BritishV8 Forum

Hi All, This my first posting on this forum. Perhaps one of you has encountered this problem: I have a Rover SD1 3.5 liter engine, recently reconditioned with new bearings, rebuilt heads, etc. Once reassembled and ready to fire up, I charged the oiling system by spinning the oil pump with an electric drill. It looked like lots of oil coming through the rocker assemblies. I ran the pump for about 3 minutes let everything drain back into the sump overnight and ran the pump again the next morning. I reinstalled the distributor and the engine fired right up and I ran it for about 3 minutes at about 2000 RPM and then shut it down. After a cool down period, I started the car in the driveway, put it in gear to test the drive train and drove about 150 yards down the block
in first gear, 2500 RPM. As I returned to the driveway a large amount oil started dripping on the passenger side exhaust header from the breather port and the engine started making noises like the hydraulic lifters had bled down. The oil pressure gauge was under 5 pounds at that point. It was at 30PSI when cool. I tried the car again the next day with the same result. Fearful of damaging the internals I shut it down. I have since added a new front timing cover and D&D high volume pump kit. I get 40PSI at cool and low RPMs and the same clattering at 3000RPM and a hot engine. I searched the Forums and saw information about making sure the rocker arm assemblies were correctly assembled, mine are. I have 5 quarts of oil in the engine, but can't figure out why the lifter bleed down while the engine is running. ANYONE like to give me their input? I
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Ken, Ok assuming you have cam bearings installed/clearanced  correctly ,and same for lifters, to me, sounds like rocker assembly problem. Oil holes on "bottom" of shafts ? Bore clearance and side clearance good ? Maybe install a "topless", valve cover, to see while running ? Lubing through push rods ? I'm thinkin lifters will ,natually bleed-down at 5 psi. Just not enough press. Push rods correct length and radii ? Good Luck, roverman.

Welcome to the forum!
Nice photos! Very tidy work...
Are those Revolution wheels? They look great.
We're going to need a How It Was Done on this car!

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It sounds to me like you're doing all the right things. Your logic seems perfectly solid.

Question: when you changed the front cover and added the oil pump kit, did you dump the oil pan and get a real good look at the oil? That would hopefully let you rule out bearing damage. If you find debris in the oil pan...  

Elaborating on what Art said... I'm thinking that even badly worn out rocker arm assemblies probably wouldn't account for both the surplus oil on your exhaust and the low oil pressure / lifter clatter.  I would carefully inspect the rocker assemblies, and repeat that inspection while flowing oil through them (with your drill motor...)  What symptom would be consistent with a cracked or broken (e.g. defective or over-torqued/crushed) pedestal, for example?  

Good luck... and keep us posted!

Don't know about in the US but over here, many people have had problems with the currently available rockers and shafts in that the tolerances were far too large allowing a lot of oil to escape and flood the valve chest areas with the resultant loss of oil pressure.

If you are getting enough oil in the rocker chest that causes it to escape from a breather then I would strip and examine the rocker gear to check the tolerances.

With the Rover V8 in good condition there should only be a relative small amount of oil that escapes from the rocker assemblies hoprfully it is nothing more serious, it shouldn't be crankcase pressuriation as you seem to have the PCV system in place.

Is that a SD1 engine? or are you just using P5/6 valve covers.

Kevin

You say a lot of oil from the breather port, which breather port? Is it possible all the oil is staying up top of the engine and not draining back? Did you fit debris screens in the valley. That may be a concern if the mesh is too small.

Alan

Thanks to Art, Curtis, Kevin and Alan for the responses.  Everything in this engine in new or reconditioned and all the bores are clean. I did check the pan for debris, but only found the tiniest trace of swarf there. Thanks for the positive comments about the car. Yes, Revolution wheels. It is an SD1 block and Rover rebuilt heads and P5/6 powder coated valve covers. The rear breather port on the passenger side had a filter only on it when it leaked out the oil. I have since placed a PCV valve connected to the air filter base and no more oil has leaked out. No debris screens. I had thought that maybe the outlets from the heads were not allowing enough oil to drain back to the valley area, but they are large and clear.

I spoke with Mark LeGrou at D&D Motors today and he posited that the pushrods might be rubbing on the
bore openings in the heads since there is some tolerance for movement of the rocker/pedestal assembly.
Gravity will pull the rocker assemblies down during attachment, so, at Mark's suggestion, loosened and then
re-tightened the rocker pedestal bolts while prizing the assemblies toward the intake manifold. On visual inspection, there appears to be gaps between the pushrods and the bore openings now, whereas before there were some rods appearing to make contact with the bores. I am also going to change the oil to Castrol Syntec 20w50 and add some ZDDP additive before restarting the motor. I will update the forum tomorrow. Thanks, again for the input. I have spent a number of hours at the site studying other Rover 3.5/T5 early MGB conversions. I purchased the car as a project where the previous owner have done all the body and mount modifications and collected all the parts needed to complete the car. If I were to do this again I would buy the 302 Ford kit and go Ford since the parts are a lot easier to source and the power plant is more robust and bit less "exotic". Ah, well, Hindsight is....

Fresh engine and synthetic oil are not allways a good Idea, Syn oil is a superb lube, but desgned for coated bores and thin rings, run a fresh engine on this and the bores WILL glaze

I think Ian has it right, the blow-by could be from the rings not being seated. I used regular Mobil motor oil to break in the (used) rings on my Ford 223. It took a little time, but the rings are now seated. You'll have blow-by until the rings seat well.

