What is the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to a V6 conversion using their kit?
I have used one of the early kits and found it to be very well engineered and complete. I particularly appreciated the instruction booklet that Bill included with it. Naturally, you may have to modify certain portions of your engine bay and tranny tunnel. But, that would be true of almost any engine conversion. Some folks suggested using a hydraulic throwout bearing, but, Glenn Towery was able to use my existing slave cylinder on the V6 T5, allbeit with a little hammer work on the tranny tunnel. We did have to modify the steering shaft, using a rubber bumper shaft, because the chrome bumper knuckle rubbed on the header. I understand that issue may have been solved with the new headers.
Jason:
I just recently installed Bill's conversion kit on my 79. I bought it in April and got it all installed within a couple of months (working on weekends). That included the time necessary to pull the engine and tranny from the donor car (83 s-10 with a 2.8l), fix up the engine, figure out I had the wrong tranny, find the right tranny and install it in my car and get it running. Still doing some clean up (electrical issues, getting the gauges right and trying to figure out an overheating issue).
Pros: the kit is well made and the instructions from Bill are exceptional. More importantly, the support I received from Bill and from people on this forum was invaluable. That was worth the cost of the kit itself.
Cons: I am not an accomplished mechanic (I have rebuilt a couple of engines, worked with a lot of MGs, but have never done a engine and tranny swap and have been too spoiled by new cars for 2 decades), but the actual swap and installation was easy; the hard part was/has been the details. The exhaust, carb, air filter and gauges work after the swap have been more time-consuming, expensive and equivocal that I anticipated. Plan ahead and read more than I did and you will be fine. Also, while I love the way my car is running, if I had to do it all again, I would have gone with a bigger engine. Still. It runs like a champ and doing 90 on I-15 to Vegas in an MG can't be beat.
Bottomline: The kit is well worth the money. The conversion is well worth it, but it is harder than I anticipated. If I can help with any specific questions, let me know.
I just picked up a 2nd GT and have 2 2.8 motors. I would be building it for my wife to drive if I decide to build it, I will still build my GT with more HP.
I found a place in MO that builds performance 2.8s and their hp rating is somewhere around 180 hp which I think would be good for her. My other issue is that she does not drive stick or have any desire to learn. I would have to put a 2004R in it as it is a little smaller than the 700R4, he issue is wether or not it will easily fit and if it is a direct bolt to the 2.8. I know there were autos behind them not sure what was behind them though.
The 2004r was a dual pattern tranny and so would bolt up to the BOP engines as well as the SBC. If your engine uses the small GM corporate pattern it is not a direct bolt on. Very good transmission choice however, if it can be made to work. The gear ratios are much better suited for our purposes.
JB
My concern more was how it would fit in the tranny tunnel.
Speedway Motors has an adapter for small V6 to GM large automatics.
Like all American transmissions it has a wide pan which makes it a tight fit in any LBC. However the usual culprits requiring attention are accumulators and such sticking out to the sides. The 2004r isn't too bad in this area but some tunnel mods may be required. The 700r4 doesn't fit without cutting, but you may get by with bumping a couple spots. I just looked in the photo section and oddly there doesn't seem to be a car with that transmission so no help there. But I had bought one before deciding to go with a Lexus tranny and I believe it'll be a pretty good fit.
JB
To switch topics a little, I would want to run 15" wheels, I am guessing 6" wide would be a decent fit with something like a 205/50 in the front and a 225/50 in the rear (tire size subject to change). Considering I do not want to add flares, what would be the recommended offset? I would also be lowering it maybe 2 inches, would have to wait till I get the wheels and tires on to decide how much.
Jason, To avoid un-needed tunnel mods, you may want to consider Aisian/Warner 30-40 od. ?To spot the "pre-computer controlled", make sure it has a "TV"- throttle valve cable on pass side.Trans features a removable BH,Toyota V6 Celica/trucks, Volvo, etc. Good Luck, roverman.
