Thought I'd add a thread on the progress of my Roadster since it's something new and different from the usual conversions and there may be some out there who would like to watch it happen. It also may help me find some of the pieces I need.
Years ago, perhaps as much as 6 or 8, I bought a T-bird IRS and began toying with the notion of adapting it to my car. I had blanks cut out to make new hub bearing carriers which would allow the use of stock length control arms and move the brakes inboard but never got any farther, primarily because I'd not tried to fit the pumpkin into place. Now, in conjunction with the Roadmaster car and using the test mule I have done that and determined that it is the wrong differential for the job. And, although the Jag pumpkin is very heavy it turns out to fit into place exceptionally well. There may be yet another diff that is as good of a fit and lighter in weight but until I find that one, the Jag appears to be the obvious choice.
That doesn't automatically make it the right choice from the brakes out though. The one thing I liked most about the T-bird unit was the upper control arm. It isolates the functions of suspension control from those of power transmission, and also eliminates the loss of a wheel in the event if a u-joint failure and I like that a lot. Plus, from measuring it looks like there may be enough room to fit that in without losing any suspension travel or cutting the bodywork. So while I am adapting the Jag unit to the Roadmaster I am also looking at what can be done to adapt the outer parts from the modified T-bird. Presently the drive axles are the main concern as there may not be a simple way to mix-n-match. The Jag uses u-joints and the ford uses a 6 ball CV joint and a 3 ball spider. The single u-joint is not real compatible with the CV and I haven't yet looked at what it wold take to put a CV at each end.
So maybe the Jag unit is not the best choice for this either. Can anyone make a suggestion for an alternative? It would need to be one that does not have big ears out by the pinion as it can only be 7" wide at that point. It can't have a big mount on the rear cover as that would interfere with the gas tank. If possible it should have an aluminum housing. Plus it needs to have a ring gear larger then 8" in diameter. Then the issue is one of attaching brake rotors to the output stubs, but that may not be too difficult. Anyone?
Jim
I guess an aluminum Jag housing would be too much to ask...
Jim,
Have you considered a Corvette IRS. Not sure if the design lends itself to your application (for instance, the one on my old '65 Sting Ray had transverse leaf springs) and I've lost track of the IRS designs in the newer C5 & 6's, but maybe worth a look.
Graham
Jim, the torque requirements certainly do limit the choices. I'll have to keep an eye open next time I'm wandering through the salvage yard. For what it's worth, I have been doing some preliminary design work for an IRS for my Midget and although I won't require as much torque capability as you I think I might have some ideas that would appeal to you. I have looked at the BMW rear axle and it looks like something you might be able to use, especially out of the 5 or 7 series cars. There's also the axles from the big SUVs from both Japan and Germany to consider. Most of those have V8s and would be close to the torque requirements from your motor. I was thinking about building a cage subframe that would attach to the original spring mounting points and shock mounts so that it would be a 'bolt in' unit. Very similar to the unit being developed by Todd Budde for Rob Ficalora. Might be just what you need.
IRS.JPG
What about a Subaru WRX rear diff? It's tiny, light and should be able to take some torque given that the kids pump their STi's up to 500hp + and launch hard without failure. There are a ton of HD parts available for it. I've also noticed the IRS in a Ford Escape SUV looks interesting, you can see it quite clearly when you are behind one at a stoplight.
The downfall of the T-bird/Couger when they were introduced was the high weight of the IRS subframes if I recall.
Might want to check-in with Evan Amaya, since he built a Jag IRS for his MGB.
Jim,
I have been experimenting with the Aluminum Lincoln Mk8 pumpkin, it's the same as the T-bird only it's much lighter and limited slip is also included on the 95-98? I think.
With a custom rear cover and sub-frame it will fit.
Plus the rear spindles are aluminum, comes with disc brakes and parts are available at your local parts store/speed store.
Only drawback is the battery boxes need to be modified, relocating the battery to the trunk.
As I mentioned above, I am still in the mock up stage.
Call or email for more detailed info.
Cheers
Pete
Several people have been working on IRS setups over the years and several still are. I have my own ideas about how it should be done and personally I don't think such a complex tubing frame is needed or desired. I do have the considerable advantage of having two upside down cars to work with so I'm not fighting the pumpkin to get it up into place and I can shim and nudge it around all I want to get it into the best position. If anybody wants to stop by with a center housing we can easily see how well it will fit.
The MGB bodyshell has a natural channel between the frame rails above the center of the diff which can be used very effectively to bridge between the shock mounting holes. It's fairly simple to also attach to the hanger strap mounts giving a rear attachment point as well. That gives a very complete upper mount structure but for added strength with the Jag unit a center plate bolted through the floor at the corners will make a nearly indestructable mount. All that is lacking is the lower braces and if you look at the bottom pan of the Jag where those braces connect it is downright tinny. Clearly with minimal bracing the battery boxes will fulfill that need.
The early Corvette diff won't work because it mounts off the rear cover and there isn't room for that. The '84 C4 unit might work but the truss is probably too wide and may be too thick as well and it looks as if it may be an integral part of the rear cover. Plus it will be very close to the upper suspension arm. I may try to get a look at one though, if it will fit it has the advantages of light weight and isolation mounts. I don't know what the C5 and C6 used. I'm a little concerned about the torque handling ability of the WRX. Yes it'll handle 500 hp but will it handle 400 ft. lbs of torque? I've got my doubts and that's in the ballpark of what the blown 340 should be putting out, if not more. Let's not forget also that the WRX is AWD and I just read an article where the record holder was snapping both front and rear axle shafts at the same time. I've not looked at the Escape yet, but considering the V6 is rated at 193 ft.lbs I doubt it's strong enough either. As of now the Jag really does look the best except for the weight and lack of isolation mounts, and I think I've found a way to modify the Ford inner drive housings to bolt to the Jag diff, but I'm missing a small box of parts that has the 3-ball spiders, snap rings and boot clamps and I'll need shorter axle shafts so the picture is not as simple as I would like. Also, T-bird drivers have been complaining about wheel-hop so that is another issue to be resolved. But, nobody said it'd be easy.
Jim
Here's one that could have some potential:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-83-84-85-Rear-Differential-1985-Toyota-Supra_W0QQitemZ110185449122QQihZ001QQcategoryZ33731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Notice that it has mounting points on the top of the diff at the rear and at the front, and that the side bolts at the front are also in a usable orientation. I don't know if it would be strong enough though.
The Nissan diffs have that rear cover mount, the BMW ones are all a little weird in one way or another and would be difficult to mount, Mercedes could be an option.
And here's another one that is interesting, though again the cover mount is likely to cause trouble:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/91-92-93-STEALTH-3000GT-VR4-Turbo-AWD-Rear-Carrier-Diff_W0QQitemZ150175794356QQihZ005QQcategoryZ33731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Interestingly enough, the 8" or 9" ford could be a pretty good choice, because of the banjo type housing which would allow for any type or configuration of mounts, pivot or anchor points to be welded to the housing. The disadvantages are the need for suitable output shafts and seals and the decreased efficiency due to the lower pinion position.
Here's another:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2004-up-Lincoln-Navigator-IRS-Differential-Rear-NEW_W0QQitemZ220163794595QQihZ012QQcategoryZ33731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The Lincoln Navigator unit is likely to be a ford 8.8 but would need some help to fit in without cutting the battery boxes.
Incidentally, the later Corvette diffs won't work at all without major redesign since they mate directly to the transmission.
The Mazda RX7 diff might be a good prospect as it has a top mount:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-FD3S-3rd-Gen-Rx-7-Rx7-Diff-4-1_W0QQitemZ320175364858QQihZ011QQcategoryZ33731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The vast majority are iron housings. If the Navi had come with an aluminum case that one would probably be the odds on favorite, only needing a more compact rear mount and inboard brakes. It seems the Mark unit like the one Pete has is one of very few choices in aluminum. I wonder how difficult it would be to rework the front mounts on that one?
Jim
Hi I have been working on a tr4.I have modified the frame to use a narrowed Miata rear suspension.The diff I am using is an 8.8 from a Lincoln MK8.Its aluminum and it weighs about 57 lbs. the Miata subframe can be narrowed as much as 7 in. if you would like to see how the diff. can be mounted to the subframe go to the Miata.net engine conversion forum.There are v8 Miatas with 400 HP.that use this combo without any problems. most of them use the t-bird 7.5 diff. its iron.but in a light car its more than strong enough. i saw you in terra haute in 06 i also met Dan Masters. I am using his wiring harnss so i can use the EFI and a/c without any problems. Best of luck .
Tim, that's a very interesting statement, it turns out that the T-bird diff, open carrier with no axles, back cover or mount is 68.1 pounds. A posi would add some weight, as would the cover so in reality we're talking about something like 15 lbs difference which isn't a lot in terms of sprung weight. I think that explains the prevalence of iron housings. The problem then is the mounts. Here's what it takes to make one fit into the space available.
MVC-266S.JPG
MVC-265S.JPG
As you can see the front mounts become unusable and a stamped rear cover is needed. There is a possible way around this, I hope to know more in a few days and will explain it then.
In the meantime since we have so much interest in the topic maybe I need a few ground rules. I do prototype development work and as a rule if I'm not under contract, which is the situation here, what I do with any information that comes my way is my decision. But it can get complicated. For instance, one of our favored vendors other than Pete is also working on a ford based IRS. He'd rather keep his design to himself until it is ready to release and even afterwards if possible. (It's debatable whether that or an open market approach such as that used by Fast Cars works better in the long run.) The point is, I have to honor his wishes if he asks me not to disclose proprietary information. At this point that hasn't happened but I want to avoid being in the position of exchanging information and then having anyone feel like I gave away their secrets. At the same time I'd like to be free to use any trick I run across, and in the process of doing that I very well may disclose what someone else is working on simply because I found it somewhere else. Don't feel bad about that, it isn't intentional and I didn't steal it from you and if it's out there in the public domain you can't protect it anyway. Should that happen I will usually tell you first but regardless I will try to show where I found it. If I happened to figure out the same or a very similar way of solving a problem, then all I can say is that great minds think alike. So if you have something proprietary just ask me not to share it and mum's the word as long as it doesn't show up somewhere else. The added advantage for you is that once you've disclosed it to me I can't very well come up with it on my own.
Having said that, Pete I do intend to call you the first chance I get. I owe Steve a call too but it's been pretty hectic lately.
Oh, and here's a shot with one of the hub carrier blanks I had cut out.
Jim
MVC-267S.JPG
I talked to Pete and it turns out we've been working in about the same direction. One find we both made is the Explorer differential cover, which if you look straight at the back of it there is a mounting boss out to each side with a cast in structure that looks sort of like a football.8.8cover.jpg
This cover appears to be shallow enough to fit in the available space. Pete says the Explorer case is aluminum as well and has just one of the same type of ears up by the pinion that the T-bird case has. This may be a good option as only one battery box would be affected. One of the links above is for an auction of an Expedition diff:
NaviExpeditiondiff.JPG
The photo shows two important features. First, it is an iron case so it will be roughly 15 lbs heavier, but it is sprung weight. Second note the attachment arm bolted to the case next to the pinion. The dimensions here would be critical, but it appears that this unit may allow the use of a mount which will clear both battery boxes.
There is one other issue. Apparently the Expedition may have used two different units, both the 8.8 and the 9.75, and when I asked the seller did not know which one this is. If anyone has an Expedition or Navigator that they could take a look at maybe we can figure this out.
Jim
My sources tell me that the '03-'04 Expedition used the 8.8" carrier with the 4.6L engine. Next task in this project would be to find one.
Jim
The R200 diff used in the WRX STi is also used in the Infinity Q45 (V8), the 300zx twin turbo and is a popular upgrade for heavily built Nissan drifters and dragsters. It weighs ~75lbs, has limited slip and 4.06 ring and pinion (or 3.60?? depending). See this post for more info:
http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=114798
I wouldn't dismiss this one as too weak so quickly. It may be perfect for a kit in that it is cheap and easily found in boneyards. The dimensions may be more compact than the American units - but I haven't verified this.
Will, that's great info. I have a 3.3 LS in my R200S; hadn't looked yet to see what was out there that would be closer to 3.5 if i decide i want to swap it out later... you just saved me several hours research time!
It's worth looking into. I don't like the rear cover mounts though, there isn't enough room for all that in front of the tank. If there was a cover that looked more like the 8.8 one above maybe it could work though. The other problem is with the side yokes and it's the same problem with the Jag unit, how to convert from a universal stub on the diff to a 6 ball CV stub at the axle. The T-bird uses a 3 ball sliding coupler. I'm not saying any of this is easy, the T-bird has no provision for mounting the brakes inboard and that should be fairly easy with the r200. It might even be possible to plug the T-bird stubs into the dana or r200 case, I really don't know yet and even if it is there's still the small matter of a disc mounting flange that would have to be welded to the coupler body. At this point I'm just trying to find ways to simplify, and believe it or not, the Jag is looking like the best solution. Odds are that system will get done first anyway and in the process I very well might decide it would be best for the roadster as well. A lot of that decision may very well hinge on what I can come up with for a top link. But that discussion is over on the Roadmaster thread.
My new tire came in yesterday, it's a Dunlop Qualifier so it doesn't match the BFG's exactly and it's NOS and hard as the dickens, but it's the right size so I'm grateful to get it. That means the car will go up on jackstands and the springs will get swapped out while I'm sealing the rim halves and changing the tire. The 3 other tires aren't quite as bad so I bought some time by doing this and will be able to drive the car more. I think it'll be nice to get back closer to a stock ride height, even if the cornering does suffer a bit. I've not really had a chance to do anything on the engine or tranny lately as I've got the motorcycle torn down and have been concentrating on getting that back together, but I hope to order parts for the transmission next week. It's a 2004r slushbox but I'm planning a few tricks for that which I hope will make it better suited to the car.
Jim
Jim here is some info on R200 Differential's and ratio's. I'm using the 3.54.1 ratio in my TR6. It was easy to find at local recycle Nissan yards.
diff_source.jpg
I don't know if this helps, how about an irs diff out of a GTO 2004 or 5. On ebay for the whole setup 500.
2005gtoirsgoodfor400hp.jpg
2005irsgtowholepackagewithdiskbrakescalipers.jpg
That's interesting. The two main trouble spots are the gas tank and the battery boxes. This means we need a cover without a mount on it (or perhaps off to the sides like the explorer) and a snout with the mounts located in real tight to the pinion or above it. Looking at that one it appears the diff is bolted solidly to the support, giving the kind of compactness we need. It also has the type of inner CV joint that would allow a spider for a brake rotor to be bolted to the CV body for inboard brakes. It's just possible this could be the missing piece of the puzzle, with more pictures maybe I could tell. But using the T-bird layout for the arms and that center section could be the answer.
Jim
More pic's for you on the 04-5 GTO irs.
1ac2_0.jpg
7e53_0.jpg
7f1a_0.jpg
7ff4_0.jpg
The Pic's are to small. I tried to enlarge them but they were all distorded.
I found these pic's on ebay motors . Do a search for ebay store "Cleveland Pick-A-Part" the seller "pick-a-part"
Location OH
You will be able to see them in bigger pic format. His store has 27 pages . At this time it is on page 14. He does have several to look at.
Also there was a 06-7 Dodge Charger IRS to page 22 I think.
Hope this can help,
Calvin
Are people retaining the stock MGB fuel tanks in their V-8 conversions? I had to replace my tank with a 14 gallon fuel cell to extend the range of my car. With the stock tank, I was always looking for a gas station, which gets old fast on a road trip. Here is a picture with the carpet removed. Yes, that's a 2400 watt amplifier - some people never grow up...
IMG_0283.JPG
If the stock fuel tank is replaced, options are opened for more elaborate IRS mounts.
Will, I'm not going to do that. Between moving the tank and doing the IRS, if it requires tank modification of any kind the tube axle stays. Same with the battery boxes. This is either going to bolt in to the stock existing attachment points without any changes to the body or it isn't going to happen at all. That is, with the possible exception of a forward mount near the pinion, but even there what I'm looking for is a modification of only one hole being drilled in the pan that bridges the bottom of the tranny tunnel or something along that line. I want it to be possible to unbolt and drop out the existing rear suspension, jack the new IRS into place, and bolt it up. No cutting, no welding, no hammering. Maybe drill one hole. That's it. If it takes more than that, forget it. Now the Jag setup on the Roadmaster is something altogether different, but that's a different project.
Calvin suggested the R200 and after looking at his thread over on the TR forum I'm seeing some very interesting things there. For instance, the Richard Good flange adapters, which may allow a CV type half shaft to be used with a Jag center section. Well, at least it adds options. Calvin, I have a question I'm hoping you might answer for me. I know you feel the R200 diff is strong enough. (Could you tell me the ring diameter?) My question is, if you measure across the width of the housing right at the front mounting lugs what is that measurement? I want to know if it might possibly fit between the battery boxes. If it will then the next issue would be supporting the rear of the housing. If those two issues can be resolved then the R200 might be a good candidate. I would also like to know where you got your half-shafts. edit: Found it. Richard Good's website.
The Jag diff is one we know will fit in the available space, although control arms might be an issue. The 2003-2004 4.6L Expedition unit is not showing up on ebay with any regularity for whatever reason. I've not seen one yet but I'm still watching for one.
As for other aspects of the project, Jack Morris donated a set of '64 300 heads to the Roadmaster project and they were on the trailer when Steve and Eric came up last weekend, along with some assorted parts. Some we might be able to sell to raise money, and some we won't, but I am considering buying the heads for the 340. The combustion chambers looked good, as did the ports and water jackets, but the spark plug hole on one head was wallowed out very badly and looked like it had been tapped one sized larger and then wallowed out again. Does anybody know if that can be welded up and repaired for anything approaching the cost of another head? (Does anybody have a good 300 head they want to get rid of?)
Jim
Hi Jim, I took some pics of my R200S (short nose version) yesterday, but forgot to download them to my PC... I can send you pics & measurements later this evening or tomorrow if you still want them.
Sure Rob. I might as well check it out. And no matter what I do the half shafts will be a challenge.
Jim
Getting back to the engine, I've talked to Dale Spooner about the heads. Apparently he did some work on 300 heads in cooperation with a rather skilled porting guy up in Vermont. They'll be talking it over during Christmas break but he indicated that in order to benefit from oversized valves some pretty extensive porting work would be needed, and for a moderate lift cam the biggest gains were had with a 30* valve angle in the intake.
In reality it's all a pretty new area though since I will be putting the heads on a 340 short block instead of a 300 and then running a blower. Maybe the small ports and valves will give me good gas mileage. Maybe the boost will be enough to offset the small valves/ports. Maybe leaving it near stock and using the 30* angle is the best approach. Maybe swapping in the better valve springs from my old Buick 215 heads is a good idea. Maybe, maybe, maybe. The one thing I know for sure is that Dale won't pick up the heads until late January so I might as well work on something else. Still, at least he did say that getting the spark plug hole fixed wouldn't be a problem.
In the meantime I have a shortblock to tear down and reassemble, a transmission to build, and an IRS to construct. At least I'm not running out of things to do. Now if only my parts guy would find that elusive NOS 1973 Mustang hub and rotor.
Jim
I've been working on the brakes. This all started because I found one usable 256/50-14 tire on ebay and in the process of fitting it to the car I noticed... well you know how it goes. I decided to try fixing one nagging problem I've had since 1980 which is hub-centric wheels on lug-centric hubs. Probably the ultimate solution is a new set of wheels and tires but being the cheap Scott that I am I decided that adapter rings should work, made up a set for the back and while pulling the front hubs discovered scored rotors. No problem, ordered a set. They are only available as a hub/rotor assembly though. More money but I get them anyway. Take the first one out, break it down, and start planning how I'll incorporate an adapter ring. I've pretty well decided to use the ford hub (1973 Mustang), put the rotor to the outside and space the caliper bracket to match and even machined down the flange to go inside the rotor when I open the second box.
It's a one piece assembly. Not only that but it turns out it's the only way anyone makes them any more. Which is fine if you own a Mustang, but not so great for me. Suddenly my brake rotors are obsolete, and worse than that they've fallen into the gap between obsolete and restoration. The first box I opened was the last two piece assembly on the planet earth. I did manage to reclaim one old rotor before it went to the scrappers and it only has one score mark in it so it's usable in a pinch, but what a revoltin' development! No new hub for that side so that plan is out the window. I might be able to fit rings to the existing hubs but it'll take a good bit of work and since my tires are also obsolete and in the gap what's the point? Will the other three thin tires last the 5 or 6 years it may take Coker to pick them up? Not if I drive the car the way I want to. Those Centerline Drag-Lite wheels were never made to last for decades either and are showing their age, wouldn't be a real big surprise to start seeing cracks in them, what with the sealing and pitting problems I'm seeing now on the inside. I guess the thing to do is just to slap it back together as-is and start shopping for wheels and tires, and look for a new plan on the brakes. Best laid plans and all that, who would have thought... I really can't afford Wilwood and they might go obsolete just as fast for all I know. I guess that's the price we pay for progress. So now I have 5 lug hubs that are spaced about an inch out from the 4 lug flanges, an obsolete rotor nobody makes anymore, pads that are hard to find, but at least the caliper brackets use the stock attachments. Well, at least modern technology should provide me with lighter calipers if nothing else, and possibly lighter rotors too. Wonder what Mitsubishi is using these days?
Jim
The rotors from Tire rack ended up being the one piece ones and had to be sent back so the old rotor with one score mark in the back will go back on the car. I've found a solution for the pcv plumbing on the 215 blower motor and if I'm willing to pull the heads again should be able to cure the one remaining flaw with that engine, a slow leak of combustion gases into the coolant system. I could make or possibly borrow an o-ring groove cutter, have the heads checked for porosity and use composite gaskets with o-rings and I think it'd hold OK.
I've also been looking for small diameter stainless tubing for the front end lift cylinders, I'm thinking 1/16 or 1/8" tubing would work fine, be easy to route and is flexible enough that a loop or two would be all I need near the connections to the cylinders. Small pressure hose was impossible to find but I think this will work.
Jim
You know I've been thinking about this transmission situation. Now I've pretty well determined that it's going to be an automatic, and with the 340 engine the choices are pretty much between the 2004r and the 700r4 and it's progeny except that the 700r4 is not available in a BOP pattern. But an automatic transmission really shifts like crap if you want to drive it hard. The rest of the time they're fine but for the twisties they never do what you want. They shift early, downshift or upshift when you want to stay in gear, don't downshift quick enough, don't upshift quick enough, and in general just miss the optimum shift point every time, to say nothing of the fact that they have absolutely no notion of how to enter a turn. Facing facts, it's just a dumb mechanical device. But then I've been driving this (relatively) new 2002 truck and it does a whole lot better. Reason is that the computer controls the shifts. So that must be the answer. Set it up so the computer can control it. No rocket science there, no new technology. My efi controller can handle that with very few changes. BUT, the 4L60E won't work without an adapter and the gears in that aren't as good as the ones in the 2004r that I already have. Hmmm.... both are 4 speeds with lock up converter.... I think I'll see if I can get a valve body from a 4L60E and see if I can adapt the computer controls to the 2004r. Wouldn't that be a trick? There might even be a market for it. If I'm really lucky the sensors and solenoids will lend themselves to being mounted to operate the 2004r shift valves and not much more will be needed but like most things it's never quite that simple. Well I guess that's one more item for my shopping list.
Jim
Here's a neat oil filler cap.
MVC-402S.JPG
If you've been following the PCV thread, this is part of the conversion to a British type pcv system and the cap contains a filter and an orifice to limit air going into the crankcase. The other valvecover is plumbed directly to the blower intake so at idle it sees full vacuum and at WOT it vents blowby into the inlet where it is re-ingested. This system seems like it'll work well with a blower installation where the throttle body is upstream of the blower inlet and also upstream of the filter housing, and gives me more leeway in designing the inlet for the M112 blower to go on the 340. I started the engine today (the Olds 215) and it looks like some recalibration may be in order, but it was quite cold so I'm quite certain the calibration would not have been correct at any rate as I don't believe I've had an opportunity to tune it at that low temperature. I didn't let it run long enough to warm up either so I have no conclusions yet about how well this system will work. The idle seemed high, but again, it was cold. Anyway, ain't that a purty part?
Jim
Jim,
I have'nt been in looking at this post lately... but noticed the question on the measurements on the R200 diff. Today I will measure all over the R200. I also have a picture I will post later of the R200 out of the frame with the brackets on the diff.
I don't know if you looked at bowtie6.com (Joe's TR6 that has the long nose R200, which I believe is a strong R200..used in drag cars). Lots of picures to look at in his site.
Calvin
From bowtie6.com:
"The mass of a V8 would upset the handling and balance ..."
That urban legend just won't go away! ;)
Carl,...OH no! "The mass of a V8 would upset the handling and balance ..."
I hope I have'nt made a mistake ;-)
Jim,....specs on R200
Front bolt mounts on R200 from Q45. .........6"1/8"
Front flange bolt up area outside to outside..8"1/8"..So case at that point is 4"1/8" or pinion staft area.
From Front U-joint flange to rear finned cover is...17"1/4"
From flange to flange on output to rear wheels...13"3/8" + or - a little
From output shaft to output shaft (case measurement)...8*1/2"
From bottom finned cover to top of case......9"1/8" + or - a little
Here is some pictures.
diff.jpg
diffrear.jpg
Picture277.jpg
Picture278.jpg
more pics
Picture282.jpg
Picture279.jpg
Picture281.jpg
Picture275.jpg
MGBV8 Wrote:
> That urban legend just won't go away! ;)
We'll dispense with it once and for all when the Roadmaster is running.
So Carl, would you mind posting the update on the Roadmaster engine progress, or would you rather I did it? I probably need to get some info on there about the upcoming weekend.
-------------------------------------------------------
My opinion is that if Carl thinks an MGB with a V8 will handle, I'd like to see the guy who is qualified to dispute it. Maybe an MGB with a GMC 8-71 or something totally nutso like that... But then again, there might be a way...
No, NO, NO!!!! Absolutely NOT!!! I will not be a party to any such madness!!! (At least not until the Roadmaster and the 340 upgrade are done.) NO!!!!
This cold weather sure slows things down. One of these years I'll have real heat in the workshop and things will move along a bit quicker. For a boy who grew up with a barn with gaps between the boards of the walls and happy to have those and a home-made barrel heater, just having solid insulated walls and a clean concrete floor are a major plus. Guess I could build another barrel heater but it had a voracious appetite and I don't have enough trees on the place to feed it. Still, the gas furnace is in place, just need a little work to make it put out heat. Sad to say I just don't want to mess with it in the cold. Funny how that works. I could get real creative and make a propane powered oil burning radiant monster in the middle of the floor, which would be kinda fun to build, but then it'd be in the way most of the time. Anybody guess it's cold today?
I'm hoping to be able to mock up the engine and blower in a few weeks and begin tacking parts together for the blower intake. For that to happen I will need to get Dale to ship back to me the two heads that we aren't going to use for this engine. I'll use that pair of heads for fitting and then possibly sell them when I'm done. Don't know if I'll use the heat-pipe intercooler this time or not. It seemed to work pretty well, and visibility over the scoop hasn't been a problem, but I must confess it looks a little odd. I will have to datalog some runs with it before I can make a decision one way or the other, and the alternatives will be an air/liquid system or air/air. If I were to go air/air I really think I'd have to look at alternatives to a front radiator.
I really wanted to build an engine with a higher rpm potential. But this block came with cast pistons fitted. If they were low compression slugs I'd be motivated to move up to forged, but since they have the CR I'm looking for it makes it much harder to justify the purchase. Especially when power is not even an issue. I have one or two things to finish up before I'll have the bench space to tear down the short block but once I look at the pistons and the bore clearances I might change my mind about it. I'd really love to have a 7 grand redline. It's just more fun.
I won the bid on a 4l60e valve body so in a few days I'll get a chance to see what needs to be done to fit the shifting solenoids from it to the 2004r. Megasquirt can control all of the shift parameters as well as the line pressure if I can put the hardware together so at least in theory there's the chance of getting the shifting under control. If I get it to work, this may be a product that Blackwood Labs will have to make available for purchase. But we'll see. There's much to do first.
Jim
Jim,
Check this thread out..it may have some info in there for you that might interest you. Talks about Nissan differentials.
http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=114798
"So Carl, would you mind posting the update on the Roadmaster engine progress, or would you rather I did it?"
Sorry Jim, I'm off to do Boy Scouts tonight. Besides, it's more fun to read your stuff! :)
MGBV8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Besides, it's more fun to read your stuff! :)
OK Carl, I'll take care of it, soon as I can get the cat to let me be.
Calvin, that was some very good info. I did some measuring and we only have a fraction over 7" between the battery boxes so the diff you used is too wide at the mounts. But in looking at the long nose (R200) diff it looks like it could be narrow enough to work. That might bear looking into, do you think you could confirm? Both sets of front mount bosses would need to be narrower than 7" outside to outside and the rear mounts might still be a challenge, but perhaps that could be designed around. At just under an 8" ring diameter I'm still a little skeptical about the strength of the ring and pinion where I am expecting to have significantly more than 400 ft/lbs of available torque with the blower (375 stock N/A) but perhaps the light weight of the car will offset that some. I can appreciate the advantage in leverage of the longer housing, especially as it is only 4 lbs heavier than the short version. Too bad they never made an R215. Anyway, it bears further investigation, especially as the 8.8 expedition unit does not seem to be real common.
Jim
Jim,
Here is another site for Long nose R200.
Site below.
http://www.datsport.com/R200_diff.html
I'm trying to find you the measurements on the pinoin area.
Calvin
Thanks Calvin. No LN R200's presently on ebay, but two interesting possibilities are the BMW 735i diff and the Mopar 8-3/4" unit. The Beemer may be compact enough and has a nice 3 bolt side attachment on the pinion, the main issue being the depth of the rear cover, which is replaceable. The Mopar is a drop out center section much like the 8 and 9" Ford but appears to have a higher pinion location which would make it more efficient (my main complaint with the Ford diffs) and the housing could be modified to IRS configuration. I don't know how common they are or what vehicles they were used on but I'm guessing they ought to be about as common as dirt. It's a good bit of extra work over finding one that will work without modification but could be worthwhile.
I'm planning on picking up a dead 735 diff on Monday to test fit it to the car and should know more after that.
Jim
"The Mopar is a drop out center section much like the 8 and 9" Ford but appears to have a higher pinion location which would make it more efficient (my main complaint with the Ford diffs)"
Mine too. The 8.75 Mopar is a very good unit. I have a friend that has one under a 57 Chevy with a 6-71 blower.
I was a little disappointed with the Beemer diff. Physically it will fit into the space OK, but the ring gear is about a 7-1/2 to 7-3/4" piece. I do not doubt that they are excellent parts, made of the finest materials, but personally I feel that is a bit small for this application. The stock 340 puts out 365 ft/lbs of torque and with the blower it is completely within reason to forsee 450 ft/lbs or more, and I have my doubts that any ring and pinion of less than 8" diameter is going to last long under that kind of stress. IIRC the stock MG ring is not much under 8" itself.
So that leaves me looking at the Mopar, the Nissan, and the Ford 8.8 and possibly Jag (Dana 44). John did have a big selection of half shafts and I may have to go back and look at those again.
The Nissan diff having a 200mm ring is also under 8" at 7.87" or about 7-7/8" but possibly close enough. I consider it just a little marginal for this engine, but still a possiblilty.
The Mopar 8-3/4 still looks quite attractive. Carl, would you happen to know what cars used this axle? It would need some machine work on the housing but it's feasible to do this.
Still watching for the right 8.8 housing, so far no luck. Ford production numbers would sure be handy.
The Jag is still in the running. Recent fitting on the Roadmaster suggests it can meet the installation requirements, and could end up being the best choice still. Needs to be converted to CV half-shafts and have an upper link in order to have a modern suspension, but that may not be all that difficult.
Jim
Jim
Are you planning on modifing the Mopar 8 3/4" for IRS?
Bill
That would have to be considered as an option Bill. I see that these axles were widely used until 1974 and there could still be a large number of them available at reasonable cost. Since they used a formed steel housing (banjo type) the modifications would include cutting off the tubes and welding on bearing housings close to the center and the addition of mounting brackets. All in all not a terrible lot of modification. I do not think an aluminum carrier is or will ever be available for them but I could be wrong. At any rate, it looks feasible. I wonder what stub shafts and bearings/bearing housings are used on the 9" ford IRS center sections?
Jim
Jim,
More info.
The V6 and i-Force 4.7 V8 Tundra models' rear differential uses a 9.5-inch ring gear, and the i-Force 5.7 models step up to a 10.5-inch ring gear - one of the largest in the segment. All Tundra differentials are made using new machining technology: "face hob" gear cutting for ring and pinion gears yields stronger tooth form and a greater engagement area for increased torque capacity and reduced gear noise.
I have a Tundra and it does ride smooth.
Couldn't you work on the R230 and take off some of the front mounts so it wouldn't be so wide at the mounting area around the pinion, and fab out some king of bracket. The front of the R200 is about the same as the R230. 8 1/2 '' that isn't that far off from 7"
...3/4" of an inch on both sides.
Just a thought.
Calvin
See that was the attraction of the long nose 200 Calvin, no need to modify or cut down the housing. I feel a lot more comfortable modifying a banjo housing than a cast piece if I'm going to have to do that. Any welds are a lot more likely to be sound and tolerate abuse. I also think any ring gear over 9" is going to be serious overkill even with something like the Roadmaster. The ring of the 230 is certainly big enough, but it won't fit the available space without some pretty serious modification and I doubt the average builder is going to want to make those mods. Had they made a 215 or 220 long nose or even a short unit with bolt on side pinion mount that would have been ideal I expect.
Personally I think the goal here is for a shippable kit that does not include heavy items like the pumpkin. A very short banjo housing is reasonable, a cast housing, not so much. One that uses a stock unmodified center section, even better. Unfortunately the universe of housings meeting the requirements is very small at present. I was pretty happy to see the mopar as an alternative. I've learned that it came in 3 basic configurations and perhaps the "A" body unit is the best choice. It is likely to have a light weight housing. The pinion is smaller at 1-3/8" diameter but this should be adequate and the axle bolt circle is 4" where the larger housings use a 4-1/2" BC, but that isn't terribly relevant to this application. Plus with the drop out center section it is very easy to set up the gears and differential. Much, much easier in fact than for instance a Dana.
bfc2_1.JPG
bfc2_1.JPG
This is a "B" body housing. The tapered sections on either side of the housing may cause difficulties but otherwise cutting the tubes and re-welding the bearing carriers would not be much trouble. I don't know which carrier is pictured, but from this perspective it seems to be deeper from the differential bearings to where the case narrows appreciably than it has to be. That could be a problem, so test fitting will be required befort deciding to go that way. Incidentally, I just discovered that an aluminum carrier as well as an aluminum yoke are available. Pricey, and the weight reduction is only maybe 15 lbs, but some folks would be interested I'm sure.
http://www.jimsautoparts.com/mopar_performance_drivetrain.htm
On the other hand, the Jag unit is readily available at fair prices and is already configured for mounts and inboard brakes. That's a significant advantage. There are good reasons why it is the most popular package for IRS.
Jim
Jim,
Jag IRS on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jaguar-Rear-Differential-and-suspenion_W0QQitemZ190195775767QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190195775767
Calvin
"Carl, would you happen to know what cars used this axle?"
Uh, lots & lots of Mopars? :)
Best pumpkins are the 742 & 489.
Great summary here:
http://www.usaimports.co.uk/Mopar_Tech_Pages/mopar_rear_ends.htm
Jim, the rear from a Corvette was mentioned early in the discussion. I've been doing some checking and this might be one to consider. There's a good selection of ratios available, the ring gear is about 8" and they did hold up behind the big block Vette's of the early 70s so they can stand some torque. There are a couple of rear covers available that eliminate the original spring mount and tighten up the size quite a bit and IIRC the nose isn't too wide to fit between the battery boxes. Or you could have a steel plate cut that would mount on the rear cover bolts and then use a really close fitting sheet steel cover for minimum size. The plate would then be the rear mount. You're still stuck with a U-joint half shaft with the stock stub axles, but that's something that is pretty easy to adapt if you really want to go to CV joints. The conversion of a banjo style housing to an IRS center can be done, the early Heidt type rear ends for the street rodders were based on a modified Ford 9" housing, they now have a custom alloy housing which is a bit narrower.
Jim
When I had the machine shop narrow my 8 3/4". He chucked up the housing in a large lathe, at the center points where the bearings fit. Then built up the housing tubes at the point of cuts, with welding beads. Then machined the welded area true, this "true's up" the outer surface to the bearing surface. From there it was just a matter of cutting the flanges off and matching the outer surface, then weld them up. This process corrects the stamped housing to the center point of the axles.
He cut the stock axles and re-splined them.
Been running that same rear end since 1982 with no problems, although it was probably over-kill for my previous engine combos. I'm glad that I have it for the S/C engine now.
B body drum brakes are 10" x 1 3/4" (same as MGB), but are a dual sevro type. So you get more braking power then with the same sized expanding shoe type MGB brake. There are 13/16" wheel cylinders (same as MGB GT) available to fit the Mopar brakes. I believe they were from a early 70's Dodge 1/2 ton PU.
Quite a few 8 3/4" rears came with a limited slip diff, combined a wide selection of gear ratios, is why I chose to go with the Mopar.
Bill
Good find Calvin, one a little closer would be nice. Maine is a long drive for a local pick-up. Good info on the 8-3/4 Carl. So far I haven't seen anything on housing weights but one from an A body might be a good choice since it would be hard to break even the 741 in an MGB.
Bill, I seem to recall that the early Vette diff is a Dana 44 also (at least some years). The ring diameter on those is 8-1/2" so they are plenty strong enough for the MGB. In fact, that size is probably near perfect for a high powered MG. The Corvette rear could be made to work. I think it would be more difficult to mount than the Jag version.
Jim
Bill J. Thanks, I just about missed your post. Sounds like a very good axle for a S/C setup. There is indeed an aluminum center section available, see earlier post. The price I saw was around nine hundred so a little expensive for 11 to14 lbs. There may be others.
Jim
Believe it or not, I've been looking at a Ford Expedition/Navi 9.75" IRS diff. It seems almost inconceivable that one of those could be small enough to fit the available space, but it may be and they aren't hard to find. It has a side mounting pad for the pinion mount which is reportedly 3-1/2" from the pinion centerline, meaning that a 1/2" offset should be enough to give adequate clearance. The rear mounts are on the cover very much like the Mustang 8.8" unit and the distance from axle centerline to the back of the rear cover is about 5 to 5-1/2", meaning that it may fit.
Now it's very obvious that this is massive overkill in terms of strength and that probably means extra weight which we don't need. But on the plus side, it is sprung weight, it shifts the weight balance a bit to the rear which isn't a bad thing, and then there's the clutch type posi unit to consider. These units as a rule tend to be less effective than we'd like due to a small clutch area and rapid wear, and are often marginally effective within sometimes as little as 20,000 miles. A bigger unit in a lighter car means it will be under stressed and should work better and last longer, both very good things. In addition, the pinion mount point is very beefy, being designed for a 3 ton vehicle so building a strong enough mounting system should be pretty easy.
My truck should have the same diff, though a solid axle instead of IRS. So in the next few days I hope to have a chance to drive it up on the maintenance pit and take some measurements. Then we'll have a better idea if it's a viable candidate.
Jim
Navidiff.JPG
Navi9.75.JPG
Navi9.75b.JPG
Navi9.75a.JPG
I didn't buy the 9.75" unit. The more I thought about it the more it just seemed too big. The pinion mount surface would have been flush with the battery box unless the diff was offset and then the handbrake would be in the way of the driveshaft and then there is all that weight.
Instead I've been looking at a new approach to the Jag unit. The Dana 44 used in the Jag IRS has an ideal ring size at 8-1/2". It isn't that much bigger (heavier) than the stock MGB unit but it will handle any engine and transmission we could reasonably put in the car. It can be mounted without undue fuss and bother, using a method that will allow pinion angle adjustment, and it comes with inboard brakes. What it does not come with is an upper control arm of any sort and because of this it is much heavier than it might otherwise be. These shortcomings can be remedied.
As I mentioned on the Roadmaster thread, Spicer sells slip yokes which can be used in combination with U-joints, driveshaft flanges and stub shafts to make up short units that can take the place of the Jag half shaft. I will have to do some checking on specific parts but this gets us the push-pull capability that is inherent in CV type half shafts and allows the use of an upper control arm (UCA). Based on past experience with 4 wheel drive and divorced transfer cases I'm confident that the right combination of parts can be found.
Once we're free to use a UCA the logical next step is to triangulate it so that it can transfer thrust loads to the body. By doing this we achieve two very important things in addition to locating the top of the wheel. First we remove the torque loading of the upright which is inherent in the original design. Second we split the thrust load between the lower and upper control arms, allowing the use of lighter, thinner materials. These two changes mean that the combined weight of both CA's is now significantly less than what is needed to prevent deformation of the original LCA. In the process we can eliminate the radius rods used in the original installation as well, with their engineered in binding and slop.
At this point I still plan to use the uprights that I had waterjet cut for the T-bird IRS, which move the outer pivot points outwards to the point that they are actually inside the rim itself, thereby allowing the use of longer control arms for better suspension geometry. By the time it's put together I could decide that a built up unit will work as well or better but since I have these I might as well use them. I will probably stick pretty close to the T-bird arm length and pickup points, and may even use the T-bird bushings for adjustability and because in the lighter car they will be stiffer and therefore more precise. For hubs I haven't decided. I need a compact hub that uses a cartridge bearing and a chevy lug pattern, but there should be several choices for that. A four bolt flange on the stub shaft or a U-joint yoke either one should work.
Jim
Turns out my quest for tires may be marginally easier than I had thought, I'll know more after I do some searching. Could be no better. But I made a mistake. Don't even know how or why but somehow I'd gotten the notion that there was a 1:2 relationship between tread width and tire height. Not so! The BFG 265/50-14 is 10" wide mounted on a 7" rim and tread width is slightly less, say 9-1/2 depending on where in the curve you say the edge is. So while the search is still difficult it may not be impossible. There may be a 15" wheel and tire that will do the trick.
Jim
Big news in the engine department. Mike Tomaszewski of TA Performance has informed me that he is looking into making a set of heads to fit the Rover engine. This came about due to the inquiries of one of our Australian friends, who asked Mike if he could make a product to compete with Wildcat or Wilpower. It turns out of course that TA's existing high performance aluminum head for the Buick V6 is easily converted back into a V8 head by the simple expedient of combining parts of two existing V6 molds, resulting in a Rover head that has every feature of TA's formidable V6 heads. Naturally this head would also fit the 215 provided the valves would clear the bore, but more importantly, it would fit the 300 and the mighty 340! Remember also that the 340 is only a .050" overbore from being a 350, so a lightweight 350 with tremendous performance potential is well within reach. Even more interesting, by the simple expedient of using a 340 cam, intake and exhaust, these heads will bolt right up to the Buick 350 block! (some of the cam bearings will need to be sleeved to fit the block) Buick 350's are both plentiful and cheap, as well as being a bit lighter than either the 300 or 340.
How's that for some news you can use? The release date hasn't been set, in fact Mike is still considering the idea. But once the decision has been made the road to sales should be a short one.
Jim
I will be continuing on with my plan to use the '64 300 heads. Dale has those heads and is working on them now, so probably he will send them along with the engine for the Roadmaster when that comes back next month.
I got the roadster back down on it's wheels today, new brakes and all. It's still too muddy to get it out and see how the suspension is going to act, as it sits the rear is stiff and high. But I expect it to loosen up and settle after it's been driven. Gives it a rather rakish appearance, not that it needed it. Once we get past the tax returns I'm planning on putting down gravel and the mud will no longer interfere with my driving, which would be real nice on days like today.
I've learned a lot about tires lately, and wheels. Exactly what that'll mean on setting up this car is yet to be determined, but one thing I know, I can go a LOT bigger on the rear tires.
Jim
so did you do an IRS or put it back on the ground using your existing axle? What tires did you put on it?
I won't get the IRS done until after the one in the Roadmaster, so it's still sitting on the stock axle and the old hard 265/50-14 BFG's. I've got a whole new drivetrain in the works, front to back but it'll take a good bit of time to put it all together and there are still IRS parts to buy and to design. In the meantime I'll have to decide whether to stick with the ford lug pattern or go chevy, look for suitable rear wheels, decide on the rear tire size but I'm thinking that a 315/35-17 would fit just about right. The Sumitomo HTR Z at $99 for an ultra high performance summer radial seems like a good choice, but finding the right wheels won't be easy. Anyway before I go there I still need to find the right differential. I'm not seeing a lot of good choices on ebay right now so that's holding up the project. Did see a sweet Corvette dana 44 3.55 posi aluminum case unit but at 2500 bucks, ouch, not for me. So I'm still looking.
Jim
Not much new to report, but with the weather getting warmer that should change soon. I did however get a couple of rolls of 1/8" stainless tubing ordered. This will be used to plumb the hydraulics for the front tilt assembly. I will attempt to use the existing gas charged cylinders (maybe I should say gas leaked cylinders) and plumb them for the hydraulic lines. The remaining challenges will be the valves and accumulators. This will connect to the tilt/trim pump in the trunk. In this way I hope to finally have the tilt assembly fitting the same way it did before I took it off to paint it. Somehow it has never fit quite as well since and I think it has to do with the force applied by the gas struts.
Dale Spooner is working on the 300 heads and they will be coming back with the 455 engine for the Roadmaster project in about a month and a half. At that point I will tear down the reman shortblock and reassemble using ARP rod bolts and making whatever other changes seem appropriate, and then install heads, valve covers, pan and front cover. Focus will then shift to the blower intake and the transmission.
In the meantime all I need to be able to drive the car is fresh gravel on the driveway to the lab and that's just waiting on the weather.
Jim
Jim,
So I guess I willbe picking up, from Dale, the 455 block, crank, heads, pistons, rods and 2 340 heads?
Just trying to decide what trailer to drag along. I would prefer the luggage trailer. Think all that will fit?
Also, do you need another engine stand? I could bring it along also. If so it will probably be the open trialer.
I think I will be picking it up on April 24 if Dale has it all ready.
Steve
Another stand would be handy, especially if we decide to do any work on the 430 BBB. The load should be identical otherwise to the one we delivered to him. You might get all that stuff in your white trailer, but I could see a possibility of some of it ending up in the trunk.
Jim
Jim,
What trunk. My BGT has no trunk. I think it will all fit in the white trailer and that would mean protection from the weather.
I'll disassemble on of my engine stands and see if it will fit in the back of the GT.
Steve
I just won an auction for a set of Corvette rear wheels (plus one front which I won't use). They are 17 x 10" and the price was right. They should work just fine for the rear. This pretty well means I've decided to go to the GM bolt pattern, and Jag or Corvette parts may be used in doing it. What I'll do is, buy or make a set of billet spacers/adapters of the correct thickness to let me use these wheels with the stock axle (they have a lot of backspacing) and then make the IRS the correct width to fit them.
For the time being though I will lend these wheels to the Roadmaster project and use them to set up the Jag IRS on that car. Once that is done I will then use them for my roadster.
Jim
Hey Jim, I saw this in the current issue of KitCar... thought it might give some ideas... rear cover for a Dana 44 diff... shown here on the company's aluminum dana 44 housing...
newmancarcreations.comIRSmount.gif
Jim, I thought you might get a kick and others out of this youtube vid.... I know it's not british but using an R200 diff in this supercharged ls1( correction LT1) 240z...kind of shows that an R200 can handle the power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIL6C25Vfrc
Jim, Here is a 9 sec. 454 supercharged Z running a R200 diff.
The_Z_Dance2.JPG
Thanks guys, that's good info. I did a little research on the r200 diff and it's true that some of them are holding up to very high power levels. What I was seeing at that time was their use in a awd configuration and with some incidence of axle breakage and differential concerns. These problems were being addressed with high strength alloy aftermarket parts iirc, which is something I'd rather avoid if I can, but it's still a good idea to follow what's being done there. That last photo is pretty impressive. The alloy D44 housing and hanger are sweet. I'll try to do a little research on that, it'd be nice to know how dearly they like that one. Probably out of my budget, but you never know.
Jim
Don't know what your budget is Jim, but I'd say they like it pretty dearly... http://www.newmancarcreations.com/differentials.html I was thinking it might spur some ideas more than a purchase order :)
I saw Larry Shimp's post on the Jag IRS thread and fired off an email to the recommended parts supplier. I'm considering going that route. Also I just ordered rear tires to fit the Corvette rear rims. Some will no doubt think them a bit excessive but I couldn't resist. Sumitomo HTR-Z's for $99 each in 315/35-17. It'll be a tight fit but I think I can make them work.
