Wiring went well... not finished, but easily would have been if I hadn't switched to working on the brakes.
A friend came over to help so while I had the 2nd set of hands (or feet in this case), we decided to fill & bleed the brakes. Since I didn't have any leaks when I did the clutch, I was expecting good things. Well, probably 1/2 of my brake fittings leak. About the time we'd get one to stop, another one would start leaking. Very frustrating. I was confident the leaks were from the flares I'd made so I replaced a couple lines with pre-flared lines -- they were longer than needed so I had to put some extra bends in them but at least the factory flares wouldn't leak -- or so I thought. Some of those leak too. I even put a new T in on one thinking the flared part in there was damaged (brass T/steel lines) but still leaked. The only good news is neither of the bubble flares I made for the brake master leak. And, none of the AN fittings leak. It's only the 45* inverted flares that leak -- of course, there are a bunch of those!
Not sure what to do at this point so going to finish up some other stuff & make some calls to see if there's a local shop that will do the brake lines for me w/o breaking the bank.
Other suggestions welcome.
Rob
Rob,
It takes a better mechanic than me to replace all the brake lines on a restoration. I've tried it several times and the leaks I create can never be fixed - without a guy who knows his stuff. Then he just has to almost start all over again to fix my mistakes.
Good luck in finding such a mechanic ! He is worth his weight in gold and may bill you accordingly.
Wishing you much luck with the most difficult part of a rebuilding project.
Keep them on the track
phillip g
Rob, bad news but I'm sure you can fix it. Just a thought, did you use new flare nuts with the new lines or reuse the nuts from the old MG lines? The flare nuts for bubble flares will not support a 45 degree flare properly and vice versa the nut has to match the type of flare. Second the 45 degree flares have to be double flared or the flange won't be thick enough to be properly seated by the backing nut. I figure you probably already knew this stuff, but just in case it was all I could come up with since the bubble flares you made sealed fine.
Good ideas Bill. Used new flare nuts for 45* inverted. I got all the brake line from the local AutoZone -- it has a dark green epoxy or powder coat finish on it. One of the pieces I remade was plain steel & it seems to be holding. I'm beginning to wonder if the line (or combination of the line & flaring tool I have) are what's causing the problem. I think I'm going to get another piece of the plain, unfinished steel line replace another section & see if it holds... But, I think I'm going to finish everything else first.
Rob, the first Bucket I plumbed leaked so bad I kept pie pans under the connections. I flared and re-flared, practiced and did it again. The brakes will punish you until they feel you've suffered enough and then by some stroke of luck they will give you a break, pun intended. After fabricating brakes on a number of these things and making countless double flares I still have no idea what the secret is, but my bucket has been on the road for five years now and hasn't dripped a drop since. I haven't plumbed my GT yet and to be truthful I'm not looking forward to it because I know I'll spend some sleepless nights before it thinks I've suffered enough. I'm pretty sure it's all done with mirrors or maybe it's just plain magic.
Advice from me might not mean much, but DON'T skimp on a good flaring tool, particularly if you're using pricey synthetic fluid. Get your hands on as good a one as you can and spend some time in front of a TV with scrap brake lines. After five years it's paid off but I still get a hemorrhage occasionally!!
Rob,
Like Paul said, a good flaring tool is important. I was using a sustandard tool on my project and had more leaks than I expected. All the leaks were corrected by further tightening of the connections. Obviously, there's a limit to how much you want to torque these down to, but keep in mind, you'll probably never disassemble them again and you want it done. What I'm trying to say is, are you sure you have all the culprits tight tight?
Ken
Rob,
I can only think of one other thing that hasn't been addressed:
When you tightened the nuts, how were you holding your mouth? Was your tongue stuck out the left side or the right? You know you have to hold your mouth right to get the proper torque on those lines.
; ) Looking forward to seeing you car in INDY!
Dan B
I've tightened quite a bit but will tighten some more to see if that helps -- can't get worse (I think there's a leak on at least one end of each section of pipe).
LOL Dan... all I can say is whatever way I was holding my mouth wasn't right. Tongue was moving along the lines of $*@& son of a $*#&@!