I'm not a fan of Castrol Syntec, except for use in a MG 1950cc 4 cyl. engine. The MG engine likes the extra viscosity. I tried using Castrol Syntec 20w-50 in a Toyota engine (in the summer) and the engine labored with that oil. Switched to (used) Mobil1, and that made a big difference.

I'd use a real synthetic like Mobil1 or Royal Purple after you've broken in the rings.

I changed the oil to Valvoline VR1 20w50 Racing Oil and added a 15.00 dollop of ZDDPplus(4 oz).

Fired it up and there was the sweet sound of liftera lightly clicking the cam shaft. After a warm up period
at 2000RPM, only one lifter started making noise at about 195F water temp. It may have a sticky ball check valve, so I will give it a rap with a rubber mallet tomorrow. Straight pipes with cherry bombs on it right now, and I am sure the neighbors appreciate me not running it too long in the early evening. I still can't get the Perma Cool adjustable fan switch to work, even after a talk with their tech guy this morning. Seems like every step forward with this project brings another step back somewhere else. I'm getting to the "Push-it-out-on-the-street-with-a-For-Sale-sign" stage. It does look great sitting in the garage, though!
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Ken, first let me say that's a great looking car and I'm sure you'll get much enjoyment out of it once you have this sorted out.

Right, so let's get on with it then. All Buick V8's (Rover) of this era need extra attention paid to the oiling system. Just slapping one together with stock bits is a roll of the dice. (Not that I'm saying you did that mind you.) Everything from one end to the other needs careful attention, starting with the bearings. Main and rod clearances must be held tight to around .001" and this has been repeatedly born out by many Buick enthusiasts building street and race engines. I don't know why it isn't more well publicized on the British forums but that is where the process begins. Control tolerances, minimize leakage, improve pump efficiency, increase the pickup passage diameter, port the pump housing, install a "Booster Plate", forgo the high volume modification (It adds stress to an already highly loaded distributor gear and leads to failures, and has been repeatedly proven unnecessary if the other oiling mods are done.) Make certain cam bearing clearances are minimal, be certain lifter fit is close, use good rocker shafts, and finally, if flow to the rockers is excessive, use restrictions to reduce flow to the top end.

I'm quite sure all of the oiling mods have been detailed on this forum in the past, it would probably be a good idea to search for them. You can also find them on the V8Buick website.

I do not know the state of your engine clearances and such, but much can be done without tearing down the motor. In particular the pick-up passage and porting the front cover can yield very good results. You can pick and choose which mods you want to implement. Hope that helps.

JB

Jim, Thanks for the input. I did not assemble the bottom end of the engine. The previous owner purchased the short block and was assured all was done right with the intent of a long engine life. The lifters were new when I installed them as were the pushrods. The camshaft was new and the cam bearings looked excellent and spec'd out fine. I think I am down to one noisy lifter which may have a faulty or debris filled check valve.
If by "booster plate" you mean adding 1/4" to the oil pump housing and longer gears, that is what has been done. I now have 40 PSI when cool and 20-25 when hot at idle.

I'll let it sit for a few days and go step by step with my British friend who was a British car mechanic for 40 years.

Cheers,

Ken

Ken, the booster plate is nothing more than a steel spacer that goes between the housing and cover. It stiffens the pump cavity and provides a new wear surface. Pump gear end clearance should be set using shims to about .001"-.0015". In practical terms this means as tight as possible without dragging. The ports into and out of the pump should be smoothed and rounded, enlarged where practical. The 5/8" V6 Buick pick-up tube should be used. The pick-up passage in the block should be enlarged to 5/8" using a piloted drill, this can possibly be done in the car, but the pan must be removed. Drill from the front and the bottom and carefully remove all chips. The passages in the cover can be enlarged and the corners radiused.

The gears and spacer plate you installed are known to cause distributor gear failures so just be aware that this could be a future problem. In addition, the spacer plates I've seen are not a close fit to the gears so I really don't know how much you gain by using them. If the rest of the engine is tight they are not needed or wanted. It would be a good idea to remove the pan and intake and pressurize your oil system and look for excessive flow around the bearings, cam, lifters, and top end. This can be done various ways, either using the engine's oil pump or an external accumulator. If you have the pan off you might as well plastigage a couple of bearings while you're in there just so you generally know what you've got. Common practice is to set bearing clearances at .002" but this does not work well with these engines as it causes excessive loss of pressure and flow. If your bearings are loose, you should be able to get +.001" undersized bearings to tighten them up. Otherwise you'll just have to rely on band-aids.

Cam bearings are a known problem area. Buick honed the shells in place (not sure of Rover practice) and the bearing bores can vary by as much as .005", usually undersized. In practice this means that either sloppy bearings or hand scraping has been the approach to getting the cam to fit, both with bad results. So it's something you want to have a look at, at the very least by pressurizing the system and looking for leakage. Lifters are on the market which are a less than optimal fit in the bores, again causing leakage. Something else to look for.

I believe Rover never upgraded to pushrod oiling of the rockers, so if there is excessive leakage around the rockers the only remedies are new (tight) rocker assemblies or restricting orifices in the supply passages. Sorry, I can't suggest an orifice size.

