BritishV8 Forum

General Category => Engine, Transmission, & Rear Axle assy. => Topic started by: jfjfjf2 on February 22, 2012, 11:38:27 AM

Title: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 22, 2012, 11:38:27 AM
I,d like to get a light weight crank made but I need a technical drawing as the people I am asking to quote have never made one before. Does anyone have access to one for the large journal Rover V8?

Thanks,

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on February 22, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
Julian, I suspect "John Eales" and others who make/sell stroker cranks, have drawings. They "may" not be free with them, since you aren't buying crank from them ? Billet crank ? Cast/forged 4340 ? Might be easier to supply them with a sample oem crank. Application ? The Ford Windsor raw forging can be machined to fit, and should handle ALL the hp/rpm you can throw at it.  Good Luck, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 22, 2012, 07:03:13 PM
Art - I'm trying to source an 83 mm stroke lightweight billet crank and combine it with a 97 dia bore block. I thought I'd get quotes from Scat and Crower and see where that gets me. The car is a '94 TVR Griffith which weighs under 1100 kg.

You might be right about having to send oem cranks, I am trying to avoid the time and expense involved in sending two cranks (which I don't have lying around) to the US. I'm sure crank suppliers here in the UK would be very helpful if I was buying from them but those I have seen though man enough for the job are somewhat agricultural. I might know someone with a drawing but they are very hard to pin down, hence the post.

Thanks for your reply.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank(s) ?
Post by: roverman on February 22, 2012, 09:08:36 PM
I am within driving distance of both. Eagle made a crank for a "V8Buick" forum member, off the radar, turned into a BIG OL" MESS !  You aren't going to like the billet prices. Perhaps Scat could be tempted to machine raw ,sbf 4340 forgings into sbb/rover cranks, say (3) ? They have the raw forgings.  With TA heads available, a "few" of the Buick folks would be on board. Jim B., do you agree? According to Triumph Rover Spares,"the Rover will produce 600 hp.", with ported TA heads,all motor. This makes the available cast cranks pretty marginal.  Cheers, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: minorv8 on February 23, 2012, 01:56:39 AM
Julian, have you considered Farndon ?
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 23, 2012, 04:45:04 AM
Jukka - Farndon could supply the correct spec but they don't make anything like the Scat superlight, I know I would get a good crank fit for purpose and I may well end up buying from them but I'd like to explore other possibilities.

Regarding prices Art, this is a very small country and everything is expensive, a Farndon crank would cost c.£2500 or near enough $4000. It's rumoured that TRS are sourcing cranks for the TA heads in the Far East but I doubt they will be any cheaper to the end user than a custom crank from the US. If I had any sense I'd use an LS crate engine but that wouldn't warm the cockles of my heart.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 23, 2012, 07:37:44 AM
I may know something here.....

I'm fairly certain that Ford v8 forging blanks are where most Rover/Buick customs emanate from.

Mickey Thompson used them in his Buick powered desert racing buggies.

I have a Bryant Ford billet sitting in a Rover block which needs some widening on the journals, a custom rear seal & flywheel and some nose work to complete. I suspect someone like Moldex who regularly produce Rover/Buick cranks would modify them with ease.

Byron's twin turbo project B has a custom Moldex billet crank in it.