Rob, as I understood it you were having trouble with the British bubble flares? Those use a flare nut which has a section on the end with no threads, about 3/16" long. Take the nut before flaring and make sure it will turn by hand all the way in to the seat. Often the end of the nut itself gets flared out from over tightening and this will cause trouble so do this check every time. Then on the flare itself, prepare the end of the line carefully, removing any burrs and smoothing the end in order to get a clean, defect free bubble. Finally, make sure that the finished bubble has the hole properly centered and is symetrical, with no flat spots or bulges. Do all of that and it should seal properly. I've made many flares this way over the years and rarely have problems with leakage but the devil is in the details so take your time with it.
JB
Actually Jim, the bubble flares I made aren't leaking at all. There's only 2 of those (at the master cylinder). It's the 45* inverted flares that are leaking. I'm my flares aren't perfect because I had a T with 2 of the 3 ports leaking. After replacing the 2 leaking lines with new lines that had "factory" formed flares on them I still had leaks. Next step was to remove the T itself & inspect it -- sure enough the cones on the inside of the two ports that were leaking had been deformed (mashed down a bit part way down the cone). I replaced the T with a new one, but still have leaks -- don't know if the deformed T damaged the factory flares.
1st step will be to tighten even more. If that doesn't work, next step will be to replace both the T & the lines at the same time to see if that solves the problem. If that doesn't work I'll have to take it to someone who knows what they're doing!
Rob, I can't address bouble flares because I haven't done one. All I've done is inverted double flares and they take a bit of practice. Eventually you'll get where you can look at them and tell if they're going to work, well, a lot of the time anyway. Jim is right, sometime you just have to tighten them until your eyes cross, but you can tighten a really bad flare and it won't help, still, try anyway, what have you got to lose!. Probably everyone on this site has been through this, some more than once, and will tell you to keep your head up, it will get better.
"P"
Instead of just tightening them more, back them off and then retighten. Do this a few times for each fitting and see if it helps.
Steve
I must be doing something right because my Harbor Freight flaring tool has made many leak proof flares over the last few years. In fact, I just made several lines for a "C" and none leaked. There are a couple of tricks I use to ensure a good flare.
1) I found that use of a secondary C-clamp near the work to keep the clamp halves from spreading during the flaring process.
is required
2) To Jims point, the end has to be flat and burr free and then I found that lubrication of the bubble flaring tool helps keep the flare even/centered - if the tool/tube is dry during the flare forming process, I found the incidence of poor flares much higher .
Graham, though our flaring tool is a MAC, we too use a lot of Harbor Freight stuff. I didn't think to suggest it but we do exactly as you described and get about the same percentage of pass/fail flares. The distance the tube protrudes from the face of the tool is also important. "P"
I guess I've been lucky over the years, never had any leaks, but I've had to redo some flares that cracked in the tool etc. I was lucky enough to be taught how to flare lines by the mechanics in my dad's dealership back in the 60s. As Paul says the distance the tube protrudes from the flaring tool clamp is critical. Here's a link to a pretty good description of the process with a good photo of that measurment. http://www.carcraft.com/howto/50919/index.html
One tip I was given as a kid was to lubricate the end of the tube by dipping it in some brake fluid. That acts as just enough of a lubricant and won't contaminate the lines in any way either.
Coated gree fittings are metric, brass color or adonize brass color are standard flare whic is 45 degree.
AN flare is 37 degree. Also some green color fittings have a shoulder in them and will never seat correctly unless you have the proper recieving end.
Overtighten double flare (45's) will distord the flare thus making it leak during bleeding or when you apply heavy pedal force to stop. It is a safety issue.
Tighten correct fitting until it seats and turn about 1/8" that should be enough to make it seat properly.
Bill, YOU SAID IT, as an airplane guy I should have thought to mention that, but didn't; My Bad! "P"
Ed,
You're using flare nut wrenches right? If not that could be part of the problem.
Abbreviated from Wikipedia; Flare-nut wrench - it has a narrow opening just wide enough to allow the wrench to fit over the tube. This allows for maximum contact on plumbing nuts, which are typically softer metals and therefore more prone to damage from open-ended wrenches.
Standard open end wrenches can distort the fittings when you tighten them and the distortion can get worse it you over tighten trying to stop the leak.
I feel you pain. I connected my clutch hydraulic lines and got the clutch working but have two leaks. One where two purchased fittings connect and one at the flexible hose connection at the slave. The double flare I made at the master cylinder does not leak. Go figure.
