BritishV8 Forum

Reportedly some Dodge Intrepids. Anyone retrofitted to electric asisted rack ? Let's discuss. Thanks, roverman.

Art, Dodge Intrepid has conventional center steer rack and pinion, same as Cavalier but front steer. It is available with electronic variable assist(sensor and solenoid valve). I found the best Electric pump is Toyota second gen MR2. It has remote reservoir also. I don't know what the last one's from.            
Here are pics:
KGrHqMOKooE3FEgLpcSBN0YMftqYg_12.jpg
pspump2.jpg
reservoir1.jpg
powersteeringpump.jpg

As I recall, MGF was the first production car to have electric power steering, and that the rack looked exactly like a normal (non-power) rack because the power assist motor is actually on the steering column. You can see or buy all the components on eBay's UK website.

At least theoretically, electronic controls can make steering assist road-speed sensitive, self-adapting for tire and road surface variables, and even adaptable for driver preference. If I were working at an OEM, I'd be excited about these possibilities. In that context, if you must have power steering I expect electric is the future: ultimately it should be lighter, cheaper, and easier to package than hydraulics. But for an early adopter there will certainly be tradeoffs in terms of development costs and liability exposure.

I don't know why any able-bodied person would want power steering on their lightweight vintage sportscar. To make their car easier to parallel park? Dead weight! It must be surely be easier to alter caster, fit a larger diameter steering wheel, change steering rack gear ratio, etc.

I agree with you Curtis, but if you are older,disabled or your wife likes easier steering. Just another option. The Intrepid rack can be plugged and used as a manual also same as Cavalier. 3 turns lock to lock and 6" travel, about the same as MGB. The beauty of it is the ability to optimize your bump steer and ackerman by using a angle adapter the right length you can put the inner tie rod ends exactly where you want them.
tie20rod20bracket.jpg

Ok, I'm not disabled or a wife, maybe because I'm OLDER, yeah-thats it ! Not quite feeble, but truth be known, I just found out my C5 Vette front suspension clip has no "rack" to steer with. Maybe I should try to order a "special- manly" manual rack from the dealer ? Good Luck with that. Car will weigh approx 3k pounds with really-fat tires using lots of quick succession turns. I've heard nasty rumors of "real" race cars actually using power assist-discusting.  Cheers, roverman.

Art for the Vette clip you want Cavalier rear steer rack. Here is a pic with square tube adapter:
rpcenter.jpg

Thanks Jim, any possibility that will work with the Toyota electric pump ? Cheers, roverman.

Speedway motors has an adjustable pressure valve. The Cavalier and Intrepid rack are low pressure like Mustang II.(2 gpm) I know the normal GM power steering (other than Cavalier)is high pressure and normally require 3gpm at the rack. That's why Mustang II racks are twitchy with the GM pumps. Maybe the Variable assist valve on the Intrepid rack can be adapted to the Cavalier. You can use angle or flat bar for the adapter for rear steer also,here is a pic in a old pickup:
Original_cavalier_inner_tie_rods.jpg

Subaru used to have a pretty neat electric power steering setup.
When I worked for Subaru in the 80's we used to see the system on the XT6 cars. And then latter on the SVX.
It used a variable pressure electric pump and a mostly conventional rack.
Worked pretty well as I recall.
The whole system was modular and would retro fit easily.
Cheers
Fred

my coworker has a chevy hhr and his power steering was giving him troulble. There was no pump anywhere the belt went. Come to find out, it has electric power steering.

Yes electric power steering is becoming more comon on GM vehicles all the time. There is an electric motor mounted to the steering column along with the power steering control module. They can take up a fair amount of room under the dash, but flip side is the space saved on the engine.
The advantages include acurate speed sensitive steering, less road shock through the steering wheel and slightly improved fuel economy.
However sometimes they can lack "road feel" and in some applications are all most "to" easy to steer.

Bill

Similar thread on the MG Experience board.  Dan Masters pointed folks to an after market unit.  See pg. 56 in the current Street Rodder magazine.  I just got mine in the mail Friday - it's the January issue -- magazines seem to know something about the calendar the rest of us don't.

Are we describing  
"pure" electric assist versus electric powered hydralic system? It sounds like Bill J. is describing a "pure" electric assist, without hydraulics involved ? I have an associate with a Cad. CTS. The system mal-funtiontioned, and tried to steer him into a guard rail ! No factory recall, the mechanic downplayed as a faulty sensor. This could be tragic !  Thanks, roverman.

You started the thread!  

It can be tragic when ANY power steering system fails. For awhile when it was near death, my '71 Valiant's power steering would cut-in and cut-out on highway exit ramps. It was safer after I removed the power steering pump... Boy, that was a long time ago! Anyhow... having both electric and hydraulic parts to worry about seems like way too much complexity.

You could have the whole MGF system for about £120-150.  One benefit of this installation is that it doesn't add bulky parts to your engine compartment... apparently except for a speed sensor, the electric parts are on the dry side of the firewall. So clean! I wouldn't have it on my MGB, but I do think it's a nifty approach.

MGF-rack.jpg

MGF-steering-column.JPG

MGF-steering-ECU.JPG

Ford Escape has it.  I like it.

Yes, very cool! But,If you look at the pictures of the Intrepid variable assist and the remote power steering pump which can be mounted anywhere out of the way without crowding under dash area or replaceing steering column.

Art, Cavalier and other GM J bodies had variable assist option also. They also had a low pressure valved "sport" option for more road feel. These are all rear steer. Dodge Intrepid,Chrysler 300 etc. are front steer and are made by Delco also with same options. Based on Saab/Opel design. Commonly used to retrofit power steering or conversion from steering box type. My unknown pump picture is latest MR2 design with integral reservoir.

I think you guys just have the wrong wheels. I put 255's on the front of my MG and it steers easier than stock. Just change the offset to move the wheel in further. Oh yeah I forgot, it takes a 16 or 17" wheel to do that and clear the tie rod end.

JB

The after market one mentioned above (by Unisteer) is pure electric.  Appears similar to the MGF on Curtis pictured.  Ad says variable assist by sensing input torque to controversial.  And monitors parts - if detects a failure disengages and steering is same as if no assist.

Power rack isn't for a MGB, for an AMX,(almost British) ? I agree that for "most" folks, in a lightweight sports car, probably won't need ps. JH "might" benefit, time will tell. Thanks for the input, roverman.

I have the all electric unit sold by the guys in the Netherlands in my B... great addition.

The installation took about 3 hours working by myself, variable assist makes driving a breeze if there is a failure you revert to non assisted steering... no down side.

I recently installed electric power steering in a 1966 Mustang. I did not use a kit, I simply pulled a column style EPS from a newer GM vehicle and then spliced the unit into the original steering column.

The results far exceeded my expectations and the cost was less than $200. I designed a controller that automatically adjusts assist level based on vehicle speed, so that the steering feel is "just right" regardless of speed.

I documented (with pictures) how I went about this on a Vintage Mustang forum. If anyone is interested do a google search for "Best $200 mod ever (EPS)"

 or

follow this link to page 7 where the details start: http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/mod-custom-forum/787114-best-200-mod-ever-eps-7.html#post6037649

Any questions just ask.
Complete-slr.jpg

Is there room for that in an MGB?

Jim

I found this on the Web..  http://thedrivenman.com/c-786941-shop-by-category-electric-power-steering-mg.html

Re: Electric power rack steering
new
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: November 03, 2014 11:59AM

Is there room for that in an MGB?

Jim

I don't know, the actual EPS unit is quite compact, many small cars are retrofitting the Corsa EPS unit

Jeff,

Thanks for the info on the OEM electric power steering. I've been wanting to put one into my TGB for a while now. But couldn't reconcile the cost of an aftermarket unit. It never occurred to me to look for a production unit.
I picked one up from a 06 Equinox this afternoon. $200.00 complete with the full column. Steering wheel, covers, controls, tilt mechanism and the ignition switch with a key! Ordered the basic controller off of Ebay just to get started. And we'll see where it goes from there. Maybe one of the megasquirt outputs can be utilized.
I haven't been this excited in a while, the lovely Lynne is going to be disappointed.

Jim,

I just held it up to a 78 "B" and it looks like it should fit without too much trouble. Certainly far easier than converting to hydraulics.
I'll send some pictures as soon as I'm calm enough to handle the camera.

Cheers
Fred

Live like you mean it.

Jim,

The moment you drive it with the EPS, it will put a smile on your face.

Don't hesitate to ask questions.

Very interesting indeed. Mine won't get changed over right away, the steering is pretty light now and there are more pressing issues like the transmission controller, but this is something I know a lot of guys will be drooling over.

Jim

Ok, so here's the unit stripped of most of it's extraneous stuff.
IMGP9535.JPG
The sheet it's laying on has a 2" grid for sizing purposes.
IMGP9536.JPG
Here it is stripped to it's bare essentials.
IMGP9540.JPG
Make sure that you get the connector pigtails, as they are unique. I forgot so I'll have to go back and cut them off.
IMGP9541.JPG
So there you go!
A really simple setup.

Cheers
Fred

Live like you mean it.

Another alternative is to mount it in the engine compartment down by the rack. Steering column would remain stock, just shaft shortened. That would only work with the 4 cyl cars, V6's and  V8's have no room there. Check out this Cobra setup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKzCaEjvJeM

Picked one from an '05 Equinox for a winter project. I've been thinking about a conversion for a couple years. At these prices, it's a no brainer! Can't wait to get it worked out.  Mike

Jim, how long is the Intrepid unit and what years were they produced.  Right now it looks like a adaptor to the center link of my TR3 and a set of brackets to mount it to the frame and I have rack and pinion without all the bump steer development time as the outer tie rods are attached to the stock link in the stock location.  My concern now is length and if it will fit without getting into the swing arms.
I have found dimensions for the unit and the years of manufacture.  Looks like the first generation without the speed sensor is shorter.  Does the mounting for the tie rods rotate around the rack (bolt holes 180* from what is pictured)
Thanks
Greg

Greg, I've seen a piece of angle used to mount tie rods above or below. The tie rods  should be parallel with lower control arm at ride height to prevent bump steer.

Jim, after spending a day looking at pictures of the intrepid unit and checking length figures with the TR3 I have decided to get a unit and try to install it.  My main concern is the length.  The TR3 is only about 21 inches between the main frame tubes and the intrepid unit is 34 5/8 inches overall.  At that length the tires get into the ends of the unit on a full lock turn.  What interests me now is if the hyraulic features of the unit can be removed making the unit shorter.  The unit without the speed feature looks to be shorter by a few inches on the left hand end and depending on what is inside the tube on the right hand end of the unit may be just enough.  For $65 I'll cut one up.
Greg

Greg, Cavalier rack is the same but rear steer.  You would have to point the steering arms the other way. Are you going to use the MR2 electric pump also? If you  use the GM belt driven pump you will need a restrictor(Speedway Motors) like when using the Mustang II rack. You can mount the rack lower or higher to clear and use a taller piece of angle for the tie rod connection. Looking down from above you should be as parallel  as possible with spindles for correct Ackerman also. Have you thought about a Vega steering box like street rod steering.

Greg, Here is another thread on the Intrepid rack:

http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?40,1793689

Ok, So are any of these electro-magnetic ? Would they steer "backwards", south of the equator ?  My brother built a T-bucket, with reverse steering. He claimed it was a theft deterent, and I must admit, I never stole it from him. Onward, in the right direction. roverman.

Funny!
Where ya' been Art? We missed ya'.

Jim

Art, It has been pretty quiet around here! LOL

I know someone that just finished up an under the dash installation. He's not ready to spill the beans, yet. I guess there will be a line at the next V8 Meet to try it out. I predict there will be many more going down this road.

QuoteI know someone that just finished up an under the dash installation. He's not ready to spill the beans, yet. I guess there will be a line at the next V8 Meet to try it out. I predict there will be many more going down this road.

Out of respect I'm not going to share any details, but I've seen some pictures and asked some questions. It is REALLY slick. I never thought I would but I'm actually thinking about doing this at some point down the road.

After driving mine for 26 years with out power assisted steering, I still don't think I need/want it. That may change after a test drive.  :)

OK Carl, you called me out. I did get the Equinox unit in and functioning like in the Cobra video Jim posted. I was trying to wait until I could get some road miles on it to say anything. Sitting still, it seems to be amazing. You can adjust the boost from "off" to feather light with a turn of a knob! I can't wait to get it out in the spring.  Mike

Pictures Mike, we gotta have pictures.

Jim

I figured it was you Mike! Did you mount it under the dash or make room in the engine compartment? Pictures would be cool!

DID NOT!

I do have a pic now that Mikey has owned up to it.    ;)

ElectricPowerSteering.jpg

Have no clue what the boy is going to do the rest of the winter.    :)

I wonder if Mike is following Chris's 300 Stroker thread on the Mgexperience board?

Jim,  Yes I've watching Chris's project closely!  Don't know if I'm ready to go down that rabbit hole quite yet! Couple years ,maybe.          But this EPS deal is easy to do. The under dash bracket needs cut for clearance. The hardest job was getting the bracket out so I could relief cut it. There is a stud and nut coming from the hood hinge that has to be removed to get the bracket out. The motor wires right up with the Bruno controller. I did take the control box off the motor ,and hid it under the dash.  Mike

Mike, Cool!  Keep us posted.

A couple pics.
underdash.jpg
column.jpg
boostknob.jpg

So Mike, which pieces are what? MG parts, other parts, ???

Jim

Jim,  The ends are both MG. The shafts were cut and spliced with some of the Equinox shaft pieces spliced in. The lower outer tube is made of exhaust adaptors and pipe. Took a drive today!!  This thing makes it a blast to drive! I need to dial in a little more castor to get the wheel to self center faster. With Ted's front end ,I'm running about 2 degrees now. It is just so smooth to drive!    Mike

Mike, 5-6 castor is good for self centering. Probably shim between frame and back crossmember bolts.