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on February 23, 2012, 08:26:21 AM
I think one or two of the SBB drag racers are running Moldex cranks. Very likely what you are talking about. I also recently read a post where someone was lightening a crank by chucking it in a lathe and turning down the counterweights. You'd have to get it balanced of course but with light rods and pistons that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Jim
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank and cockles
Post by: roverman on February 23, 2012, 11:44:26 AM
Julian, I can appreciate your not abandoning the Rover V8. 97mm bore? Is this a Wildcat symeese block ? If not, it's likely the sleeves will be wet ? I think the rover V8 is about to have a long moment in the sunshine. With the right material a crank benefits from pendulum cutting the counterweights and hollow boring the crankpins. This removes weight with best benefits. Turning down the counterweights diameter is best for final balancing. I'm not convinced oem Buick cranks will sustain 700-1,000 hp. with any reliability,(but that IS the rumor). Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 23, 2012, 02:57:46 PM
Jim - Thanks for the suggestion, I've emailed them. Art - Coscast block bored as for 96 mm but with thinner flanged liners gets you 97 mm. I forget what they are called, I'll post at a later date with the spec. Re the crank, I'm not seeking 700+ bhp but I would like to have 7500+ rpm on tap and a highly responsive engine. Even if the oem cranks could cope with torque/bhp/rpm demands I want to lower reciprocating mass. I will be using the TA heads and I'd be surprised if anyone else intending to wouldn't be up rating the bottom end. The first crank manufacturer to cater for our needs should pick up business from most US/UK TARV8 head buyers.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, We need a blank-crank drawing.
Post by: roverman on February 23, 2012, 04:08:19 PM
Clan, I have emailed "Bryant Racing Cranks" and Scat. Higher production #'s should favor forged cranks, cost wise.Update, looks like I will be sending a "sample" crank to Scat. A light dampener and flywheel/clutch assembly, will also rev up/down faster. We shall see. roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 23, 2012, 06:01:30 PM
Art - Nice one.

JF
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, let's "forge" a consensus .
Post by: roverman on February 23, 2012, 06:35:30 PM
Let's start a want list. I think 2.5" main size and 2.1" rod journals are good for sbc rod selection, remember hollow crank pins ? Rover 1 pc. rear seal and standard rover bolt pattern. Early or late snout ? I suspect  snout could be later/longer and re-machined, if needed. Grooved mains not needed. Cross drilled-maybe.  Let's go ! roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 24, 2012, 06:04:53 AM
I'll see if I can take a couple of shots of the Bryant crank in & out of the block. It has turned down counterweights and some big plugs of Mallory Metal to achieve balance. Nice hollow crank pins, too.

Going to be 104 degrees in Melbourne tomorrow. I wont be spending too much time in the shed:-)
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: minorv8 on February 24, 2012, 07:42:30 AM
Would a 2" rod journal size be better for stroker clearance. I have a 91 mm stroke (3,58") and 2" SBC Crower Sportsman rods just clears the 4,6 block. Later Chevy rods with 2,1" will not fit without grinding.

John, I am a bit envious since we have 3 ft of snow and 30 degrees in Helsinki. Enjoy !
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 24, 2012, 08:02:51 AM
You're right, Jukka. I shouldn't complain too much based on your weather. I'm looking forward to the F1 GP here in a few weeks & the return of Kimi the flying Finn.

I have a set of 6" Carrillo's with Honda journals. I'm thinking of offset grinding & making the crank 3.7 stroke. With the 3.7 bore, I'd end up around 5.2 litres....
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 24, 2012, 09:14:38 AM
Art - I'd go with the 2.5" mains but would prefer 2" big ends, that's not an area in which I'd like to add weight, crank pin to take Chevy rod, still plenty of off the shelf rod choice. I need the long nose. Scat frown on cross drilling, I'll let them talk you through their thinking on this, they have an explanation on their website.

Re the 87 mm bore, using thin wall inducted iron liners. I'm told the Dodge Viper uses them.

I'm ready to buy as soon as they're ready to make them.

Julian

P.s. I'm told I'll have drawings tonight, but the TVR specialists I deal with have just ceased trading so everyone has a lot on their plates. They will be useful to get other quotes.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: minorv8 on February 24, 2012, 09:44:37 AM
Julian, you wouldn´t happen to have a spare TVR 500 crank ?

John, it´s interesting to see how Kimi will succeed !
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on February 24, 2012, 11:25:10 AM
3.7" stroke, 6" rod, 8.96" deck(un-cut) leaves 1.11" for ring package. 1.85" rod journal and 7,500 rpm, road racing ? Dry sump ? I forgot, the rover block is "narrower" at the pan rails than 300-350 sbb.Cheers, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 24, 2012, 02:21:52 PM
Jukka - I'm going to mothball my existing engine. I'll ask around.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 25, 2012, 09:10:12 AM
with that bore & stroke I'd end up with Engine Displacement (CC) 5215.4 using the standard liners..I'm thinking of cutting grooves & inserting copper O rings between top of sleeve & block to overcome potential leakage behind sleeve...Does anyone have thoughts on this idea? I have used flanged sleeves in the past, but $$$$$

Art- Road racing & dry sump for sure..Quite a few people here using TA head's too....Not sure on the bodyshell yet...have a partially done TR7, but am beginning to lean more towards MGBGT...MG racing is a very healthy category in Oz...Some TR's, TVR's & others race by invitation in the class, too.