Jim
"Sumitomo HTR-Z's for $99 each in 315/35-17"
That's amazing!
Here is a Australian idea for a Jag lower control arm, I would use a brace on both sides. I like the single shock mount also.You would have to use a stiffer coil over spring ,say 350 lb instead of 200.
jag20dog20bone.jpg
Jim I almost forgot, I remember your thread on brakes for your roadster. You can get brake drum hubs from early Mustang,Fairlane,Cougar and remove drums and have a nice 5 lug hub, You need a swedge cutter. Then find a slip on rotor.Also you can buy 265-50-15 tires at Summit (Cooper Cobra Gt).The link Larry mentioned on the Jag rear on part 3 tells how to go to Ford pattern.
What I thought was amazing was that they called to make sure those were the tires I wanted to order for an MGB. So I sent them a hyperlink.
Jim, that looks like a pretty good idea. Better than gussets since the coil-over is supported in double shear. I still think something along the line of a radius rod is a good idea though, at least for acceleration. The more I think about the rear strut that Arthur suggested the more I like it, and if the LCA has enough torque resistance to resist twist from axle torque then there's no reason why a 5/16" cable wouldn't be stout enough to handle the tension load on that link. Not saying that would be the best solution, just an indication of the minimum requirement. Thanks for the tip about the tires, only thing is that I was looking for 14 inch. It'd still be good if I could find them.
Converting to the Chevy bolt pattern is going to be a little complicated but not too bad I guess. If I use jag parts on the rear that part will be taken care of and I should be able to use Camaro rotors on the front similar to the Arntz/Butler Cobra. But then I'll also have to find a GM space saver spare and I hate to give up my powder coated aluminum spoked Lincoln one. It's a sweet piece. But, maybe I'll get lucky and run across something suitable.
Jim
Got the roadster out for a drive today and definitely enjoyed the weather and the somewhat softer suspension. I'm not sure the rear leafs have loosened up yet though as the car sits a bit high in the rear but that's better than sitting low. I took a page from Bill G's book and added two half-leafs to the front of each spring pack to control the wrap-up, but I also banded the pack tightly in the front and I believe that's causing it to ride high and stiffer than it would otherwise do. I'll give it a week or two and then consider removing the front clamp. There is no hint of wheel hop, though I did lose some of the even traction I had before and the right wheel is now laying about 3 times the rubber that the left one does. This may also be from the clamps, I really have no way to tell except to remove them and try it again.
Since I won't even be able to start on the IRS for a couple months and my new rear tires are on loan to the Roadmaster project until after the summer meet, I plan to use some of that time to either buy or make (most likely) a set of adapter/spacers to center them in the wheelwells and convert from the ford to chevy lug pattern. That way I can run them on the stock axle while I'm developing the bolt-in IRS package. The extra 2" of fresh rubber may shorten the life of the axle but it's a chance I'll take, there's still one more spare axle in the shed.
Talked to Dale a few days ago and he's going to try to send my 300 heads back with Steve when he picks up the 455 for the Roadmaster. That should get me going on the 340 build, which I can do while waiting on the Jag IRS. Considering the push to get the Roadmaster ready for the meet I may not get much done anyway. But the two cars should end up with very similar rear suspensions.
It doesn't look like I'll be able to bring my roadster to the meet this summer, not unless I can convince Edith to drive the truck and pull a trailer with the Roadmaster on it with me in a different car. That's going to be a real tall order. She doesn't mind driving the truck at all, but towing a trailer by herself isn't something she's going to take to very well. So I'm having just a little trouble resigning myself to not having my car there. At least I'll have the Roadmaster there, but of course it will not be driveable. That was one of the choices I didn't recognize I'd have to make when we started that project. I don't mind doing what has to be done, and it will be a good chance to ride in some fine cars so it's still a good thing, just don't expect to see a certain winged beast.
Jim
Jim, how about a trailer that'd hold both the roadmaster & your car? That way you get the best of both worlds.
Sure Rob, that would work. Unfortunately I do not have such a trailer.
Jim
While Steve DeGroat was up here for Roadmaster Weekend we found time to refine the design of the Jag IRS, which will also be going into my roadster.
In this first photo you can see if you look closely what we'd have if the stock Jag 6 degree pinion angle was used in the install. The interesting thing about this photo is that with the 6* that is machined into the top mounting pad we have an angle of inclination across the LCA of an equal amount, meaning that the LCA is parallel to the pinion rather than to the ground, as all documentation I have seen on this swap had led me to believe. This might translate into a slightly smoother ride over bumps but I doubt it improves the handling any. This angle is too steep for use in an MGB conversion as the air cleaner would be through the hood and the tailshaft resting on the tunnel cross member.
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The second photo shows an angle of zero and as you can see the LCA brackets are parallel to the bottom of the car. Again this angle is excessive for a conversion, as the crank would be close to even with the bottom of the differential and no room for the flywheel.
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The third photo shows an angle of 4* and I would consider this the practical limit. The universal default is 3 degrees with cars of this type sometimes using a bit less, so I will be aiming for an adjustment range from 1-4* or a 3 degree span. This should mean a slot in the adjustment plate about 3/8" longer than the bolt diameter, and should pose no difficulties. The 4* starting point will be achieved by canting the support beam 2* relative to the end brackets, and the resulting distance from differential pad to the rear shelf in relation to the tire sizes being used and the height setting will give the recommended 1-2* of downward angle of the axle shafts from the diff to the wheels. The pinion angle adjustment range will result in a variance of no more than 3/16" in the height of the differential, well within an acceptable tolerance.
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We should be around 2* on the drivetrain angle and as you can see from the photos the LCA pivots are well below the plane of the battery boxes, meaning that there should be room enough for a forward triangulated LCA with a third pivot point attached to the floor and tunnel at a location that is forward of the battery boxes. The brace arm may need a slight bend to clear the boxes but not enough to seriously compromise it.
Jim
The recent work on the IRS has been posted to the Roadmaster thread since we are trying to meet a deadline, but as it stands now parts that are needed for this car as well have been duplicated as work on the other car has progressed. This includes the differential crossmember and a set of custom urethane bushings.
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as well as pilot tubes for the LCA shortening operation. While this project benefits from the development of the Roadmaster, that car benefits from materials available for this car as well as time so I think it evens out well enough. The one thing that is different is that the IRS unit for this car is still located in Nashville and will remain there until we can arrange transportation or make a trip to pick it up, so the axle shortening operation will have to be done later.
As for the engine, presently the aluminum 300 heads are being fitted with new valves. I decided not to replace the exhaust valve seats for a couple of reasons. First, a stock type oversize valve was not available. It turned out that the larger valves in that family are a bit longer and I didn't really want to deal with pedestal shims and custom pushrods. Same for fitting valves from another application, as valve length and keepers would have to be jockeyed to get the right combination. So we went with the stock replacement valves. Even at that the valves themselves cost almost $14 each. Secondly, I have never had a problem with valve recession in a 215 engine. So with Dale Spooner on the phone, I took a new chainsaw file to one of the seats in a 215 head I had on the bench and it was definitely harder than annealed cast iron. Dale agreed, and I decided not to replace them.
Now it could be argued that the valves in the '64 300 head are too small for a 340 and I would be the last one to deny it. But according to porting work done in the past by Dale's expert associate (who now limits his work exclusively to hemi engines btw) flow increases in these heads come more from some simple port cleanup than from valve size increases. Since I gave Dale the green light to do some light porting, I'm guessing these heads *may* end up flowing close to what the cast iron heads do, and those heads were used on both the 300 and the 340 without any changes. Another possible potential benefit is that smaller port heads tend to generate more port velocity and can frequently give better fuel economy, and I like that idea. Finally, because this will be a blower engine, port and valve size is less critical. The experts tell us that a blower motor needs to have extensive porting, big valves, and as much flow as possible but these are people who are building things like top fuel dragster engines , and yes if you want the most efficient cylinder filling possible that's the way to go. But the purpose here is quite different. Even without the blower the engine should easily be capable of producing 300 hp and even higher torque figures so we are already past the need for more power. The car is going to be scary fast without another single thing being done to it. Also considering that the valve springs that will go on the heads are good for 7 grand, a 6 grand redline to save the pistons is already well above stock so it will be a motor that's happy to wind up. Limiting the boost to about 12 psi should let the head gaskets stay happy.
So where are we with that? 12 psi and 6 grand on a 347 cid motor with restrictive heads and a stock (or near stock) cam? (Well let's just hold that thought... isn't this the guy that considers a 268H grind to be "near stock"?) Anyway, I really have to go back to my experience with the 215 Olds as a blower motor to draw some comparisons. The Olds heads have the most restrictive intake ports of any SBB/R (Small Block Buick/Rover) derivitive that we are aware of, including the early odd fire V6's. But you take that engine with a stock cam and pump 16psi of boost down the intake and what happens? It behaves quite differently than the typical ported, hot cam big valve drag motor. Where the drag motor is just starting to flow big, this one is shutting down and the charge is stacking up in the intake. Normally we wouldn't consider this a good thing but there are two very significant advantages to it. First and most importantly it boost limits the engine just when it needs it the most, at high (for this engine) rpm and maximum output. By doing this it also limits the pressure the head gaskets are exposed to and extends their life. It is true that this stacking up of the intake charge will generate heat, challenging the intercooler to handle it, but because the application is a street driven car with an 8:1 weight to horsepower ratio it is simply not possible to stay at max boost for more than a few seconds at a time so unless we go racing with it (and that's *really* racing, not playing) it'll be fine.
The second advantage is much more important for a street driven car. Because the blower needs a high drive ratio to produce 16psi in the upper operating range of this engine (between 3 grand and 4800-5200 rpm, limited by the valve springs. Incidentally, CC's new "Beehive" springs may be just the thing for these Oldsmobile 215 heads) this means it is also turning quite fast at idle. Fast enough in fact to begin pressurizing the intake at just about any engine speed if given an unrestricted supply of air. In other words, if you idle off the line and then hammer it, by the time you can look at the boost gage it's in the positive numbers. It then climbs rapidly as speed builds, resulting in a very significant jump in the torque curve. Needless to say, this makes the car very easy to drive, as long as your steering and braking inputs are in order. All this is contrary to conventional wisdom, but again, it isn't a drag racer, though it *is* ridiculously quick. Incidentally, all of this is with stock type cast pistons. To date there have been some issues with head gaskets but reliability has been quite good for the configuration.
Bringing this information forward 4 years to the '67 340 with '64 300 heads, we find an interestingly similar situation. The heads are not big enough for the motor. What to do? Improve on a successful formula perhaps? How about this. In the interest of better fuel economy we increase the CR from 8.5:1 up to maybe as much as 10:1, and reduce the boost accordingly, down around 12 psi. Then just to make things interesting, how about a custom cam grind with a near stock intake lobe and a free breathing exhaust profile with more lift and duration, but reduced overlap? That's my current thinking, all subject to change of course. Anyway, once the heads get here work will resume on the engine. The transmission is currently on hold, waiting for me to compare parts to see if there is a way I can paddle shift a 200r4 automatic, and a little work has been done on templates for radiator shrouding. But the heavy emphasis is on the Roadmaster for the next 2 months. In the meantime that process should result in the IRS for this car being brought close to the swap date for that part of the car.
Jim
Jim, Art Carr does a paddle shift for the 200R4 trans. I just read about Superformance delivering a Cobra Daytona to Carrol Shelby with it.
Thanks Jim. I looked into that and you are correct, so I sent an inquiry to Art Carr. So far everything I've found on paddle shifters uses an external actuator to move the stock shifter arm. I'll need to know what Art does to the valve body if this is what he's doing, the standard Grand National shift body modified for drag racing isn't going to do the job. But we'll see. Maybe someone has adapted internal solenoids. That'd be worth paying extra for.
Jim
No reply from Art, guess I'll have to call him.
We got back from Nashville with the Jag IRS for the roadster over the weekend. It's an '81 from an XJ6 and has 2.88 gears and posi, at least the wheels both turn the same way when I turn one so it looks like it does. Haven't verified with the tag yet. Everything appears to be in pretty good shape. Brake rotors are not worn noticeably, brake pads look good, worn down maybe 1/3 and e-brake pads don't look worn at all. A little grease/grime at the pivot points but not excessive. So I think I got good value and it should break down as expected. Looks like a unit from a low mileage car. I pressure washed off the worst of the grime and the rest isn't much. Have to get it broken down in the next day or two so it can be narrowed concurrently with the one for the Roadmaster. I'd say if you buy one of these take your time and find a good one, it'll pay off. I may not end up using the 2.88 gears but I'll probably start out with them and see how the car runs.
Jim
Sounds like a good rear for your car. I think you'll probably have to change the 2.88s. With a 25 to 26 inch rear tire you'd only be turning around 1800 rpm with a V8 type T5. With an automatic I don't know, don't have the overdrive ratio for that one. I had a 2.78 rear in the Midget with the V6 T5 and had to change it out to a lower ratio, was turning so low on the highway that it would bog on the hills a bit. Installed a 3.43 and it's much better, but around a 3.27 would be ideal. About the same for your combination I would think. I found this calculator on line that really helps me figure out what gears I need to use to match the tire and trans combination. http://www.f-body.org/gears/ It already has the GM and a lot of other transmissions preprogrammed which helps a lot.
Looks like 71@1800rpm's Bill. Could be a little slow, but with the 340 and the blower I just might have the torque to get away with it. A lot would depend on what I end up with for shift control. I now have a spare Megasquirt controller since I'm scrapping out the old I-H truck and I could probably use that to control shift solenoids and line pressure. That has me wondering what else I really need other than accumulators. There's lots of passages in a valve body but if it's under computer control much of that should be redundant or unnecessary I'd think. I've worked with hydraulics and with air logic, even done some hydraulic design. Maybe it's time to consider building a computer interface. The megasquirt could control the lock-up clutch too, should be able to treat it as another gear or as a splitter shift in 3rd and 4th (2nd maybe, not sure about that). The idea would be for automatic function at part throttle and paddles that give a ratchet-shift type function overriding the auto control. I haven't forgotten about the pseudo "clutch" function either, it's good to be able to disengage the driveline if you overcook it in the corners.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for the final damages on the heads, have to tear down and reassemble the short block, and build a blower intake. So it ain't happening today, and tomorrow don't look good either.
Jim
I've gotten some work done on the Jag IRS, got it mostly broken down but one of the hub splines is resisting my advances. Well I've been meaning to hook up a hydraulic unit to the press which will give it more umph and it looks like I'll have to do that before I go any further. In the meantime here are a couple of photos.
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The next one shows a stock Jag cage in the MG location.
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Not a terribly good fit.
Jim
I'm happy to be able to say I've made some more progress on the 340 build. Dale Spooner (Motion Machine in Danville, Va) finished up the head work sooner than I expected and shipped them to me. I'll say one thing for Dale, he does mighty good work. He pressure checked the castings, installed bronze sleeves in the valve guides, and machined the guides for Rover style seals.
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Plus as you can see doing a nice job of bead blasting.
I've been working on assembly. I removed the good valve springs from my old Buick 215 heads and will use them, I just have to decide on how much preload to give them. Seated pressure will be in the range of 80-100 lbs but which end of the range depends on installed height. I've lost the specs and CC no longer sells that cam they came with as an off the shelf item. So I did a little testing'
Installed height in the 215 heads was 1.625" and at that height the spring pressure is just over 80 lbs. At 1.600 it's around 100. I have to get some more shim washers to get uniform heights (within.016") but I can easily hit that range, the question being whether I should aim more for the high end or the low end. Less pressure means longer cam life, while more means more rev potential. The 215 was good for 7 grand without valve float but the valves were a little smaller and therefore lighter, however I don't expect the engine to ever go over 6500, though I do like a comfortable safety margin. I'll admit it's a little nit picky but as long as I'm doing it I might as well optimize it where I can.
I made this neat little valve spring micrometer out of an old motorcycle fork tube end and plug. It has 1.0mm threads so that's .040" per turn. I made an index mark at 1.600 and another at 1.625" and filed a flat in the first exposed thread for a reference. It works real slick. I don't really need the other graduations since 1/64 is probably the thinnest shim washer anyway and I can guestimate in between the marks pretty well. I'll post a photo of that tomorrow.
Jim
Here are a couple shots of my homemade valve spring micrometer.
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I decided to go ahead and put the valve springs in using the shims I had. It gives me a range of installed heights between 1.610 and 1.630 which puts me between 80 and 90 lbs on seated pressure. That should be just fine. The depth Dale cut the seal seats to, gives me a max lift of .540 which should be more than I'll ever need. I haven't checked the coil bind height yet but I think that'll be fine too. I plan to run a near stock cam in this engine, but if I do anything different from that it'll be a custom grind with more lift on the exhaust side and possibly less overlap. Anyway here's a shot of the heads with the valvecovers in place.
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I'm not real sure what the compression will be on this motor but it will be up there I think. More work to do on that. Since the heads have been decked I should cc them but the nominal chamber size is 54. The block has the 10-1/4:1 pistons but the pistons in my high compression 215 Buick block come closer to the deck and it had 37 cc heads, and a slightly smaller dish so it'll be hard to say until I take volume measurements. The increase in bore size makes a difference too. Then the block needs to be disassembled and checked, then reassembled using better fasteners. The ones the reman company used were a mix-n-match set and I'm not real big on mismatched parts, plus going with ARP might add some strength where it will do some good.
Jim
I cc'd the chamber and piston today, got 52cc for the chamber (it has been milled) and 22cc for the bore, so going online to a CR calculator it looks like my ratio with these pistons will be between 9-1/2 and 10:1 depending on what I use for head gaskets. Over on the V8Buick board they've got a group buy going for MLS (multi-layer steel) head gaskets for the 350 and I inquired if they could be used for this engine. Should handle the sealing tasks well enough, but there also may be a combo available that uses a sealed pressurized tube as the compression seal. More expensive of course but a permanent solution. With the blower it could be a good idea. I'll post when I have prices.
The heads and valve covers are painted, I used clear engine enamel which gives a sort of dark grey color to the beadblasted aluminum but it should stay cleaner. The rocker shafts from my first 215 Buick still look practically new and they're cleaned up and ready to install. Now the way is clear to begin teardown and reassembly of the 340. One of the big advantages of an iron block is that I needn't be too concerned about the threads in the block, particularly for the main caps and the head bolts. I will however need to be sure I have some thick heat treated washers for the head bolts, and studs might not be a bad idea. Well, I'll get to play with that some after the V8 meet.
Jim
Some new info from TA Performance:
"Once the 455 block is done we will start working on the rest of the projects that we have planned which include 350 heads and SP intake." (7-16-08)
"The order that I know of from talking with dad is 455 Block, Rover head (and possibly a new version of the V6 head based off of the Rover head), 350 head, 350 SP intake."
So it seems we'll be getting some new choices reasonably soon. The "Rover" head design is to be based on the successful TA Buick V6 head design (currently capable of 1700 hp in twin turbo racing trim), so it's interesting to see that they are considering doing a new V6 design at the same time. This is likely to be a VERY exceptional head. Expect to pay somewhere around say $2500 a set complete. Quite competitive with Wildcat. Plus it should be possible to put the "Rover" heads on the Buick 350 block.
I have the teardown table set up and am ready to disassemble the short block. Since this was a new reman everything should go smoothly and the biggest decisions I face are whether to try getting a set of forged pistons for it, what cam to use, and what fasteners. Like Carl, I really like a free winding engine and the temptation to go with forged pistons is huge. Getting them might be another matter entirely. Luckily for me I have no deadlines.
Jim
Running into a bit of trouble on the reman 340 short block, basically shoddy workmanship and mismatched/damaged parts. It's unfortunate, and promises to be expensive to fix. Well, at least I'm glad I didn't put it together like that. I'm back to looking at my options, one of which is to go with a seasoned 350 and start from scratch, fit it with the early cam using adapter bearings and use the 300 heads. At least (forged) pistons would be easier to find, the rods would match, the crank should be undamaged, the cam and crank bores should be straight, etc. It's a setback that I'm not at all happy about but in the long run it could be a benefit if I can show how to use a 350 Buick as the foundation for a BOP/R swap. Anybody got a good running old 350 Buick they want to sell cheap?
Jim
Turns out I have a spare 340 crank and 6 rods so using this block depends mostly on the straightness of the cam bores, though I will continue to look for a good running 350 Buick because... they are a little lighter, a little bigger, and a LOT more common. I would need adapter cam bearings to be able to use the early cam and will report cost and source for those when I have it. Today I pick up a 350 head gasket and will report back on how it matches up with the 300 head. I will be fabricating an intake but for others, the solution is to use an intake for one of the smaller engines and spacer plates. The exhaust will remain unchanged. Then in a year or so when TA brings out their new Rover style heads that would be a bolt-on swap.
So how about that guys? Big flow aluminum heads that fit a Buick 350 short block and use the RV8 style headers? An aluminum intake couldn't be that far behind.
Jim
Jim
Any thoughts of using those ported 300 heads on a Rover 4.6L block? With it's cross-bolted main line and a head stud kit, I would think it should handle a fair amount of boost. :-)
Bill
I think that would work just fine Bill. But the 340 represents a very inexpensive upgrade to 5.7L size. The weight penalty is offset by extra strength in the block as well, and no worries of pulled out threads.
Incidentally, it appears that use of a 350 block will probably require a custom grind cam since 340/300/215 pusrods are splayed to clear the two center ports and 350 pushrods are splayed to clear paired intakes between the front pair and the back pair. Only the cam maker would know for sure.
Jim
More changes. I've been very disappointed with the quality of the reman 340 and have decided not to use the crank, rods or pistons. There's just too much damage and mismatch to satisfy me. Instead I'll use a spare crank I have on hand and get it cleaned up .010 under by a reputable shop, and after a lot of investigation I've settled on a set of rods and pistons. It turns out that good used NASCAR rods can be had for anywhere from 100-400 bucks a set, but they tend to be either too short, too wide, or have too small or too large of a big end. The rods used in the 340 are a whopping 6.4" long. It looked like I'd have to cut down a set of SBC take outs, IF I could find them in a 6.4 or 6.5" length. That was before I talked to the Venolia rep. During that discussion it came to light that the Buick has a pin height considerably longer than what they like to see for custom pistons. At I think 1.85", there's plenty of room to get it down to the 1.2-1.3" height they more commonly see. And Venolia custom forged slugs can be had for $73 each. That may sound like a lot but it buys great peace of mind, its a couple hundred less than what I've been seeing for the set, and it'd be a shame to spoil the engine for want of a few hundred bucks. (To paraphrase Barrie Robinson)
Well, that really opened up the rod choices (not much) because Venolia had some leeway in where to put the pins so I began anew looking at rods, and I came across 3 sets of NEW H-beam forged and fully machined rods in a 7" length on ebay for $359 a set. The cake on the icing was that these rods used a *Buick* rod bearing insert. When I checked I learned that they use the bearings that fit the V6 Buick, meaning the exact same ones as used in the SBB! Further that meant a pin height of about 1.25, right in the recommended range. The only possible downside seems to be that the piston pins are a .750" diameter, and there is some question about Buick rods using a .094" offset, still not sure what that refers to. It was really more than I wanted to pay, but with those rods and pistons the bottom end would be darned near bullet proof and, well it'd be a shame to ruin the engine for want of a few hundred dollars... So I ordered them.
What are these mystery rods? Flathead Ford! Regularly available for around $500 a set and sometimes for less. So with that I've significantly increased the cost of my engine but I've also significantly increased both reliability and performance potential. Don't know why I'd need the performance, it's not like I drive it that hard or anything but I guess it'll be good insurance. Having an extra thousand or so on the redline could be fun too, I already know the valve springs can handle it.
So when the rods come in I'll check to make sure they won't hit the cam, enlarge the oil pickup holes in the block and then it'll be time to send it out for fine tuning. Probably the bore will go to about .050 over to square them up, deck the block, align hone the mains and check the cam bores for straightness, then order the pistons, have the crank ground and everything balanced. By the time that's done it'll no longer be such a "cheap upgrade" but it'll be no worse than a comparable chevy or ford of like displacement, especially when considering what it would cost to change over. Displacement should be 350 cu.in.
Jim
Quoteand there is some question about Buick rods using a .094" offset, still not sure what that refers to...
I think they have confused offset rods with wrist pin offset.
I believe Carl is correct.
The rods finally came in and they are some fine pieces.
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I fit one up to the crank to check the cam clearance and it looks like a little work is going to be needed on the end of the threaded boss for the upper rod capscrew.
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There should be just enough meat there to get clearance, but that is with a stock cam so I'll be limited on lift. Good thing I'm putting a blower on it. One other alteration that's needed is the squirt hole for lubricating the cam lobes. As you can see in this last shot there is none, but I'm thinking about a 1/16" hole drilled straight through at the parting line should do the trick.
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Jim
We Chevy strokers use a cam ground on a smaller base circle to get the rod clearance. Could you do that?
I have built 3 Chevy 383 using the small base circle cams from Comp Cams.
No problems so far.
Steve
That's a good idea Steve. It looks like I'll be doing that plus clearancing the rods. In fact I've already done most of the work that the rods needed. First, there was no oil spurt hole so I used a 1/16" zip wheel to cut the hole and a countersink to cut a pathway around the alignment dowell for the oil to find its way out.
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Then there were two cylinders where there was serious interference with the cam, that would be on #6 and 8 cylinders. There was no way that just a reduced base circle cam was going to do the trick. But by knocking the corner off the shoulder of the rod I got them to clear and the reduced base circle cam will give the needed clearance. All 8 rods were machined the same.
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Then the upper rod bolt had to get a large chamfer to clear so I made up a fixture and cut them on the lathe.
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Finally, the big end is .023" wider than the stock rod so I will need to machine them down just a bit. Then they will go to Dale for resizing and balancing. Dale clued me in that most of the Scat and Eagle rods he sees are improperly torqued when honed from the factory so these may need some rework. Rather do it now than later.
Out of curiosity we put them on the shipping scale to compare to the stock rods and the weight was the same. I would not have thought so but how are you going to argue with a digital scale? Of course on these rods the weight is concentrated at the big end whereas the stock rod has a very heavy beam and top end and much less beef at the bottom.
Jim
Well the parts are on their way to Dale Spooner. Carl was gracious enough to help in transporting them, even going so far as to ride home from Townsend with an iron 340 block sitting in his passenger seat and other parts packed in around it. I'd say he had the weight of a passenger about my size riding with him. Hope it didn't slow you down too much getting over the ridge Carl.
Dale will take it from Carl's house up to his shop, where the rods will be narrowed and honed, the crank ground, and the block cleaned up where needed, probably including align hone, deck and hone, and cam bearings installed. Then I'll order the pistons from Venolia and Dale will balance the works. Maybe by spring the engine will be together and I can concentrate on the tranny.
In the meantime I need to complete the Jag IRS and get it installed. Of course, first is the 215 swap so I at least can drive it.
Plenty to do.
Jim
So now, some more news on the blown up 215 Olds. The heads are off and there is only one place showing obvious damage.
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The edge of one piston is missing above the top ring. I would attribute this to gradual erosion of the piston crown rather than breakage or melting based on the slight but similar damage seen at the same spot the last time the heads were off. At that time it wasn't considered severe enough to replace the piston, but clearly under the stress of repeated excursions into coolant temps around 220* the erosion has accelerated to the failure point. No doubt a combination of weakening due to elevated temperatures and mechanical separation from piston and ring reversals. It seems probable that cylinder damage will be slight or non-existant and with minimal wear just breaking the glaze should be enough to put the block back into service. Why this effect was localized to this one cylinder I do not know, as there are no indications that it was running hotter than any of the others. Why did this result in the crankcase explosion? The only explanation that comes to mind is that this cylinder fouled the plug (causing the miss noted by Dan) at which point blowby began filling the crankcase and was ultimately lit off by a backfire through the induction system and back down through the crankcase inlet vent tube which had no flame arrestor and was connected to the blower inlet. Bit of a design deficiency there it appears. That will be corrected.
But the head gaskets do tell the tale. Looking closely at the locations indicated by arrows it can be seen that there was indeed leakage of combustion gasses in a number of places, and the light areas which indicate the areas of maximum clamping force, clearly display an unbalance, with less pressure in the areas between the cylinders and even less at the ends. There are signs of obvious leakage, but no damage to heads, block or gaskets. Discoloration out into the area surrounding the cylinder bore clearly indicates a leakage pattern well out onto the deck. This type of gasket would benefit greatly from the use of o-rings, but the new MLS type gasket should suffice. Also, spot-facing the deck or heads at the two center rows of bolt holes would move the clamping force outwards and might yield a noticeable benefit, but this would not help the ends where the problem is the worst.
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Overall, it would appear that with adequate sealing and the resultant proper control of coolant temperatures piston damage could be avoided. This, with 8.5:1 compression and 16+lbs of intercooled boost from the roots type blower is actually a very excellent result considering the pistons are cast low performance replacements. Much better than the gaping hole I was expecting to see.
Now if this experience can be extrapolated to the 340 build, there is reason to hope that the forged Venolia pistons will hold up much better. A little quick mental math might help. Assuming 100% volumetric efficiency, 16lbs of boost gives double the normal cylinder filling, therefore double the normal compression ratio of 8.5, or 17:1 in this case. Pretty darned good for a cast piston but if not for the restrictive intake and intercooling the motor would have been gone long ago. With the 340, at 8psi we have 1-1/2 times normal filling so working backwards, 17:1 divided by that gives about 11-1/3:1 compression. I'm shooting for10-1/2 to 11 and 6-8psi so I should be right in the zone, provided I scale up the intake system accordingly. I believe I have done that with the alloy 300 heads and stock valves on the 340 block. Cam selection is still up for grabs though. If I were to stay consistent I would use the stock cam, but if I can optimize that for economy I could end up with a potent package that gets very good mileage. I do not think that goal is inconsistent with good blower performance. Getting the redline up though may be another matter entirely.
What makes it difficult is that so far as I know there is nobody else pursuing this approach to blower use. It is unconventional and plays by different rules. It seeks to achieve goals outside the normal high performance envelope in that while I am seeking maximum performance under the curve, I am also seeking maximum economy just as aggressively and 8:1 compression just can't provide those results, no matter how good your blower is. So far the results have been encouraging, but I really need to find an open minded cam grinder to get the most from the combination.
Jim
Certainly not as bad as I expected.
Yeah, the cylinder looks good too. Probably could have kept on going if that lifter valley cover hadn't blown wide open.
Jim
Just for the record, I NEVER drove this car. ;)
Yeah, but I bet you WISH you did, and we'll fix that once I get it running again. Anyway the experimental nature of it was the main reason few people drove it and also why I didn't often offer. But as you'll recall I drove it pretty hard myself and I think it's safe to say that whatever damage it accumulated was at my hands. At this point the driveline is the remaining weak area and that is being resolved, but I'd also like to stiffen up the bracing on the wing, improve the front suspension, and add a removable rollbar. I feel very confident that I can eliminate the weaknesses of the engine this time around, as I'm no longer looking for as much power as I can squeeze out of it. I'll have to have good tires on it first of course. It can be a handful if you're not ready for it. At one time it developed a knack for dancing on the back tires if I put 'er down at freeway speeds and to say the least that was exciting. I'm not saying the front wheels were off the ground or anything like that, but it would alternate traction from one side to the other and "dance" back and forth very aggressively. A wrong reaction there could have been very very bad. Of course adding as much as 30% more power and 50% more torque could bring that back so I'll do some testing first.
I've not spent much money on the car at all. $100 transmissions, $1000 engines, discarded axles, heck I only paid $1100 for the car itself. It's been very rare that I've spent over a thousand on anything, and over the length of my ownership I'm quite confident my average cost has been well under a thousand a year. I don't think that's too bad for what I've accomplished with it. But then I've just never had a real big budget to work with. Even the paint was a carport home job costing about $700.
Dan calls it a "Monster Ego Trip" and he's right. People are constantly waving, pulling up at lights and yaking, making circles in the air, and stuff like that. Even pulling it creates excitement. But it's been that way for so long I've gotten used to it and it doesn't feel out of the ordinary at all unless it sits parked for awhile. Then I start to get withdrawal symptoms and work resumes a feverish pace to get it back on the road. Guess I'm hooked.
Jim
Carl, you missed it. Next time he offers, take it for a cruise! It really is a trip!
I only mentioned it cause I didn't want anyone to think I blew it up. :)
Now why would anyone think that? Been blowing up cars Carl? :-) Is there something you've not been telling us? :-) Actually I suspect Dan felt like the whole world was conspiring against him at that point. His car had been rejecting the transplant all weekend stretched out to 5 days and then this? At least it must be comforting to know that none of it was his fault.
The teardown continues and the engine may come out today. Down to the last 5 bolts. I made a pretty cool rig to hold the tranny in place, try to take a photo of it later. You can tap the top two holes of the bellhousing for 1/2"-13 and use a couple of short bolts, short length of chain, 2x4 and some all-thread and have an adjustable jig that will hold the tranny up while the engine is removed and reinstalled. This eliminates the hassle of dealing with the shifter and driveshaft.
I've also done some work on the IRS. Seems the angle wasn't quite right so I cut and re-welded the rear hanger arms to change the angle. It'll adjust the pinion from about -1* to 10* now and my driveline is at 3* so that's all good and there's room for mount compliance. I've also done some more layout on the forward brace. These changes will be incorporated into the Roadmaster also when it's IRS is transferred to the new body.
Jim
Been getting a little work done on the IRS, I'll try to get photos tomorrow. The cross brace is made (both of them) and I've rough turned the half-shafts. The hollowbar remnant from what we used for the Roadmaster is just a bit short so I'm going to get another piece, and I've ordered a length of 19mm drill rod to see if it's the right diameter for the bolts. 5/8" turned out to be .002" too big. I could polish it down but that's a lot of work and I'd rather just buy the right size. I've cut out blanks for the rear and center tie bars from 1/2" aluminum plate and the front one will be part of the isolator mount to the crossbar. I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to do that part yet but it'll come to me.
The setup in this car needs to be just as solid as the one in the Roadmaster. Odd as it might sound, I'll be seeing torque and horsepower figures in about the same range, possibly even higher. Consider for a moment that the stock numbers for the 340 were 260 hp (somewhat mundane) and 365 ft/lbs (exceptional). How they came up with those numbers I have no idea, considering that both tq and hp match at 5250 rpm or near thereabouts. The tq curve must be dropping like a rock at that point. But we've altered the system. The build will allow a higher redline and the blower will support it. Equal length headers will boost the max output. Even with a stock cam we're looking at an additional 1/2 atmosphere of pressure pushing past the valves.
Now there are a lot of variables to take into consideration but just allowing for one, the extra intake pressure, we could reasonably anticipate a roughly 50% increase in output. That alone puts the horsepower at 390, a mere 10 hp short of the mighty 455. Do the same with the torque and we're at 547.5 ft/lbs or almost 10% higher than the 455's 500. Considering that I've got bigger rear tires I think y'all can see the reasons why I think the IRS needs to be just as strong.
But on the other hand, the "Taxable horsepower" of the 340 was 45 hp. That plus 50% is 67.5 horsepower. THAT's the figure I think I'll use whenever anybody asks. ;-)
Jim
Back to the IRS. It turns out that the half shafts off this unit cleaned up at 1-1/4" diameter well enough to be able to use that size tubing, where the ones for the Roadmaster were at 1-3/16". I also have on hand a 19" piece of left over hollowbar stock with a 1.230 bore and 3/8" wall. That's heavier than I need but otherwise suitable, so I think I'll use that to weld up the half-shafts and then possibly turn 1/4" off the OD of the tube if I think it feels too heavy. Certainly that's quite a bit beefier than needed. It's a little more work but easier than going out and finding more tubing.
Dale has the 340 engine parts and I just ordered a set of main studs to be sent to him so he can get started with the machine work. He'll probably have to mill the bolt holes in the center cap slightly to allow proper alignment of the thrust surfaces, but the studs should give more strength in that area.
When ordering the studs I talked to Mike at TA and he said they are on track with the new Rover style heads so I'm guessing we'll be seeing something there next year. They've about finished up the aluminum block for the BBB and those heads are next in line after that. They have not yet fully machined any of the blocks but I know they have a batch that have been cast and cleaned so it won't be long. The drag guys are champing at the bit. I couldn't get a weight figure from him because the machine work wasn't done but as soon as I can find out I'll pass it on. I can't imagine it'll be any heavier than my 340 but a lot might depend on what crank is used. I also suggested that with manifold spacer plates these new heads could be used with the 340 and 350, but Mike feels he can get better flow from a dedicated head for the 350 so I don't know how closely he will look at applications for the larger SBB's. The 340 is something of a red-headed step child. Time will tell, but at least I've made the suggestion.
Jim
Progress continues on the 340 block. Dale found some inconsistencies with the mains, as I had as well. There was a sideways shift in the center mains of maybe a couple thou and the rear cap was a good .005" too big. It had to have come from a different block. But, to his credit, Dale was able to bring it in and get the mains to clean up with just a very narrow band on one of the mains by the parting line that didn't clean. I can live with that. The decks were off a bit and the bores weren't perpendicular to the crank but with .020" to cut he was just able to clean those up as well. That's the good news.
The cylinder walls are a little thin in a couple of spots. There was some core shift with the worst spot being about .130" thick on the thrust side of one cylinder. There's another place .110 thick but it isn't a thrust surface and shouldn't be a problem. I'd be a whole lot happier with a more or less uniform 3/16" wall but I don't have another 340 block to check. V8Buick guys suggested pouring in an inch of devcon but I'm concerned it may reduce cooling and may not stay put long term. So I think we're going to go without it. As Dale says, I'll be the first one to know if it isn't strong enough.
Anyway I should get the pistons ordered tomorrow, and maybe the head studs and MLS gaskets as well as some seals and other minor stuff. Then we wait.
In the meantime, today I cut and squared up the tubes for the axles. I need to finish turn the Jag half shafts to fit the ID and then I can cut and weld. Next step after that is to disassemble the jag hubs, turn the pilots to fit the holes in the vette wheels, put them back together and begin final assembly of the IRS. At that point I'll have to polish down the 5/8" drill rods to match the jag pivot shafts.
Those pivot rods have given me quite a ride. I began by ordering a length of 4140 heat treated, only to find the process had made the stock oval. It was not available in TGP (turned ground and polished). So I bought 2 lengths of 5/8" drill rod, which turned out to be .002" oversize and for 4 shafts (2 for this car and 2 for the MGB Roadmaster) that's quite a bit of polishing. So then in an apparent mental fog I somehow thought I was using 3/4" material and with 19mm being .002" smaller I ordered some of that. Special order of course and I couldn't send it back. Which left me ordering another 2 pieces of 5/8" drill rod. Some days...
So I have a fair amount of polishing to do, and then things will start to go together. One last piece of the puzzle is what sort of isolation pivot I will use for the forward end of the pivot rods. They have to allow the LCA's to rotate, be capable of vertical adjustment for the pinion angle changes, have room for a nut to go on the front of the rod, and have a cushion of some sort. I may just set the pinion angle at 3 degrees on this one (which is what both my engine and the MGB Roadmaster's engine set at) and forget the vertical adjustment. But I have a little time to think about it, I'm sure the answer will come to me.
Jim
Got the half shafts finished and a coat of paint on them today, I'll try to get some photos tomorrow. That was something of a job. I did end up turning 1/4" off the diameter of the tubes. It will make an interesting visual reference to see the completed pieces along with a chunk of the 2" hollowbar and some of the 1-1/2" that we used for the MGB Roadmaster. There is no doubt these axles will be stronger, but it's probably serious overkill. It will be interesting to see if we are able to twist one of the smaller ones used in the GT. I'll mark a straight line down each tube we can use for reference and then we can check it after some hard launches. If we do manage to twist one we can still probably turn it down to 1-1/4" on the ends and weld in some of the 2" hollowbar, if I can find enough tubing. Most of the scrap pieces I have have got holes and flats in inconvenient spots.
Anyway I also broke down the Jag uprights and degreased them. One bearing at least will need replaced and I haven't disassembled the LCA pivots yet. But at least I can go ahead and machine the hubs. Not bad progress, if I do say so myself.
Jim
The gears have been ordered, a set of good used 3.54's from ebay for $65 including shipping. So the next step is to finish the cleanup of the uprights by breaking down the pivot bearings and then tear down the differential. I've set up Dana diffs several times so this should be fairly easy, especially since the posi is already there. I found enough damage in the upright spindle bearings to require complete bearing replacement. Very likely the pivots will be similar. Apparently water got in on one side.
Also the piston order has been confirmed. By the time everything is added up we were at $1100 and change for pistons, rings, floating pins, pin oilers and double spiral locks. But that's still quite competitive with the import manufacturers and I'm happy to be supporting a domestic company with a rich racing history. They seem like good folks at Venolia, and treated me quite well.
Jim
Here is the photo I promised:
MVC-842S.JPG
The long tube is 1-1/2" diameter, the short one is 2" and the half-shafts are 1-3/4".
Below are a couple of different front covers.
First, a 215 cover with a 300 water pump, as used on my 215 blower motor:
MVC-844S.JPG
Then a bare 300 or 340 cover:
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Not much difference there except for some of the accessory bosses, but notice that the timing pointers are located on opposite sides. The 215 cover will work just fine on the 340, and a one piece neoprene seal will fit both covers. A two piece neoprene seal is a drop in fit for the rear main seal as well.
The oil pump extension housing is a straight shot to the oil filter. We need another of these for the MGB Roadmaster project if anyone has a spare.
I have been working on the Jag differential setup. The standard generic Dana 44 ring and pinion looks like it will fit just fine. The ring used 3/8 bolts instead of the 7/16" bolts used by Jag so bushings are used to take up the difference, a standard proceedure. The Jag uses a larger inner pinion bearing than most D44 housings, the generic D44 pinion yoke is used which has a fine spline which also eliminates the troublesome 4 bolt flange, and the standard D44 pinion seal is used. I haven't installed the seal yet but it looks like it should fit.
The 2.88 pinion was marked +5 and the replacement 3.54 one +3. I had .030" in shims behind the large pinion race so replacing it with .028" in shims should put the pinion right where it needs to be. A contact pattern check later will verify that and any need to change it. Next step will be to select the right shims for pinion preload, and then the carrier can be installed and checked for backlash.
The thing about setting up a dana diff is that you have to assume it will be coming back apart a dozen times before it is set up right. It's a labor intensive job but there a few things that can be done to help. Use a non-locking nut on the pinion until final check. Use setup bearings for the carrier to set backlash and preload and only install the bearings that will be used on the final assembly. These setup bearings are good used bearings that have had the bores opened up with a flapper wheel so they are a slip fit. Then it's basically trial and error until the preloads, backlash and contact pattern are all correct. At that point the good bearings are installed as well as the pinion locknut and everything gets locktite. I hope to reach that point next week sometime, then I can begin assembling the suspension. The first decision there will be whether to use the stock timken bearings on the lower pivots of the uprights or to use the delrin bushings like we did in the GT. I'm leaning towards the timkens just so we can look for any differences in the way the suspensions react.
Jim
News from Venolia, the longest 3/4" piston pins available were a bit short to use spiral-locks so we're going with teflon buttons for pin retainers. The pistons should hopefully ship this week.
Work continues on the differential. Think I was kidding about a d44 having to come back apart a dozen times? I'm up to about 9 just setting up the pinion. The Jag large bearing is used but for the small bearing something a little more special is required, as the generic pinion shaft is 1/16" smaller and the generic d44 small bearing is too large at the outer race.
The correct bearing is Timken # 02474 (bearing) and 02420 (cup). You need these numbers if you want to put a u-bolt type yoke on a Jag diff with generic d44 gears.
There are a few tools that are just about indispensable for this job
MVC-845S.JPG
First, a stationary pinion flange wrench (channel iron) is extremely helpful
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Next a pulley puller to remove the flange
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And finally, a dial indicator of some sort. It is possible to get the job done without one of these, but it does remove some of the uncertainty.
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Next comes installation of the pinion seal and test fitting of the carrier, checking backlash, and if it is within limits, checking the contact pattern. It'd really be nice to get lucky on the backlash but it's unlikely, so removal of the side bearings is almost certain to follow.
Jim
There's been a bit of a setback. Turns out the vendor I bought my gears from sold me reverse cut gears without listing them as such. How that will be resolved is yet to be seen, but of course the worst of it is the time invested to get another set of gears and set them up. To say the least I'm a little unhappy about that. So that will slow progress a bit.
In the meantime I've ordered seals and bearings for the uprights. I am going to convert the spindles and cross shafts to a gear oil bath instead of grease pack. I think it will be more effective in keeping the bearings lubricated and easier to service. I've ordered nitrile seals to replace the felt and leather ones and will install flip caps for the filler holes assuming that I can find them, and then use synthetic gear grease. The needle bearings on the inside end of the LCA's will remain grease packed since there is no cavity to be used as an oil reservoir. An o-ring will be needed between the seal inner journal and the shaft but a thin one should nest in the corner radius of the journal and the bearing race. On the spindle I'll use an o-ring if I can, or a sealant on the spline if not.
I might get a chance to begin reassembling the half-shafts today as well.
Jim
Jim, for all types of oil cups and filler adaptors check McMaster Carr. Page 2138 in their catalog. http://www.mcmaster.com/
Thanks Bill, I never even thought of that. I checked sizes, and they have a push-in style that will fit the hub fill opening so I ordered some. I just finished installing the new spindle bearing races and seals and everything looks good at this point but the new nitrile seals were a very tight fit. Jag sized the bore for a 3.00" seal but the available common sizes are for a 3" bore. Since normal seal fit is .004-.005" interference these had more like .008-.010". Fit tolerance is +.003 to -.002" so in the best case we were .002" beyond the tolerance, and that's about what it was like to fit them in too. You wouldn't get them in with a hammer and a drift punch.
I'll tell you what guys, we should be real grateful to Dan for buying all those IRS parts for the Roadmaster. I've spent upwards of $500 just on bearings and seals and that's with re-using the old differential bearings. By the time you figure in new brake rotors and pads and add it to whatever he had to pay for the IRS that was about a thousand bucks he donated to the cause, and it's money we didn't have to spend.
I got lucky on mine because the brakes are good. So anyway, the half-shafts are assembled and once I turn the hubs they can be joined to the uprights and I can concentrate on the LCA's. Maybe by then I'll have another set of gears.
Jim
Here's the modification to the uprights. The flip caps from McMaster-Carr were a perfect fit in the grease fill hole. I bought 1/8" NPT threaded flip caps for the pivot shaft and drilled and tapped fill and drain holes. First I enlarged the existing small vent hole to use for filling and put the same size plug for a drain where the grease fitting had been on the bottom. I also drilled and tapped a drain hole in the spindle housing.
MVC-849S.JPG
This allows both cavities to be filled with gear oil or another lubricant, I plan to use Mobil 1, and allows for periodic oil changes without a teardown. I think this will do a much better job of keeping the bearings lubricated and free from moisture than the old system and if I can find the right material to glue into the caps will probably keep the area cleaner as well.
Jim
The second new gearset came in, this is a new set of OEM gears that was used by Richmond Gear to set up their production and inspection so I got them at a good discount. Hundred bucks for new gears, and the vendor who sold me the reverse cut ones refunded my payment and asked me to please not send the gears back. Can't ask for better than that. I got lucky in that the pinion was a +3 which was the same as the pinion in the last set (the reverse cut Ford gears). That meant installing the pinion was just a matter of getting the preload set and that was within .003". I removed one shim and was at 16 inch pounds of torque with the seal installed. Feels just a smidgen heavy to me when I turn it by hand but I think it'll be OK. The spec is 10-20 for new bearings IIRC and I have one new bearing.
The carrier went in and meshed OK but the backlash is excessive. At around .100 just eyeballing it this indicates that there is indeed a carrier break between 3.08 gears and 2.88 ones. This is apparently a 2 series carrier and I need to find a 3 series. New cases can be had for about $230 so that is my target to try to beat. Finding a used 3 series Powerlok case shouldn't be that hard you would think, but the only thing on ebay were complete assemblies selling for about as much as new. This might slow me down for awhile. Once I've gotten the bill from Dale for the engine work I doubt I'll be able to afford more parts until spring. That could slow down development of the forward pivot, which the MGB-Roadmaster also needs, so if anyone has one laying around that they want to get rid of... I can probably work out a trade of some sort. In the meantime there are hubs to turn down and pivot rods to polish.
Speaking of Dale, I told him to go ahead and O-ring the deck. I ran across my copper head gaskets for the 215 the other day which got me thinking about the roughly $300 the MLS head gaskets were going to cost me. Well at about a "C" note to o-ring that's $200 I don't have to spend. I just have to enlarge the bore holes from 3.570 to 3.9 or so. Looking around the shop I found some pieces to make a punch and die set out of so I can do that in the hydraulic press. Every dollar counts.