Mike, I noticed you wrote,   " I did take the control box off the motor and hid it under the dash."    I do hope you made a HEAT SINK for the high power components in side the controller, the use of the 80 amp fuse is a clue. That white stuff you wiped off was heat sink compound. They were using the body of the steering unit as a heat sink, hence the white heat sink compound. If you did not, you need to install a fairly large heat sink to the controller. I would use a piece of alum. 1/4 - 3/8 thick X 3"x5" cut to fit the screw holes, then apply some heat sink compound.
Mike, I would limit the use until the heat sink is installed as those high power devices will self destruct.
charles

Charles ,
You are right about the heat sink. I did screw a large piece of aluminum back on the motor. I even had some old heat conductive compound in stock to make the connection. I don't think our #2500 cars will ever get the motor hot. I read the high amp fuse was for when someone holds full lock on the steering wheel. I have a 30 amp fuse in-line with #6 power cable going to the battery. Fuse holder is rated for more if needed. I won't be able to any more testing until the snow melts.
Mike

Mike, I am proud for you. You do good, very good work. I did not think you would let something slip by.
Did you remove the shafts before welding? The bad thing is all of your handy work is hidden from view.
charles

Thanks Charles,
The best thing to do is take the column out, and take an overall shaft measurement without u-joint. Then you have to work down the column starting at the steering wheel placement. I used the two mounting bolts as a benchmark. The late column has three mount bolts. You end up eliminating the odd one. I used a pipe cutter to cut the upper tube off the EPS. The shaft cuts were done with hack saw.I used the splined slip joint from the EPS unit as a coupling. Welded a piece of the inside splined tube to the MG shaft down past the steering lock sleeve. I used a 3/4" wooden dowel to mock up the length. I'll try to post some pics of the inner shafts this weekend.  Mike

Hi Mike,

Anymore photos? I just went to the recycle yards and picked up two Saturn Vue electric steering setups. I should have took the steering columns with me hmmm. The steering was $41 a piece. Cheap way for power steering!! One was out of an 03 and one out of an 07


2014-12-2214.15.59.jpg

Mike, when you relocated the controller. Did you uplug either end or did you cut and splice the white and blue wires? I am doing my car now, with your OK I will post some pictures and HIDIDIT.
charles

Calvin,
These EPS units are so perfect for our cars. The price and availability make them very attractive. It is going to be helpful to have the whole column for tubes and shaft parts. I took mine back out of the my car to make some final measurements in case I need to build a couple more units. Not sure what kind of picture you want, but I can surely make it happen. Let me know.

Charles,
I didn't want disturb the factory connections on the boards, so I cut and spliced the white and blue wires using small speaker wire. Be careful of matching them back up. They are position sensors. One pair is for the right turn and one pair is for left turn. Mixing them up is not good! I soldered and heat shrunk the joints for security. I made them quite long and tie wrapped them close to the ends as to keep them from pulling on the factory connections.

I have a column out of a GT in stock that I'm going to convert. I have found the over all length is different on the earlier columns compared to the later rubber bumper columns. Keep me posted on your progress. I'll help any way I can.
                                                                                    Capt'n

Mike, thanks. I am using the slip joint top and bottom, that way measurements do not need to be precise. That does add the extra ujoint that has to be handled
I found out the hard way, those little white and blue wires do not unplug, they are soldered at both ends. I made a quick trip to Pull-A-Part this past Sat. at 23F for replacement. Did you know those places are not heated?
See you in Indy.
charles

Mike,
This steering setup calls for a write up on this site. It would be awesome for all who want this type of steering. I may do the write up for the TR6 side. It would be good with lots of photo's and how it was done. I'm sure a lot would step on over to side of power steering the electric way.

I need to go back and pick up the top side of the steering wheel assembly, witch are probably still there at the recycle yard in the car, if not there is two more cars at close by yards.

Yes, a comprehensive writeup would be excellent, I'm sure this will become a hit. But just the info you guys have posted already is great.

Jim

The car that really needs this is a TR7.   Small steering wheel and a little hard to steer.  TR8s came with factory power steering, but those racks are as rare as hen's teeth.

Jim, I believe Dan is trying to tell you something.  ;)

Yeah we've talked about this. But first things first, Edith is threatening to jack the rent up on him.

Jim

Charles,  
  When you get ready to wire the unit up, the control box needs to be grounded . I just ran a small wire to the cover screw. Under the cover you can see the board has a ground on that screw.
                                 Mike

Mike,  thanks, I kinda thought that.  Had some challenges getting my contoller. Almost gave up and made my own vss controller till I discovered its CAN data.
 Are you going to do a write-up? I have taken lots of pictures and taken measurement so If you do not want to I may.
charles

Knock your self out! I'm more of a talker, than a writer.
I haven't checked on the progress of the guy building the VSS controller lately. He was trying to get it to market soon.
   Mike

Are you not using the controller ordered from the internet? There is another one? I found out that I have a nephew that is now working for a firm in Germany that is making EPS units. He lives on MI and now in France working on an issue. When he returns I will quiz him.
I have read some on the two purple wires goin to the controller, appears they may be CAN data. i think the sensors that are monitored by the car ECM are speed, brakes, turning or not, stability control, and maybe a couple others. Straight-up learning again. Adaptive EPS responce for our cars may be a bit much.
I will start a write-up soon with pictures and measurements.
charles

Charles, if it's tied into the CAN bus that probably means it takes commands to modify steering boost based on vehicle speed. Not a bad feature when you think about what you need for parking and for cruising. This could probably be made to work out well with the MegaSquirt controller that a number of us use without too much difficulty since it is already set up for CAN bus communication.

Jim

Jim B, I now find another write-up saying serial data from the ECM to determine speed. Some guy on another site is working on a Yaris unit that uses VSS. Someone else is working on a different controller but facing legal stuff. Who knows? I want my set-up working then re-engineer.

Mike M, I did recieve my Bruno controller and have started connecting it, did not work at first. I found that second shift had left a cold solder joint, good help getting hard to find. Fixed that, now working. I have almost completed the set-up then I will start a write-up.

charles

That's great Charles.

 I'm working on the TR6 steering column. The difference is the TR6 column is aluminum. So I'm waiting for different size's of aluminum so I  can weld the steering wheel side of the column together, and the bottom side of the column.

It will be great to see your write up!

Calvin, "I am watching you". Brenda's GT is looking good. I just wish i hadn't been asleep on the fuel tank.
charles
PS see you in Indy

Charles,  My controller is the Bruno. I better look closer at the joints! What column did you end up using?

      There is a guy on the Mustang forum trying to build and sell an auto type controller. He started with the Bruno and has developed his own. In August, it wasn't on the market yet. I haven't checked lately.

Calvin, Brenda's car is going to be epic!

                                     Mike

Mike, I am using the 77 B column , upper and lower. On the B I cut the upper just after the lock portion. On the Vue portion I cut at a point so the dia. of both pieces were about the same. Then I had my machine true and weld.
P1050101640x480.jpg

On the lower sections I cut the B shaft about 8 inches from the u-joint splines. On the Vue shaft below the u-joint I cut leaving about 4-5 inches, then I had the machine shop machine the lower portion to slip fit inside the B shaft.
 16leftVuelowerrightBlower.jpg

When all installation is done I will drill thru both lower shafts then bolt and lock nut.
charles

After reading this Forum Topic I too got interested and this is what I came up with. I used a 2005 Equinox Electric Power Steering (EPAS) and the Bruno controller. Using Mikes pictures to start the project, I patterned my column after his. Removing the steering control from the unit and lengthening the wires allowed  the re-location and addition of a heat sinc. I tried to attach as many pictures showing the steer column modifications and the final install.

Needless to say, It appears to function great. If anyone needs more info or more pictures, let me know.
oldandnewcompare600x338.jpg

IMG_20150111_172244027600x338.jpg

ElectricPowerSteering028600x450.jpg

ElectricPowerSteering021600x450.jpg

Page 2 of electric power steering
Lowersteeringshaft.jpg

lowersteeringhousing450x600.jpg

lowersteeringassy600x450.jpg

IMG_20150111_172244027600x338.jpg

Page 3
relocatedsteeringcontrol600x338.jpg


Brunocontrollerheatsincandsteeringcontroller600x338.jpg


50ampfuseholderBrunocontrolpotmountedcolumn600x338.jpg

Way to go Paul!  That looks really sweet. You'll be amazed when you drive it.
                    Waiting for Indy,   Mike

Very nice clean install Paul!

For anyone looking to do this conversion and don't have a wrecking yard close by....Here is one on e-bay for $179.00 right now!. It has everything from steering wheel down out side the fire wall. It came out of a 2007 Saturn Vue. The air bag is out of the steering wheel. It will cost a lot more if it is in there when you pull out of a wrecking yard. Its in Saint Louis MO...They want $75 to ship.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/02-07-SATURN-VUE-05-06-EQUINOX-ELECTRIC-POWER-STEERING-PUMP-MOTOR-ASSEMBLY-OEM-/181639819049?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a4a93af29&vxp=mtr

Mike, "holy shazam MOORGONE" it's alive. Took the B for a test ride today, steering much more better.
charles

Mike, Charles and Paul:

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the EPS conversion and posting pictures.  I admire your abilities to attack a project and make something work that's not yet mainstream.  I have a 77' B and  I've gotten my used Saturn EPS and have my controller on order.  I'll try to follow in your footsteps, but I have a few questions:

Mike and Paul, it appears that you both modified the upper outer column in the same way, but used somewhat different approaches on the lower outer column.  Mike, is the weld between your fabricated lower tube and the original Saturn mounting bushing the only point of attachment for the lower tube?  If there's another attachment, how did you do it?  Paul, I'm assuming you fabricated the two-eared flange that mounts the lower tube  to the EPS housing?  What gage steel did you use for the flange and what diameter tubing is welded to the flange?  Also, did you use exhaust tubing for part of the column as Mike did?  Mike, what diameter of tubing did you start with at the EPS and finish with at the original MGB lower column mounting point?  

It seems like everyone is relocating the control unit away from the motor.  Is that just for cosmetics or would it hang low enough to hit it with your legs?  

Is everyone comfortable with the strength of the modified column and it's mounting points in the MGB?  It seems to me that the modified outer column might be subjected to some twisting forces not present in the original MGB design.  The Saturn donor incorporates a robust mount on the EPS body, which we're deleting.  Just thought I'd throw that out for consideration.

Thanks in advance for any answers, suggestions or additional pictures you can offer.
Mike

Mike,
  I did make a mounting flange from 1/8" plate. I drilled a 2 1/2" hole in the flange and tig welded (silicon- bronze filler rod) a 2 1/4" to 2 1/8" reducer (Walker# 41854) to the plate. ( I drilled an access hole in the reducer to enable tightening the bolt on the lower universal joint.)  To that I welded a 2" to 1.5" reducer (Walker# 41886) to align with the expanded metal of the original column. This enabled me to retain part of the collapsible column. I used longer metric bolts through the gear reducer unit to fasten the lower tube. I did make some spacers to keep the ears from bending in when securing.
ElectricPowerSteering024600x450.jpg

lowersteeringhousing450x600.jpg

ElectricPowerSteering025600x450.jpg
 
If you need any thing else, let me know.  
BTW I can second everything  Mike and Charles said. This works great.

Hi Mike,
  My lower is only welded to the brace in that one area. At first I was concerned about rotational force on the column, but once it was installed the unit is very firm. The two mount bolts on the upper seem to be taking the force fine. I see there are two bolts under the shelf that I could use to mount a "U" shaped bracket and tie back to the lower tube if any weakness shows up. I'm really waiting to get some more road test time to check everything out.
  Relocating the box isn't needed for leg room, it is just looks for me. At 5"11", it didn't hit my legs.
                      Mike

Thanks guys, I appreciate the information !
Mike

For those of us without the fabrications skills, one of you could have a business opportunity here! Sure there are others who wants this type of product without the $2K UK costs.

Mike P, here is what I did. Unit installed in 66 B. I used late model B upper column because of damage to orignal shaft.
leftMGBrightVue.jpg
left MGB right Vue
leftVuelowerrightBlower.jpg
left Vue lower  right B lower
unitassembledwithmods..JPG
unit assembled with mods
uppercolumnhousing.JPG
upper column housing with mods

charles

Mike P, a couple more pictures,
modstomountcolumnhousing.JPG
mods made to cross bar for support for column housing
mountingbracketsforEPShead.JPG
mounting brackets for EPS head

I did relocate the controller, like Mike M. said may not be needed. If you do relocate  the controller be carefull and don't ask me why.

Hi Charles,

I just took a moment to check the forum and saw your post.  Very interesting!
If I'm correct, it looks like you've stayed close to the Saturn mounting design and don't use a full length MGB type lower outer tube. I'm assuming you use the very lower part of the MGB outer column simply to act as a bearing where the shaft exits through the footwell firewall ??  
I had the same thought as Mike Stemp, regarding a cottage industry for one of you, but with the details you guys have provided, it seems pretty straight-forward.

Thanks again, to all three of you.

Mike

I like the idea of retaining the collapsible part of the steering column. Plus if one of you guys made a kit you'd have to have that feature.

Jim

Guys, the early B never did have any part that was collapsible, just a straight through shaft. I have considered using a late model unit with the collapsible function.
I have no thoughts of trying to work up a kit for this, worked to hard to get what I have. As far as the adaptive control function, well there is no other adaptive anything on this car.

See you guys in Indy if not before
charles

Yes, the collapsible column (at least in the USA) was introduced for 1968 production, with the Federal Safety Standards.
Probably in todays litigious society any steering modification would involve way too much legal exposure to the seller to be financially worthwhile unless they're making big money and have some control over the contents of the kit and the installation process.  There goes your creativity and our inexpensive power steering.

It could be done as a kit with the major assembly steps done, leaving some of the assembly and the install to the owner. With the appropriate disclaimers of course. The collapsible feature would be a necessity.

Jim

Jim,

Just as Fast Cars lists on their front sub-frame, "For Racing Only". That sort of disclaimer might suffice all the safety nannies.

