I'm at the stage of my MG build where I'm installing the interior. I've decided the perfect location for a pair of 6 3/4" speakers is in the top corner of each door directly above the window crank shaft. My idea is to cut out the hole, weld in a metal can of the right depth and angle, fabricate custom door panels to accomodate the speakers and window switches in an asthetically pleasing manner. Then I'm going to rock out.
Question: Does anyone have experience with adding power windows to your MG? If so, what setup did you use, and does such a setup appear to give enough clearance to allow speaker mounting up in the top corners? I see a few pictures of cars with power windows, but the door panels cover up all the secrets as to what lies beneath.
I've made custom fiberglass speaker panels in the past, and had them installed in the kick panel area of the MG paired with two small subwoofers behind the seat. This setup sounded pretty good, but the speakers frequently got blocked by my passenger's legs, and they also got kicked more than I'd like to admit. So I've decided for me (an audio nerd and music lover) that the top front of the doors with a slight angle back is just exactly what I'm looking for. I have 3 1/2" speakers in the head rests and two 10" subs behind the seats in a custom built enclosure. Should sound bitchin' when it's done. Don't tell me it can't be done, or I'll do it just to prove that it can! lol I'm just getting close to finishing this beast and my quarter panels are hungry for some hot tire shrapnel. I'm hoping to get some ideas or suggestions that might help me achieve that goal a little bit quicker. Any advice welcome!
p.s. If anyone here has systems of their own to talk about, that might be fun too. :)
Bill Davidson added power windows in his GT but hasn't done his how it was built article yet. Don't remember what kit he used.
We really need to explore this. Several have been done and we need to get the goods on them. I've heard that Toyota mechanisms might work.
Jim
I second that Jim. I think this is one thing hich could be developed more. I used Toyota regulators in my 64 but they are manual regulators.
There is a universal power window kit (EZ Wiring)advertized in Streetrodder magazine for $145.
Mine has a power window kit from Moss Motors. They work great, but I can't give you any details on the installation, as Steve Carrick installed them. I understand from him that it was a real pain to adjust the limit stops on the GT, as they were made for a roadster.
I have the Moss kit that replaces the entire regulator assembly. There was an extra sheet in the instructions that said you have to rotate a stop block 90* for use in a GT. Maybe they added that after Steve called them to figure it out?. Anyway, they aren't cheap, but I'd highly recommend them. I searched all of the universal hot rod ones and even ordered one but I couldn't make it work. The problem is they all require more room under the window when it's fully down than our cars have. The ones I bought were from AutoLoc because they required the least space. I got them installed but because of the lack of space the cable drive has to be curved in too tight of an arc & binds. I tried rotating the housings, modifying/moving brackets, etc. After a few weeks of messing with them I gave up & bought the Moss ones. I still have the AutoLoc ones; they'd work fine in a taller door; the motor was plenty strong.
As for sound system & speakers Scott maybe you can give me some advice. I know nothing so stopped by a local shop just the other day and asked them what I need. They recommended a 400w 4-channel amp with 6 1/2" mids/separate tweeters up front and coaxial speakers in the rear. The guy I talked with said not to bother with a sub-woofer saying in the convertible it wouldn't change the sound appreciably - just add that thumping vibration which I don't want anyway. Make sense? Agree with the amp size recommendation? I'll be watching for your updates because I am (or at least was) assuming the front speakers will need to go in the kick panels. Going off memory, but I don't think there's much depth in the door panels before you hit the glass or quarter window channel.
Any decent sounding door speaker will require a spacer due to the depth of the speaker. The Roadmaster has 'em, as does my car.
Rob,
On the power amp, you will have to dig into the specs to compare amps. Are we talking 100 watts per channel X4? Probably. But is that 100 watts peak or RMS? Is it into 2 ohms or 4 ohms? A 400 watt RMS 4 channel into 4 ohms would be plenty for most of us. I remember rockin out with a whole lot less. :) I can't seem to make myself cut the holes for the rear speakers, though.