Art is right, the Asian trannies are a really good fit. I have the AA80E in my car right now and you won't be going any bigger than that. It's snug but required no bumping. The pan is nice and narrow. Photos are in the 340 thread. Also I think Jim Nichols is using a Jeep version of the Asian. we've barely scratched the surface of what can be done with these and what adapters/bellhousings are available, but I think all but the 80 have removable bellhousings using a round pattern. Megashift for shifter control. Very good transmissions with excellent shift characteristics and good gear ratios.
For your offset you are just going to have to do some measuring. The amount of variation in the bodies and mountings mean that to run big tires you need to know the measurements for the exact car.
JB
The motor mounts for the 2.8, it looks to be a bolt in deal, are these bolted to pre existing holes or do you have to decide where you want to put the engine and drill your own?
They are a bolt in deal. The only work is balancing the engine, and that is a simple case of adjusting the nut.
I was looking in the engine compartment yesterday and it looks like they would use the same mounts as the front crossmember. When you say balancing, do you mean side to side?
I meant getting the angle of the engine correct.
Getting a little closer to starting on this. I sent Classic Conversions a message asking a few questions. I will have to wait till they get back to me to decide for sure to order the kit.
"They are a bolt in deal. The only work is balancing the engine, and that is a simple case of adjusting the nut"
The motor mounts are adjustable. This feature allows for pinion angle adjustment and to set the engine level from side to side to side.
We found that for every 10 kits we sold one or two MGB;s were involve in an accident and the frame rails were off just a bit to offset the leveling of the engine. Customer needed to use shims.
The new motor mounts allows you to set the engine level and angle of the engine. It is like a custom fit installation.
The adjustment is done via a nut in the motor mount.
I also have a spread sheet that gives you everything you need for the swap and can help you to plan the swap and keep track of the cost.
Some may need to spread sheets, the actual one and one for your wife LOL LOL
As with everything in this world, its a mixture of good and not so good.
Bill is helpful, the stuff does sort of work, but it is expensive for what you get.
Bill was a pioneer and put together a set of mounts so people had something to start with.
Bill, like a lot of pioneers, seems to get something to work, with little care for cost or refinement.
Times have changed, advances made, and now many people have provided more and more finished
ways and information on the V6 conversion than Bill. My hat is off to Bill for his contribution to getting the ball rolling,
and the multitude of hobbyists who have made further contributions.
It is worthwhile to be mindful that there are a lot of things besides the kit which are needed to do the conversion, and those can be expensive items, especially if bought separately and new. Also, several expensive items are offered which are completely unnecessary.
My experience:
I bought one Guzman kit for the first v6 conversion I did (about 6 yrs ago). I had to rework some of the parts. Quality problems and troubles typical of a pioneer's design. I eventually discarded all the parts.
I have several MGB's I wanted to make into BV6's, so I took the time to make my own design motor mounts and find several better and less expensive ways to do the conversion.
example:
I use an s10 bell housing so the transmission stands upright and the s10 slave is inboard, so no HTOB is required. It also uses the much lighter s10 flywheel. I buy my exhaust manifolds elsewhere. I make the rear tranny cross support. The total cost for this route is less than half the cost of Bill's kit. It takes me a day to make a complete setup, and material cost is about $60. The mounts I make can't sag with time, the engine height can be changed, and the motor usually sits slightly lower (a good thing). I make a simple mount for the alternator which puts it on the passenger's side. It is configured so the water pump can be spun either way.
I found that there are many things besides the mounts which take time and/or money in order to do the conversion, and there are a lot of inexpensive alternatives to what some people have offered or recommended to get those things done. Vendors and people with more money than they know what to do with document a plethora of needlessly expensive ways to do the conversion.
examples:
Mustang ('67 v8) radiator fits in, and costs about $135. The fancy aluminum ones are upwards of $300 and no better (if as good). I use an inline High pressure pump and dont modify or replace the gas tank. You can get a fancy gas tank for $600 or so, if shiny appeals to you. Bottom line: it's just a gas tank.