Steve
Good info Steve. I do have flare nut wrenches but didn't always use them. In some of the tight spaces, my smaller open ends were easier to use. I'm surprised a standard wrench would do more damage than rounding over the corners, but at this point I'm ready to try any & all tips when I'm able to get back to the brakes -- hoping that will be next weekend.
I haven't posted an update in quite a while -- after the brake lines were leaking & I ended up having surgery this summer was hard to get back at it. But, I've been doing little things off & on & pretty much finished the wiring -- went to put the dash back on with the wiring & AC hoses, there wasn't enough room to get the dash back on... I'd never put it on with the gauges & AC vent hoses during mock-up and it never occurred to me that it'd be that tight. Basically had two problems -- one was by the time the wiring harness & gauges were in, there wasn't room for the AC vent hoses to fit between the back of the gauges & the AC evap box. Other problem was the hoses were completely blocking the center stud that holds the dash to the cowl...
No problem, I'd cut the hole in the firewall like Ted does so figured I'd just move the evap box back... wrong. Just moving it back puts the defrost vents on the evap box about 1/4" below the middle wiper mechanism. Hard to tell from the pic, but there's no way to get a hose on it & make the bend.
2010-11-06ACDilemma.jpg
So, I had to do a little modification to lower it down. Have to weld the bottom plate in & will have to take that slow to make sure I don't over heat & burn the paint but luckily The pieces I'm welding to are all box sections inside the car -- close to the firewall tunnel area, but not on the back side of paint :)...
2010-11-06ACDilemmaFix2.jpg2010-11-06ACDilemmaFix5.jpg
And, just to show a glimpse of the other odds & ends coming together, here are some more pics... these were taken with my phone's camera so the quality isn't great but you get the idea...
2010-11-06ProgressPictures4.jpg 2010-11-06ProgressPictures.jpg
2010-11-06ProgressPictures3.jpg
Rob, that photo of your dash looks awesome! I'm having the same issues with the Vintage air and the ducts too. I need to pull out my gauges which barely have enough room, and work with the vent hoses again, maybe plug off one of the vents in the middle that I will not use.
Everything is so tight in these builds!
Hope you feel better to work more on your build!
Rob
Set backs are never fun But You are getting close:)
If you can post a better picture of the Dash that would be great.
Cant wait to see the finished product or at least pictures
Hope everything is getting back to Normal from the Surgery
Luckily I have a mechanic friend that just bought a new hydrolic pump flaring tool that he said he will use for me when Im ready to run my brake lines. I feel ur frustration! lol.
Nice job on the seats, Rob!
Rob,
Let's see some updated photos of that car of yours! I'm dying to see what it looks like since your last photo update.
Cheers,
Chris
I'll see about getting some better pics of the dash -- but right now I'm focused on getting the AC mod burned in. Going slow to not get it too hot & mess up the paint and noticed this morning I'm running low on mig gas but should have plenty to finish that job this weekend.
Have to take the kids to a paintball party & then my older son is marching in his HS band (football team is in the playoffs). So it'll be later tonight before I can finish it up.
Rick -- thanks for the comment on the seats; means a lot coming from the master! The foam seems too soft on the bolsters to me; they deform pretty easily. I'll likely rework them but after the car is on the road.
Calvin - thanks for the dash comment. I spent a lot of time deciding how to lay it out & what vents & indicator lights to use. I didn't have the vents when I sent the car for paint so I cut the center section gauge & vent holes after paint... of course the pilot bit fell out on my hole saw on the last hole & the hole saw buggered the paint. For now I've just put some touch up on it, but I'll have to re-do that too -- again, after the car is running. Dash goes on with 2 plugs for all the wiring, 3 nuts at the top & 2 screws at the bottom so it's pretty easy to remove/replace. The piece holding the radio is just temporary; it'll get replaced with something that is shaped to fit nicer.
re: The foam seems too soft on the bolsters to me; they deform pretty easily. I'll likely rework them but after the car is on the road.
You'll need to disassemble them....but it will be worth the time and effort.
Build up the bolsters with foam, cotton wadding, and duct tape. You can get them as stiff as you want...additionally, this should save some wear and tear on the bolsters (you've seen how Fiero seats can wear.)
Again...NICE JOB!
For the seats you could always try the 2" memory foam mattress topper material glued on top of the stock foam..
I love that dash Rob. Nice work.