Thanks Carl. The guy was recommending 400w RMS. I didn't know to ask about speaker ohms... I'm guessing lower resistance is better & more expensive so 4ohm speakers would be less expensive, right? As for the holes, my car already had holes cut when I got it. I haven't closed them off, but plan to. For back speakers I am planning to build a box that'll sit on the rear shelf. That way they won't be blocked by the top when it's down and I can angle the speakers up some too.
I have got power windows from Moss Europe. They work great, and were easy to install. My speakers are below the window switch.
Clan, A speaker has to "breathe". If you close-off behind it, leave escape route for air. Cheers, roverman.
I used this kit in my '69 BMW 2002
http://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=3300-0030-0147
It was easy to install and works great.
There are a bunch of companies that make a "universal" window crank like that. That style uses a motor to turn the existing window crank for you. I didn't try them; if you try that style on an MG, I think the key would be to remove and really clean/re-lube the sissor mechanism very well and also probably replace the channel felt that the glass rides in. If the windows are hard to crank by hand, I think they'll burn up the motor on that style of electric kit.
So that replaces the crank knob?
J
Yes. Moss or VB sells that style too. Their kit has a plastic piece that gets mounted over the crank post & covers the hole in the door panel.
Not sure what happened to my speaker reply, Rob.
Go with the speakers that the amp is rated for. Speakers are rate in nominal impedance. A 2 ohm speaker puts more load on the amp (twice as much) vs the 4 ohm. I would think that 100 watts per channel RMS would be way more than enough to rock out!
Carl, I appreciate the information on the 2 ohm versus the 4 ohm; good info I did not know that.
Jac
I think that Bill Davidson used the EZ wiring kit and covered the holes in his door panels with plastic MG trunk lid logos glued on to the panel.
Budget power windows is a Canadian invention...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLsyM2Crhew
That works for me Graham !
As Carl stated, speaker ohms need to match the amplifier ohms. If the amp is rated for 4 ohms, you need to use 4 ohm speakers. If the amp is rated for 8 ohms, use 8 ohms speakers. Depending on the amp design, a mismatch can damage the amp.
So, what difference in sound would one notice between a 2ohm & 4ohm system?
Recognizing I'm not an audiophile, I just want to be able to hear the system over the wind & road noise w/top down & at highway speeds, is there a practical difference (beyond cost)?
QuoteSo, what difference in sound would one notice between a 2ohm & 4ohm system?
None. The quality will be determined by the overall system. As far as I know, unless you are going for an extremely high end system, any car audio system will be 8 ohms.
QuoteRecognizing I'm not an audiophile, I just want to be able to hear the system over the wind & road noise w/top down & at highway speeds, is there a practical difference (beyond cost)?
The most important factor will be your music selection. You won't be able to enjoy any kind of music that has a lot of dynamic range - you can forget about classical music. If you turn it up loud enough to hear the quiet passages, the loud passages will blow you out of the car. Low enough for the loud passages, and the low passages will be lost in the wind/engine noise. Trying to get quality audio in an open sports car with a V8 (and I'm assuming you have a pleasing exhasut note - ie, rather loud) is an excercise in futility. The wind will overpower most high frequencies.
In my car, if I have the volumn up high enough to enjoy the music over the exhaust and wind noise, it is way over safe listening levels. I'm not sure the exhaust sound itself is not over safe listening levels.
Check out http://www.crutchfield.com/app/index_b.aspx for some good car stereo information.
Disclaimer: It's been years since I messed with quality sound systems - maybe things have changed since then.
I think most car audio speakers are 4 ohms these days, Dan. Subs are used in 2 ohm configuration a lot. I believe that the 8 ohm will have greater fidelity, followed by 4 ohm. Like Dan said, in a roadster it won't matter.
I discovered that I can hear the music over the wind noise much better when wearing ear plugs.
QuoteI think most car audio speakers are 4 ohms these days, Dan.
I did some checking, and you're right. Just shows how out of touch with new technology I am.
Most of the music I listen to in the MG is the 1950s rock and roll that I grew up listening to on AM radio - fidelity is of no concern.