I buy a whole donor car (pref shabby and less than 125K miles) so the drivetrain essentials and nearly all the extra bits are bought at a low price and I see working.( I have found many 2.8's, 3.1's and 3.4's still in service and running well at 200K miles,
I feel spending thousands for a refreshed or 'crate' drivetrain is a waste of money for most people) . My $1000 purchase gives me nearly everything I need, saves me hundreds in extra's, and still gives me back a few hundred at the scrap yard. If you want, you can spend several thousand dollars for a motor and transmission....
I use the S10 setup so it is more serviceable and less expensive. It only takes a $4 napa union to mate to the MG hydraulics, and there is no HTOB to buy, install (that can be problematic) or have to take the drivetrain back out to service it when it fails. It takes the light s10 flywheel, which is more appropriate for this application than the big, heavy camaro one. All the parts were designed to work together.
I make the mounting parts from 1/4" steel plate stock (not 5/16) so they are stiff and durable. The design lets me alter the height of the motor in a simple way. These work with guzman or BCC manifolds. These are relatively easy to install, even with the manifolds in place.
I install the motor with fuel injection. It's cheaper and the motor runs better that way.The motor was designed for fuel injection, and you ought to use a different cam when you retrofit a carburetor. It is not particularly difficult to install fuel injection, since the wiring diagrams and all that are on the internet and elsewhere (haynes amanuals, etc.). (Besides, the wholeefi setup is in the donor car), and its a matter of transplanting.
I assemble the drivetrain on the ground and check out the clutch actuation, add the fittings (oil pressure, hydraulic line from clutch slave, etc) before I try to put it into the car. If it's a T5 transmission, I remove the extra bumps on the bottom of the tailshaft so it can go into place more easily, then dress the areas which need to be displaced so the drivetrain will fit into the space. . My first attempts are without the exhaust manifold or motor mounts, and the dressing is done with a ball peen hammer a little at a time. The top of the tunnel is also raised a bit.
Finally, I trial fit it all together, and once it goes in smoothly and satisfactorally, I remove it all so I can paint and finish the engine bay and edge the surrounding areas. I then do a final assembly. This gives a pretty result.
I posted copies of the mount design on the mgexperience site.
I think Bill continues to refine his products. For instance, a new motor mount design which is easily adjusted for height and such.
Jim
Jason, I left you a private message. BCC is located near Dayton Ohio, in Kettering.
Dann
Jason, Andy Bradley of http://www.bradleyrestoration.com/ has done automatic conversions using the 700 4R in MGB's which are the same size as the 200R. His is the West Coast Distributor for BCC conversion kits and accessories.
Dann
Jim
I am aware of some of these recent refinements Bill has advertised. As I pointed out above, I take my hat off to Bill and other poineers (e.g. Damm Wade) in this area.
Nonetheless I think it is worthwhile to point out that Bill's CCE is not the only game in town for making a BV6 (see British Car conversions, for example. British Car Conversions has a proven history of high quality supplies and expertise). They offer a wide range of well worked out conversion parts. BMC Autos offers a lot of convenient bits for finishing the job, too.
I also wanted to point out that you need not necessarily buy a kit at all. When you buy a kit, you pay a lot of money for not much stuff. These days, plans are readily available on the internet for people to make their own parts (or improve upon), and there is more expertise available for free via the forums than any vendor now has. In this case there are plenty of good (and sometimes better) and less expensive ways to go than vendors recommend or try to sway people toward.
I am not saying the vendors do this with malice or just profit as a motive, but rather they are much less constrained when spending someone else's money. The vendors have the mindset of pioneers, not the average hobbyist who wants a converted car but has some economic constraints. The forum here and at mgexperience.net are great sources of information to help the folks considering a conversion without wasting a lot of money.
Scot, thanks for the plug, the pat on the back, second top billing and the devastation of my name but it makes me wonder where anyone would have gotten any conversion information if it hadn't been for the "pioneers" in the first place. Sure there are a lot of individuals who may do a few extraordinary conversions but they don't always post it and they aren't 60V6 conversions. There are vendors who deal with large V8 engines and don't concern themselves with smaller conversions because that's who they are. Most are in a spin off club or organization that recognize extreme conversions. You have an animosity to this type of conversion and you are very oratorally challenged on the subject and always will be.