Hi guys first time poster here thought you might like to see my twist on the poweer steering install.
IMG_0329.JPG
flipped unit to tuck motor up under dash
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Used a stamped steel pillow block housing for the front mount still need to fab tabs on front of dash support
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I used a section of pinion shaft off a junk rack & pinion  and a Woodward steering u joint (part # UA114109 ) to connect to the MGB u joint
found a 3/4 " id bearing and 3 bolt flange at a farm supplie store that fit the shaft and bolted too my car like it was made for it
IMG_0328.JPG
Fire wall mounting bracket

Very nice install!

Hi Robert,

I'm curious why you chose not to use the MGB upper outer column mount, which mates with the dash bracket ?
I really like your firewall mounting bracket !  If there were one piece it would be nice to be able to buy ready-made it would be that.

Mike.

I believe your taking about the column support bracket I removed to make room for my install. Three of the four bolts holding my firewall mount were used on the column support bracket. I used the pillow block housing because it was quick and easy.

Bob

Here is another view of my mount
IMG_0313.JPG
 Bob

Getting closer, had to use 1" spacer ECM and modify the defroster with a 1 1/4" id exhaust tubing bend

[attachment 16215 IMG_0343.JPG
        Bob

I ment to say 1" spacer under the ECM
Bob

Just for the Record, I did not spill the beans. Mikey spilled his own beans! BTW this thread was started in 2011.

QuoteRe: Electric power rack steering
Posted by: Capt'n Moorgone
Date: November 11, 2014 08:09AM

Picked one from an '05 Equinox for a winter project. I've been thinking about a conversion for a couple years. At these prices, it's a no brainer! Can't wait to get it worked out. Mike

Finished my conversion and drove my MG, what a difference. Low speed maneuvering and parking is easy one handed operation now.  Once out on the road dial out the assist and car drives like stock.
IMG_0344.jpg
ready for final install
IMG_0346.JPG
Attaching control box and fuse holder to mounting bracket made for clean tidy wiring.
IMG_0349.JPG
IMG_0355.JPG

Robert S. Good show. Neat the way you did it. After all we don't got no stinking rule book.
charles

Thanks Charles I appreciate the thumbs up.
Bob

I found out from Mike Moor that this disease is called EPS. It must be contagious cause it seems to be quite rampant here. ;)

May have to have an EPS therapy session at the Indy Meet!

Bob has a great solution for hiding the unit up under the dash. Nice job Bob!

Beware, EPS is very contagious! I noticed the seller of the control box has sold over 800 units. That's up from 400, just since November. If anyone has caught the disease and needs the cure, I would be willing to supply it. Send me a PM.

There may be a few EPS deniers out there, the flat earth types. I love this conversion its made my MGB feel like the light nimble sports car that it should be.

Dan B told me he recently drove a rental Celica (Corolla?) which had paddle shift and almost certainly EPS. Might be a good donor vehicle for the whole column? Hmmm...

Of course, I already have the paddle shifters made up and I like the stock steering wheel but the EPS on that car might be even more compact.

Jim

Robert,

The Earth is neither flat nor round. It is an illusion!  :)

The earth is an illusion? Funny, it didn't feel like an illusion last time I fell down, but maybe that was an illusion too...

Of course it was.  ;)

It was a Corolla.  Go figure!

Maybe it was an illusion Jim.

Did you fall down onto the earth.....or did the earth fall up into you????    oooooohhhhhh.

Or really, did it happen at all?

I'm so confused...

QuoteI'm so confused...

Blame it on dark energy!

Or flashbacks

Plausible deniability, there's no place like matrix, there's no place like matrix. Dorothy-dear- jus' run with your grand illusion.  For some, there is no gravity, earth jus' sucks.  What was the subject ??

Did any non-Power Steering guys get the chance to try the electric power steering at the BritishV8 meet?

I vollunteered my car to several, but never seemed to get the time! Bill Yobi and Tim Duhamel did drive the autocross in it. Bill clipped the first cone turning in too fast on his first run. I'm not sure about anyone driving Charles' or Paul's cars. Lots of interest in the system. I took a unit for show and tell.

Thanks Mike! I was just curious. I think it's a great idea.

I did not drive Mike's car this time.  Man oh man, where did the time go?

I did sit in Charles Long's car in Townsend back in the spring & verified Mike's comment about one finger steering & that was with the car sitting still. Pretty cool that you can dial more or less assist as you prefer.

I had Mike power it up and played with the wheel with it parked. Very nice, and I doubt you lose any significant amount of road feel if at all.

Jim

Brenda drove Charles MGB around the parking lot, she was amazed at how easy it turned like a later car on the road feel.
So need to add to the honey due list for her build.

I wanted her to do the same with Dan Masters GT, but as Carl said time flew by so fast.

Calvin, I think I heard you say you have a Flamming River column, is it tilt?  I have a street rod buddy that want me to take a look at his rod and see I think he can add the EPS to his Flamming River tilt.  When I look I will leave a reply here.

Charles, Yes it is the one that has tilt, and it is the shorty one. It may take some more firewall fab work, but anything for Brenda is worth the extra work. I don't know if I want to cut up the Flamming River column at this point, since the $ was kicking me hard in the rear cheek.

I think Ken H. has a Fiero tilt in the TR6, might look at that. Both being GM might work, then I have a tilt Camaro column, I will look at it. I also have a Honda Civic tilt, I will look at all of them.

Are you going to reworking the dash? If you are reworking the dash, most anything might work.

Spent some time in the garage and worked on EPS for the TR6.

 Used a lot of the Saturn Vue steering column parts and TR6 column parts to make the TR6 column with EPS.

The TR6 column is very thin walled aluminum, so bought 1.50 120 walled aluminum tubing, cut off a piece at 1 3/4" long. I cut the TR6 column down, then pressed the column into the 1 3/4" part (using HF press). Drilled and tapped the pressed in area into the Saturn metal tubing 3 bolt hole flange that was cut down. The outside diameter of the pressed in column fit pretty tight inside the Saturn metal flange part. drilled 4 holes that were tapped with 8-32 machine screws at 3/8" long. Cut down the steering wheel side of the Saturn main shaft so the about 1" spline was left. The slide on piece from the Saturn column onto the main shaft, I cut down right where it flairs out. Then cut down the TR6 steering shaft (steering wheel side) to the right length, Tig welded the TR6 steering shaft to the cut flaired end of the Saturn slide on main shaft. That took care of the steering wheel side.

The fire wall side I bought a Woodward steering joint that matches the spline, and has 3/4" weld in on the other end. Cut down the TR6 steering shaft and Tig welded it in. Took the outer telescopic Saturn tube and cut it to length.Took out the bearing in the end and pressed another on in that was 3/4"ID. Tig welded that to the steel mounting shaft on the EPS unit. Then drilled a hole in the bottom rib of the EPS unit, slowly turned in a bolt to thread the aluminum. Used that hole and fabed out a brace bracket and tig welded to the Saturn tube. Made a aluminum spacer under the bracket for the bolt to go through.

Hope that all makes sense.


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The next task is to get the original steering column out and fit this EPS unit in. Will need to move the ignition switch into the dash or transmission tunnel brace. The key location on a 74 TR6 for locking steering, is in a bad location I have always thought.

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More photos!


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Calvin, Wow, Looks like factory engineering!

Looks like the Sunbeam Alpine and Tiger guys discovered electric power steering back in 2012:

http://catmbr.org/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=1746

Yeah, but this thread pre-dates (Nov. 2011) that.  ;)

And power steering was first installed on an MG circa ~1995, as documented here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_F_/_MG_TF

The words Alpine and Tiger are being used together as though they are the same.  In this case, nothing could be farther from the truth as the steering components are entirely different.  I think that step one on such an endeavor  would be "Remove engine".   But the idea is a hard one to shake.  Has anyone ever seen any information on Alpine EPS?

Bill

Just finished an install into a Volvo p1800.
It transformed the car! Was a complete bear to drive at low speeds and during parking.
Now it's a pleasure to drive. Couldn't be happier.
Should have taken pictures during the modification but didn't have my camera here yesterday.
Remote mounted the control unit and flipped the assist unit upside down so that the pedals had max clearance.
Took an afternoon including some time on the lathe.
Will definitely do it again.
IMGP9618.JPG
Fit well into a car with no room.
IMGP9619.JPG
Cheers
Fred

Fred, what did the EPS unit come out of?

05 Equinox

Fred, Very well done!

Any news on the VSS controller?

I haven't seen anything yet. I have about 5000 miles on mine this summer. You get used to it pretty quickly. The VSS could help the over 45 mph cruising. Definitely need to be careful in the early cars with the quicker rack ratio. I still get a smile on my face when driving!

What controller are you guys using? Looking to do the Saturn vue to mgb swap

Conner,
As posted elsewhere:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=182008071875
Ken

What exactly does the Bruno box do?
It has a pot, it has power. Does it do any more than just send a variable voltage?

Jim

QuoteThe controller processes the steering effort and hand wheel position through a series of algorithms for assist and return to produce the proper amount of polarity and current to the motor.

http://www.knowyourparts.com/technical-articles/electronic-power-steering/

HIWD on a V8 RX7.

http://www.driftworks.com/forum/chassis-suspension-steering/176479-electric-powered-steering-coumn-my-guide.html

So a pot and a chip, but we don't know what the chip outputs to the controller. Could be a complex waveform, could be a reference voltage. Or anything in between.

Jim

Well, if it's running algorithms, it's kinda hard to build it unless you can copy & burn PROMs.

Too bad somebody hasn't been able to put a scope on the output yet. There are just two wires going to the controller. Two wires from the pot to the Bruno, a hot wire and a ground. The Bruno was described as, "having a small chip" (which these days might not mean much).

I have a bit more than an academic interest. On my bench is sitting an electric power steering pump which I thought could be a good portable source of hydraulic power, like maybe for a tubing bender or something. But it also has inputs for control. Interestingly enough the built-in controller takes DC and creates a 3-phase current to power the motor so just wiring it direct would not work. Probably a waste of time and money to mess with it and I may end up throwing it away but I was curious enough to pick it up at the junkyard, and to take it apart.

Jim

Lots of great info on EPS/EPAS. Backs up Fred Key on not needing the Bruno module.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/35-electric-power-steering-with-fail-safe-no-ebay-module-and-no-caster-issues.363066/

Sh!t, I'm running out of excuses for putting this off!

Great info Carl! Are you considering it?

Great info Carl!! Thanks for finding and sharing. Looks like no more excuses not to transform your driving experience! It'll make you faster through the Mountains!

They were discussing it over on the main MG Experience. Someone linked that page. I was amazed at all the info there. Figured it need to be here, as well.  ;)

That could work out really good. I've been driving the RM with the Bruno dial set in various positions and have just about settled on 3/8 as being the best setting. 1/2 is also good. So if those other units in limp mode run at about 1/2 it should be a good set up. Although you CAN vary the setting for different driving conditions, in a very practical sense it is best to find one setting that will work acceptably well for all conditions and just leave it there, and that is exactly what most drivers will do.

I had not noticed the lack of centering but next time I drive the car I will check it out. Considering the light weight of the car, one of the two smaller units should work well, hard to say yet which might be the better choice. But few new cars are in the 2100-2500 lb weight range, or even sub 2700 lb. That should be a consideration when selecting a unit, as should steering rack ratio or turns lock-to-lock. Perhaps the turns should be a divisor of the weight in making a comparison. That would give us some real numbers that we could use.

Jim

Since this is THE main thread on EPS/EPAS, I am cross-posting this from the Triumph section thread.

QuotePick your donor car EPS very carefully. Why buy a Bruno box if it's a set it & forget it situation. Fail Safe mode may be all we need for our LBC.

The Bruno controller is needed for the Saturn Vue, Chevrolet Equinox, etc. do NOT have a factory Fail Safe mode built-in in case it is disconnected from the original vehicle's CAN bus system. Fred Key put an oscilloscope on a Bruno & found out that is about all it does, give the Saturn Vue a fail safe mode (with a potentiometer).

According to this tutorial linked below, a Japanese EPS can be used in Fail Safe mode without the need of a Bruno Box & its variable assist.

The Saturn Vue steering does not self-center well (Mike Moor has discovered this, as well). The author suggests that a Toyota Prius electric steering ECU could be used on the Vue to correct this, as they have the same torque sensor.

[www.forabodiesonly.com]

Dan and I looked up the weights of the Corolla and Prius. About 2500 and 2800 lbs.

Jim

Ok, so what would be the EPS of choice, for a heavier car, say 3,600 lbs ?  Thanks, art.

Maybe the Equinox?

The earlier MGB (CB) steering rack has 2.9 turns L-L so for a 2200lb car that'd give us a steering force factor of about 755 which would vary depending on the tires and any suspension mods. The  RB MGB with a 3.5 ratio and about 200 lbs more weight comes to 685. The MG-RM at 2700 lbs would be 931. Wider tires will increase this number.

The '05 Corolla at 2500 lbs has 3.4 turns and works out to a factor of 735, a pretty good match for the 2200 lb (CB) MGB. Possibly a good choice for almost any MGB.

Specs for the Prius are all over the place, anywhere from 2.28 to 4 turns depending on the source, and apparently the tire size. You'll just have to check the individual car. If it is 2.28 (15" wheels) the number is 1,228. If 3.02 (16" wheels) the number is 927. Both those specs are from a Toyota publication. Whether they both use the same EPS unit is an unknown, but my guess would be that they do not.

Since we are looking for best match in Limp mode, the Corolla looks like a good bet for most MGBs, and the 16" Prius for most more extreme MGBs. The 15" Prius would likely give very light steering, but might be good for a car of about 2700 lbs with unusually wide tires.