Jukka- Kimi could get Lotus back in a winning position:-)

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on February 25, 2012, 11:59:54 AM
John and clan, I bought "Tsubaki-made in Spain", flanged liners through Wildcat, "Ian". As I understand it, made in Spain, sold to OZ, then Ian and retailed to me. Fortunately, they weren't wore-out in the process/lol. With all the $'s/labor of installing sleeves, I would only use "flanged". If you left approx .002" proud of deck, you'll have suitable o-ring effect, without the hassle.  Who is "Byron" and his twin turbo MGB ? Are they "really" making 600 hp as TRS claims, all motor ? Cheers, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 25, 2012, 04:59:34 PM
Email from Moldex, they can supply RV8 crank, they have the spec. Time frame c.12 weeks. I last spoke to TA P a couple of weeks ago, they said that their CNC machine was repaired, the new operator had settled in and he was working his way through a couple of rows of 455 heads. Next up would be the Rover heads. I would rather not be in the position where the crank was the last thing I was waiting for. I would ideally like to run the new engine in on the old stage 3 heads and get some torque/bhp figures for comparison. I'll be interested to hear how long Scat would take.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on February 26, 2012, 03:33:30 AM
Whoo very interesting post. I just opened similar post on uk forum to find a compagny to machine my crank.

I have one bare casting crank sourced to LR factory :

(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/11/14/83/96/stroke10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=405&u=11148396)

Maximun stroke with this crank : 91.5mm

I am looking also for a 94mm stroke crank. There is a small compagny who can cast full counterweight crank for RV8. Cranks can be machined to 94mm stroke without problem.

(http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/14/83/96/cranks10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=666&u=11148396)

P.S. Jukka if ever I have one of MCD TVR 500 crank prototype.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 26, 2012, 04:37:33 AM
Art, do you mean Ian @ TRS supplied the sleeves? I dont know about 600hp, but a friend who races a fairly fairly quick MGBGTV8 was following one of these engines in a private practice session at Phillip Island a week ago. He said it pulled away from him at a huge rate of knots.

Theres a story elsewhere on this website about Byron Listers Turbo project "Biteme". The pictures below show the Moldex crank & a "Halo" bottom end that John Davis in Sydney used to sell, It make 630 hp with 21psi of boost.

I've got a dyno clip somewhere

John

1999-004-MGinprogress.jpg
2001-0404-July-MGengineonDyno.jpg
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, Ian ? Ian ?
Post by: roverman on February 26, 2012, 11:01:22 PM
Of"'Wildcat" of Wales,NOT an ENDORSEMENT !  If someone is "bent" on pushing a cast crank.CRYO IT !!  They will need all the help possible, to last. A well done 4340 forging should do the job. Light dampener and aluminum flywheel with small dia 2 disc set up. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 27, 2012, 05:21:16 AM
Thanks Art, I guess I'd go straight to TRS now that I have that information. Repco here in OZ used to make flanged sleeves, then spun that part off as ACL, bought by Mahle & not making them anymore....ACL still make great bearings, though. For Buick, Rover & P76 4.4 versions fit the 4.0-4.6....

Julian- I'm interested to hear what Moldex come back with price wise. A friend has a Laystall UK billet in a Rover V8 but I dont think they are in business any more? Gordon Allen was another UK outfit who made nice cranks...Did an MGA stroker some years ago

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on February 27, 2012, 05:35:27 AM
Arts I would not be so septic on cast cranks. They were used with success in race rover v8 cars.

Look Grp A SD1 and TVR Tuscan challenge, both cast cranks and can hold 7000RPM without problem.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on February 27, 2012, 05:44:06 AM
I think Auscrank can supply RV8 Billet crank : http://www.crankshaftrebuilders.com.au/billet_cranks.htm and may be in UK here : http://allencrankshaft.co.uk/crankshafts.html
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on February 27, 2012, 08:31:47 AM
I regularly ran a stock cast Buick 215 crank to 7 grand and it lasted about 20K miles until one of the piston skirts cracked.

