On the teamnet Spridget email list, a lister asked why I did my swap: http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,8264 His question and my reply are below. Thought it might be interesting to ask around here. Why did you bother?
Q .Wouldn't a Factory Five Roadster kit achieve the same effect more directly?
No criticism here, as I had often thought of throwing a V-8 into an old
British sports car.But I look at all the fabrication issues and other hurdles and I think "Why
bother?"Why did you choose to do this as opposed to doing something like a Factory
Five kit?
A .Funny, I had that same internal discussion before undertaking the project. I
thought about building a Daytona coupe and probably could have covered the
cost of the kit by selling the Healey. I'd then have to do all the fiberglass
work and paint prep, priming and tons of sanding before sending it out for
paint. And there's still plenty of fabrication to do on a FF. When all is
said and done, it's pretty easy to get $45-65k into a coupe before it's
finished. Balanced against this, I had already done all the bodywork and
paint on the Healey, the swap had been done plenty of times before and I had
lots of help from some guys that had done it and could give me advice on the
fabrication process.. The registration and titling laws in Massachusetts were
in a state of flux in Mass, at the time and some owners were having difficulty
getting their cars road legal, which is ironic and stupid considering Factory
Five is located here. And I've been a
Healey guy for almost 45 yrs, so the decision came down for the Healey. If I
was in the market for a Factory Five now, I'd probably look at a completed
one. There's some great deals out there.
Classic cost benefit ratio. Not to dis FF but the MGB is a relatively modern design compared to the Cobra which didn't even have roll up side windows, and is more comfortable and refined in terms of driver comfort. So right off the bat before the money gets counted there is the comfort issue which easily goes in favor of the B. Then when we get to the money it's absolutely no contest. I paid $1100 for the car and it was in pretty good shape when I bought it. Something comparable today would go for probably around $2500. That leaves what? $42,500 or more for the conversion? (with no blower) Look, even if I got a little carried away, paid others to do the work, bought new wheels and tires, and bought the Jag IRS for it I could probably do it for half that using a 300 Buick engine. Might even have enough to stroke that motor out to 350 cu.in. For the full amount I could have the blower too and probably a brand new paint job and interior. And all that without lifting a finger.
But I enjoy the creative process. Completely aside from the fact that I can build things for the cost of materials I get to create things that have not been done before and I very much enjoy being able to drive the fruits of my labors.If I just bought a FF it would be a cookie cutter, just like every other FF. Whatever engine I put in it would be just like every other engine of that type. An unusual paint color just isn't enough for me, I want something completely unique. Building my own MGB has allowed me full freedom to do that, and do it for a pittance compared to anything I could buy that was even remotely similar.
JB
For me it boils down to a number of factors. Jim is right about the MGB being a little more civilized than a Cobra Clone. I feel the same way about the TR6, it is a civilized car that needs more omph. I like the idea of building a unique car that in my mind is what the TR6 should have been. I also weighed the economic factors and the cost of rebuilding a TR6 drive train with upgrades so it would be more powerful and reliable and I found it to be cost prohibitive. This led me to explore other engines that would achieve the desired effect without emptying out my pocket book and I found the solution using a GM 60 degree V6. Yes it may not be a powerful V8 you would find in a factory five but it works within the limitations of the noodle like frame the TR6 has yet it will provide ample performance and reliability.
Byron
Cobra clone is nice but everyone and their brother seems to own one.
Always wanted a Cobra, until I sat in a Factory Five that a friend was building.
I've built a Cobra clone and while it wasn't a factory five unit, it was a pretty nice car in my opinion.
However it never really felt quite right to me.
Probably due to it's own popularity. Everyone always said "sweet car" "is it real or a kit?'
Which takes all the fun out of it I think.
Driving something that catches people off guard is what makes my motor run.
Besides isn't all the fun in the journey?
I get more enjoyment out of the build than I do out of the finished project.
Some of my most cherished vehicles are the ones that were never finished.
Part of that is likely a complete lack of focus and a stunningly short attention span.
I admire the souls that can set a goal and without wavering, reach it.
That dogged determination is something to be admir.....Oh look at the kitty......
Cheers
Fred
I've built a Factory Five (MKII) and my experience is that, like most restorations or rebuilds, you can build it 'by the book' or you can choose to customize, personalize, or "recreate' it just as you can an MGB, a Healey, or any other piece of British iron. In my case, I was rather fond of the 427 road cars so that's what I built—no side pipes, no roll bar, no hood scoop, front/rear bumper hoops, narrow(er) tires—just the sweet lines of a classic profile. It was, even in kit car land, unique. I'm now nearing the end (if there's a God of Completion, I'll be busy building a shrine to him) of building up a 302-powered MGB (see avatar) and I think both paths have advantages/disadvantages.