Jim

From Tony Gentile's thread: List of EPS Units

QuoteBelow is the list of cars that have Fail-Safe Electric Power Steering columns, this means that Only 3 wire connection. Ignition On, Power and Ground to the Steering ECU. That's it ! These units will run in limp mode, which is a power assist that is more than enough to supply power steering to the light weight of our little hot rods, and if there is a full failure revert back to your original manual steering

2004-2009 Toyota Prius
2009-2013 Toyota Corolla
2006-2011 Toyota Yaris - (With ABS)
2007-2009 Nissan Versa
2009-2012 Nissan Cube
2012-2014 Kia Soul

ECU Part Numbers:

2004-2009 Toyota Prius 89650-47102
2009-2013 Toyota Corolla 89650-02300
2006-2011 Toyota Yaris - (With ABS) 89650-52120 / 52050
2007-2009 Nissan Versa 28500-EM30A / 991-30303
2009-2012 Nissan Cube 28500-1FC0B / JL501-000932
2012-2014 Kia Soul B2563-99500 / 4PSG1312 / FPSG1312

I pulled this list off of the forum "For A Bodies Only" and a post by waid302, Below is a direct link to this post

[www.forabodiesonly.com]

Hi everyone.  Very interesting information.

Has anyone compared the Nissan Versa EPS physically to the Saturn Vue EPS ?
It looks like it uses a similar three bolt flange to mount the upper column to the motor.
That might make it an easy swap for any of us who have modified the MGB mount to bolt to the Vue EPS motor.

Mike

I just picked up a unit today from an 08 Nissan Versa. Laying it next to my 74.5 BGT column looks like it won't be too difficult to make work. I did power it up using the red and black wires with it mounted in a vise, it would turn easily to the right but didn't seem to work turning left. There is a small electrical box integral to it with 4 small wires coming from it, any of those needed?

Has anyone considered the Yaris for the EPS?   The Yaris is about the same weight as the MGB and the ECM can control the motor in either fail safe (three wires) or with a square wave speed signal.  The speed signal could be generated from the drive shaft with the appropriate hall effect sensor.  Comments??  
Any final feedback on the comments about the Saturn units lack of self centering?

I picked up one out of a '09 Corolla yesterday. Haven't had a chance yet to do anything more than look at it, but the housing diameter is about 1/2" smaller than the one in the Roadmaster and the motor is 1/8" smaller in diameter. Otherwise very similar I think.

Jim

I've kind of lost track of the options...  Have we come up with one that can take a VSS signal or similar to have variable assist?  Without an extra external controller?  I'm thinking longevity - don't want to rely on a part made by someone who might not be making them any more 5-10 yrs down the road.

I found from driving the Roadmaster that there is really very little need to change the setting. It's a preference thing of course but I've pretty much left it center scale. If that is the default with no input I think it'll be fine that way.

Jim

Had a chance to bench test the EPS unit the other day and it works just fine. Battery positive is on the heavy blue lead, found that by testing. It is the closest one to the red motor lead.

The control unit has four plugs, power, motor, feedback, and control. The motor and feedback plugs go back in the same way they came out so nothing to change there. The power plug has 2 heavy leads. The control plug has 3 wires, a twisted pair and a single lead which in this case I think was also blue. It appears the twisted pair is for variable output control because when I had the battery hooked up to the power leads with blue to + and connected the blue control lead to + I heard a relay click in the control unit after a second or so and knew I was on to something. Afterwards, twisting the input shaft with a small pair of visegrips caused a clear boost in power to the output. Now I'm not certain, there may be a bit more delay or there might be some feedback going on there before full power is applied or whatever. Maybe it needs the resistance of being installed. But at one point it did spin the motor around the shaft while I was playing with it so I know it is working.

So far that is my test result with no Bruno box. If, as reported elsewhere the unit gives midrange power under these conditions I believe that will be quite fine with me. But it'll be some time before I have a modified unit ready to install.

For any of you not intimately familiar with fabbing and prototyping though, I very much recommend getting a unit from Mikey. He's got all this worked out and can sell you a unit ready to bolt in at a reasonable cost. Easy R&R in half a day, Bruno or no Bruno. (I put the potentiometer on the Roadmaster through the top of the left cowl half and it's quite a good place for it.)

For those of you who want to source your own unit, I found the pick-n-pull I go to doesn't know what this is yet. I was able to buy the gearbox as a "steering column" for $50 minus steering wheel and switches (sourced from a car with blown airbags so I didn't feel bad about destroying the parts to remove them), the control box they want another $15 for. But that may not last. Once they figure it out I could see the cost doubling. I just got lucky.

Now about removal: I recommend you not cut the wires to the motor. There is no good reason to do so. You will have to tear the top off the dashboard to get the module out in any case, might as well do that first and just unplug the motor. The module is attached with a sheet metal bracket, that is easily broken loose from the box by flexing the spot welds until they break, after you have it out. You can get about a foot of wire with the power connector and about 6" with the control plug without stripping out the wiring harness. When you wire it in the heavy leads go directly to the battery (or starter) and the small control wire goes to the ignition switch.

Jim

QuoteFor any of you not intimately familiar with fabbing and prototyping though, I very much recommend getting a unit from Mikey. He's got all this worked out and can sell you a unit ready to bolt in at a reasonable cost.

FYI: The "Mikey" that Jim B. is referring to is Mike Moor (Capt'n Moorgone).

Another reason...
I finally had time to look at the EPS unit out of the Toyota Corolla and make some closer comparisons. It turns out to be unsuitable for the MGB. The reason is that the motor is positioned on the wrong side. We have room for it to be on the left of the column which is where the ones Mike builds are positioned. The Corolla has the motor on the right side. There just isn't enough room for it to go there. Too bad, the smaller size could have been an advantage.

Jim

I'll take a look at the TR7 and see if there is room there.  I'll also look at the TR4A.

Hey Guys, Page 5 and 6 on this thread, Robert has his on the right side. Chris Gill is doing his now with the Corolla unit.

That's interesting, I thought things were pretty crowded on that side what with the defroster duct and the vent control.

Jim

Has anyone used this control?   https://www.ebay.com/itm/Automatic-Saturn-Vue-Ion-Equinox-Controller-Kit-Electronic-Power-Steering/142463173598?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649  Made by the Bruno fellow.  It works by sensing input torque vs steering resistance.

Not that I am aware of.  That is the new & improved model.  If it works well,  it would be a nice upgrade!

I have completed the fabrication work on the '09 Corolla unit and will attempt the install next week. There was a lot of lathe work involved and motor position will be to the left and up high if I get it to work. Much more involved than Mike's adaptation of the Versa unit, I will go on record as saying that the best approach is to pay Mike to do the adapting and then just swap steering columns and hook up the power. You should be able to do that in an afternoon.

That new Bruno module looks interesting. Wonder if it will work on the Versa? Mike's conversion comes with the knob type Bruno module, I don't know if he's looked at these yet.

Jim

I am glad to see this post coming alive again.  I am in the last throws of my BV8 conversion and wish to add power steering but do not want to lose the feel of the stock steering at speed.  I have always liked the increased castor of the B steering (except while parking and during slow speed maneuvers).  I am hoping to get the both of best worlds.  I have not settled on a EPAS unit but because of the new Bruno automatic unit I am leaning toward the Saturn Vue unit.  
To that end I have written to Bruno and received a response.  Original message and response are below:

Message:I have a 1979 mgb which has a lot of castor and drives down the highway with little steering input even in cross winds. At what speed does this unit essentially shut off with no assist? Some of the description tells of a knob, yet I do not see this in the auction listing pictures and I assume that this is a reference to the manually adjustable unit that you sell. Am I correct?
Response: If your MGB has an unprecise steering on the highway I recommend you to buy the manual controller kit which will allow you to adjust the steering assistance with the knob.
If your MGB has a precise steering and you use your car for normal road use (not rally / races) I recommend you this automatic controller kit.
You can check our both controller kits on our Ebay shop.
Bruno's response was quick if not exact---I think he is saying that it is up to me.  Maybe I will give it a shot????
In conclusion for now, I have the following questions:
Can anyone tell me the shaft size and spline count of the Saturn Vue unit both on the input and output ends?
Mike Moore indicated in previous reports that he would like more castor but he has a Lathrop front end--Can anyone comment on the Saturn Vue unit and the alleged lack of ability to return to center??
Thank you all.
Johanski

All I have for reference at this time is the MG-Roadmaster which we converted using Mikes column with the Venza gearbox (I think but I could be wrong) and the Bruno knob controller.It has very good feel and transforms the car. Return to center is not as brisk as without it because the gearbox does have some drag. I think they all will, as you have to spin the assist motor through a worm and pinion gearset which I suspect has around a 5:1 ratio. So it cuts down on the suspension's ability to smartly whip the steering wheel back to center. This will also be affected by the width of tires that you use as a wider tire creates more jacking action and will require more steering effort, therefore will return to center more forcibly. But it's a good sort of compromise to make. I wouldn't say the EPS has no return to center, just not as much as you are accustomed to in the car.

Jim

My car goes under the knife tomorrow, wish me luck.

Jim

What are you cutting?

There is a brace behind the dashboard that is welded to the square tube that runs across the cowl area and bolted into the shelf from the bottom and stabilizes the original steering column. For the EPS that brace has to come out as it is in the way of the gearbox and motor.

On the Roadmaster I was able to leave a small bit of it in place, which also supports the odometer reset cable. On my car the odometer reset is a push button on the face of the instrument so I was able to get rid of that knob and cable, and I will be making a bracket that bolts into the shelf to support the EPS. Kinda hard to visualize without looking at it.

At least, I think it is welded. I found one on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MGB-MGBGT-Steering-Column-Support-/222961363947

and it looks like that one was bolted in. So it'll be a journey of discovery.

Jim

They are definitely bolted in Jim.  I've had mine out before.

Thanks Rob, good to know. It'll be much easier to trim if I can pull it out.

Jim

Hi guys,

I just finished installing a 2010 Toyota Corolla EPS. I had the Saturn Vue EPS in the car but hated the lack of self centering, plus I had an electrical issue associated with remotely locating the EPS unit.

When I power up the EPS, it turns the steering column continuously to the left (it doesn't stop). The wiring is super simple (12V ignition on, power from battery, ground), so I am at a bit of a loss. Any ideas what it might be?

I may try to track down a spare EPS ECU to see if it's the module.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Chris

Chris, I may have the exact same unit, 2009 Corolla. I powered it up on the bench and it worked as it should. Did you have the feedback sensor out of it? I imagine if you removed the 3 bolt flange for machining you had to. The plastic block has a nub that sticks out, should prevent installing it backwards. I'd check that first.

Jim

Can you post a photo of your install?

Thanks Jim. I will check that out.

I'll take a photo when I get the column back in the car.

Here is the bracket that needs to be modified for the EPS. I made those cuts to remove it from around a speaker wire that was threaded through the big hole. About 6 bolts holding it in, not easy but if you remove the speedo and defrost hose there is room.

IMG_0011.JPG

Here it is after modifications. This gives room for the EPS gearbox to tuck up into place. If you are concerned about loss of strength you can add a bracket to the rear of the EPS to mate up to the shelf legs, that is what I'll be doing as I used the Toyota intermediate shaft.

IMG_0012.JPG

This is the same mod needed with the complete EPS unit that Mike sells, but with careful trimming you can keep the section front-to-rear that supports the speedo reset knob. That's what we did on the Roadmaster. You can trim closer of course.

Jim

Jim, are you referring to the sensor ring that goes around the shaft? If yes, it is in correctly based on photos I found online.

It's sounding like I might need to do a torque sensor zero point calibration. But you need a Toyota handheld tester for that and it needs to be plugged into an actual Toyota, not just a Toyota EPS ECU!

AAARRGH.

That is the sensor.

I'm not sure what you have going on with a tester. On mine I just got the gearbox and module out of the same car, didn't cut any wires between the motor and module so that all plugged back in the same way it came apart. That left me with the two heavy power leads of which the blue was hot, plus a very small blue wire that hooks to the ignition power, and the twisted pair which I didn't hook to anything. I think that gets a signal from the PCM to control assist level based on speed.

It worked on the bench when I tested it. I did not retest after removing and reinstalling the sensor ring you mentioned. That should happen today maybe. I will try to get a photo of it for you. I do remember it could not be bolted in backwards unless that small nub on one side was trimmed off.

So if all that is right and it drives in one direction I'd guess either something is damaged or out of calibration. You might try shifting the sensor ring around to see if its position makes a difference. I suspect that could be something that is tuned out with the calibration but there is a little bit of slop in the mounting position and it could be critical. Worth a try. A mechanical adjustment would be easier than all that messing around with calibration equipment.

Jim

So here is the sensor Chris, check to see if it isn't the same one you have and oriented in the same direction.

IMG_0014.JPG

I think I may have to do the same thing if the adjustment is that critical, I should know more later today, I'm hooking up the wires now. If so, my plan is to disconnect the intermediate shaft so there is no stop, loosen the screws, and see if I can shift the sensor and stop the rotation then cinch it down.

This is all purely theoretical of course. I may not have to do anything, and it may not help you at all. But other than swapping it all out for one that has tested good on the bench it's all I can think of to do. Even then if disassembly and reassembly throws it out of calibration... well that could be a real problem since you just about have to remove the input tube and turn it to match the upper column tube. At least that's the easiest way, no doubt there is another solution.

But for all of you out there watching, do yourself a favor and call Mike. You'll be about a day changing over. I don't think I'd be willing to go through all of this for somebody else's car and I'm not sure I'd do it again on my own. For sure it'd cost quite a bit more than Mike is asking.

Jim

Thanks Jim,

It's not out of the same car so it could be a calibration issue. Jim N wonders if I assembled the two pieces 180 degrees in the wrong direction. Now to try to find time to get to the shop and bench test it!

I'm also grabbing an entire system from another corolla to try it.

If the module and gearbox are out of different cars I'd suspect that as the problem. These things might be a bit sensitive about centering, and the parts may have to be a matched set. Since you're getting spare parts, hopefully that is the only issue and the matched parts will cure it.