JB

Rover never fitted hollow poshrods, even the last of the 4.6s were fed by the rocker pedistal,
Have you fitted roller rockers?, these should run a restrictor  to prevent excess oil escaping thru the rockers

Intimidating-yes ? I don't know how one would get , first rate cleaning, at rebuild time with-out removing old cam bearings ? Yes intalling new ones, and being good on bore sizes is a ,"crap shoot".What to do ? I modified a used-cast cam, with full size journals, by cutting a single, positive lead flute, in each journal, indexed 180 deg on each successive journal. This works somewhat like a reamer, to resize new bearings. This will NOT give a "mirror" finish ! Block standing on end, flood of oil and,"slow" feed rate. If you want a better finish, send it out for "align boring $$". Only the "skilled", need apply. Good Luck, roverman.

Yes, this is a known problem and Art's remedy is one of the better ones. What happened is that as the production line tooling wore the bores got smaller, and rather than change out or adjust the tooling frequently enough to maintain precise size, they just ran them, pressed in the inserts, and then align honed the softer bearing material to finish size. The correct remedy is, as Art mentioned, align honing the cam bearing bores which are usually undersized more or less. But since that probably wasn't done, standard bearing inserts would have made the cam tight at install time and the remedy was to either use oversized inserts (larger bore) or more commonly to simply hand scrape the bearings until the cam fit. As you can imagine this leads to hemorrhaging of oil once under pressure and the hotter and therefore thinner the oil is, the worse the leak.

JB

Oil Starvation may be a mis-diagnosis here. I do have 40PSI, hot at 2000+RPM and 20-25PSI hot at idle.
The lifter noise is not present in any degree until the water temp gauge reaches 195F. Now it seems to be isolated to the #3 lifter, pushrod, rocker area. I am thinking this is a pushrod binding on the pushrod oriface/galley/bore/hole in the head. Visually, it looks very close when cold. I am going to tackle this noise issue from the top down, firstly reaming out or mildly chamfering the hole/s in the head. Dammit! That means removing the heads.

On a side note, there must be some blowby from the new rings not yet being seated as there seems to be higher crankcase pressurization than one would expect. I am getting oil all the way up on the air filter base plate and a bit dripping down into the carbs causing a nice smoky exhaust at times.

Ken, sounds like you need (2) kinds ? One to suck-up metal shavings, when you have vacum nozzle under the hole your enlarging? Easier to pull just intake, than 2 heads ? Other vacum from egr. pump to help the rings seal ?  Good Luck, roverman.

Oil pressure should be 10 psi per 1000 rpm hot. 20 at idle is just fine. Bear in mind, these aluminum motors do tend to transmit more lifter noise than an iron engine and sometimes chasing that tapping lifter is just an exercise in frustration and parts buying. Frequently what is taken for lifter tap is actually an acceptable level of normal engine noise. I know when all is quiet except for that one lifter it can be quite maddening, and I hope you find a simple solution. If you do please inform us. But bear in mind that if you get to where that is the largest concern, it really is something you can take your time with.

As for the blowby, hopefully that will improve as the rings wear in. There is a rather good article on pcv in the newsletter section that could help.

JB

Might be also worth checkng for exhaust manifold leaks, they can provide some deceiving noises, bit of a tap is often heard and mistaken for something far worse

Update: After boring out the openings in the head that the push rods pass through I spun up the oil pump to
inspect oil flow to the rocker assemblies. To my amazement, oil was squirting out from the gaps in the split washers under the bolt heads. After doing some research, I discovered that Rover used shouldered bolts to center the pedestals and prevent oil from coming out the top of the pedestals. Not knowing where to source
the shouldered bolts, I bored out some washers for a tight fit under the 5/16" bolt heads. Voila! No more leakage. Oil pump pressure is 40PSI cold, 25-28 hot and no more oil coming up through the PCV hoses into the carb. However, I still have what sounds like a collapsed or bled down lifter clacking away after the engine
water temp gauge reaches 180 to 190F. On startup, the engine sounds great; very little noise except for the subtle clicking of the valve train. I have ordered a set of Rhoades lifters. I am hoping that will solve the problem. The Lunati units look perfectly new as does the Elgin cam surfaces.

Here's hopin'.....

Ken, Yes Rhodes lifters will definatey cure the problem of "subtle clicking of the valve train", LOL. Unless your running a pretty hot cam, the "tickies", will probably make, less power, of course the engine will "sound" wilder. Good Luck, roverman.

UPDATE: I finally got the Rhoads lifters installed. I had to pull the engine to replace the transmission input shaft bushing and shim out the hydraulic throwout bearing. I also re-shimmed the motor mounts so I could use the original steering shaft. NO MORE LIFTER CLACKING NOISE!!!!!!! So, that problem is solved.
However, after warming the car up, driving it a block and re-setting the idle in the driveway, a massive amount of oil began leaking from the left side of the engine. At first,I thought the rear main had failed, but, though I can't see the source, it appears that oil is coming down from somewhere on the driver's side of the block under the head. Any thoughts on the source or cause?

Valve cover gasket, dip stick, corners of the valley pan where the rubber seals butt up against the heads.

probabe source, as Todd says, the rubber seal under the lifter gasket/cover needs a dab of silicon on its ends, another possible source from that area is on some engines a small breather hole drilled into the back of bock around the lifter valley area, that can fall out and cause a big leak.

Todd and Ian, thanks for your responses.

When the leak occured, the PCVs, connection hoses and air filter were off the engine. I guess the crankcase
pressurized to the point of burping oil out the dipstick hole in the block. My dipstick did not have a seal at the top of the tube, so I fashioned one out of rubber hose, but I didn't successfully seal the dipstick tube to engine block dipstick aperture. After reading some posts on other sites and this site, it was pretty clear that was the cause of the oil leak.

Cheers!