Jim
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, casting call ?
Post by: roverman on February 27, 2012, 11:03:42 AM
Clan, TA ported heads" should" make max power at 7,500 and beyond, depending on cam, inches, etc. Cast crank, 600 hp and 7,500 + rpm in road racing- good luck !  You'll need it, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on February 27, 2012, 01:27:29 PM
Laystall no longer make cranks, just cylinder liners. Auscrank price suggest they don't want the job. Allen cranks you have to go through the middle man, Racing green and they are not lightweight cranks.

Julian

P.s. John, I've done an extensive search but couldn't find any info on the John Davis halo. Any idea if he still makes them?
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, halo ?
Post by: roverman on February 27, 2012, 02:13:51 PM
Send me a drawing. I have material and waterjet access-no drawing. "Picture of girdle/halo looks strong enough,(if it's 7075 T6 alum.). I feel it needs more oil drainback under rear main and cam drive areas. Thanks, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 28, 2012, 09:46:16 AM
Julian - http://www.davisperformance.com

Jim - In my experience its the revs & harmonics created by over-run and downshifts on slick tyred race cars that cast cranks dont seem to like.
I've seen 4.6 ones, that have been well prepared,(Tuftrided, internally balanced etc) stand up to severe duty for a period and then let go...Quite spectacularly in some cases. I'm with you as regards street...20,000 miles in a high performance, part time use, car would take me years.

Ian Shugg @ Auscrank is a Rover enthusiast. It was he who told me that Ford cranks could be made fit Rovers some 28 years ago. I plan to use him to do some work on my Bryant crank. Back in the 80's he ground & clearanced a Datsun 180B crank (Nice steel forging) to fit a Lotus 1600. Worked out a fraction of the cost of Allen or Cosworth alternatives. A very clever operator.

Cheers

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, 907 crank ?
Post by: roverman on February 28, 2012, 12:41:39 PM
John, Perhaps Mr. Shugg knows of a raw forging or semi-finished L4 crank that will finish machine to fit the Lotus 907 engine,(4.25" bore centers) ? 2.2L cast cranks are silly expensive. Thanks, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on February 29, 2012, 07:53:46 AM
I've PM'ed you on that Art.

I will try & post some shots of the Bryant Ford crank in the next 24

Has anyone got a 340/350 crank working in a Rover block yet? I seem to recall pictures of one partially fitted in a 4.6 block
destined for an Alfa ??

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on February 29, 2012, 11:33:17 AM
John, Might be better to use OZ 4.4L block,(P76) ? I've heard 427 Ford main bearings are best compromise dia. 2.75". #3 will need narrowing.  Good Luck, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, counterweight shape
Post by: roverman on February 29, 2012, 04:19:23 PM
IMHO., "knife edge" in a wet sump, not good. Dry sump not so critical. I like the leading edge shape on Lunati counterweights, shears oil/windage away from rod areas,(biggest contributors), over radiused surface to main support areas,(more effective scraper areas). While we're at it, lets put scrapers "inside" the pendulum undercut areas of the counterweights. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 01, 2012, 08:47:16 AM
I've had a fair bit to do with the Leyland 4.4 over the years......higher deck, 3.5 stroke & 4.6 size mains.

A friend has one in a Elfin formula 5000 that dates back to the 70's...Lucas mechanical injection with huge trumpets looks great.

I think it recently received either Wildcat or TA heads, too.

It has a Laystall crank....4.4 cast item not good enough for that kind of duty

Cheers

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on March 02, 2012, 03:36:58 AM
Terrier truck crank is steel forged.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: djw090 on March 02, 2012, 07:05:37 AM
"Terrier truck crank is steel forged"

That is an interesting comment. The Leyland Terrier was manufactured in the UK and is listed as using the 4.4L version of the RV8. That size was only otherwise used in Australia with local maufacture. Earlier posters have indicated the Australian engines to have cast cranks. If the Terrier was using engines brought in from Australia you might expect it to use the same crank. However, you could understand it having a special crank if it was an "odd" size being made in the UK just for the Terrier.