Jim

OK, good news Chris (at least I think so). I wired up power and jumpered the small blue wire to +, relays clicked on in the module and the steering wheel sat dead still. I moved it and turned the wheels, maybe a little stiffer than I'd wish for but the wheels are off the ground so I won't get a full test until later. Anyway this does go to the issue you are fighting. My best guess is a module mismatch. Might even be possible the feedback wires are switched in some applications.

Good Luck!

Jim

Thanks Jim.

I'm hoping I can use the casing I have now (it's been modified to fit the column) but switch out the sensor ring and EPS from the new system I'm getting tomorrow. That should work right?

Seems to me like it should. You definitely have something amiss with that system you have and it does sound like a backwards sensor but that could only happen if that nub was trimmed off or the wires are reversed. You'll have enough parts to fix it, even if all you use off the old one is the column flange.

So, road test report then. Got everything buttoned up and went for  a test drive. First off, it takes 3-4 seconds to initialize once the key is on, so give it time. Maybe start the car before doing up your seat belt. Next, the assist with no input signal is quite acceptable and very nice to have. Thirdly, the return to center is there, but nowhere near as snappy as with manual steering. Not even close. In fact you will probably sometimes find yourself helping it, especially if you have anywhere near stock width and offset on your tires. Mine are not and it does come back to center, but the suspension has to back-drive the assist motor through the gearbox. I find it quite acceptable but that is my personal impression.

Tomorrow I plan to do back-to-back comparisons between this and the system in the MG-Roadmaster. Just my impressions, I'm not doing any measurement or extensive testing. I just want a feel of how they compare, since both cars are currently here.

Jim

The sensor isn't in backwards. I think the issue is with a miss-matched ECU/EPS. Since I don't have the OBD connector plug, I can't recalibrate the ECU.

The things you learn in hindsight....

I'm grabbing the OBD connector with the new EPS/ECU tomorrow so hopefully that will solve my issues.

My short drive with the system already confirmed that the Toyota EPS is superior to the Saturn Vue (self centering is awesome) but it would be nice to be able to set the level of assist.

Chris

I did the comparison test drives this morning. First, I do not know what gearbox Mike uses. It may be the Toyota Yaris, I think that is the most likely. Maybe Carl knows.

So first off, the turn-on, turn-off comparison was a little odd. Mike's unit came on in a little over 1 second and stayed on after key-off for about 3-1/2 seconds. That's what I would expect of normal operation. The Corolla unit took over 3 seconds to come on and powered off in less than a second. To me this suggests an RC circuit with a failing capacitor in the module I have. I will have to watch for a gradually increasing turn-on delay. Chris, please let me know what yours does if you will.

In terms of power they were very similar with the Bruno knob on Mike's unit set to about half scale, and that is where I have been driving it. In terms of self centering, also very similar. At anything over 1/8 turn they do have a reasonable level of return. Below that not very much at all.

Driving feel was very similar as well.

Jim

Mike used a Chevy Equinox unit on his B.  Not sure what he sent for the RM.  Maybe the same?

I'm pretty sure it is the same one he used for his own car. If Bruno sells a box for the Equinox that's probably it.

Jim

I have found out from other web postings that the new Bruno automatic control is not really automatic.  It just emulates settings.  For me that makes the Yaris column and ECU w/o ABS a better alternative as it controls input via a speed signal, from a hall effect source and not the CanBus.  Others using it on various Fords have found this to work and with good self centering.   If I was to use the Saturn/Equinox unit I would just use the regular Bruno knob.  
This feedback on self centering is so subjective.   I drive two different cars with EPS and they both self center but not anything like the MGB stock steering.  Maybe all of these different approaches are ok.
I will probably try the Yaris setup.

I think I found my issue after a whole bunch of testing with both the new and modified column.

It's the black torque sensor piece that mounts directly on the column. The one in my modified column appears to be bad - it continuously turns to the left or right depending on which way I have the sensor mounted in the housing). Both torque sensors (new and old) work as they should when I test them in my new EPS.

So the question is, how do I remove this piece and replace it with the one from my new EPS without damaging the thing? I have to do this because the column on my current EPS has the correct splines welded to it to slide into my modified upper MG column (as you can see in the photo.
IMG_7057.JPG

Simplest thing to do Chris, since that one is bad, would be to see if you can budge it with a couple prybars. Doesn't matter if you break it, and in fact if the prybars don't work a hammer should. Then based on what you find there you can figure out how to remove the good one.

But here's the thing. There has to be a limited compliance coupling of some kind built into it, along with a strain gage. You may destroy the gage but you don't necessarily want to destroy the coupling. So you might have to chip away at it slowly to get to the inside. I'm just guessing the reason you don't want to tear it up is because of the tig weld. I kept the spline instead and didn't have that issue. Could be the heat destroyed it.

But the bottom line is that it had to go together somehow so you would think it could be disassembled... and it's already bad.

Good luck with it, I was wondering about that myself and didn't see any obvious way to do it.

The good news is that there is a workaround, the bad news is that it doesn't involve your nice tig weld.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I guess that's the approach I'll have to take. Ugh.

Yeah I sympathize. Might want to concentrate on those two metal rings and try to break out the plastic between them. It could be phenolic in which case it should break out easily.

It is possible they assembled the pieces and then injection molded it either with phenolic (heat-set resin) or a heat melt resin. In either case disassembly probably means some degree of destruction. Or if very lucky it just might press apart.

Jim

Here are some other things I have found out through web research:
The Toyota Yaris units are fragile and subject to damage to the torque sensor.  Additionally the ECU and steering column should be matched and if not may require recalibrating which cannot be done without a diagnostic plug.  Recalibration of the Saturn unit is done with pot inside of the ECU.  Advantage here is Saturn (aka Equinox).  The Prius unit operates in fail safe without the need for a Bruno controller but may be too much assist.  The amount of assist needed is subjective which gives those units that need a Bruno controller an advantage.   The ability to return to center is more related to the castor angle than the steering unit.  Most have found that 5 degrees is needed for good return to center and the stock MGB has about 6 degrees so should be ok no matter what unit is used.   The Saturn unit is the most used and readily available along with the matching ECU.  Most of the Mustang and British car guys use the Saturn unit.  The Bruno automatic controller while not being speed sensitive is torque feed back sensitive which may be just as good as a speed controlled unit as the Yaris.  
So now I am leaning to the Saturn unit.  Off to the pick and pull to get one for testing.

Mike's conversion of the Saturn unit is relatively straightforward. In general I would recommend that unit over the Corolla even though it is larger, because the conversion is simpler. Therefore whether you do it yourself or buy one from Mike already set up, the cost in time/money is less. The Corolla does make a neater installation as it can tuck completely up behind the dash.

The Prius unit is similar to the Corolla. Limp mode is very close to the Saturn at half scale on the Bruno knob, quite acceptable. Return to center is near identical as far as I can tell.

Jim

That's funny, return to centre on my Corolla EPS was much better than the Saturn unit I had.

Well, my car and the Roadmaster are not set up identically in the front ends so your back-to-back testing should be the more accurate comparison.

Jim

TO Chris:   So did you get your problems sorted out?  You comment that the Toyota unit was better than the Saturn for return to center, so I presume that your Toyota unit is working fine now?   Please comment.
I have a Yaris unit and a Saturn unit from the pic n pull.  I am awaiting some parts in order to do a test.

I have just received the Bruno Automatic control and bench tested it on the Saturn Vue steering column that I got from the Pic and Pull.  It seems to work well and does vary the output as the amount of resistance is increased.  Of course this test is subjective and done on a bench with two vise grip pliers.  What happens once in the car will be the real test, but that will not happen for me for a couple of months.  
The Yaris unit that I got does not seem to work--I think that the torque sensor is damaged.  The car that donated the unit was hit on the front end.  As I said before, the Yaris unit may be the most fragile.  
Next task is to build the column and install it in the car, and then do some road testing.   I will report back on this when complete.
In the interim, any feedback from others is welcome.
I hope to see some EPAS units at this year's get together in Ohio.

Should be several there. Undoubtedly Mike's car, my car, the Roadmaster, I'm pretty sure others will be there also.

One of the biggest challenges is retaining the collapsible column feature and there are several ways to do that. Time will tell what works the best.

Jim

Well a year has almost gone by and there has been no postings on the EPAS subject.  Carl Floyd PM'd me and asked if I had gotten any further along--I have not as I am not yet convinced (after driving an MGB with power steering) that it is really needed.  I do think that there is a lack of centering with the Saturn conversions,  but not unmanageable.   I definetly like the feedback on a non PS car on the highway.  
I still think that the best solution is the Yaris unit with a VSS input.   This unit from non ABS cars is the only unit I know of with the ability to vary the sensitivity vs the speed of the car.  As I said earlier, the Yaris seems fragile as the unit I got from the Pic and Pull did not work, the car having suffered front end damage.   I still would like to try a Yaris unit and use a vss from a GPS speedo.  This if works would be the best with real speed sensitive variance and according to those who use Yaris (also Prius, Nissan, and other Japanese based systems) with the ability to give steering feedback and centering at all speeds.  So I may just opt to obtain another Yaris unit and try it.
Any thoughts????

I like the Toyota, I think I got more column collapse but it requires machining. Limp mode is 50% which is about right for the B with wider tires. However, without a VSS signal it takes 3 seconds to initialize. Pros and cons. With stock weight and tires is it worth it? Maybe not.



Jim

Still thinking about EPAS.   Any one with experience on this?:  http://www.dcemotorsport.com/Home/EPAS#Microsteer

Here is something that is also interesting:  http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic112422-2.aspx

Thanks for that link. They seem to have the Yaris unit sorted out, and even have the connector body and pin numbers and sources. Not so much on the Prius unit. So as it stands now, if you are willing and able to provide a VSS signal of some sort it looks like the Yaris will do speed sensitive steering, which is a great benefit with heavier cars. It appears that MGB owners using the Bruno box are mostly setting it somewhere midrange and leaving it there. My experience with the Prius unit is that the midrange default (43mph) works well with wide tires and a bit of extra vehicle weight. YMMV.

Jim

Quoteas I am not yet convinced (after driving an MGB with power steering) that it is really needed.

In most cases, of course not, James.  It can make all the difference for some.

Carl,  I agree and think that having the assist at lower speeds and the automatic speed sensitive control to reduce or cancel the assist at higher speeds is the ideal solution.  This is what the current technology in the newest cars does.  The requirement with the Saturn based systems to adjust (via the Bruno controller) does this but it is not automatic.  The Yaris based system does this automatically but requires a pulse generator to "wake" the system up upon starting.  The new DCE system seems to do this.  All comments are welcome.  Anyone out there have experience with the DCE Microsteer system?

Be aware, the EPS will change the steering characteristics of the car whether it is on or off. What you have is a fairly large ring gear being driven by a worm gear on the assist motor. The worm and ring creates resistance. When unpowered that adds to the heavieness of the stock steering, and it reduces the snappy return-to-center that the OEM arrangement creates whether powered or not. Any reduction in camber or caster (particularly caster) will also reduce that effect, whereas wider tires will add to it.

So, adding EPS will reduce steering effort but also reduce return-to-center (which is a bit excessive in the stock MGB anyway). But without power it makes the steering a good bit heavier, as well as the reduction in return-to-center.

Jim

Jim,  Well said and accurate!

I found this interesting:

The Miata has Mazda's second implementation of rack-mounted electric power steering

The first application was in the RX-8, but while most modern Mazdas use electric power steering, it's really tricky to fit rack-mounted systems in front-wheel-drive cars. In the 2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata, a rack-mount assist system allowed engineers to improve steering feedback (other cars have the assist system in the column, which is less precise). Mazda did experiment with unassisted steering for the new Miata, but officials say the effort at parking speeds would have been too high.

Carl,  Interesting comment.   I have two modern cars--the older is a 2018 Chrysler 300 AWD with electric power steering on the rack as the Miata.  The steering feel is good with a dampened return to center and almost no caster feel in the straight ahead position.  This gives the car a light feel on the highway but the car does not wander.   I suspect this feel is programed in.  The second car is a slightly newer 2018 Ford Fusion Hybrid.  This car has the has the electric power steering on the column and is virtually the same feel as the Chrysler.  Again I suspect that is the programming.  Both systems are speed sensitive.  
This brings me to my present decision.   I have decided to through some bucks at this and have purchased a DCE Microsteer system from Flaming River.  The unit is in my hands and I plan this week to build some column and bracketry parts.   I also hope to do some bench testing.  This system goes both ways with a control much like the Bruno controller and an option for a pulse width speed input.  I will be using the input from my GPS speedometer at 8000 pulses per mile.  Unfortunately road testing will not be done until sometime this fall, when the progress of my V8 conversion is back on all fours.  I will post information as available.  As always comments are welcome.
BTW, I know that I had said that I did not think the EPAS was all that necessary, but it sure would be nice to have the low speed assist with the highway feel of the unassited MGB.  Of course the highway experience will never be as "strong" as a non assisted MGB but if it is as good as either of my two modern cars, I will be quite pleased.
Comments and observations are always welcome.

Look forward to your hands on observations, James.

IMG_0343-1.JPG
Over 4 years and 30.000 miles with the Vue power steering unit flipped upside down with no issues.

I just repeated reading of the recent posts.  I was looking to see what the Roadmaster has in it for Power Steering.  Did Jim Blackwell install a EPAS in the Roadmaster or was that in his own car?   Will the Roadmaster be at the V8 GT in Townsend this year?  Thanks to all.

Since James joined us at the GT in Townsend, his questions were answered.  For those that were not, yes, the MG Roadmaster now has EPS (EPS column built by Mike Moor & installed by Jim Blackwood).  And, no the MG Roadmaster was not there.

Jim has also installed EPS in his own MGB.

New member here today. I posted my implementation of a Prius EPS (EPAS) unit in my '69 MG project on The MG Experience.  Carl Floyd suggested that I join this site and share it here.

The unit I chose was from a 2009 Toyota Prius. I needed to mate the MG steering column to the Prius. At the front end, I cut off the Prius's outer column and trimmed the inner tube extension to length. I removed the key steering lock sleeve and cut the MG inner to the required length. The 2 fit together well. I plug welded them in 2 places and then ran a bead around the joint for a belts an suspenders repair.