To stop the dip stick poping out, weld or braize a small hook onto the tube about 2" from the top of the tube, and a similar one to the dipstick shroud, this allows you to hook a tension spring to the stick and tube stopping it popping out. shape the hooks so one end of the spring is used to retain the spring, and other made so its easy to pop the spring off when its time to check levels

"When the leak occured, the PCVs, connection hoses and air filter were off the engine."

Did you have the holes plugged?

I finally got the Rhoads lifters in, replaced the silicone rubber valve cover seals with cork(that's where the left side engine leak originated as the seal would bow inside the cover as the cover bolts were tightened), pulled the engine and transmission to shim the HTOB, install a proper pilot shaft OilLite bearing, re-shim the motor mounts, align the drive train, and paint the headers with ceramic paint. It's all back together and ran for about an hour before the Lucas DLM8 died. I found an old Buick 300 distributor on EBay for 24.00, installed it, adjusted the points gap, reset the timing and the car runs well. It has 60# oil pressure at cold start, 40# while running down the road and 20# at idle. However, I still have more valve train noise than expected. A mechanic friend thinks there may be too much valve lash. So, I may have some overworked rocker arms or shortened push rods on a couple of cylinders. I was thinking that if I have to go at this issue again, I may as well consider roller rockers and new pushrods. As usual, I can't seem to locate either. Any recommendations?
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Rhoades lifters are noisier than regular lifters. See if you have shims under your rocker stands. Maybe thinner shims or remove completely. When valve is closed you should barely be able to turn pushrod between your fingers. Should have about .020 preload. Maybe try Smith's adjustable pushrods. Are your rockers in good shape?

Ken, if your still running "Rhoads", they will always tick. I'd shoot for approx. .03" preload(cold), lessens as motor "grows". Lash caps are a "much" easier way to increase preload. Good Luck, roverman.

Valvetrain geometry on a shaft rocker design is a bear. I think it's usually a matter of getting the rocker-to-valve stem geometry set up using shims under the rocker stand, or lash caps, then installing the right length of pushrods.

I have 8 leftover Crane variable duration lifters left over from a Chevy project. I think the Crane design is quieter than the Rhodes design. I might use them on the exhaust lobes of a Crower 50229 cam in my Olds 215.

Thanks for the responses. The valve train noise I am referring to is a "clacking" sound; much louder than the lifter noise. We think it is excessive valve lash on ONE rocker/valve stem or a short pushrod.
On cold start there is no "clacking", just the nice Rhoads lifters clicking until the car warms up. It is not a continuous "clacking" as it goes away on deceleration and sometimes on acceleration. I have decided to take the car to a American Classics and Performance about 15 miles north in Petaluma. I hope to get the car up there this coming week.

Ken, If you can tolerate the oil splash, idling the engine with rocker covers removed, can be enlightening,I.E. bent push rod check, audible check and touch check. A skilled finger placed on top of each rocker, will tell the problem story. Push rods placed besides each other, between 2 straight edges, will help pin point short ones. Good Luck, roverman.

Very nice car, it is even in one of my favorite colors.  Even the hood scoop looks nice and I don't usually favor those.  Maybe you should just bring it to me.  :D

I have a Rover engine going in that is a new build also and we are getting closer so I will be sure to keep your post handy if we run into issues.  Of course I am praying for no issues.  Really love the car though.

Art, Thanks for the post.

The latest is not much different than my previous noisy valve train issue. I took the intake and valley cover off, pulled the rocker assemblies. On inspecting the pushrods, it was clear that 8 of the sixteen were contacting the rims of the holes in the heads, two were quite polished in a band around the shafts. I bored out the holes in the heads by another 1/16". A preload measurement showed it to be around
.04"; right in the middle of spec: .02-.06". On visual inspection everything else looked excellent and new, as it is. After reassembly, installing a new Pertronix distributor and crossing my finger it started right up, sounded
good and responded delightfully to the throttle on my two block test drive. Then, the temp got to 190F and
the dreaded "clacking" returned, only louder this time!!!

I am taking the car to a mechanic I know who builds race engines here in town. Hopefully, he can get it sorted out. I am past the scope of my limited mechanical abilities and experience.

Michelle, Thanks for the compliments on my car. Yeah, I think it looks good, too. I put the GT350 hood scoop on as I needed something to cover the air cleaner and it would have been on a Mustang of the era. I cut it down in length by about 4" and pop riveted it on. Gives the car a "racy" look, though I doubt I will ever get on the track with it. Good luck with your Rover build.

If I ever do this again:

•Fuel injected Ford 302
•Fast Cars front suspension with 302 engine mounts
•No fender flares
•Super clean, no rust repair needed Late MGB and do
the chrome bumper conversion
•BW T5 WC transmission, again
•Chevy S10 rear end

However, I probably won't do another MGB V8 conversion. I am enjoying driving my newly acquired,
1953 MG TD which has an MGB 1800cc engine, 4 speed transmission and tube axle rear end. The paint
is tired, the tuck and roll upholstery all wrong, but it looks good from 10 feet, drives great and gets lot's of
attention wherever I go.
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Ken, Did you reuse the old pushrods? Maybe one or more could have broken? That would make a heck of a clatter. I don't know why it would overheat unless the heads and/or intake manifold leaked. Did you retorque after warm up? Just trying to help you troubleshoot. I have had a few 215's,300 and 340 Buicks(similar).Also Buick V6's.