Jim
More good news. One of my old friends in the I-H community has a 3 series PowerLok posi sitting on the shelf and ready to go. He sort of owes me a favor since I gave him an intake modified for port injectors with a fuel rail, so in exchange for the posi I found him an open carrier and set of gears he was looking for. I don't know if that qualifies for collecting on the favor or not, but I don't guess it really matters since we're both getting something we want. Merry Xmas! The important thing for me is that I'll soon be able to resume work setting up the differential.
All the machine work on the engine has been finished with the exception of installing the cam bearings. For whatever reason the rear cam bearing bore is undersize. I don't know how that happens, but Dale has the tools to fix it and that's the important thing. Apparently there is some warpage through the cam bearing area that will have to be cleaned up. So, I'm crossing my fingers hoping that's the last item and nothing else happens to delay transportation. Otherwise I just might be picking up the engine at the summer V8 meet. We knew about the problem with the cam bearings but unintentionally put that off while doing other things. I guess there's a normal sequence that you generally follow when preparing a block, and I should have made a point of dealing with that issue first but I didn't, so now we're dealing with it last.
Anyway, I'm still in the process of getting used to the cold, figuring out how much propane it is going to take to use the new furnace in the shop and such, and hoping for another warm spell. I've been pretty surprised that so far as I can tell it hasn't dropped below 38* in the shop yet and I'm trying to calibrate the thermostat to keep it above 32. With those old style mechanical thermostats you can rotate the housing off level so that instead of 55 being the lowest setting it'll go on down. How much rotation it takes to hit 32 is the real question. It looks a little strange but it works. Maybe I should try to get one of the round ones if I get a chance.
There's a naturally occurring sequence for setting up this rear end too, and rather than carry the dial indicator back across the shop to dial in the hubs on the lathe I've done other tasks while waiting on a posi. That wait will soon be over and once the lathe is freed up I will move on to polishing the pivot rods. I don't know how much longer I can put that task off, undoubtedly once started it'll go fairly quick and be easier than the anticipation. But it's kinda like drywalling the basement. One of those tasks that has to be done but about which I cannot seem to find one solitary thing to like. Ah well that one I can put off awhile longer. The basement, that's another matter.
Jim
And now, we begin to see some of the things that tend to make a swap such as this one difficult. There was a breakdown in communication apparently between my buddy Scott and myself, and instead of there being a 3series Power-Lok diff in the box when it came, I found a Trac-Lok. While your initial reaction might be, "Hey that's good, it's a great posi." mine was a bit more subdued. Within a day or two I knew there was good reason for that too, but two positive things came of it, and I was able to confirm that, yes indeed, there is a split between a series 2 and a series 3 case, somewhere above a 2.88 Jag gearset. Incidentally, for those curious to know, the Jag diff is called a Salisbury, apparently for the area of England in which they are made, and they are manufactured by the Dana/Spicer corp, on the pattern of the Dana 44 but with the above noted variations. It appears that they do use the same side bearings.
The Trac-Loc would bolt right in and only has 6000 miles on it, but it has 30 or 31 spline side gears so it will not mate up to the Jag stub shafts. I could buy the correct side gears, but I could also sell both units I now have and buy what I want, and at this point that would be a True-trac. It looks like there may be another flurry of ebay activity coming up as I attempt to generate funds for the rest of this upgrade and tidy up the place at the same time. It looks like there will be Olds and Buick engine parts as well as other driveline pieces, and even a pair of T-50's and a bellhousing and flywheel. But right now I'm battling the winter doldrums so it may take me awhile.
The good news is that Steve will be here Thursday, bringing the 340 with him. I'll need to get the Olds off the engine stand to make room for that one, but on the plus side there will be a nice box to ship a short block in. (I think) Then that engine can go together slowly and with plenty of photos for this thread.
I expect Steve and I will be able to feed off each other's enthusiasm for the MGB Roadmaster project and move things along there as usual and since the two projects are entertwined to some degree it should help some here as well, at least concerning the IRS. Anything to get that moving again would be a benefit as this diff business has stalled it out pretty effectively. The other good thing is that there should be an invoice packed in with the parts so although I'll have a bill to pay at least I'll know how large it is, and whether or not my with-holdings in anticipation of it have been sufficient. It could go either way, so it'll be good to know, regardless.
One of the entertwinements is the IRS crossmember. I corrected the angle and trimmed the corners of the mount for the one to go in my roadster, but now in all likelihood we'll put that one in the Roadmaster and I'll modify the other one in the same manner. That will leave the attachment points for the coil-overs to sort out. I've run into an unexpected complication there in that if the pin for the upper mount is square with the crossmember beam, it will not be square with the body of the shock, and since the design of the crossmember allows 6* of angular movement that complicates the matter a little. It shouldn't be a problem with heim joints for the attachment points but may limit other choices. We'll get it all sorted out eventually, but it's not going to be today. Tomorrow isn't looking real great for that either. But the important thing is to keep on doing the small tasks so eventually it does get done. Hard as that may be some times, it's the surest way to the finished project.
Jim
Things are looking up. I have some photos of the engine parts for you and everything looks real nice. I have to hand it to Dale, (Motion Machine in Danville, VA) he does excellent work. Extremely good at communication as well and a real pleasure to work with.
MVC-881S.JPG
MVC-887S.JPG
MVC-883S.JPG
MVC-886S.JPG
As you can see the reciprocating assembly is pretty light so with the long rods this engine should like to wind up. I may have to consider an aftermarket torque converter to keep the rotating weight down. No need to worry about that for awhile yet though. The piston crowns are also reasonably thick for blower use. These are Venolia pieces. Apparently I took 6 grams off the rods in relieving them for cam clearance. Dale said they were within 2 tenths right out of the box, a rarity in his opinion. Seems my whittling didn't throw off the balance much at all. So if you want to build this motor it might be a good idea to use the same supplier for the rods, especially since it was a good price. Looks like I might need to run out and buy a few more cans of brake cleaner and get started.
Jim
More good news! I've ordered the head studs, crank seals, oil pump pick-up and wear plate, and if they managed to ship them Friday before shutting down for the holidays I may be able to begin assembly in a few days. The engine bore brushes are laid out in preparation and I'm all set to go.
Meanwhile, the ebay Power-Lok came in, was disassembled and cleaned. The clutches were trashed (one bevel washer broken) but the gears and case are undamaged so the plan is to just use the case with the internals from the Jag unit. However, torque testing showed the Jag unit could only produce 80 ft/lbs of torque between axle shaft and case and the one recommended spec I've seen for that was 140 ft/lbs. So I'll be looking at what I can do to bump that up. One recommendation was to reverse the bevel washer. I'm not sure how that would help though. Another thing is that the Jag has a rather odd stack of the clutches, which it seems could be easily improved on, where the Ford unit had a very straightforward alternating stack.. I may have to buy more clutches. Another curious difference was the way the side gears are made. On the Jag the cone the gear sits in has a spline that matches the inner clutch teeth, but the Ford does it by essentially cutting the gear hub off short, in essence splining the cup to the axle shaft instead of to the gear. It doesn't look as strong to me, but since I'm going to use the Jag internals it really doesn't matter, unless I run into space problems with the clutches.
It's supposed to get up to 50 in the next couple of days so I'll probably get a chance to see what I can do with the parts and maybe post some photos. The only shot I have right now is of the bad clutches in the ford unit but I can post them, as a shot of what you get if the axle can only generate maybe 10-20 ft/lbs of torque.
Jim
posiclutches.jpg
I started assembly today after having done a good cleanup yesterday, and I have a couple of photos:
MVC-014S.JPG
MVC-015S.JPG
This engine is a first for me in several ways. First iron block SBB, first o-ringed deck, first engine equipped with studs on mains and heads, custom forged pistons and aftermarket rods, and in a few lesser ways as well. But if I've learned anything by this point, it's that attention to the smallest details can make or break an engine build. With that in mind I'm going to do my best to not overlook anything, so I'm taking my time with it and giving a lot of thought to each step.
I'd considered securing the studs into the block with loctite. On reflection I realized this would make removal of the main caps pretty difficult and so I went with the moly lube instead and installed the studs in accordance with the ARP instructions. They only addressed lubrication of the threads but if you think about it the washers need to be lubricated too for the most consistent results. Checking of the bearings and journals showed that Dale had pretty well nailed the .002" main clearance we had decided on, so the bearing shells were coated with assembly lube and the crank installed. The center main cap lines up well if it is tapped to the rear before final torquing, and the rear seal halves lined up well without any other work. The crank rotates easily and has .004" of endplay, which should be OK. I used TA's two piece neoprene rear main seal, which requires the seal groove in the block and cap to be dimpled with a center punch for spin resistance. The seal is inserted with about 1/4" protruding out one side so that the split is not at the cap split and a sealant (Right Stuff) helps seal it and anchor it in place. Not a lot is needed.
One place a lot of people mess up is by not sealing the cap split. There are a pair of side seals to seal the cap to the block, but the split line can be a source of leakage if some sealant is not smeared between the end of the seal and the side seal.
That pretty well concludes installation of the crank, of course cleanliness is everything. Next will be preparation and install of the pistons and rods, at which point I can button up the bottom end.
Jim
If the first rule of engine building is clean, clean, clean, then Blackwood's Corollary is that "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing twice." Anyone, no matter how many times they've built engines can make a mistake or overlook something. I somehow overlooked cleaning out the oil holes in the crank, so I got to spend some quality time taking it back out and doing it over. On the plus side though, it gave me a real good chance to see just how well my sealing job on the rear main cap went, and I'm very satisfied that all the mating surfaces were properly sealed. This is an area where many people have trouble with oil leaks, but as long as the rear seal does it's job I think I'll have no worries there. I did something a little different, I rubbed a thin layer of moly lube into the seal journal on the crank. It has the diagonal scores which are supposed to help sling oil away from the rope seal but I don't think it will hurt a bit for those grooves to be filled with the moly. I also noted this time that as the steel pins are driven down alongside the side seals the 'right stuff' sealant squishes out the ends of the chamfer at the corner of the cap. If this gap is not filled it creates a direct route to the outside of the block. Many people use RTV here, but RTV is not resistant to oil and will soften over time. I would not, under any circumstances use it inside an engine.
So philosophically I feel it is best to approach any task on a car as if it is going to be done in it's entirety two times instead of one. This helps to avoid frustration when it has to come back apart, and it also overcomes the natural tendency to rush or cut corners. If you already assume it'll have to be done twice, then you know you have enough time to be real particular about it the first time. I'd rather do it once, and most of the time that works. But I'm not going to approach it that way. I've found "Blackwood's Corollary to make for a much more satisfying experience. But of course it raises the question, "If it isn't worth doing twice is it worth doing at all?" All I can say about that is, Maybe.
Jim
QuoteI somehow overlooked cleaning out the oil holes in the crank, so I got to spend some quality time taking it back out and doing it over.
The ol' woke up in the morning and said, "Crap! I knew I forgot something!" :)
Jim,
Happy new year to you all, I have been dropping in to watch progress on your 340 build as well as the BADASS project.
That 340 is going to be a great engine, what sort of power and torque do you think it will make?
Wish I had access to someone like Dale over here, any of our so called specialists want fortunes to do work, aboy double what you guys have to pay for parts and labour.
My new 4.35 engine with modified big valve Buick 300 heads, Chevy rods Keith Black pistons and Crower 50232 cam, although built a few months has only recently been installed, and we are hoping to fire it up this coming Saturday, so a little nervous as can be expected with the prospect of having to get the rings bedded in asap and the cam broken in to spec, theres always a bit of conflict with that as you need to get the engine under load asap to avoid glazing the bores,
I have had a few health issues over the last few month which led to the delay but hoping that getting the GT back on the road will bring a smile (or stupid grin) back to my face.
I regularly use a forum in the UK which is great for Rover Buick and Chevy V8 tech issues,
http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/index.php?sid=df7988faa6ab21594a588ef5850a8f17
We are having a forum meet at Santa Pod the leading UK drag strip in July this year and I intend running my car to see what it will do!
One of our guys has aan original MGBV8 but now fitted with a near standard Rover 4.6 engine and with a 150 shot of nitrous runs consistent 11.5 second quaters on slicks which is pretty amazing, wouldn't think I will do much better than around 13.5 but it should be a great day out.
Another of our guys is currently building a Buick 455 with alloy heads which is going into a Range Rover which should be a fairly rapid beast, even with the weight of the Range Rover, he is doing some chassis strengthening!
Anyway as I said have a great new year and good progress with youw and the BADASS car, I will be watching for updated as usual and look forward to the days you have the BADASS up and running.
Regards,
Kevin Jackson.
You pretty well nailed it Carl, though the corollary takes most of the sting out.
Thanks for the good wishes Kevin, I sure appreciate the support. Here's hoping everything goes smoothly with your new engine. That should be an excellent combination.
It's always a good idea if possible to change one thing and see the result before changing more. I've gotten pretty far from that this time around and it's likely the car will have a rather different character when it goes back together. If I've done my job well enough though the results should be something I'm happy with. But you know what? I've never driven an MGB with IRS, or even ridden in one. I have driven an MGB with an automatic transmission (Steve's) but didn't drive it hard. The power level will be higher than the last engine but the torque band will be broader as well and off-idle should be very good, so hopefully it will all work out.
I've been giving a little thought to using a Gilmer type blower drive on this engine because the rubber dust on the hood indicated that the 6 rib serpentine belt was slipping a little on the other engine. There are several different tooth profiles being used, some of which are very good and reasonably quiet. Of course I could go to a 7 rib belt right away if I can find one, or an 8 rib if I change the lower pulley and can find the right belt. I'll have to make a decision about whether to use the drive nose off the old blower. There may be some chance that I could sell the complete blower package from the intake up, including the front brace, intercooler, and pulleys and if so no doubt I could get more out of it that way, but maybe I should just clean it up and put it on the coffee table instead. (he he he! Wonder if Edith would go along with that?) Anyone want a blower?
Today is National Hangover Day and it's under 20 outside. So although I'm not hung over I'm in no rush to get moving either. I will try to get out to the lab and do something but not for awhile yet. Pistons and rods are next and I need a reasonable facsimile of an old round oil can to set the piston/rod assembly in oil before installing them. Seems half my days are spent looking for things. I'm also sort of tempted to make tapered sleeve to use as a ring compressor. I've never had one of those and I'd like to try it. If I can find something to make one out of that is. Oh well, one step at a time...
Jim
Now, Curtis, I'm sure you know that @#$%& is derived from that ol' British plumbing company.
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Just to make absolutely certain I get the pistons in right, I did a little studying on piston pin offset. Eventually I found this drawing which makes it all quite clear (for non-race applications).
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This is the standard offset direction with the pin moved towards the major thrust face of the cylinder, which is the side that the piston pushes against on the power stroke. (Race engines often use zero or sometimes negative offset.) For standard clockwise rotation this means the short side of the piston goes to the left. I have .040" of offset in my forged Venolia pistons, a small enough amount that they could be installed backwards and might not make much noise when cold, and might not cause much greater wear. But as I have one cylinder wall that is .150" thick on the thrust side it would probably be best to install them conventionally, which will help reduce thrust loading.
Jim
Busy day today but I did get some work done. I have the pistons on the rods. Not like that took much, being floating pins and teflon buttons, but it's one more step. Of course, the rods for the odd cylinders were 180* out from the rods for the even cylinders. Amazingly enough, sometimes even very experienced professional engine builders have been known to get this wrong. Guess we're all subject to brain farts every now and then. So I got out the rings and the first bit of paperwork I see says, "File fit..." and I just shoved it in my pocket and moved on. Guess I'll test fit them tomorrow and see what I've got.
While out on errands Matthew and I stopped and picked up some Mobil-1 gear grease with LS additive already in it, so I went ahead and fitted up the posi with the plates in what I felt would be the strongest configuration. Once bolted up that turned out to be good for about 160 ft/lbs of torque after breakaway, which apparently should be plenty, especially for a light car like the MGB. But I'm going to go ahead and try it that way and hope that with the big tires it will all work out. Worst case, the whole unit should drop out with a half dozen bolts if I have to restack for less torque. Sorry I don't have photos, the battery died on my camera just as I was taking some shots. But I do have one of the other posi which I'll put on ebay, they look about the same.
Jim
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A little more progress today on the diff, all bolts loctited and torqued. Then another snag, turns out the power-lok and the true-trac units use different side bearings and I blew up the old bearings pulling them off the 2 series power-lok case. So not only do I not have bearings for the posi, my setup bearings do not fit either. Which means I get to go shopping for new bearings. Again. On the positive side, at least my setup bearings will be new also so I won't have to juggle preload on the final assembly. Man I sure love those positive outcomes! Sometimes it's the only thing that keeps me going.
I also checked my ring end gap on the 340 and came out with .020, .015, and .025" on the top, 2nd and oil rings respectively. Not too bad for a start, and falls right into the range of SAE recommended clearances for this size bore. Using Total Seal's (my ring mfg) recommended specs for blown gas applications I'm .001" tight on the top ring (.0029" loose for N/A street) and .0017" loose on the 2nd. Considering that this engine isn't going to be a full out race engine I think I can live with that, so next I need to check the gap on all the rings for consistency. If that looks good then I'm all set to install the rings, rods and pistons. I've decided to go ahead and finish that part up before installing the o-rings in the decks, which should give me time to find a new set of flush cutting snips that I like the looks of.
I feel cutting the ends of the o-ring wires may be a bit of a challenge. For instance, would it be better to cut the ends just a very small bit long, insert the ends and then work back towards the middle, thereby causing the entire ring to go into compression? Or perhaps start in the middle and when an inch or two from the end put the ends in and then the bulge? Will an angle cut truely be the best, and should it be dressed with a fine file or stone? Well I suppose I'll know the answers to those questions in a few days. Wish me luck..I think I'm going to need it.
Soon I'll be switching off to lathe work, maybe sooner than I had planned. I have a chunk of extra extra heavy wall steel tube just a couple inches long that I planned to use for the base of the die set for enlarging the holes in the copper head gaskets, and of course it's also just the right size to make a tapered ring compressor out of. So I may have to saw it in half and make the ring compressor before I can install the pistons. These new rings are only about .040" thick and they might be just a little tricky to install with my old standby band type compressor. Plus everything I've ever heard about tapered ring compressors indicates that they are just a fantastic item, a true wonder tool, and I think I probably owe it to myself to personally experience such a fantasy. Why not? all it'll take is a little lathe time...
Jim
Jim,
Check this link & be sure to click on the thumbnails:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/5198/manufacturer_tech_tip_installing_wire_orings_in_cylinder_blocks.aspx
Thanks for the pic above. It does a great job of explaining piston pin offset.
Thanks Carl, that was very helpful. I especially liked the detailed instructions given in the picture links, that really helped me understand the process. Matthew and I went out today and hunted for the right snips and plastic hammer. Eventually on our second trip out we ended up at Sears where we found three useful items. First, a 6 oz. soft face hammer #38298 which should be hard enough and light enough to do a good job driving in the wire, second a set of Channelock brand flush cutters #357 which I think I can grind to give a nearly square end to the cut wire, and then a find Matthew came up with which was a bag of slip on plastic boots for pliers which give them non-marking jaws. We also picked up a new fine tooth file. These tools should make it much easier to handle the wire and get everything fitted correctly. Dale recommended cutting the wire ends at an angle, much as you would do in joining two long pieces of hardwood trim. So I think I have the idea now, and the tools, and should probably go ahead with that part of the job.
I test fitted the individual rings in the cylinders and there was very little variation in end gap, about a thousandth or so and I was able to swap a couple of them and get even results all around. I will re-check when installing them on the pistons, and mark the holes they are to go into with a sharpie on the piston crown.
It turns out I had overlooked one set of good used bearings that fit the power-lok posi somehow, so I decided to use them as the set-up bearings. This meant enlarging the bore to a slip fit on the carrier. It turns out that a flapper wheel is really inadequate for this job so it would take a very long time to do that way. Instead I chucked up the bearing in the lathe and used a hand held die grinder with a hard stone to dress it out and the flapper wheel to smooth it, fitting the bearings on the old Jag carrier. When I tried them on the 3 series unit I discovered the journals were egg shaped, one by .002" and the other by .006". Evidently this posi unit had been very badly abused. So now I'm back to square one yet another time. I sent the seller a message, hopefully he can make it good.
Funny, I didn't feel like I got much accomplished today. But in writing it up it looks much more impressive. Wonder why that is? Anyway, I just keep trying to do bite sized jobs and not worry too much about deadlines. I guess it'll get done when it gets done.
Jim
Quite a long hard day today and physically demanding too. But, I was able to do some work on the engine this evening. First some pictures.
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Here's the cutters after being modified. I ground them down until the groove between the jaws disappeared and then buffed the surface so that I could get a true flush cut at the wire ends, the object being a flat end.
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And here's the result. The Channelock cutters use one edge and an anvil so mating the two is a little less critical than it might be otherwise. Not a bad result but it did weaken the cutting edge substantially.
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Here the wires are inserted and ready to be marked and trimmed to final length
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And this is what the final joint looks like. It really wasn't bad at all using those cutters, and the little Craftsman hammer was just the right size and weight. I marked the wires, pulled a couple inches back out of the groove, trimmed them, shooting for about .020" extra length, inserted the end and tapped it into place and then worked the bulge into the groove. I found the wire to be very bendable, but still pretty tough when it came to cutting it. I had to be real careful about the way I did that, and I nicked the cutting edge several times in the process. I've got another photo.
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Here's how it looked when all done. I'm satisfied with the results, and rather pleased to be able to say that I didn't have to start over on any of them. Not bad for an old shade tree mechanic.
I also broke down the differential again and removed the ring gear, Happily the ebay seller is going to send me a replacement. This is where the corollary comes into play. I'm now on the third go-around with the posi unit, all due to unforeseeable circumstances. Lucky for me I had already counted on doing it twice.
Jim
Yesterday I punched out the bore holes in the copper 215 head gaskets , only to discover that they won't work on the 340 because the top coolant holes are uncovered. (steam holes) Anybody want a set of big bore 215/Rover copper gaskets? O-rings are recommended. Guess I'll list them in the classifieds. So I scrapped out the punch and die set and turned the die into a tapered ring compressor for the 3.800" bore. Then I fitted the head studs and set the heads in place on the block, just checking the fit. Looks pretty good so far. I need to get 2 more studs because TA didn't have the right set so I got the 215 set instead.
Jim
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Here's what I'm looking at for a camshaft:
dur@.050 lift: In/Ex Adv. dur lobe separation Mfg: Accelerated Motion
205/217 .427/.448 251/264 112 14821-20743
I realize the specs are kinda mild, that's part of the plan. I would actually like to have a 116* lobe separation, but this will do if it's the best I can come up with.
I'm using Pat Kelley's dynamic compression ratio (DCR) calculator:
http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
This cam gives a DCR of 8.18 which is well positioned in the range recommended for street engines on 91 octane gas, but of course it doesn't allow for variations in the cam lobe area. That's a spec that is difficult to come by anyway. What I'm thinking about is something with about a 240/265 duration and a little less lift on the intake. Stock lift for the 215 was .383" so I may have some leeway there, depending on the ramp. Those numbers give a DCR of 8.26 which may be a little higher than I want to go with a blower, but they also give a 20.5* overlap which should improve economy and make the boost very effective. I like this a lot better than one manufacturer who recommended a cam with 60* overlap, that closed 72* ABDC and had a DCR of 7-1/4. I understand why he made those recommendations, but he failed to understand the application.
I'm trying to find the specs on the stock cam for comparison. I may be a little low on the duration, but at least I'm getting closer.
Jim
The rods and pistons are now installed. Due to decking the block and a slight rocking of the pistons the crowns stick up .008" above the deck. No big deal, I'll just order .050" thick gaskets and that will give me a comfortable .040"+ in whatever little squish area there is around the chamber. I installed a stock camshaft and checked clearances. It turns out there is .050" clearance between the cam lobes and the crankshaft counterweights, and I have .055" clearance to the rods. The cam has .250" of lobe lift which makes .387" or .400" of valve lift depending on the rocker ratio. In this engine at least, any additional lift in the cam comes from reducing the base circle, something I was not aware of.
I've found an old school cam grinder in N.C. who is willing to work with me to come up with a good grind for this cam. Sounds like he knows his stuff and is willing to give it enough thought to make something good. The company is Camcraft Cams if anyone has heard of them. They seem to do quite a bit of Ford and Corvette special jobs. They're in the process of moving from Maryland right now so it'll be at least a couple weeks before anything happens there. In the meantime I'll probably go ahead and order the head gaskets, that way I can install the heads. They'll probably take a little time too so I'll try to paint the block in the meantime.
The saga continues on the IRS. Dan wasn't able to find me another posi and refunded instead, so I'm back on the hunt. I've found a Jag vendor I may buy one from, at about a 50% increase. While I'm at it I'll get some small parts for the Roadmaster that we have to have.
It will soon be time to turn my attention back to the transmission. I've heard TCI now has an automatic/manual valve body for the 2004r which has no delay in the manual shifting positions. Guess I need to contact them.
Jim
The sample 340 head gasket is in the mail to SCE Gaskets and the new copper head gaskets ordered. Another power-lok posi is on order, this time a used Jag unit, hopefully in a little better condition this time, and I also ordered a half dozen brake rotor shims and a hub nut washer. So the only IRS parts still needed should be the coil over units and I have requested a catalog from QA1. The workshop has been hovering right around the low 30's so not exactly warm working conditions but out of the weather and not exactly frigid either. While I'm waiting on parts I guess I'll try to prep the block for paint and maybe tidy up a bit. Lord knows it needs that. Anyway the good news is that Monday's the first day of spring. Couldn't come soon enough if you ask me!
Jim
Jim,
Quote: Anyway the good news is that Monday's the first day of spring
Vernal Equinox coming early this year?......last time I checked, it was March 20/09.
I guess this cold, snowy Winter is getting to all of us......
I think he's counting on good news from Punxsutawney Phil. ;)
Lawyer logic is involved, I believe.
Lawyer logic? hmmm.....
Well, OK since you asked. Winter solstice is recognized by many societies as "Midwinter's Day". That means the March equinox would be mid-spring, therefore Feb. 2, being halfway between must be the first day of Spring. And just look, isn't the weather warming up nicely? Better get those cars ready!
I believe I'd mentioned that I ordered another posi unit, this one from Coventry West in Georgia, and at a cost of $350 and $60 shipping. Herein lies the reason for searching out a complete Jag rear suspension unit with the desired gears and posi unit before buying. A few more dollars well spent for the correct parts the first time around can pay off handsomely compared to piecing it together. Now that does mean a flange type driveshaft connection and a u-joint yoke is a bit expensive at perhaps as much as $80 depending on where you get it, but changing the yoke is easy compared to a complete setup of the gears. Likewise, shortened tubular half-shafts and lower control arms from an established custom parts supplier such as Concours West Industries (CWI) can make very good sense compared to making them yourself. Now as best I recall I had the IRS unit for somewhere around $250-300, meaning I just paid for a second one at the same price with enough change for the yoke, provided I found the same sort of a deal. Regardless, the total would easily pay for the desired unit and then some.
I have yet to do any more than pull the cover. They sent the entire differential unit including bottom brackets and brake brackets. These brake brackets are cast aluminum pieces with a one bolt attachment point. Obviously it used a different brake caliper, most likely a floating caliper, and I would very much like to get some more information on those, including what material was used for the body and what configuration of parking brake was used.
A cursory check shows up nothing obviously defective in the unit, but it was a core so was most likely removed due to noise. I will begin inspection and probable disassembly in a few days after I check backlash and the torque capacity of the posi unit. I doubt I can use it as-is but you never know.
As for the engine, head gaskets are on order, the mains are properly torqued and the last two head studs are in place. The pan should go on shortly along with the oversized pickup tube and a windage tray if I can fit one. Then I'll start work on the front cover. In about a week or so Charles at CamcraftCams will be able to recommend a cam grind, and checking my valve springs indicates I should have about 300lbs at .490" lift. I think that should work out well.
Jim
I found out why the Jag diff was a core. The cross pins for the spiders had both broken right across the center hole, so it probably made some very odd and hard to identify noises. It wouldn't have caused imminent destruction or anything like that but would have required a nearly full teardown to find the problem. Easier to replace the whole thing. Which works out good for me as there is very little wear, and I still have the cross pins from the trashed Ford diff. They have no center hole so should be stronger.
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I removed the pressed on trigger wheel which I believe drove the speedometer but I'm beginning to have second thoughts about that. It might be useful for cruise control and would hurt nothing to put back in.
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A very pleasant surprise was that this unit uses 7/16" ring gear bolts rather than the 3/8" ones used in earlier units, meaning it is fully interchangeable with Dana 44 parts, and I will not have to drill out the bolt holes to fit my 3.54 Dana gears. It also came with a set of very nice 3.54 gears, but I haven't yet removed the pinion flange to see if it is coarse spline like the older Jag units or fine spline like most of the Dana 44 ones. If it is fine spline, I might consider just using the new case as the pinion depth and backlash is already set. I guess pulling that flange is the next step.
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Dan will be interested to know that the Olds motor he blew up is now gone, other than a few bits and pieces like the pan and front cover, and of course the induction system and blower. I sold the heads and the short block on ebay and the proceeds are helping to pay for the build on the 340. I might as well sell the blower too, I doubt I will use it on the other Olds 215 I have and I will probably sell the 215 as well. That is, whenever I get the time to disassemble it.
Jim
Not gonna blow the 340? What are you going to do with that big hole in the hood?
I have a bigger blower for the 340. It's a M-112 instead of a M-90. That's close to a 25% increase in displacement but the 340 is almost a 60% increase, so I'd have to spin it faster to get the same amount of boost, which would just be crazy, but I may call Magnuson to see what their engineers recommend. I haven't decided on whether or not to use an intercooler this time, I'm thinking it's going to be completely unnecessary though, with the lower boost levels and the higher static compression. Plus with less boost pressure there will be less heat for the intercooler to remove, so I'm thinking it's just more complication that isn't going to help much.
I'm not sure what I can get for the old blower setup, probably have to sell it with the drive including the crank trigger and front cover. That means I'll have to buy a new drive extension and I don't recall what the cost of that was. More questions to ask. Guess I'll need to start mocking it up as soon as my head gaskets come in. More calls to make.
I'm ready to begin assembly of the differential again. Interestingly enough, Jaguar used the same odd clutch stack in this Power-Lok as I found in the other one, a stack that gives 3 friction surfaces per side. Using a conventional stack gives 5 per side. Torque of the unit before disassembly was 40 ft lbs, possibly at least partially because of the broken cross pins, but I should have around 140. Well, this time for sure. Think I'll get a new set of side bearings too. Probably better start looking around for more stuff to sell....
Jim
Seems the details are very important in differential work. I just slapped the thing together but when I tested the torque of the clutches all it had was 75 ft/lbs. So I opened the case and swapped in the internals for the 2 series unit which had given me 140. When I tested it again I had picked up 15 but not what I had expected. So I broke it down again, cleaned the lube off all the parts and set to with dial calipers, dial indicator and micrometer to find out why, and discovered there are some significant variations in the parts, and not always as expected either. For instance, the newer and less worn plates with the inner spline were about .0015" thicker, but the older plates with the external tabs were .003-.005" thicker. The newer spider gears gave maybe .005" of extra height to the internal assembly, but the older cones that surround the side gears were .020" taller.
The stack-up didn't account for the difference in torque so it was probably in the depth of the bores in the case. That's something I couldn't change so I just reassembled with the thickest parts and this time came up with 120 ft/lbs. That's just about what it should be so I'm happy.
Then I slid on the set-up side bearings with a couple shims under each one (they had each had 3 in the other case) and slipped the unit into the gear case, snugged down the caps lightly and checked the play. Shoved all the way away from the pinion it felt like about .020-.030" backlash and shoved towards it there was none. Good so far. Next I'll add shims on the left until the backlash is in range, add to the right until the fit in the case is snug, and then check the pattern. That will tell me if the pinion is centered properly, and I will probably have to re-shim that and do it all over 2 or 3 times before everything lines up right.
If anyone tells you that there are no shortcuts in axle work, listen to them. It's probably someone who has tried it all and knows. And if you ever wondered why work takes longer than the quoted time, just consider the above. Much of this would be the same whether I was doing it or your friendly neighborhood shop, the only difference being they aren't going to give you a detailed description of just what went on because they don't want to look incompetent. Can't say I blame them one bit, I'm only saying when it takes longer than you expect there are usually some real good reasons for that which have nothing to do with the skills involved. All new parts do help, but even new parts aren't always what you expect them to be.
Jim
Sometimes you just get lucky. Too bad it doesn't happen more often, but I sure do appreciate it when it does.
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The contact pattern looks pretty good. Evidently my interpretation of the somewhat ambiguous depth markings on the end of the pinions was on the money, so all that's left is to add a shim for preload and install the new bearings which should be in on Monday. It will be nice to have this part of the job behind me. Once it's buttoned up the hog's head will go back on the upside down MG body section to assemble the other parts and finish up the last few pieces. I should be ordering coil-overs sometime during the week as well. Shouldn't be long before the swap takes place. Then we'll see just how close actual practice comes to theory.
Jim
Here are some new photos of the engine.
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Jim
Freeze plugs, oil pump shims and a few other small parts came in today, but I've switched off to the IRS again. On that, I turned down the hub centers and polished one of the drill rods down. If you'll remember those were 5/8 dia x 36" long and will form the heart of the forward extension of the lower control arm pivot. I actually have to polish four of them since the Roadmaster will also be using this arrangement. Happily, about the time I finished the first one I remembered a couple of tricks that should speed up the job on the 3 remaining ones, so hopefully I can get that done tomorrow.
So the hubs are ready to assemble to the uprights, and I have new bearings to install in the lower pivots, which means it's almost time to sort out all those small parts and figure out how they go back together. What fun. Once that is done I can put stuff together and look to see what has to be done to make the remaining parts. Quite a bit left to do, but with warmer weather it'll be easier.
Jim
OK, the hubs are assembled and the bearings need shimmed, seals and spacers for the lower pivots need installed, and then bolt it all up. I've decided on heim joints for the forward pivot and found some nice pieces that use an alloy body and oversize stud. That should be substantial enough, and I'll use spring eye bushings for isolation, like originally planned. There will also be a UHMW strip across the front of the forward cross brace for forward thrust against the lip of the panel below the driveshaft. All four of the lengths of 5/8" drill rod are at size but need to have the ends turned and threaded. Or maybe just threaded... more to think about. The rods will pass through the center of the cross brace and pinion angle will be fixed at 3 degrees. The angle braces will have a cut and welded angle at the heim joint and a slight bow where they go under the battery boxes. At 1" dia and .156" wall they should be strong enough but should they bend they can be upgraded to larger diameter tubing rather easily.
Next step is to lay out the holes in the tie bars and finish all that up and then I should be ready for the heim joints.
Jim
Hey, I accidentally found the sections of Jag IRS cage that act as tie bars... They are on the MGB-Roadmaster! Here I was searching all around for them and then ran across them by accident. Well, loads of progress. The uprights are assembled to the half shafts with the proper amount of preload on the timken bearings (as are the ones for the GT as well) and the trunion bearings and seals are also assembled. New neoprene seals are used rather than the old style felt and the housings will be filled with synthetic gear oil. It turns out the spacer tubes are the right length without any shims to give heavy preload to the trunions, and this is desirable because the bearings see only a few degrees of rotation and overheating will never be an issue. Lack of adequate preload allows the rollers to beat divots in the races resulting in looseness and torque steer. So here is an instance where heavy preload is a good thing. I'm stopping by Graingers in the morning in hopes of picking up a pack of .010" shims to take up the slack in the joint to the LCA and then these go together for the last time. This assembly method has reduced the parts count by at least 8 or 10 pieces per side and should be much more effective than the original design, while retaining the rigidity of the timken bearings.
I also found a couple of 30 year old pieces of stainless tubing that I was able to use to bush the shock mounting bolts down to 1/2", which fits the coil-over units I'll be using. With some serious hunting I was able to find enough to do both cars and that part is ready to be bolted up, hopefully as soon as the heim joint seals come in.
I stopped by Marmon/Keystone in hopes of buying some tubing for the diagonal links, and Tom Jackson remembered me and the Roadmaster. Since they had already given us some tubing for that project and because this piece was going to be used for the GT as well, he gave us the length of tubing for the Roadmaster and there is plenty extra to make the links I need for my roadster also.
I began to fit the brake calipers and I see what all the hubbub is about. While I was doing that I was also bead blasting the rotors (which barely show use but had a good bit of rust) when all of a sudden the compressed air system blew a hose off the feed line to the big tank and vented a couple hundred gallons of 140 psi air. That was some excitement, with the loose 3/4" hose whipping the fiberglass insulation off the walls about 12 ft up in the corner of the building, so with all that glass in the air I concluded it was time to quit for the day, cut the lights and locked up. Tomorrow I'll apply a more permanent sort of bypass to the leaky chiller unit that caused all the trouble in the first place.
I'm hoping to get everything on the IRS more or less finished up in the next couple of days, but that kinda depends on deliveries. I got a lot closer today though. It's nice being able to do the work with the whole shebang turned upside down.
Jim
Today I learned the trick to changing Jaguar brake pads. Using the two holes in the rotor, you just unbolt the stub axle housing and pull the whole works out the side. Pretty slick, I just need a little more clearance in the crossmember. I also need to relocate the top shock mount, thread the pivot rods, paint some spacer tubes, a few more small details and it's ready to go together for the last time. Couldn't be too soon, this week maybe for sure. ;-)
Jim
More good news about those Jag brakes, the pads can be changed easily and without removing the calipers. Most sensible of the old chaps considering what a pain it is to pull the works. So clearly frequent pad changes to avoid rotor damage is the regimen.
I threaded one of the pivot rods today, a bit of a job but now that I know how to properly accomplish it the other three will come easier. Also got the spacer tubes painted and organized parts for assembly. Put the brake/stub shaft assemblies together with new brake pads and wouldn't you know, haven't been able to lay my hands on the safety wire and pliers. Well, they'll turn up, hopefully tomorrow. Also drilled the crossbar and prepared the spring eyes, so those parts can be welded up and I think a gusset is in order as well.
So here it is nearly Thursday. Will it go together by week's end? Stay tuned.
Oh, the cam came in also. Looks to be a decent performance grind, hopefully it will compliment the engine well.
Jim
All the pivot rods are done finally, and so is relocating the upper shock mounts and widening the notches so that the brakes can be easily changed. I could have gotten by with only widening one side but went ahead and did both, and I dropped the IRS out of the Roadmaster and did the same mods on it as well.
Now here's a photo where I trimmed the bell of the upright on the Roadmaster IRS:
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The piece cut off is laying below. This is something I've been considering ever since Evan mentioned it a couple years back. The goal in building this IRS was a pure bolt-in swap and cutting the bump stop hump away does not qualify as bolt-in. However, trimming the bell makes it unnecessary except in extreme cases. There is still further testing to do, but with my 17" Corvette wheels and 275 tires, the sidewall hangs on the hump. However, at full compression the sidewall still contacts the inner wheelwell, indicating that most likely this hump removal only results in a gain of about a quarter inch. Well, if a quarter inch is the difference between clearing and not clearing it can be removed but most folks do not run that close, especially on the inboard side. We're talking 7-1/4" of backspacing here. At 7" or less it should clear easily, certainly 6-3/4" should be more than enough, and you have to run at least an 8-1/2 or 9" rim to do that, maybe even 10". Even with flares most can't fit such a tire.
So the reason for cutting the bell was to clear the hump, which it did interfere with slightly. Now with that obstruction gone, interference with the tire as above is the issue, and it isn't much of one. What we have is a case of one or the other. If the hump is trimmed, there is no need to trim the bell and vice-versa, although as noted it makes a slight difference in tire space. For the Roadmaster and all bolt-in applications this is clearly the way to go. For my car, with the 275's, that 1/4" just might be needed. It'll be close, and I need to do more measuring. I'm already pretty sure the 7-1/4 is going to need to be pulled out to 7" with a spacer or change of wheels but how close I'll be to the lip outside is still undetermined. But I think it'll be close. Everything hinges on the control arms, quite literally, and I can't really determine the outcome until the unit is bolted in.
Wheels with this combination will be everything, and I don't know where that will take us. But if an 8" wheel with a 6-1/2" offset is a possibility and can be made to fit the car with standard flares then I think we have a winner. If we can bring the uprights in another 2" it would work with the standard bodywork with no problem. Without a doubt there is a combination somewhere in between that will work reasonably well and eventually we may find it. Just not today.
Jim
The diagonal braces are in the paint booth (the ones for the GT will have to wait their turn on the mule for fitting and welding). I think they will turn out to be quite strong and rigid despite a slight bow to fit beneath the battery boxes at full compression. There's still some fiddling with the shock mounting hardware, and I've decided to run diagonal straps from the rear tie bar to the outboard ends of the crossmember, most likely using the original shock mount holes to do so. I should have some photos in a day or so.
Jim
Ready to install (still some shock hardware to sort out)
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The one for the GT is on the mule and will be in the same form in a day or so.
Jim
Looks good. Have you weighed it?
Also, Curtis gave me good input on getting the shock mounts out of single shear... would be pretty easy to do on this from the looks of it.
Jim, that is really nice. Great work.
Jim, that setup looks pretty stout and should hold up very well to the 340!
Great looking work!
Thanks for the compliments guys. I don't have a really good means of weighing the unit but I'll see what I can set up in the next day or two.
I thought about double shear on the shocks but it's not that easy to do because of the way the diagonal brace attaches. I think the extra strength of the stainless bolts will prove adequate though. In the next version I'm considering a new design for the lower control arm rather than using cut down Jag units and this will save considerable weight and allow a much better shock mount as well as more optimum positioning. The main cross member can be improved also, and tubular half-shafts will remove even more weight. Ventilated brake rotors are another possible option, and with the unsprung weight reduced even further the ride is bound to improve even more.
I know the Jag brakes have been berated but I've come to realize that this really is a very good system, especially for the day when it was designed but no less so today. For instance, the brake pads can be changed from under the car with nothing more complicated than a pair of needle nosed pliers. Two stainless hairpins are pulled, two cross pins slid to the side and the pads slip right out. The e-brakes are a puzzle to assemble but simple enough once you know how, and as long as you check the main pads often enough to make sure the rotors don't get scored, brake maintenance is no big deal.
I'll have some more information once the unit is bolted into the car but that might not happen right away. I've neglected certain other duties in order to reach this point as quickly as possible and may not get back to it for a little while. In the meantime I've just gotten word that my head gaskets should be ready to ship by about Wednesday and I'd like to finish assembling the engine.
Jim
Last night I installed the IRS and it was a bit of a job. Lines and wires had to be moved, the two outside upper corners of the battery boxes had to have bends put in them to allow the bolt heads of the upper coil-overs to clear during removal (this was not completely mandatory, removal of the spacer tube first gives enough clearance, but who wants to muck around with that?) and the whole unit had to go in and out several times before I had the proper tank clearance. It seems those torque straps that I added to the rear need a little space where the gas tank resides so I had to ding in the front edge of the tank in a couple of spots. Not enough to affect tank capacity, but not the sort of thing you want to be doing on a so called bolt-in installation either. So if I make any more of these a slight re-design would be in order to get the correct clearances. Oh well, these things are to be expected on a prototype. The good news is that it is now in place and the jack is out. I won't be working on it any more until after the weekend, then I'll secure it in place and hook up the brakes, which should be an easy task as everything was prepared in advance.
I had a question about the weight and I'm happy to say that I found the opportunity to weigh everything. I wish we had a page for weights and dimensions, but for now, the IRS is 90 lbs heavier than the stock MGB rear suspension, including springs, shocks, and hardware. Not bad if you ask me and that can be reduced to less than 50 by using tubular half-shafts and after market lower control arms, further reducing unsprung weight in the process. The stock suspension, complete except for sway bar is 235 lbs (axle is 160) and the modified Jag IRS is 325 lbs. For my application this will nicely offset the additional 82 lbs from the iron block 340 engine in the front, brakes are now fully upgraded all around and there is plenty of extra power to more than offset the additional weight.
I added bump stops to the coil-over units and rear suspension travel is now a full 8 inches. Quite exceptionally really for a car of this sort. The spring rate and shock settings seem a good combination although some might think the springs a little soft. I upgraded the springs on the Roadmaster from the 225 used here to 250 so this should give us a good comparison. I did find that the use of Corvette rear wheels requires a little more width hub-to-hub so 3/4" can be added to each control arm and half-shaft, getting us within 4" of the original XJ6 width. The suspension geometry looks very good.
Next week my head gaskets should finally arrive and I can finish assembly of the engine then it will be on to the modified 200r4 transmission and the intake manifold. Those will take some time but maybe not all that much.
Jim
Been nearly a week since I got the IRS bolted into place and I've hardly even been out to the shop. I'm just not as durable as I used to be a few years back and I'm not real used to that kind of work these days. But the good news is that the head gaskets got here today so now I can get on with checking valve clearance and pushrod length. If I'm real lucky I might even be able to put the pan and valve covers on, but I'm not going to count on it. It's very likely I'll need custom pushrods. I sort of doubt I'll have to cut valve reliefs though. Should know more in a few days.
On the rear, I'll have to mark and drill the mounting plates and get those secured, hook up the brake line and e-brake cable (already shortened) and get a pair of springs for the e-brake caliper return since I used mine on the Roadmaster last week. Then I need to start thinking about what I'm going to do for wheels since the Corvette ones are just too close (I think).
Then, with everything finished on the rear (except the wing actuators) it will be time to get back to the transmission and the intake, both of which will take some dedicated thought. Maybe after the meet in Durham I'll have a little time to put aside for that exclusively, wouldn't that be nice?
Jim
Jim, Buy a set of billet same bolt pattern spacers. They are 1 1/2". $69.00 a pair on ezaccessory.com.
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Thanks Jim, do they make them in 1/2" or 3/4"? I believe either would give me what I need. 1-1/2" might work but I haven't had the chance to see how much clearance I have to the outside yet.
In the long run I need different wheels and I want something a lot lighter, but even then, there's going to be a wider selection on the Corvette wheels.
Jim
Jim, best company I know of for spacers is Skulte... www.skulte.com That's where I got mine. There's two types -- 1st type slips over the studs & gets sandwiched between the wheels & hubs. Those are good to about 1/4". Some folks will say 3/8". The 2nd type are the ones like Jim N posted. They bolt to your existing hubs & have their own studs for the wheels. Skulte can do them 3/4" - 4" (although I can't imagine using any that thick).
Note that there are cheaper places, but Skulte has a reputation for quality.
Jim, 1" to 3".
I appreciate the help guys. First choice is going to be different wheels though, these are awfully heavy. Plus I'm not a real big fan of wheel spacers and then there's the unescapable fact that the spacer has to be at least as thick as the original lugs are long, so that probably means 1-1/4" at best. Finally, if I add the cost of the spacers to the wheel purchase budget I should have some pretty decent choices, and might be able to sell the Vette wheels also. But I do need to bolt up the wheels and look at the outside clearance before doing anything else. Perhaps I can get that done today.
Jim
I certainly understand the desire to avoid spacers if you can... but RE: the spacer has to be at least as thick as the original lugs are long... I don't know of a reason you cant cut them off to not extend past the spacers.
If you do end up going the spacer route, note that you should use ARP or similar studs IMO -- so there's that expense too. Prices on studs are all over the board but seem to range from about $25-80 for 10 of them.
I got the IRS bolted in so I decided to install the wheel and tire to check clearance. Below are photos, I checked clearance in the entire range of travel. My maximum outside clearance is 1-1/8", measured at the sides of the flare under heavy compression, and the tire just squeaks past the bump stop hump (slightly doctored) and then hits the sheet metal at full compression. So to center it I could come out 9/16" and should be just about there, or I could come out as much as 3/4" and look better maybe, but be closer to rubbing. Any more is going to be too much.
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I noticed that the Vette wheels have a space between the lugs so an adapter thinner than the lugs (1-1/8") would work. One intriguing possibility occurred to me as I was looking at a damaged Jag IRS hub flange. It is .470" thick and that would probably be enough. It would have to be counterbored and have holes drilled and countersunk for the other lug pattern, not a real problem. But I only have one of them. I also have a set of 5/8" flanges on the axles of the old MG axle that came out of the car. They have a 5 lug pattern but it is 4-1/2" Probably too much machining is needed to use those though since they would have to be cut away from the spline hubs but I think they could be made to work. I 'll have to give it some more thought, the answer is there somewhere (yeah, like buy wheels with a 40mm offset instead of 56!)
Jim, did you ever get a chance to weigh a bare 340 block?