It's all about the distortion levels. Ever listen to a top end system where you were in control of the volume when a really kick-ass song came on? You don't even realize how much the volume has been turned up until you start to feel the vibrations in your chest and the neighbors come over? That's clean sound. It is very hard to get that in a car system, especially a convertible. But once you do you'll never forget it. Absolutely the key factor is the speakers. Good speakers will make almost any head unit sound great, bad ones will ruin it. Altec Lansing once made a surface mount 6 x 9 in a cast housing with a paper cone that only handled about 50 watts but what they did with that 50 was nothing short of amazing. Crisp clear sound with dazzling highs that you could still hear with the wind roaring by.
Any amp is going to have distortion specs and the less distortion the better. But amp builders have been playing all sorts of games with their specs pretty much from day one. Look, watts equals volts times amperage, so the entire reason for the 4 and then 2 ohm speakers was to get the amperage up. 14 volts into 2 ohms gives 7 amps. 7 times 14 equals 98 so the absolute most you are EVER going to get out of a car stereo is 100 watts per channel and that's into a 2 ohm load with ZERO internal resistance in the amp. And since amps typically rely on impedence matching that means the amp has the same impedence or resistance as the load, or an overall system impedence of 4 ohms, so you just cut that in half.
If you are looking at amp specs and they are claiming more than 50 watts per channel THEY ARE LYING!!! If they are lying about the power specs, what does that say about the distortion specs? MORE LIES!!! And it makes a difference how they quote it, including the distortion threshold and the test set up.
The ONLY way to exceed 50 watts is to reduce the impedence even further or to increase the supply voltage. NOTHING else works. So find an amp builder who posts realistic power specs and you might have one who posts real distortion specs too, but it's still a good idea to read the reviews, especially lab testing reports.
Finally, "Garbage in = Garbage out" so pay attention to the connections and the source. It is possible to have a good sound system, but nobody said it would be easy or cheap. Oh, and the stuff has a finite life too so plan on replacement costs.
Jim
Well Rob and Dan, I guess that between Carl and Jim, Dr. Bose don't stand a chance :-) (LOL)
Ha! I don't think anyone will be mistaking me for a Phd. Engineer from M.I.T.
Since you mentioned him, a quote from Amar Bose:
There are two reasons we cut out the specifications:
1) We don't know of any measurements that actually determine anything about a product, and 2) Measurements are phony, in general, as they are printed.
Yep for real; you and Bose somehow have connected DNA (LOL)...... Sound systems are one bad addiction on the pocketbook and at my age, my hearing can't even pick up the all of the frequency range :-)
Here's a statement from the spec sheet of an Alpine 500W @ 2ohms amplifier:
"Power Supply: The MRP-M500 amplifier's power supply uses MOSFETs to convert DC battery voltage to the higher DC voltages needed for high power."
As I said earlier, my knowledge of this kind of stuff is well past the "use by" date. I remember the old tube type radios used up until the mid 60s, where they stepped the DC voltage up to 300 volts using a vibrator and a transformer. I don't know what they use get the higher voltage today (well, I "kinda" know, but not in detail).
QuoteSound systems are one bad addiction on the pocketbook...
That's why I gave up on them years ago. I'm living with a 20 year old system in the house, and that replaced a 20 year old vacuum tube setup. When I bought the sound system for my MGB a few years ago, it was an 8 ohm system. Being an old fossil sucks.
Dan, as we get older we need higher Ohms :-)
Ok so what is a good system without the Rap music and astronomical base. You know normal people Dan.
I like what Carl mentioned - I've ridden in the '72 MGB with full exhaust and also with open downpipes. Also mine('79 294CI) with exhaust(no mufflers) - you can definitely hear the stereo but quality is an issue. I attributed this to wind noise in the cabin and exhaust. However a friend of mine recently picked up a FB RX7 and with his moderately loud exhaust he has the same issue. The only solution I've found is to use headphones which is a lot cheaper ;) - however I only use them when on the highway - otherwise no music so I can be more aware of those around me and any emergency vehicles that may be nearby. The plus is that a good set of headphones will always beat an amazing stereo system.
Note - I'm sure with a top up/GT and enough sound insulation you can get a great sound quality - its choice is yours and thats what makes modifying these cars so much fun.