Is 190 F overheating ?  What deg. thermostat ? Visual  opening test, on the stove ? Oil pressure when that pesky clattering started again ? Jim, "It started right up and sounded good", not likely to have broken push rods. Ken, got an up-date?  roverman.

Am I missing something? I don't know how anyone could call 190F "overheating". That's a perfectly normal operating temperature for many of us, and I'm completely comfortable with that gauge reading. (It's my personal belief that most people worry way too much about coolant temperature and would be better off if they didn't even have that gauge.)  Modern oils are happy at that temp. Was there some other symptom? Steam or coolant escaping or blowing into the crankcase? Otherwise... I don't see any connection between coolant temp and clattering.

You guys are right, I didn't mean overheat,I meant the temp shouldn't be related to the clatter. Art, he said it got worse than ever after the 2 block test spin. I 'll have to reread my posts a little better. Been working  about 12- 12 hour shifts in a row,must be a little tired.

Jim, get some shut-eye, LOL. "These" motors tend to"open-up"more, than cast iron when , can I say, "warmish" ? Since oil throw-off increases to "square" of clearance increase, thats why I,asked about the oil pressure at clatter time-ok ? Jim, I'm glad ONE of us ,is rakin in the chips ?  roverman.

I did install used push rods, but carefully inspected them for damage and found none. I have since replaced the first set with a different used set with no change.
I downloaded a Jasper Engines Technical Bulletin about rocker arm noise due to "hardened pushrod cups being insecure in the rocker arm". The car is now at a garage being evaluated by a race car engine builder. He is stumped, so far, but is leaning toward a broken or warped piece of the upper valve train. The "clacking"
or clattering noise is consistent with the timing of one component in the engine revolution, so it doesn't sound like crank, rod or wrist pin racket. There was some suspicious swarf in the oil pan, so I may have a bigger problem. The engine's PO claimed he purchased a short block rebuild that was "blueprinted". I don't have any
paperwork to confirm it, so... Pig in a Poke, huh?

Update: The "swarf" turned out to be some fuzz, a bit of dried silicone scraping and some aluminum bits I drilled out of the heads. Nothing of serious consequence. My mechanic ran the motor from cold and it exhibited the same behavior; sounds great cold but when the temp reaches 190F a clatter-clack-not-quite-a-knock becomes audible and alarmingly loud. Oil pressure does not go below 18-20 pounds at hot idle and goes up to as high as 60 pounds at hot revving. The valve lash at idle was .006" or less at each valve stem head when hot. Rod ends, rod bearings and crank surfaces at the rods all look new on dis-assembly.

It is as though someone flipped a switch at 190F and started the mysterious, troubling engine noise. When the car is driven the noise disappers on deceleration, and sometimes at idle, reappears at acceleration, but not through the entire power band. In overdrive at 60MPH it will come and go with no discernible rhythm.

The mechanic is keeping the car for a while and has invited a couple of other skilled wrenchers to offer opinions before pulling the engine and tearing it down.

The saga continues.

Ken, one more time, finger on rockers? Stethiscope ? While clacking, pull, 1 plug wire, at a time. Automatic with sheetmetal flex plate ? End-play on crank/cam, ie. enough for/aft movement to cause noise ?  roverman.

Valve lash? with Rhoades lifters? Should be preload, there should be no lash clearance ever, these are hydraulics.

Alan

Ken, Does this motor have a"retainer plate" on cam ? Thrust button ? If cam is thrusting forward, 8 lifters will have"reduced "pre-load, and/or chain, sprocket/etc. may be hitting. Good Luck, roverman.

I took the car to a mechanic I know who had three other mechanics listen to it run. After a bunch of head scratchin' and a visit to a local cylinder head rebuilder, it was determined that there was a strong possibility that a valve seat was loosening when the cylinder head temp got to operating level. The head rebuilder had worked on numerous Rover heads with this problem. The steel seat would migrate when warm/hot and reseat when cool/cold. At any rate, the heads are in the shop. I should have word on Monday or Tuesday
June 21 or 22.

Here is the latest. The heads were disassembled, heated up and the seats and guides did not move when pressurized. I am not clear on the process, but I have no reason to doubt someone with a good deal of experience with head rebuilding when he says they are not the problem. Good news for the heads. Bad news is that the engine "clacking" noise may be coming from the block somewhere.The head rebuilder noticed that there were NO oil seals on top of the intake valves, so he is installing them.They will come back to me as "newly reconditioned".

A local Rover engine mechanic I know posits that it may be an elongated lifter bore as he has seen that on other Rover engines. That could account for the lifter being quiet when cold and then starting to rattle around in the bore when warm. Whatever it is, I have not gotten a solid diagnosis from 5 independent mechanics. At any rate, I am ready to chuck this power plant and go to plan B which is convert to a documented, warrantied, rebuilt Ford 302. At least then I can buy parts from just about any parts store in the US. The PO assured me this short block 3.5 Rover was blueprinted when it was rebuilt, but I now have serious doubts about it. Since I bought the project car two years ago, and he bought the short block in 2004, I just have to suck it up and move on. I will probably be parting out the engine, D&D bell housing, lightened flywheel, clutch assembly, etc., for sale on EBay.

Hey Ken,
Sounds like you've done the valve train thing to death. If this were in my shop I'd be having a real close look at your rods and pistons. A bent rod will make the noise that you are experiencing but should have shown up as a side load on the rod bearings. Or more probable is a wrist pin problem in the piston. Either the pin bore is worn or more likely damaged by a ham fisted installer. This will make the exact noise that you are hearing, quiet cold, loud on accel and quiet on decel. I go through this a lot on high boost turbo engines that detonate themselves right out the tailpipe. If you have the stock 3.5 pistons there is a good chance that a skirt is cracked or collapsed as well. Same noise different source.
 Hope thats more helpfull than depressing.
Fred
PS if you part it out we need to talk. My 907 headed rover v8 is almost ready to go and the lotus trans isnt going to like it.