Does anyone have any information on this?
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on March 02, 2012, 08:28:55 AM
I had the confirmation Terrier used steel forged crank by an ex JRA engineer.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, project "Iceberg"
Post by: roverman on March 02, 2012, 12:28:35 PM
Since we're chasing rainbows, why not the forged Iceberg cranks for the deisel conversion of the RV8 ?
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 07, 2012, 06:56:14 AM
David, having stripped many Terrier engines in search of the mythical forged crank, I'm yet to find one:-(

Leyland used to quote a part number and price of $1300.00 for them in the late 70's, but understandably, no takers. Terrier engines were distinguished from P76 one's by red as opposed to blue rocker covers.

Somewhat ironically, Leyland Australia closed an MGB manufacturing & assembly line in 1972 to make the P76....

Art, most if not all of those Iceberg cranks were purchased by Vitesse developments here in Melbourne in 1988 and used in 4.2 conversions mainly fitted to brand new Range Rovers.  The chap who ran this business's name escapes me, but I think he returned to UK.

I have one of these cars & did think the crank had a forged & hardened appearance at the flange end when I replaced a flex plate...Never had the sump off...I did enquire with one of the Vitesse employees whether it was a forging & he said no, but if they are, then there's plenty around...Might have to buy a whole car though....They were fitted with Motec ecu, too.
If someone has connections with an ex Rover special projects employee, it may be possible to get some more information on this.

cheers,

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, straight ahead.
Post by: roverman on March 07, 2012, 11:42:09 AM
Nothing diverts forward momentum like a well placed tangent. That being said, the "sample" 4.6L rover crank is being shiped to Scat, this week. Meanwhile, I shall make a basic dimensional drawing. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on March 08, 2012, 03:22:39 AM
John,

You speak of John Smith. It is the ex JRA engineer who told me Terrrier crank is forged.

John now lives in Uk at Newry (Nothern Ireland).

Now about "Iceberg crank", I have one used in Tuscan Challenge engine.
It is just cast in better molecular structure.

Cheers.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 08, 2012, 06:28:11 AM
Hmmm, next time I come across a Terrier engine I'll take a REALLY critical look at the crank....Maybe I've mistaken a parting line for a molding line.

That being said, Leyland sponsored John Mc Cormack's Leyland powered F5000 efforts out here back in the 70's and I'm fairly sure they had Laystall make cranks due to lack of off the shelf forging?? A friend has the Elfin MR7 car. The ex F1 McLaren version which won the Formula 5000 series here ended up back in UK as an F1 again.

Legendary engineer Phil Irving had input into engine and cylinder head development for these cars. Several sets of "Heron" heads were produced,too.

Cheers

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on March 08, 2012, 08:18:42 AM
Art - Good news about crank to Scat, thanks for stepping into the breach. I got the crank out of my old engine but the cost of sending it over and retrieving it with the possibility of it being a wild goose chase is prohibitive. I was just about to order from over here but I'll hold off for now. Cross over manifold arrived today, now have to decide on throttle bodies.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, locating the thrust bearing
Post by: roverman on March 08, 2012, 06:46:56 PM
Why did they put it "there" ? Rover V8's and sbb's have it on #3. This happens to be the "nodal" area of the crank as far as power pulse/torsional deflections. I suspect this why Buick/Olds engineers chose #3 to reduce flange wear, do to harmonics. The flip side of this is, all of the pressure plate clamp load is transfered to this area, when clutch is disengaged. This means a zigzag loading of up to 3k lbs. tranfers back to flywheel. Sbc, on the other hand has thrust bearing at #5. Perhaps for this reason ? Cheers, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on March 09, 2012, 06:33:09 AM
SBF SVO have it also on #3  no ?
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank/ sbf ?
Post by: roverman on March 09, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
Sbf, I do belive. This aids in using the sbf raw forgings for sbb/rover cranks.  roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank + a dummy crank
Post by: roverman on March 09, 2012, 02:14:34 PM
John C. You "might" want to grind a junker 340/350,(3.7" stroke) sbb crank to a Honda journal size, to check your block clearance issues ? As I think about this, you could easily "fab" a plastic/alum. dummy/ partial crank,(2 mains,2 rod's), just for clearance checking. Rover's are narrower at the pan rail than sbb's.  Good Luck, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on March 09, 2012, 03:39:56 PM
Don't know about pan rail clearance but cam lobe clearance is the usual issue. It gets real tight with aftermarket rods.