MGBV8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think most car audio speakers are 4 ohms these
> days, Dan. Subs are used in 2 ohm configuration a
> lot. I believe that the 8 ohm will have greater
> fidelity, followed by 4 ohm. Like Dan said, in a
> roadster it won't matter.
>
> I discovered that I can hear the music over the
> wind noise much better when wearing ear plugs.
I tend to listen to my music at levels that are "probably" beyond a safe listening level typically. :) Great sound can be had in an open top car, including MGB's. The key ingredients are 1. Make the car as quiet as possible. It takes a ten fold increase in power to double the loudness of the sound you hear. It's often times more cost effective to lower the overall noise level of the car by 3db or so using Dynamat or something similar, which is the same effect as doubling your amplifier power. (yes it adds weight to the car. For me, who cares) 2.Choose the best possible gear. I've always preffered using 6 1/2 seperates (seperate woofer, crossover, tweeter) mated with a pair of small subs, 10" being my favorite. I never use the amp built into the head units as they just can't compete with a good outboard one. 3. Install the gear properly. Make sure your amps have good airflow and power cables to supply current. Use a capacitor of 1 farad or bigger on the power line suppying your amps. (charges and gives off voltage very quickly to "pad" peaks in your amps output, helping to keep the headlights from dimming while you rock out to deep bass notes) Higher frequencies from your car speakers travel in a more linear fashion than do the low notes, so the closer you can get your mids/ tweeters to ear level, the better they sound and clearer / louder you will hear them. Use efficient speakers and amplifiers. Many speakers will play at 90 db or louder with a 1 watt input. Reserve amplifier power (as much as you can afford to some degree) is what gives the sound clarity and punch at really high volume levels, even though in actuality you are only pushing a few watts at most. For me, I listen to mostly rock and roll of all types and I've always preffered the sound of sealed boxes over ported for what I listen to. Sealed boxes increase your speakers power handling, control woofer movement, and can hit the deepest of bass notes (although not as loudly as a similar ported design. A port is tuned to a set frequency, and no bass notes below that frequency can be produced because of cancellation. I know ported designs can sound great, but for average people, sealed boxes are easier to build and they sound great. Besides, on certain music port noise is often a side effect that has to be dealt with. Again, I like smaller subs with a proper internal volume box with an electronic crossover set to cutoff around 80 hz )
I have the Moss power window kit in two B's and work great. One suggestion. Install the SW's any place but the door, any rain gets in there will do funny things. Not a problem in the GT but a problem in the RD.
About sound, my RD has a nice stereo with speakers in the Miata seats (really good speakers) but I rarely listen to it.
I like to listen to the blower wind and the engine.
The GT is getting the hidden stereo, no dash stereo. Speakers will also be hidden in the doors same with the rear speakers.
Also hidden antenna.
About sound, I have done some research on sound. It appears that the prefer location for speakers is the floor due to the sound goes up. The floor is not a good location for various reasons.
The GT that I sold, I build boxes that fit under the seats and an angle and place the speakers in the boxes. Did it worked, YES, sound was great. The problem is to keep the dust away from the speakers.
How many Watts etc etc... I have no idea about the tech stuff, I just buy the matching pieces and installed.
So far I'm still strong enough to roll up my own windows. It is an MG after all . . . :-)
Cheers,
NCtim
Is it just me, or do lots of you have trouble getting the windows to roll up and down like they first did?
On a new MGB rolling the windows up or down was no big deal. You could reach across the car and wind the passenger's window up or down with two fingers. And if they still worked that easily there would be little need for power but it seems that a bunch of things have conspired to take that away from us. Maybe it would help to have tips and tricks to get smooth running windows. For instance, I've heard that one of the screws that hold the regulator to the door can only be so long and no more, as it will cause binding and stiffness. (I have yet to check this on my car but would almost guarantee it is a problem there). Anyone else?
Jim
Jim, I"ve found that a good cure for a sticky window or one that is hard to raise or lower in a shot of silicone lubricant in the felt glass channels. Works like magic to make the window smooth and almost effortless. You'd be surprised how much drag that felt can cause on the glass. And being silicone it weathers well and doesn't seem to wash away in the rain or car washes.