Greg
Yes Greg, the 340 block weighs 82 lbs more than a bare 215 block.
Jim
Finially the correct copper head gaskets are in and I've been able to get back to work on the engine. While waiting I ported the oil passages in the front cover and in the lower oil pump housing. For the uninitiated, the entire Buick V8 line including the 215's and the Rover derivatives all come up a little short when it comes to oiling. (Nailheads excepted) Nobody seems to know why the oiling system was compromised with small passages and many bends but fortunately for us the problem was recognized long enough ago that the remedies are now well proven, and essentially consist of enlarging passages and rounding corners. In the block, the suction passages (2 intersecting straight holes) get drilled out larger, to 9/16" or if you dare, 5/8". The stock pickup gets tossed in favor of a 5/8" ID pickup, the output oil transfer passage in the front cover gets drilled out from 7/16" to 1/2" or somewhat larger, and the front cover, oil pump housing, and lower cover all get ported for flow, primarily by rounding sharp edges and enlarging ports where possible. All of this boosts the oil flow through the engine enough to satisfy most performance needs, and the high volume pump modification is no longer considered a good addition as it causes extra stress on the distributor drive gears. When the oil pump is assembled careful measurement and proper selection of shims (available from TA Performance) allows setting of gear end play to .002" and addition of their booster plate stabilizes the housing. Finally, it is essential that oil losses inside the engine be controlled in order to avoid starvation of the rod bearings at the rear of the engine. First step here is to tightly control rod and main bearing clearances. Buick engines run tight clearances and figures of around .0015" are the norm. Lack of attention to the cam bearings can also cause oil loss, so these must fit properly, and losses from the rocker assemblies must not be excessive. However, an indication of 10 psi per 1000 rpm is usually considered acceptable. So with that mostly out of the way I turned my attention to the valvetrain.
With the heads and head gaskets in place selection of proper pushrods becomes the next issue. This brings up another little item. Did you know that in the trade, the SBB cam is referred to as a reduced base circle (RBC) cam? And this applies not just to the 340 but to the entire SBB line including the V6's, the 350, the 215 and all the Rover versions. This is because they all share the same crank to cam centerline distance and all but the V6 and 350 share the same cam. It's called a RBC cam because due to internal engine clearances and the cam journal sizes, any increase in lobe lift is gotten by grinding deeper into the base circle of the cam, leaving the tip of the lobe at about the same spot for all grinds. Why is this important? Simply because it means that any lift change is going to require new pushrods. This, and a lack of general knowledge about this one simple fact accounts for a great deal of frustration over lifter tap after a cam change since that extra lift just ate up your safety margin in the lifters.
So then for me the question was, what length pushrods do I need? Luckily I found some old tubular pushrods and screw tips from some motorcycle rockers and made up four adjustable pushrods which I used to determine the length (9.180") plus a nominal preload (.040") plus a safety factor (.030") giving me a pushrod length of 9.250" and these were ordered from Smith Bros. I'd much rather have them a shade long than too short and the lifters can accommodate nearly 1/4" of preload. Next I needed to know how much valve clearance I had to the piston. Recommendations are .120" on the intake and .090" for exhaust. So using an old set of lifters which had been modified as adjustable solid lifters and set at .020" compression (internal spring replaced with an adjustable bolt and nut), I placed a bar of clay across the piston, installed the head and the adjustable pushrods, took out all the slack and cranked the engine over by hand. On removal I retrieved the clay, sliced it across the closest approach of the valve to piston and took measurements. Photo below. A 1/4" tool bit is used as a visual reference showing a clearance of approximately 1/4" so with the 10-3/4:1 pistons and .500" lift there's a large safety margin. Of course other cams will be different, especially one with more overlap.
Jim
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I got a chance to do some more work to the 340 finally. First I pulled one head and dialed in the degree wheel.
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Then I cleaned up the deck, heads and gaskets, put a thin smear of Right Stuff sealant around the oil and coolant holes and along the lifter valley and torqued the heads down to 65 ft lbs. (ARP recommended specification) Note, the stock spec for the 340 is 80, but the ARP studs are fine thread, have moly lube on the threads, and the heads are aluminum, all of which lowers the required torque. It feels real good at 65, that's adequate pressure to bed the o-rings, and I got a fine squish of sealant in the right places telling me that all is well.
Next I put an indicator on the valves and degree'd the cam.
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The results I got were not in exact compliance with the cam card, and I also found I had 5 degrees of slop in the double roller timing chain. Compliments of the align bore. But before I rush out and buy yet another timing set I've asked the Buick V6 guys about the tensioner used in the V6. Don't know if it can be adapted or not but that would be a handy solution if it could. I also found a casting flash on the big end of the crank lines up just about perfectly with a rib in the bell area at TDC. Very handy.
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Jim
"I also found I had 5 degrees of slop in the double roller timing chain. Compliments of the align bore"
Not necessarily, I noticed that Dale takes extra pains to remove metal from the caps rather than the block. Some (maybe most) of that may be in the chain.
I tried my best to get Tim to advance his cam 4 degrees while we were reinstalling his timing chain at Flying Circus.
"Not necessarily, I noticed that Dale takes extra pains to remove metal from the caps rather than the block. Some (maybe most) of that may be in the chain."
I wasn't blaming Dale. You should have seen what he had to work with, right, left, right, the main saddles looked like a snake and the caps were off a different block from all indications. It's a true testament to his skill that he was able to bring it in at all. With it perfectly straight there was just a bit of color along the parting line on one side of the center main. Not absolutely perfect, but as there are no heavy loads there, plenty good enough. I sort of expected this problem but I went so long without working on the engine that I forgot that I planned to check it with the unused silent chain set before buying a roller set. Now I have extras.
Jim
More progress:
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$30 cut square and bent to fit. I did the trimming. The fit is perfect, a little sealant is all it needs, plus the ports and bolt holes, which I will cut later. In the meantime it makes a perfect base for fitting up pieces to the intake and tacking them, while keeping swarf out of the motor. So next I need to get an intake gasket for port matching and buy some aluminum plate to make up the intake. I've got some feelers out for a TIG and hope to have that sorted out in a week so things can move forward.
The chain slack is 7/16" which translates to a .008" oversize timing set. Anyone know a good source for that? TA wants $145+ which seems a little high to me.
Jim
Cloyes used to do oversize chains. I think the V6 tensioner would work, I think it pivots on one bolt if I rememeber correctly.You need a tighter chain. Wouldn't that be an undersize.
Funny thing about that, I quite agree.
Jim
Jim
I recommend when you cut your ports, make them slightly smaller then the ports in the head. Then wait untill after you have machined the mating surfaces, before opening up the intake ports to match the head ports. Reason is machining/decking the mating surfaces will alter were the ports align.
I found it also helpfull to build the intake without the gaskets in place. It gives you a bit of wiggle room to work with when machining the mating surfaces. Its always easier to remove metal, then to add it back on!
The TIG welding will shrink the aluminum around the welds some. As long as you can keep the welding temps fairly stable, it should only require a minor "scimming" of the mating surfaces.
Bill
Thanks for the advice Bill. I have the lifter valley pan and what I think I'll do is sandwich that between the heads and the intake. If I could get some triangular cross section aluminum bar stock (90*, 45*, 45*) it would make it easy to match the runners and install the injector ports as I'd have a horizontal top surface and a vertical to the inside. Then just 8 rectangular sections with some of the top cut off and build up from there with the side and end walls should very nearly do it. Of course machining the ports in the bar stock might not be all that easy and it would add a little weight, but not as much as that brass plenum I had on the other motor. Come to think of it, I know a guy with a waterjet machine who could nicely slice a section of square stock diagonally. If I can't buy it that way.
I need to get some materials on hand and see what works and I can go from there. Still working on a deal on a TIG too, may go to an auction next week.
Jim
I've been working out the details. 19" of 2-1/4 square stock will make the side pieces, drill and cut the ports and then saw it on the diagonal using my table saw. 2 x 1-1/2 x .125 tube for the runners, send them all the way across to join the sides, angling them so they all fit in and cutting the tops off about an inch past center. this gives good port separation except on 2 and 1 so angle 2 farther towards 3 and possibly flare the opening on 1 a bit. Even with that the flow through the center of the intercooler will be somewhat greater than at the edges so I'm thinking of placing a diffuser plate below the blower. Made of perforated stainless and with a gap at the ends and a smaller gap at the sides, this should even out the flow over the area of the intercooler core with a bias towards the ends, hopefully just the right amount to offset reduced flow along the end walls. Getting front/rear balance even is a bit trickier. The blower discharges towards the front. The diffuser plate can be slanted down to the rear to shift flow in that general direction, or a better solution may be to angle the core (which leads back to the heat-pipe design) but there's still the bypass to deal with, which unlike in the M90 fires straight down and not into the discharge port. This means that for unboosted operation this port needs to have it's flow directed towards the front of the plenum.
Side walls of the plenum will be 3/16" aluminum with roughly a 5" rise above the runners to the blower flange. A little taller than the old design. A mating plate there will match the blower discharge port and allow removal of the core. The core will be roughly 8 x 10 x 1-1/2" with better than twice the area and volume as the old design. The mating plate will have a deflector attached to the bottom for the bypass.
That's the design as it stands now. There will be some refinements as it progresses, such as revisiting the heat pipe theory and design, location of the sneeze valve, thermostat, injectors and regulator but the basic design work is done, supplies are ready to be ordered, etc. Material costs will be $150+ not including the intercooler core. A new 9" nose for the blower will be required, and probably a support plate, as well as a new look at the accessory drive. I'm shooting for boost in the 6-8 psi range on a 10.6:1 CR and based on my earlier work I believe that can be done without melting down the engine. The key to success is that the car is simply too light to allow continued heavy boost for more than a few seconds at a time. That amount of boost will make enough heat to allow the intercooler to help out so that will definitely be a part of the design.
More later.
Jim
Today I split the large square bar stock (2-1/2") and cut it down to near size. I did this on my table saw. below is the setup:
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With a good sharp carbide tipped blade and slow steady feed this works quite well and is often a better way to cut rough stock sizes than other available methods. It throws hot chips though and you want to be very careful to avoid kick back and not crowd the blade.
So far here's how it fits:
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The ports will run horizontally through the triangles and I'll probably have Steidle Fabricating cut them on the water jet machine.
I have stock for the runners and the blower mounting flange:
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but I may have gone 1/4" tall on those, measuring on the angle instead of on the vertical, depending on the way I run the ports. If so I'll need shorter tube stock. I would also like to leave a gap below the runners, but we'll see.
Jim
RE: With a good sharp carbide tipped blade and slow steady feed this works quite well and is often a better way to cut rough stock sizes than other available methods. It throws hot chips though and you want to be very careful to avoid kick back and not crowd the blade.
That's for aluminum or other soft, non-ferous metals, right Jim?
Quite correct Rob. The critical element is tip speed for the cutting teeth, but with aluminum and a light feed it's difficult to go too fast. Some of the others, particularly copper, brass and similar alloys may be quite tricky and any steel is going to burn or break the teeth.
Jim
Looking good Jim! Are you going to make it an open individual runner type of manifold?
Table saw, your a braver man then me! Looks like it did a good job. They always make me a little nervious when I use one.
Bill
A guy who's not a little nervous around a table saw is likely to lose a finger. Or worse.
Bill, I'm still working out the details but I'd like to have an air gap below the runners, and then have IR's across the middle. The tube I have for that may be a bit tall though and I haven't decided whether to cut it down or use another approach. I'll know more after the gaskets come in this week and I cut the ports in the lifter valley pan. The ports through the triangular blocks will most likely be angled upwards towards the center and that will affect the height of the ports, and the vertical location isn't set either. I want to leave enough material above the runners to cut injector ports. Then from that point on it will be a build up of 3/16" plate with the 3/4" flange at the top.
Jim
As a long time user of table saws who still has all of his fingers (knock on wood!), the safest blade to use for this purpose has zero hook angle. Most wood cutting blades have a 7-10 degree hook angle, and tend to grab the stock as it is being fed. Some rip blades have even 20 degrees of hook angle and would be a poor choice for cutting aluminum.
Jim, You have a PM.
More progress.
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The neat thing about this is that the work was done with nothing fancier than a drill press and a jig saw. No special jigs or tooling, no cad/cam files. Just lay it out, drill the holes, and connect the dots.
I cut the ports undersize so that I can come back with the die grinder and match them to the heads. The easiest way to do this would be before the short block and heads are assembled, with just the bare parts. But I'm way beyond that point so it'll be a lot of bench work and test fitting.
Jim
Finally, more progress. In order to take a clean-up cut on the 45* angles cut on the table saw I had to do a lot of other work. Purchase and set up a TIG welder (Yay!) so I could weld mounting ears on the ends of the wedges (I got an ESAB L-Tek 306, a good heavy duty industrial machine with 380 amp capacity second hand for about $1800 after everything was set up including foot pedal, chiller, and Argon). Then the main belt on the Moog Bridgeport broke so I had to rebuild the head. But the good news is that it is now semi-operational and usable for less demanding manual jobs. So here is the result:
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The next task is to transfer the ports from the valley pan and then decide how I want to cut them out. Hopefully that will involve a little less extraneous work.
Jim
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Oooooo, Bridgeport mill!! Me want one of those!!!!!!!!!!!! Make all kinds of shiny metal things:-p
It's taken me decades to get it Bill, but the price was right. It was an old Moog Hydraport NC machine that ran on paper tape, pneumatics, and had hydraulic actuators. Quite a monstrosity really. I stripped all that off and threw it away and have converted it to ballscrews and servomotors. I have one more servo to mount and a bearing clearance to sort out, and then I can begin to sort out the servo drive and control packages, which I have yet to obtain. But I'm hoping that over the next year or so I can get that part done. In the meantime it has some limited capabilities as a manual machine. One of the thorniest issues is, oddly enough the drawbar for the spindle. Moog used a proprietary quick change with a floating drawbar. Replacing that with a more modern system is neither simple or easy.
Jim
A little more on the intake system:
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The ports are now roughed out. Once more the small bench mill was pressed into service and it did the job well. A bit of fine tuning with the die grinder and the pieces will be ready for bolt holes and injector ports. In case anyone is wondering about the 'mickey mouse ears', that is material left for the injector velocity ramps which will accelerate the boundary layer over the tips of the injectors, thereby preventing low velocity aerosol (fuel droplets) from stagnating on the back side of the injector tips. Just remember, you heard it here first.
Jim
Nice stool.
I sanded the top of it. Looks better, don't you think?
Another.
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That's amazing Jim. I am envious of your skills!!!
Good work Jim. I wonder if anyone, in our group, has made a fiberglass/composite manifold? The first Huffaker 4bbl. was made of f-glass with clear resin. I'm told they put a fluorescent dye in the gasolene and shone a strobe light on it at various rpm. to check out the "action". We all like crafty, roverman.
I think that would be a great idea. So far I've not heard of anyone doing it though. Probably not the best for a blower mount so it won't be me, but I could see a real nice piece in carbon fiber, say for the 340 with TA heads for instance. Now that would be sweet!
Jim
The intake blocks continue to lose weight:
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Jim
Looking real good Jim! The machining is awesome looking "Custom work". What lbs injectors are you using for your 340? The X will be another water passage?
Would like to see this in the flesh when it is running for sure!
Calvin
Calvin, you'll notice that in these photos the x's are gone:
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They marked the locations where I wanted to make sure I didn't accidentally cut water jacket ports. Not a particularly great place for a temp sensor or heater line either so they will be left blank.
The runners are now done as you can see. the 3-4 and 5-6 pairs will get a short divider wall between each set of openings since they are together in the induction order, which will go up to just under the intercooler core. Next will be the thermostat housing and some port work to match the runners. By then maybe I'll have the aluminum plate for the sides. When finished it will just look like a rectangular box under the blower.
Jim
OK kiddos, here we go! What you see here is an evaporator core out of a BMW. The fin area is 8 x 13 x 2-3/4" thick. Word is this unit has a 1-1/2 to 2 ton cooling capacity.
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With a 1" plenum above and below the core, the intercooler enclosure is 4-3/4" high. This might cause the blower to stick through the hood a little. An Enderlie style scoop/throttle body will be added to the top of course.
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The high pressure side has an octopus rig that feeds the entire first row of tubes independently for maximum effectiveness. Should the first row be on the top or the bottom? Still don't know the answer to that one.
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The box will be a prominent feature, but will be flanked by the injectors and rails and preceded by the thermostat housing. Ignition will be via crank trigger as before, but I see no need this time around for a cam position indicator so the appearance will be a little cleaner. Port matching work is finished. Not perfect, but with pressure to encourage flow it doesn't have to be. Welding will begin once I have a better helmet. Pressure ports and temp sensors will be incorporated both above and below the intercooler core. I expect to see a pressure drop in the 1-2psi range across the core and will compensate for that. I'm hoping to see something close to a 10 degree temperature drop. We'll see how that turns out.
Jim
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I've hit a snag. Maybe someone here can make a suggestion that might help. I decided to tack the runners to the intake wedges and I've found that EVERY ONE of my tack welds cracks straight across the center of the weld puddle as the puddle solidifies. I'm mystified. Nothing is moving around, the alloys are 6063-T52 and 6061-T6511 so weldability should be as good as it gets in an aluminum alloy I'd think, yet every weld cracks. I've not been using filler rod yet so it's just the base metal. Running straight argon gas at 15-25 cfm and creating weld puddles 1/4-3/8" diameter and up to 1/8" deep. Anybody have an idea why this might be happening?
Jim
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Here's how the ports came out. Kind of a sharp bend on the short side radius but it couldn't be helped:
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Are the pieces bolted down when you weld them? If so the parts expand as you put heat into them to weld and then when the weld solidifies and the metal is still hot, the parts try to shrink back to their original size and pulls the weld apart. You need to weld the assembly with the ports unrestrained and then machine the completed welded assembly to fit the block and heads.
Jim, the only parts bolted down are the wedges, the runners are sitting loosely in place. But I think you might be on the right track there. Also maybe I'm not putting enough heat into it and/or cleaning well enough before welding. I will try again a little later today after I get a new stainless wire brush and a 1/8" electrode collet. Been using 3/32 which seems a bit light. I can't see anything moving but in every case the weld cracks just as the metal solidifies. Maybe not enough penetration. I'll cut a couple of practice pieces and experiment a bit.
Jim
Looks like I found the answer. From the ESAB site:
"We should start by considering the crack sensitivity of the 6xxx series base material. The aluminum/magnesium/silicon base alloys (6xxx series) are highly crack sensitive because they contain approximately 1.0% Magnesium Silicide (Mg2Si), which falls close to the peak of the solidification crack sensitivity curve (Fig 1 at Al-Mg2Si curve). The Mg2Si content of these materials is the primary reason that there are no 6xxx series filler alloys made. The cracking tendency of these alloys is lowered to acceptable levels during arc welding by the dilution of the weld pool with excess magnesium (by use of the 5xxx series Al-Mg filler alloys) or excess silicon (by use of the 4xxx series Al-Si filler alloys). When we TIG (GTAW) weld on thin material, it is often possible to produce a weld, particularly on corner joints, by melting both edges of the base material together without adding filler material. In the majority of arc welding applications with this base material, we must add filler material if we want to have consistently crack free welds. A possible exception would be counteracting the cracking mechanism by maintaining a compressive force on the parts during the welding operation, which requires specialized fabrication techniques and considerations. This method is seldom used."
He goes on to say that best practice is to use generous fillets so that filler rod is required to make the welds, thereby diluting either the Si or Mg in the base metal to reduce crack sensitivity. Guess you learn something new every day, huh? I haven't tried it yet but I suspect this will cure the problems I've been having. Here's the link if anyone wants to see the graphs:
http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/Cracking-Problems-with-6xxx-series-base-alloys.cfm
Going to the Alcotec alloy selection chart:
http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/support/Alloy-Selection-Chart.cfm
it appears that for joining 6061 to 6063 the best choices for this application would be 4043, 4047, or possibly 4643 with "A" ratings for weldability and sustained service temperatures over 150* and a "B" rating for ductility.
Jim
Voila! Tried it using the 4043 filler rod and it worked just fine!
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So I proceeded to weld up the top
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and then the bottom.
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Next the sides of the water passage, then the #1 runner and the rest of the bottom. That will be sealed up completely.
Now this points out something we all should remember. As the old saying goes, "There ain't nobody so dumb they can't learn something." Well, except maybe some who think they already have it all figured out, but that wouldn't be anyone here. So not too bad for an old farm boy, if I do say so myself.
Jim
The manifold base is now complete except for the thermostat housing and bypass fitting. It went together pretty easily, and I'm happy with the results. It did warp, so I made use of the shop press to straighten it back out (try that with a cast intake!) and was able to get it within about .010" or less total run-out front to back. I can live with that, no problem, and after the IC housing and blower mount are attached I will mill the excess weld bead from the flanges and take a light clean-up cut there and perhaps at the blower mount as well. I now need to purchase more parts. The welds aren't as clean as you see on commercial parts but I'm getting better as I go and think I'll be able to do a reasonably cosmetic job on the ones that will show. Almost all of these will be hidden, either inside the box or under the intake so won't affect the finished appearance.
Jim
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Jim,
Looks really good to me. Not that I know much about what you are doing. You know me, a bolt turner.
I saw on a nother site that a man near DC has some of those T50 trans you run. I go near there when going to see my son in CT and could pick up one (or more) if you need.
Steve
Good to see you solved the problem, the internet is a wonderful thing.
Jim
Thanks Steve, but I'm not going back to the T-50, it isn't strong enough. Everything OK in Ct?
I was wondering if you might be able to make the trip out to Pete's the weekend of the 14th? (Nov)
I'm on hold waiting on parts but I might give you a call to talk about air conditioning stuff.
Jim
Looking good Jim! I was going to suggest using filler rod, but I see you already figured it out! Are you going to run Freon through that inter-cooler core. That would really cool the intake air charge down. Those intake runners combined with boost and larger displacement, should give you LOTS of low end power. :-)
Bill
Thanks Bill. That's what I'm thinking, you just about can't have too much bottom end grunt. Even with the blown 215 I always wanted more. This should do quite nicely but still breathe well enough to approach 7 grand I'm thinking.
Freon, well yes sort of. I'm thinking more along the lines of propane actually. Yes I know it's flammable, about equivalent to gasoline. Certainly don't want any leaks. But it's an excellent refrigerant and not restricted in any way. Considering that some of the newer and highly touted r134 and r12 replacements are propane based perhaps it's not a bad choice, plus if it gets into the intake it won't create engine problems or turn to poison coming out the exhaust. That's a real consideration on this car, what with the side pipes and all.
But yes, that's the plan. I have a 2-1/2 ton expansion valve on order, that was the largest one carried by 4 seasons. Considering the excess heat of the intake charge that core should handle it. Then I need an appropriately sized compressor. I'm presently looking at the Sanden SD7H15 which has displacements up around 170 cu.in. That should be in the ballpark, obviously the more fluid I can crank through it the better it will cool, provided the condenser is up to the task. What I really need is a chart of A/C compressor displacements. That info is proving hard to mine.
The condenser should be relatively easy since I plan on a radiator somewhat similar to the one we have put on the MGB-Roadmaster and that gives me a very large core area to work with. Then the last critical component is going to be a solenoid valve positioned at the end of the high pressure line to the evaporator. With two of these tied to a relay in OR fashion, the pump will power the intercooler or the evaporator for cabin air. Another simple switch could allow both to be run at the same time but at shared capacity, seems I've heard of a system that might be somewhat similar being used in chebby suburbans for front and rear air systems. (Maybe I should be looking at those compressors too.)
So that's the plan anyway. I can probably set up an output from the Megasquirt to switch on the intercooler any time it's going to be needed. My A/C buddies have some doubts about it, so I'll definitely need to complete the instrumentation package this time and log the results, but with so much to do it'll be hard to get it all done by myself. Anyway, I think it will be effective but just how effective is the real question.
So, waiting on the TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) and a radiator hose neck for the intake. I've begun cutting the parts for the box but can't finish until the TXV gets here. Time to find a solenoid valve as well.
Jim
Oops, miscue there on the displacement. Obviously 170 cu.in. couldn't be right and it isn't, cc's is more like it. So, the big Sanden compressor is right around 10 cu. in. displacement, or using the numbers from the Sanden site, 154.7cc or 9.5 cu.in. By contrast, the Harrison R4 which is short, fat, and should fit more easily in front of the cylinder head, is 10 cu.in. or slightly larger. Perhaps I need to start a new thread.
Jim
Been working on the shop equipment again so that's slowed things down a bit, but I will soon be set up for coolant and that's an important improvement. Anyway the other day I had a little trouble pulling the damper back off the 340 so I smacked it with a mallet and the inertia ring moved. Can't have that, now can we? Doing a little research I found that fluid dampers are all the rage but nobody seems to make them for Buicks, and if I could find them prices are pretty stratospheric. Heck the TA-Performance hot shot dampers are around 4 large. So I got to looking around and found this little jewel on ebay:
fluiddamper.jpg
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290355688580&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:MOTORS:1123
The neat thing about this one, aside from the fact that it bolts to the hub, is that it has a poly-v pulley machined into the outer edge. Well, it has 7 ribs and I need 8, but there is room to cut the next one and I have the equipment to do it. So I bought it. Should get here about the first of the week. Most likely I'll have to make an adapter to match it to the hub of the old damper (minus the inertia ring and rubber gasket) and I'll also probably have to machine away a bunch of the weight of that adapter to match the old external balance weight, and then I'll have to ship it to Dale for a proper balance match. But it will solve two problems at once. A good reliable high performance damper and a drive pulley for the blower. Which I really have to have before I can position the blower on the intake. So for my next trick, (nuthin' up my sleeve...) I need to cobble up a rig to match static balance to the old damper so I can get it close. Stay tuned, boys an' girls!
Jim
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Here we have the new fluid damper with the hub removed, alongside the stock damper. A couple of things might catch your eye. First, there is no way the hub that came with it can be made to work on the Buick engine, and second, there is a serious amount of weight on the Buick damper. (Dale Spooner informed me that it is a 28 oz bobweight) Of that weight only part is incorporated into the stock Buick hub and the rest will have to be supplied by a hub adapter which I will have to make. Secondly, there is more than enough room to cut another groove to enable the use of an 8 groove belt. I have ground the tool for that, determined the spacing at .140" and would have cut it already but I wasn't happy with the run-out on my initial setup. I may try to turn it after the new adapter is in place. But before I can start on the adapter I have to mock up the A/C compressor. Because I am going to try to use the stock compressor mount, that will determine where the belt has to run and the other pulleys will have to be juggled to match it. More later...
Jim
Not as glamorous as making an intake, but I began work on the compressor pulley yesterday.
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But, after cutting down to the root of the v-belt groove I discovered that I was into the cement used to bed in the friction surface and this pulley is now scrap.
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So I need some help. A6 compressors came with different diameter pulleys and I need the largest one I can find. Something where the root of the v-belt groove is close to the diameter of the clutch would be perfect. GM used these on everything for quite a few years as did other manufacturers including Ford, and the displacement/engine revolution was varied by belt drive ratio. So odd as it might sound, a small car or pickup should have a larger pulley.
I found something else interesting in the form of an aftermarket A6 replacement compressor, the Pro6ten made by Old Air Products. http://www.import-car.com/Article/42966/old_air_products_offers_boltin_direct_replacement_for_the_gm_frigidareharrison_a6_compressor.aspx
Said to be 52% lighter than the old A6, this 10 piston replacement makes the expected claims of efficiency, smoothness, etc. But my question of what the displacement is remains so far unanswered and ditto for the poly-v drive pulley. And it's expensive.
So can anyone help out with the pulley?
Jim
Jim,
Specifically, what is it you are looking for? Is this the compressor pulley or something else? What kind of diameter and width are you looking for?
This is the Harrison/Frigidaire A6 compressor, a common sight on GM cars from the 50's into the 80's:
A6.jpg
Next removal of the clutch:
A6clutch.jpg
And finally the part I am looking for, the pulley:
A6pulley.jpg
The sheave of the pulley came in different diameters for different cars, some small for higher speed and more output, and some large to slow the compressor down. That's how they got away with using one pump for all applications. I need a big one.
Jim
OK I got it. It's a tractor application which makes sense. Single seat cabin, 2500 rpm operating speed, need to slow that pump down a lot. The pulley is about 6-3/4" for a 7/16" belt so there should be plenty of meat above the clutch diameter and a smooth cut across at that point should not be a problem. There is plenty of room below that for the 8 belt grooves. So now to just find one. Guess I'll be visiting the local tractor shops.
Jim
Been a lot going on since I last posted. First off, the A/C based IC system has real questionable viability. No real surprise there since Ford had to use a thermal accumulator to make theirs work. The problem is that the heat of evaporation of freon is very low, something like 1/20th of water's. Various other fluids were investigated in terms of phase change temperature, latent heat, freezing point and compatibility with the system materials and after considerable calculation and testing it has been decided that plain old gasoline at atmospheric pressure and 2 gpm flow through the evaporator is the best choice. This means that a good fuel pump will handle circulation and no draw-down and purging will be necessary. OK, that's the good news. Calculations are being checked as we speak but it looks like a workable plan and other details of the system will be described later. Cabin air will be a separate system.
Next, the damper has to be mounted before anything else can be done. So, in the following photo you'll see a balancing tool I made up from bits lying around the shop.
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Assembled it looks like this:
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But needs more room to rotate completely so:
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Here it's mounted in the bench vise. It turns out to be very sensitive and will detect less than 1/8 turn of the screw and very minute angular changes so once dialed in I marked the keyway, drilled and inserted a pin to lock the position. The slight position error that resulted meant that I had to screw a couple of bolts into the damper hub to get back to center. I dare say that when I send the finished part to Dale for checking it should be within grams of proper balance.
So next I'll knock off the inertia ring and begin to turn the adapter out of the large blank of 1018 steel seen above the stock damper in the first shot. That's over $80 worth of round stock, just one example of why custom parts cost so much. Most of it will be whittled away to make an adaptor that will precisely fit the fluid damper to the original hub, and it will also have a ring of holes drilled in the rim of it to trigger the Ford EDIS ignition system and Megasquirt EFI. Quite a bit of work before we're at that point though.
Jim
I got the blank chucked up in the lathe, rough turned, faced, drilled, and cut one counterbore on the back side for the trigger ring. Tomorrow I will try to do some more work on it, the bore for the damper hub and the one for the pilot ring on the face of the hub. First I need to measure the amount of offset weight that is needed. This can be done by placing weights on the threaded rod at the correct distance from center until it is balanced (with the outer balance ring now removed) and then finding the mass of that weight in a common sized material such as round stock. That will tell me how much material will have to be removed to balance the adapter, which in turn will tell me how much material I will have to leave in an area where it can be selectively machined away. It would be far too easy at this point to leave excess metal in the part, but this increases rotating mass and reduces the responsiveness of the engine. Conversely it would make it idle smoother but I'm not after a smooth idle. So light weight is the goal. When completed the adapter should be as light as I can make it and still do it's job. After the bores are cut and all surfaces turned to finish size I will flip the part and turn the pilot for the fluid damper, at which point the lathe work should be done. Then comes drilling the hole patterns for the damper and hub, then trigger holes and balance/lightening holes, and final assembly and fitting. Then it goes to Dale for a final balance. By then I hope to have the pump for the IC ordered and can get back to welding.
Jim
The back side of the adapter ring is done.
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Jim
You insist on making this engine porn.
Motor Porn you asked for, motor porn you shall receive. Let there be MOTOR PORN!
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The attachment holes, timing holes, balance holes, v-grooves and paint are still to come but it's a pretty good look I think.
Enjoy!
Jim
Nice motor. Is it AC or DC? ;)
Now that's just getting toooo-- technical.
Jim
AC/DC.
Dirty deeds.
Done dirt cheap.
Whole Lotta Rosie!
I've now gotten all the mounting holes finished, the v grooves cut, and the timing mark as well. I trimmed a little more off the center boss so that the dampener sits flush with the outer ring. The main pulley is an 8 rib and there is an inner one which is 4 ribs and will drive the alternator, provided I can mount it short enough. I still have to drill the timing holes and mill the slot for the missing tooth (36-1) and right now it's too cold to mess with it. So no photos today, but soon. Dale said he'd just as soon have it in it's unbalanced state so I will send it that way, along with the balancing jig and the old outer balance ring just as a double check. I'll try to finish it up as soon as it warms up a bit.
On a related note, I've ordered a pump for the intercooler. I've gone around and around on this design and all the while I keep spiraling in on it. As it now stands, the working fluid is to be a minimum volume of pentane, pumped at 140 gph through a closed system with an emergency pressure relief valve vented to the fuel tank EFI return line, the pump controlled by a manifold vacuum switch and by a system pressure switch (turns on if system pressure rises). It will have temp sensors at both the IC core and at the condenser and a system pressure gage. The condenser will be a standard A/C condenser, most likely identical to the one that will be used for cabin air.
A possible alternative was to use ammonia as the working fluid and a compressor but I doubt compressor volume would be adequate. However I'm still looking into that as a possibility. The volume of fluid required is about 1/4 of what is needed for pentane but it has to be pumped as a vapor rather than as a liquid due to the pressures involved, largely offsetting ammonia's higher thermal efficiency.
Nothing more yet on the intake as that work has been held up by the dampener and it's relationship to the blower drive pulley but that will be resumed soon. The alternator will need to be as short (front to back) as possible and I'll be looking into the possibility of newer candidates for that as soon as I can. The diameter isn't that much of an issue.
JB
More motor porn for you!
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Above is the set-up I had to cobble together to mill the timing holes (and one slot) in the rim of the damper adapter. Precise, tedious work but a good result.
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And here is the sensor mounted to the timing cover using the fuel pump location. The mount is still a bit clunky and I'll probably round the corners and such while the damper is away being balanced by Dale.
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And here it is assembled. Everything matches up well other then the belt location for the alternator but I'm not done with that and have a couple of ideas yet, if nothing else just move it outboard of the head.
If you can see it, the slot (missing tooth) is at approximately 60* before the sensor. It is actually farther than that since the EDIS will trigger on the leading edge of the hole, but a minimum of 60* will allow the EDIS to advance correctly and the extra can be accounted for in the MegaSquirt timing set-up to put it dead on the money.
And for a (modest?) fee you could have one too! ;-)
JB
Really nice work, Jim!
"And for a (modest?) fee you could have one too! ;-) "
Modest fee? You must really work cheap!
Sometimes Carl, sometimes. ;-)
JB
Jim, nice B&D LED work light. They do well and can serve in an emergency as a reading light. (if we can read) . You do some GOOD work!
Thanks Kelly. Steve D gave me that light. I guess he got tired of the sorry pieces I was trying to use. It really does work great and I use it more now than probably all the rest put together.
Anyway, for your viewing pleasure, I've been a bit busy of late:
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As you can see I've got the box attached to the intake and the top plate mostly completed. Still have to add the sneeze valve at the rear and then it can be welded on.
JB
Boy, You have been busy!
Jim, is there going to be any way to change out the intercooler once the sneeze plate is welded on the rear?
Nice work for sure. if the slam panel on the Roadmaster looks anything near as good we've got a winner for sure. That is awsome fabrication on your intake.
Thanks guys. Bill, the slam panel is 18 ga stainless and looks really great. I had them make up a second one for my car while they were at it so once I mount my radiator I should be able to complete both panels the same and it should fit the Roadmaster just fine. I squared up the intake on the mill and knocked the high spots off the bottom, then turned it over and fly cut the top edges of the box sides so that everything has at least a chance of being square. Once I'm done with the welding I'll get it trued up by the local automotive machine shop and then use whatever gaskets are dictated by the amount of metal they have to remove to get it flat.
That back panel will have to bolt in and I've not quite decided exactly how I'm going to do that part yet, as the coolant lines come out sideways. But by the time I get the rest of the parts made back there I should have it figured out. Lots of times I make this stuff up as I go along.
JB
Jim, obviously JBR is not included in your work sessions! GD must also wait for his time.
Have a great day!
Thanks Kelly. As for the JBR, I did my drinking when I was younger and these days that's just for special occasions and not much of it then. Seems I've darned near worn out my alcohol regulator and I've got to handle it delicately if I expect it to last me. So I'm a little more careful than I once was.
Well, I've been busy. No pictures this time since there's not much more to look at than last go-around but the key difference is that all the welding is done except for the thermostat housing, which I scrapped on the first attempt. Don't know where I went wrong, it just didn't come out like I expected. So I'll have to make that piece over and weld that on and then move on to the last of the machine work. I ordered a plate for the rear cover and when that's done it'll have an integrated hook-up for the lines and the core, which will be attached and then slid into the housing and bolted shut. I still need to decide how I'm going to keep the core from bouncing up and down but I have several options there, it's just a matter of choosing wisely.
Then, I've decided to make a large 45* cutter to mill the port flanges on the Bridgeport so I ordered some 4" round stock. It will be a type of fly-cutter with a single long edge tool bit. Not the easiest tool to make but I've done this before so I'm not too concerned, though it would be handy to have the surface grinder up and running for this job.
Yeah, that's the Blackwood way. Learned from early childhood back on the farm. In order to get what we want first we invariably have to make or fix something, or both. I'm pretty used to it.
JB
Haven't posted anything on here for awhile, enough time to make a little visible progress so I decided an update was in order. Here are a couple shots of the intake system pretty much as it stands. The rear cover is made but needs some sort of retainer to clamp the tubes in and the external fittings. I also have to fit an IAC valve and filter, attach the fuel rail, locate fittings for the temp probes and a few other details like milling the head flanges. But it's progress.
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JB
On the path to the 340 install I found I needed a short alternator. Nobody makes one, so I took on the job, and now having just finished up with it I thought it only proper to pass along what I learned. Having disassembled 3 alternators to compare component parts, (a Denso, a Delcotron, and a late Ford unit) I found numerous differences and determined that the shortest design would use the rotor and stator of the Delcotron, the brush holder of the Denso, the rear bearing design of the Ford, and a few more wrinkles thrown in for good measure, as well as an entirely new back cover, which was made by welding up pieces and machining where needed. The finished unit can be found in this thread:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,16164
All possible extra length was removed. The rotor and stator were shifted forwards and one slip ring was cut away from the rotor, placing the 2nd brush in the end of the shaft where it grounds to a copper plate retained by the stainless end cover. Replacing the needle bearing cup with a sealed ball bearing also reduced the length, but perhaps the greatest gain was in relocating the regulator/rectifier package to the firewall. The stator produces 3 phase alternating current, just like you would use in an industrial shop and has a 3 wire output which goes directly to a rectifier package. I haven't decided exactly what components to use there yet, but I plan an upgrade from those used in the Delcotron as they were not reliable enough to suit me. The regulator and harness connector used in the Denso is compact and of a convenient size and configuration so I will probably use that, meaning that my existing connector in the car will simply plug right in. Some wires will have to be re-routed and 3 moderately heavy and 1 light wires run from the alternator to the control package, but there are a number of additional potential benefits with this layout. A small electronics pancake fan can be placed under the control package and switched on based on heat. With removal of these parts it is likely that the external fan on the alternator can be minimized or possibly even eliminated altogether, allowing the unit to be shortened even more, by probably a quarter inch or more.
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JB
Today is a significant milestone, as I did final assembly of the intake, intercooler and blower to the block.
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I have material en-route to make the water pump pulley so that is probably next and then perhaps I can look at the A/C pump. There are a lot of details yet but getting past this one was a biggie.
JB
Jebus! That's a work of art. Nice work. The custom alternator looks right at home there.
Jim, your workmanship is truly impressive - here's hoping that we get to see the results in Indy.
Thanks guys. I'm expecting to have it at Indy though it might not be running by then. I still have some major work to do such as building the throttle body/Enderlie scoop/air filter housing and completing the transmission adapter and that is aside from the control electronics and changes to the plumbing and bodywork so I'll be doing well to get it on the road by summer's end. But, since I've not been able to bring it for about 3 years now it'll be there, running or not, as long as I have the driveline installed.
JB
Keep it up, pretty soon the whole car will be "built from scratch"! ;)
Looking good Jim! Is that a Ford IAC motor on the back of the intercooler box?
Bill
Yep, it's one of the newer fat body ones so I'm hoping it will have a nice fast response time. It will get a K&N style breather filter on the tube sticking up from it for the idle air.
JB
Water pump pulley is finished.
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JB
Jim, that is just too neat. Great workmanship on the entire engine package, can't wait to see in "in the flesh" at Indy, running or not. Your earlier blower setup was great, but this one is far better.
Is there a backside idler planned in the alternator drive or does the alt mount have an adjusting strap?
Thanks Bill. Next is the pan spacer/girdle and then the tranny adapter and once that is done it can go in the car so I think there's time to get it ready enough to bring to Indy. I need to find out which Camaro the fans we used in the Roadmaster came out of though. Graham, the alternator is on an adjustable mount but I haven't made the adjustment link yet as it will very likely attach to an idler pulley bracket. The main blower belt will drive the water pump and the A/C pump which I don't have yet, so there's a bit more of the belt routing to sort out. I may not get that part done until after the engine is in the car though so the main drive belt may not be in place by July.
There are a number of expensive parts yet to buy and I've broken the bank buying the transmission and it will likely take me the rest of the summer to cover that. But I've probably got enough work to do on the car to keep me busy until winter at least so it should all work out eventually. I'm planning for a roll-out next spring as the most likely scenario.
JB
Jim,
The dual fan setup came out of a 2002 Z28. You could probably find the same setup in years 1998 to 2002 Camaros.
Thanks Calvin. Looks like new ones can be had for about $150. Not bad.
More parts:
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Need to make some spacers and washers and I'll be able to button up the engine.
JB
Jim, Are you going to put straps across the main studs to tie them in ?
No Jim, if I planned to do that I'd make up another plate and use the first one as a spacer to clear the main caps. It would need that for the longer studs I'm pretty sure. It's not a bad idea but would raise the engine. Anyway I don't think something like that is even helpful until you go over 500 hp which I'm not planning to do.
JB
"...until you go over 500 hp which I'm not planning to do"
Oh?
Let's see 340 CI + supercharger = <500Hp? I'd be real disappointed!
Just to be on the safe side and not guilty of making inflated claims, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the car will make 300 hp. The stock 4bbl 340 engine was 260 hp so I should be pretty safe with that number, and anything over 300 hp in an MGB is, well, just a little insane. Stock torque though was 365, and that's a pretty big number. Mine runs the '64 300 heads which have smaller ports and numbers for the 300 were 210 hp and 310 torque, so I'll be relying on the blower mainly to boost flow through the ports. Now if I had a set of the new TA heads on it I'd be right there with 'ya, but as it is, I'm only looking for a good reliable 300 with an extended redline.
JB
Today was the day for bolting the engine and tranny together and setting them in the engine bay. Assembly went smoothly without a hitch, but unfortunately fitting the engine in did not. The stock 340 motor mounts will not work, no surprise there as they are considerably larger than their 215 counterparts, and the steering shaft and heater box all cleared, but I had to cut a fixturing lug off the block just like we did on the 455. The motor sat too high so I unbolted the steering rack. It will have to be moved down just like in the Roadmaster, although I believe moving the cone can be avoided, and I'll have to make up a set of front engine mounts like what we used there. So the good news is that there is progress, the bad is that the car will not be coming to the show this year. There is just too much to get done in time to even be able to trailer it. Motor mounts, transmission crossmember, rack mounts, crossmember notch, rack pinion extension, new rack boots, and waiting on parts. Well, those are the breaks sometimes.
Here's a shot of the setup I used for dialing in the adapter ring to mark the bellhousing holes:
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And here is a shot of the completed adapter including the converter disc, which was cut from 1/2" plate and has helicoils for the flex plate bolts:
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The next shot is of the engine and 8 speed automatic assembled and ready to go in the car:
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And then a shot of it sitting in the engine bay.
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JB
Wow! Great work Jim.
How is Matthew getting along with his ankle?
Still hobbled a bit, but there's a real good chance he'll be out of the boot by the V8 meet. He was quite a bit of help despite that.
A few more photos:
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Also you may wonder how the blower will affect vision out the front? Not that much.
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JB
Outstanding Jim, great fit and good packaging. I can see how your car and the Roadmaster match up in the radiator area. Your work on the intake is just amazing.
Jim,
what happened to Mahtew?
You and Edith into child abuse now? LOL.
Steve
Yeah, the little punk got uppity ;-)
No, really it was a baseball accident, sliding into 3rd base. He was safe, but had to get a pinch runner. He's walking on it pretty good now. Really just a nasty sprain with some mild damage to the growth plate. He's been a good sport about it but is getting pretty tired of it by now.
JB
Sorry to hear about the accident. Glad he was safe though.
Steve
Remember when Dave Concepcion slid into third and pulled the bag out of the ground? He was out for most of the season I think. Maybe Matthew can learn to slide like Pete Rose ..Head First.
Cool pool cue cane.
Great work!
Seeing your knowledge in machine work I was wondering if you ever went onto Practical Machinist forum. Great bunch of info there if ever needed, from antiquated to present moshinery and many articles/ manuals/ parts lists/ links. Again, Great Work, I hope to see a video of that beast tearing up the asphalt soon!
John
Half way done with the engine mounts:
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They are 10 ga. stainless, this is before doing any polishing. The frame rails need to be modified for the attachment points and then on to the tranny mount. The driveshaft coupler came in but I haven't taken a photo of it. It's a large and very beefy rubber coupler connected to a tube. I can probably slide a cut off driveshaft over it and weld the two together. No worries about phasing, neither end moves.
JB
Below are progress photos on the engine and rack mounts. As mentioned the rack had to be lowered, and the same process will be used as on the MGB-Roadmaster but with some discrete improvements. The cutout in the crossmember is wider to ease rack placement. Motor mounts are a stock off the shelf item, and the upper brackets are made from thinner material, stainless being used instead of steel.
Looking then at the first photo the old mounts have been removed and cuts made with two different sized holesaws to begin the cutout.
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In the second photo connecting cuts have been made with the angle grinder and zip blade and the cutout removed. The zip blade is a very handy tool but it must be used cautiously. For a zip blade, you might as well be made of butter. Accept that going in and never forget it.
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In the third shot the cuts and remains of old mounts have been cleaned up,
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and finally, in the last shot the new parts have been fitted and are ready to be welded into place as soon as the paint has been stripped from the weld bead areas. In the past I have done a lot of welding over paint, rust and scale and some processes such as stick and gas weld are tolerant of those practices. However, MIG and TIG are not tolerant in the least, and recognizing that I now have a greater appreciation for clean weld prep for any process. Stick will be used for the crossmember, simply because it is an easy process with superior penetration. I haven't decided on the other parts yet.
JB
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Speaking of being made of butter, how is your thumb doing?
Not well actually, I smacked it with a visegrip yesterday and had to put more superglue on it and the damaged area has spread out a bit. Really I should have had it cleaned out and stitched up but a bit late for that now. It's going to take a long time to heal.
JB
Jim,
I think you ought to have a doctor look at it anyway. You have two thumbs but they are not redundant - you need them both!
I have a couple of nine-fingered friends because they thought it would "be ok."
Thanks for the concern, and if I was a Senator or an illegal immigrant that's just what I'd do. But the cost of health care today just scares me. Somehow we're going to pay for that. Matthew's sprained ankle cost well over $1000, just for an ankle sprain! Used to be we'd just wrap an ace bandage around it and go on. I can't afford that kind of nonsense, how can anyone else?
Anyway, there is no sign of infection, and no pain other than when I whacked it with the visegrips. It doesn't exactly look good, but it doesn't look dangerous either so I'm going to wait and see. If any symptoms develop I'll have it looked at. What's a doctor going to do anyway except prescribe a round of antibiotics to scour away all my good intestinal bacteria?
So on to friendlier topics. I cleaned away paint and rust and began welding in the motor mounts. The tubes are in (sorry no picture) and the top plates are clamped in place ready for weld. I used the MIG on the tubes and it worked fine but it really doesn't do so well on overhead welding. I expect I'll use it on the outside and rear seams of the top plates but may use the gas torch on the inside and front seams. The MIG works well in inside corners but not so good on outside corners, which is where the torch really shines, so that is probably the best way. I also cut the slam panel to match the one on the Roadmaster and came up with a plan on the transmission mount.
JB
Finished the welding and clean up, except for the rack mounts which will come after the new transmission crossmember is in place.
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Next some good primer,
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a bit of rattle can paint that is a reasonably close match,
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and there it is. Front mounts completed. Time to raise the lift and go underneath.
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Looking good - Yer movin' right along, Jim!
.....the Dragon beckons in less than 10 months..........
Yep, and that might be a bit of a puzzle if everything gets done. No need to worry about that yet. Anyway the tranny cross member is done.