Jim
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, Q-lite ?
Post by: roverman on March 09, 2012, 04:45:24 PM
Jim and clan, Your speaking of 3.850" stroke with 2.0" rod journals ? Not a good option for Rover V8. As we have seen, 300 block is better suited for this much stroke. I suspect even a 3.7" stroke with a 2" journal will "bang" a rover block. Most folks springing for a forged custom crank, will want lot's of rev. potential. BadAssed torque is 455 territory.  Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on March 10, 2012, 02:38:41 AM
Art, in UK Rob Robertson at V8D built 5.5 RV8 with a stroke of 3.7" for a bore of 3.8" with 5.7" small journal SBC rods. Crank is full counterweight cast and can rev happy to 6500RPM. Cheers.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Greg55_99 on March 12, 2012, 01:19:54 PM
A Buick 350 crank won't "bang" a P76 block.  Well, not so much with stock Buick rods anyway...

(http://forum.britishv8.org/file.php?6,file=2336)

Greg
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on March 12, 2012, 06:37:13 PM
Greg, Bravo !  Appears to have same pan width as regular rover ? What are the mains sized at ?
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Wotland on March 13, 2012, 07:29:00 AM
P76 main bearing size is actually 2.5495" .

Yes same pan width as regular rover.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 13, 2012, 08:07:56 AM
STD P76 rods are decent forgings, too....Good for 6500 in road use...A shot peen & some ARP bolts wouldn't hurt, either.

Do you have a 4.0/4.6 block to try that crank in? 3.7 bore + 3.850 stroke would give 5.4L??
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, 10lb crank, 5 lb sack.
Post by: roverman on March 13, 2012, 11:38:16 AM
John, too many tangients already. Not a good swap IMHO. 3" mains down to 2.5" ? Deck way too short, piston skirts will bang counterweights. Poor rod ratio/etc. 300 iron block is better suited. Just ask Jim B., our resident task master of sbb;s. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on March 13, 2012, 02:18:26 PM
Crower can produce a custom billet RV8 crank but 12 to 14 week delivery.

Someone mentioned Laystall cranks, they are somehow amalgamated with Allen Crankshafts Ltd. So they can still be obtained.

Art - Any word from Scat? I'm beginning to wonder if there's enough meat on the Rover crank to make a light weight crank like they do. Not like chunky Chevy/Ford cranks.

Upward.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on March 13, 2012, 03:27:24 PM
Really, I suppose you could do that, (3.7 bore/3.85 stroke) if you were going for a light weight 5.4L engine. A bit undersquare and the block isn't all that strong and has other issues as well. But, with the right rods and slipper skirt pistons it could be done I expect. The real question is, how much is 80 lbs worth to you? Because what it will buy you (300 iron block) is a block that can handle well over 700 hp, has no liner issues, has much stronger threads and needs no thread inserts, has a larger bore already, and will easily give you a 5.7L displacement with an almost perfectly square bore and stroke (3.80 x 3.85). Then there is the whole issue about pulling the piston so far out of the bottom of the bore. May not be a problem but may also increase wear.

The MGB won't notice the weight difference, are you really confident you will? Because it will cost you money, engine life, and displacement. All of which I have a really hard time with giving up. As for bragging rights, have you noticed the subtle shift towards iron block engines? It still isn't much but we're seeing more and more SBFs and V6s. I have to think a lot of the reason is reliability, and this is the same reason I've gone to the iron block SBB. Some of us saw that trend coming and the only thing I know of that can slow it down is a new aluminum engine. Won't be the LS, too big. The 1UZ might stand a chance though, if it will fit. Now there's an engine with potential. Otherwise we're looking at the modern 4 cylinders and how much traction is one of those swaps going to get in the face of the V8 traditions?

