supercharged. Don't know if it will clear but it sure is small.
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Jim
I will look into it. yes the solenoid doesn't look like it stands as tall above the bolt flange
ministarter.jpg
This is what I am thinking if I can find one for the Drivers side and 142 tooth flywheel
Thanks
Joe
Joe, The 3400 starter interchanges with the 2.2(mount bolt spacing and gear) the 3800 one I show interchanges also. You could also look at getting a smaller tie rod end too. I know there is a smaller MGB or Mustang II that might work. They are 9/16" thread,not sure about Sunbeam.
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Jim
Good idea on the tie rod ends I will check into that.
If you have that 3800 starter handy can I get a measurment from the center of the mounting bolt holes to the end of the solenoid if not don't worry about it I will go to the parts store and measure one.
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Joe, It isn't my starter but the guy is replacing a 3.4 starter in a Fiero with the Pontiac 3800 Supercharged,and it supposedly intrerchanges with the 2.2. 1999-2001 I believe.
Joe, 2000-2002 2.2 and 99 and up 3400 (more common) mini-starter,probably the same. Bring your old starter to the parts store to compare mounting and gear.
Jim
Thank you for the suggestion Clears by about 1/2" will probably look for something better but This will work
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2000 Pontiac GP 3800 Starter
Joe, Great !, You can cut the lug off with a Dremel a little bit after cable is on, and maybe the smaller tie rod end.
Joe, Google Sunbeam Grassroots Motorsports challenge. Ford Ranger front 5 lug Hub/Rotor. My threads on MGExperience explain how to narrow a 83-92 Ranger rear by shortening one side and using another short side axle(also Mustang rear disc).
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Jim
I will do that I like the front hub conversion as that is in the plans not so sure about that Rack Pinion setup:(
I have seen the rearend trick done a couple times was thinking the S-10 year as I am trying to do the swap off of one donar vehicle but if the ford front hub is a good swap it may have to be a Ford in the back as well.
The rack is similar to the Tiger(bad Ackerman) Alpine steering is much better. The early S-10 hubs will probably work also(same bearings as Ranger). Don't know about newer ones.. You would need to shorten both axle tubes though on the S-10 and use custom shorter axles. I posted on SAOCA board on the Ford Fiesta tie rod ends. That is what Jose uses in his V6 kit.
Tie rod info: http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6735&page=25
Jim
I will check into the tie rod ends After reading some of that I think I am going the correct direction
Thanks for the info on the S-10 bearings being the same, I have shortened a few Rear Ends so thats not really an issue, but just getting a second short side axle does keep cost and labor down, something to think about when I get to that point.
Last week and this week so far have been swamped haven't even looked at the car
Joe
Reconsider what you are about do, Joe. I think the value of the would be much better in the long run with a Ford V8. I can't believe I just said that.
Put a low power 260 in it. After all, some day you will need to get every penny you can for it when you have to buy her that Lexus SC 430. ;)
I have a Nissan CA18DET (1.8 liter. dual overhead cam, turbocharged, intercooled and 238 RWHP) with a Nissan 5-speed and Ford 8" in my Alpine, no cutting, dropped right-in but fabrication of the turbo exhaust manifold was necessary due to the steering box. If you went with the normally aspirated (NA) motor you would have about 140HP and probably get in the mid 30's for economy (depending on gearing) with a 7,000RPM redline; you most likely not have to fabricate the manifold (?) These motors are 20-years old but still available. Another option might be the Nissan KA24E or DE motor (155HP, 160lb-ft), these engines and transmissions are readily available and are 10-15 years old. The Toyota 4A-GE motor could also be an option but these motors were used in the 80's for the AE86 Corolla.
A new kid on the block (Actually an Old Goat) has designed and sells a complete line of components for the Sunbeam Alpine SI thru SV's.
DanR, started a Jose conversion back in 2009 in one of his Alpines (SIV), soon becoming dissatisfied with the design of the kit components, made a decision to build a better mouse trap:)
Engine mounts were the first to take a new look. Instead of sittin' on the backside and nearly hanging off the rear edge, DanR's are firmly fix'd the the crossmember.
Next work began fabricating "new" Headers. The "kit" headers stuck out the side of the Alpine right behind the front wheels causing me trouble routing the exhaust back under the car. I did not like the side pipes sticking out. After about three years "straight back"
headers were finalized, they are tucked inside the framework running along side the engine and transmission, similar to the Tiger system. Road clearance is "Not" a problem, they do not hang down:)
The conversion components developed by DanR have proven to be well designed and durable. Here are a couple of the components available.
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