Can you all, who are much more knowledgeable than I, give me the pros and cons of the 2 different styles of roller rockers for buick/ rover heads. That is shaft mounted stock style vs stud mounted via adapter plate chevy sbc style?
Justin
Really? No one has had any experiences with the sbc style rockers and adapter plates that they can share?
Justin, I have not used stud mounted,roller rockers, as yet on Rovers. If your mounting plates are rigid enough, I see no reason why they would'nt work.Rover V8's have a much lighter valve package than sbc's,(less work for the studs/rockers).Advantages could be : cost, ratios available, and accomodate different int/exh. installed heights.Cheers, roverman.
Not much help, but I run 7/16" stud mounted Harlan Sharp roller rockers with a 560 solid lift cam on my 350 '68 Camaro. Much preferred over the Buick/Rover method.
I would like something similar for my Buick 215.
Thanks for the replies. I've been looking at the HotRod Article and talked to Joe Sherman Racing about the plates they're selling and wondering if it was a good alternative to TSI, TA Performance, and so on. Certainly more cost effective.
Thanks
If anyone here is currently running something like that, I'm not aware of it.
Tim Lanocha from Lanocha racing has been running the plate with chevy rollers for years with awesome power results. This MGBGT is set up this way.
http://www.britishv8.org/MG/LorenzHassenstein.htm
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After adding up the cost of shermans kit and the fact that you need guided roller rockers [which he states are hard to come by and he only had the set used in the magazine build] they are another 350.00 then you still may need to clearance the ends of the trunnion,purchase custom length pushrods which need to be pushrod oiling type then add lifters you are better off with the T.A. performance roller setup cost wise performance wise etc the ratio on the T.A. rockers are 1.6 [shermans 1.52] if you are running past 6k then you would notice THE LOSS. Stick with T.A. or Woody Coopers from the wedge shop and if you are intent on the stud setup give woody a call and have him order up some from lanocha ,sherman is slow rude and unorganized not at all customer friendly he stalls and gives plenty of call me later excuses and whines he cant spend any time with you until he sees some money. T.A. PERFORMANCE as well as Woody Cooper have been wonderful to work with any time i had questions, ive spent money with them and will continue to support their companys they are helpful and knowledgeable. I tried ordering from harland sharp they were too busy too custom make any shafts and stands for the rockers their rollers are 1.55 ratio and bushed they have good warranty history and will take the time to help, could i have waited two and a half months i would have bought from them, I ordered from T.A. as for the money they are the way to go i did the comparisons and based upon performance gained per dollar [PROVEN DESIGN] id say i made a wise choice ,you will need to either raise the stock rocker covers or buy taller ones. It is an easy choice T.A. Performance, Woodys Roller setup or if you just want rollers and stock shafts are strong enough for your application Harland Sharps cant be beat.
To me it looks like you could make that adapter bar easily. Figure pushrod length and use common SBC 1.6 roller rockers. It does'nt look like rocket science to me. A piece of 6061 aluminum like that would be under $10. That's a pretty high profit margin. The Cadillac 4.9 uses a similar set up but more complicated as the valves are rotated more sideways. Personally I think a 1/2" steel bar would be more ridgid. The aluminum one in the Caddy has stripped out or cracked sometimes.Here is a picture of the Caddy setup in steel and the aluminum Buick setup:
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There are valve cover adapters available to use SBF and now SBC valve covers. The increased height will probably be needed for the rollers. Some on this board are going to small V6 roller lifters also. Has anybody tried the newer Buick V6 beehive valve springs?
New beehive valve springs,... that's so funny! Olds used them on the first 215's.
JB
Jim, I knew that. (LOL) Actually Olds used them way before that in the first V8, 1952? or around there. I know some people are using the 3800 valves. So why not try the valvesprings also. Actually Ford V6 uses them also.
As in pac alloy, Ferrea ? Bought a set for the 5.7L hemi. AWESOME ! Had I only known, I would'nt have cut the Merlin seats to use Comp. beehives, and their less $'s ! roverman.