Fred, Thanks for the post. The heads are still off the engine and it is still at the shop. I will be talking with the mechanic today. We have discussed the two problems you relate to in your post concerning wrist pins and pistons as the possible source of the noise. He has been reluctant to do a complete tear down, though he has had the main and rod bearing caps off to look for signs of wear and found none. The pistons are stock and appear the same vintage as the block. It may come down to a complete tear down, soon. Ken.

Ken, could it be the liners as in the article two posts down?

The liners are where they should be.

Just been reading this thread with interest, I used to have a classic car restoration business and MG's were our main stay, we normally had 10 to 15 in the shop at any one time, we also used to put lots and lots of the Rover V8 in these and other sports and specials.
I can think of any more reasons why you should get this supposedly rocker or lifter click. Anyway don't worry too much about inlet valve stem seals, they go hard after a few 1000 miles anyway and it is common for them to break up and fall apart. Never used to fit them on exhaust.
I am not sure of the set up you have exactly form the descriptions but we used to have to spend a bit of time setting up the valve gear when any high lift cam, different rockers were fitted due to the machining tolerances being all over the place. The way we used to get a fairly reasonable pre load was with the use of shims under the rocker pedestals. With the lifters we used to squeeze the oil out of them, install the rockers and a set of shims, then to get an average  40 thou preload we would measure from the top face of the inner part of the lifer to the underside of the retaining circlip, using different size wire gauges. Hope that is clear, I'll try drawing if you like.
We would always get a discrepancy and never always get them to 40 thou but all near enough to run. These engines are so simple to rebuild and set up, we could put them together in a few hours once the machining is done, so either you problem is a very simple one a very big one.
Also someone mentioned the oil booster plate, be very careful and make sure you grind or machine a relief slot/passage in the casting between the 2 chambers, without this you will get over 70 psi with a new tight set up and it is possible to split the oil filter, happened to us a few times. We used to do this set up when the additional oil was needed for turbo charging.

Oil leaks in the inlet valley pan are common, clean everything, make sure faces are clean and use a nice bead of RTV sealant if you can't get the rubber seal to work.

Ken and clan, last call...Stethiscope, finger on rockers or ground each plug wire, while running. roverman.

Dave and Art,

Thanks for the input. Oil pressure does not exceed 55psi, cold start and hot rev. Every conceivable engine running diagnostic has been performed by at least 4 trained mechanics and yours truly. Plug wire are new and
work as designed. Spark plugs are new and all work. No exhaust leaks. No detonation. No missing.

An East Coast Rover Shop owner, who has a blog on his web site, specifically referred to the problem my engine is having, using very much the same descriptors and says the culprits in his cases were pistons. Either a cracked or collapsed piston skirt will cause the exact same phenomena I am experiencing. The pistons are coming out next Tuesday morning and they will be closely inspected and measured as well as the cylinder bores. Since everything else has been ruled out, I am hoping to bring this to a conclusion.

I have not given up on the idea of installing a Ford 302, though it would be more appropriate, politically, and
period wise to have the Rover running right and enjoying a thoroughly British hot rod.

I used to feel that way about it too, but I've come to appreciate an iron block SBB instead. Looks nearly the same though.

JB

The pistons and rods have been removed from the engine and there are no visible signs of anything that could be causing the noise.

However, everything has been sent to the local rebuilder to be measured.

The PO was mis-informed about the rebuild. It was not complete, nor was it a "blue print" job. All the cylinder walls had glazing and the pistons all had wear and scuffing on the upper and lower surfaces as well as carbon buildup along the un-visible piston surfaces. It appears that the "rebuild" was basically a refitting of rings, a very tight re-installation and re-use of the bearings, which showed a fair amount of wear to the copper layer. So, the PO got a "Pig in a Poke", as did I. I guess I should have taken the short block apart, but I trusted the word of the PO, who I have known to be up front and forthright.

All this is very disappointing, as you might imagine. So, once the rotating assembly is spec'd and the cylinders are checked for roundness, we will come up with a plan to either rebuild, look for another BOP or Rover, or move to Plan B: the SBF.

How 'bout a 300 SBB?

JB

Ken, no culprit to be found? Pistons,"correct" direction on rods(off-set)? No cam gear hitting timing cover? Crank thrust  and rod side clearance ok? Pressure check block ? Don't give up. Now you can build it right. roverman.

Ken

Sorry to hear you couldn't find anything, I am not sure if you have checked this or not but we once had a Jag XJ6 4.2 1978 in the shop that had a sound much the same as you describe. We had it to bits a few times and couldn't find a thing. It wasn't till the owner said he had just had a top end overhaul with new valve seats, guides etc we started to get an idea.

Took the head off, heated it in an oven to just above working temp and "clink" the valve guide dropped out.
It wasn't untill the head was really hot and expanded it fell out. During normal running it was moving and the valve was clouting it. Wasn't untill we pressed it out we could see the damage. We couldn't shift it normally untill very hot. The old guide had been pressed out and over size valve guides fitted but the machine shop had cocked up the machining and to compensate for a loose fit had knurled the guide to make it fit tight.

Just a thought mate.