The lower section required a purchased Borgeson adapter that fit rather well. Then the sliding shaft was disassembled cut and welded together to get the required OAL as the MG OEM column. I did lose the collapsible feature in this implementation. I could have kept that function but would only have had an inch or two of collapse. I decided to make it simpler and ended up with a solid shaft.

The MG steering mount bracket needed to be relieved to make room for the drive assembly. That made it a bit flimsy. I added some reinforcement that cleared the drive. I addition I used that reinforcement to become the torque link for the motor. Also changed was the MG outer column mounting tabs.

The Prius unit (and many other Japanese cars) uses a limp-home mode if it's control box cannot communicate via the CAN link. The controller unit is required. The only external wiring necessary are Battery, Ground and ignition on.

To mount the controller, I ground off the original mounting tabs from the EPS control unit. The OEM mount fit 3 different crazy body locations that simply do not exist in the MGB. I was concerned that I may destroy the electronics internally with all the heat and electrical noise of the cutoff wheel on my angle grinder. I figured if it was designed properly, as I expect all major auto manufacturers do, it should be well protected from spurious noise on any unused inputs, so I moved forward with that plan. I fabricated an aluminum case to enclose the box and mount it to the vertical firewall virtually right next to the motor of the EPS unit. Added 4 rivet nuts to the firewall. The box now screws to the firewall with four 10-32 screws.

I tested the system in situ. Lo and behold, it still works as it should. No damage was done during my br@cketectomy procedure.

I won't know for a few years yet how this will work out. I am doing the required mods while I finish up attacking the body repairs and V6/auto installation etc.

I hope this info helps others.
EPSComplete.jpg
EPSsupport2.jpg
epsinstalled4.jpg
epsinstalled3.jpg

The collapsible column feature should be retained if possible, MGs have had a collapsible column since the Mark-II I believe.

Jim

I agree with you Jim. It should be kept, even if greatly reduced. The drive assembly did take up a lot of the space available for the collapse feature. Like I stated, I could have kept maybe 2 inches of collapse(ability?) had I had enough forward vision to do my cuts accordingly. I made a judgement call that I am OK with. I do not recommend others follow.

OK here's a puzzle for you guys. On the last part of the trip back from BritishV8 in my '71 MGB roadster (300 Buick powered and equipped with a Prius/Corolla EPS) I noticed that the steering does not self center as it should. (I can't say how long it has been that way) I'm not saying it doesn't track down the center of the road if you take your hand off the wheel, what I'm saying is that if you take your hand off the wheel coming out of a moderately sharp curve it wants to keep turning instead of straightening out. It also doesn't find center while driving straight, tending to result in a zig-zag path. Now this is quite a surprise in an MGB which is justly famous for snapping back to center especially with wider tires, due to the largish caster angle of about 5 degrees, which causes noticeable suspension jacking when the wheels are turned sharply, and which if you take your hands off the wheel in a drift will very energetically whip back to center and I had the rug burn on my wrist to prove it.

For purposes of comparison I presently have the MGB-Roadmaster here in driveable condition, which is fitted with Mike Moor's EPS conversion that uses the Versa unit. By contrast, it isn't as snappy as the stock MGB but it does return to center nicely.

So far the web searches I've seen indicate that the Versa has more of an issue with return-to-center than the Prius unit does but this sure does not square with my current experience. I put the car up on the lift, checking for anything that might account for this and have yet to find anything. It's the same for both directions. The steering components all seem tight and functioning properly. There doesn't seem to be any binding. With the key off I can grab the tire or brake rotor and push the steering from lock to lock with about the usual resistance, probably just a bit more due to the EPS gearbox.

Anyone have any idea what else I could look at here? I'm sorta drawing a blank. About the only thing I can point to might be wheel offset.

Jim

Wheel offset?  Has that changed much since you installed the EPS?

I have found many instances of complaints very similar to yours on the Toyota/Yaris/Prius EPS.  Lots steering & alignments checks a dealers that say everything is fine & normal.  Not much resolution.
 
Except for this one:

"Well I got my steering problem sorted out. The first thing I did was to get the odd thread tire on the front changed so that the tyres had the same profile, I then got the four wheels laser tracked and the report showed that the toe in was out. The result of all this was that the steering was marginally better but not right. My mechanic mate then sourced a second hand steering motor and ECU, he fitted the steering motor at first and recalibrated the steering etc and this also improved the steering vastly but it still wasn't right. He then fitted the ECU and on reclibrating etc solved the problem entirely."

Another observation:

"I think this is simply the difference between Toyota and VW's power steering calibrations that you're seeing - VW's electric power steering systems have a very aggressive return to center (to the point that they'll hold what they think center is, even with things like crowned roads and IIRC even crosswinds), where Toyota's systems tend to be a little "sticky" near center to try to get a similar effect - it'll stay where you put it if you're near the center."

Another great link I ran across with pics comparing Corolla, Prius, Yaris, Saturn Vue, Nissan Cube & Versa, & Kia Soul EPS.

Prius ECU may work on Saturn Vue (same torque sensor) for fail safe use?

https://www.therangerstation.com/tech/toyota-electric-power-steering-eps-conversion/

Are you saying that the VW unit is the same as the Prius except for the programming?

I do not care for that 'sticky' characteristic at all. Probably should look at what the Mazdas are using.

After I re-seal the valve covers on the Roadmaster tomorrow I want to do a back-to-back comparison, that might be helpful. As for the wheel offset, yes I have been playing with that a bit and I also should be able to swap the tires front to rear and see what the effect is. One set has a 24mm offset and I believe the other is 10mm so that should be enough to make a difference. The 10's would be the ones I have on the front now. Apparently the offset of the Jag rims on the RM (Hollander 59689) is 33mm.

Jim

No.  The article in the link shows a pic saying the the torque sensor from Prius is the same as a Saturn Vue.  So, a Prius ECU could be used in fail safe mode on a Saturn Vue EPS.  Lots of info in that link.

My old OEM 5" wide Rostyles have a 24mm offset, My 6" ARE wheels have a 13mm offset. My tires are not nearly as wide as yours, though. The wide tires may be accentuating a minor issue?

I'll get it back on the lift this afternoon, I have an infrequent ugly klunking at the right front that I have to find. (Nothing seems loose so some dissassembly is in order. Bearings maybe.) I might try swapping the tires around to see what that does. Assuming the klunk isn't causing it somehow.

Jim

Well that wasn't it. Swapped tires, steering is still sticky in the middle. I don't much care for it.

(Tightened the shock base bolts, one was moving just a smidge)

Drove the RM again, it's got a little of that sticky too but not as bad. Reports are good on the Mazda 3 steering, maybe we should be taking a look at that one. I think a junkyard trip may be in my future.

Jim

Jim, 2014 and newer Mazda 3 had electric power steering.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/2014-mazda-3-gets-electric-power-steering/

6.5 degrees of caster in the MX3. That's even more than the 5 degrees in the MGB. Then they used that to provide the centering. I think we may be onto something here.

Jim

I have seen the MGB listed as 7 degrees, as well as 5 degrees.  I would love to see someone's alignment printout.

'Engineers behind the new 2014 Mazda 3 have tuned the steering setup of the third-generation 3 to the point that it mimics the best parts of a manual steering system for better response and feedback."

Y'all may convert me yet.

Frontline & Moss Motors both say that the MGB was designed with 6.5 degrees of trailing castor.   I have also seen 7 degrees mentioned elsewhere.  Either is perfectly fine with me.

Should work well with the MX3 EPS. Local Pick-n-pull has nothing newer than 2011 so they are out. Might look around some though. Wider tires will increase the caster effect. Wonder what the MX3 unit does in limp mode?

Jim

"Wider tires will increase the caster effect"

Taller will, but wider?  How so?

Your wide front tires should require less negative camber & a bit more toe-in.

I guess it depends on whether or not they are wider inboard or wider outboard. Inboard wouldn't make any difference but  outboard would increase the jacking effect.

Jim

Which is why a bit more toe-in is needed.

Um... maybe? I've found wider tires don't need as much toe in and wear fast if they do.

Jim

As  much?  I run zero to slightly out.  :)

It's always a balance with toe-in & negative camber. A matter of finding the right combo for one's tires & driving style.

The stock MGB caster angle is about 6.5 degrees. A large caster angle gives a strong self-centering action and causes beneficial camber gain during cornering but also increases the heaviness of the steering. Most modern cars have power steering as standard and as such have large caster angles in the range of 6 to 8 degrees or more.  For years I had a Mercedes 240 diesel and the shop manual specified 8.5 degrees of caster on cars with power steering and about 4 degrees on cars without (only available in Europe). One of the features of the Fast Cars MGB front suspension is a reduced caster angle (nominal 3 degrees, range 2.5 to 5 degrees). This is a main contributor to a lighter steering feel. Mike Moor has a Fast Cars front suspension in his MGB with power steering. I wonder what the caster setting is? I drove his car at the Auburn meet and it had some self-centering action. I would have preferred more centering, but it did work predictably. I have a Hoyle front suspension in my MGB but since it still uses the MGB cross member I am also running caster wedges to reduce the caster to about 3 degrees. I am considering removing the caster wedges and returning to the stock setting. At that point I may seriously consider adding power steering. I also have the Moss fast ratio steering rack which might be beneficial for a more robust self-centering action; (I wonder how that compares to the Fast Cars steering rack?). Still, in looking through this thread I am not sure if some of the centering problems are related to caster settings.

Larry, after 2014 Mazda used EPS in the 3 and 6 models. You might want to have a look at those.

Jim

I am not aware of Mike having increased his castor any.  His was the #1 test prototype, so not sure what his castor angle actually is.

I thought Steve Carrick had the #1 prototype IFS?

Maybe so.

Mike's car is the one that Ted had Bob Senneker test.  Bob drove Mike's car with his OEM crossmember (& bolt-on tube shock conversion - it's sitting in my garage).  Bob told Ted "You're going to improve on this?"  Then, Bob drove it with Ted's IFS & said "You improved it!"

Back when I was considering flared fenders, I asked Ted if he could make it a bit wider for a wider track.  He said he could probably make it up to 2 inches wider without upsetting the geometry.  Not much later, that became an option.

Steve had the first 3-link in an MGB (with Ted's help).  My idea, though.  :)

We're getting off topic for this thread, but when Andrew got his IFS from the Sennekers, they told him they're only going to be doing stock width going forward.  If they stick to that, he got one of the last wider ones.

Bummer.

I could be wrong, but I believe the only difference is the A-arm length.

The Hoyle front suspension in my car is 1 inch wider (each side) than stock. A few years after I bought it, Hoyle announced the availability of the wider suspension and I obtained a set of suspension arms which I have been using ever since. Looking at their current web site, there is no mention of wider arms which means either they do not offer them any more or the wider arms are now standard. The wider suspension allows my wider wheels and tires to clear the through-the-fender exhaust, with the stock width I had to install steering stops in the rack.

New GPS automatic variable speed controller:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/284408686546?hash=item42381427d2:g:GWkAAOSwKJhhYvFk&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAwAPoIzZHBA55Bl%2BkY%2FV45xzfAyXE%2F9Dl2CtUdSli2iCqoTW8oMfwd91anyExfOnC0JGPii8x2BPkyV9IFS%2B%2F0Ybls2KZgvGTcafUdHavEI9NxEIL%2FdxoCGYBORRgeQyrg6IQxnRKNN0rMdCZtc8e%2BXs6ihuAMygMdk%2B6zOJe%2FFmmg5JQPwFZ1OTOm74NESxNpQGvLi8L8F84p%2Bh3Eydu1J9sakF12ev2PVLXMZbxeQq30WTvlIMFUKigytvEw%2BVq0A%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-L8lauyYQ

Nice!
Also that is the Bruno box which Mike Moor uses in his conversions so I'm sure he can get the new version.

Wonder if they have one that works with the Prius EPS?

Jim

They expect to have one for the Prius/Yaris/Aygo box in a few weeks.

Jim

I finally built an EPS system for my car (Toyota based). I have not driven it yet since there seems to be a problem with the compatibility between the ECU and steering motor, but that will be worked out. however, it might be interesting to see my approach. Basically, I avoided any welding on the steering shafts and was able to keep about 2 1/2 inches of collapse distance.
I have more pictures that I can post but am at the limit for now...

Choosing a steering motor:
The most readily available speed varying units are Toyota Prius 2004 – 2007 and Yaris 2006 -2014. The rest of the discussion will be confined to these units. Both have separate ECUs which makes them more compact, and the Yaris has a smaller pinion gear which makes it even more compact. I used a Yaris unit and the following text and pictures are specific to the Yaris, but the general principles apply to the Prius. Yaris steering motors are most often found in Europe (but listed on US eBay). I got one from a Yaris 1.4 diesel from Lithuania. There are many Yaris motors available from the UK, but these motors are arranged in the mirror image from the left had drive units from continental Europe, so do not get one from the UK. Also, the 2012-2014 Yaris unit has the Toyota mounting bracket cast as part of the gearbox, before then the bracket was bolted on. I used the bracket bolt holes to attach my motor plate. For the later unit, the cast bracket would need to be cut off and mounting holes drilled and tapped. If possible, et a unit with its original ECU. There are differences in ECUs and not all are interchangeable. I have a compatibility problem with my ECU and motor that needs to be resolved before my steering will work properly...
Used assist units usually come with the original steering column and sometimes an output shaft extension.  The first step is to remove everything and get down to the base unit. The inner steering column on the Toyota units is (somehow) securely fastened to the gearbox and should be left in place, but eventually cut to the desired length. I put a small set screw in mine to make sure it does not begin to move and so start to loosen.
 