As in pac alloy, Ferrea ? Bought a set for the 5.7L hemi. AWESOME ! Had I only known, I would'nt have cut the Merlin seats to use Comp. beehives, and their less $'s ! roverman.
I bought a set of Yella Terras From USA about 1,5 years ago. Straight swap. Roller tip with bush on the shaft. I also have SBC Comp beehives in Merlin heads. Funny though, the beehive was 4 grams lighter than the "normal" spring. Naturally the retainer is smaller and lighter.
If you want to go shaft mounted rollers, look at T and D rockers with the cut to length aluminum tube spacers. You will need 2 feet of the tubing to do a set of heads. Word of advice. Order them without the oiling holes drilled and drill them yourself, or else they will dump way too much oil onto the valve spring area. I also had to have bushings installed into the oiling holes in the heads under the stantions to cut down on oil supply.
http://www.tdmach.com/
This is good info, that's why I asked here.
Terry,
The $350 rocker price tag is a bit high. Proform rockers can be had for $166 for a set and if you don't want to go with Chinese rockers there are Scorpion rockers for around $220, both have a ratio of 1.6:1 and are self aligning. I think, may be wrong, if one is using non stock length, over sized valves that custom pushrods would most likely be needed to keep the correct geometry...right? Lifters are cheap and need replacing anyhow and I can live with oiling through the push rod. I hear what you're saying about a reputable vendor but I wouldn't put Joe Sherman Racing in the shady, inexperienced category, and I talked to them and didn't have the same experience you had but what do I know?
So roller rockers from TSI run about $425 a set using all your own shafts. Using SBC adapters $289, rockers $166-$220= $455 - $509. I have no problem with Chinese rockers, probably overkill for my little 4.9 rover so the difference comes down to around $30. TA, Yella Terra, WedgeShop are way out of my income bracket so they are non starters for me.
justin, not questioning mr shermans engine building, as stated the aluminum adapters do have a higher chance of stripping and or breaking, as for cost chinese made rockers arent a bargain. look on ebay or shop around for some and you will find some better quality maybe used for less. using you own shafts then go with the Harland sharps for 400.00 and be done with it. Im no expert on aftermarket however i do have quite a bit of experience with stock factory rover engines as ive been a rover technician since 1998 and have seen all of the things that go wrong and can be improved upon ive come up with some of the factorys fixes for them that work better than their engineers. As the valvetrain is one of the weak areas the oiling system another i would suggest you reconsider using the cheap adapter from sherman as lanochas is proven sherman himself told me he didnt know about its reliability all in all seriously save yourself an expensive headache and buy something allready proven by the hard learned lessons of others! Just my two cents,
Honestly, I don't really see why all the interest in roller rockers. Are you guys running half an inch of lift and 7 grand redlines or something? I hardly know anyone running a street engine over 6, and once you get past about .400 lift streetability tends to suffer. Am I missing something here?
JB
Jim, stock rover cast rockers can and do break with disasterous consequences, [i know ive broken them and seen others do the same] this is on stock engines even. my only issue is not to use inferior parts that may fail at or below the level a stock one would without any performance or cost benefit. rollers do offer up some advantages although small at stock power levels. all the same geometry is improved with properly designed roller setup[ ie T.A.] friction reduction etc. if you are going to spend money enough to upgrade the valvetrain why bother with something that is mediocre or unproven reliability wise and gives a negligible performance improvement if any, my input was only geared at averting a possible bad outcome of someone choosing an inferior product touted as new or revolutionary in design, i hope this closes the issue as ive done my part going over the merits pros and cons of each system. i stand by my little bit of input ,in closing i only hoped to save others from making a bad parts combo choice.