Jim,
I know it was easier when I was younger, but I can hardly bend over comfortably enough to put my socks on in the morning (and I'm not a large guy). I think our age hinders things these days. I can't imagine doing some of the stuff now my wife and I used to do-LOL! That said:
In my last MGB ('72) I had a Harmon/Kardon receiver and small 100? watt amp that ran home-made Altec Lansing speakers made from some studio monitors I had lying around. Driving from Chicago to Asheville with the top down this worked as well as any off-the-shelf system and better than anything under 45 mph.
In those days we didn't have subwoofers, we made our own. I used a 2 ohm 12" woofer and fed both channel's power feeds to both connectors (right channel to +, left channel to -). You had some low volume hum but at higher volume the sound and base was fantastic. That's basically all a sub woofer is anyhow, now they just put some kind of filters or resistors in them to get rid of the hum and charge you $200 to do it.
I glued (hey, I was 19-years-old) the tweeters to the dash and put the mids in the doors and behind the seats with the cross-overs. Sounded great, looked like a college kid's car, that's all I needed to crank Pink Floyd and REO Speedwagon to appropriate listening levels.
As Roverman says, "Onward!"
NCtim
then there was the Craig Power Play 8 track mounted between the rollbar on the deck in my TR6.....and fly'n low and fast
I wish I could find anything as crisp, clear, and efficient as the old paper 6 x 9 altec lansings in cast frames that I used to have. Wouldn't handle extreme power, only about a 1" voice coil, but man, they were precise. Knowing what I do now, I'd have kept them forever and had them re-coned when I could.
Jim
Re sticky windows,
The most success that I've had is making sure that the brake mechanism is well lubed. It's the spring and cone assy right behind the handle. It's function is to stop the window from going down on it's own, but when it gets dry it stops the window all together.
Second is exactly as Bill said. The window felts lose their felt lining over time and the exposed rubber grabs the glass.
Silicone spray works well but test it first. Some brands use a solvent that will melt the rubber. Silicone grease works very well and lasts longer, but is harder to apply.
Cheers
Fred
Well guys, I'm kinda chuckling as I read this thread. My TD doesn't have windows, sound system or even a windshield. I pretty much thought that was the whole idea of a British sports car. What my V8 TD does have is gobbs of torque, horsepower and an exhaust note that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck, what more is needed? Maybe a Corvette or American V8 powered Lexis would be more along the lines of what your looking for. Hell my hearing's shot anyway.
Dave, are you coming to the met in Palestine? I'm looking forward to seeing your car.
Well Dave, you're right of course. And I used to be 18 and used to ride motorcycles to work in sub-freezing weather wearing bread-bags over my shoes to cut the wind too. I used to do a whole lot of stuff that might not be too bright to try these days since my odds of getting by with it are not what they once were. I don't see it so much getting soft as preserving life and limb. I see you old guys getting your bionic joints and all and want no part of it. If that means an automatic in my life instead of 300 gear changes per trip, sorry, I'll take the auto, provided I can get it on my terms. As for the windows, I don't want to give up my car just because the weather isn't great. The radio? For the most part you can keep that but it does make a handy distraction on long trips. I don't care what you say about loving the sound of the engine, along about half way across the plains it gets monotonous.
Jim
Hey Guys, don't get excited, I was just jerkin your chain. I know we all have our own idea of what we want our car to be. I will be the first to admit my TD is not user friendly. I'm over 60 so the car is way beyond my driving skills, will beat me to death on the long haul and is strictly a fair weather vehicle. We are all part of a unique group that enjoys over powered British sports cars, what ever flavor it happens to be.
Take care, Dave
Now, if I could just RENT the ideal vehicle for a weekend blast.... How about that Atomic Atom street rail thing? Go-Kart to the nth degree! I'd be up for that. (Not that I could afford it you understand.)
Jim
So.......Aren't "most" atoms, atomic ? I may eventually cave-in to AC, PS,PB/etc., as father time is chasing me, on roller skates, LOL. I like music and I don't like boredome, so radio/cd player is almost a necessady. 2 cents, roverman.
Quote: How about that Atomic Atom street rail thing
There was one at our Cars & Coffee this month. I'd never seen one before - very cool.