Fitting the upper MGB column:
In addition to the steering, unit a spare MGB steering column and steering column support are nice to have so the originals will still be available as a back-up.  Begin by taking the column and shaft apart (look in an MGB workshop manual – hint, the bearing cup at the bottom of the column is just a press fit and the entire inner shaft except for the upper bearing can be pushed out the bottom of the column once the upper bearing lock ring is removed). The next step is cutting the steering column just in front of the upper mounting hole slots (I used a cut-off disc in an angle grinder). When this is done, the mounting plate becomes held to the column by only two plug welds at the outer end. I added three more plug welds to make sure it will not come loose. Then I took the column to a machine shop and had the first 1 ¾ inches of the column machined out so it would be a press fit on the Toyota column (I shortened the Toyota column to a length of 1 ¾ inches, again with a cut-off disk). I chose this length so the area under the original plug welds would not be disturbed.

Fitting the upper MGB shaft:
The next step was to shorten the Toyota input shaft so only a small part of the splined area remains.  The original MGB steering shaft has a "3/4 inch double D" configuration. The Toyota splined section is almost ¾ in in diameter, and I ground it down to a double D using a bench grinder. Before I did this I bought a Borgson double D coupler, https://www.borgeson.com/Couplers-and-Adapters/3-4DD-X-3-4DD-314949.html, and used it to check how the grinding was coming along. As well getting a tight fit to the coupler, I was careful to keep the double D flats centered on the shaft. I actually practiced on the intact Toyota shaft to get the grinding technique down before I cut the shaft to its final length and made the final double D. I fastened the coupler in place, then took it off and drilled recesses where the setscrews marked the shaft. For the final assembly, I got shorter screws that went in almost flush with the coupler outer surface because of the very limited clearance inside the column.
 
It is important to be able to fasten and unfasten the MGB upper shaft from the double D coupler. To make this possible, I drilled a hole in the column at the exact place where the set screw would be located in the assembled column holding the upper MGB shaft in place. It is then easy to put in or take out the set screws (assuming they are the type with a recessed Allen drive). Of course, the upper MGB shaft must be shortened to length. It is also possible not to use set screws on the MGB shaft portion but there is a slight amount of free lay which might become annoying. As described, the cut MGB shaft extends well beyond the steering lock slot so all functionality is retained.
 
Coupler set screw access
Once the MGB steering column is finally in place, it can be locked in position by drilling and tapping a hole through the MGB column and the Toyota column, and inserting a retaining screw. Do not do this until you are sure what angle you want the motor to be in relation to the column mounting flats (slightly up to the left worked for me).
Note, if the upper column is separated from the motor with the MGB shaft still connected to the Toyota shaft with set screws, the shaft torque sensor section will be torn apart and destroyed.

Modifying the steering column support:
The steering column support must be cut out to clear the motor/gearbox. It will be obvious what to cut once the MGB column with its mounting pads installed on the motor. Try to minimize the metal removal to retain as much strength as possible. I also reinforced some of the cut areas as shown in the picture. Tis support is designed to transfer the rearward force on the steering column in a collision to the firewall, otherwise, the force goes into the flimsy bar that runs behind the dashboard. Cutting open the bottom of the support to fit the motor removes much of the strength. With the smaller Yaris or Prius gearbox it is possible to put a support across the bottom of one side of the bracket as James Johanski showed in the post on his Prius conversion.  
The final modification was welding nuts to the bracket for the bolts holding the gearbox support plate to the bracket.
Lower steering gearbox support:
The gear box support bracket is held to the gearbox with the original Toyota support bracket bolts. It is made from 16-gauge steel sheet, but a heavier gauge would have been better; I did add an additional reinforcing piece to the right side of the plate made from 12 gauge steel. Any flexing in the support bracket will probably lead to uneven steering assistance.
This support serves two functions: 1) it stabilizes the steering column because the lower collapsible column is quite flexible and the three mounting points on the original column provided the necessary stability (but now one is gone); and 2) it resists the turning torque of the EPS unit; the upper column is not intended to resist the steering torque and so it should not be relied on for that.

Lower MGB collapsible column:
The lower collapsible MGB column is cut to length and welded to the gearbox support bracket. To facilitate this, I drilled holes in the bracket that the cut ends of the column structure could fit into before welding. I also ground down the cut ends to make them better suited to going into the drilled holes.
 
MGB lower collapsible shaft modifications:
To prepare the lower shaft, I first cut off the splined end and took it to a machine shop to have it machined out from the shaft tube so it could be inserted again into the hollow lower shaft once the shaft is cut to length. I recommend cutting the shaft so there is just enough of the round section to insert the splined end in. I brazed (silver soldered) the spline plug in place (using two MAPP gas torches capable of heating the shaft to a dull red color) and also added some set screws inserted in drilled and tapped holes, and ground down flush with the outside surface (really not needed but to provide peace of mind).
 
A Double D to Toyota 17 mm, 36 spline shaft coupler is available https://www.unisteer.com/collections/u-joints-couplers-shafts/products/electra-steer-17mm-36-x-3-4dd-steering-coupler to connect the MGB double D shaft to the gear box. The coupler has to be ground down to fit inside the MGB column but it is possible. I also replaced the Allen clamp screw with a button head screw for more clearance, and the mesh can be slightly "expanded" if needed. It is also very important to shorten the coupler behind the splined area so that the clamp bolt can fit in the groove between the two splined sections on the shaft.
 
Shorten coupler to match Toyota u-joint length
The shaft after the splines have the same OD as the splines so the coupler cannot be pushed on beyond the splined area. Compare to the original Toyota U joint if available. Cut the inner and outer MGB shafts so they engage but leave some collapse length (about 2 1/4 inches in my case). It will not be as much collapse length as the MGB had originally because the motor is in the way, but some collapse space is better than none. My setup has about 1.5 inches of overlap in the shafts, reducing this can gain more collapse space.
 
Note: there are recesses on the MGB double D shaft for plastic pieces to take up play between the inner and outer shafts. These are often broken and/or missing. They can be replaced by drilling a small hole in the outer shaft and injecting hot melt glue into the recess while heating the shaft with a heat gun. It is recommended to cut the shafts so the recess closest to the shaft end is inside the outer shaft section holding the relocated MGB splined end.

The original MGB shaft plastic inserts also keep the shaft pieces from sliding except in a crash, and so prevent the spring in the lower bearing cup from pushing the shaft out.

Installation:
First bench test the motor, ECU and controller. The first step is to connect power and make sure the motor does not run. Then turn just the upper shaft and see again that the motor does not run. Finally,  twist the upper and lower shafts in opposite directions with pliers and make sure the motor starts to apply assist in the proper direction in proportion to the force applied. If one or more tests fail, help can be found online or from Buno. (My unit goes to full output at the slightest input force so I need to solve that problem.)
Remove the dashboard and install the column support and the new motor/column assembly. Note that the original MGB steering column can be reinstalled at any time without removing the dash again. Find a place to install the ECU and the control box and connect the power. For this unit all that is needed is a positive wire to the battery (probably off the starter motor), a ground and then a ground and an ignition hot wire to the Buno controller. Maximum current draw is 30 amps, but only when there is steering input. Most of the time the unit draws no power so the standard alternator (or even generator) should be sufficient. There is plenty of room in the car since the unit is so compact.
Note: I built in slots in the mounting holes to allow positioning of the unit in the car. The goal was to allow some "wiggle room" once it was installed to achieve optimum positioning.
uppercolumnoverviewcopy.jpg
lowershaftassemblycopy.jpg
collapselengthcopy.jpg
incarcopy.jpg

Thanks, Larry.  Great writeup!

Every new option gets us closer to the ideal swap, if there could be such a thing. For now, for those with the bucks, Mike Moor's offer is about as good as it gets.

I'd like to see someone take on the MX5 EPS unit and let us know how that performs since they reportedly went to some trouble to retain road feel. What we seem to lose the most is the natural return to center, as most EPS units have enough rotational resistance on the output shaft to pretty much eliminate that. On my Toyota unit I even went so far as to install caster shims to INCREASE the stock caster and still got no really noticeable return to center action.

Even at that I wouldn't go back. Having power steering is great.

Jim

I just got my unit working with a new ECU. I ended up buying another Yaris EPS but this was compete with its original ECU, model 89650-52330. This  worked for both my original, and the new EPS as well as a Prius unit I had. ECUs 89650-DD120 and DD190 did not work. The bad ones activated the motor from only from the torque required to turn the drive gear, using hand pressure. The correct one required resistance applied to the output shaft with pliers. With the bad ECUs, the motor went to full force as soon as the steering wheel was touched. If the wheel was let go of, the steering oscillated back and forth to full lock rather violently. Not good...
The car drives very well. I set the Bruno unit to reduce assist with speed as quickly as possible and the reduction in assist is quite noticeable. My next step is to remove the caster wedges and put the caster back to 6 degrees from 3 degrees. But even with the reduced caster there is a reasonable centering effect.

The Yaris unit is also quite compact and only a small opening will be needed in the under dash cover. I even suspect self centering is better with this than with larger units because the gear reduction is less and so there should be less resistance when the steering is driving the motor.
installedunderdashcopy.jpg

Larry my memory is less than perfect but the unit I used is either a Yaris or Prius, Yaris probably but could be either one. At the time I was under the impression they were both the same. It's pretty small and mounts similarly to yours but I have a short telescoping universal shaft going to a firewall mounted passthrough bearing block. I'm using the stock control box in limp mode which gives about 50% boost and that seems to work rather well. Not sure if it's worth buying the GPS Bruno control. I think that Mike uses the GM unit, I forget which one. Also the wheel offset plays a part, I do have custom hubs so the hub offset could be a little different, I'm not real sure about that. I have drawings that show 4-1/4" from the wheel mounting surface to the back end of the hub. My wheel offset should be somewhere around 15 but I'm not sure where I put the receipt.

With the reverse installed caster wedges there is a *little* self centering maybe? I have plans to switch to sealed timkens in the kingpins if I can ever get a line on the bearings I want to use and that should free things up a bit more. We'll see how it works then.

Jim

The Yaris gear box is considerably smaller than the Prius gear box (I have one of each). See the attached picture of the under-dash cover in place.
coverinplacecopy.jpg

After driving the car more, it feels very natural and I no longer notice the power assist.

The following describes how to calculate the lower shaft lengths in relation to the collapse space available:
The first step is to find the total distance from the inside end of the hollow shaft to the outer end of the Toyota shaft coupling (with the parts laid out in their final positions). Divide the distance by 2 to find the middle. If the lower hollow shaft is cut to that length, and the upper solid shaft is cut to that length plus the length the upper shaft goes into the Toyota coupler, the two shafts will meet in the middle with no overlap. The next step is to decide on what overlap you want, and add that amount to each shaft length (such as one inch to each to get a 1 inch overlap). This will give the maximum possible collapse length. Be sure to shorten the end of the solid shaft so that the lower groove goes into the hollow section but do not worry about the upper groove.

QuoteLarry my memory is less than perfect but the unit I used is either a Yaris or Prius, Yaris probably but could be either one. At the time I was under the impression they were both the same.

Deep back in this thread, Jim, you said that you used a 2009 Corolla EPS unit.

OK then that would be correct. Wonder how it compares to the Yaris in size? It's a good unit and is smaller than the GM version but the lower universal shaft makes it more difficult to mount. OTOH, it makes it less capable of converting itself to a spear in the case of a head-on collision so that's a plus. Maybe not the best choice though.

Jim

Some comparison pics at the link below.

https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/35-electric-power-steering-with-fail-safe-no-ebay-module-and-no-caster-issues.363066/

More installation notes:

The distance from the center of the shaft to the bottom of the gearbox is about 2 inches for the Prius and 1.5 inches for the Yaris. Also, the internal gear in the Prius unit probably has about twice the number of teeth (circumference is proportional to the square of the radius) and so twice the reduction to overcome when driving the gear from the steering shaft.

The ECU for the Yaris/Prius has several different mounting configurations which can be quite awkward. But the sheet metal boxes are only held to the aluminum heat sink plate the computer is attached to by bent tabs, so it is easy to remove the box to alter its attaching points by welding or installing bolts as studs without damaging the electronics. I used a DD190 box with my 52330 computer after cutting off one mounting stud/bracket. The ECU now fits perfectly on the back of the console above the radio and the motor wires easily reach it (and plug right in). The ECU retaining stud also serves as a ground for the ECU wiring.

I liked keeping the original MGB spring loaded lower bearing. It seemed like a very ingenious design in that it can compensate for some steering shaft misalignment, at least compared to a rigid bearing. But with careful set-up, a rigid bearing is also fine as it has worked for Jim and others.

Hint: it is much easier to install (and remove) the stock MGB dashboard if oversize nuts are put over the mounting studs to act as spacers for the retaining nuts. There is much less turning to get the nuts tight and a 7/16 socket with a ¼ inch drive ratchet fits on most of the studs.

I will look for the Yaris gearbox next time I go to the pick-n-pull. Probably be a few years before the Miata ND begins to show up there. Hopefully there will be at least a little commonality between that and the Corolla box in terms of mounting and shaft connections. I did not alter the Corolla box in any way IIRC.

Carl, thanks for that link, it was a good one.

Jim

Comparison of Prius and Yaris steering motors:

The Prius gear is about 3 15/16 inch in diameter while the Yaris gear is about 3 1/16 inchers in diameter. However, both have 44 teeth, the pitch is just finer on the Yaris.

The output shaft diameters and splines are identical, but the input shafts, while similar, differ in that the Prius has coarser splines. The column stub outside diameters on the input side are identical so a modified MGB column will fit either one.

The Prius motor housing is about 5/8 inch longer and about 1/8 inch larger in diameter than the Yaris motor housing.

Good info Larry.
Wonder if the Prius and Corolla are the same.

Will you be going to Townsend? Maybe we could swap test drives.

Jim

Hi Jim;

I am not sure if I will be going, but it would be great to compare cars if I do go.