My name is Dave Nelson and I am the engine builder of the Hot Rod 300 Stroker. I would like to set the record straight regarding my valve train conversion. Unfortunately, I did not have an opportunity to talk with Terry, and Joe's recollection of the conversation is a little different. Joe was taking calls for me while I was away on a long over due vacation. It's true that Joe is not familiar with Small Block Buicks and Rovers ( he has built Buick big blocks ), but he is a very highly regarded engine builder with over 40 years of experience. He worked for Edelbrock for 14 years in new product development and was credited by Hot Rod Magazine as being the first to put a Gen 1 Camaro into the 10's ( in 1968 ) with a normally aspirated 350 SBC.
He is also credited as one of the first to put a 400 crank into a 350 Chevy in the very early 70's, there-by creating one of the most popular stroker combos ever, the 383 SBC.
He won the inaugural Popular Hot Rodding Engine Masters Contest with a normally aspirated 365 c.u. SBC that made 614 H.P at a street friendly 6500 RPM on pump gas with a hydraulic roller cam and single 4 bbl. Carb. He competed and prevailed against some very well known and respected engine builders.
To be honest, it wasn't clear to me what the demand would be for this conversion during the time I was building the motor and developing it. Because of this, I did a short production run and probably started later than I should have. But I sold the first sets right away (one person bought 2 sets) and got a little behind.
It doesn't surprise me that there have been similar conversion for the Buick or Rover, but I was not aware of any and did not copy or knock-off anybody.
I also want to add, that although the conversion plates may look simple, they are a lot more complicated and there are more machining steps than what may appear. For one thing, the rocker studs are not perpendicular to the bar, they have to be set at the correct angle in order to achieve the proper rocker function and geometry while at the same time position the push rods correctly. .
My system utilizes a 5/8 thick, extruded bar of 6061 T6 aluminum for plenty of thread engagement. An extrusion is closer to a forging than a casting is and we have built race motors that rev well past 7000 RPM ( i.e. higher valve spring pressures )with stud mounted rockers in aluminum heads (356 castings ) and never had a rocker stud pull out or the stud boss crack.
Our motor made 10 pulls on the dyno several up to 6300 rpm with absolutely no problems. I check the lifter preload after this session and nothing changed. Currently, this motor resides in a beautiful 67 Skylark and has accumulated several thousand miles. Again, we recently checked the valve adjustment and, as before, no readjustment was needed.
We usually recommend up-grading to a high-end Jessel style shaft mounted roller rockers when building a race motor with a big solid roller cam a ultra high valve spring pressures. Stud mounted rocker have proven to be very reliable in stock and high performance engines for many years, in part, because they oil better than factory shaft systems.
Also, stud mounted rocker geometry is much easier to correct (simply accomplished with push rod length) than shaft rockers, especially if you change valve lengths.
What Joe said when asked about the reliability of our system was that we have not had any call backs from the customers that purchased our kit meaning: no complaints or problems. We just sold a kit with large trunion, stainless steel rockers for $560.00. You wouldn't want to run a T&D or TA shaft system with the wimpy stock .250 dia. Buick solid push rods and Chevy lifters are a lot cheaper than Buick lifters.
Dave
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Thanks, David. The 5/8" thick bar in the pictures look pretty stout. The picture I posted, it looks much thinner, I assumed 1/2". How much would you sell just the bars for? I read quite a few articles about Joe's engine work and never doubted his expertise.
Unfortunately I have a rover with a 500 plus lift cam I bought with roller rockers and they appear to have not markings on them so I dont know what they are? I am trying to get information on them and also what was done to the bar. I know that Group 44 and Ken Slagle ran roller rockers on thier engines and from both of them Group 44 suffered an issue with a roller rocker stud pulling out the threads in the head. The only real problem is valve covers. The standard SD1/TR8 dont fit and the rocker arms hit them I tried a set or early Rover 3500/P6 and they might work. I know you can use later ones and do some shaving or remove the baffle plates but them you will get oil in the breather/vent line really bad.
If your expecting pulled studs, I suggest "Timeserts" installed from the bottom, of plates. IMHO, roverman.