Jim
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, chunky crank ?
Post by: roverman on March 13, 2012, 04:07:50 PM
Julian, Rover crank got sent to Scat, 3/12/12. I also spoke with them yasterday. They would start with the "chunky" sbf forging, if it is to happen. I'm apprehensive about lightening a cast rover crank,"maybe" pendulum cut the counterweights for a maximum cast effort. IMHO, their just not suited for serious, continous racing ventures. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on March 14, 2012, 04:17:54 PM
Art - Was it a long nose crank you sent? Also could I have the name of your contact? I'm dealing with Alex Gonzales.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on March 14, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
Long nose. Alex is the guy.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, update
Post by: roverman on March 23, 2012, 03:47:01 PM
I just called Scat, to follow-up. They have the Rover 4.6L crank I sent. Tom is working on the project. Word is call back in 4-6 weeks.  Cheers, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Greg55_99 on March 24, 2012, 05:25:55 PM
Rover_buick1.JPG

Well "Aussie John".  You asked about a Buick 350 crank in a Rover block.  You got it!  This is what it looks like.  Forget the date on the pic.  I just took this an hour ago. The main size was cut to 2.5495" (P76 size) so I took out the bearings, greased up the mains and dropped it in.  It rotates freely.  Hits nothing.  As to what rods you'd use.... I have no idea...

You did ask...

Greg
Rover_buick2.JPG
Rover_buick3.JPG
Rover_buick4.JPG
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Greg55_99 on March 24, 2012, 07:09:02 PM
Rover_buick5.JPG
Rover_buick6.JPG
Rover_buick7.JPG

I had to dig through my mucky garage to ferret this stuff out....  

Greg
Chall_RR22.JPG
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, mondo stroke !
Post by: roverman on March 24, 2012, 10:38:50 PM
Thanks Greg, Can't help but wonder if rods may hit oil port in block, etc. It looks like your also into Mopars and a Hemi ? You know Greg, a Jensen Healey will swallow a Hemi - no problem, jus' sayin. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on March 24, 2012, 10:44:34 PM
Yeah, I'd have thought a 350 crank in a Rover block would have been done long ago.

Jim
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 25, 2012, 08:17:45 AM
Now that's an encouraging sight, Greg!! Do you have  a P76 or Rover rod & piston handy? It one could be attached to the crank, cam slipped in and the whole assembly rotated for the clearance check.

There would be alternative ways of getting oil to the pump if the internal gallery is the primary issue.

Jim B is correct in his view that a 300 block would be a better option in most cases.

In my part of the world, registration authorities & insurance companies make life difficult when alloy engine blocks get swapped for cast iron...Dont ask me why.....

I'm still trying to get my Bryant crank photos to load, as well.....

Cheers

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Greg55_99 on March 25, 2012, 12:16:45 PM
These are old pics.  This is the same crank in a P76 block but with a stock 73-80 Buick 350 rod and some piston I dug up that fits the bore.  With this long rod, the capscrew just kisses the oil galley.  On a P76 block, no problem to grind a bit of relief for clearance.  No problems with the cam as well.  Rod angle is the same as the 350 so no worries.  The Rover block would get real interesting in there.  But... I would say if hot rodders have already figured out how to use the stock 300 rod on this crank, would it be that tough to have a custom piston fabbed up to use?   Also, the 75-77 Buick 3.8 odd fire rod is the same length as the Buick 300 rod but is shaped like the later 350 rod.

Some years ago I had a phone conversation with John Harcourt about the 350 crank in a P76 block.  He told me a friend of his had actually done this swap but kept the 3.5" bore and used mildly ported P76 heads.  He was disappointed with the result.  I'm quoting "She wouldn't rev...".   Things might be different now....

Greg


350_crank_6.jpg
350_crank_5.jpg
Rods1.jpg

left to right: Buick 215, Rover 3.5\\3.9, SB Chevy 327, Buick 3.8 V6 (odd fire), Buick 300, P76, Buick 350(73-80), Buick 340\\350(66-72)
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on March 25, 2012, 01:19:46 PM
Well, with a 3.85 stroke and 3.5 bore would you expect it to rev?
Just curious, if you were to either powder coat or jet hot coat the 300 block do you think they'd notice it was iron?