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I spent a little time on the driveshaft, it has a humongous rubber donut on the front that there's just barely enough room for. But the problem I'm having is with the universal joint fitting the chevy yoke on the other end. Hopefully I can figure out what is up with that tomorrow.
JB
Edit: Actually, what I meant to say is that I've pulled out all the stops to get enough progress on this car so that I can take it down off the rack and start work on the MGB-Roadmaster. Progress is good, and I'm now far enough along to mount the steering rack, which is the one piece needed before the car can be moved. However, I also intend to sort out what's needed on the driveshaft and attach the lower radiator mount. Then I'll be happy with switching to the other car and can get back on mine once the sheet metal work is all finished, and maybe some fiberglass too. I expect that to happen in a couple days.
J
Jim,
Lookes really good. Can't wait to see it in the flesh in Sept.
Steve
Thanks Steve. Well, progress has stopped for now. I made up the rack mounts and when I went to fit the rack it became all too clear that the firewall cone is going to have to be lowered at least an inch. Consequences of lowering the engine I suppose. So at that point I decided I wasn't ready to begin that mod and took the car off the rack. I also had fitted up the driveshaft and marked it, boxed it up to send away for modification and then decided to get a 2 piece Lexus driveshaft first and see if I can use that. It has a big nut and tapered fitting over a spline, meaning it can potentially be collapsed to install, pulled back out and locked up solid. Real handy if you have a fixed differential.
So now the MGB-Roadmaster is up on the lift and work on this project will mostly be at a standstill until that one is squared away. In the meantime maybe I'll happen across some parts that have gone into hiding.
JB
Lower radiator support is completed.
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I think this radiator, with the transmission cooler fittings, is a slightly better choice than the one we used in the Roadmaster, as the side tanks have a better shape and more clearance for things like the bumper mount bolts. Anyway, it looks like there will be just about enough room for the A/C and intercooler condensers in the front.
JB
Firewall mods are now complete and the rack is mounted.
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Thanks to Ted Lathrop (Fast Cars Inc.) I now also have a set of 375 lb springs on the coil-over rear shocks, so, letting the car down to check it's stance it is very clear that I will need to go to a late model front cross member. In contrast to the MG-Roadmaster which uses the same size tires all the way around, this car will use the 315/35-17 rear tires which are about 26" diameter. The fronts are presently 24" and to go significantly larger I'll need to increase the distance between the hubs and the headers, as at full compression the existing tires come very close. So, a late model x-member it is then, and probably a little larger on the tire diameter as well. Maybe Pete has one...
The increase in ride height will make the car much easier to get into and out of and I don't think it'll hurt handling too much, considering that the stance is 6" wider than stock.
JB
If all goes to plan, by the end of this week I will have in my hands a pair of very special triple convolute suspension air bags that are supposed to fit in the space presently occupied by the original MGB front coil springs. This is something I've spent several years looking for and I've finally found a source, though delivery isn't real fast. So I'm keeping the old fingers crossed.
This modification should allow infinite height adjustment, and work just fine with the existing crossmember. In fact it should work fine with either early or late units, although for a given ride height the early unit should give a lower roll center.
In addition, I will be adding a spacer block under the front pivot mount for each of the lower control arms. This will give additional clearance between the steering rack and the lower control arm, and should slightly reduce the caster. If it has any effect on camber at all it may increase it very slightly.
So that's what's in the works right now. I also need to acquire some sheet metal and replace the missing bits in the front of the inner wings but right now I'm mostly excited about the air bags.
JB
I'll try to take some photos to post later on today but I've made some good progress. First about the spacer blocks. This turned out to be a bit of a surprise, as I had to space down the front pivot farther than I had expected. A full 1-1/4", and on the left side I still had to bend the upper flange of the control arm a bit for good clearance of the boot. I used a 1/2" spacer on the rear pivot so there is 3/4" of stagger. At some point I'll get it on an alignment rack and see how much difference that makes in the caster, but it looks like the camber change under suspension compression should be helpful. I used 1/2" and 1/4" spacers and stacked them to get the needed result. We will need to look at this on the MG-Roadmaster to make sure we don't have a problem there as well. The rack was not moved down as much on it and is positioned level, whereas on this one the left side had to dip a bit lower than the right side. RB cars have the rack oriented similarly, though in a higher location. It's possible that we may be OK on the other car, I'm pretty sure we checked it.
The spindle arms have been modified to correct for the new rack location by bending. Caution: do not attempt this if you are not at least somewhat familiar with metalurgy. Bending was accomplished with heat, followed by slow cooling to control crack propagation, then bead blasting and close magnified inspection. This gave satisfactory results. The end of the arm had to be lowered about 1 inch.
The triple convolute air springs finally came and will be a good match and line up better in a couple of ways than the double convolute ones. I will add a pilot to engage the upper spring locating cup in the crossmember, and there is a spot on the crossmember that could use some touch up with an angle grinder. This is a flat plate under the bump stop, the edge of which intrudes slightly. Shouldn't be difficult, and then the new air springs will pop right in I believe. More later.
JB
Air springs are installed. There is a little fine tuning to do but I think they'll work just fine. Initially I pressurized them to 100 lbs on the lift then let the car down. That made the front end ride too high so I let a little air out. Bouncing on the radiator support with my full weight, I concluded that the stiffness is pretty similar to the stock spring rates. I think it may be a bit more progressive, stiffer as it compresses but at this point it's hard to say, but my shocks are set pretty stiff so there should be plenty of range for adjustment. Of course, height is infinitely adjustable and easy to do. Here is the as-installed photo, you'll notice the schraeder valve for easy adjustment of pressure.
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Next photo, the springs with valves and centering cups installed, pressurized to 40 psi and ready to fit into place. Once the top is centered, pressure is released and the upper convolute holds the spring up while the pan is installed. The only modification needed to make this work is seen below.
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Here the lip on the crossmember is ground back to clear the top convolute. This is easily done with a 4-1/2" angle grinder. The edge is ground back all the way to the aluminum block and then smoothed and rounded so that there are no sharp edges to abrade the bellows.
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Finally, in this last shot you can see how the groove between the convolute clears the lower part of the snubber bracket and the freshly relieved edge clears the bulge.
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The whole process of swapping out the springs can be done in a couple hours or less, depending on how fussy you are and how fast you work. With the kits received ready to install, doing it in an hour would not be unreasonable. Cost will be more than a set of new coil springs of course, but there is more functionality too. If anyone wants a set I can fix you up. If there's any significant demand I'll make it a standard product line and talk to Curtis about setting up an advert on this site.
JB
Jim, the air springs look neat, nice installation there. As for the A arm spacers, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you can essencially tilt the A arm a the inner pivot point without modifying the lower trunion on the king pin or the upper trunion to compensate for the non parallel axis. Seems like in a B or even my Midget suspension you essencially have 4 parallel pivots, inner A frame, lower trunion bolt, upper trunion bolt, and upper shock pivot that have to be parallel or you'd induce a lot of stress and friction.
Right, check out the last post on the A-arm spacer thread in the suspension forum.
JB
wow, that does not look right and as far as I know you will need to lower the top fulcrum the same as you did the lower, I would not suggest doing what you did, car is going to have excessive positive camber that will need to be compensated somehow, and the castor is going to be screwed, looks like a mess to me
This should properly be in the A-arm spacer thread, really I was posting those photos for the air springs. But, here's the latest:
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Looking closely you can see the mounting points are compensated for camber, and I expect a 3 to 4 degree caster reduction as well which should work very well with the wider tires. The forward pivot is positioned outward slightly and the rear one spaced inward by the same amount, moving the bottom of the kingpin back, the difference in block thicknesses allowing for that swing. (Trunion is rubber mounted of course)
The net effect should be no static camber gain or loss, increased camber on compression, and additional steering rack clearance. However, moving the pivot point downward appears to cause camber gain on sag, something I'll have to look at more closely before I can approve the mod. Worst case, I may have to cut the rack mounts off and relocate them a bit. I'll probably run the wheel up and down tomorrow and measure what it does.
JB
Progress has been slow, partly due to a painful decision to re-locate the steering rack mounts. I was not happy with it sitting at a slight angle (even though the RB cars do also) and even less happy with the lack of clearance for the LCA. So I broke off the old ones, tearing holes in the crossmember in the process. At least that proved the welds were strong enough. The point at which these mounts attach is at an angle so I cut the sides off some channel iron, giving a pair of wedges which matched the angle and provided the desired thickness to move the mounts forward. Turns out I had used spacers under the mounts for the MG-Roadmaster but hot having it here for comparison I had inconveniently forgotten that detail. This spacer also caused the rack to be moved upwards as it moved forwards, giving a much more satisfactory position and attitude for the steering rack itself. So I welded it.
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The spindle arms will have to be adjusted to match of course, but LCA clearance should now be adequate regardless of what I do with the LCA relocation blocks. I also put in the lines for the air bags.
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They should be well protected from road debris and abrasion.
This does cause a small problem with the oil filter however as it now interferes with the steering rack. That could be fixed by moving the engine forward about 1/2" and if I had not already located the engine mounts I would probably go that route, But since I have, I have another solution in mind. With the frame extensions I should have plenty of room to use a later Buick oil pump cover which angles the filter forward. I just need to get one. So that goes on the to-do list, along with getting new panels to finish up the front of the inner fenders. Hopefully I have a lead on the latter. Then maybe I can get started on the new hinges for the bonnet and other things. In the meantime, Townsend looms and there is much to do to get there with the MG-Roadmaster.
JB
Good news. Swapping in a spare set of steering arms it looks like the spacers moving the LCA inner pivots downwards are a pretty close match to the distance the rack was moved down so an unmodified set of arms should work out just about right. Very helpful. Of course this also means that if you space down your inner pivots you have to either move your rack or bend your arms.
A source has been found for the missing body panels so within a few weeks I hope to complete that part of the metal work, and it also looks like I may have found a lower pump housing to try. If it works out I hope to finish up the front end work fairly quickly. Adding a sway bar can come later.
JB
Jim, you've went Hi Tech, in a good way,on much of this build, have you considered dynamic control of the bag pressures ? Of course, meaning anti-dive and roll ? Great work, roverman.
Haven't given it much thought Art, though there is always room for improvement. After I've gotten it back on the road and have driven it for awhile I will probably give it some more thought though since it wouldn't be too hard to do.
JB
Bill Young, If you're reading this you'd be proud of me. The following photos show the front sections of the inner fenderwells welded in place and as Bill knows I'd been having a tough time getting any kind of usable welds out of my Snap-On mig welder. But, as I had finally used up the last of the shield gas and wire I made a couple changes. First I bought a 12 lb roll of .023" wire, which my welder feeds much more reliably as it just handles the bigger roll better, but the big change was to use a different gas mix. You see, I bought the mig before I got my TIG welder and wanted to try using it to weld aluminum. So I bought as bottle of straight argon, reasoning that results with aluminum wire would be better. Well that never worked out at all, and with the argon the results on steel also sucked. I even went so far as to have the welder checked out by a professional welder repairman. So not too surprisingly, now that I'm feeding it standard mig mix it's doing a fairly respectable job. Doubtless not as pretty as Bill's work, but definitely good enough to mostly replace the use of my gas torch on sheet metal.
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In the first photo you may notice the use of a Buick V6 "Metric" oil filter mount which angles the filter in a favorable direction for the wide radiator frame mod. However, I set the engine back pretty far and will need extra clearance for the standard V6 filter, even more for a standard diameter filter if there is one available to match the metric mount. So a notch will have to be added for that, and clearances provided on the sides for the radiator itself.
Oh, and I've decided I don't like the lowering blocks for the LCAs and instead will design a clearanced and reinforced front arm for the spring pan, making four of them as I do so I can sent a pair to Max for the MG-Roadmaster which shares this car's geometry. At some point I still intend to mock up a measuring jig to look at some geometry changes but first I think I want to get the car running again. Stay tuned.
JB
Looks good Jim. I didn't know that the welder was giving you trouble though. I've always used a mix for my MIG machine that was 75% Argon and 25% CO2 and had pretty good results. I reserve the pure Argon for my TIG welder. I'm still running .035" wire, but need to get some smaller wire for the body work on the MGA. 35 is fine for chassis work and the heavier stuff, but the smaller wire is better for sheet metal. Lately I've been practicing my TIG welding and really like the results. Someday I hope to be able to do aluminum work like you and Gary do. Right now I'm getting better on steel though. Found my main problem was that I couldn't really see the arc because I wasn't wearing my reading glasses under my helmet. Being able to focus on the arc made a ton of difference. I was able to weld a -12 steel AN fitting to a thin wall tube this morning without burning any holes so I was quite proud of myself after that. LOL
Amazing what a difference the reading glasses make isn't it? But be careful. I used a die grinder with a carbide bur wearing reading glasses and ended up getting steel bits dug out of my eyes. Bad thing was, I have a good full face shield that would have prevented it and it never even occurred to me to put it on. Some days we're just not even close to being as smart as we think we are I guess. That's a pretty good trick on the -AN fitting though. Two hints that can help. Rig up a way to back shield your welds, say by putting a "T" on your gas line to the torch and running a small hose to the back side. This will pay huge dividends by making your welds look purty on both sides. (I haven't set mine up that way yet but will next time I'm using it.) Secondly don't get in a hurry. Most problems with TIG are caused by too much heat. You can always add more heat but too much is hard to correct. The good welders I've watched always brace their forearms and minimize movement at the weld point. A foot controlled rotary table is a wonderful thing to have. I've accumulated some pieces but have yet to build one.
Last night I made some cuts and bends to allow the big radiator to fit. I'll be welding those up next and grinding down the weld beads. Add a pair of flat panels on the sides, and then a tight compound curve for radiator hose clearance. You'll never guess what I found for that piece... an MGB bumper overrider. Have to bend and trim it a little but I'm pretty sure it'll work. Photos in another day or so.
JB
Let me help you old fellers out. Stick these on the back side of your safety glasses, welding helmet, etc.
http://optx2020.com/p-20-hydrotac-stick-on-lenses-for-safety-wear.aspx
Much cheaper thru Amazon.com or other sources.
Sounds like a good idea Carl. Have you tried them?
Here are some more photos. The bumper overrider idea didn't work out so well. Too deep at the end and a bit too heavy, so I formed up some sheet metal to work. I think I'm ready to mount the radiator and fans now, once I do a little more painting. Made enough clearance for a fat filter too.
JB
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Jim, I don't recognize the harmonic dampener, looks"aftermarket ? Share ? Thanks, roverman.
Sure Art.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,274,page=12
JB
Hey Jim,
Cars lookin good.
FWIW Miller offers magnifying lenses that fit into your welding helmet. Many different styles and magnifications.
They are a great help for us more "experienced" individuals
.
Cheers
Fred
QuoteSounds like a good idea Carl. Have you tried them?
Nope. Don't quite need them. I use 1.0 readers for very small print.
I did get a set of these for Robin to use behind her torching glasses. They are like the bottom half of bifocals. The pic shows the case. The lens is a half moon shape.
http://www.amazon.com/OPTX-20-Stick-Bifocals-2-00/dp/B000W7HQCQ
Fred's suggestion from Miller would be a better choice for a welding helmet. The stick on bifocals from Amazon would be better for safety glasses.
Jim, I took a "read". Somewhere-back there, you mentioned a Fluid Dampener ? Is that cast iron hub going to last ? I've modified smaller dia ones,(F.D's) from sbc's, to fit our motors. Nice work. roverman.
Should be fine Art, not much stress on it I think. Didn't see any real need to go massive there. The worst loading is the blower and the biggest stress is the harmonic impulses. It's certainly not overkill but I think it'll do.
I'll check out those lenses next time I go to the welding supply, maybe they'll have some I can look at.
This LCA mod has been kicking my a$$. The clearance cutout is pretty huge. After 3 different approaches failed I decided to try something entirely different. Instead of trying to reinforce the front arm of the LCA I started thinking in terms of enclosing the rack, meaning visualizing the clearance space needed and once I did that a picture started to take shape. The rack, boot, and clearance forms a tubular space and a 3-1/2" tube can easily enclose that, centered on the rack, with room to spare, and intersect the LCA forward arm in appropriate areas for welding and reinforcement. Slice off the upper half of the tube to allow articulation, round the corners and such to make it look presentable and I think I'm there. So I ordered some tubing. Next week we'll see how it all works out. It will definitely look unusual, but I think the strength will be there without adding much weight.
It's been a rough week. I've had a very few small successes but overall it's been one of those days where you wish you could just start over... or not, and a week of it, and there's no reason for it. Maybe tomorrow will be better. Anyway it'll pass eventually. I probably need to get out more.
JB
I'm Back! The LCA's are finished and installed on the car, see the Roadmaster thread for photos and details, same approx. date.That worked out very well and even looks good. The airbag people sent me some smaller bags and I'm test fitting them on the car but it'll take a lot more air pressure so time will tell how that works out, for now I'm thinking the original bags will be the way to go but we'll see, this option may be useful. From there I moved on to the headers, trimmed and rewelded the port flanges to match the 340 and welded on some pieces I made up for port EGT probes, drilled and tapped those to 1/8 NPT and then bead blasted the headers. But first I had to make this dust sucker for the blasting cabinet from an old dryer fan and parts I had lying around:
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...and naturally it turned out that most of my beads were as light as the dust so they got sucked out too. Have to get some bigger beads. Along about that time the house AC quit and all of those hard to find bits and hard to figure out details also seemed to come home at the same time so as you can imagine I've been a little busy. Did the AC install myself and the house now has a wonderful coolness factor, plus a little side benefit is that my office now has a nice little window unit that keeps it nice and cool. I'm really loving that! At the same time I was running conduit and 4 ga wire to a sub panel to power the old house oven, getting some ceramic header coating ordered (went with Techline) and finding insulation to make an oven extender box. About that time I figured out I also need a vibratory tumbler so I went and dug a 55 gallon drum out of the shed along with some conveyer belting to pad the inside. Next project coming right up! Wonder if pea gravel will work for a polishing media?
Meantime since I was looking around for something to do to relieve the boredom, I pulled the hubs and rotors off the MG and redrilled them for a Chevy pattern, along with the spare tire:
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That worked out so well that I decided to leave the brakes alone for now. They are plenty lighter due to the new lightening holes where the Ford stud pattern went and new brakes after all, so the new Outlaw calipers can wait. Interesting though that the outlaw calipers fit the Mustang rotors. They are 24mm thick. Maybe by the time I wear out the Stang brakes again 24mm scalloped rotors will be available. But Lordy them things is heavy! Just the brackets to match the MG spindles weigh as much as the Outlaw calipers!
There's no rush. I decided the things that don't need upgraded right now can wait. Much more important to get the things done that're keeping the car off the road. Driveshaft, shifter, fuel rail and then the last really difficult piece, the air inlet and throttle body. (that's not including a new hinge assembly for the tilt front end, and I'll likely go with hydraulics on that) That will be a challenge but having done one already I have some ideas, and I have better equipment to work with too. The plan is for three main inline butterflies and below that two very small ones to be run by an actuator of some sort for idle air control and possibly throttle blip on downshift. Part of the challenge is going to be deciding how large to make these two small throttles and how to construct them. More on that later, any ideas gratefully accepted.
JB
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Out of curiosity, why did you use the triple bags rather than the conventional double bags?
They are taller mainly. Also the crease lines up pretty well with the mount for the bump stops so a little less grinding is needed to fit them in. But really just for a better fit.
JB
Are they smaller diameter than the double bags?
No, I'm sure they are the same. I've had both here and the diameter difference would be pretty minimal. I am experimenting with a smaller diameter bag but it requires twice as much air pressure to carry the weight. 150+ psi takes a pretty good compressor, so I'm not sure they will make the cut. You can find 80 psi shop air just about anywhere.
JB
Ordered the wheels two days ago. I'm still suffering sticker shock and buyer's remorse. Geez I hope that goes away soon. They'll be here in 3 weeks. 17 x 11 on the back and 17 x 8-1/2 on the front. Weld S71.
JB
Cool! Black or Chrome?
Buyers remorse and sticker shock both at the same time.
Hmmm.
The doctor orders a strict diet of steak and scotchy scotch until the symptoms subside.
Cheers
Fred
Those are really going to look great Jim, can't wait to see the car finished with the new blower system and IRS.
Well Fred, I just overloaded on murderburger and oreo blizzard ice cream cake, is that close enough?
The wheels are polished, they are the "high pad" version which gives more brake clearance and has kinda curved spokes since they came the closest to my ideal offset. 43mm offset on the rear and 24 on the front. Anyway it'll make things a lot easier when I go to fit up the light weight brakes in front. So now I get to sweat worrying that the offset is going to be right. It might not be that big a deal, except that they cost almost twice what I paid for the car. OTOH, factor in inflation and maybe they cost less than the car. I can't figure out if that is good or bad. I don't know what the weight is, I forgot to ask. But they should be pretty light. Regardless, I figured this'd be my last chance before tax refunds so I'd better go for it. Edith took it pretty well. Did you ever notice that women are thoroughly confusing creatures?
JB
If you feel better Jim, then the RX is on the money.
Right there with you on the confusing creatures.
Taking the lovely Lynne to France next spring for one of her culinary courses. Or she's taking me, I'm not sure.
She said "we'll be near Italy maybe you should stop by the Ducati factory again and pick out a little souvenir".
I said that I have enough T shirts and key chains.
She said " I was thinking more like a new bike".
I said ??????????????????
I love that woman.
Cheers
Fred
Jim
Once you install those wheels, buyers remorse will just fade away. Should look pretty good!
Bill
Bill, surely you're not saying it'll be with me for 3 weeks while I wait for them to get here? ;-) Actually Edith's birthday cake helped quite a bit... I ate most of it.
Well, it'll be nice to get the right wheels and tires on the car. That will probably help me stay motivated to work on it and to find inexpensive ways around what still needs to be done. Heck, it's already motivated me to find a way to hook up power to my shop oven without spending any more. Sometimes a fresh look at things is all you need to see a clear path. Once I realized that the only thing the sub panel really needed to power right now is the oven, I was able to grab a 60 amp breaker slated for a future improvement, slap it in the main panel, and voila! The oven works!
I've been sandblasting the headers and they are coming out good. The coarse blasting sand is taking off the old coating pretty well, feathering the edges where it doesn't, and leaving a good surface for adhesion of the new coating. But it takes time. I've also been grinding down the welds where I can reach them. So far I have one small hole that needs welded up. Not bad for 25 year old headers, but naturally it's in the collector's center seam between the tubes. I think I can reach it with the mig but there couldn't be a much harder spot to repair. I may try that this afternoon or tomorrow if I get the chance. I also realized that I don't necessarily have to have the new front tires right away. I have some 225/45-17's that I could use short term. They are old and hard and a little small but have adequate tread. But then, maybe I'll get tires for my birthday! And even if not it'll give me a decent chance to look and see if a 265 might be a better choice than the 245s I've been planning to use. I hate to give up any width and the old size was 265/50-14 but they'd be a little taller. Which might end up looking OK.
In a way it's a lot like when I bought the transmission. I may be a little miserable for the next few months but that will pass and I'll be glad I did it.
JB
About 3 decades ago Dan B made a deal with Harry Johnston for some LBC parts, and though I always knew Harry to be more than fair, he got Dan to agree to sand blast an old porch glider that his wife's family had given them. You know the type, sheet metal, floral pattern in the back and seat. wraparound arms and straps to hold it up, 30 gazzillion coats of white paint, and of course, rust.
About 3 years and several tons of sand later, Dan brought it back saying he'd done the very best he could, and really he had. But when at the end of the day you see about one square foot cleared its sorta tough going.
That's about the way I'm feeling with these headers right now. On the good side, I did at least find out why the coating failed. Somebody left rust on the headers when they were coated the first time. I'll not bother naming names because it was 25 years ago and things change, but I can see obvious proof of just how important it is to get to bare metal. The sand I'm using is coarser than recommended and that's a good thing because I'm rapidly turning it to dust. But I'm closing in on the last spots on one header and am pretty far along on the other one too. And I still have more fresh sand. I'm not sure how long it'll take to finish because at this point I'm turning the sand to dust so fast the dust sucker can't keep up so I get a few seconds where I can see and then it all goes cloudy. The coating is darned close to the same color as the bare steel, so I've taken to making stripes on it with a red fat tip sharpie. Many many load/unload cycles. Tried black but just didn't get enough contrast. The red seems to be working, I'll know more on the next unload. Put a new window in the blaster and that helped quite a bit. So anyway the work continues.
JB
"Wow" brings back memories of sand blasting my TR6 frame, and all the parts. I ended up having sand everywhere and blowing sand dust out of my nose even with a mask on. I think it was the dirtyest jobs of a rebuild.
The frame was on saw horses, had plastic stapled to the ceiling all around the frame to the floor. Probably spent 40 hours or more to clean it up. What a pain in the A. Used a little box(full of sand) that was strapped to my back to carry around. Blast, vacuum up, fill blaster box, blast, vacuum up, fill blaster box, over and over untill is was dust. New sand and repeat.
You will be glad when its done a big mile stone to pass. This will soon pass, then you can move on to the more fun list to do's
Calvin
Jim
I'm sure you know the hazards of using sand to blast with - silicosis if you breathe any of the dust. If you are going to use sand be sure to use a good respirator. Better to use a non silica media like some of the ground smelting slag (Black Beauty)
Thanks guys. I'm thinking another day or two and I'll have it pretty well knocked out. Now it's lots of short blasts separated by walking away to do other things so the dust can settle enough to be able to see. I'm not using the old open hopper blaster, except to supply the sand. You are very right about the dangers of silicosis. Luckily I have a blast cabinet with a dust sucker connected to it that vents outside. That maintains negative pressure in the cabinet so no dust gets out. No sneezing and no dust in the nose. What an improvement from the old days!
JB
In anticipation of the new wheels coming in I've been doing a little math on the weights. Based on dimensions only, and with the old Centerline wheels weighing in at 11.9 lbs each, the newer larger and wider wheels should come in somewhere close to 21.2 lbs rear and 16.3 lbs front. This isn't as bad as it might seem because the new tires are lighter than might be expected. On the front, depending on the tire I end up with I'll have a +1 or +3 lb increase in unsprung weight at 41 or 43 lbs, 41 most likely. When I do the brake upgrade I expect to drop at least 7 pounds at each front corner, so in the end I think unsprung weight will be below stock, maybe significantly so. More on this later.
Does anyone have the weight of the stock wire wheel and tire, or the stock steel wheel and tire? I may have a caliper and rotor I can weigh, at least the rotor. Not sure about the caliper.
On the rear it's a different story entirely. I pick up about 10 lbs with each wheel if my calculations match the new wheels. The new tires are about 1/4 lb lighter. But I drop considerably more than that with the inboard brakes and independent suspension. I don't remember now what it comes out at, I'd have to look back through this thread to find it. But based entirely on my faulty memory, it seems to me there was something like a 40 lb per side improvement which would translate to a 30 lb decrease even with the heavier wheels.
I think I'm gonna like this.
JB
Jim
If it's any help the weights on my 17" ZR1 clones are 20# for the 11" and 18# for the 9.5"
Harry and Pat's glider did look good though after it was finished. I can't remember what I got out of the deal from Harry...maybe the Konis, but he made up for it on the TR6 and OD.
Bet it made yer eyes cross after awhile, didn't it?
Thankfully I'm about to finish up. Put some fresh sand in tomorrow, hit a few spots, give it all a final blast and paint it. Move on to baking.
I discovered one more little trick that really helped. I had a 2.3" port in the back of the cabinet that was sealed up with a plug so I opened that up and ran a chunk of PVC pipe about 4 ft long and an elbow into it with the pipe pointing straight up. That gave me more airflow through the cabinet without any dust getting out. It didn't get rid of all the fog but it helped tremendously and got rid of a lot more of the dust.
I'll tell you what. After all this I can understand the rust. These are pretty long headers. 38 inches in the primary tubes. It's a little tricky getting around them in the cabinet and some spots are definitely difficult. If the guy was using the same size cabinet I doubt he came out on the price. Of course it's still way easier to do the job right than it is to do it over, but I can understand.
JB
Anything truly worth doing is worth doing twice. If it isn't you'd better be asking yourself if it is worth doing the first time. Often the wiser course is to pay someone else to do the job for you.
But having said that, there is much to be gained by the experience of trying something new. I personally take great pride in being capable of doing the job right and to my own satisfaction the first time around, regardless of the technological challenges and most times my confidence is proven right. I've been doing this type of work long enough now that I almost always am aware of the blind corners before it becomes too late. But, and this is a very big butt, I am never afraid to back up and disassemble if I discover something that I don't like. This is where doing it twice comes in, and as I always keep that thought in mind, I may begrudge the extra labor but I never feel it is unexpected. That is a major plus in a project like these headers.
So. After all of the work required to remove the old coating, including necessary upgrades to the blaster cabinet brought about by weakness in the system revealed by the heavy use, and setting up the oven,I finally was able to coat and bake the headers. YAY! Except that this water based ceramic coating isn't the easiest stuff to master and the coating was a bit heavy on the first one. When It came out of the oven it looked like a boiled egg after you crack it and roll it all around the tabletop. That was followed by a couple days of shaving the new coating off with an old carbon steel butcher knife, a couple more days of yet more upgrades to the blast cabinet, and now finally I am blasting off the last vestiges of the new coating. Should finish that up in another day or so and then there are flaws in the other header which need blasted and re-coated which were caused by mis-handling. It's pretty delicate stuff until it is baked.
If ever there was a job that merited the adage above this was it. Am I glad I did it? Yep. The headers will look much better, I have a new skill, and besides, I could never have afforded the initial cleanup to remove the old coating if I had hired it out. Many, many, many hours of shop time were required to get the old ceramic off. Plus later if any touch-up is needed I can do that quite easily. Would I consider coating headers for someone else? Maybe. It's pretty labor intensive, but for new pipes wouldn't be too bad. I think a lot depends on whether I build the vibratory polisher as that is yet another labor intensive part of the job. Once the pipes meet my satisfaction we'll see about that. It WOULD be handy to have the machine, and not just for polishing headers.
Meanwhile, my new wheels are supposed to come in today. Can't wait. But I have to I guess. Photos soon!
JB
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That's really looking good Jim. I look forward to seeing the car up and running. I came along late to the group and you towed the Roadmaster up to Wisconsin the first year I made the meet and then the engine died soon after that.
It's coming together really nice!
Thanks guys. This time I expect to be pretty much done with upgrades except maybe some stuff like the dashboard and A/C. It'll be time to start putting the miles on again.
Weighed the wheels, 20.5 rear, 3/4 of a lb lighter than expected. Front is 18.1, 2.2 lbs heavier than expected but that was before going to the high pad design which had to add some weight. Those are some really stout center spiders, they look really strong. Plus there is room for any brake package I could want. Here are a couple shots of the wheels and tires. That measuring stick is 12" long. The tire shown with the front wheel is actually a little smaller than what I have in mind for it. That's a 225/45-17 and I expect to go with the 255/45-17, but these will work for now.
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Here's an elevated shot of the front. Sorta looks like it means business, don't it?
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JB
Now I know what you're thinking: There's no way that much rubber is going to fit under an MGB. Right?
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I'd have jacked the tire up higher but the coil-over was wanting to lift the body.
JB
It looks great Jim! Did you do some rocker work too? Don't recall you mentioning it but looks like new metal in the last pic.
Take some pictures of the whole car on the ground. I want to see what it looks like with the flared rocker panels and the big tires.
Jim, this is the best I can do right now, still waiting on new front tires and other things. Car still looks a little high as I couldn't roll it to let the suspension settle.
Rob, that's all old metalwork, nothing new there. New paint isn't on the schedule for another couple years, although it does need it.
The rockers date back to the early 80's but were upgraded with perforated stainless to help cool the mufflers about 15 years back. But bodywork is not my strong suit. There are plenty of flaws.
JB
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I've met with some success on the header re-coating process and now have 1 header with a good coating of cermachrome ceramic, ready for the polishing step. I'm in the process of stripping the other one again for re-coat and after initial work with blade and blaster have opted to try a chemical strip. Using first oven cleaner and then liquid draino (lye) the coating is slowly being eaten away. I'll see how it looks in the morning.
Anyway, I also have a pair of tires for the front on their way but they are back ordered. Hopefully they will ship soon. I went with the 255/45-17s. Not sure exactly how they will fit, but it's going to be close on the inside. I can justify temporary spacers on these though to move them out if I need to, because the planned brake upgrade will be using slip on rotors which should move the flange out about 1/4" anyway. A little fine tuning could be necessary, maybe a bump in the fenderwell or a spacer under the bump stop. I'll have a lot better idea once the tires are mounted. That will also let me know what the car's stance will look like and help me decide how much I need to "bend" the car.
That probably struck you as a funny statement. It should. But allow me to explain. This car has had a rough history. It was a dirt track racer in southern W.Va. (a very rough neighborhood in case you didn't know) and then, after the usual rust attacks, permanently became an experimental vehicle. Along the way a sill replacement was done, but without benefit of the mandatory temporary bracing, the result of which is a sag wherein the center of the car is somewhat higher than the ends. This causes all manner of problems, the most obvious of which are gaps at the windshield and poor door alignment, but it also causes the radiator support to sit lower than it should. The proper repair involves yet another sill replacement which, if you've noticed the rockers, is a bit more of a custom job than the standard repair. So I've come up with a possible solution, but one which is not without risk. I propose to "bend" the car straight. This is to be done by using the 2 post lift as a very large hydraulic press. The idea is to position a beam through the door openings, chain it to the floor on both sides, position blocking to apply force to the selected area of the sill being bent, and then bump the lift up to force the sill down. Will it work? I haven't a clue. But if it does I'll be able to close the gaps and align the doors. And what's the worst that can happen? (OK, maybe I shouldn't even be asking that question. Maybe I should go ahead and order replacement panels. Maybe it's a good thing I have a spare car sitting in the shed.)
I don't know at what point I will attempt this insanity. Sooner than later if I don't like the stance of the car on it's new tires. Or I may wait until I've driven it a bit. We'll see.
JB
Sitting on it's own wheels again finally. The car sits a little high right now, it still has 60 psi in the tires and the suspension needs adjusted down, but that's pretty easy with the coil-overs in the rear and the air bags in the front. Front air bag pressure is at 90 psi which is 10-20 psi high.
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After the car is back on the road I will probably look into replacing the rear coil-overs with air shocks in order to get air suspension all the way around, but the real trick will be if I can get the same air pressures front and rear. That's doubtful but possible. We'll see. It would be nice to be able to raise and lower the entire car at the touch of a button.
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Still sand blasting the second header. If anyone ever tells you this is easy, smack 'em for me! So maybe by a week from now I'll be ready to polish those and I hear that job is real labor intensive. Just the sort of thing I was looking forward to. Incidentally, Techline does have a header coating they say is almost as good which doesn't require polishing or baking. (I think baking it would still be a good idea.) I might consider putting some of that on the MG-Roadmaster's headers sometime.
Looking forward... Driveshaft, shifter, A/C compressor, accessory drive, double condensers, fuel rails, air inlet/throttle body, intercooler plumbing, along with various and sundry small details. This might take awhile.
JB
I found a way to put off building a vibratory polisher to shine up the headers. The labor was one thing, but the ceramic tumbling media was going to cost a couple grand, I don't have that kind of money to spend on it, and pea gravel wasn't looking like an acceptable substitute. So I found a shop that would polish them for me and shipped them off. Hopefully they'll be back next week sometime. In the meantime I've begun work on the inlet scoop. The IAC valve isn't going to work very well on the downstream side of the blower so I pulled that off and will make a blanking plate to replace it, and will locate the IAC on the bottom of the scoop between the butterflies and the air filter. The large pcv breather line will go there as well from the Lucas flame trap, and if I decide I want a throttle blip valve there will be enough room left there for it as well. It's looking like the three butterflies will be very close to 2-1/2" diameter which is pretty big in terms of airflow but visually about right and proportional to the rest of the scoop and the blower. If low throttle openings give me trouble I may have to play with the linkage to get less movement with the first part of the pedal travel.
I will almost assuredly have to cut the hood again. Maybe that won't be too bad though. After the nice way the opening in the Roadmaster's hood came out I think I can do a little better on the edge treatment.
Anyway, I have the bottom of the scoop cut out and bolted to the inlet with a spacer and I've found how to make nice clean large radius bends in the 1/8" aluminum sheet I'm using for it so now I'm just waiting on more supplies to come in. I'll try to get some photos.
JB
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Menacing. I almost didn't notice the headers. Looks like they polished out very nicely. Too bad most of them are hidden by the fenders.
Actually Rob, they are not. You're forgetting it's a tilt front end, so when the hood is open it looks about like what you see there.
The headers came out very nice. The place I sent them to did a really good job polishing them and was fair on the price at $50. The shipping ate me up though, $75 there and $55 coming back. (10 of the 75 was insurance) But these always were expensive headers. When I first built them I had $750 in the headers and header mufflers. This time around I couldn't even say but it's probably less than that and I have other things to show for it like the oven and blaster upgrades as well as a new skill so it wasn't that bad. You can see the age in them though. Pockmarks from old rust, tool marks from cleaning, etc. They have character. But I hope the coating will last longer than the last time. If it does I won't have to worry about the next time around.
One thing I did was to install bungs for individual EGT sensors. But the sensors themselves are about $55 each so they won't get installed right away. I think they are a good idea, but buying wheels put them off the radar for awhile. Gotta have wheels though, if it don't roll it can't go anywhere. These headers are 1-1/2" diameter long tube (38") equal length within 1/8" on all 8 tubes and they really lit a fire under my high revving Buick 215 and the blown Olds 215. I built them expecting to end up with a 5L BOPR but I think they will do just fine on the 340. I cannot overemphasize the benefit of equal length tubes. I know our MGBs don't have room for them but they really wake the engine up.
Menacing... That's a word I'd never thought of but now that you mention it the new scoop does sort of convey that character just based on its size. Really it doesn't look quite that big in real life. I don't know if that will change when the throttle body goes on and with the rest of it boxed in. I have several more significant challenges in finishing it and I'm flying by the seat of the pants but it's coming out pretty good so far. The challenge is making it look good and also work right. But I'm pretty confident of success. One critical part fell into place today, a domed aluminum weld cap which will provide the transition pieces at the upper rear corners. Some trickiness with the filter tray and some lower radius transition pieces and then a bunch of welding, clean up and polishing. The throttle body is an entirely different challenge. If anyone is interested I can take some construction photos of the scoop. I was inspired by Gary Walker's work on the surge tank for the MG-Roadmaster to try some new tricks and up my game and I think it is going to pay off. You know, there are tasks that you do in which you try to work quickly and get done, and then there are some fairly rare opportunities when you take your time, work deliberately and carefully and create artworks. This is one of those opportunities and I'm trying my best to make the most of it.
JB
Here's what I've been working on during the last couple of weeks:
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Still have to make the throttle body to go on the front, and the housing needs polished and buffed, but functionally it is complete except for the breather tube fitting. The air filter is a modified K&N for a SBC if I remember correctly, and the IAC valve will mount to a block on the underside. I still have to make an inlet screen for the block.
JB
Looking real nice Jim!
How do you change the air filter?
Cheers
Fred
I think you might have created a bit of a blind spot with that blower! :)
Seriously, amazing fabrication work Jim. Keep the pictures coming. I can't wait to hear it.
Thanks for the kind words.
I can actually see over it so the blind spot is only right in front of the car on the right side, not as bad as it might seem. It's a little taller than the old one (in my avitar) but I honestly never even noticed that one at all. We'll see how it looks when the front end goes back on the car. To clean the filter I just pull down and forward on the frame below the filter (just takes a gentle tug) and then the filter drops out. The throttle body will have a pair of tapered prongs attached to the back side which will wedge the frame upwards to seat it when the TB is attached. Getting that piece made is my winter project this year. There's quite a bit of trickery that goes into the TB and it won't be fast or easy, but at least it'll be the second time through this time and I have a few new things to try. For one, I am going to make the butterflies this time instead of cannibalizing an old carb base. Then I am going to use a pair of bellcranks along with heim joints and polished stainless rod to actuate the shaft and this will let me configure the linkage to get maximum pedal movement at minimum throttle openings and vice-versa. I may even put the TPS on the lower bellcrank if I can get all the play out of the linkage as it would look cleaner and get the same proportional advantage as the gas pedal.
But for now I have polishing and buffing to do, any tips gratefully accepted. Not just the housing but also my stringers for the inner fenders which are stainless and more than a little tedious to buff. I have to get those done next though because they are holding me up on my plans to bend the car, which has to be done before I can hook up the header mufflers. So at this point it's all pretty much brainless labor for awhile. Which is actually a good thing because I'm not up for any more big challenges until I get time to recharge. Maybe sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas I can get back on the more demanding stuff.
JB
Much closer now. All the major components are in place and it looks pretty complete. Today was a big day for me.
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The scoop and stringers are nicely polished and installed. Not perfect, but I was always more interested in results than appearance anyway.
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This is the third major build for this car and finally, I am completing the car I've always wanted. There is really nothing on the car I would change even if time and money were no object. Well, maybe spruce up the interior and paint a little, but it's very comfortable the way it is so maybe not. Maybe run the exhaust out the rear and do the planned upgrade on the brakes sometime but those are pretty minor compared to all the rest. I'm really looking forward to driving this car.
Still a lot of smaller jobs to do, and one very particular milling job. But the worst is behind me now.
JB
Today I managed to cut out the blanks to make the throttle plates. That job was sandwiched in between making upgrade parts for the milling machine. (It's the Blackwood way... fix or make a machine so you can do the job. Usually the fixing takes 3 times what the job does.) Those blanks will be placed into a custom angle jig (yet to be made) and have the edges turned on the lathe so that they match the bores in the throttle body when at a small angle like any other throttle. It's exacting work, but a good job on that means a nice low idle will be possible. Of course I have to decide which comes first, the plates or the bores. A lot of thought goes into making a throttle body before even the first chips can be made, and parts like shaft bearings have to be on hand before determining final dimensions. Getting ever closer though, the plan is pretty complete.
I also moved the car to the lift, ordered a box of 5/8 x 7" tapcons and found a length of 3 x 3" square tube to run across the sills so hopefully I'll be ready to bend the car in another day or two. I still haven't decided whether to remove the perforated rockers first, but I probably will. I'll probably sink the tapcons tomorrow and set up the rigging, then I have a bunch of very careful measuring and comparing to do before giving it the first shot. It should be very handy having the '74 in the shed for comparison.
JB
Amazing work Jim!!!!
Thanks Chris, but it's nothing anyone couldn't do with the right tools and know how. Bad thing is, it tends to take years if not decades to get either. But I've paid my dues, so now occasionally I get to play. That's the payoff for all the fixing and making mentioned above.
Today's work is done, tomorrow will be spent with family. Somewhere along the line I'll try to finish the rigging and measurements and then maybe I'll see if Steve would like to assist in the bending. Wouldn't hurt a bit to have an extra set of eyes and ears and he should be here by mid-afternoon on Sunday. We'll see what happens when you intentionally try to bend an MGB bodyshell. I dare say that it's unlikely anybody has ever tried it before.
JB
Well what a surprise. I knew the MGB body tub was stout, but I really had no idea. By my calculations we applied something in excess of 11,000 lbs to the inner sill on the passenger's side and the door opening flexed less than 1/4", and then sprang back when the pressure was removed. I even tried jumping up and down on the opposite sill to apply leverage across the body but it wasn't giving in the least, and felt as solid as if it were under no pressure at all.Sort of a bitter-sweet moment to realize just how strong that structure is, but that I'm stuck with the shape it is in until the next paint job. That could be a very long time. Oh well, on to more important matters.
JB
Did you take pictures of the rig you used when you were bendinng the car?
Yes Jim B., could you ? I'll need to do this several times on the Healey, but I need a good plan on the rigging. Thanks, roverman.
I'm sorry guys I didn't even think to take a photo. Steve came in and I wanted to do the deed and get it off the lift so we could change the oil in the Roadmaster. But it was a pretty simple rig so I'll try to explain it.
I put the car on the 2 post lift in the normal fashion except that I used 1 ft long 2x4 blocking between the pads and the car, under the frame rails at the front and under the spring hangers at the rear. Then blocking up with 3x3x12" blocks on the inside sills so that a 3x3 square tube across the sills cleared the tunnel by an inch or so. On the off side I placed another square tube under the lift arms parallel with the car and chained it to the cross tube using an axle strap and on the side to be bent used a second strap and chained the end of the beam to two 5/8 x 6" large tapcons embedded in the shop floor, using 2" x 1/8" strap folded up around the head to even the pull with a 1/2" bolt through the ends and the chain in the center.
I used the lift to apply force to the sill by raising it in the usual manner and taking measurements as force was applied. We had about 1/4" of initial deflection at the top of the door opening front to rear but then upon attempting to lift further the deflection stopped and the pressure relief bypassed the hydraulic fluid. At that point I went around to the off side and figuring the distance from the lift points to the anchor point and from the lift points to the opposite sill would give me some significant force multiplication, I jumped up and down on the off side sill. It just laughed at me.
Because there is a healthy steel cable in tension equalizing lift force in the lift from side to side, the force of the cylinder on the off side transferred across to the working side, applying the full force of the lift which has a 9000 lb capacity (Rotary brand lift from a Ford dealership). I figured about a 10:1 ratio for jumping on the opposite sill so added another ton or so.
JB
Here's a shot of the Idle Air Control valve and mounting:
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The IAC is late M'tang and is a large diameter valve compared to earlier units so I'm hoping it is also quicker reacting. We'll see.The mount includes a stainless breather screen to keep out bugs and large debris. Flow is then through the standard air inlet filter. I had to move it up here because the earlier location on the plenum is subject to positive pressure which would have really complicated tuning. This location, nicely tucked away under the inlet scoop, is much better.
JB
A bit more eye candy:
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This PCV system uses the British format with an orifice breather on the opposite corner of the engine. The stainless line was sand packed and formed using a custom fabricated bender. It draws filtered air through the engine via the orifice and then into the blower inlet under vacuum under normal conditions (also assisting in sealing small oil seepages) and vents blowby directly to the inlet under WOT. The inner diameter of the tube is about 9/16". The large canister below the tube is the stock Rover flame trap which prevents crankcase explosion in the event of a backfire and also separates oil vapors and droplets and returns them to the rocker box.
JB
Beautiful work Jim, you continue to impress me with your fabrication skills on this project.
Jim, where did you get the rubber connections for your PCV lines, especially the one that connects to the valve cover breather? I think I would like do to the same thing with mine and do away with the ugly rubber hoses that I have right now.
Looks fantastic!!!!
Chris, you can pick those up at any chain store, look in their "help" parts display.
JB
Thanks Jim. I'll take a look next time I'm in the parts store.
Made a little more progress finally. For Christmas this year I must have been a good little boy because I got, not coal, not switches, but a brand spanking new A/C compressor for the B! So I've been a busy B making up a mount for it, which you can see in the not so great photos below. (what can I say, the light was bad on account of the snowstorm) Made from 7ga. stainless (.160", 4mm or just under 3/16" for the dimensionally challenged) and triple gusseted, two bolts give 3 point rigid attachment, with just enough clearance all around, once I bashed the inner fender a little with a bfh. What the heck, it'd already been "tweaked" a bit anyway. The compressor is a Sanden 1027S2, which is used on semi trucks, hence the 8 groove serpentine pulley. I HOPE it'll be enough to keep the roadster cool. Guess it's time to shop seriously for a condenser and an evaporator.
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Jim
Wow, that looks tight!
Nice bling skills!
That's pretty cool Jim, (pun intended)
It also has the required "raccoon factor" as the lovely Lynne puts it.
If it's shiny you gotta have it!
That's pretty close to AHITH though. (another hole in the hood)
Cheers
Fred
Naw, a MBITB (mere bump in the bonnet). ;)
"Racoon Factor". I like that, it explains a lot. Anyway I'm not planning on either AHITH or MBITB. It'll clear. Shirley it will. The breather now, that I'm not so sure of but I'll change that if I have to.
I did consider removing some of the mounting lugs from the compressor, and may consider it again. It would make for a cleaner look. It would also mean this one could never be used for a core should the need arise. But I want it to be workable without doing that, again in case the need should arise. Rob is right, it is a tight fit, something which I imagine Calvin can appreciate. I need a little more clearance around the pulley, that will bump out pretty easily. Otherwise it's good.
This car has tight clearances all the way around, yet it's better in many regards than before when it was really close at the steering knuckle, driveshaft-to-ebrake pivot bolt and other places. Better mounts mean everything is more tightly controlled for less movement and that will help a lot. I've not noticed the engine of the Roadmaster moving around very much at all. It wobbles a bit at idle. If that's all this one does it'll be fine, and if needed I do have stiffer isolators.
Racoon factor, hmmm,... maybe I could buff out the compressor body... Ooooh,.... Shiny,....