If I could afford it I would come over and have a look but visiting the LeMans classic last weekend cleared me out of funds.

Don't give up.

David

Jim, Art and David,

Thanks for the input. The heads were dis-assembled and heated up in a head rebuilding shop. The rebuilder was familiar with the Rover aluminum head/steel valve seat phenomenon, but these seats did not move, even when pressure was applied. There is NO evidence of any of rotating assembly striking or hitting anything it's not supposed to. That said, it is impossible to see inside the engine when it's running, so...

At this juncture, the bogeyman may be living in one of the piston assemblies. Hopefully, I find that out this week, sometime.

If I decide to abandon the Rover/BOP power plant, I will be strongly considering and SBF; probably the ubiquitous carb aspirated 302.

Cheers.

I have a similar problem with my Ford 302. It was a new crate engine from Ford and made a loud tapping noise when hot from the first time I ran it. The noise apperas when the coolant temperature rises above about 210 degrees (it never exceeds 215 degrees). I have finally practically eliminated the noise by blocking off the exhaust heat passages in the intake manifold. The engine still reaches 210 - 215 degrees, but without the loud noise. I understand that the Rover has a water cooled manifold so this will not help you.

However, one possibility is a leaking exhust - header gasket. Have you checked the header and cylinder head exhaust sealing surfaces for even height and flatness?

Hey Ken, your said the bearings were down to the copper? If so they are badly worn and you have a lot of clearance. In an aluminum block that will make a lot of noise, far more than an iron block. When the oil gets hot and thin this could be the mystery noise. You also said a "tight installation" if you meant rings, possibly the gaps are closing when the engine gets up to temp. This would make the piston drag and exaggerate the bearing issue.

Update:

My response to Roverman's post on June 7 is below:

 Re: Rover 3.5L Oil Starvation?
Posted by: roverman
Date: June 07, 2010 08:32PM

Ken, Does this motor have a"retainer plate" on cam ? Thrust button ? If cam is thrusting forward, 8 lifters will have"reduced "pre-load, and/or chain, sprocket/etc. may be hitting. Good Luck, roverman.

I had sent the car to a local shot 6 weeks ago and the owner is very methodical and thoughtful. He put my car on the middle burner, so to speak, and went through the engine in minute detail. On Tuesday, he pulled the front timing chain cover and discovered that there is NO retainer plate on the cam; referred to by Roverman's June 7 post. Being a neophyte to this particular engine and assembling it from the boxes of parts the previous owner assured me was all I would need to accomplish the task, not mounting a camshaft retainer plate would have occurred to me.

All that said and done, I am still not sure this would be the culprit creating the noise that prompted the engine disassembly and this serial forum posting. The cam chain drive gear, eccentric fuel pump spacer unit and the drive shaft cam chain drive gear all certainly move fore and aft when pulled and pushed by hand. But, would there have been something between the hardened steel camshaft front flange and the engine block under the camshaft retainer plate? And what is a thrust button?

Ken since your engine,(3.5L) did not come with a retainer plate, I believe they first arrived on 4.0L's, you may retrofit. Installing a retainer plate will be considerable work.  A "thrust button", threads into front of cam shaft, rubs against inside of timing cover , and prevents excessive fore/aft movement. Best ones have a needle thrust bearing, so as not to wear the timing cover. Were this the "real culprit" on your engine, it could show "spark scatter", timing variation while holding a constant rpm. and monitoring with a timing light. As previously stated, this also reduces lifter preload on (8) lifters,"possible clatter"? Of course fore/aft movement, increases timing chain and cam/lifter wear. Things wear better, in proper alignment.  Good Luck, roverman.

Art,

When tested and on the road the timing did not seem to be affected by the onset of the "noise" that is the topic of this thread. The engine revved fine, performed well and continued to perform well even with the noise.
There is no physical evidence in the timing chain area of movement or damage or wear. Also, when the crank shaft damper pulley is mounted the lower cam chain gear and oil thrower are nicely confined. I am running an all metal timing gear/chain system and it's new so stretching and wear can be eliminated.

The engine clattering noise seems associated with one cycle of one piston. It is not a noise that could be associated with constant rotation or whirring or grinding. Wouldn't a timing gear moving
around be associated with acceleration or load on the engine. This noise starts at idle once the engine reaches operation temperature. Like this on cold startup: nice healthy V8 rumble, a bit warmer, say, 160F; tick-tick-tick, 175F; click-click-click, 180F; clack-clack-clack, 190F; CLACK!-CLACK!-CLACK!

KEN

Ken, so you had pistons/rods out, new bearings, checked piston,pin,lifter and "all" bearing clearances? All pistons are indexed correctly on rods ? Rods indexed correctly on crank? Engine will make same noise at problem temp., not under load? Dupilcate problem noise,parked, with rear safely in air and applying light load with brakes, while listening with stethiscope ? I can't help but think, some of these suggestions are missed. roverman.

Hi Ken & all @ British V8. I've followed many good threads on this board & thought its time I joined in with advice that hopefully will help nail your problem.

As suggested by another member, I'd take a very critical look at your liners for signs of shift. Your recent post describing the noise increasing incrementally with temperature rise describes exactly what occurs when a liner moves. It may not strike the head & leave witness marks, but move up slightly & click when it hits the lower register in the block on the piston down stroke.

The alloy block transmits noise very differently to cast iron. Once I listened to a noise coming from the bellhousing area that you would have sworn was a loose flywheel or broken crankshaft. Turned out to be the very heavy water pump pulley mounted on 4 5/16 studs used on 84/85 model Range Rovers had fretted under the nylocs & was moving a few thou each way at idle.