Jim
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, 5k , 7k rpm or ?
Post by: roverman on March 25, 2012, 10:38:31 PM
Perhaps I'm too old school ? I think a lightweight sports car should rev. Not having experienced the bliss of Bad Ass Torky Accelleration,(BATA) for short, perhaps I'm too quick to judge. Not knowing any better, It "seems" like having 30-40% more rpms available, might be fun ?  Long Live RPM, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: BlownMGB-V8 on March 26, 2012, 12:06:02 AM
A bigger bore could fix that.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 26, 2012, 06:26:34 AM
Powder coat, hmmmm. Thanks for that thought, Jim:-)

What a picture library you have Greg! The generous store & sharing of knowledge on this site is phenomenal.

Some flanged 3.7 bore diesel "C" sleeves would fit nicely into that P76 block......
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: Greg55_99 on March 26, 2012, 11:12:38 AM
Well... like they say.... "Go BIG.... or go HOME..."

Greg
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on March 30, 2012, 07:10:56 PM
OK, finally got a cable to upload Bryant SBF pics...Here they are
07032012037.jpg
07032012038.jpg
07032012039.jpg
07032012034.jpg

I will get an opinion & cost from a crank grinder of the mods required....One BE journal is fried so the idea is to go Honda which should give me 3.550 stroke, too.


Cheers

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on March 30, 2012, 10:33:02 PM
John, Somewhat important, does sbf use #3 main for thrust ? Main sizes ? Thanks, Art.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: rrrover 5L on April 11, 2012, 08:40:44 AM
Art, yes, the SBF uses 3 for thrust, same as Rover. I'll measure mains & post shortly.

Cheers

John
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, how much spigot ?
Post by: roverman on May 29, 2012, 07:10:25 PM
Clan, Ford raw forging will make 3/8" min. on spigot length. Is this enough compared to late cranks at 5/8" approx ? Scat needs to know. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, narrow the sbc rods ?
Post by: roverman on May 30, 2012, 11:52:55 AM
Or widen the rod journals ? Rod offset in the bore ? Anybody ?  roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: flitner on May 30, 2012, 12:47:24 PM
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=46462&highlight=crankshaft
Here is a gent that I believe could help you out, if i remember correctly he is in the UK and completely rebuilt this machine for doing Merlin crankshafts.
My correction Southwest of Glasgow Scotland, sorry!
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: willbowen on August 21, 2012, 09:06:45 PM
To All;

http://www.marinecrankshaftinc.com/


Yes we can make a crank for that engine. That's basically the same engine that is used in the Land Rover, isn't it?
Cost is $2800 with about a 12 week turn around time. Let me know if there are any special dimensions (journal sizes etc) that you need.

Regards, David Eden
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on August 23, 2012, 04:29:42 PM
William - Thanks, that's interesting. If I have one more delay by the people I've ordered from, I'll be cancelling my order and giving these people a ring.

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: roverman on August 23, 2012, 04:59:20 PM
Julian and clan, I seem more likely to win the Lottery here, than get a crank out of Scat ! 5 months and nothing ! Good news is, I  spoke to David Eden. He seems knowledgeable, and they have made these cranks before. Being within driving distance, is a plus.  roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank
Post by: jfjfjf2 on August 25, 2012, 04:55:24 AM
Art - 5 months? 5 months is nothing, they work on the geological time scale. I've waited 10 months for a quote.

Backwards,

Julian
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, update 9/13/12
Post by: roverman on September 13, 2012, 02:32:43 PM
I spoke to "Tom" at Scat. They have hired (3) more enginneers and are catching-up. I am to check back next week. Ford 302 raw forging, has better suited counterweights than Windsor, and has a stroke potential of 3.5-3.55".  Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, No Way !
Post by: roverman on September 13, 2012, 05:18:09 PM
According to Scat, sbf raw forging will not work ! Luckily, Mickey Thompson and Lance Reventlow, didn't "Know" this. Scat will make a billet crank for $2,800, in 8-10 weeks.  roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, do a 180
Post by: roverman on September 28, 2012, 10:53:02 AM
So, 4340 billet steel cost from 32.5cents/lb.,(China/1 ton min.), to $6.60/lb., local for 190lbs. Water jet the profile-unknown. Considerable hours of labor, without millions of $'s of equipment, is a given. Onward, roverman.
Title: Re: RV8 Custom crank, update 11/05
Post by: roverman on November 05, 2012, 07:17:29 PM
I now have a Rover single-plane crank drawing. Now to get bids.First choice is RPM. Onward, roverman.