I was curious when and where did you get your first conversion information? The conversion vendors did not start posting until after 2001. If I recall correctly Brian Mc. and I collaborated by email about my conversion efforts before we joined the MGB Experience forum. Brian joined first, then me, then Bill G. Not necessarily as members but as participants. If I recall you did a car in 2004 or 2006. Do you suppose that no one would be posting questions on a forum if there was no one involved in MGB conversions originally? I cannot express my disappointment in you for the article that obviously leads people to believe they could do a conversion without the information that preceded their purchase of an MGB for the intention of converting it. You got your information from the forums. Wasn't it you who sat in my office and discussed conversions on a few occasions? Wasn't it you who purchased the first drive shaft adapter because it was less then a drive shaft? You singularly did pioneer a fuel injection set up for a 4 cylinder which is commendable but you also learned from other sources how to use the 60V6 in an MGB. Am I wrong or right? You pioneered nothing in the conversion that I know of. The standard 3 vendors are still here struggling as usual to provide a service and their only reward is an occasional sale. Why kill them for that? Each and every person who volunteered information in the forums should be thanked for their efforts including yourself. Never assume that if you offer up something on the cheap it would be accepted without question. The bottom line is the conversion vendors brought all of the information to the forums with them and unselfishly spread it around, if they hadn't of done that there would have not been gentlemen like yourself taking the step toward a 60V6 conversion. Your efforts are commendable but your lack of refinements lack imagination but that's OK because you are satisfied with that. Am I disappointed with you?...yes. Are we still friends...absolutely.
Dann not DAMM
Dann,
I guess my post was poorly written, for by no means did I want to infer that you would steer people toward spending more money or time than needed to get a cool ride, or suggest that anything you or BCC provided was less than excellent quality and value. It must come as a shock to you that not all vendors are as sensitive to quality and value as you are, nor as honest about cost of the project when done one way or another. For reasons of enthusiasm and lack of retrospection, some vendors encourage adoption of needlessly expensive or impractical routes and items. It's not an action of malice-just overactive enthusiasm.
.
I had started considering a conversion when I bought an SD1 a VERY long time ago (20 yrs or so). I sought an inexpensive and reasonable way to make a nice, reliable peppy daily driver based on an MGB. I was about to start that project (after doing a few spit 6 projects, restoring several MGB's, converting many Olds and Caddies with GM diesels to gas cars, and after making a few convertibles out of XKE 2+2's and XJS's) and so I spent a day with Glenn Towery down in Cheswold, De. to get some more detailed info on the project. . Glenn did me the favor of telling me honestly about the costs and strategies that were the essence of the route at that time. I decided that day to abandon that route because of the expense, crowded engine bay and reliance on the British stuff at the time. It wasn't for me.
I eventually heard that a few people had put a common GM motor (60 degree V6) in a B (without the usual butcher's approaches), and became interested in trying that route. I discovered the MGE site, started reading, getting advice and buying stuff for the conversion. As it happened, I bought a camaro donor car (a 3.1 with sitck) for the projec, while at the same time a friend of mine bought a 2.8 S10 with stick for me for the same project( not knowing I got the Camaro). I bought a B with no motor, then I studied both drivetrains together and apart I found I could use the s10 bellhousing, clutch, etc., with the camaro motor and camaro T5. I had been led to believe that I needed an HTOB for the drivetrain, but the hardware showed me that that was untrue. I subsequently found that the interchangability and intermixing of parts was known in a lot of hobbyist circles, including the vendor who had me buy the HTOB. The cost was over $200 for a poorer way to actuate the clutch than I already had in hand. I similarly found that a Mustang radiator worked very nicely( from the MGE forum-not from a vendor), which saved me another few hundred dollars from getting any of the several much more expensive options offered to me by vendors. I made a simple bracket setup so there was no big expense for billet pulleys.( I see no reason to throw out stuff that is paid for and works well for something else, just because a vendor touts how good it is.)
After these experiences I decided to post the experiences I've had, the plans of parts I've developed and use, and information I find so that others can benefit from my experience, or at least have another option to consider.