Dyno Dave, Glad to hear from you. To set the record straight as per my conversations with Joe his recollection of the conversation and mine differing matters not in the least mine is the true and correct version! My phone conversations are automatically recorded and stored. if you would like to hear the exact conversations we had i would be glad to provide them for you, i highly regard Mr Shermans skills and achievements as well as his contributions to the developments made that have carried over and become mainstream in chevy stroker conversions on and on. As for geometry the T.A. performance roller setup is achieving great sucsess and acolades in the Australian rover world where they are and have been taking the rover/leyland engine to amazing performance and longevity heights. I felt i needed to address this miscommunication between myself and Mr. Sherman as with your post it brings into question my integrity, as ive said my only issue was his lack of customer support and overly rude deameanor demanding money. He went on and on about not seeing any money and we will see how this kit pans out, also i was told he had only sold one. This forum deserves truth and open sharing of experiences of such. I have had good experiences with any communications on this forum. The parts we chose to build our engines and their resulting outcomes is something we all learn from so communicating our results is just good for all of us. I do wish i had the good fortune to have spoken to you rather than Mr. Sherman and maybe i would be running your setup on my engine. i went with T.A. because of their customer care/support and the Proven quality of their system. No hard feelings from me im not the onw who lost the sale. Best regards
Jim,
The basic kit, which includes the adaptor plates, studs and counter sunk mounting bolts is 289.00. As of today,I have 3 left in stock but based on recent conversations, I may be down to 1 by the end of this week. More on the way, my next production run is bigger.
If you would like to talk to me about this and other kit options, send me a personal message with your contact info.
Thanks for your interest
Dave
Mike,
We remember seeing non screw-in studs pull out in cast iron heads in the old days and valve float was widely believed to be the culprit. It is also possible that the studs were over torqued causing thread damage. This is not very common and is more likely to show up under extreme race conditions.
You never see this happen on street motors or even week end warriors.
We used stock Buick valve covers with one gasket and had no clearance issues. But it could be a problem with some covers depending on the baffles. It may be possible to eliminate the baffle under the cover to gain clearance and use a breather cap with a nipple for a PCV hose to the PCV valve.
Dave
Terry
First let me start be saying that I very much wish I had been able to speak with you. I have known Joe a long time and naturally I might be a little bias. It is hard for me to determine exactly what the circumstances were during the time you called (there have been a lot of calls) , but some kits were sold and not yet shipped because we were waiting for custom ground cams from Comp Cams to arrive. I know that there was an issue with ordering the wrong rocker arm ratio, but I believe it was a different person.
Anybody who is in business knows that there were times when they didn't handle a situation or customer as well as they should have and Joe is no exception. I can understand how a person might become impatient and abrasive with customers at times if they have been dealing with the public for as long as Joe has. Regardless, it still should not happen and I apologize for any miss treatment. In all fairness to Joe, I have to take most of the blame for not having more product ready to ship and putting Joe in the middle of this situation.
Regarding TA's shaft system, Correct me if I am wrong, but their shaft rocker system for the 215/300/340 retails for $900.00, not including push rods and lifters. Both systems, shaft or stud, would require aftermarket tubular push rods and likely new lifters. With my system you have a choice of rockers, even stock stamped steel (still more durable than original with better oiling ) if you are on a budget. The rockers used on the magazine motor have large trunions, are made of 8650 Chromemoly steel and are considerably stronger and stiffer than aluminum rockers. Even with these high-end rockers our kit price is less.
We offer kits with custom ground cams using the latest lobe profiles and will spec out an optimal grind for a customers combination. I know the TA shaft rockers are a quality piece, but they offer no performance advantage over stud mounted rockers, especially if you use high strength and ultra stiff Chromemoly steel rockers like Comp.'s Ultra Pro Magnum.
I would like to speak with you personally. If you are open to it, send me a personal message with your phone no. and a good time to call.
Thanks
Dave