Made some progress on the throttle body over the past few days, I'll try to get a photo soon but there really isn't that much to see. Still it is a complex piece to manufacture using the tools available to a small shop and presents some formidable challenges, one of which is the bore for the shaft bearings. Now the throttle shaft on this piece is unusually large, as the throttle body itself is 10 inches wide and will contain 3 butterflies in line, each of which is 2-1/2 inches in diameter and will have no trouble flowing enough air to feed the Eaton M-112 blower. However that means there has to be a hole straight down the middle of a 10" long block of aluminum, and the bore must be quite straight or the shaft will bind. I'm using four precision sealed ball bearings with an OD of 23mm and I do not have a 23mm long reamer or long drill (either of which is quite expensive) and none of my machines has more than 6" of quill travel.
Despite those difficulties I found a way but I'm afraid the details would not be that interesting. The important thing is that it is done and I can move on. So now I have this block with a hole through it, have test fitted the shaft and bearings and am ready to move on to the throttle bores, and once I have determined the spacing I can cut those. They will be fitted with trumpets going through the body and those in turn will house the butterflies. Then the body will get the outside contoured and an o-ring groove to mate to the body of the scoop and other details. As it gets closer to being finished it will get more interesting to look at and I'll be sure to post photos.
In the meantime the stock came in for the serpentine idler pulleys and I have some recycled bearings that will work very well for those. So after I have accurized the 3 jaw chuck for the lathe I can get started on those as well. Because they are back side idlers they will be simple pieces, requiring only concentricity and accuracy in the bearing bores.
Jim
Awesome Jim, keep getting all those small details done, before long we will all see a youtube video of your first start up! I can't wait to see and hear your fire breathing 340 on video.
"Yes" I can appreciate tight tolerances, that's where our wifes can help with small hands... to get that damn bolt in there so we can tighen it up. The BFH does work for last alternative :-).... My hands are big enough, that everything needed to go together in a certain way, to reach those 2 or 3 very hard unabtainable bolts. Specialty tools can be made.
Jim, it is close in there! Any concerns about the closeness of the back of the compressor to the header heat-wise?
A little Phil. The discharge line will have to have a "U" bend in it to go up and around the compressor and can be hard-line until it gets forward of the drive belt. I'll try first to find a hose with that end. The line from the condenser to the evaporator can be down on the frame rail, and that leaves the suction line which will have to go straight back to the firewall over the header. For that one I do have a new OEM hose with heat shield and insulation and I think a section of that will work pretty well although I'm also considering running it inside a stainless tube. I have some time to think about it. That is the line most likely to pick up heat.
Well, the stock for the pulleys came in but I'm not quite ready to start on those yet. I have finished giving the lathe a tune up but I'm working on the trumpets for the throttle body instead. My 3 jaw chuck had some runout so I mounted the 4-jaw, centered up a short piece of 2" chromed hydraulic cylinder piston rod that I had lying around and then clamped the 3-jaw to the end of it. That let me true up the mounting surfaces on the back and then I re-cut the backing plate to match. After all that, when I re-mounted the 3-jaw the runout was between 1/2 and 1 thousandth and that's about as good as it gets for an older machine with a cheap chuck.
That means that for most work I'll be able to remove the part and re-position it without losing my centerline, which is a big plus in lathe work, and it is certainly close enough for things like pulleys and trumpets.
So I parted off the blanks for the trumpets, about twice the finished length. Now I can swap the 3 parts in and out for roughing, finish, bore cuts, tapers and chamfers and get near perfect uniformity between the three. In fact, I can leave the finish cut on the OD until after I have cut and bored the mating holes in the throttle body block, and get just the fit I am looking for, then part them off and finish the inlet ends. (it is sort of important to map out the steps in advance) Once I get to that point it'll be a good time for pictures.
In the meantime I'll be thinking about the pulleys, and how I'm going to hold them while cutting the pulley grooves.
Jim
Thought I'd post some more bling:
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Those are 2-1/2" throttle bores, the shaft is 7/16. The trumpets will get sunk into the block and then all rounded, smoothed and polished with brass butterflies and a stainless or aluminum actuator arm depending on what materials I have on hand. Next step, bore the holes for them, precisely to size and precisely 3.000" apart.
Doc
Looking good Jim, the racoons would be proud of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF6Nx8Yq3Ik
New sig video for ya, Doc
"Wow" .... 2.5x 3 = 7.5" of airflow entry. Dang that's 190.5 mm throttle body there. I'm running a small tiny weeny 90mm throttle body. That is going to be some serious airflow. How much do you think your intake is going to flow with your calculations? Or where do you think your bottle neck will be? Are you going to install an IAC sensor in the throttle body?
Get the "buffing blinging" badaxx coon holes bored out! Can't wait to hear this 340 run!
Looks & Sounds the T/B will flow more than either the intake,heads or exhaust could flow. Just a little extra capacity if needed? Maybe you can use this T/B on the Roadmaster with some to spare :).
Naw, check your area calcs, it's a mere 110mm (4-11/16"), slightly reduced by the shaft and blade and some minor internal restrictions. Not that that matters when you have a roots type blower sucking air through it. I didn't want to choke off the engine any more than I had to. ;-)
The bottle neck? Probably the valves and cam, most likely on the exhaust side.
Doc
The IAC is mounted on the bottom of the scoop behind the throttle body, nicely tucked out of the way. Since it is upstream of the air filter all it needs is an inlet screen. The TPS will be mounted on the bellcrank below the throttle body for that clean look.
I think the "bottle neck" will be Jim's sphincter Calvin ;-)
That's some pretty fine machine work there Jim.
And it's soooo shiny.......must .......look ....away.
Cheers
Fred
OK brother Racoons! Look Away! Look away from the light!
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Now I have to buy more tooling before I can continue, like a pair of horizontal/vertical indexers so I can slot and drill the shaft. And since I'm a cheap bastard it's ebay shopping for me and may take awhile.
Jim
Shiny!!!!
Wow!
There's some considerable time and skill into that.
You sure you want to put it on a car and get it all dirty?
This raccoon likes it a lot!!!
Amazing work Jim.
That's Badass looking Jim! Great work indeed. Gotta lov the stamp lettering + sig!!
Ok whats next, keep posting progress for us and soon it will be on the road!!
I've been reworking the body of the scoop. It had a lot of ripples in the top and the weld seams where I closed it up didn't have enough penetration, so I gouged the seams with my trusty zip wheel and rewelded them, then spent some quality time with the hydraulic press, re-shaping the top so that it could be dressed down smooth on the belt sander. That is all finished now, leaving the final steps of welding in some mounting lugs for the throttle body attachment screws, and then final buffing. I found some aluminum preservative called "Liquid Glass" that seems like it'll work pretty well and is easy to apply. Pricey at 25 bucks a quart but worth it if it works. I need to create a seal in the bottom of the seating groove where the two parts go together, and I'm thinking maybe I'll try squirting "Right Stuff" in the groove and then just wipe off the excess and see if I can't get a concave surface. Then maybe wax up the scoop real good and assemble the parts with very light pressure. As long as the wax I use releases properly it should give me a perfect seal. I thought about using saran wrap but I just suspect the goop will stick to that. Still need to make the actuating lever arm and a trim cap for the other side.
I found an indexer I could afford and it should be here in a couple of days. With that I should be able to finish the shaft and complete the assembly. I also found an expanding collet that I can use to complete the idler pulleys, and have done the preliminary work on the support bracket layout, though I think I need one more attachment point. Maybe a mounting boss on the LH head or the alternator mount will work. There is a good bit of stress on those idlers.
After that it's on to the fuel rails. The left had one will be extended forward as a support for the throttle linkage bellcrank and TPS, and the hold down brackets are going to be a little tricky. I want to make something that is strong yet elegant in appearance, while holding the rail solidly and being easily removed. Rather contradictory requirements given the application.
I'll post a photo once the scoop is back on the car.
Jim
Jim I would like to see more photos of the construction of the throttle boddies if you have them.
Very cool.
I think I can do that.
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This first shot shows the bores completed and two of the trumpets fitted.
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More machining work finished
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The back side showing the seal groove
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And the nearly completed assembly. Note that the shaft is carried on four ball bearings. The framework that you see inside is the retainer for the air filter and the area of the rectangle is just a bit smaller than the throttle openings at an effective diameter of 3-3/4" or 95 mm, however I will be relieving the sides of the frame to allow more flow from the outside bores so the restriction should be minimal after that is finished. The filter itself impinges on airflow a bit at the top as well, but as mentioned before, the blower is capable of drawing a considerable vacuum on it's own so I do not expect inlet flow to be that much of a restriction. If I get 8-10 psi at full tilt-n-boogie I'll be very satisfied I expect.
Jim
Very cool; fantastic work.
Thanks Gary. That means a lot, coming from you.
Jim
I could learn a lot from what you do in the machine shop Jim. I am a wana be machinist.
Aw shucks. Ain't nothin' but whittlin' metal.
Jim
Jim, I am a machinist and your work impresses me!
Paul
Coming from one of my peers, that's about the nicest compliment I could get I believe. But don't worry, I live with a pygmy. She takes swift action if fatheads are detected. ;-)
I got the scoop housing buffed out again (had to fix a few welds, remember the Blackwood Creed: If it's worth doing once...), laid a bead of sealant in the seal groove on the throttle body, and have been getting everything ready to mill the slots in the throttle shaft. First I needed a mandrel for the 3/32" slitting saw I bought to do the job and I found a chunk of an old 8" ford axle and turned a mandrel out of that since I figured it would be pretty tough. The case gave me a little trouble drilling the hole for a drive pin but it's done and runs true so it should do a good job. I partially disassembled the indexer that came in. It had been abused but with a little attention it will be serviceable. I chased the collet threads with a tap and will make new rollers for the release handle and I believe it'll be OK, if a little beat up.
It turns out the indexer is going to match up nicely to my work vise, so that will be handy for supporting the loose end of the shaft. But I don't have any DROs or even handwheel dials on the mill, (It is undergoing an upgrade to CNC and has ballscrews fitted in place of the old pneumatic/hydraulic NC system but no dials or controller yet.) so I'll have to rig something with dial calipers, dial indicator and gauge blocks. It's all a little tricky doing things the hard way like this, but some day when the mill is done it will be much easier. At my current rate that might be another ten years, but them's the breaks. Hey, I've got no complaints, the mill was free!!
Jim
Just a thought for the temporary use of the mill ? Easy to rig and read ? Good Luck, roverman.
Actually, yesterday I made up magnet mounts for a 6" and a 12" dial calipers that I had handy. That gets me enough measured motion on the x and y axis and a mag mount dial indicator should handle the quill once I get a stop made for it. I've been waiting on some orders to come in before setting up to mill the shaft but I may be able to get started on it sometime tomorrow if other things go well.
But thanks for the suggestion, it's a good one. (Don't know if I want to put my 16" degree wheel on a hand crank though. I don't have a smaller one.)
Jim
Thought I'd let y'all know that I've pretty much completed the throttle body and it sure does look good. It needs a trim cap for the far end of the throttle shaft bore and an actuator arm but everything else is done and those are just small details really. I've also been working on the idlers and brackets for the serpentine drive. I really wanted to finish that up before this weekend and I might or might not manage that. Anyway I won't be able to get photos posted any earlier than maybe Saturday. That big ole bug catcher sure is impressive. A little more radical than I had planned on really, but that's OK.
Jim
I'm pretty stoked to see it in person this weekend!!!
A lot of the racoons will be gathering to see all of Jim's shiny things and oooh and aaah.
Greetings brother Racoons! Seems like the automotive jewelry was a hit last weekend.
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Taking a short break from it to do other important stuff but I'll get back to it soon enough. As you can see the belt drive is coming along. I'll get some shots of it as soon as I get some help to lift the hood back off.
Jim
I probably missed it Jim but did you use bushings or bearings?
Lotsa bearings Gary, everywhere you could put one. ;-)
Jim
New brake rotors: These are Speedway .81 x 12.19" and weigh 6.1 lbs each. Apparently made by CNC machining a standard rotor with the scallop pattern. About fifty bucks each. The tape is a size reference.
Jim
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Light enough for you Jim? Those are going to look awsome through those wheels you have on the car.
Wow, that's half the weight of the 12" Corvette rear rotors I'll be using and 1/3 the weight of the 13" fronts. How much does the hat weigh?
Jim, if I use the Willwood aluminum hats I've heard they are 1.6 lbs (but I've also heard 1 lb.) Steel isn't much heavier. Plus a few ounces for the bolts, so figure about 8 lbs. The calipers are 2 lbs each, and I don't have the pads yet, probably another pound or so there, so about 11 lbs total. Which I think is about as light as you can get without going to exotic materials. Well actually I think you can drop almost another pound by going with the 11" rotors, and for most cars that would be worthwhile. Cheaper too by about five bucks.
Here's a neat little piece, though the photo is crappy:
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This is the saddle for the blower snout support and the stainless strap with the glass beads laying on it will go over the top. The saddle gets welded to a 3/4" square support stay that bolts to the front cover and also supports the belt idler assembly. There is one more piece missing because I haven't made it yet, a somewhat trick little tensioner rod that goes through the saddle and secures the ends of the strap then pulls it down using the two 10-32 SHCS in the photo. Not many of you will be able to visualize just how that is going to work, but bear with me, it should be finished and all polished up in a few days, along with the idler assembly. Then I'll post photos of the completed rig all installed.
Jim
Well, that last bit was poorly worded and didn't come out very good. Like anyone, I can be an idiot sometimes. I just meant it'd be hard to visualize how it will look, so I will describe it. Basically the cross pin will have round ends and a roughly elliptical mid section. The ends will be 5/16" diameter but the ellipse will be 1/4" tall by somewhere between 3/8 and 1/2" wide. It will have two vertical #10-32 threaded holes matching the holes in the saddle (which only go through as far as the bore of the cross hole) Then the strap will have a pair of 5/16" holes. To install it, the cross pin gets inserted and the screws threaded loosely into it from the bottom, then the strap is fitted over the blower drive shaft and sprung over the ends of the cross shaft which will project just a little on each side. The elliptical cut, which is on the bottom, will provide a seat, capturing the strap against the saddle as the cross pin is pulled downwards by tightening the capscrews, whose ends bear against the body of the saddle. In this way the clamping force of the capscrews will tighten the band around the nose of the blower driveshaft housing, holding it tightly to the saddle. Since there is no relative motion between that and the front housing, bolting the strut at the bottom will create a rigid assembly capable of supporting the idler group once torsion stresses are directed through a separate attachment point.
...maybe a picture would be better.
Jim
Jim, I'm sure it sounds a lot more complicated that it will be when completed. I think I've got the idea though but then I saw the blower snout where you'd machined it to accept the support so I have a bit of an advantage over the others. When you get finished the engineers in the crowd will drool and the racoons in the group will as well.!
And you do the herky jerky and you turn yourself around.
Uhm, I get it but unless you have an engineering degree, the picture will be needed.
Once again Jim "too cool for school" you continue to impress!
Cheers
Fred
Made a little more progress. That brace is finished except for drilling and tapping one hole and polishing it. I sort of stalled out on the belt idlers for awhile trying to design the tensioner device but I think I've got it now. It'll be another week before I can weld it up.
However, I did make a couple of key purchases with my tax money. A matching pair of full sized condensers, one for the A/C and one for the intercooler, and a set of 42 lb injectors. Those will all be here in another week or so. Plus I've asked Matt Cramer for some help sorting out the hardware of the new Megasquirt controller as it will be pretty complex. It includes transmission control and will eventually have 8 EGT inputs and individual COP ignition. So there is a lot to do there and I might as well get started building the boards.
I've also started on the structure for the new hinges for the forward tilt front end. If it will work out I think I'll use the BMW system with a front pivot rod that cantilevers the pivot to "lift and separate" before hinging forward.
Jim
I understand the rotors are lighter than conventional round, of same overall diameter. The loaded radius is also the same,(leverage). I wonder about the airflow, looks tortuous compared to round ? It would be nice to find ceramic rotors in aftermarket. Cheers, roverman.
Art, I think they just took their standard rotors and CNC machined them to get the scalloped shape. So basically more surface area for a given mass, but the same rotor before machining would have more thermal mass AND surface area so it would have more capacity, just be heavier. I don't think capacity is going to be a problem. If it is that just means I have the wrong pads.
Jim
Time to dig up this old thread I guess. No photos right now but I'll get some soon to show progress. I have added a pair of stiffeners to the front of the inner fenders which tie the top reinforcements to the bumper mount area, and have finished the serpentine drive except for the tensioner screw. That probably doesn't sound like much progress. Oh, I also mounted the condensers. Anyway it looks a little better and I can start on the bonnet hinges. Still a lot to do but not as much as there was.
Jim
Jim
I'm interested in your bonnet hinges as I'm going to start designing the ones for mine soon. I will also have a front tilting hood and will probably incorporate the grille in with the hood so the whole thing will tilt at the same time - my fenders will stay put though. Post lots of pictures
OK. The design I'm working on this time around has a lot in common with some older BMW's. A rod across the front ties to a pair of 18" long arms that pivot at a mounting point on the underside of the fender. The rod crosses above the slam panel and basically a 6" lift at the front gives a 2" forward motion at the rear, at which point a pair of locating fingers clear the rear lip and allow the whole works to pivot forwards and down. That basic motion is the same as the last hinge I used but is more robust as well as being balanced from side to side by the cross rod. As for the actuation, I've done away with the gas struts. I have a Mercruiser tilt/trim hydropack in the trunk and a couple rolls of 1/16" stainless tubing so all I need are some cylinders and I'll be able to open and close with the touch of a button. Provided it all works as planned. Hey, I'm all for labor saving devices and as often as this hood will be opened I should probably have a remote.
Needless to say this all adds a little weight. But the balance will be as good as it ever was, maybe better, and the ratio of sprung/unsprung weight will go up so the ride will only get better. The car was already faster than I am and I don't think that will change. So it's all good.
Might be a day or two before I get those photos though, got family visiting.
Jim
Photos finally!
MVC-156F.JPG
MVC-154F.JPG
The serpentine drive is completed, aside from one stainless setscrew to replace the black one and a nylon plug to go behind it. That locks the adjusting screw.
The difficult thing about this drive is the number of fabrication and machining steps required to make it. If a really sharp worker knew exactly what he needed to do he might be able to duplicate it working full time in a couple weeks if all went well. So at standard shop rates that'd be upwards of five grand. Sadly, very few people can afford those prices. So this is likely to be the only one like this that you'll ever see.
Jim
Jim, that's super trick looking and well engineered . don't guess too many orders are pending? Glad to see you ready for next step.
Jim:
Huge amount of measuring, head-scratching and time spent in front of a lathe and vertical mill. Awesome job and looking great!! Perhaps the next one could look like this? :~)
SkullSupercharger.jpg
Aw... THAT is just completely SICK Phil :-)
Jim
Jim,
Looking real good there I must say! I want to see this running in the flesh.....Awesome fab work! The check list is getting smaller Jim.
It's still a pretty long list. I've started on the hinges and may be able to mostly finish those this week but it seems like I'm at the point where every piece has to be polished and buffed, which really slows things down. But all our racoon brothers would be proud. Anyway I'll be a lot happier when there are no more major pieces to make. Well, one at a time I guess.
Jim
Jim
How you coming along on the hood hinges?
I have the cross rod and the main arms cut and polished but not buffed. They need welded together then a set of upper hinges, a set of lower pillow blocks, and an offset arm and small custom hydraulic cylinder and mount. Then lines and control wires to finish up. That is probably a week's worth of work that I need to squeeze into the schedule somehow. But I'll post photos once I have some shiny bits to display.
Jim
Sounds like you're 90% there - only 90% to go.
I guess you must know about that huh?
I think maybe I'd better make the upper hinges next before I weld the arms to the cross rod since there will probably be machine work involved. The tricky part is caused by the fact that the side hood lines are not parallel. What does that do to the hinge assembly as it goes from horizontal to vertical? Create a bind, most likely. Just have to try it and see.
I would think that you need to keep the entire hinge mechanism working in a plane that is parallel to the centerline of the car, not parallel to the sides of the hood. Sections of the hinge mechanism can lie in separate planes as long as both are parallel to the centerline of the car.
Or perpendicular? That can be done I think but it will take some accurate angle measurement and tricky milling set ups. Hopefully I will get a chance to do the final polishing of the arms this weekend and possibly some of the buffing also, then I'll look at the angles. The thing is, the upper hinge probably does not move more than about 30 degrees. It might tolerate some misalignment. But no doubt it would be best to avoid that. I'd also like to make the hinge a good bit beefier than last time around, and would prefer to be at 5/16" or larger on the hinge pin. But that will mean building up the ends of the arms. Perhaps the TIG is the way to go on that, as it will let me build up a more organic shape.
Jim
I need to make a pair of very small leaf springs. Their purpose is to bias the upper hinge downwards towards the cowl which will make the hinge mechanism articulate properly and I should be able to clamp the end in the hinge mount on the hood assembly. I'm sort of hoping someone has run across a suitable material somewhere along the line. It needs to be extra flexy since a short segment of just a couple or three inches needs to cover around 30° or more of movement and it needs to be corrosion resistant and stainless preferred. Thickness can be about 1/16" to 1/8" and width about 3/4".
Anybody have any ideas? I'm guessing somewhere in the range of 10-20° per inch of flex might work. Maybe there is a stainless grade, or maybe there is a place where I can get some of that nickel-titanium alloy that they make eyeglasses frames out of. Any leads would be great.
Jim
Just had a quick look on the net - just have to find the right supplier of SS spring steel product. Here's one product....
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/423859852/stainless_steel_springs.html
Thanks Graham but I need a small quantity. Alibaba wants to sell 3000 pieces/20Kg,etc. A few ft would be plenty.
Jim
Could you use some other material like a plastic or carbon fiber strip?
McMaster has some spring stock http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-spring-steel-sheets/=j4ecqw
I guess I'll try the. 031" thick full hard 301SS strip from McMasterCarr and about a 3 leaf spring pack. That should allow enough flex at about the right spring loading to get the upper hinge to articulate properly. Haven't seen a source yet for NiTi strip or for that matter any alloy of titanium in a hardened condition. I just hope I won't be overflexing the stainless. Probably will be pretty close to the yeild point.
Jim
Calling all Racoon Brothers! Shiny bits coming right up!
The hinges are done and mounted. Of course this just means more tasks but it's one more done.
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MVC-168F.JPG
MVC-169F.JPG
MVC-170F.JPG
The operation is smooth and correct. Standing in front of the car I can grab the front of the cutout and by pulling forward and a little upward the front first comes up and then the entire unit swings forward. No springs as of yet, I may not need them, but I'm working on a plan to open and close it remotely.
Jim
Driveshaft is in and the fuel rails are done except for a throttle linkage pivot, hold downs, and buffing. I plan to order the MegaShift later this week.
Jim
Looks great Jim, more bling. All the racoons are envious!
My brother racoons, I think you are really going to like the throttle linkage that I'm working on. I have a few more parts to make and some buffing and polishing to do but I will have some photos soon.
Jim
Got some pictures finally. They aren't great but at least it's something. Here is the linkage as it attaches to the throttle body. The arm is polished stainless billet:
MVC-182F.JPG
Next is the forwrd pivot it attaches to. This translates the up/down motion to fore/aft and also modifies the arc-motion to give finer control to the off idle transition. The TPS is mounted on this shaft:
MVC-183F.JPG
Then the rear pivot further modifies the arc-motion in the same direction and gives attachment to the throttle cable, also accommodating the pivot motion of the cable sheath:
MVC-184F.JPG
And finally, the barrel nuts secure the fuel rail down to the intake manifold, providing a secure mounting for the linkages and regulator. Note that the barrel nut is not assembled in this shot, sitting alongside the threaded boss it attaches to:
MVC-185F.JPG
I had quite a bit of fun with the anodizing of the parts you see in these shots, as I had never done it before, but as you can see the results came out quite good, and the camera really does poor justice to the colors. Some of the challenges were pretty significant ones. The bracket which holds the throttle cable is cast aluminum for instance, always a challenge in any anodizing attempt. The barrel nuts too, as they are hard anodized using a one-off composition and process, giving a greenish tint to the natural color.
Which brings up the last point. As you can see I have gone to great lengths to insure that my car has the utmost in eco-friendly features. The fueling system is about as green as I could make it, considering it is in a red car. Green fittings from Parker, green fuel pressure regulator as modified by Blackwood Labs, green brackets and hold down nuts for the fuel rails, and I even have a set of green injectors to go in it once I flush and flow them. So I just want everyone to know that I am doing my part for the planet.
Jim
Jim, We are just green with envy. Long live Mother Earth. Nice work, roverman.
I had no idea the environmentalists just meant the COLOR green! Now, it makes so much more sense. ;)
Well then, that makes this car, Super Eco-friendly:
http://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/BruceWood.htm
The list of really sweet TR6s is getting quite long!
Glad y'all like the custom anodizing, I think it really adds something to the appearance of the engine whether the green eco does anything or not. Now that I've figured out how to do it there is quite a temptation to go back and anodize a lot of the smaller parts that were custom made for this upgrade but there are limitations. Cast parts do not generally take well to anodizing. Different alloys take the dyes differently, and welds are very likely to become more visible rather than less. So something like anodizing the body of the scoop would most likely be problematical because of the welds, yet with a large enough tank and power supply even the wheels could be anodized and dyed. (I could handle both of those limitations but am not eager to dismount the tires.) But it is more important to get the car back on the road. The apple polishing can wait until next winter. However, if for any reason I have to remove any of those parts, they are very likely to get anodized before they go back on.
Now some may ask, "why anodize?". I find people are not that familiar with it. Anodizing creates a fine layer of extremely hard oxide known as corundum which is just below diamond in terms of hardness and which seals and protects the aluminum beneath. It can be grown in thickness up to about 0.003" and with the right conditions can either be thick and hard or thin, transparent, and capable of holding colored dyes while still providing excellent corrosion resistance and good abrasion resistance. It is generally far superior to any available paint or coating. So for those who didn't know, now you do.
The process is simple. Hook a battery charger to the part and hang it in a bucket of battery acid for an hour, dip it in dye, then dunk it in boiling water to seal the dye in. But in reality, this is electrochemistry in application and the details will make or break the job. If anyone wants to try it I can set you on the right path, I have around a hundred bucks in it so far not counting the battery charger. There are better, easier and more expensive ways to do it but this does work.
But as much as I like the anodized bits I am far more happy with the metal shaping which got me to this point. Take note of the compound curves and organic shapes of the throttle linkage arms and the bracket that holds the TPS. These are billet pieces that show off the hand shaping that brought them to their finished condition. Small pieces of artwork in their own right, they are the jewelry pieces that put the finishing touches on the engine.
Jim
Here is the oil pump drive:
MVC-184F.JPG
MVC-185F.JPG
You can't really see it but the blade at the top is brass on one end and steel on the other. That lets there only be one blade that the sensor can see but gives balanced contact on the brass washer below and also doesn't throw off the balance. The sensor is a Ford part used on most engines between '96 and '08 so it is pretty common. It costs $25 but it doubles as a sensor and a cap which I thought was pretty slick, so I used it. Soon as I get an o-ring for it I can install that part and seal up the thermostat neck.
It has become necessary to recreate my injector test bench so that will take me off task for awhile but the new bench will be a vast improvement on the old cobbled together affair and will be capable of testing from one to eight injectors simultaneously with an easy set up in both full flow (saturated) and cycling mode with commercial grade graduated cylinders for measurement. Then I suspect I will get to negotiate with the guy I bought my injectors from but in the end I expect to have a balanced set of injectors one way or another and button up the fuel system.
In the meantime I have ordered a radiator filler neck to weld to the surge tank that is yet to be made. However I have at least decided on the design. It will be a not-so-simple rectangular box with radiused corners. Luckily I have a source somewhere for the pieces where the corners come together. Digging for that source is the next assignment. It very likely is in this thread where I made the air scoop, but if not maybe I can find it in my bookmarks.
Jim
A ratty looking MGB with a 340 in it in this issue of Hot Rod.
Just kidding about the Ratty part!
Sorry it was just an MG with a Buick engine. :)
Rumors, rumors.
Jim
Jim, there is a picture of the Roadmaster in the latest Hot Rod I got yesterday! Check it out. Mike
Cool! We're famous!
Funny though, you'd think from Longmont I' be able to see mountains.
Jim
At least they got the "sickos" part right.
BADASS.jpg
Haven't received my copy but will be looking for it now.
I think more people should submit their projects to Hot Rod, Car craft, etc. Readers get tired of Cameros and Mustangs. The editors are constantly looking for cars besides Cameros and Mustangs.
I think a group of say 3 cars submitting variations would be cool as well.
My copy was at the house when I got home. It's on pg 18. So who submitted it, Jim or Curtis? They have a bunch of other pics - one of the Hot Rod photographers took some pics at an overlook stop between Stillwater and Arlington on the last leg of the Power Tour.
I just sent them a short email to let them know it was in the power tour. Anybody recognize the photo? You know, we could do the power tour again...
Jim
There has never been a Camero in Hot Rod Magazine, Gary. ;)
HA, the spell check didn't like it either! I always said I could build a rocke-ship----I just couldn't spell it!
I've been working on the new injector test bench and have made some good progress. I now have eight toggle arms mostly made up which will mount on a hollow shaft sort of like a very large rocker shaft assembly. The arms have a socket for the top of the injector and the opposite end will have a cross pin holding a pivot block that will lock the arm down with the injector in place. A small hole runs from the injector socket to the pivot where the shaft will be fitted with an o-ring. In this way if an arm is pivoted upwards it will shut off the flow into the arm so that the arm acts as it's own shut off valve. In this way the test bench will run anywhere from one to eight injectors and each injector has a 250cc graduated cylinder positioned below it in a straight line. A simple relay set to operate as a buzzer provides a cycling test which flows about 1/3 the rate of full saturation and another switch gives full on for maximum flow testing.
I expect to make up a new frame and control box next week so maybe be the weekend will be able to test the injectors. But the problem I expect is that my set of injectors have two different flow rates when cycling even though they all have the same max flow rate, suggesting that this set of eight injectors came out of two different four cylinder engines. If so, that is clearly a problem I will have to fix.
Jim
Looks like the photo was taken at Stillwater, Oklahoma after Rob picked up the car from Bill D and myself. Glad we got some coverage in Hot Rod for all the guys that took part in the Power Tour. Jim good information on the injector tester, something I would never have thought of myself.
My first injector tester was a relay and a fitting made from brass hardware store tubing that let me spray carb cleaner through the injectors. This was back when I built the first blown and injected 215, about the time of the first Champaign MGB-V8 meet. I learned how to clean and backflush injectors with that rig and later built a sinple test bench using a junkyard Ford fuel rail that let me do flow comparisons and measurements on four injectors at once, but it was a pretty hokey setup. Safety wire held the injectors in the fuel rail, or sometimes not. As you might guess it tended to make a mess.
So aside from learning that you can change out the o-rings and inlet screens and that poor flowing injectors can be backflushed and cleaned, probably the most important thing I learned is that there can be quite a bit of variation in the fuel delivery and every set of injectors should be tested as a set. And not just for full flow but for flow under part throttle conditions.
My new bench will do that but to improve it I may at some point upgrade the driver circuit so that it will deliver any desired pulsewidth which would allow testing of the entire fuel delivery curve. Obviously for best performance you want to try to get the same amount of fuel and air to all cylinders and if you can know that the fuel delivery is exactly the same that is a big help. I believe the runner design in the intake for this engine will also give even airflow.
Jim
This guy has done some interesting fuel injection test:
http://hem.passagen.se/hemipanter/
The spray patterns of the domestic injectors that I have looked at so far, mostly Ford and some Delphi and Bosch have mostly been quite good if the injectors were clean and flowing correctly. Ofcourse I have seen some bad injectors...
Jim
Presently I prefer the 4 hole injectors and the newer small body GM injectors seem quite good. Bear in mind though that perfect atomization is not everything. In a BOP/R engine it is nearly impossible to get a straight shot at the valve opening and some of us are not yet running sequential so either way the shot is going to hit metal at some point. This is not bad if the metal has enough heat to boil or even "fry" the shot off and in fact can be a very good thing for economy and emissions. So with the right configuration a condensed or pencil shot pattern can be the best. Of course I think that usually means impinging on the back of the intake valve which for us would be very difficult.
JB
The injector bench is coming along. With luck I'll be ready to get the parts for the framework tomorrow. The toggle arms are done and there is only a little machine work left before assembling the shaft. It looks like it should work as expected and at about 26" wide will be pretty compact for a bench that will test 8 injectors simultaneously. I've just about decided to include a small cabinet in the design behind the graduated cylinder area that can be used for storage of hoses, cords, or whatever. And I need to see if I can find some sort of electrically triggered stopwatch timer, that would be a real handy thing, especially if it has a large readout.
Jim
Jim, I wish I had half of your fabrication skills! Nice work. Can't wait to see and hear the finished product.
Thanks Chris, I'm pretty eager to drive it myself.
Jim
Jim, I thought I heard that some injector strategies include a small partial shot of fuel while the intake valve is closed. The balance of the fuel in injected when the valve gets opened. I can imagine some reasons why this is done but I'm no expert so I'd only be speculating.
I suppose that would vaporize the first shot which might help economy. Probably worth playing with if you have sequential injection. It wouldn't affect max power so much since the injectors would probably be near full saturation anyway, meaning it's on nearly continuous anyway.
Jim
I've been sorting things out on the transmission controller and so far progress is good but I am relying on others to provide essential parts and information, which always causes me a little unease. The first part of board assembly is done but before I can test it I need a few upgrade parts for the tuning laptop which are on their way. I have contacted the manufacturer of the wiring harness connector that fits the transmission and requested some samples which should allow me to complete the wiring, and I have contacted the engineering department of Aisin's transmission division and hope to get the information needed to properly drive the shifting solenoids. There may also be some chance that they have a stand alone controller. I expect to speak with an applications or controls engineer in a couple days.
The injector bench has hit a snag, leaky seals on the toggle arms, but I have a new design that I think may solve the problem and will try that as soon as it warms up a little. Basically the idea is to back a hard teflon seal with a soft but resiliant one to maintain contact. If that idea does not succeed it may be time to go with external plumbing. But that is a project which will be drawn out a little anyway as the controls are developed. Right now I'm thinking about installing the spare MegaSquirt controller as an injector driver, which would allow very precise control of testing parameters as well as a datalog of the actual test itself, and with that the program could easily accumulate the injector pulses and output the expected quantity of fuel, allowing me to at least get a general idea of what the delivery curve looks like for a given injector. Then later on it might be possible to use a load cell to measure actual outputs, and at that point it becomes an auto-test routine that outputs an accurate delivery curve for each injector, making injector matching super accurate.
But that's going to take awhile.
Jim
Jim, As far a s seals on the toggle arms, perhaps a chevron lip design might work ? Chevron seals,(shape of the Chevron gas station sign), are available in teflon and other materials. These have the potential, to adjust for wear and seal drag. Cheers, roverman.
Jim is that somehting you are thinking about using a linear actuator on?
http://www.firgelliauto.com/
Um... not really Gary but I'm sure they could be useful for other things. Chevron seals aren't a bad idea, might keep them in mind for the next go around. If so it'll probably be something complex to machine though.
Jim
You know they have a feed back circuit for the linear actuators to control position.
Yes, and that could be very handy for some things. Drive by wire controls come to mind, and for throttle control where not much force is needed something like that might be suitable. It also might work for something like the hood opening mechanism where quick reaction is not a concern. If however, both quick reaction and substantil power are required there are probably better options. Worst part though, is that they look pretty clunky and we're not used to seeing things like that on automobiles. Good for door glass and such where they are hidden.
Jim
I haven't posted for awhile because first, sorting out the control electronics is not very sexy and second it took me quite a while to resolve to make the parts required for the injector bench. But today I gun-drilled a new shaft that when finished I believe will work the way I want, and I have ordered the MS-3 upgrade for the controller as well as having completed the circuit assignments for the MegaShift, all of which represents significant progress.
I've been stuck on that injector bench. I really didn't want to make the new shaft which will have independent pistons, multiple seals and springs for the 8 rockers. But today the first of the difficult operations is now complete and it is on the mill for the piston bores to be cut. A person might wonder if it is worth the effort, but being able to map out the injector delivery at part throttle can make all the difference in how the engine runs. The conventional approach would be to simply buy a new set of matched injectors. But this overlooks the vast supply of used injectors which are quite serviceable, but need to be matched in order to give optimum performance, and which are available at bargain prices. And since I'm basically such a cheap bastard this idea appeals to me even though I have to work my butt off to make it work. In short, I get a certain amount of enjoyment out of being able to make things that are unique, and I'm well past the point of feeling I have to sell my creations. It's more a matter of what I want the most.
Jim
Back again finally. I ended up punting on the injectors after all that and bought a new set of 42's. the injector bench is put away and will stay there until after the car is running and I have time to mess with it again. For now I'm back to the old plan of trying to do at least one task each day to move things along. I have the coil packs and plug wires back on, sorted out a few of the wiring harness connectors, and have made the surge tank for the cooling system. At the moment I am enlarging my anodizing setup to 5 gallon buckets so I can do the tank and maybe the pulleys. I bought some Burgundy dye from Caswell for those parts. So far I have been very pleased with the Caswell dyes, we'll see how this one comes out in a few days after the lye I ordered comes in. Anodizing current for the tank will be about 8 amps so I've had to beef up my electrical setup as well but will still be using a 12v battery to supply the current. If all goes well there, I'm actually considering anodizing the wheels. That would take a custom tank of course. And the tires would have to come back off so ... maybe.
I've not done a blessed thing on the transmission controller. Have to work back up to it I guess. But one of these days. In the meantime I'm not too far away from being able to start the engine. All of the pieces are built, and it's mostly just a matter of installing lines, connecting wiring, and things like that. All the little details that tend to drive you mad towards the end.
I'll try to post a photo of the surge tank after it's been anodized.
Jim
Such cool stuff! I'd really like to put together an anodizing system.
It's not hard. The most difficult part is deciphering all of the gobbledegook and art specific tecnospeak into plain english. Once you get past that you discover that the process itself and the chemicals used are really quite simple and easily accomplished. You do however need to be rather particular about a few things.
First, the amp loading of the surface area at around 30 mA per square inch (.030A.) which means you have to calculate the area. A little fudging is allowable but since it affects process time more accurate is better. All factors affect process time.
Bath temperature, 73 degrees F is ideal and some way of holding it within a couple degrees is really helpful. Hotter or colder gives you badly formed cells that will not hold the dye well. I use the utility sink as a water bath for the tank and use bubblers for circulation inside and out.
Acid mix of 1:1 battery acid to distilled water is a well regarded concentration of sulfuric. Up to now I've been using 2:1 but will go to the lower conc. with the larger tanks, this will undoubtedly extend the process time, perhaps doubling it from the 75 min I was running.
Cleanliness is next to godliness. Any fingerprints will not anodize. Ultrasonics are your friends but caustics can be too.
Some sort of resistor is needed to set the voltage to the neighborhood of 4-5vdc. Calculate your amp load and maintain it, and it will change as the process progresses, requiring a higher voltage.
Check part growth. Half a thousandth is about all you can expect to gain. Beyond that point you just eat the part.
Dye at 140* F for as long as you like. Quench in boiling water to seal the dye in, wipe down with clean rags, and wax. If it takes the color it is anodized.
That's about all there is to it except setting up the tanks. Hard anodizing however, is a bit more complicated.
Jim
QuoteIt's not hard. The most difficult part is deciphering all of the gobbledegook and art specific tecnospeak into plain english.
Tech Session!!!
Tech session could happen Carl.
While waiting for supplies I put the car back on the lift and tidied up a few items. One was the front brace for the mini starter. This is the same starter we used on the MG-Roadmaster and we've had some issues with breakage so I decided to go ahead and make a brace before it became a problem. Here is what I came up with: (sorry for the bad focus, I accidentally had the camera set for distance work)
MVC-231F.JPG
As you can see it is sort of shiny. I started out looking for a suitable piece of steel but the only thing the right size was a piece of stainless and I thought, "Oh well, at least I won't have to paint it." And as it got closer and closer to being finished I thought, "Well, a little grinding would get the sharp edges off." And the next thing you know I had Racoon Fever.
MVC-233F.JPG
It used to be that I was way more concerned with making the car run and handle its best and was only mildly concerned with appearance, but about six months back all that sort of changed somehow. Well you know, it's true that I do enjoy making automotive jewelry and I guess about the only excuse I have for something that will rarely if ever be seen is that I managed to get overrun by the Racoon Brotherhood.
Jim
OK, here is the surge tank I promised.
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MVC-245F.JPG
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I thought it came out pretty good, though it is far from flawless. Still, I'm thinking it isn't bad for a first try and I learned some very important things in the process. In particular, welds are almost always going to show up if you look for them even under the best of conditions. But more importantly, the filler rod you use can and will make all the difference in the world. I used 5356 and 4043. In fact, I used some of each on this piece. I still have to determine which rod did what but one of them blended in very well, while the other did not anodize at all, creating instead a sort of brown oxide layer of some sort. If you look closely you can see it in the photos. Luckily this blends in reasonably well with the burgundy dye and is mostly in less visible spots so I decided I could live with it, but on something like, well, the scoop for example, it would mean that trying to anodize the part would be a big mistake.
I think the 5356 filler is the good one but more testing and/or research can confirm that, and I do need to know because I've used the 5356 on almost all my welds up to now.
Anyway guys, Bling, Bling! Here's to all you Racoon Brothers. Enjoy!
Jim
I never cease to be impressed with your work.....
That's an extraordinary part! Sure fits the hole nicely, doesn't it. The luster you achieved is very attractive. Are there tricks to getting extra shine? Do you polish the bare aluminum before you anodize it?
I can see how a guy might get totally carried away. There's a lot of aluminum in that engine bay...
Next space shuttle coming along nicely! I bet you'll be glad when you get to fly it............................d bash
That surge tank is a really nice piece- well done!
That's looking great Jim! Nicely done!
Bill
Thanks guys, but it really isn't as nice as it looks in the pictures. For once the camera was ... what's the word? Can't think of it. Guess that tells you how often *that* happens, huh?
Curtis, the tricks are, the shinier it starts out the shinier it ends up, so polishing and buffing does pay off. But it comes out of the dye tank rather flat. Rubbing it brightens it up considerably but there is no substitute for a good coat of hard paste wax.
Jim
Two more systems completed. Oiling system finished and primed, oil pump drive installed, and cooling system completed. (no pressure check, but maybe that would be a good idea)
I'd post a shot of the thermostat neck but I'm temporarily out of cameras. Finally wore out the power switch on my old standby Mavica83 and the CanonG2 took a dump almost as soon as I got it. Luckily I just received a new G4 phone so maybe it will work well enough. I understand those have gotten quite good.
Anyway I tried anodizing the filler neck. Now these are a casting and made of some odd alloy so it did not anodize in the usual sense but instead turned dark and it only took a little of the burgundy dye. So it is a real dark gray with a slight reddish brown tint, kinda like the filler rod that didn't work out so well but with less brown. I waxed it and it looks pretty good, just different.
Next I think are the cooling lines for the transmission and the intercooler and perhaps installation of the intercooler circulation pump, though that means connections to the fuel tank. Some of the A/C lines are also on the list and sourcing and ordering several connectors. Ah the joy of the small details. Soon I'll have to launch into shifter design and not long after that it'll be back to the grind on the transmission controller. Can't put it off much longer I'm afraid.
Jim
Jim, you are one of a kind; very nice work indeed!
Here is a shot that shows several things. The thermostat neck, which being an anodized casting of indeterminate alloy came out dark, absorbed the dye strangely and turned an sort of odd purple. The drain tube of the surge tank which is the red tube below with the hose clamps on it was anodized using the exact same dye bath so it makes a good contrasting example for the differences you can see between billet or extruded aluminum and castings. Probably about as extreme of an example as we will see. Also partially obscured is the cam sensor/oil pump drive installed in the distributor hole. Due to the location of the thermostat housing above it and the height of the sensor the thermostat neck had to be ground for clearance and then filled with the TIG welder, resulting in a fairly large dimple for clearance and naturally, although you cannot see it, the filler rod anodized and absorbed the dye more like the 6061-T6 billet alloy, but the curious thing is, being intermixed with the base metal it resulted in a somewhat mottled or splotchy appearance. Being underneath and out of sight, it does not matter of course.
Also you can see the bleed fitting above the thermostat which purges bubbles to the surge tank, the pressure gage on the fuel pressure regulator, and the throttle position sensor mounted on the fuel rail and tied to the throttle linkage at the bellcrank. The bypass hose runs vertically into a fitting screwed into the top of the Buick 300 aluminum bodied water pump, leaving the usual bung free for the surge tank drain with the heater return plumbed to the usual spigot on the inlet neck, and in the foreground is the support strut for the blower drive which integrally steadies the idler pulley assembly. Also in this shot you can see the edge of the lifter valley tray or cover under the intake, which is 1/4" thick, acts as a spacer for the intake and creates an air gap below the manifold.
Jim
Thermostatneck.jpg
Just completed a rather thankless task, The floor shifter. Once again this part was made from scratch, as there isn't really a suitable one available. And sorry to say I again neglected to take photos and as the works are all pretty much hidden there isn't much point in doing it now. But having said that, it is a simple piece, if made up of a number of not quite so simple parts. In fact it looks about like any other MG floor shift other than being very short and using the old T handle from my old tranny. It has no gear position indicators, no gates, and only the detents in the transmission itself, but all it has to do is select Park, rev, neutral and Drive and the paddle shifters do the rest. I figured I'd need this before I start the engine, and maybe I'll be able to drive it a bit even without the electronic controls.
Anyway I'm getting ever closer. A few small wiring jobs (more work to get the right parts than to do the actual wiring), add fluids, and I think it will be time pretty soon. To say I'm beginning to be a little anxious about the break in run might be a little of an understatement. Anyway I've given myself until Thanksgiving to start the engine. I expect I will make the deadline this time.
Jim
Please have someone take a start up video! We all want to share that with you.
Jim,
I just found some recent photos of your build on V8Buick. You should share them here because the car is looking fantastic!
Have you started it yet?
Still dawdling, and there's one connector that won't be here until the end of Feb if then. But I hope to start it before that anyway. Sort of depends on the weather but I don't usually get a whole lot done this time of year.
OTOH, I have started back on the tranny controller and progress there is good so far. Here are some recent photos:
IMG_0001.JPG
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IMG_00032a.JPG
Jim
It's looking pretty fine Jim.
I think the picture that must have been taken through the blower hole in the hood is cool.
Not many people can say that they can do that!
I see from one of the earlier pics that you know how to cable lace. Very nice.
It's a lost art that takes some skill and patience, but looks so good when it's done well.
Shine on fellow raccoon!
Cheers
Fred
Thank you Fred, thank you very kindly.
Good news, I just finished up the circuit design work for the AA80E version of the Megashift controller, save just for biasing requirements on three inputs. So now I'll soon be able to get back to building the board. That's one mighty landmark I'm sure pleased to have behind me. Lance has said that he'll make the required programming changes but honestly I'm not too worried about it. If I have to figure that part out too I can do it and probably should anyway. I'd rather not, I think it's programmed in C++ and I'm not too familiar with it but the changes will be more along the lines of configuration than the actual writing of code so it should pretty much be cut-n-paste. In the end I was able to keep the circuits very close to the existing circuits for the earlier designs with fewer gears and still get everything I wanted, and really did not have to give up any of my original goals or compromise the design in any way. The controller is going to be usable in a standalone application if desired, and I even managed to reserve a switch input for my wish list "clutch" function, as well as a button to activate Auto mode and then act as a downshift button. I think this is going to be pretty exciting to play with.
Jim
Got some news today anyway. Meekums has come to life. Only for maybe a minute or so at most. The ammeter showed serious discharging and I shut down once I saw that, so I'll have to check polarity on the rectifier, and the sound was pretty gargly and raspy so there's work to be done. But the response to light throttle seemed quite good in spite of that and overall it sounded... well I don't know that I'd use the word dangerous exactly... stirring perhaps? But of course all that may change with tuning.
Anyway there's a great deal to be done between now and the first drive, and I'll try to set up a camera soon. It's just that I have to learn a new skill and already have other demands on my time and abilities. But I'll try.
Jim
Jim, that's pretty exciting news! Glad you hear you're making progress.
Scott
Thanks. I've started it 3 or 4 times now for short runs at break in speeds and it has sounded a little better each time but it's running way rich so something isn't right with my injector map. Timing seems reasonably close though for now, not having put a light on it yet.
I tried shifting it into gear to see if the 8 speed would "limp" without any electrical power. Nothing there so it won't be moving under it's own steam for awhile yet.