I sincerely apologise if I offended you in any way. I respect you greatly as a pioneer with vision and perveyor of high quality goods, and I hope to keep you as a friend.
Scot, thank you for a courteous reply. I know you as a gentleman and I know we both value our friendship with each other. Because I don't agree with some of your methods doesn't mean I don't see you as an accomplished person. I think you are correct in saying that I over extend myself when I engineer new products. This is me and you are one of the few people who respect that because we have always had a great deal in common. Our thought processes are not much different, I just take mine to a very high level of developmental application. You can cut it off while I get obsessed. I think it is a fault to be like me. I would always hope to find a guy like me if I needed assistance. Maybe I am a pain in the a$$ to some but I never been called out for being anything but honest. None of our products never ever had a problem in any fashion. I can say that to anybody and challenge them over it. A lot of new doin's is happenin' since our move into the new shop and you know you are always welcome to visit anytime.
After reading my thread to you does seem a bit harsh but it's hard to convey a sneaky smile in a sentence. Never worry about your status with me, I'm still the same old temperamental old goat I always was. The friends I have understand me and I understand them. I don't have a whole lot of friends but I would trust my life with most of them and vice versa. The last I heard from you, you had a big homebuilding project going on. Did you ever get it the way you wanted?
BTW, did you know that the first Killer B was produced in 1992? This makes me the guru of the 60V6 swap set and an honor I cherish. I was there in the conversion business long before big Bill and I have a small plate on that car autographed by Mr. Costello himself complimenting the conversion that says "Great job Mike and Dann" and then his handwritten signature. Well that was a great inspiration to me and I always followed Costello's praise by producing the best products possible. Mr. Mike Maloney was the purchaser of that vehicle in the year 1999 I believe and he loved it and drove it for a quite few years. He always said he really liked the car so much he used to take it out and run it hard to get his "fix". Mike is a collector/distributor, if you will, of unusual cars and he exchanges rides on occasion just to purchase another interesting ride. Mike sold it to a gentleman in the Midwest I believe and occasionally I get an email from him telling me that "my car" is the most delightful car he has ever owned. So much for bragging but now it's a historical fact that the first 60V6 conversion known nationwide was the blue Killer B. I still have a photo of the signed plate hanging in my office. New, better and great things are brewing in the works at the new shop. It's great to have something fill in my life again.
Dann
Scott, glad that you can your own.
I started CCE in 2000, did my first V6 2.8 Ford in 1979 and a V8 in 1973 215 with a 3 speed manual trans in a 68 GT LOL it came from a Buick Skylark.
First GM 60 degree V6 in 1998 for a friend and that is what started CCE. I ma not a Guru at anything, I will become one when I stropped learning.
Those who do their own conversion parts got the ideas from what Dann calls vendors. The big one that everyone does when they do their own mounts is the use of the cross member bolts to mount the engine, the first was CCE which now is commonly used by everyone.
I know of a gentleman here in Ca. who tried to copy Dann's blue GT, he finally gave up. He would have never started the conversion if he had not seen Dann's GT in one of his travels and that is a good thing.
BTW the blue GT, Mike sold it to a gentleman here in Ca who lived in Canoga Park or Thousand Oaks, which is about 10 miles from me. The last time I saw the car was at our car show about 4 years ago. I am sure it still around, but a no show at the car shows or car events.
Scot you may claim that the kits cost to much for what you get, there is a cost involve and yes a profit my is small since I do not have a big overhead. Our products are well design and finish as if they are going to be shown at a car show.
Our headers are flow design, many hours spend in the flow table all of products are of a high quality and design to be easy to install such as our V6, 4 link, pulley kits and soon our front end kit, which it has been on the table for 4 years.
Dann's products are of a good quality also I am sure we all do our best for those who want a kit for a RWD, FWD V6. or Ford V8.
I am very happy that you can do it on the cheap and sure that it will be a nice swap.
You an I have talked on the phone several times. Writing is very impersonal and can lead to misunderstandings.
I have seem several MGB's V6 and V8 that have owners build motor mounts etc. Very few looked ok the rest? one has to wonder.