Larry

Steering feel is personal, and one system will not satisfy everyone. But after getting experience driving the car, I found an improvement in most conditions, not just parking. Especially impressive is the improvement in sharp, medium speed corners such as turning on to a side road or going through tight S turns (very common in the Midwest since secondary roads closely follow farm boundaries) at speeds of 30 to 45 mph. With unassisted steering, the steering becomes very heavy and makes the car feel ponderous. With power assist the car feels like the lightweight performance car it actually is. This alone justifies the EPS in my opinion. Of course, this assumes spirited driving; much faster than I would drive with my dog in the car, but not up to a competition level.

At highway speeds I sometimes get a periodic shimmy between 65 and 80 mph caused by slight tire imbalance. I always get the tires road force balanced, but with wear, rebalancing is sometimes needed due to an imbalance as small as ¼ oz. Currently, the shimmy is starting to return, but it has been completely damped out by the slight drag of the steering motor. The reduced assist at highway speeds is also much appreciated as the car feels just as stable as always. This was a concern because I am using the Moss quick ratio steering rack.

While the constant assist level of the fail-safe mode of the Prius/Yaris steering may be satisfactory for many people (all reviews I have read are positive), the speed sensitive feature is worth experimenting with. Especially since the Bruno box only costs about $100 including shipping (from Portugal) and can be installed in a few minutes.
pear.jpg

"I am not sure if I will be going, but it would be great to compare cars if I do go."

What the heck were y'all doing in Monticello?!  I am sure there were, at least a half a dozen conversion with EPS in attendance.  We should have set up a parking lot demo somewhere.


Alan Hendrix of British Wire Wheel in Greensboro, NC maintains that much of the steering wheel shimmy on our LBCs is caused by out of round tires.  He specializes in truing wire wheels & shaves tires every day.

Yes, a parking lot demo,aka autocross, would have been informative.

I did drive some cars with EPS but I was gentle with them since they were not my car. However, a parking lot demo session is much better controlled than driving fast on public roads, and I agree it would be an excellent thing to do. If I had known about the true advantages of an EPS system I would have installed one much earlier.

What is your opinion of the reduced road feel, Larry?

The big improvement with electric power steering ,along with what everyone has mentioned , is the total lack of vibration and harsh steering wheel movement while traveling. I'm much less tired after long trips, similar to current automobiles. This is welcome the older you get.

I have fabricated and installed EPS on my MGB , my MGA and my Fiero and am very pleased with each installation. Thanks to Mike Moor for starting this improvement.

I just removed the caster wedges from the front crossmember and so the caster is back to 6 degrees. The improvement is noticeable in that the steering feels more precise now, with some more feedback. The Moss quick ratio rack I have seems ideal for use with this set up.

That also gives you back your camber gain that you lost.

Of course it should be kept in mind that Larry is running the Hoyle front suspension. Whether his results will cross to a stock king pin suspension or not is an open question.

Also, shameless plug here for Mike Moor's EPS conversion, as it remains the easiest way to do this and works very well.

Jim

Hoyle still uses kingpins.  Not that that matters.  Negative camber gain is the direct result of the amount of positive caster when the suspension is compressed.

Carl is correct; one of my motives to install the power steering was to be able to take advantage of the camber gain with the stock caster angle. The rear suspension grips so well there was always some understeer with the caster wedges, this is now gone as I hoped it would be. I did experiment with negative camber on the front suspension but that has too many compromises.

I also agree that Mike Moors' steering is a fine alternative. A short drive in his car two years ago convinced me that I could be happy with power steering, but I also wanted to try the speed sensitive feature.

This picture shows the relative sizes of the Yaris (left) and Prius (right) EPS units.
YarisvsPrius.jpg

I'm a little late to the party but I started to disassemble my dash in prep for adding EPS this afternoon. I was intrigued with the Yaris unit and that's what I got this week. It's a non-ABS unit. The main reason I went this route is because you can add a VSS signal and the unit is supposed to run like factory......less boost at higher speeds. There is a good writeup on this site:

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/steering/sr302.htm

Based on the above article,  I can confirm that the unit requires VSS pulses to become active. The easiest way for me to test it was temporarily wiring it into my car to get access to a VSS signal. The article says it requires 5 pulses to become active, which is roughly 6' with a GM system. So backing out of a parking space should get you there. I'm anxious to get it installed to see how it performs in the B. One of the things I wasn't aware of was the damping these units apply to the steering when going down the road. The article talks about this in detail. I had considered installing a VW steering damper at one point so I'm looking forward to experiencing this as well.

I hope to be closer by this time next week and I'll update everyone here when I have more to report.

On a related note, my wife has a 2015 Corolla with EPS. It has good self-centering, FYI. I believe it only has about 3 degrees of caster.

QuoteI can confirm that the unit requires VSS pulses to become active. The easiest way for me to test it was temporarily wiring it into my car to get access to a VSS signal. The article says it requires 5 pulses to become active, which is roughly 6' with a GM system. So backing out of a parking space should get you there.

So, if you are parallel parked, you are SOL?  That is when one would need it the most.  ;)

Good question Carl. Are you there Larry?
On a related note, my alignment check showed caster of just barely under 7 degrees after installing the reverse caster wedges. They are about 3/8" tapering to maybe a 32nd or less. With the Prius EPS self centering is pretty much non existent.

Jim

I pulled this off a YARIS yesterday at a local yard.
Yariscolumn.png

Dan, is it from an ABS or non-ABS car? Is it a winter project or are you trying to install it before Townsend?

What year, Dan?

2012.  I don't think it was ABS.  What difference does that make?

I have a 81 TR7 parts car out by the barn with briars and crap growing all around it.  I should be able to get the column out of it and then we can see how much difference there is between the MG and TR7.  Hopefully I have a little more room to work with.

Dan, not sure if your unit is the same as the one I have but it sure looks like it is. They say 2006-2011 for the Yaris but that might be what was known at the time the post I looked at was created. If it is the same as mine, non-ABS, you'll need to either give it a VSS signal or put power to pin D31-5 to get it to work. If not, then you'll be running in limp mode. Read the link I posted a couple of posts ago. It has a bunch of information about the Yaris EPS including the wiring.

Quote2012. I don't think it was ABS. What difference does that make?

Tsk, tsk. you haven't been doing your reading assignment, Dan.  ;)

You may be okay.  We will see.  Go back & read (or re-read) Larry Shimp's posts.

Scott wrote: "If it is the same as mine, non-ABS, you'll need to either give it a VSS signal or put power to pin D31-5 to get it to work."

I do have a sensor (magnets attached to the driveshaft) that I installed long ago with the cruise control.  Not using with the cruise, since I am using tach signal for that.  I wonder if it would work with the EPS box.

Hard to say. VSS sensors typically have a considerably higher pulse rate.

Jim

QuoteI do have a sensor (magnets attached to the driveshaft) that I installed long ago with the cruise control. Not using with the cruise, since I am using tach signal for that. I wonder if it would work with the EPS box.

Dan, that's convenient and it should work. In the article I linked to, the guy used a 4 tooth reluctor located on his differential flange to run his unit.

I'm hoping to have mine ready by the end of this week.

QuoteI do have a sensor (magnets attached to the driveshaft) that I installed long ago with the cruise control.

That is what caught my eye in the EPS for MGA article. Mine only uses a single magnet, though.

The link for a hall effect sensor in the article shows a four magnet driveshaft collar.

http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/Holley/holley-efi-sensors.html

The magnetic kit I have is similar to this:
https://www.thecruisecontrolstore.com/250-4165-universal-vss-signal-generator-magnet-kit-with-pick-up-coil/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=250-4165&opi=95576897

So, you run 4 magnets, Dan?

At the Townsend meet this year, Dan B brought his EPS unit along with a TR6 column which we sat down at the dining room table and discussed. Scott and I did comparison drives of each other's cars, both of which are CB. Mine has a smaller steering wheel and the wheels are probably offset a little more to the outside, and also has 6.9 degrees of caster. Scott's is mostly stock I believe. He has the Yaris EPS and I have the larger Prius one.  I do not know how Scott handled the lower connection and the firewall. It's pretty common to affix a solid shaft to the output spline and use the stock column below that. In my case I used a modified Prius double u-jointed drive shaft and a custom made bulkhead stub shaft mounted on timken type bearings IIRC. Bear in mind that this comparison by nature was to some extent subjective.

Both cars exhibited some return-to-center (RTC) but it tended to peter out about 3 inches on the steering wheel rim away from straight ahead. In both cases this effect was not strong enough to follow rapid steering changes but would begin to bring the wheel back to center in a noticeable way, for instance when making a slow 90 degree turn. Scott felt his was slightly stronger, I thought they were about the same or possibly opposite. I felt my steering had a little less friction, though I didn't mention it at the time and don't know that Scott would agree.

So where does this leave us? I think it is fairly clear that if Scott had the higher caster angle or if my car had the smaller EPS unit we would see more RTC. I also think that use of the MGOC roller thrust bearings under the kingpin trunions would increase this effect.

https://mgb.tips/2019/10/26/needle-bearing-mgb-trunnions/

I haven't given up on the kingpin timken retrofit. Other irons in the fire and all that though. I was thinking my bushings might be in need of replacement very soon but it seems that isn't especially urgent. What I need is to find a savvy bearing vendor who knows about these TSL series bearings.

Jim

My EPS is active as soon as the ignition is turned on. I am using the Buno GPS controller which may make a difference. Also, I have reasonable self centering action. The Hoyle suspension retains the MGB kingpins and I installed the needle thrust bearings a few years ago. There is also less resistance from the rack with the quicker ratio.

QuoteWhat I need is to find a savvy bearing vendor who knows about these TSL series bearings.

What info are you looking for?

https://cad.timken.com/category/ed-roller-bearings-tsf-tapered-single-with-flang-2

Carl, I think he wants something like this. Royal King makes them for Ford and Chevy straight axles. They are sold by Speedway Motors. I think the Chevy size could be adapted.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Deluxe-1942-48-Ford-Spindle-King-Pin-Set,9651.html

https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/910-32117.pdf

Ford vs Chevy kingpin sizes. MGB?

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/ford-versus-chevy-kingpins.50891/

I added a Yaris EPS just before Townsend last year. When the two Jim's (Blackwood & Miller) drove my car, the EPS was in limp mode since my VSS was bad with what ultimately turned out to be a bad plug in the wiring. So they didn't really experience the EPS with the VSS in place. Over the winter, I did some further work on the system. I added a micro controller that sends a CAN message that simulates an RPM signal. The EPS now has instant on (within a second or two) at key on. I also played around with the Toyota procedure they call ZERO Point Adjustment. Essentially, you center the steering wheel in the straight ahead position and perform the procedure which let's the EPS ECU know where center is. At the same time, it rewrites the assist tables with new info. This spring I redid the procedure. This is all subjective, of course, but before I redid it, it felt like the return to center was unbalanced between turning left or right. It now feels balanced. It also feels like the steering has a centered position when going down a straight road. As far as return to center, to me, there is a definite improvement. I've been comparing what I have to my wife's Toyota Corolla. When you go around a corner in my wife's car, it returns to center smartly as you accelerate out of the corner. With my car, it will get most of the way there on normal residential streets. I've gone through some roundabouts where it actually returned all the way. In many ways, mine is acting very similarly to the way my wife's acts. I think the difference might be that my wife's car is front wheel drive, so the front wheels power the car and steer it too. I notice when I go around a corner in her car and just let it coast, it won't return all the way to center either, but if I put power to it, it does. The big question for me is, is mine any different than everyone else's? Especially those with a Bruno Box? Bottom line, I like it a lot!

Carl and Jim, what I have been looking for are the TSL series bearings. It's a tapered bearing set with a seal built in.

I had been running the Corolla (I think) EPS in limp mode and recently added the Bruno GPS unit. Put the antenna up next to the windshield pillar on the dash but there may not be enough room on a stock MGB without moving it further towards the center of the car.

Now in limp mode the EPS was a dramatic improvement but I did not like the several second turn on time. Boost was perfectly acceptable though and return to center was... meh, there but not much.

Now turn on is within 1/2 second and boost is dramatic. I can steer the car with a light touch even sitting still. Return to center is better. Not perfect but acceptable. I'm not sure how that happens but I'll take it.

Jim

Maybe this will help.

https://cad.timken.com/viewitems/tapered-roller-bearings/tapered-roller-bearings---tsl--duo-face-plus-seal-

It did not. Neither did a search on that site for TSL.

Jim

Not sure what happened to my link.  There was a specs page.

TSL Bearing measurements:

https://cad.timken.com/keyword/all-product-types?key=all&keyword=tsl&SchType=2

Yeah there's a specs page but it's all for LM style bearings though. No seal.

Jim

What dimensions are you looking for?

TSL Size range:

ID 19.050 mm to 68.262 mm (0.7500 in.  to 2.6875 in.)
OD 45.237 mm to 110 mm (1.7810 in.  to 4.3307 in.)

On the ID, .750", ,785" and ,897", I realize those last two sizes will not exist so the choice is to go oversized and use a sleeve or go undersized and turn down the kingpin journals.

The smallest matching OD would be the way to go I think.

If you have a size chart with bearing numbers for the TSL series I would love to get my hands on that.

Jim

See pages 505-507.

https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Timken-Tapered-Roller-Bearing-Catalog.pdf

https://cad.timken.com/viewitems/tapered-roller-bearings/tapered-roller-bearings---tsl--duo-face-plus-seal-

I did a screen capture and printed off the page with the TSL sizes. No part numbers though. I will take that to the local Bearings Inc and see what they can do with it.

Seems like they would have a metric series...

Jim

Seems like my 2nd link resets back to a default.  Click the link below, then click on the CAD Drawings link. Now, scroll down & click on Tapered Roller Bearings - TSL (DUO-FACE® Plus Seal) Imperial (16).  That will bring up a page with part #s & dimensions.

https://www.timken.com/products/timken-engineered-bearings/tapered-roller/tsl-with-duo-face-plus-seals/

TimkenTSL.jpg

Here is a link to the installation instructions for the Toyota Yaris ServTronic.com EPS module with GPS.

[drive.google.com]

You can purchase the modules direct www.ServTronic.com