But, I woke up this morning wanting to hear it run again. I think that's a pretty good sign.
Jim
Video please
Exciting update Jim. Now that you have your motivation back, keep them coming!
Yes, yes, I know. I should be able to shoot something this weekend. I barely had time this morning to listen to it run for maybe a minute before it was off to other necessities. But so far it is sounding better every time I get to start it up so I hope it will continue to smooth out until it's running steadily on all cylinders. It has sat for a very long time.
I need to make some adjustments before next time and tomorrow will be a busy day again, and then I need to learn how to shoot a video with my Canon G11. I'm pretty sure it'll do that but I've never tried to do it. So anyway I'd not really expect to see anything before Saturday.
Jim
Got a video now, but haven't figured out how to post it. It's 179MB, 2:09 long. No idea what the pixel count is.
Jim
YouTube it, then embed it here.
Don't know how to embed it but at least here's the link.
<iframe width="480" height="270" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wkoF2ylFfbU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkoF2ylFfbU&feature=youtu.be
You got. Sounds great!
Sweet!!!!
Very nice!!
CONGRATS!!! Jim. I'm looking forward to the tranny and paddle shifter!
Sounds phenomenal. Very smooth. Looks great too. Your machining skills are envied!
Congrats Jim, that sounds really good!!
Bill
Rock and roll!
Nice sounding 340 fly catcher you have there :-). Congrats Jim on the video. This needs to be posted in the video section please!
Would I embarass myself by admitting to knowing that the music Jim has on in the background is Mike & the Mechanics?
Thanks for all the kind comments, that means a lot.
So today I decided to try and see if I could get the wheels to move under engine power with the car on the lift. I've got the idle down to about 1300 now and should be able to get it lower as I work on the tune, particularly the IAC bins which so far I haven't even touched. In fact I suspect the whole tune which was the one left over from the 215 blower motor may be a little knackered, and I need to migrate to TunerStudio anyway. But regardless, I fired up the engine and put it in reverse then blipped the throttle some and by golly the tires began to rotate. Put it in drive and got them to go the other way. Put on the brakes and... they didn't do much. need a little attention there likely as not.
But this is great news. It means that, likely as not the car will move itself in limp mode without any power to the transmission. Sometime after I get a bit more tuning done I will test that out. It'd be great if I could actually drive it a bit, I'd love to be able to take it out on the road if only for a drive around the block.
Jim
Great news indeed!
BTW, I think you're gonna like TunerStudio.
Jim,
Double check that alternator belt.
Progress has been kinda slow because of other demands but there has been a little, and I've identified several things that will have to be done.
Charging. The alternator and rectifier part works well but the regulator doesn't. Not sure why exactly, it tests good and appears to be wired correctly, but is more complex than it has to be. The regulator is from a Japanese alternator and has a center tap to the stator windings which I added to tie into the root of the wye and it could just be that the alternator it came from had an electrically unbalanced stator. Not knowing the internal circuitry it's impossible to say. I used that one for compactness, a usable shape, and because of the sealed connector, but I'm now thinking about just using one of the old Mopar regulators because it is so simple and rugged. I'll probably stop by Hamilton's and see what they think might work, maybe they have something better. Worst case, I use the GM part which is a weird shape and uses spade lugs. But at least it is small and electrically matches.
Cooling: Fan control is somewhat lacking, one more incentive to complete the upgrade from MS2 to MS3. I'm not too happy with the small control switch mounted on the surge tank, it doesn't seem reliable. I also have a small antifreeze leak at the thermostat neck which is a larger concern, perhaps welding distorted the flange on the intake, or I didn't get a good job with the sealant.
Oil: The leak under the intake is still there and could mean I'll have to pull the intake. Not a small job.
Noise: Looks like I may have a bad bearing in the belt drive so I'll have to pull that down and check. Might be a good opportunity to anodize the idler pulleys.
PCV: I enlarged the ends of the big breather tube from 5/8 to 3/4 for a tighter fit in the end boots but there is an issue with idle speed control that I haven't gotten sorted out yet. I may be drawing excess air through the PCV system, or I may have an air leak somewhere in the intake.
So I've now got 4 reasons to pull the intake manifold, and that may be a winter job. For now I'd like to get the smaller issues sorted and get close on the tuning. I did finally switch over to TunerStudio but had to overcome my increasing reluctance to deal with software issues. Fixing the mismatch between controller and Laptop was not so hard, but as is usually the case figuring out how was confusing. In the end it was just a matter of finding the right .ini file which it turns out I have a copy of on the desktop, and dropping that in the TS directory. Seems to me the TS software could have done a global search and found that, so I've sent Phil Tobin a suggestion about it and maybe that improvement will be made and could help others.
I've been doing short runs to try and resolve some of these issues and I've been making some progress but it's been a sort of scattered approach and it's hard to see progress, but I'd like to eliminate all the potential vacuum leak sources I can, get the charging working, get the fans working better, and then I'll be ready to see if it'll move itself, although if I need the lift before I get that stuff done I might change that order.
On the vacuum though:
1) IAC - It is leaking air at idle. Either it is not set right, is not wired right, or is not seating right. (new valve)
2) PCV - How much air is getting through the crankcase? (Is air being pulled past the crankcase seals? or is there a leak somewhere? I should probably start a thread on this topic.)
3) Manifold leak? - Is air getting in through some other route such as the intercooler core or a vacuum or sensor connection? Is there a gasket leak?
So, doesn't look hopeful for driving it this summer and the quantity of work is daunting. I seem to have slowed down. But I hope to at least get far enough along to install the transmission controller and do some testing of that before bad weather sets in.
Jim
Ok, I'm confused... If not running this summer, what's the video you posted today?
Where did he post the video, Rob? Jim was on a big adrenaline rush the other night. He got the monster to move under it's own power, transmission in "limp" mode. He told me he kicked the tail out a little....some limp, huh?
Doesn't your brother share anythiong with you?
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?40,2753363
It is also posted in our video link here in BV8!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qnE6WN2uXPU
Thanks for sharing that, Graham. I don't regularly visit the mgexperience website, so I didn't know about the video. He did call me though.
Saw it....lookin' good!
Really love the title in that link. I almost posted with just( ! )until I saw the video. Sounds Great!
Not sure what Graham & Calvin did, but whenever I load the last page (26) of this thread the audio portion of Jim's video comes on automatically without showing the video. Weird.
QuoteHe got the monster to move under it's own power, transmission in "limp" mode.
If that was limp mode, fully operational is going to be too much fun!
Incremental progress and all that you know, I've got the wiring done underneath and today reduced the number of remaining loose ends from 18 to 14 and organized the others, and I'm planning to take on one or more of the remaining wires at a time until they are all connected. I've taken care of a couple minor issues like the leaky thermostat neck, the PCV plumbing, and the alternator, (found a really cool small chrome plated adjustable external voltage regulator made to be mounted on the outside of an early delco for under $40) and the noise from the serpentine drive turned out to be where the belt was stepped over one groove on one of the pulleys so that is fixed now.
Still a lot to be done but I should be able to finish up while waiting for spring.
Jim
Make that 14 loose ends that you have identified so far :-). Can't wait to see a video of that thing under full power.
How true. But those 14 at least are wires. Only thing is, they mostly need a little extra, like the LED display for the 4 gear position output lines, or the paddle shifters for the two up/down shift lines. I'd love to have a segmented digital display for the indicator but it's more likely I'll just find a spot to stick 4 LED lights and let it go at that, at least for now. Anyway I'm not that far off being able to test the jumper pins in the controller and apply power and then it's programming and tuning.
Plus of course going back and sorting out that mysterious oil leak. But I'll worry about that after it gets warm.
Jim
Found a neat little 7 segment display module that I think will fit in the brake warning/test switch that is on the left side of the dash. Right now it has a red LED for the wideband O2 sensor behind the red window and that will stay. What I intend to do is put the numerical display right beside it by cutting out part of the black insert that was used as a switch. I found two that were usable and ordered both, one is yellow and the other is blue (didn't consider red, really was looking for green but no joy there) the number is 9/16" tall. In case anyone wants to know, the yellow is: HDSP-5703, blue is: LTS-5503AB and the driver to run them from a digital input is: CD4511BE. The driver accepts from 3 to 20vdc, -5 to +5v on the inputs and powers the LED module directly so no resistors are needed. Pretty cool I think. I'll have to talk Lance into programming the BCD outputs for it on 3 lines instead of discrete on 4 lines but that shouldn't be too involved I wouldn't think.
Jim
Found something else pretty cool. It's a 2 channel touch sensor circuit on a narrow PCB that takes external pick-ups. Nice lady at the company said they had a sample they could send me. Apparently it is designed to go inside a car door handle to lock and unlock the door (not sure exactly how they planned to do that though without some sort of ID code but I guess it could work with an RFID device) It is a capacitive unit that supposedly can work through gloves, so I'll see when it gets here. If it works well, I may have paddle shifters that don't even have to move to shift. Just a touch. The board will easily fit inside the steering column.
Jim
Glad to see you have been able to make some time to work on the B!
Bits 'n pieces. You get to a point in a long project where it isn't done but the work you are doing on it, is because it needs to be done not because you enjoy it. At that point the project isn't any fun anymore and you just want to get done with it. How you handle this low point can make or break a project and often does. But there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Some will power on through and get it done just on sheer force of will, some will take shortcuts and just get the danged thing running, and some, like me, need to just back away from it until the creative urge returns. Sometimes that takes awhile too and it isn't an especially easy thing to manage. On the whole it seems there may be some advantage to walking away at the first sign of discontent so that the breaks are short, but there really are points where you don't feel like you can do that. Let's say you just tore down the transmission for instance with all those weird parts that fit together strange. Do you really want to leave it like that for a week or more before trying to put it back together? No. Not unless your day job is rebuilding transmissions, and that can sometimes be a mild example.
The transmission control part of this build has been like that though, and there have been points where my only real choice was to walk away. One thing I have learned is that if I hit a snag it often works better to just put down my tools at that point and wait for inspiration. Sometimes that takes awhile. Sometimes it doesn't. But the results are always better than if I forge ahead. OTOH, it's a big reason why it's taking so long. That and the fact that this is a Bigjob. If I stopped to add up the parts of it that are also Bigjobs I'm not sure I'd even want to know the talley.
So anyway, the display modules came in along with the driver chips. I have one ready to mount the chip to the back of it with a dab of silicone sealant, will wire it up and test it before fitting it to the switch housing. It looks like it will fit in nicely. The one thing that is an issue though (isn't there always that one thing?) is that I seem to remember that the O2 sensor needs a calibrate switch of some sort. The test switch for the brakes was still active, wired across the LED for the wideband O2 sensor and I probably had it that way to use as the calibrate switch. Well it's gone now, it was in the way. Which means I need to go back and study the wiring for the O2 sensor controller and come up with a compact pushbutton switch that will fit in between the LED and the numeric display. Space is tight but maybe I can come up with a miniature that will work. Always fun, eh? These little details are why the 90/90 rule applies. 90% of the time is needed to get the job 90% done and then 90% is needed to finish it.
Can't wait to see what the touch sensor board looks like. That will potentially add a great deal of simplification to my paddle shifter assembly.
Jim
Jim B, since I started doing this kind of enjoyment, which began a looooooong time ago, I have adopted an attitude, "I do not have to do this, I do this because I want to". I did our B 20+ years ago when my company was forced, to stay alive, make several tough decisions. I now look back and understand why I did what I did to the "B". I now drive my therapist and enjoy the results of my therapy. I like you have walked away for some time to recollect myself and my thoughts, then return with a new outlook and finish the project.
Jim, your display of deversity sometimes amazes even me.
O btw I feel anyone should be able to spell any word in the American language at least two ways.
Regards
charles
Pretty sure it is just a contact to ground for the sensor, and it has to be exposed to fresh air to calibrate, which means removed from the pipe. That shouldn't have to happen very often. Do you even need a button, and if you do, it could be someplace harder to access than right on the dash so it wouldn't get bumped/pushed by accident or curious folks.
Charles, I like your insistence on unique ways of looking at things. Sorta helps keep the youngster alive you know?
Dan, do you recall if it was the lead to the LED that gets grounded to calibrate? I kinda suspect it was.
Jim
Yes, the LED goes from the calibration wire to ground. So does the button.

A little more progress today, thankfully. By now I finally have all of the wires routed and sheathed and can concentrate on the terminations. The display is coming along well, the assembled piece should look almost like the original brake warning switch but I still need to wire the chips and test them. I burned up the first one and I'm waiting on some clip leads to get here. The capacitive touch sensor came in and should be pretty slick, it can pick up a finger touch with gloves on. So I finally got around to bending the 1/4" titanium rod for the paddles. Each one looks sort of like a deformed D or a bean and will make up a little less than 1/2 of a 9-1/4" circle which will sit about 1-1/2" forward of the steering wheel rim. I'll weld these rods to a pair of flat plates that will bolt to the face of each cowl half. Another plate on the inside will sandwich the plastic and give a place to attach the wire to the sensor, which will lay inside the cowling. I ran the +5Vdc line from the transmission controller up to power it so I won't have to worry about exceeding the voltage limits. I have to wait on some Ti sheet and filler wire before I can finish that part.
So anyway, a little bit closer. I'll try to post some photos once I get the paddles made.
Jim
Jim,I just went back and listened to your start-up. Just simply a beautiful sound.
charles
Thanks Charles. It's been too cold to start it for awhile and I spent today on wiring. But soon I hope. There's definitely less to do than there was.
Jim
Here's my new "Piranha" grille:
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IMG_0003.JPG
IMG_0002.JPG
Jim
Nice!
That is one scary Piranha! Plan to pump up those air bags a wee bit?
That looks like a nice meal for a speed bump! How tall is your radiator?
I've upgraded the air pump and plan to add a reservoir and solenoid valves so I can get fast ride height changes (and no Carl, I won't be "hopping" it). Yes the spoiler is a smidgen low but once the car is leveled a bit I think it'll be fine. The radiator is 17 x 32 if memory serves, same as in the MG-Roadmaster but mounted nearly 1" lower to give room for the A/C and I/C condensers stacked in front of it. Right now I'm working on the tilt/trim pump (old style Mercruiser) which will power the bonnet lift cylinders. Haven't any of you guys messed with the pressure relief valves in one of those have you? It looks needlessly complicated, with 3 internal and 1 external adjustments.
Still work to do on the spoiler actuators too.
Jim
So I've been working on the hydraulics. No, not the brakes, the lift system for the bonnet. You may recall that I had an old left over Mercruiser Tilt/Trim hydropack which I cannibalized and stuffed into the passenger's side dogleg in the trunk behind the rear tire. For the past week I've had that on the bench sorting out the pressure relief and valving. I made a new external port block and have replaced the internal springs with lighter ones and am now down to 500psi open and 400 psi latching pressures (the pressure is maintained on power off). That's still a little high for my cylinders, I think they are rated for 250 but the #2 lines will be a restriction and my best approach may be to add a pressure relief at the front so I can control the opening and closing rate with the line pressure and then limit the final pressure at the cylinders. But that sounds overly complex and it might be better to just lower the output further and see how fast it operates. The good news is that there is now a cylinder available that is rated for 1300psi at a reasonable cost, so if performance is disappointing I can upgrade.
Is this getting me any closer to Indy? Well, sort of. Having the bonnet lift and the wing attitude adjust working is not as important certainly as tuning the engine and transmission controllers, but then again, I'm not going to drive the car any distance with the wing set to full downforce, and I just simply *want* the bonnet lift to work instead of continuing to raise it by pulling on the front edge of the blower cutout. The grille obviously was necessary to protect the radiator, and so the bumper could be mounted. Unlike some, I'm just not comfortable without them, sometimes I nudge things. (Just fair warning, I don't generally do it intentionally.)
With a little less than 2 month left I feel pretty comfortable that I can make it and will if I can. But if the car isn't quite ready to travel, at least the trailer has new tires.
Jim
Great news! Sounds like the list is getting shorter. Can't wait to see you and your car in Indy.
Capt'n
QuoteWith a little less than 2 month left...
Geez, my math is a little more optimistic!!
78 days, Jim. ;)
Really? I never was good with calendars. Wow, what a relief! I might even have time to install the new air pump...
But before that I suspect I'd better get Lance started on the code mods for the tranny controller.
...and then there is still that oil leak to track down.
I want to thank you guys SO much for giving me this extra time!
Jim
You're Welcome Jim, I can not think of anyone more deserving than you,"piece of cake" :-)
So... it isn't looking good for Indy at the moment. I just spent the last week or so putting in the hydraulic plumbing for the bonnet lift and am not real happy with the results. At low pressure I got nada. So I bumped the pump back up to about the original settings, in this case 2500psi on latch and 2000psi on lift. At those pressures movement was still slow but acceptable, but the pump kept cutting out. Then completely unexpectedly I blew out one of the lift cylinders. Cheap junk anyway right? The baffling thing was that it blew the shaft bushing clean out of the body! Now how the heck does that happen when you're pushing on the other side of the piston??
So I ran some pressure checks. Turns out that #2 line is WAY more restrictive than I counted on, and pressure buildup just from the return line restriction was around 1500psi when I made a loop at the front and connected the gage up there. Well clearly that won't do.
My first thought was to just order up a pair of higher pressure wing cylinders, after all the ones that run off the PS pump are rated for 1300Psi and should work OK. But NO! My cylinders are 8" and the shortest ones available in the higher rating are 10". RATS! (Maybe I can get a pair of "specials"?)
So I ordered 50' of 3/16" Ni/Cu brake line. Guess I'll rip the 1/8" stainless lines back out and make 'em bigger. Mo' money, Mo' time. Hey, it was worth the experiment anyway, but that 1/8" line is just too small. Who'd a thunk it? Sure was fun to run such itty bitty line though.
I'm better off not working to a deadline anyway. Besides, I've got a snow blower to build. That has to be done before it snows again... ACK!! Another DEADLINE!!! YEESH!!
As for Indy, I expect we'll hop in Matt's car and head up. If the MG is far enough along we might trailer or flat tow it but I'm pretty sure it won't be ready to drive that far.
Jim
Any progress to share on the car this weekend, or are you guys going to just focus on the chump car?
We did exclusively work on the racer and I've some photos to upload to that thread later, but I can also do a progress update here as there have been some new developments. First, I was able to get some high pressure wing cylinders for the bonnet lift. I called KSE and it just happened that they had done a run of 18 units to fill an order from Australia and I was able to piggy back onto that order. So I now have a set of their 1300 psi rated cylinders mounted. I was able to adjust the hydropak down to about 900 psi and now have it mounted and plumbed with 1/4" line all the way up to the bulkhead connectors at the cylinders and was waiting on more fittings to add the last 4 short lines. Then I'll be able to test it and provided that works as expected I can then run the control wires and install a switch. At the same time I ran new lines in NiCop and stainless for the air bag front suspension. Starting from the bulkhead fitting by the compressor I have 3/16 NiCop line running to a quick disconnect (for aux air and aux filling) then to the front crossmember where it transitions to some 1/8" stainless line. The 1/8" line is wound into a pair of springs which lay next to the lower control arm pivots and connect to the air bags, allowing for suspension motion while plumbing all the way with high pressure hard line. Another 1/8" line runs inside to the gage. It's now been pressurized for 3 weeks and the gage reading hasn't dropped. In fact the only variations I've seen have been both up and down and are attributed to the ambient temperature. Since bag wear has been a concern with these installations I have lined the recess in the crossmember with a thin teflon sheet bolted in place. The small line also acts as a restriction against air flow from one side to the other during cornering. Once I have the new pump plumbed in and electrically connected I will locate another switch to operate it somewhere in the dash.
Then there is the wing plumbing. Recalling that the car now has IRS, the wing control is more complex than a simple link to the differential and the motions of both sides of the suspension need to be averaged into the wing angle of attack. To do this I'm using a motion cylinder on each lower control arm and a wing cylinder on each wing support. The motion cylinders are plumbed together and then to the wing cylinders, with reservoirs to handle expansion and I have a small electric peristaltic pump to control the wing angle. I've been working on mounting everything and should get back on that tomorrow. As of now I have the motion cylinders mounted and have all the fittings on hand so it should go pretty smoothly, though I do not know how much pressure the small pump will tolerate. I'm thinking probably not much so it should be interesting to see how well it all works.
That leaves the intercooler pump and plumbing for the next job, but soon I hope to be able to get back to tuning the engine.
Here is a photo of the upper motion cylinder mounts:
IMG_0058.JPG
Jim
Word on the street is that Jim has a new development on the B.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHTIFziaQV4&feature=youtu.be
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oHTIFziaQV4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Very nice!
OMG it's a Transformer!
That is very cool!!!
Wow! The Mad Scientist in his lair!
I've made a bit of progress.
Most recent has been work on the wing. Because of the IRS I had to redesign the actuating mechanism. In doing so I needed something that would combine and take the average of wheel movement and convert it to wing movement, and a mechanical linkage seemed way too cumbersome given that the wing is mounted on the trunk lid which has to open normally. So I went to hydraulics, which makes the motion conversion easier and gives on-the-fly wing angle adjustment, but adds the complication of another hydraulic system, and which is a bit tricky in terms of pressure and balance.
So anyway, the use of hydraulics meant mounts had to be built into each of the side struts and to do that the entire structure had to be dismantled. The job cascaded, as they often do, all the way down to the strut mount cushions. While apart I polished and buffed all the stainless parts, buffed the aluminum aerodynamic struts and then anodized them to a burgundy that is a close match to the car color. Not perfect but pretty darned good for an amatuer. I just got it all back together except for the top mounts for the wing cylinders and some of the plumbing. I'll try to post a photo soon. Along with the rest of the plumbing I still need to build a 2 chamber reservoir and test the balance pump which is a small peristaltic unit I'm going to try. It will shift fluid from one chamber to the other to change the wing angle. The challenge is setting a static system pressure that will give the needed system stiffness without blowing out the balance pump. Amazing how tricky these things can become.
The other big development was that I trailered the car down to the annual Megasquirt Megameet in South Carolina last month, where we took it off the trailer and I had the benefit of a couple of experts setting up the initial parameters and evaluating the system. I learned a few important things from this. First, that my coolant temp sensor is not providing a reliable signal, meaning of course that while we had the startup settings working perfectly once the engine is warmed up, it will not do so well cold, until I have that problem fixed. They felt it was a grounding issue.
Grounding the Megasquirt system turns out to not be quite as straightforward as one might think.
The goal is to isolate signal grounds from output grounds and from all the automotive noises that travel back on the return path from every other electrical component in the car. Some of these components, (such as motors, ignition, and alternator) make a LOT of noise.
So here is the basic idea, and it can be used for the sound system as well: The MS has multiple ground leads coming off the controller. It is an easy mistake to tie all of these grounds to our chassis ground point. Instead, the idea is to isolate one lead and tie that to a ground lead that goes all the way back to the battery independently of all other grounds, Then use that lead to provide a ground for all of the sensors. You see what we are doing here? We are giving the sensors an independent path all the way back to the battery post. If the battery has double posts (top and side) even better.
The rest of the MS ground leads can be tied to chassis ground along with the ground strap going to the engine and this provides the ground path for all the outputs and carries all of the noise, thereby isolating it from the inputs. It's not absolutely perfect of course, you have a tie-in at the card junction between the grounds and also at the battery, but since all current flow not generated by the MS is now bypassing the controller power leads it will help a lot. And just maybe that will resolve my noise issues on the CLT temp sensor leg.
That is something I hope to resolve next week. Then it's on to checking the MegaShift inputs and outputs. Plus plumbing of course and then more tuning. After that, plumbing the intercooler, fixing the oil leak, and then the initial A/C plumbing. Still a ways to go, but at least it'll be driveable before too much longer and should be able to make the BritishV8 meet in spring.
Jim
Are the output grounds for a digital signal or are most of these simply a fairly consistent output ( such as temp gauge )?
If the signal is a fairly steady DC, you should also be able to series an inductor / parallel some caps, yes?
You can always add a filter network, even for an AC signal. Capacitance and inductance in the proper values and the right configuration will allow the desired signal to go through and the filter can be designed with a sharp frequency cutoff that excludes just about everything else. It takes a bit of math and the right sized components, in extreme cases even the creation of what is called a "tank" circuit which is nothing more than a resonant or ringing circuit made up of one inductor and one capacitor. But the goal here is to avoid the noise in the first place so that you don't have to take any sort of extreme measures, which should not be necessary anyway if the wiring is done right to start with.
Jim
OK, then that is the same thing I was thinking.
Jim, how about adaptive speed bump sensors that will raise the car when you approch the speed bumps.
Of course it could be done. But why? If you raise the ride height don't you also raise the spring rate and make the ride over the bump more harsh? Perhaps it would be better to just slow down a bit as the gods intended. Anyway it's probably a bit above my pay grade, doing such complicated stuff. Now if it's more a question of grinding off bits of the car on the bump, maybe the ride's already a bit lower than it should be, or the bits hang down a bit farther than they should. Is it that your bits are just too big? Maybe a large hammer could remedy that.
I do have a picture as promised, everything above and below the trunk is now complete. It's the part in the middle that still needs work
Jim
003a.JPG
In the Pantera I have the distributorless ignition. It the pick up on the timing wheel I was getting interferance from the starter motor. I ended up putting a steel plate between the two which seemed to solved the issue. If it is passing near a starter/alternator wire it just might needed a shielded wire.
Got most of the noise out of the CLT sensor by changing the grounds but in the last datalog I noticed some very strange waveforms on the CLT trace. Almost digital in nature, abrupt but very uniform spikes and changes in level. May be nothing to be concerned about, or may be something I have to track down. I suppose I can look for another trace with similar changes.
Anyway, I've about finished the wing reservoir but I'm waiting for some low viscosity (wicking) loctite to treat the welds before mounting and plumbing it. It came out pretty good, with a concealed chamber in the base for the wing attitude pump.
I'm psyching myself up for the wiring checks on the MegaShift controller, which is the last step before the software revisions, and in the meantime I still have intercooler plumbing to do and a pump to mount.
Jim
I am sure you have covered it but your engine grounds need to be good too; otherwise everything is going to find some pretty screwy paths.
Yeah, that's all solid. I saw the signals clean up remarkably when I installed the separate instrument ground post, with a lead directly to the battery ground. But I just noticed these new blips. I'm going to watch that signal for awhile before I assume it actually is noise on the CLT sensor line though. Could have been something like a glitch in the datalog file.
Jim
I've been working on the MegaShift transmission controller installation pretty steadily since my last post and made much progress. But there is more to do. As it stands today, the paddle upshift does not yet work (appears to be a coding issue that Lance will look at), my brake sense input appears to be a signal mismatch which I can fix, the gear readout has a mismatch, possibly an incorrect ground reference or similar, I have to verify the CANbus communication between the MegaSquirt and the MegaShift, and I really should come up with a way to probe the solenoid outputs before firing the beast up. Maybe another month's worth of work.
Also, I need to make a separation tank to take the output of the intercooler condenser and plumb in those lines before I can use heavy throttle for more than a second or two. And there are a few other more minor issues.
I don't really expect to be driving the car to Townsend, shakedown is likely to take me beyond that. But I do expect to make Louisville with it, and to be driving it this summer.
Jim
RE: But I do expect to make Louisville with it, and to be driving it this summer.
Bet you're excited by that Jim. It's been a long time coming; I'm sure you have withdrawals!! You've done so many cool things with this upgrade; it's going to be awesome.
Thanks Rob.
Still got a crooked body, but for now I don't care, I just want to drive it. Anyway the car always was something of a beater and may always be. For the way I drive it though that is appropriate.
Jim
Two steps forward and three steps back.
I'm down to the gear indicator, CANbus, a bit of programming and testing before I can do any driving. Plus hooking up the intercooler before I can drive it hard. But, my digital readout for the gear indicator is broken. As in, demolished during disassembly because it wasn't working right. Including the housing. And since that was made out of the old brake indicator/light/switch there's nothing for it but to find another one. I'm certain I have one here somewhere but it hasn't turned up in the usual places so a whole house search and spring cleaning is on out in the Lab (which actually needs that rather badly anyway) to see if I can locate it. Since that might easily take 2 or 3 weeks and then I'll have to build a new indicator in it, well let's just say Townsend is definitely off the table. Louisville is a maybe but that sort of depends on what turns up in the programming and testing. One possibility that looms hidden in the background is that I could have to learn C++. I hope not, but I have to recognize the possibility. Hey, could be an entirely new career direction, right? Just in time to retire. ;-)
I'll get it done someday. I just don't know when.
Jim
Hey Jim,
I got a ROUNDTUIT if that will help. I can bring it to Townsend and let you borrow. I would just give my ROUNDTUIT to you but what would I do then when the time comes for me to say "I will do it when I get a ROUNDTUIT", I will never get it done.
charles
I got him covered. ;)
(https://marklabutis.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/roundtuitback.jpg)
Did I ask for a roundtuit? I don't think so. Used to have one I carried in my pocket and it made no difference at all. That ain't it. Nothing I can do will get Lance over the flu any quicker, and all the searching in the world won't turn up that spare brake switch/lamp for the dashboard until it's ready to be found. It's on the to-do list right along with about two dozen other things and a round tuit isn't going to knock even one of those things off the list. I am functioning at maximum efficiency. Today that means taxes. Yesterday it meant plumbing. Tomorrow it will mean something else. Maybe mowing if it is warm. Somewhere along the line the switch will be found, whenever it is ready to be found. I don't think it cares one bit whether I have a Round Tuit or not. :-p
Jim
Agreed,
no roundtuit required in your case Jim.
What you need is my new book, The Procrastinators Guide to Tomorrow.
It should be ready soon.
Helps slow things down a little :-)
Fred
Oh, very funny Fred. Ha, floompin ha. :-p
It's not roundtuits and it's not procrastination. I'm about as busy as a 4 legged ape (see if you can figure that one out). I'm operating at my optimum ratio of work v downtime and without more downtime I just can't get any more work done. Unfortunately sleep counts as downtime. And the MG ranks below certain essentials like keeping the living quarters livable and such. As much as there is on the list ahead of it I'm lucky to get anything done on it at all but I still try to accomplish something every day. Sometimes that stretches into every couple of days, or every few days, but rarely goes a week unless it's a vacation week. But there's also a list on the MG of things that have to be done, first to be able to take it out on the street, then to drive it hard, then to go any distance from home, and lastly for appearances. I may not be able to complete that last list in my lifetime, there are so many things ahead of that, but the car has been a "beater" from the day I bought it so what else is new? I'm pretty comfortable with that usually, other than Show days. But then I never was much of a one for appearances.
Jim
So I'm cooling my heels waiting for a new brake warning light/switch to arrive but not real inclined to do much in this nasty weather anyway. Still haven't found the spare but the new one will have a shiny new bezel which is about the only part I will use anyway so at least that part is good even if the extra cost was not. There simply wasn't any more practical way of dealing with it.
I do have a few other details to see to, putting the air compressor in the trunk and hooking that up for instance, or plumbing the lines for the intercooler and AC condensers. For the IC I'm designing a header tank to work as a fluid/air separator so that only liquid is pumped to the evaporator and vapors are returned to the tank. That is going to be a slick tubular tank about 1-1/2" in diameter and over a foot tall with a bend in the middle and it will mount to the outside of the radiator support rail in the wheelwell. The condenser line will come in about the middle, the suction line to the pump will come out the bottom, and the top will be to the fuel return line. The existing return from the FPR will go to the inlet side of the condenser, since that fuel will have some heat in it from pumping and from being circulated through the fuel rails on top of the engine. That way the EFI system will continuously supply fluid to the IC system, which will provide the return path to the tank and also cool the fuel to ambient.
The IC pump will circulate a much higher volume of fluid in a loop through the evaporator and condenser and when I install the MS-III update will be switched on automatically based on TPS, MAP, and temp inputs. Not much to add there to enable that, the same controller will handle the radiator fans. Since pressure in the system will be essentially atmospheric it will not affect fuel rail pressure. Heat absorbtion will occur right at the phase change temperature of the fluid so the heat transporting capacity of the fluid will be quite high and should cool the blower exhaust pretty effectively. When the MS-III goes in it will have inputs for the thermocouples so I can monitor temps above and below the IC core.
That's about all I have for right now. The wing system is working, though I had to add an o-ring to the shaft of one of the upper cylinders to eliminate a small leak. If I have any more troubles with that I can switch to the new 1300 psi cylinders on top. The bottom may be a bit more interesting. At present I have no cockpit wing attitude adjustment as the peristaltic pump idea didn't pan out but I can sort that out later. Everything else seems to be working, including the bonnet lift and the air suspension which is holding pressure perfectly, though I do need to order a helicoil kit for the fitting on the compressor.
I estimate another 2-3 weeks to get the gear display back in operation and maybe by then I'll have heard something from Lance. If not, I expect I'll be studying C++ and relying on Matthew to review my syntax and look for program errors. He is good at that sort of thing.
Jim
So. Buy an almost thirty dollar switch and when it comes in promptly whack it to bits and discard all but one piece. Who'd do such a thing.
Well me obviously. Nothing left but the plastic housing with even the copper bits and rivets gone. All off in the trash. Well, I did keep the wee bulb but I don't know why I bothered. Not that I can expect to use it for anything. Has a nice shiny chrome plated bezel though, long as it doesn't peel off.
So it's a start for my new gear display. Need to fit the opening with a bit of smoked plastic, find spots for the micro switch, 7 segment numerical LED and 16 pin driver chip, wire it all up and I should be back to business. Only a 2-3 hour job you might expect but no more today I wouldn't think. Maybe some tomorrow.
Tried to post you a picture but technology has defeated me. But have no fear! I am exchanging the iphone for a Windows phone in another day or three and maybe I will be able to resize my photos then. Or I may have to just use my regular camera. But anyway, sorry. No picture.
Jim
Windows phone?! I hope Matthew wouldn't let you do that! If you meant an Android phone, well, Google won't be happy with what you just called their mobile operating system. ;)
http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10864034/windows-phone-is-dead
Actually, Matthew has had a windows phone for almost 3 years now and loves it. I think his uses windows 8 but they've recently gone to windows 10. Mine is a Nokia Lumina 640, I think it uses 7/8. The Nokia phones are pretty bulletproof so that's a draw. The $30 price was too. Not bad for a device with a 1.8G quad core processor. And I'm a lot more comfortable with windows than I am with Android and iphone, of which I've had both. They are just fine as long as you do regular stuff but just as soon as you want to do anything out of the ordinary it seems you run into walls. At least with windows there is always a workaround.There probably isn't a more sophisticated OS around, and with microsoft now putting their name on the phone I wouldn't expect any hardware/software conflicts either. Phones have now become full featured computers, with the power to run full featured operating systems, so why not take advantage of that?
Have you heard of any problems with windows phones?
Incidentally, I did a bit of trimming of the switch housing yesterday and have the beginning of a plan to install the new innards. I expect to make this version of the DRO much more robust.
Jim
Problems? Yes don't get used to your new phone. It is going the way of the Dodo bird.
QuoteMicrosoft only sold 4.5 million Lumia devices in the recent quarter, compared to 10.5 million at the same time last year. That's a massive 57 percent drop. Even a 57 percent increase wouldn't be enough to save Windows Phone right now.
Microsoft and Nokia have sold a total of 110 million Windows Phones compared to 4.5 billion iOS and Android phones in the same period. IDC recently reported that 400 million phones were sold in the recent quarter, meaning just 1.1 percent of them were Lumia Windows Phones.
QuoteDiehards can (and will) disagree, and Microsoft at least has given Windows Phone acolytes a gift in the form of the Lumia 950 and 950XL. But if you're recommending a smartphone to someone in 2016, Android and iOS can do pretty much anything that anyone needs to be able to do. Windows Phone and BlackBerry 10 cannot, and they're best left to people who care more about brand loyalty than functionality.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/02/the-fight-for-a-third-best-smartphone-os-has-been-lost-by-everyone/
Well, OK, but $30 vs $500? What do I need a $500 phone for?
Jim
My Blackberry Z30 can kick the beans out of your.......uhmmm.........welll at least it's.........it runs my Pebble, sort of......... I've got BBM!......but nobody else does..........OK, OK, OK, It's Canadian....ish......says made in Mexico right on the back.
Crap!
Anybody got some string and a couple of cans?
And maybe an Etch-a-sketch for my OS 1.1
Anyway it's a bulletproof Nokia. You can swim with it, drive nails with the screen, and carry it in your breast pocket so it will save your life when you get shot and still work so you can call the cops on the bounder. That seems sorta important doesn't it?
Jim
Sent from my iPhone...
image.jpeg
Okay Jim. I've changed some of this forum's settings and you should now find it much easier to attach photos right from your iPhone.
The forum's 600KB file size restriction might still inconvenience you. You can change file size by sending the file to yourself (using email or text message) and selecting one of the smaller file size options. Or, if you'd like more control and options you can use a separate photo editing app. I'd recommend "Photogene", which you'll find in the iOS store for $2.99. It supports cropping, resizing, rotating, retouching, brightening, etc.
Windows phone? Another fine product from the company that invented the software bug and the email virus, and perfected "planned obsolescence".
Hmm.. $30,... $500... Gee, so hard to decide. (not) :-) If I pulled $470 out of my budget for the MG maybe I could have a phone like everyone else that won't fit in my pocket, does all kinds of stuff I'll never use, which I can't figure out how to use, and breaks if I drop it. Oh Joy.
At 1/17th the cost maybe I can afford to be a little tolerant. Have you noticed btw, the windows software has evolved a little? I know in the early days the BSOD happened a lot and take it from me, I bitched about Microsoft as much as anybody. But when I set up a Linux box I learned windows wasn't that bad. Look I balk at learning to use the TV remote. I learned to use a PC because I had to, kicking and screaming all the way. I felt the demise of the flip phone was a sad day. Do you really think I want to learn a sophisticated new operating system before I can make a phone call?
I already know how to use windows. And windows 8 isn't that much of a stretch, hey, I have to learn windows 10 anyway. And guess what? It's really pretty good. Why wouldn't I want my phone to work the same way? Is there something I'm missing here?
Jim
But you already have an iPhone. And, it now works better with this Forum.
As for Windows, I am about done. I used to work on Xenix & SCO Unix systems in the Pharmacy business. Much more efficient OS. Did not take much computing horsepower to run. So, I am going back to Linux.
No, the iphone was a company phone and I'm turning it back in so the salesman can have it, and going back to my old phone number. Instead of the old android phone (Blu) I'm trying the Lumina 640 for $30. So far I like it. Should complete the changeover in the next week or so. It's a heck of a lot for the money.
All of the computers have gotten so much better, and especially the OS's. Compared to not long ago there really isn't much left to complain about. Just what you're most comfortable with. Same with the phones I suppose. Just makes sense to me to use the same OS for your phone as for your computer. Is Android a Linux based OS then?
Jim
Matthew says whenever he shows his windows phone to anyone they are always amazed at how easy it is to use. His usual question is, "Have you ever TRIED a windows phone?" Hardly anyone has.
Jim
Yes, Android is based on the Linux kernel.
http://techluminati.com/operating-systems/linux-vs-windows/
Well then it would seem to make sense to have an android phone and a linux computer I would think, if you are comfortable with Linux. Or maybe a Mac and an iphone. But I don't know why you wouldn't want a windows phone if you run a windows OS on your PC or laptop.
Poor advertising program by microsoft I suspect.
The larger problem, to me, is setting your phone to take pictures that can be directly posted to email and forums without resizing. But maybe I'll be able to find a camera app that does that. Might be a little harder to find for the windows phone, admittedly. Seems like I had found one for the android phone I used before the iphone. But surely there is one out there for the Nokia.
Jim
Doesn't really matter. I have no intentions of diving into my phone's OS.
Me neither, but it changes the way you use it.
Been working on the DRO and think I have a pretty good plan. Should have some resistors and IC sockets coming tomorrow and I'll try to get a photo. (But with my Canon, not my phone, be a few days yet before that's ready to use.)
Jim
Here's a couple of assembly photos of the DRO.
IMG_0016.JPG
IMG_0017.JPG
It will get wires and resistors plus a gray smoked window that can be pressed on one side to activate the calibration switch for the O2 sensor. I intend to wire the decimal point to be the O2 indicator light but that is likely to require a transistor as well to change polarity. Last night I got most of it done except for the inputs. and the leads.
Jim
Jim I get my circuit board made at ExpressPCB. You can download their software for free. Low production circuits are a bit pricey but they do a small board (I forget the size) which is a bit cheaper; 3 at a time.
CB.jpeg
Time for an update. First, the DRO is installed, configured, and appears to work correctly. I'm still waiting on software revisions to the shifting controller, which requires the use of an expensive software editing program that only a few people have. I'm waiting on Lance (now Bernard Fyfe). My next step is to see if Matthew can get the software through his college, and anyway I want some features that Barney will not implement.
IMG_0008.JPG
While getting that sorted I've been working on plumbing, some of which is on the Holley fuel tank mat thread. So at this point I've got the liquid side of the intercooler plumbed, the fuel lines replaced and upsized, and only the tank pickup and one short FPR return line to do. It goes from there to the intercooler, and provides the working fluid for the liquid side.
IMG_0009.JPG
IMG_0010.JPG
IMG_0013.JPG
Still have to install a relay and control line for the circulation pump seen by the radiator, I expect I can find an output from the MegaSquirt to do that job.
Jim
And,.. a couple more photos:
IMG_0011.JPG
This one shows the clone Bosch44 fuel pump, a bit of a beast but can deliver probably 2-3 times the fuel requirements.
IMG_0012.JPG
And the Holley pick-up mat flipped and stuck on the tank just about where it will go. Doing it again, I would buy the 15 x 15" mat, put it in about that position, and probably pop a hole right under the bung in the center and use a banjo fitting on the outside. Oh well. Not going to spend another $300 just for that. Instead an internal 1/2" fuel rated hose and a #8 bulkhead will go on the side of the tank near the bottom front corner. Just waiting on the hose to be made.
Jim
New upgrade on the paddle shifters:
IMG_0006.JPG
This is a Turk adjustable flat inductive proximity switch. It senses in the center of the exposed side at a distance of up to about 10mm or so, maybe a bit more. So the fingers simply have to be flicked inward in the vicinity of the sensor, which is equipped with two LED indicator lights, one for power and one for switched on. It uses 10-30vdc and outputs the supply voltage.
IMG_0007.JPG
IMG_0008.JPG
IMG_0009.JPG
Jim
Might as well attach the photos for the A/C plumbing as well:
IMG_0001.JPG
IMG_0002.JPG
IMG_0004.JPG
IMG_0005.JPG
That's complete as far as the cabin. Kept most of the cold run inside and most of the hot run outside. More efficient that way and less insulation required.
Jim
Noticed that all your (A/C, hydraulic and pneumatic) thin wall tube runs have really nice mandrel-type bends - what kind of tube bending equipment are you using?
Mainly an old KD hand bender that does 3/16 to 3/8". I mount it in the vise for most of the work, and I made an accessory for it to push the tube around the die. It's a handle made of 1/8" strap that attaches to the hub with a through-pin and has a UHMW pusher block with 4 grooves in it which fits tightly against the die and the tube. Put the tube in the bender, fit up the handle, insert the pin, then pull the tube around the die. I've found that with this nicopp tube it sometimes helps to pull on the tube (stretch) as it comes around to reduce wrinkling inside the bend. It's been so long since I made the handle that I've forgotten but I probably had to mount the bender spool in a lathe to drill the pin hole in the center. (with the handle flying around trying to smack me as I was drilling I'd suspect) I used that tool extensively when plumbing my small tractor for external hydraulics using 3/8" hard line and it did a good job on that too.
The main difference between that and most of the benders you see available is the pusher block, and that can be added to almost any cheap bender. All you really need is the formed die. Once you have that and a reasonable short end stop you just need something to push the tube around, and UHMW works great for that.
For the 1/2 aluminum I have a HF bender with a good die but I don't use the catch or the follower roller as they both damage the tube. Instead, with it clamped in the vise I hand pull the tube around the die. That's a little tricky to avoid a kink, and multiple bends close together would be difficult. If I was using it more I'd modify it with a formed block at each end. Those are easy to make by just drilling a hole through the UHMW and splitting it with a saw.
On the coils, I've used several things, and a soft surface is real helpful. I've got an old lathe spindle that I chuck the form up in and turn it by hand, guiding the tubing freehand. On some I've cut a slot in the end to start, otherwise rig some sort of a clamp. I've found rubber corks to be helpful as well as the butt end of an old cue stick for pushing things into place, also a prybar with a rubber strip taped over the end. That nicopp is very easy to dent, but with patience it does make an attractive job. The 1/8" stainless was actually some of the easiest to work with as it isn't prone to kinking or denting and I was able to use a small diameter wooden form. (dowell rod)
Maybe the best hint I can think of though, is to be very patient when straightening out the coil of tubing before starting, as the straighter it is to start with the nicer the job ends up being. That, and don't be afraid to bend your newly formed tube to get it to go in place. You can usually bend it back. Also measure carefully and precisely. Your bending die is your best friend here as you can easily eyeball the radius center as well as the inside and outside of the tube at the end of the bend, and if you measure to the end of the bend and set your tube in the die that way, that's how it comes out. You can also just eyeball a mark on your tube. I like to use 90 degree bends whenever it can be reasonably done because it makes the measuring a lot easier and you don't have to mess with an angle gage.
Jim
I have a piece of wheelbarrow handle (round to square) that come in handy. ;)
Still plugging away on the software to run the transmission controller. I'm not a programmer but I'm trying to learn what I need to adapt it to the 8 speed. Currently studying port and pin assignment and configuration for the Motorola HSC12 microcontroller family, specifically port "T" and pins PT5, 6, 7 and PT0. I'm trying to learn how to command the Data Direction Register DDRT so that it sees PT6 and PT0 as inputs and the rest of the 8 pins as outputs.
If I can get past that there is more to do, but that is presently the most important thing.
Jim
So I've been trying to puzzle this thing out. I've bought a couple of books, one on the Motorolla HSC12 embedded microprocessor family and one on programming for C. It's not my forte so progress is going to be very slow. In the meantime I've been asking around and my current long term plan is to work with a local college professor and see if we can set up a student project next year sometime.
But that doesn't get me driving. So short term I'm going to nerf the controller and take two of the LED outputs used for the digital gear display and jumper those over to run two of the shifting solenoids. I will jumper the paddle upshift back to it's usual port. With any luck that will get the transmission out of limp-home mode and then I can concentrate on tuning. Provided this works I should be able to drive the car very soon.
Jim
Well that solution didn't get too far because coding is required in order to configure an LED output as anything else.
So, now I'm looking at pulling the jumpers for the two least important solenoids. It looks like that will be the ones for Clutch pack 3 and brake band 1. with those disabled I will have gears 1,4,5 and 6. 6th is 1:1 so no overdrive and since 1st is about 4.5:1 there's a huge jump to 4th which is about 1.8. But the car can currently lay down 50 yards of double stripes from a rolling start uphill in 3rd so at least it should be driveable and I can work on some tuning. I just have to work out the new jumper assignments and then sort out the GUI configuration in TunerStudio.
Jim
Still working on learning to program in "C". But in the meantime, here's some eye candy:
IMG_0002.JPG
I have my new hubs blanked out. So some day they will be on the car. That's over $100 just in billet aluminum right there. Then you whittle most of it away and turn it into scrap. It's hardly even worth the trouble to recycle.
But, a few more hours on the lathe and then some on the mill and they will be ready. Caps though, got to think about caps. Can't be using those ugly tin ones.
Jim
Trying to get ready for 2017BritishV8. I have the hubs done except for bolts:
IMG_0026.JPG
I'll have to make plates to mount the Outlaw calipers as well.
As for the transmission, since it doesn't look like the code will be ready to run the 8 speed in time I've made plans to install a T5 temporarily. That way I can at least drive the car while the bugs are being worked out, and I'm considering setting up a test bench to drive the transmission for that purpose.
Also, I found the '85 XJ6 speedo is the same size as the early MGB and has a motor on the back. That and the pulse generator in the T5's speedo drive might be compatible.
Jim
Hope to see your car Jim. Its been too long!
It has. Things are looking reasonably promising. Here is a photo of my new adapter brackets to mount my Outlaw calipers.
Jim
IMG_0024.JPG
You must be pretty confident if you're taking the time to anodize brackets :). They look great.
Thanks Rob. Just a little corrosion resistance where it'll do some good. I only wish I'd been able to do the wheels. That's be pretty ambitious, but who knows, maybe over the winter I could do it. It's coming along. The flywheel is out for balancing and I've cut down the HTOB to accommodate the bent-finger pressure plate.Reduced travel but I think it'll be OK. Need to get hoses made up, bleed the clutch and front brakes, do some tuning, and hopefully sort out the speedo. If not, well, I have GPS on the phone.