On the plus side for FF (and other clone kits) it's a well thought out and relatively complete project that the average weekend oil-changer could put together and have a reliable, fun, and fast little car. How detailed or perfect you want it is really up to the builder. I've seen some pretty darn nice examples built in the $25,000 range...cars I wouldn't mind owning and some really awful ones that were $65,000 and up. FF also presents an excellent platform for those (myself included) who are looking for a place to start and those who want to take to another level. The downside—my perspective—is that you have a very nice copy of a car that thousands are building. I guess the exclusivity has worn a bit with the advent of popularity. Still, a great car for the money that delivers an excellent fun-to-dollars-spent ratio. Oh yeah, and no rusted on crap to have to figure out how to get off so you can replace the part with something twice as expensive as it should be.
On the MGB side of things (same goes for Healeys, Hillmans, Sunbeams, Triumphs etc. I would think), you're starting with a completely engineered platform. While the relative sophistication of these platforms could be debated well into the night, all of the parts work together, parts are generally plentiful, and there's ample history for modifying these cars (reference here to George Snively's original MGB conversion in the mid-60s). On the down side (my experience) re-engineering things to get them to safely work and perform together takes some real knowledge, modifications are not, generally, for the faint of heart or low skilled. Points go to FF on this one. Built according the directions, things go together and work as designed.
So here's where it sits for me—just about anyone (there are a number of examples of guys who's entire mechanical experience was gained successfully building an FF) can do a credible job of building an FFR car and, when complete, they're going to have a reasonably reliable, recreation of one of the most iconic British cars of all time...along with a few thousand other guys. Re-engineering an existing platform takes a much higher skill level and a greater willingness to experiment. It also takes, in my opinion, greater resourcefulness to modify a British car as the entire pool of completed cars—and therefore, modifiers—is significantly less than the kit car end of things.
Why do it (I think that was the original question)? Greater challenge=greater satisfaction...and, sometimes, greater frustration. I think you also end up with something far more unique...and classic at the same time.
every thing that's been said before me.
save's some typing.
personally,i don't care to have someone else's cool stuff,that's like pasting your picture onto one of some other guy's hot wife.
i make it,it's mine.i don't share cool nice.
I look at others and admire their work, but realize my vision is not theirs. Each person has a unique view on what meets their individual needs and vision. hardly any will be identical. :) SAFETY FASTER!
To each his own makes the world go around....... For me......If your going to try to make a MG like a Cobra, you should build a Cobra. If your are excited about making the MG something unique and your own, I would expect it to be something different then a stock MG. The MG is a great economical chassis to start.
The Chassis of the MG was super modern for 1962 but not so in the later years. Unfortunately most of the rest of the MG was getting old in 1972 and antique by the mid 70's.
I don't think I would say the MG is more modern then the Cobra; just different. The Factory 5's are not known for being much of a Cobra; more of like a kit car meaning there are some short comings to the reproduction of the original Cobra and to the car itself.
It all depends on what your goals are. My brother has a Superformance. He is running around 800hp naturally aspirated. He flogs it like he stole it on the drag strip and the track. He is in the 10's in a quarter mile (which he is not suppose to do without full cage) and at a meet on a large track (not a parking lot race) with several Lotus turbo Esperi's he was spanking every one of them.
The car is stout, light tough and fast. It is well built and in your face mean. I know of no MG which could even pretend to hang with it. I think it does have roll up window but yes it does not have a radio or the comforts of most cars.
Is it like the original Cobra? Shelby now calls the Superformance his own so I would say close enough.
There are some neat old VW Bugs out there. But if you put a fiberglass Rolls Royce nose on it, you neither have a cool bug nor a RR.
I would say if you want to build a super cool awesome unique MG; build one. It is a neat and exciting thing to do. If you want to build a Cobra, build a Cobra.
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars2/shakedown.jpg
Gary
"The Factory 5's are not known for being much of a Cobra; more of like a kit car meaning there are some short comings to the reproduction of the original Cobra and to the car itself"
Agreed, but what about the cockpit ergonomics? The FF Cobra is the only one I ever sat in. The driver's seat, steering wheel, & pedals were not on the same centerline. It was not a cockpit that I felt I would want to spend much time in. Very disappointing after many years of lusting for a Cobra (kit version).