One of the members here has a website with some good pictures of how they pinned a Rover block with grubscrews to secure all the sleeves so they can never move again.
I've been working with these engines on a daily basis since 1977. Fantastic powerplants when set up correctly!!

John,

On re-inspection of the tops of the cylinder bores I did notice that the #1 liner top edge was a bit shy of the
block surface(.003-.004"), something the 5 mechanics here do not think is an issue. After reading a number of posts on this forum about liners moving, it was clear that there were problems with the larger displacement and later model engines. I did not see any references to an early model smaller bore engine. I guess anything is possible. At this juncture, there are several possible culprits and a number of hypotheses about the source of the noise. Perhaps it is more than one thing and the result of some "perfect storm" of defects. With the engine apart and no large arrows pointing to exactly what the problem is or problems are, plus the fact that I have been attempting through various means to solve 'something' and move on since November 2009, I am 98% ready to throw in the towel.

Since I am clearly not experienced enough, nor are the local resources, to get this engine back on the road and since there is no clear cause of the noise, I have to make a decision about what to do next.

If I choose to "fix" this particular Rover 3.5L V8, as in, rebuild it, it seems that the cost could exceed what a complete factory rebuilt engine would run, with no guarantee that the "issue" would be solved.

Known issues:

• Scored and ovaled cylinder walls
• Scored pistons with one possibly cracked.
• Main bearings and rod bearings showing wear
• Possible excessive wear on the crank shaft
• Possible excessive wrist pin wear on one piston
• One cylinder sleeve top edge sitting below block deck
• Possible de-vulcanization of the harmonic balancer
• Unidentified source of loud engine noise

It would not be prudent to reassemble this engine with new or refurbished parts and hope the noise has
gone away.

When I bought this project, I got the proverbial "pig in a poke". In retrospect, I probably should have torn down the short block or had it done before final assembly and installation. I, naively, believed the previous owner when he told me the short block had a "blue print rebuild". I can only assume that is what he was told as I have known him for years and don't believe he would knowingly sell me a clunker.

That said, I know there are other "rebuilt" Rover and Buick aluminum block engines out there for sale, but
now that I have been burned by a "rebuilt" with no verifiable provenance, I would be insistent on receipts and a mechanic signed build sheet before I even considered purchasing it.

The part of this equation that is hardest to decide is: do I get another Rover short block or do I move on to
a warranteed Ford factory engine?

Thanks, again, to all who have taken the time to communicate your thoughts and advice on the subject.

Ken

I can feel your frustration, Ken!

I've seen this occurrence on plenty of "small" 3.5 inch bore engines. Probably more-so than later 3.7inch 3.9, 4.0 & 4.6 Litre ones which had their own drama's. Eg block porosity behind sleeves allowing coolant to migrate up the side of the sleeve & into the cyl/combustion chamber. Loose sleeves in early blocks seems to be more of a operator abuse issuse to me, rather than design defect. Virtually every time I've come across it, the engine in question has been driven home with a blown hose or failed water pump, rather than the driver pulling over & calling a tow-truck! Not saying you've ever been guilty of this, but who knows what the engines previous history is.

If I were you, I'd be looking for a late 80's Range Rover 4.2 engine. These are a stroked 3.5. Swap in your Cam, sump & pickup, timing case, inlet. A couple of head gaskets as insurance while you're in the area etc.
 Should be a very cheap intermediate fix & allow you some enjoyment out of the vehicle whilst deciding where to go next.
 No offence to those that have them, but for my money,the light weight Buick/Olds/Rover engine gives the car that "British" feel, which diminishes to some degree when a Chev or Ford is fitted. Furtherest I'd go would be a Buick 300 cast iron cousin like Jim B suggested. Plenty of scope there!

John,

Thanks for the post. Your supposition of a loose sleeve has the highest level of probability among all those offered to date.

After the heads were pulled, I pointed out the recessed sleeve on #1 to the 3 mechanics standing there with me while we attempted to assess the cause of the noise and none seemed impressed by the possibility of the sleeve being the cause.

In review, it makes good sense that a sleeve moving up and down wouldn't start to move until the engine was hot enough to expand enough to allow it. And, would stop moving once the engine was cooled again. Since I do not have a history on the engine, any number of overheating issues could have occurred.

For me, this is an Ah Ha moment!

Now, is there a fix or do I keep looking for a newer engine, as you suggest?

Thanks,

Ken

The last post on this thread:

I picked up the car, with the engine completely disassembled, and brought it to my home garage.

I'll use what parts I need for the next engine. I am staying with Rover.

I have also taken John Caine's advice and purchased a 4.2 liter engine. It has been cleaned and blasted,
cylinders honed with new rings, crank resurfaced, new bearings, new rod bearings, new freeze plugs, heads rebuilt with new guides and seals, new camshaft. Lifter, pushrods, rocker arms and shafts are original. Comes with an Edelbrock 4BBL, Edelbrock intake, new water pump and all accessory brackets and pulleys. The previous owner started an MGB GT V8 project a few years back and abandoned it when he found out all the modifications needed to install the engine.  I bought the engine from a local british car repair shop owner who was supervising the conversion and rebuild. Since I am only interested in the short block, I may offer the unused parts on the Classified section of this forum.

Thanks, again, to everyone who offered insight and advice here.

You can watch videos of assembly and installation of the replacement Rover 3.5 Liter V8 here: http://vimeo.com/kenzmyth/videos