Jim
Brake photos:
IMG_0027.JPG
IMG_0028.JPG
Hopefully I'll have hoses and flywheel tomorrow and can install the tranny. Then order up a driveshaft and the rest is just details.
Jim
You & Terry Schulte. ;)
Oops, I thought it was Terry. Somebody from the Fast Cars shop had fancy wavy rotors.
Got the tranny installed. Driveshaft should be here tuesday. A few other details to see to.
Jim
re: Somebody from the Fast Cars shop had fancy wavy rotors.
That would be the red MGB conversion with the Portavents on the side.
Jim, Do you happen to know how much weight was added to the flywheel for balancing?
I'll try to get you an approximate number tomorrow. It was more than the weight Chris's guy added but less than double that. I should be able to get you a number that is close.
Jim
Jim, the best estimate that I can give you was that it was probably somewhere in the vicinity of 150 grams. certainly over 120 and less than twice that, so I'd say maybe 150-175g. So around 5-6 ounces, placed against the rim on the back side.
Jim
Looks like more slippage in the schedule. Ended up destroying the seal in the HTOB and since those are very unique and proprietary a google search on the seal number drew a blank.
SOo.... another $48 and a 3-7 day wait for another HTOB. That doesn't leave enough time for install and shakedown/tuning so the roadster will stay home this time. I'll bring it to Townsend instead. Too bad, I know a few were looking forward to the tech session. Guess we'll do Roadmaster A/C instead.
Jim
Sorry to hear that, Jim. I know it has been a long time.
QuoteEnded up destroying the seal in the HTOB...
For such a high priced product, most HTOB's are overpriced, underperforming pieces of crap. An HTOB stopped me from going to British V8 2002 in Tennessee, so I can sense your disappointment - do yourself a favour and ditch the thing and go to an external slave cylinder.
Roadmaster will be more than suitable alternative.
Jim - is there not time to make a bracket & use an external slave? Don't have to pull the engine for that.
Rob, it's worth thinking about. The biggest issue with using this OEM style HTOB is that you have to install and remove the T5 and bellhousing as a unit. This causes a lot of other problems, such as:
Cutting the fixed crossmember and fashioning a removable section becomes mandatory unless the engine is removed also.
Unless either the engine is positioned very far forwards or the engine mounts etc allow the engine to be greatly tilted to the rear, it is not removable due to the firewall. In most cases this will also mean unbolting the headers from the heads for transmission removal, and possibly unbolting the engine mounts. It may mean jacking up the front of the engine as well.
Access to the bellhousing/engine bolts is very difficult.
In addition, it requires careful selection of the pressure plate as it is incompatible with a high RPM bent finger diaphragm style PP. To get the same performance, a finger-weighted style such as CenterForce must be used, adding additional expense.
Then as Graham notes there is the quality. Upon removal of the seal I was able to inspect the bore and the shortcomings there are obvious. No deburring was done on the holes that lead to the bore for pressure and bleed, resulting in some very sharp edges in proximity to the seal. It looks rather clear that every time the seal bottomed in the bore these edges took a nibble out of the back outer edge of the seal, any one of which could have caused leakage.
And finally there is the fact that you cannot use this HTOB without an $80 input shaft bearing retainer which is difficult to source. Unless that is already on the transmission it is an additional expense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now to be fair, the alternatives are not perfect. Aftermarket HTOBs also do not allow the use of a bent finger PP. They have had quality issues. They generally have no anti-rotation provision aside from the hoses. And they are ridiculously expensive.
A mechanical TOB has friction, clearance, linkage and slave issues, but it will allow the use of the bent finger PP if room can be found externally. Usually this means a "pull" type cylinder, shortening of the clutch arm, and juggling of bore sizes to get something that works and feels acceptable. However, I'm willing to consider that possibility. A cable release arm such as used in the V6 Buick application would allow a rear mounted standard cylinder.
Jim
So I got insurance on the car today and went for a couple of short drives down the street. Still have start-up and warm-up tuning to do and there's a squeak I need to find, but initial results are promising. It's got a lot of power and sounds awesome, the blower is putting out about 5psi which is what I was expecting.
I'll try to shoot a video next time I have family in town, probably the weekend of the Dayton meet. By then hopefully I'll have most of the shake-down done.
I haven't given up on the 8 speed, I recently learned that the TCM used in the 2014 and 2015 Cadillac CTS line might do the trick. Provided I can acquire a pin-out for the TCM connector and perhaps a schematic of the wiring for it. Not the easiest task. In the meantime the T5 will do nicely. I ended up using a S10 clutch fork and Isuzu slave cylinder and think it went together pretty good, not perfect but well enough.
Jim
Take that thing out and scare the crap out of the cameraman in the right seat. Hopefully, he/she will keep the video going so we can see it in action.
Jim,
I can probably get the pin out and schematics for you. Due to copy right restrictions, most likely I will have to print them out and snail mail them to you though.
Bill
That'd be great Bill!
I'll PM you.
Jim
Jim, Congrats! Take it easy starting out with the low gear first in that T5. You can probably start out in second.
... or 3rd. Or 4th.
Starting to drive it around a bit. Not happy with off-idle, I think I need to change the linkage geometry to get more movement initially rather than less, the way it is now. Feels sluggish but it really isn't, just not getting as much gas as the foot thinks it is. Guessed wrong there. It should be pretty easy to change. Mid throttle it has a lot of power. Also I think my off-idle tune needs some work.
Interestingly enough, with the 3.54 gears and the 25.7" tall tires, 1st gear is usable. Then around half throttle in 2nd breaks the tires loose. So I have some work to do with that.
In time I hope to have something I will enjoy driving but it may be awhile before I get there. Not quite like I can just pick right up where I left off with the 215. But the raw material is there, now I just have to refine it. There are a number of quibbles. Can't swear it'll be ready for Dayton but perhaps, and Townsend should be very possible.
Jim
Hey Jim, you drove your car to a recent event, right? How'd it feel to have it back on the road?
Oh it was glorious! Driving a high powered MGB convertible in simply incomparable. (And I pity you GT drivers ;) )
Seriously though, I'm working my way through the shake-down and there is still quite a bit to do. But, the important parts are mostly done. Interesting to compare the roadster to the MG-Roadmaster though. Where the Roadmaster is infinitely civilized, the roadster is just something of a rampaging lunatic. Very controllable, but perfectly happy to simply go off at any instant. Once I get the rough edges ironed out I think I'm really going to like it a lot. Of course that could take awhile...
Jim
Today I re-torqued the heads to 75 ft/lbs (It has studs and an iron block), and did some work on the belt idler pulleys. They didn't track quite right so I cut the side flanges off and cut a little bit of a crown in them. Looks like that did the trick, too bad I didn't think of it sooner, the belts are about $80 apeace.
I've been working on the tune and now have the hot idle down to 1100 rpm which sounds pretty reasonable, at least for now. The engine will recover from dips down to as little as 300-400rpm so I think it should be able to idle lower but I'm fighting a low speed oscillation. I think I've done about as much as I can with the timing and mixture but who knows? Best to start driving it I think.
I'd been having some trouble with cooling but think I have that sorted out now. The surge tank wasn't quite big enough apparently so I added a coolant recovery bottle as well, capped them both with 14psi pressure caps, making system pressure 28psi, and now the recovery bottle doesn't even get hot but it does build pressure. Temp is holding at 190, with one fan running. So far so good. I've run across a real good coolant system sealant, which we used on the Roadmaster to fix that small leak at the timing cover so I'm going to get some of that and put in it since I've been having a little difficulty with getting the copper head gaskets to seal up the water jacket. (hence the re-torque)
I had to disable my hydraulics on the wing for the time being. It seems I have fluid crossing over so either I have a bad piston seal somewhere or a leak between the reservoirs. More testing required. I locked the wing so I can drive it.
I think I'll wait to start it again until I have the sealant added.
Jim
"capped them both with 14psi pressure caps, making system pressure 28psi"
huh?
I meant to revisit this, Curtis, cause I didn't follow that either.
I wouldn't think Dalton's Law applies in Jim's situation.
The two caps are in series so the pressure adds.
The first surge tank overflow is after the pressure cap which holds 14psi.
The second, the coolant recovery bottle also has a 14 psi pressure cap which adds to system pressure.
So the total is 28psi. Dlaton's law notwithstanding.
The last week I've been swapping transmissions. Removed the non-wc T5 and installed a Tremec TKO-425. OK that's probably not the right number but it is the torque rating. It was the predecessor to the TKO-500. Larger input shaft with 26 splines, larger output shaft with 31 splines, derived from a Ford version but built to fit GM applications. There were a few significant differences. First of course was the need for a larger slip yoke and a larger clutch disc. Which also meant a conversion u-joint to match my driveshaft. Overall length was about 1/2" shorter so that was fine. The speedometer drive required a special adapter which I then had to modify further to match my Jaguar speedometer sender unit but I much prefer the new angle of the speedo drive which is pointed more downwards making it easier to fit in the tunnel.
The fit into the bellhousing was tighter than I would have liked, and the shifter came out a bit forwards and to the right, requiring some light trimming and a new cover plate. The shifter itself attaches with 2 bolts and the stub sticks up above the tunnel about a half inch. I did not have to touch the transmission tunnel and have probably a half inch of clearance under the seam which is as original. The crossmember did not quite line up and the forward edge had to be trimmed and reinforced. Another inch of setback would have helped there and my engine position is farther forward than most. It has a 3.27 1st gear and 0.68 OD I believe. I won't get to drive it for a few days more though as I'm finishing up the shifter and I have the car on the lift cutting the passenger's side rocker in an attempt to straighten out the bend in the body. But it should be an improvement.
Jim
Same pilot bushing?
Yeah that's the same. So here's the scoop on using the S-10 clutch fork, a photo link from Rockauto is below. As you can see it has a significant bend at one end. If you use it with a 10-1/2" pressure plate that end will hit the hat and you'll need a pedal stop, plus it will not give enough clearance to allow for clutch wear.
http://www.rockauto.com/info/797/LK_LF9836_Fro__ra_p.jpg
So the steps to make it usable follow. First, with a hydraulic press, straighten the bend
IMG_0009.JPG
Then straighten the sides
IMG_0010.JPG
Then flatten the dimple by pressing it flat then find it's new location, mark it and press in a new dimple
IMG_0012.JPG
Continued:
IMG_0013.JPG
IMG_0014.JPG
IMG_0004.JPG
IMG_0005.JPG
I also straightened the body of the fork so it would lay flatter against the transmission for more travel, and straightened the bend at the ball socket to align it more correctly with the ball. (on the other end)
Contimued:
IMG_0006.JPG
IMG_0007.JPG
IMG_0015.JPG
You can see here that there is at least 1/2" of allowable travel before the yoke hits the transmission.
IMG_0016.JPG
Continued:
The slave is an Isuzu part available for $40 from Amazon.
Dorman CS360032 Clutch Slave Cylinder
IMG_0008.JPG
I used banjo fittings and put a hose on the bleeder that reaches the reservoir for recirculation bleeding, works a treat. I may have had to re-tap the bleeder port to a larger size, not sure on that. The push rod that came with it was exactly the right length. Bore is 3/4" and stroke is 2".
And that's all I have for you guys at the moment. Should have it completed today or tomorrow.
Jim
So I've been testing and tuning and trying to use this much delayed spring as an excuse to get the car ready to drive. There was (and may still be) an oscillation at any idle below 1200rpm that I've spent countless hours trying to resolve yet it has resisted all attempts to date including extensive remapping of all injection and ignition parameters. The most recent datalogs show a steady idle and then it will drop into oscillation. The way it begins is that for no presently discernable reason the revs will climb then drop. George Van Horn has looked at the datalogs with me and we have drawn a complete blank on why that happens so at his suggestion I have reloaded the firmware. But I think I already tried that way back at the beginning so it may not change a thing. Tomorrow's test drive should tell.
But it is plenty drivable and the good news is that I've finally begun to use Autotune and get some usable results. When they first came out with that it was kinda buggy and didn't work very well. Mind you this was, what? 15 years ago maybe? I decided at that time that I could tune the VE map as well as I could the AFR table, and after getting used to that saw no real need to try it again. Anyway now it works pretty good. Turn it on for awhile, push the button to smooth the map a time or two and repeat, tweak the outlying areas and do it again. I'm happy with the results so far.
Finally ordered a new rear bumper. One of the old overiders was touching my new gas cap, couldn't have that. So I cut those off and installed a set of LED bolts for the tag lights. But man, that bare bumper is sure gonna uglify the car til the new one comes in what with the dents and scratches that were covered up, as if it wasn't already ugly enough anyway.
I did Glen's zerk fitting mod on my door hinges and have swapped out the passenger's side, which meant the door had to come apart of course and this was a good excuse to refinish the door panels, caps and pockets. I just finished up one side and have the other yet to go but it really spruces things up inside the car. That got me thinking about speakers so I ordered a new set of 6 x 9's. I used to have early Altec-Lansing Voice of the Highway 4A 6 x 9's mounted on the doors below the window cranks. I knew they were extremely good but did not realize quite how special until the long fruitless search for adequate replacements. But, maybe these will come close: Morel Maxima Ultra. They are supposed to be pretty good, we will see.
There's a local car show tomorrow. So, the first actual hand wash in many years in the morning and a stop by in the afternoon. With the top down. YAY!
Jim
Pictures coming I hope. Have you had a chance to really stomp on it yet?
Not really hard but I've gotten into it enough to know the power is there. However it seems I may have been a little conservative on my valve spring pressure so won't be wringing it out until that is upgraded. Meantime I'll be keeping it under about 4500rpm. Not that this creates a problem you understand. It's a very frisky engine.
Photos... yeah, that'd be a good idea.
Jim
"Frisky" - Great description, I'll have to remember that
I'm sure you've experienced much the same thing.
You know, I used to say that at 300hp you could do anything with the MGB that you wanted to. And that was true enough. Now it's just, well, more so.
I took it to a local car show today, that was fun. Didn't stay very long, just enough to wander through once or twice and answer a few questions but I had a good time. The idle oscillation though? Yeah I've still got that. Maybe it'll go away when I switch to MS3. I also have a plan in the works to remove the intercooler. Don't need it at my level of boost and it'll drop the inlet 3-4", vastly improving my sightlines. That will probably happen over the winter. Maybe I'll add the IC condenser to my A/C system and boost it's efficiency (once it's finished that is). Seems like a good choice since it is already installed. Anyway, if the oscillation is somehow related to induction volume that should change it for the better.
Jim
Jim,
What are you running for air/fuel ratio at idle? The reason I ask, is because I have to run a slightly richer fuel mixture at idle.
I tried and tried to get it to idle at 14.7 to 1 without it surging. Finally I resigned to just giving the motor what it wants and it idles nice and smooth in the 13.2 to 13.5 to 1 range. It also produces the highest vacuum reading at idle with a 13ish to 1 fuel mixture as well.
At cruising speeds I can get away with a leaner mixture no prob. However I'm thinking that the motor likes a slightly richer mixture at idle due to the parasitic draw from rotating the supercharger.
Bill
Thanks Bill, I think just about any engine is going to need a little richer mixture at idle. In fact I'm not yet down to 14:1 anywhere on the map just yet. So that's not the problem.
Jim
I thought an update might be a good idea. The car was running pretty good and I had it out on a couple of medium long runs mostly without incident. Mostly I say because at the very end of the trip back from Townsend, about 3 miles from home the engine went off-song and began running pig rich. I nursed it home and parked it. since then diagnostics have shown that leak-down is as perfect as it can ever get and fuel pressure is as expected. the problem appears to be in the MS controller.
That's it, I'm done. I've had just about enough of the MS amateur hour. I know a lot of you have had nothing but good luck with MS and I salute you, but it hasn't been so smooth for me. After more than two decades with these products, numerous failures and even abandonment issues what I want above all else is reliability. Something that they just don't have I'm afraid. Probably their top of the line fully assembled and sealed unit is better, but it also costs over $700. Sorry, count me out, there are now better options.
So I went out to the pick-n-pull. For $50 I bought a Gen III GM LS ECM with connectors and about 2 ft of wiring and it took all of 5 minutes to remove it. (The so-called 0411 ECM) For $32 I bought a reluctor ring from Summit to work with it. Pickups and sensors, connectors and such will be a couple hundred more, LS COP coils which I intended to add anyway will add another $150 or so. Some work will be required to adapt these pieces.
The 411 controller is of course at the top end in terms of hardware. Nothing to criticize. It has self-learning capability, COP, full sequential, fan control, fault tracking, and a host of other capabilities as you would expect from any major manufacturer's 2002 or later ECM. It can also be tuned using a laptop and flashed to save tunes. It appears to have been one of the first with all these capabilities and is considered probably the most desirable controller among hot rodders. Hopefully I've done my homework well enough. The reluctor is mounted with the small calibration hole under the pickup with #1 cylinder at TDC. A cam position sensor is required. Luckily I already have one in the engine. I hope to be back on the road by late spring. We will see.
Jim
Posts like this are what have caused me to hesitate installing the Edelbrock SPFI system I have. Most sensors are small and cheap enough to carry spares, but, while the ECU appears like an OEM unit from something, I've not found what .. so if/when it fails, I'd be stranded. It's just too easy to keep a carb'd car running. OEM systems are good. Not convinced any of the aftermarket one's are!
I would not be afraid to try it Rob. What kills electronics more then anything is heat and poor ground connections, which can create excessive circuit board heat.
Just make sure that you mount the ECU where it's protected from excessive heat (under the dash or on the kick panel is good) and that your wiring is sound. Then you should have years of trouble free service!
Bill
Ordinarily I'd agree with Bill, but not when I've seen the number of failures I have and on different vehicles. Many people have been very fortunate with these. And you can't just put the failures down to bad connections or heat either. Bear in mind I'm a former USAF electronics technician among other things and I'd put the integrity of my installation up against anybody else's.
Despite that I've seen processor failures at irregular intervals going right back to the early days and no, the type of failure has not repeated, which is to say if they were caused externally the source was not the same. This and many other factors are the reasons why I referred to MS as "Amateur hour". Really they are, and at least until recently they would have told you that themselves. And I'm done relying on amateur designed and built electronics controllers for mission critical applications. Just done. All you have to do is take a close critical look at the controller used by a major manufacturer like GM to see a world of difference in design, construction and execution. By comparison the MS controller is, yes very much an amateur production. The evidence is clear in every aspect. The MS looks like something that was built for weekends on the drag strip, not to reliably run a vehicle for a quarter million miles or better. For instance, it's been nearly half a century since GM began using high reliability gas sealed connectors. What do we see on MS products? D-sub connectors used for computer interconnects. Not the thing you want in a hostile automotive environment. Now they've improved that on their top end products, but it should have been done that way to begin with, the technology was there, and I even told them at the time. And that's only scratching the surface.
No. When you can buy a proper controller that will more than do the job for $50 at any junkyard in the country today, why would any sensible person not take advantage of that?
Jim
I felt the same way, Rob, when I installed a PerTronix module in my distributor 15 years ago. I knew if it failed, i would be stranded. I have kept a set of points in the trunk ever since waiting for that day. Still waiting.
Jim only has $50 in his GM 411 ECM, so having a know good, pre-programmed spare for trips is cheap peace of mind. :)
I agree with using the GM controller. I don't have the LS one but the original for the 95 LT1 is working fine. It is programmable and has many more functions than I needed so I just eliminated those wires. Make sure you pay attention to all the grounds as I smoked the first unit because of a missed ground in the diagnostic port. As long as mine works I probably won't upgrade to the LS unit but if it does take a dump I'll change it out and run 8 coils.
I thought I'd take one more shot at adjusting the MS2. So I hooked it up on the bench and when I tried to access it, I got an error message saying the files didn't match and giving me a file name that looked very odd. So I tried every file I had for it on my tuning laptop to no avail. Last time this happened I had to reflash the processor so I set up to do that and the flash failed, which bricked the processor. So that's the end of the line. I could possibly install the MS3 processor but it turns out that is not straightforward at all and If I'm going through all that I may as well make it count for something and not have to just turn around later and do it all again. So I'll sell what's still good from the MS system and proceed with the GM 0411 install.
Currently I have the bench harness work partially done and have bits ordered to complete it. I have TunerPro RT installed on my tuning laptop, I have ordered the OBD2/USB adapter to work with PCM Hammer, which software I plan to download and install as soon as the harness is completed. After that I should be able to take a look under the hood. Wiring and mods to the 340 to make it work will progress as it warms up outside.
Since the 411 runs sequential and COP the changeover is going to be more than just splicing a few wires, but as always this presents an opportunity to make improvements also.
Jim
Aww, as a MSII user, I'm saddened to hear of the troubles Jim has had. I did use the
system partially due to cost, partially from the stories of tune ability, and I thought it a challenge (it has been).
I have had a series of issues unrelated to the MS that have prevented me from completing the tune to my
satisfaction, but the car runs well, and the final tuning is to set the VE table closer.
I will keep my eye on the GM conversion discussion, but won't make the change unless I have trouble.
Dennis
To be fair I've run MS since the earliest days of MS-1 and you would expect some failures of hobby type equipment over that span of just a bit shy of 2 decades. But we've seen 3 MS2 processor failures in the last 3 years between 2 vehicles with no rhyme or reason. Overall I've had 4 or 5 processor failures in the entire time I've been using it. Discounting the last 3, one or two failures over that period wouldn't be good but could be accepted. It's just gotten to be a bit much. Admittedly at about $120 each the processors aren't all that expensive but the costs do add up. More importantly than that though is that I no longer feel comfortable taking the car on a long trip. I've just been extremely lucky that the last two times I've been able to limp the car home. The last time I was 3 miles from home after a long trip, stopped then restarted the car, brought it up to freeway speed and it suddenly went pig rich. I don't know what the cause of the failures was but typically communication is lost with the tuning laptop, after which any attempt to reflash results in a locked up chip that won't even start the car. So if for example I'd made the mistake of trying to reflash at the Dayton meet instead of just biting the bullet and driving it home, (and I almost did) I'd have been stranded almost 100 miles away. Not good. That time the car was running normally, I just suddenly lost communication with the laptop. I've been lucky.
The OBD2/USB cable came in today, it looks to be properly made. I've checked my connectors against the pin-out chart and stripped one down for the bench harness (only the blue connector is needed for that). Only waiting on a digikey order and an OBD2 connector from ebay to put the bench harness together.
On the car side, I'm giving some serious thought to pulling a couple of engine harnesses so I have wires and pins of the correct colors. The degree wheel is here but I need to install it, modify the flag on the cam sensor, install the 4-wire IAC on the inlet scoop and order several sensors. Plus do some research on 2/3 bar MAP sensors used with the GM controller and a couple of other fairly minor issues. With any luck those will not raise problems. If so I'll just have to come up with a workaround. (Bias the MAP signal and tweak the VE table for instance.)
It shouldn't be too hard to get it done before too much of the driving season slips away.
Jim
Finally it looks like it should be warmer for awhile. I've been plugging away at what I could do in the house. Established comm with the '411 and used TunerPro to go in and remove a bunch of items that won't be needed, mostly having to do with transmission, cats, DBW, and a few other things that don't apply to the typical V8 MGB. Basically just getting rid of the clutter. There remains a somewhat daunting number of tuning parameters and I didn't want to be confused by extra entries that don't do anything. Will that work? Can I just delete the flags and parameters that way? Not to mention tables and settings? Who knows. I'll find out when I go to start it up. If it doesn't I can revert to an earlier file before I removed all that.
I've been getting my documentation together too, found pages that look to be out of a Helms shop manual for an '01 Camaro so that should be handy. And today I went out and found the pages from where I did my injector dead-time testing which should give me everything I need for those.
In TunerPro I was even able to go in and change the VIN# to the one from my MGB. There are 4 left over spaces at the end so I think I may put MGB and a space at the beginning, at least see if it will let me do that, then start putting in the injector info. I also want to see what one of the other '411s has for ignition settings and compare them since I'll be running the Silverado coil packs. (This OS and tune are for a Camaro)
I've been mentally preparing myself for the rewire job and think I'm just about ready. I don't know at this point how much of the MS harness I'll remove. Some but not all of it for sure. It's complicated by the fact that I still have the megashift harness in place. I hate to give up on the 8 speed but there's no way anybody will ever set that up to run with the '411 controller so I might as well give up on that and sell the parts. Good bit of money in that, if I can get 2/3 back I'll be doing extremely well. And, removing all those wires will help me add back some simplicity which the car badly needs at this point.
Jim
Do any of the new GM/Ford automatics (10 speed I believe and smaller package than the units they replace) have a standalone controller available for them? With the number of these units out there and both manufacturers offering a whole array of crate engines to the hot rod community somebody should be making a controller. Just a thought. Having some very deep lower gears and overdrive high gears should really make your car launch hard and give some great gas mileage.
Presumably, the 2014/2015 Caddy CTS-V used the Aisin AA80E. It may have had a controller that was separate from the PCM, or it may not. I'm still trying to get info about that. So there is a very faint glimmer of hope, but it wanes as time passes.
Jim
You might want to contact the guy at the bottom of this article
https://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/introducing-standalone-controllers-5-6-7-8-speed-transmissions/
Nothing there to indicate anything has been done with the Aisin. But I do have a couple feelers out. One guy on the ctsvowners forum tells me it was used in the cts sport, not the v, and presumably that was behind an LS but he hasn't confirmed it. I still have no info on what controller was used or at present, what year. Which is critical because they used several different transmissions so I need the exact application and preferably the part number.
IF (and it's still a pretty big if) it was used behind a V8 with a GM controller it's just barely possible that 1) it could be a separate module and, 2) it may be able to interface with an earlier GM ecu like the '411. Apparently they are at least tuning the Caddy ecm with HPTuners software so at least some possibilities may exist for use if it does turn out to be a unitary pcm but it's not a large community like Silverado owners so how refined that is would be anybody's guess. Since the owners of a car with the Aisin installed is a much smaller subset, again the odds diminish, but we'll see. I'll keep the hardware for awhile yet.
Then of course there's the question as to whether the same valve body was used. That may have to be changed out (assuming that is even possible) to match the caddy tcm.
In the meantime, I need to get the car back on the road. I need to buy wheels because the fronts are too big and have too much backspacing, new tires too, front and rear. I've decided to go with a 15" rim on the front which will mount a 245 wide tire, a little narrower than I'm used to but it should work fine. It will give me about a 3" smaller diameter which will really help out my front suspension and clearance issues. I'm considering a 7" or 7-1/2" wide wheel which is a bit narrower than their recommended range but it will still fit fine and will be a little lighter and the sidewall will do a better job of protecting the rim. I ran 265's on a 7" rim for many years and never had an issue:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Hankook&tireModel=Ventus+R-S4&partnum=44WR5Z232&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
This would give the car a California rake. Or, I could stay with the 17 size and use the Toyo Proxes R1R in a 245/35-17 but it's a 1" bigger tire and still requires the wheel purchase, I'm not getting around that. So I think the 15's are going to get the nod.
On the rear I guess I'll stay with the Sumitomo. The UTOG is a little lower, 160 instead of 200 so you'd think it might be a little stickier, but it isn't rated as high as the Hankook in the reviews so maybe not.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+Z&partnum=135ZR7HTRZ&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
Jim
QuoteEstablished comm with the '411 and used TunerPro to go in and remove a bunch of items that won't be needed, mostly having to do with transmission, cats, DBW, and a few other things that don't apply to the typical V8 MGB. Basically just getting rid of the clutter. There remains a somewhat daunting number of tuning parameters and I didn't want to be confused by extra entries that don't do anything. Will that work? Can I just delete the flags and parameters that way? Not to mention tables and settings? Who knows. I'll find out when I go to start it up. If it doesn't I can revert to an earlier file before I removed all that.
I've been getting my documentation together too, found pages that look to be out of a Helms shop manual for an '01 Camaro so that should be handy. And today I went out and found the pages from where I did my injector dead-time testing which should give me everything I need for those.
In TunerPro I was even able to go in and change the VIN# to the one from my MGB. There are 4 left over spaces at the end so I think I may put MGB and a space at the beginning, at least see if it will let me do that, then start putting in the injector info. I also want to see what one of the other '411s has for ignition settings and compare them since I'll be running the Silverado coil packs. (This OS and tune are for a Camaro)
Jim are you referring to removing the XDF parameters or the actual data in the calibration? If it's the latter I wouldn't do that. Only the items needed for stand alone use are enabled in that bin. It is a manual bin as well so the auto stuff you see there is included in the factory calibration for a manual car. Also, you may want to be careful changing the VIN. I'm not 100% on this but I suspect there is a certain pattern that needs to be in that constant. I'd suggest keeping it as is until you've got the motor running and try changing it then if you feel you have to. Making changes like this before you get it running could introduce unknown changes to the calibration which doesn't help troubleshooting if you're having difficulties.
Check this link for wiring if you haven't already. http://lt1swap.com/2001_PCM_CONN_PINOUT.htm
The diagrams show you what pins you need an those that don't matter. I used the diagrams on this site with success.
I'm anxious to see your progress on this!
Scott
Thanks Scott, I much appreciate the advice. This is a once-through on the tune, after I have what I want I'll go create a duplicate without all the deletions and then when run time comes around I'll try both just to see what it does. Chances are good it's just as you suspect and the file with the deletions either won't run or runs very poorly, but I will learn a few things by trying it. At the very least I'll become more familiar with the tuning parameters that matter the most. I really don't expect the trimmed down one to work and I probably won't try it first. Most likely I will load them each in different controllers so I can just switch over the plugs when the time comes to try it. I'm just curious if they allowed for trimming the chaff out of the tuning interface and if so, how deeply that goes. Does lack of a parameter default to a zero? In many cases if it does that'd work just fine. For others it probably won't.
I followed your suggestions and printed out what look to me like some very good documents on the wiring for the 2001 Camaro. That's what I'll use unless you see any reason not to, as I think it matches the pinout you linked to but I will be double checking as I go. They came off the same site but are more detailed. The fact that it works with your car is very important to me.
I expect to start splicing wires this week but have mechanical bits to make so that takes time too. Mounting block for the GM 4 wire IAC, mount the trigger ring and pickup, and brackets for the Silverado coils at the very least, plus a mount for the MAP sensor.
I see the LS firing order is not the same as earlier GM (SBC and SBB). I'll be looking for a setting for that, there very well may be one. Otherwise I may have to change the wire assignments accordingly for injectors and coils.
Jim
I've learned that the Caddy CTS V-Sport (1 step below the CTS-V, has a 3.4L turbo V6 @ 425hp) Used both the Aisin 8 speed and a standalone TCM. The TCM may be just a glorified solenoid driver however, I don't have that info yet, it's:
ACDELCO 24266725
It MAY run on a CAN bus link to the pcm, or it could be a more complex connection. It may or may not be able to work with the earlier 2001 '411 controller. Two pcm's are listed:
ACDELCO 12692067 and,
ACDELCO 12676230
Both of which appear to be used in V8 applications.
However, tuning of these newer pcm's could prove to be a challenge, and they are more expensive to acquire.
Jim
Jim,
The Asian 8 speed TCM contains VIN specific software data and has final say in transmission function/operation based on inputs from other modules via the high speed data line. It does contain processors and logic, so it is more then just a solenoid driver. It may be possible for it to function as a stand alone controller if communication is lost on the high speed network with other modules. However most likely it would limit transmission functions to a "limp or fail safe mode", as it relies on input from the ECM for RPM to control the shift points.
Unfortunately it probably won't communicate with the older 411 controllers. The TCM uses a high speed data rate of 500kbit while the older ECM uses 10.4Kbit class 2 communications.
Bill
Thanks Bill.
So the next question would be to find out how far things have moved along with the 2013-15 GM controllers, and if those above are interchangeable with Silverado, Camaro, and Corvette pcm's.
For now I'm moving ahead with the '411 controller for the 340 Buick to get the car back on the road. At the same time I'm in the middle of a blower 300/350 project and it seems feasible to mate the Aisin to that and put it on a run stand, which would let me check some of the TCM functions. Just don't expect to see much on that until after the car's running again. Right now I'm dealing with the pcm, wheels, tires and brakes. Lots to do before June.
Jim
Your welcome Jim,
Most of the advancements have been in processor speed both the input/out put as well as CAN communications. Sensor inputs are pretty much the same for the most part. Some applications are now using wide band O2 sensors as well.
Additionally a few engines are using individual fuel injector trim rates based off of monitored crankshaft speed, similar to how they do it on newer Duramax diesels.
Not sure if the new controllers will drive traditional port fuel injectors though, as most of the new ECM's are designed to run direct injected fuel injectors.
On 2014 and newer direct injected V8 engines, the controller uses "2 squirts" on cold start up and the direct injectors have a calculated flow rate per bank. The ECM then compares the flow rates between the cylinder banks. It is for this reason if we have a bad injector, the other 3 injectors on the same bank are usually replaced at the same time. Because the injectors are now the same age, the flow rates are now equal for the entire bank and the ECM doesn't set a DTC.
Fuel pump control modules are now being used and FPCM controls the supply side fuel pressure via pulse width modulation to the fuel pump. The FPCM commands fuel pressure based off the request from the ECM via high speed CAN line.
Now that I think about it, quite a lot has changed since 2001. My 17 Silverado has 80 more horsepower and gets better fuel mileage then my 99 did with the same 5.3L displacement!
Bill
Limp mode is definitely a concern, I already know what that is like. 3rd gear only. It moves right out but won't be going very fast.
It's entirely possible the TCM takes inputs from the paddle shifters and the console shift, and it has 3 speed sensors in the transmission so technically an engine rpm signal should not be required. However, they set them up to do some very fancy things. Who knows how much of that you can lose before limp mode sets in? Or how much of it goes over the CAN bus? The switch to high speed CAN is likely to be a bit of a problem as well.
In the Toyota applications gear selection is made by the PCM. I hope GM didn't follow their lead, but I'll have to get a wiring diagram from a v-sport to find out. Apparently the same TCM was used in a lot of the CTS models as well. (Did they also have the Aisin? IDK)
It might be possible to buy a wrecked Caddy as a donor. TCM, PCM, valve body, and wiring. But then it'll still be necessary to get inside the PCM to run V8 mode and set injector parameters, delete MAF, etc. DI is a further complication of course. Wonder if there were any non-DI engines in 2013? Sure seems like there were.
Jim
Jim,
The V8 cars/trucks in 2013 were still port injected, while the V6 is direct injected. Pretty sure the V8 and V6 (port vs direct injected) use different ECM's. Since the Asian trans was used behind the V6, not sure if the Asian TCM will communicate with the V8 ECM as it was designed to communicate with the 6L80 6 speed from that era.
The paddle shift switches for manual shifting mode are actually wired to the BCM. Then the BCM sends a shift command signal to the TCM via the serial data line.
Bill
Here's some progress. The first photo is the LS internal trigger wheel with it's weird double row of staggered teeth. I have the matching double pickup but forgot to put it in the photo. The trigger wheel has 5 big balance holes in it which must help with balancing the LS crankshaft but I don't need those so I turned some plugs.
IMG_0005.JPG
In the second photo you can see that the plugs have been welded into place and the welds skimmed. Certainly helps to have the right tools. This will next have the ID cut to match my damper adapter which it will be either welded or bolted to later on. In the same photo you can also see the GM stepper type IAC motor and mounting block completed in anodized aluminum which will next be bolted to the underside of the air inlet scoop in place of the old Ford unit. I expect it will work much better. The old IAC was a PWM type and was very noisy.
IMG_0007.JPG
The last two photos show the Silverado COP coils positioned about where they will have to go, mounted above the valvecovers. These are the so-called "smart" coils or logic level input type with built in driver amplifiers to handle the heavy coil current. Brackets will have to be made to mount these.
IMG_0008.JPG
IMG_0009.JPG
Jim
New wheels arrived today. I plan to clear anodize them before mounting tires. Although I am still considering color anodize, if I can find inexpensive dyes and tubs for them.
IMG_0010.JPG
Drag car wheels! :)
Finished up the coil mounts yesterday, got some photos. First just the mounts:
IMG_0003.JPG
Then the mounts with the coils attached:
IMG_0004.JPG
Finally the engine with the mounts and coils installed:
IMG_0007.JPG
So that's done. More to do.
Jim
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IMG_0008.JPG
IMG_0014.JPG
IMG_0015.JPG
Note: The reluctor wheel in these photos is upside down and may not be in the correct orientation relative to the pickup. More on that later.
Jim
Two tone anodize.
Timingpickupbracket.jpg
Jim
Did you put some LSD in the bath?
Just a test. I will be anodizing some wheels in a few days.
Spy photo...
JimBlackwood.jpg
Good one, Rob.
The strobe effect will lull the competition to sleep
Huh. Not quite what I had in mind but it does have a sort of playschool appeal.
Jim
Camsensor3.jpg
A Robo dizzy!
Yep. Mr. Roboto.
Actually, a cam sensor for the BOPR with the LS engine controller. The 3rd one I've made, all different designs. Come to the EFI tech session at the BritishV8 meet to see them all plus much more.
Jim
The wiring for the GM EFI is now all done. Needs some checks done and a bit of program changes, mostly to accommodate the firing order plus some general tune up and maintenance. Should be firing it up in another week or two I think.
Jim
Looking forward to the start up report Jim!
I'm also looking forward to that Jim!
Fittings for the coolant drains came in today, that's the last thing I think, before the programming work. Soon I will have no more excuses. I'm fitting 90 degree 1/8" NPT street "L"s to the block then pipe nipples, then valves. That way it will be easy and convenient to drain the block into a bucket instead of all over the bottom of the car and widely distributed on the floor.
Jim
Rolled the car off the lift yesterday. I've been in negotiations with a couple of tuners over the last week concerning the initial tune. Issues about running boost and changing the firing order need to be resolved. One is clueless about the firing order and the other wants to do a custom OS and add tables for the boost, meaning being married to EFILive as a tuning suite instead of freeware, which I'd rather avoid. But it does have more capability. They run separate licenses for cars though so the issue is avoiding multiple license charges if, say I wanted to tune with my laptop, desktop, or android phone.
Jim
Looks like HPTuners is going to get the nod. One of the more expensive options, and it costs $100/ECM to use plus $300 for the adapter (software is a free download) but it is the most refined tuning suite I've come across so far, seems pretty intuitive and easy to use for the most part, comes with a library of stock and custom tunes, has an active user forum which seems to have a friendly culture, and probably the single most persuasive item, has real time tuning (RTT) which I came to rely on with MS. So it fits my tuning methodology. It also has easily understood and used histograms which you cut and paste into your tuning tables to make adjustments easier. Lastly there are a lot of u-tube videos, some of which are professional grade instructionals. So I expect I will make that purchase today.
The time I have spent so far just getting to this point would pay that cost many times over.
Jim
Today (technically yesterday now) was a day of success. Once again I have pulled off a coup that nobody else has ever done. It was a long hard challenge, far beyond what I expected, but now that it's done I feel that the results are worth it. Let me just say that I had a lot of help along the way, and all of you who did have my thanks.
So, without further adooo, the Buick 340 now lives under GM control via the junkyard P01 ECM from a '01 Silverado programmed with an operating system that was from an '02 Camaro courtesy of my friends at GearheadEfi.com/forum with a 2 bar mod from HPTuners and parts of a tune from a guy I don't even know called Country Boy and other sources plus a great many U-tube videos. It has COP, all the GM sensors and now probably runs better than it ever did before, even after only one day of tuning efforts. That will only get better.
So I think this probably ends this 340 thread. The goal has been achieved. Sure there is more to be done to the car, but there always is and those can be posted elsewhere.
Were I to start over would I go this route? No, but about the only thing I would do differently would be to build the engine based on the 300 block instead of the 340 and use the TAPerformance heads. In fact, that engine including heads is at the machine shop today. I also still have the 8 speed and an upgrade to the GM E67 Controller and TCM from a 2014-2016 Cadillac might find it's way into the car sometime in the future. Other plans include completion of the AC system along with a new dashboard design, completion of the active wing controls, and possibly a new front suspension design with proper onboard height control. But for now I'm just going to drive it.
Jim
Fantastic!
Jim, Cool! Any pics of the COP's.
Only thing I have right now:
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IMG_0001.JPG
IMG_0003.JPG
IMG_0002.JPG
Jim
Update: It has been awhile and although the blown and intercoole 340 turned out to be a pretty good engine but with a couple of flaws. It was fast revving and made good power but the copper head gaskets were a mistake as coolant leaks continued to be a problem. Also the extra height of the intercooler put the scoop right in the sight lines and I didn't care for that.
So a little over a year ago I bought a low mileage iron head 2bbl 300 and swapped it in while the 340 came out for an upgrade to a lower profile intake and general refresh. The general plan has evolved since then and now includes late Rover heads on the 340 and a roller cam. More on that later.
Jim
At the present time I actually have 3 engines for the roadster. It's a little redundant I admit but eventually it should make sense. I have the engine in the car currently which is the iron head 300. This is the base engine that came with a 2bbl intake and 9:1 compression and weighed 50lbs more than the alloy head engine of 1964. I refer to this engine as the "Mule" and it is a very serviceable powerplant for the car. I've done the oiling mods and it shows over 60psi with 5w20 oil. Also fitted the alloy 4bbl intake, an adapter and my Enderlie style scoop, port injectors, COP ignition, '02 Camaro ECM and of course the big equal length headers. As fitted I estimate the Mule puts out about 250hp. To fit the 300 the headers use port spacers and an extra set of gaskets, I use the Rover MLSS gaskets here exclusively. This engine just basically fell into my lap as they do from time to time, was a 50K mile engine and cost me $350 and a short drive. So after checking oil pressure and leak down I put it into service to act as the backup power plant and it cost me very little to do so as the ancillaries were mostly a direct changeover from the 340.
Prior to buying this engine I had begun a new build based on a 300 block and 350 crank. This engine was to be the ultimate replacement for the 340 and has been "Modernized" in every practical sense. It has the latest light weight Wiseco forged hemispherical dish slipper style pistons, a roller cam with .544 lift and 264/274 duration, plate type cam retainer, main cap stabilizer plate, and TA-Rover heads with the heart shaped combustion chamber, .040" squish, 1.9/1.6" titanium valves, 350lb beehive springs, TA SBC 7/16" stud type roller rockers and will get the Eaton M112 blower as soon as I can build the intake manifold for it. Otherwise it gets the ancillaries that are on the Mule. It has solid lifters and may get stiffer valve springs at a later date to extend the rpm range if I feel it is warranted. The plan was to make this the final engine build for the car, things may or may not work out that way.
The 340 came out because it needed seal work on the rear main (remove hash marks) and new head gaskets which meant at least pulling the crank and heads. As it turned out it was a good thing I was able to move this part of the project up due to acquisition of the mule. Inspection showed that antifreeze that had gotten past the copper head gaskets into the oil had caused wear in the bearings. This had been reflected in a slight drop in oil pressure. So the engine was torn down for a more thorough refresh to include new bearings and crank work as needed. This engine was originally built with the alloy 300 heads, Scat 7" rods, and light weight Venolia slipper style pistons with a thicker crown for blower service. Experience indicated that it was overbuilt in a number of ways as the as-installed boost pressure of 6psi gave more than enough power for the car, meaning an intercooler, copper head gaskets, o-ringed decks, and thick piston crowns were not really required. If the goal was to race the car then yes the boost could have been increased to gain more power but this car's purpose is as a daily driver and there are such things as reasonable limits.
IMG_0001.JPG
In comparing heads it came to light that I could deepen the dish on the Venolia pistons by 20cc, substitute a set of late Rover heads which are close in flow to the 300 heads, and the engine would then accept the TA heads if that was ever desired. Because I have a set of those heads on the stroker it made sense to do that and I was able to score a set of heads off an '02 four liter Disco at the P&P for $160 including the valve covers. If I sell the covers on ebay that results in quite a score, dropping the cost to under $100 for the set. The resulting crown thickness in the center of the pistons is a bit over 3/16" which should be plenty. Since this engine is also now slated to get a roller cam the main issue has become finding a suitable set of valve springs We've been working on that along with a set of adjustable roller rockers to fit the stock rocker shaft. The mule will eventually end up with the alloy 300 heads as that is a direct swap and increases the value of the mule up into the $1200-$1500 range. The low mileage iron heads should then fetch a reasonable price from the Buick enthusiasts, so nothing goes to waste.
Why complete both of these higher output builds? Mainly because circumstances have just lead in this direction and the extra cost to do so if comparatively low. There will be a time requirement to build the new low profile blower intake but that was going to happen anyway. Spacers can make it usable on the 340 as well as the 300 or I could build another intake for the 340 as I do have a second blower but I also have a 4bbl 340 intake (only available in iron) so any of these engines can be fitted for N/A or boosted use. The 10-1/2:1 CRs limit boost but will also work well N/A, in either case an acceptable outcome so there is a great deal of flexibility in the configurations.
And then I still have the old unfinished chump car project out in the shed. That's a good solid '74.5 shell that I may consider using as a basis to build a new car. Already have the engine and most of the running gear so in a couple or three years it may make sense. The roadster after all isn't quite as straight as it might be. In that case the 340 could go back in the roadster and the stroker in the '74, perhaps along with the 8 speed. Time will tell. After all, I also want to build the parasite car for the bus RV.
Jim
Started the reassembly of the 340, first step was to install the new roller cam and this involved making a cam stop for it. As with the 300's I installed a brass plate behind the cam gear.
IMG_0038.JPG
Locating the two bolt holes is a little tricky as you have to miss the oil journals but it works out fine. I drilled a couple holes in the plate for oil drains. Presently waiting on a new rear oil seal and head gaskets but the rest is ready to go together except for the rocker shafts and pushrods. Have some work to do there.
Jim
Jim, I'm intrigued by your approach of using an LS ECU and HPTuners on your 340. I wonder if I could use the same approach on my 300/350 stroker as I intend to use some sort of off the shelf throttle body and probably stick with the Rover injectors (unless they turn out to be limiting--would be easy to upgrade them). I'm thinking this could be better than using the original Rover ECU or going with Megasquirt?
Eric, I'm presently running the ECM out of an '02 Silverado on my iron head 300 and will be using the same one on my stroker. It's a much more robust controller. Cannibalized a few junkyard harnesses. There is both free and not free tuning software. I like HP Tuners (easier) but PCMhammer and TunerPro RT have more versatility for things like transients tuning. Picked up 3 ECMs at the pick-n-pull for like $40 each and can clone them for spares. Running a modified Camaro tune. I have two issues: I have to bump the starter twice to start the engine (Have a new tank with an in-tank pump that I hope will cure that) and I have a lean then rich spike when shifting. Hoping to fix that with TunerPro this spring. Aside from that it runs very well.
If you use the '411 ECM (most popular) you must choose either throttle cable or FBW. The controllers are not both the same.
Jim
Jim, that's great--thanks. I was dreading having to consider something like Megasquirt and thought the Rover ECU might not have enough upside for my obviously much larger and better flowing engine. Plus I like going to get something at the junkyard. I do plan on using a TB with a throttle cable as I think it'll be easier to set up with the standard pedal and one less thing to have to figure out. Does the 411 ECM come in different versions by year? I would assume throttle cable bodies are just older vintage?
Look at the connectors. They all have a red one but blue or green for the other one denotes the type of throttle. (check the gas pedal and throttle linkage) I THINK blue is cable but double check. Also you don't have to run an airflow meter as you can run speed density instead with no real issues. 4bbl throttle bodies are common and run around $100-150 and are considerably shorter than a carb leaving plenty of room for an air cleaner.
This is if you are using port injection. Do you have a suitable intake with injector bosses? You will probably need injectors in about the 30-35 lb range, I think the 3.5L Rover used 19's. There will be a significant amount of wiring, I have posted important details here and on MGE. I like the Deutsch connectors and DelCity is a good source for the butt splices. You will need a fair handful of the smaller clear ones, hard to find them anywhere else.
I used the Gen IV LS sensors including the trigger wheel and pickup, just welded the trigger wheel to the back of the damper. I used the internal trigger wheel but there are some with regularly spaced teeth that apparently also work just fine. For the sensors use a shielded pair and ground the shield at the ECM end only.
I found the easiest way to do the cam sensor is to modify a distributor body and shaft but Buick did use one on the V6. They are not very common. You'd need to find a Regal, GN or Olds of the right year. On ebay they sometimes show up but asking price is usually about $250. For that money I could make my own but If I happened across one in the junkyard I'd sure snag it. Pretty obvious what it is, just the bottom of a distributor with a knob on top with a sensor.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
I am using the Rover EFI manifold, which I will modify to have a much larger plenum and wider/shorter trumpets. I know some have swapped out the Rover injectors, so that is definitely something I can do.
Appreciate the insight on the rest of the components--sounds very doable.
Best,
Eric