I think to expect a Cobra to be a good touring car would be a stretch. When My brother has his top on in the winter, they have to use a noise canceling motorcycle type headset to talk to each other.
It's really apples and oranges. Not to say I have not seen guys put 305's in cobra's which your MG would run circles around.
"The Factory 5's are not known for being much of a Cobra; more of like a kit car meaning there are some short comings to the reproduction of the original Cobra and to the car itself"
According to who? Might be worth spending a little time on the FF5 web site. The frame is a twin round tube design that's very similar to the original with points added for modern suspension components and crush zones added for safety. While the FF5 doesn't use fiberglass footboxes or trunk floor like the originals, the most recent version of the body is very close to the original shape (no more 'perky' butt).
Regarding the Cobra as a touring car, I built one and drove it in all kinds of weather with both a soft top and hard top and, as far as I can tell, it was is no better or worse than other British or British inspired roadster - plenty of wind noise and the ever present rain leaks (why all LBCs have drain plugs in the floor).
The FF5 has been unfairly disparaged, it seems, because it isn't a 'factory' built unit or because it's design and engineering are deemed inferior. While I'll concede that the quality of the final product is largely in the hands of the individual builder (as it is with most hobby cars), I have seen FF5s whose build quality and faithfulness to the originals are quite good if not excellent. And, frankly, having the chicken farmer's blessing on anything other than the 3,000 or so originals is just grab for licensing money.
I think I'm hearing a bunch of opinionated individualist...isn't it refreshing ? I hope we're not a vanishing breed. I like to think that's what helped our motherland to prosper ? We take cars made for the masses, and turn them into our individual "dream". Weather they started in a "mold" or an assembly line, the mere fact that we're still doing this, is cause to celebrate ! roverman.
Amen Roverman! I've said for a long time that our country would do well to return to agriculture and production vs. just consumption. There's a work ethic, drive and entrepreneurial spirit we've lost as we've stopped having to figure out how to make something work - or adapt it to.
We haven't forgotten. And we're still here. But we do need some of the red tape to go away.
JB
That I still remember, about 30 years ago, in CA., the brainy/powerful-very important spoke to the unworthy masses,"California will no longer be a manufacturiong state, we will be a technology state". The beginning of the end, as I see it. The surrounding states welcomed/courted manufacturing companies from CA to their states and have been very successfull. roverman.
"That I still remember, about 30 years ago, in CA., the brainy/powerful-very important spoke to the unworthy masses,"California will no longer be a manufacturiong state, we will be a technology state". The beginning of the end, as I see it. The surrounding states welcomed/courted manufacturing companies from CA to their states and have been very successfull."
It's not just CA. As a country we seem to have lost our sense of self-reliance, preferring to out-source our solution making to other countries or other states. I'm no isolationist by any stretch but if we are ever to get ourselves strong again, we need to start building our own things, looking to our own sense of creativity and talent first, while keeping up with the rest of the world and learning from the best they have to give...but doing it ourselves. We have sacrificed quality and hard work at the altar of convenience and have put ourselves at the mercy of those who are still willing to pick up their tools and sweat in the bargain.
Fred Key,
"Some of the most cherished vehicles are the ones we never finish". From your quote above, I completely agree. It is the journey.
keep them on the track.
phillip g
I've had two long journeys in the restoration process. My bugeye Sprite took almost 10 yrs to finish, and I'm ashamed to say the Nasty Boy has taken almost 25 yrs. I've enjoyed both journeys immensely, but there's an awful lot to be said for making it to the end of the trail.
I hear ya Rick! I have been working on this Pantera for over 5 years. Assembly is taking for ever. I have re-designed EVERYTHING about the car from a from scratch aluminum air dam, aluminum hood, heating system, power steering, a-arms, and on and on and on. BUT when I get done it will very much be a car my very own:
(http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/strip/strip1.jpg)
(http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/airdam/ad27.jpg)
(http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hb/hb9.jpg)
(http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/FS2/fs1.jpg)
Gary,
Beautiful work! Just think of it doing all the development work the DeTomaso engineers never had a chance to finish.
Permit me to answer the original question I posed:
<iframe width="960" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZAOGx2Lo6rk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Awesome... especially after the turn-around when we hear the engine as you run up through the gears!
Guess that answers the question (why bother?), no?