Spent some time on the car this weekend. Started testing the wiring harness, keyless ignition, etc. Car now starts using the start button on the dash. It needs adjusting but runs pretty smooth & w/o the sputtering & popping through the carb like it was doing before I noticed the big vacuum port on the back of the carb that wasn't plugged - doh! I have to admit it's cool to be able to start the car using the finished harness (prior to today I'd only fired it using some temporary wires & aligator clips to power the ignition & fuel pump).
So far most of the rest of the harness is working. Problems to sort through right now are
* front left park/blinker isn't lighting
* tail lights aren't coming on at all
* wiper moter isn't working on high or low speed.
I haven't tested optional stuff like radio, windows, etc. & didn't run it long enough for the fan to kick in so don't know about them yet.
Oh, & I realized I forgot to wire the inertia switch back into the fuel pump circuit.
But, most of it's working & the only items I really want to sort out before getting back to the brakes are the tail lights, front left blinker, and inertia switch {& I'm going to wire in a manaul cut-off switch too while I'm doing that). Hope to sort those out durnig the evenings this week so I can get the brakes at least partially reworked next weekend.
Nice work Rob! You are sooooo close.
Got back on the brakes while waiting on some wiring parts. Borrowed a little better flaring tool -- same style but a bit heavier bar & yoke and a reamer that looks like a counter sink drill bit that's on the end of a screwdriver handle. I also watched a few YouTube "how to" videos too. I made a few adjustments to my technique based on the advise from some of you guys & things I noticed in the videos. Changes I made were:
1. Used the reamer in the borrowed kit -- made a noticeable difference; not only cleaned the hole, it also lightly camphered the inside.
2. Cranked down a lot harder on the yoke and backed off & retightened 2-3 times on each flare to burnish it.
3. Used a finer file to lightly campher the outside edge.
4. Lightly filed the ridge that formed on the outside of the flare where there was a slight gap between the two bars (even fully tightened down, there was still a slight gap between the bars & I noticed the flare nut would wobble a little on it. It might flatten when tightening the nut but I gave it two or three light passes with a fine file.)
I did the front & tested it by putting an inverted flare plug on the rear line output of my proportioning valve. Seems to be holding with no leaks (6 flares). I ran out of time before finishing the back brakes but this is way better than my last attempt!! Probably won't get to finish untill after Christmas but it was a good way to finish a day.
Great news Rob. Sometimes it just takes some perseverance.
JB
Finished the back brakes today so now brakes are done. Also pulled & reinstalled the intake manifold to fix the oil leak at the back. If I get a few hours tomorrow I'm going to reassemble & reinstall the windshield.
Sorry this is too late to help, Rob. I just found out about this brake line last weekend.
Our local club had a January tech session (in lieu of a drive) at the home of our newly elected President (we now have our first real Brit as club Prez). His "trick" for great flares that do not leak was using Cunifer™ brake line from Fedhill. Great stuff!
http://fedhillusa.com/
He using it on his Austin Healey 100M that he is re-restoring after near destruction from a fire.
http://www.britcars.net/DavisP1.html
Rob, I also hope not to be too late but maybe It can help some else. We've used this NAPA bulk brake line (see photo) at my work for awhile now; it seems to be holding up pretty good to the salt equipment some vehicle carry and it also shapes like a dream. NAPA's part number and description can be read on the photo.
Jacques
Samsung12-2010-11030.jpg
Thanks guys -- brake lines are finished & holding with no leaks. When I re-did them I used a better flaring tool and also took Kelly's advice & really cranked down hard when forming the inverted flares -- even backed off & cranked down again about 3 times on each flare. Seems to have done the trick.
Didn't have enough time to put the windshield back together, but did clean out all the loose hardware, hoses, parts, tools, etc. -- and started the car up. I have stuff going on Mon & Tues but if I get home early enough on Weds or Thurs I'll be able take it on a quick test run.
From running it in the garage I can tell the timing is still off (remember I had to estimate TDC using a screwdriver to feel the piston). It sounds ok at idle but has light popping through the tail pipe when running at about 2k or so RPM. And, it's running rich (eyes started burning after a couple of minutes). But, it starts easy & that's good.
Carl and Jacques,
The cunifer brake line info you posted is near perfect timing for me. The next step on my conversion is brake lines and re doing my clutch line.
I've been looking at the fedhill web site on and off for a few weeks wondering if anyone here had ever tried their brake line. And I had read somewhere that NAPA had similar brake line but I couldn't find it on their web site. So, thanks for the info.
Steve